RE: [Texascavers] Need a new harness, any suggestions.
Ryan, Here are some general thoughts. There are a lot of nuances to harnesses than can't be explained in a simple email. Find someone that knows a lot about harnesses and discuss the issue with them and then try some on. The best harness is a redundant harness that fits your body type and is suitable for the type of work you expect to do. Most rock climbing harnesses are not optimized for vertical caving as they have a lot of play in the front attachment point. Having a snug fit with a relatively low point of attachment seems to work well with most vertical caving rappelling and ascending systems. You need enough gear loops to attach your stuff but not hang up when you're caving. I will not use a caving harness with bar tack stitching - while it is strong when new and relatively cheap to sew, bar tacks are a major wear point and the only stitching joint I've actually seen fail under caving conditions (under body weight loading). Bar tacks are very common on climbing harnesses and some caving harnesses. Rock climbing harnesses do not generally receive the wear and abuse that a caving harness does and bar tacks on these harnesses are a little more acceptable. Remember, the amount of thread that goes into a harness wouldn't make a good shoe string. The webbing joints need to be as strong as the webbing which requires a good pattern, enough stitches with the proper thread, correct needle type, etc. The joints on the harness get a lot of wear and can weaken without showing a lot of wear on the webbing. This is why you need to inspect your stitching before and after each use and on both sides of the harness. The thread should pull down into the webbing so you can't feel it when you rub your fingers across the webbing. That is why dense webbings such as seat belt webbing makes a poor choice for harness material. The thread should have the same height or profile as the webbing. If it sticks up, it is prone to abrasion and if it is pulled too tight, it collects dirt and mud and is also prone to wear. The stitching needs to be strong enough when it is new and when it is worn. The attachment point for the harness is a personal issue and somewhat dependent upon what ascending and descending systems you most commonly use. The attachment point should be redundant and allow for the proper orientation of your carabiner or rapid link to optimize use of your rappel device without chaining together biners. The harness should be comfortable and also support you without fear of flipping upside down when hanging from the attachment point. I'm sure others can add more to this discussion. Geary From: Ryan Monjaras [mailto:trog...@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 5:29 PM To: texas cavers Subject: [Texascavers] Need a new harness, any suggestions. Looking to get a new caving harness to replace my rock climbing one. What is best, a GGG seat harness, CMI Cave Master, PMI Viper Harness, Singing Rock Harness, Petzl Super Avanti or Petzl Fractio. Semper Exploro Ryan Monjaras Maverick Grotto Cowtown Grotto DFW Grotto UT Grotto Bexar Grotto (832)754-5778
Re: [Texascavers] Need a new harness, any suggestions.
Ryan, My favorite of all the harnesses I've used is the MTDE Amazonia. It has a very low attachment point, which is important for a frog system. It's from Spain and can be hard to find. I think I ordered my last one from starlessriver.com, a UK retailer. I haven't checked lately to see if any US shops are carrying it now. All the Petzls I've worn had high attachment points and didn't work well for me. The GGG Caver harness is pretty good. Ed On Dec 7, 2011, at 5:29 PM, Ryan Monjaras trog...@hotmail.com wrote: Looking to get a new caving harness to replace my rock climbing one. What is best, a GGG seat harness, CMI Cave Master, PMI Viper Harness, Singing Rock Harness, Petzl Super Avanti or Petzl Fractio. Semper Exploro Ryan Monjaras Maverick Grotto Cowtown Grotto DFW Grotto UT Grotto Bexar Grotto (832)754-5778
RE: [Texascavers] Need a new harness, any suggestions.
Ryan, Here are some general thoughts. There are a lot of nuances to harnesses than can't be explained in a simple email. Find someone that knows a lot about harnesses and discuss the issue with them and then try some on. The best harness is a redundant harness that fits your body type and is suitable for the type of work you expect to do. Most rock climbing harnesses are not optimized for vertical caving as they have a lot of play in the front attachment point. Having a snug fit with a relatively low point of attachment seems to work well with most vertical caving rappelling and ascending systems. You need enough gear loops to attach your stuff but not hang up when you're caving. I will not use a caving harness with bar tack stitching - while it is strong when new and relatively cheap to sew, bar tacks are a major wear point and the only stitching joint I've actually seen fail under caving conditions (under body weight loading). Bar tacks are very common on climbing harnesses and some caving harnesses. Rock climbing harnesses do not generally receive the wear and abuse that a caving harness does and bar tacks on these harnesses are a little more acceptable. Remember, the amount of thread that goes into a harness wouldn't make a good shoe string. The webbing joints need to be as strong as the webbing which requires a good pattern, enough stitches with the proper thread, correct needle type, etc. The joints on the harness get a lot of wear and can weaken without showing a lot of wear on the webbing. This is why you need to inspect your stitching before and after each use and on both sides of the harness. The thread should pull down into the webbing so you can't feel it when you rub your fingers across the webbing. That is why dense webbings such as seat belt webbing makes a poor choice for harness material. The thread should have the same height or profile as the webbing. If it sticks up, it is prone to abrasion and if it is pulled too tight, it collects dirt and mud and is also prone to wear. The stitching needs to be strong enough when it is new and when it is worn. The attachment point for the harness is a personal issue and somewhat dependent upon what ascending and descending systems you most commonly use. The attachment point should be redundant and allow for the proper orientation of your carabiner or rapid link to optimize use of your rappel device without chaining together biners. The harness should be comfortable and also support you without fear of flipping upside down when hanging from the attachment point. I'm sure others can add more to this discussion. Geary From: Ryan Monjaras [mailto:trog...@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 5:29 PM To: texas cavers Subject: [Texascavers] Need a new harness, any suggestions. Looking to get a new caving harness to replace my rock climbing one. What is best, a GGG seat harness, CMI Cave Master, PMI Viper Harness, Singing Rock Harness, Petzl Super Avanti or Petzl Fractio. Semper Exploro Ryan Monjaras Maverick Grotto Cowtown Grotto DFW Grotto UT Grotto Bexar Grotto (832)754-5778
Re: [Texascavers] Need a new harness, any suggestions.
Ryan, My favorite of all the harnesses I've used is the MTDE Amazonia. It has a very low attachment point, which is important for a frog system. It's from Spain and can be hard to find. I think I ordered my last one from starlessriver.com, a UK retailer. I haven't checked lately to see if any US shops are carrying it now. All the Petzls I've worn had high attachment points and didn't work well for me. The GGG Caver harness is pretty good. Ed On Dec 7, 2011, at 5:29 PM, Ryan Monjaras trog...@hotmail.com wrote: Looking to get a new caving harness to replace my rock climbing one. What is best, a GGG seat harness, CMI Cave Master, PMI Viper Harness, Singing Rock Harness, Petzl Super Avanti or Petzl Fractio. Semper Exploro Ryan Monjaras Maverick Grotto Cowtown Grotto DFW Grotto UT Grotto Bexar Grotto (832)754-5778
RE: [Texascavers] Need a new harness, any suggestions.
Ryan, Here are some general thoughts. There are a lot of nuances to harnesses than can't be explained in a simple email. Find someone that knows a lot about harnesses and discuss the issue with them and then try some on. The best harness is a redundant harness that fits your body type and is suitable for the type of work you expect to do. Most rock climbing harnesses are not optimized for vertical caving as they have a lot of play in the front attachment point. Having a snug fit with a relatively low point of attachment seems to work well with most vertical caving rappelling and ascending systems. You need enough gear loops to attach your stuff but not hang up when you're caving. I will not use a caving harness with bar tack stitching - while it is strong when new and relatively cheap to sew, bar tacks are a major wear point and the only stitching joint I've actually seen fail under caving conditions (under body weight loading). Bar tacks are very common on climbing harnesses and some caving harnesses. Rock climbing harnesses do not generally receive the wear and abuse that a caving harness does and bar tacks on these harnesses are a little more acceptable. Remember, the amount of thread that goes into a harness wouldn't make a good shoe string. The webbing joints need to be as strong as the webbing which requires a good pattern, enough stitches with the proper thread, correct needle type, etc. The joints on the harness get a lot of wear and can weaken without showing a lot of wear on the webbing. This is why you need to inspect your stitching before and after each use and on both sides of the harness. The thread should pull down into the webbing so you can't feel it when you rub your fingers across the webbing. That is why dense webbings such as seat belt webbing makes a poor choice for harness material. The thread should have the same height or profile as the webbing. If it sticks up, it is prone to abrasion and if it is pulled too tight, it collects dirt and mud and is also prone to wear. The stitching needs to be strong enough when it is new and when it is worn. The attachment point for the harness is a personal issue and somewhat dependent upon what ascending and descending systems you most commonly use. The attachment point should be redundant and allow for the proper orientation of your carabiner or rapid link to optimize use of your rappel device without chaining together biners. The harness should be comfortable and also support you without fear of flipping upside down when hanging from the attachment point. I'm sure others can add more to this discussion. Geary From: Ryan Monjaras [mailto:trog...@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 5:29 PM To: texas cavers Subject: [Texascavers] Need a new harness, any suggestions. Looking to get a new caving harness to replace my rock climbing one. What is best, a GGG seat harness, CMI Cave Master, PMI Viper Harness, Singing Rock Harness, Petzl Super Avanti or Petzl Fractio. Semper Exploro Ryan Monjaras Maverick Grotto Cowtown Grotto DFW Grotto UT Grotto Bexar Grotto (832)754-5778
Re: [Texascavers] Need a new harness, any suggestions.
Ryan, My favorite of all the harnesses I've used is the MTDE Amazonia. It has a very low attachment point, which is important for a frog system. It's from Spain and can be hard to find. I think I ordered my last one from starlessriver.com, a UK retailer. I haven't checked lately to see if any US shops are carrying it now. All the Petzls I've worn had high attachment points and didn't work well for me. The GGG Caver harness is pretty good. Ed On Dec 7, 2011, at 5:29 PM, Ryan Monjaras trog...@hotmail.com wrote: Looking to get a new caving harness to replace my rock climbing one. What is best, a GGG seat harness, CMI Cave Master, PMI Viper Harness, Singing Rock Harness, Petzl Super Avanti or Petzl Fractio. Semper Exploro Ryan Monjaras Maverick Grotto Cowtown Grotto DFW Grotto UT Grotto Bexar Grotto (832)754-5778
Re: [Texascavers] Need a new harness, any suggestions.
I have the PMI Pit Viper and for a no nonsense harness it has worked great for me, its lightweight and uncomplicated. I have heard some people complain about the lack of padding though it has never been an issue for me On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Ryan Monjaras trog...@hotmail.com wrote: Looking to get a new caving harness to replace my rock climbing one. What is best, a GGG seat harness, CMI Cave Master, PMI Viper Harness, Singing Rock Harness, Petzl Super Avanti or Petzl Fractio. * Semper Exploro Ryan Monjaras* *Maverick Grotto* *Cowtown Grotto* *DFW Grotto* *UT Grotto* *Bexar Grotto* *(832)754-5778*
Re: [Texascavers] Need a new harness, any suggestions.
The CMI Cave Master, PMI Viper, GGG and Petzl Avanti seem to be variations on the same theme. Maybe the routing of the straps makes for different comfort levels between them, but of these I've only used the GGG and Avanti. They were both good harnesses. I've been using the Fractio for years and I find it pretty comfortable, once you adjust it to your body. - Fofo Herman Miller wrote, on 7/12/11 18:29 : I have the PMI Pit Viper and for a no nonsense harness it has worked great for me, its lightweight and uncomplicated. I have heard some people complain about the lack of padding though it has never been an issue for me On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Ryan Monjaras trog...@hotmail.com mailto:trog...@hotmail.com wrote: Looking to get a new caving harness to replace my rock climbing one. What is best, a GGG seat harness, CMI Cave Master, PMI Viper Harness, Singing Rock Harness, Petzl Super Avanti or Petzl Fractio. * Semper Exploro Ryan Monjaras* *Maverick Grotto* *Cowtown Grotto* *DFW Grotto* *UT Grotto* *Bexar Grotto* *(832)754-5778 tel:%28832%29754-5778* - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Need a new harness, any suggestions.
I have the PMI Pit Viper and for a no nonsense harness it has worked great for me, its lightweight and uncomplicated. I have heard some people complain about the lack of padding though it has never been an issue for me On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Ryan Monjaras trog...@hotmail.com wrote: Looking to get a new caving harness to replace my rock climbing one. What is best, a GGG seat harness, CMI Cave Master, PMI Viper Harness, Singing Rock Harness, Petzl Super Avanti or Petzl Fractio. * Semper Exploro Ryan Monjaras* *Maverick Grotto* *Cowtown Grotto* *DFW Grotto* *UT Grotto* *Bexar Grotto* *(832)754-5778*
Re: [Texascavers] Need a new harness, any suggestions.
The CMI Cave Master, PMI Viper, GGG and Petzl Avanti seem to be variations on the same theme. Maybe the routing of the straps makes for different comfort levels between them, but of these I've only used the GGG and Avanti. They were both good harnesses. I've been using the Fractio for years and I find it pretty comfortable, once you adjust it to your body. - Fofo Herman Miller wrote, on 7/12/11 18:29 : I have the PMI Pit Viper and for a no nonsense harness it has worked great for me, its lightweight and uncomplicated. I have heard some people complain about the lack of padding though it has never been an issue for me On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Ryan Monjaras trog...@hotmail.com mailto:trog...@hotmail.com wrote: Looking to get a new caving harness to replace my rock climbing one. What is best, a GGG seat harness, CMI Cave Master, PMI Viper Harness, Singing Rock Harness, Petzl Super Avanti or Petzl Fractio. * Semper Exploro Ryan Monjaras* *Maverick Grotto* *Cowtown Grotto* *DFW Grotto* *UT Grotto* *Bexar Grotto* *(832)754-5778 tel:%28832%29754-5778* - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Need a new harness, any suggestions.
I have the PMI Pit Viper and for a no nonsense harness it has worked great for me, its lightweight and uncomplicated. I have heard some people complain about the lack of padding though it has never been an issue for me On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Ryan Monjaras trog...@hotmail.com wrote: Looking to get a new caving harness to replace my rock climbing one. What is best, a GGG seat harness, CMI Cave Master, PMI Viper Harness, Singing Rock Harness, Petzl Super Avanti or Petzl Fractio. * Semper Exploro Ryan Monjaras* *Maverick Grotto* *Cowtown Grotto* *DFW Grotto* *UT Grotto* *Bexar Grotto* *(832)754-5778*
Re: [Texascavers] Need a new harness, any suggestions.
The CMI Cave Master, PMI Viper, GGG and Petzl Avanti seem to be variations on the same theme. Maybe the routing of the straps makes for different comfort levels between them, but of these I've only used the GGG and Avanti. They were both good harnesses. I've been using the Fractio for years and I find it pretty comfortable, once you adjust it to your body. - Fofo Herman Miller wrote, on 7/12/11 18:29 : I have the PMI Pit Viper and for a no nonsense harness it has worked great for me, its lightweight and uncomplicated. I have heard some people complain about the lack of padding though it has never been an issue for me On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Ryan Monjaras trog...@hotmail.com mailto:trog...@hotmail.com wrote: Looking to get a new caving harness to replace my rock climbing one. What is best, a GGG seat harness, CMI Cave Master, PMI Viper Harness, Singing Rock Harness, Petzl Super Avanti or Petzl Fractio. * Semper Exploro Ryan Monjaras* *Maverick Grotto* *Cowtown Grotto* *DFW Grotto* *UT Grotto* *Bexar Grotto* *(832)754-5778 tel:%28832%29754-5778* - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
