[tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mark S., TonyM, Jan & Richard WS

I just wanted to comment back into this thread--since I left my last posts 
kinda hanging--and then things opened in a somewhat different direction 
that I'd anticipated.

I want to give a big thank you to Mark S. who did a lot to help us, 
probably more than he realises, grasp better the direction needed. 

In another thread, BJ has given the basic solution to t*he MARKUP problem* 
by writing a regex component for his FLEXITYPE PLUGIN 
. This avoids the problems with 
Skeeve's useful, but rather dangerous route.

I have a few specific comments that may be of interest to you ...

1 - Mark S.' FOUNTAIN PLUGIN 
 
opened my eyes to the fact that Fountain is only really "5%" explicit 
markup. Its real brilliance lays in* interpreting IMPLICIT markup from the 
simple plain text* layout of screenplays. 

I did tests throwing into Mark's gizmo the whole script for Apocalypse Now 
Redux. It got near everything in the layout correct without a single added 
piece of markup.  That's seriously impressive.

2 - This has completely changed my view of Fountain--as well as what is 
needed for formatting screenplays in TW.

3 - Now that BJ has given a workable, safe, way to "preparse" using regular 
expressions, without needing any direct JavaScript coding, I'm now working 
on a similar approach as (1) for screenplays in TW. Its just a matter of 
knowing what Regexes to use & the Fountain Library on Github gives many of 
them. So I'm hopeful I can make something good enough for most practical 
purposes.

4 - FWIW, what became clear to me, personally, was that in in this thread I 
was slightly blurring up  TWO things, albeit related: (a) a *delimited 
issue with screenplay formatting* and (b) *a more generic way to have a 
kind of "Tiddy Regex Workshop"* through which you could develop NEW ways of 
marking-up text without having to deal with the inherently complex TW core 
parser system (for which I'd be worse than stupid at). With BJ's plugin 
that issue is largely now manageable.

My next step is to finish-up creating a basic markup for screenplays. 

The step after that will be to turn towards the issue of what is an  
APPROPRIATE INTERFACE for editing screenplay Tiddlers?  Jan has done quite 
some work on this already. I'm hopeful its not going to be quite so 
complicated moving into that as sorting through to now was.

Things are looking up.

Best wishes
Josiah

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Other things I'll comment on by way of demonstration when I got them 
> working well enough. I'm slow...
>

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Re: [tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jan

Jan's storywriting.tiddlyspot.com 
>

I looked at it. Its a well thought through schema. So an objective needs to 
be to HOW to support it.

Adding (Screeve) regex to it to help the layout is currently dangerous. 
Unfortunately its NOT really workable as (under the surface) it creates 
havoc in the text/vnd.tiddlywiki content type. Whether it could be a global 
macro or a Tiddler local one the same destructive issue arises. Its not a 
real solution.

The alternate Fountain plugin Mark S. is trying to help us with I don't 
think could easily work with what you need either. BUT I will comment on 
that in more detail later.

Best wishes
Josiah

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Re: [tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

[Jan]

Dear Mark, dear Josiah


The HTML/iframe approach I used was much simpler, because all I had to 
do was pass the frame the Markup text converted by Fountain.js to HTML 
(plus a little CSS up front). If the results of that approach are 
adequate (e.g. you don't hate iframe rendering) then I can imagine a 
more universal syntax approach. Maybe the top of the page would have 
instructions:


#REG/\.s\s(.+)$/\1
#REG/\.r\s(.+)$/\2
#REGG/something-i-want-to-replace-globally/\1


I haven't worked out the full syntax obviously. It would be something 
like Skeeve's pragma thing, but without the controversy since we're 
not trying the really complicated approach of modifying the parser 
(which is still something like voodoo magic to me).




I would love to have that "something-i-want-to-replace-globally"-thing 
working on the text of some filtered tiddlers...


I made a beta of the screenwriting-thing i am working on to make you 
understand wht I am after...(The UI is in german i use it for my theatre 
class at school...I remember you desired some German Josiah...It can be 
changed by replacing the dictionaryTiddler)


It can be found at storywriting.tiddlyspot.com

It has also got Textcompletition, A scene Manager (behind the 
curtains...), role-alias-cast manager and so forth. The formating 
changes between mobile-layout (because my pupils use their phone to read 
the texts) and a print/dektop one. Role-names are transcluded and the 
rolemanager in the sidebar detect which roles are used but not defined 
yet. A completition of rolenames while typing can be activated with the 
button...


Please have a look at it...
Jan




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[tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mark, Jan, TonyM & all

Other things I'll comment on by way of demonstration when I got them 
working well enough. I'm slow, but hopefully only be a couple more days. 

Meanwhile, a short comment on *pagination* ... 

Marks S. : I don't understand how pages can be dynamically calculated to be 
> 1min=1page, since a single direction item might take up more than a minute. 
>

I know it looks insane of first look. But it IS a strong convention in 
film-making. "The page" is fundamental to production timing & costing. For 
sure 1 minute rarely equates directly to the one page per minute idealised 
cinematic time. But the number of pages in a screenplay DOES relate to that 
very tightly. IF you submitted a 30 page script for a 90 minute movie (i.e. 
one with longer shots) it would go in the bin post-haste. What the writer 
has to do is adjust to the format. It makes sense in that if you have long 
shots with little dialogue *you have to provide more directorial 
description*. So, in actuality it evens out. 

Mark S.: I would think that the final pagination would best be handled in 
> an application designed for that task. I'm really skeptical of getting 
> browser-based automatic pagination to work. Is there a precedent?


I haven't seen anything that could act as a model. But I do wonder if CSS 
might be able to do it. One of the key things about screenplays is they use 
EXACT layout so maybe a CSS auto-numbering of some kind might be possible?  

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

[TonyM]

Jan et al,

It seems to me there is three requirements

   1. Permit the Writing of scripts with the required elements
   2. Permit the formatted display of scripts
   3. Permit export of the scripts in a standard format

There is no reason for all three to be in the one solution. Why not use 
tiddlywiki to excel at 1 and 2 above, then provide an exporter or display 
that presents a standards formatted view (not display rendered) which can 
then be exported to plan text files or other fountain standard readers.


Of course Format 1 should resemble Format 3 to assist people familiar with 
format 3 but the point is it need not be identical, if rendering it in 
format 3 is simple.


What ever the formatting techniques you use to implement the display of 1 
in format 2 should equally be able to be designed to display of 1 in format 
3.


Just some food for thought



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[tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Hi @TiddlyTweeter, Jan, et al,

1 - The question of HARD-CODING v. coding that enables ANY system of markup 
> to be used at will. 
>
>
Yes -- that's why I posted here -- avoiding those issues ;-)
 

> 5 - I guess what I am getting at is a more GENERIC process that utilises 
> RegEx via a global macro (limited to a new Tiddler type to prevent it 
> "eating-my-wiki"?) 
>
>
A macro? I can imagine a macro that you pass your text and your RegEx rules 
and it outputs HTML-ized text that you then modify with CSS.

Is that better or worse than a parser (or pseudo parser) that allows you to 
see the effect of your text in the preview window as you work?

My MAIN point is I DO NOT think this is about yet another fixed, 
> hard-encoded markup. Though being able to generate schema that appear 
> hard-coded could be a big plus? Maybe I'm an idiot? :-)  
>

But this thread was. At least at the start. Sometimes it's easiest to start 
with specifics and then work your way outwards. 


One of the minor issues *with both WikiText markup & Fountain markup* (!, 
> @, # etc) is that you can't just pass it to CSS because CSS class names 
> only accept alpha-numerics. Its not a big deal but its not as easy as 
> using, say, start of line markers like this 
>
>
>
> * :s = scene :a = act*
>
>
Elaborate. I'm not sure what you mean by "pass it to CSS".


If "markup"  were in the form (start of line) ...
>
>
> *:a*
> or
> *:aa*
>
>
What would the expected output of these markup tokens be? Would they be 
line-based, or apply to the entire MSS ?


Fountain markup is oriented to WHOLE SCRIPTS. It has NO CONCEPT of what *WE* 
> do, which is to be able to work "from FRAGMENTS to WHOLES".
>
> Some of the things that be-devil Fountain *we* can probably solve, 
> eventually (after sweat), much better. 
>
> *Like WHAT IS A PAGE? *
>
> Fountain hard-codes pages as its only method. *That is unworkable* until 
> you have finished writing your script (unless you are an expert at counting 
> 57 lines BEFORE rendering---i.e. figure out how everything will 
> wrap--impossible). 
>
> But PAGE NUMBERS are very important in movie scripts (because 1 page = 1 
> minute of film). They need to be DYNAMICALLY calculated whilst WRITING so 
> you know WHAT timing you have. 
>

My assumption is that something like Fountain is useful to help a writer 
see how their formatting is shaping up as they work. TW shines at allowing 
an author to write bits and pieces of a work at a time distraction-free and 
then aggregating the material further down the road. 

I don't understand how pages can be dynamically calculated to be 
1min=1page, since a single direction item might take up more than a minute. 
In any event, I would think that the final pagination would best be handled 
in an application designed for that task. I'm really skeptical of getting 
browser-based automatic pagination to work. Is there a precedent?

But IF you do excess formatting, not in the conservative standard, its used 
> as a reason to dump your application.
>

So this explains why, with 50,000 new scripts submitted every year, we keep 
getting Batman and Spiderman origination stories -- they were the only ones 
with the properly formatted scripts!

Let me explain about the way parsing works in TW. With standard parsing, 
it's not a matter of simple regular expression replacement. What happens is 
that regular expressions are used to prise out bits of string from the 
working text. The strings are analyzed by code logic and then used to build 
up a JSON-like internal tree. 

The HTML/iframe approach I used was much simpler, because all I had to do 
was pass the frame the Markup text converted by Fountain.js to HTML (plus a 
little CSS up front). If the results of that approach are adequate (e.g. 
you don't hate iframe rendering) then I can imagine a more universal syntax 
approach. Maybe the top of the page would have instructions:

#REG/\.s\s(.+)$/\1
> #REG/\.r\s(.+)$/\2
> #REGG/something-i-want-to-replace-globally/\1
>

I haven't worked out the full syntax obviously. It would be something like 
Skeeve's pragma thing, but without the controversy since we're not trying 
the really complicated approach of modifying the parser (which is still 
something like voodoo magic to me).

All for now,
Mark

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[tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mark S. & Jan

*Just, another, "bits-n-pieces" note.*

Fountain markup is oriented to WHOLE SCRIPTS. It has NO CONCEPT of what *WE* 
do, which is to be able to be able to work "from FRAGMENTS to WHOLES".

Some of the things that be-devil Fountain *we* can probably solve, 
eventually (after sweat), much better. 

*Like WHAT IS A PAGE? *

Fountain hard-codes pages as its only method. *That is unworkable* until 
you have finished writing your script (unless you are an expert at counting 
57 lines BEFORE rendering---i.e. figure out how everything will 
wrap--impossible). 

But PAGE NUMBERS are very important in movie scripts (because 1 page = 1 
minute of film). They need to be DYNAMICALLY calculated whilst WRITING so 
you know WHAT timing you have. 

Once the script is finished they need to be STATICALLY FIXED.

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mark S. & Jan

Just a "bits-n-pieces" note ...

... that the CSS that Fountain uses BREAKS the more conservative HOLLYWOOD 
STANDARD. 

 *If 
you are writing a screenplay for actual submission to a production company* 
you really should use the CONSERVATIVE standard to be on the safe side. 

The film industry will tell you IF they need any other formatting. But IF 
you do excess formatting, not in the conservative standard, its used as a 
reason to dump your application.

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mark S. & Jan

Another "bits-n-pieces" note ...

If "markup"  were in the form (start of line) ...


*:a*
or


*:aa*
It would allow for over 7,000 unique combinations of "markup" code. This 
could open the way to precision layout for multiple types of manuscript ... 
not just screenplays, but* also novels, legal documents, poetry, and that 
diary format you spent 5 years developing*

If one added a "qualifier" after a second colon you could go further still 
...

*:s:3  *(scene 3)
*:pn:67*  (page number 67)

I'm NOT wedded to these ideas. Just in search of a MINIMALIST, FLEXIBLE 
ORTHOGRAPHY that RegEx can understand in a millisecond.

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mark S. & Jan

One of the minor issues *with both WikiText markup & Fountain markup* (!, 
@, # etc) is that you can't just pass it to CSS because CSS class names 
only accept alpha-numerics. Its not a big deal but its not as easy as 
using, say, start of line markers like this 



* :s = scene :a = act*

With those you can use RegEx to capture the "s" or "a" very simply and pass 
them directly, with fewer steps, to a RegEx replace ...

CONTENT

CONTENT

Just a "bits-n-pieces" note ...

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mark (& Jan)

Mark S: A start. I suppose the use of iFrame makes it unusable. Trouble 
> feeding it CSS without hard-coding.
>

Mark S: A beginning wrapper for Fountain. Not quite sure if there's still 
> interest. Oh well.


Oops. Forgot to mention. Use tiddler type text/fountain on Fountain markup 
> tiddlers.
>

I'm *very much interested* in your interest in this--since you understand 
the underlying mechanisms I don't.

Let me pre-empt myself---I AM working on some demos that illustrate, I 
hope, the issues---by making a few points that in my slowness I will fairly 
soon hopefully be able to show...

1 - The question of HARD-CODING v. coding that enables ANY system of markup 
to be used at will. 

2 - In fact, I'm not sure that "markup" is quite the right word needed. I 
suspect what is needed is more like a "*text transformer*" that is 
completely agnostic about whether "markup" is present or not.

3 - A mechanism that will allow AD-HOC "markup"---as well as RegEx 
transformations that require NO markup at all. The "intelligence" of RegEx 
can take you a long way.

4 - A clear separation of the "engine of change" from CSS "styling".

5 - I guess what I am getting at is a more GENERIC process that utilises 
RegEx via a global macro (limited to a new Tiddler type to prevent it 
"eating-my-wiki"?) 

6 - In my fantasy the type could be ...



*text/vnd.tiddlywiki.mss*
Where "mss" stands for "manuscript/s" ... 

 --- 'MSS... the original handwritten or typed version of a book, article, 
etc, as submitted by an author for publication'
 --- 'They appear to have fallen, with other *MSS.*, into the hands of his 
executor.' 
 --- 'There are other *MSS.*, but they are all either mutilated or of much 
later date.'

Articulating what I am getting at is not so easy so *please ask where 
anything is unclear.* I have near finished demos of using the SAME MARKUP 
to present a script as both a Stage Play & a Screenplay. I hope to get it 
done & show-able subito. 

My MAIN point is I DO NOT think this is about yet another fixed, 
hard-encoded markup. Though being able to generate schema that appear 
hard-coded could be a big plus? Maybe I'm an idiot? :-)  

Let me emphasise that your just out Fountain Markup gizmo looks interesting 
& very useful and I'm gonna play with it today. I don't want to sound like 
I am knocking that in any way, I'm not. 

Very best wishes
Josiah

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[tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Oops. Forgot to mention. Use tiddler type text/fountain on Fountain markup 
tiddlers.

On Sunday, September 17, 2017 at 4:04:32 PM UTC-7, Mark S. wrote:
>
> A beginning wrapper for Fountain. Not quite sure if there's still 
> interest. Oh well.
>
> I may not have included all the css classes to render every situation that 
> Fountain can handle. But you can write over the sample CSS file to expand 
> it's repertoire.  
>
> This uses an iframe wrapper rather than a direct TW-like rendering because 
> the Fountain.js library makes HTML fairly easy but tokenizing is difficult. 
> It hands you a load of tokens that you would have to map somehow into the 
> TW tree, without knowing what the various tokens represent. Ach. Enough 
> techno-babble.
>
> Mark  
>
> On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 6:44:44 AM UTC-7, Jan wrote:
>>
>> Hi all, 
>> I am working on a tool for screenwriting (So far in german but with a 
>> languageTiddler to configure: http://storywriting.tiddlyspot.com/) 
>> The aim should be managing ideas, roles and storylines and of course 
>> formatting Wikitext  as a screenplay. 
>> After hours of trying to adapt the normal rules and getting into an 
>> awfull mess I finally decided I should follow an Idea brought up by BJ 
>> and Josiah and implement 
>> the fountain library https://fountain.io/ 
>> Is there anyone who has done this already? 
>> At the moment I got no clue how this could be achieved. 
>>
>> Yours Jan 
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

[Jan]

Hi Mark,
of course we are interested. But how do we get this to work?
Tag the Fountain-Tiddlers with a special Tag?

Yours Jan



Am 18.09.2017 um 01:04 schrieb 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki:
A beginning wrapper for Fountain. Not quite sure if there's still 
interest. Oh well.


I may not have included all the css classes to render every situation 
that Fountain can handle. But you can write over the sample CSS file 
to expand it's repertoire.


This uses an iframe wrapper rather than a direct TW-like rendering 
because the Fountain.js library makes HTML fairly easy but tokenizing 
is difficult. It hands you a load of tokens that you would have to map 
somehow into the TW tree, without knowing what the various tokens 
represent. Ach. Enough techno-babble.


Mark

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 6:44:44 AM UTC-7, Jan wrote:

Hi all,
I am working on a tool for screenwriting (So far in german but with a
languageTiddler to configure: http://storywriting.tiddlyspot.com/
)
The aim should be managing ideas, roles and storylines and of course
formatting Wikitext  as a screenplay.
After hours of trying to adapt the normal rules and getting into an
awfull mess I finally decided I should follow an Idea brought up
by BJ
and Josiah and implement
the fountain library https://fountain.io/
Is there anyone who has done this already?
At the moment I got no clue how this could be achieved.

Yours Jan


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[tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

A beginning wrapper for Fountain. Not quite sure if there's still interest. 
Oh well.

I may not have included all the css classes to render every situation that 
Fountain can handle. But you can write over the sample CSS file to expand 
it's repertoire.  

This uses an iframe wrapper rather than a direct TW-like rendering because 
the Fountain.js library makes HTML fairly easy but tokenizing is difficult. 
It hands you a load of tokens that you would have to map somehow into the 
TW tree, without knowing what the various tokens represent. Ach. Enough 
techno-babble.

Mark  

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 6:44:44 AM UTC-7, Jan wrote:
>
> Hi all, 
> I am working on a tool for screenwriting (So far in german but with a 
> languageTiddler to configure: http://storywriting.tiddlyspot.com/) 
> The aim should be managing ideas, roles and storylines and of course 
> formatting Wikitext  as a screenplay. 
> After hours of trying to adapt the normal rules and getting into an 
> awfull mess I finally decided I should follow an Idea brought up by BJ 
> and Josiah and implement 
> the fountain library https://fountain.io/ 
> Is there anyone who has done this already? 
> At the moment I got no clue how this could be achieved. 
>
> Yours Jan 
>
>
>

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fountain-plugin-1.0.2.json
Description: application/json

[tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

A start. I suppose the use of iFrame makes it unusable. Trouble feeding it 
CSS without hard-coding. Maybe get back to it in a couple days.

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[tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jan

Just a footnote that the Fountain parser, though good, has concepts behind 
it that are not fully compliant with the more conservative HOLLYWOOD 
STANDARD 
.
 


Because of the way the film industry works its, IMO, better to embrace the 
"Hollywood standard". You can't really go wrong with that.

For example, 

   - Fountain permits complex emphasis (bold, italics, underline)--but most 
   real screenplays still ONLY permit *underline* for emphasis. 
   - Fountain's idea of "Action" is rather crude. Its a kinda of bucket 
   that anything goes into that nothing else deals with.
   - Their idea of what is a heading / scene / slug is very crude. A slug 
   could be "WATCH ON TABLE" ... their markup could not get that unless you 
   forced it ... 
   - Their Transitions seem all right aligned. Some transitions should be 
   left aligned.
   - Their numbering of scenes does not make clear that scene numbering 
   should ONLY be done in SHOOTING scripts, and even then not in the way they 
   present it. They blur up "shooting scripts" and basic "speculative 
   screenplays".
   
I think its to do with how Fountain evolved. I think its more complex than 
it needs to be to enable good markup. Declarative starting markup (what 
they call "forced") looks like the simplest way to go. BUT Fountain really 
has helped understand HOW to auto-format screenplays.


Best wishes

Josiah

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Re: [tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao RW Smith

Totally agree with you. Only HALF the problem is format. The other half is 
WHAT is the best way to EDIT this?

Movie screenplays are a great test case because of the strictness of their 
form its possible to define and explore needs quite precisely.  

Best wishes
Josiah
 

> RichardWilliamSmith wrote: 

One place that i think there's room for user innovation in TW, as yet 
> untapped, is in modifying the editing experience and I think that a 
> playwriting template is potentially an interesting application. I hope 
> you'll share what you make so that we can all see/help.


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Re: [tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jan

Do lists come into this? As far as I can see all markup for screenplays is 
"horizontal". Lists involve nesting. I can't see the need for it in 
screenplay markup.

Best wishes
Josiah

Jan wrote:
The only problem i see is that in the normal parsing behaviour lists are 
broken if they are not preceded by other list items or an empty line

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Re: [tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

[Jan]

Hi Richard, hi Josiah,
I think I will continue my efforts then.
Seeing the syntax fountain uses, it should be the smartest way to do it 
interpreting "action" "charakter" etc as list-items and define a special 
format for them...because you do not have to close them.


The only problem i see is that in the normal parsing behaviour lists are 
broken if they are not preceded by other list items or an empty line
Do you think we could we change that behaviour in the 
$:/core/modules/parsers/wikiparser/rules/list.js?


Yours Jan





Am 29.08.2017 um 12:28 schrieb @TiddlyTweeter:

Ciao Jan

I looked more closely at Fountain Syntax.

It might be possible, I think, to do a reduced, but still effective, 
simpler subset in a TW markup. Its basically using regular expressions.


The Fountain *forced* syntax is very simple. Lines starting with 
special characters get converted in a consistent way. This means the 
parser does not to have to make "guesses" the more complex method 
uses. The minimal small "forced" set is only this ...


. = Scene Heading

! = Action

@ = Character

> = Transition

Character is the most complex because its a block, not just a line, 
i.e. its Character name plus dialogue, and sometimes parenthetic comments.


My point is that it might be just as easy, if not easier, to achieve 
directly in TW, rather than import a library.


Just thoughts
Josiah

On Monday, 28 August 2017 22:40:35 UTC+2, Jan wrote:

Hi Josiah,
fountain (at least as it seems to me) is a markuplanguage with a
freeware .js. Hopfully it could be implemented like markup is in
the new release, some features are already very similar.
http://bjtools.tiddlyspot.com/#%24%3A%2Fplugins%2Fbj%2Fmarkdownlike%2Freadme


There are implementations for libre-office and mediawiki.

Developping the story of course will be a task for TW.

Yours Jan


Am 28.08.2017 um 17:26 schrieb @TiddlyTweeter:

I feel for you

Its a lot more difficult than it first looks.

The strictness of the screenplay form is both what is good about
it and challenging.

I'm incapable of helping you with code. However I can help with
conceptualisation of how to think about screenplays.

In my own thinking they are a mix of TWO fundamentally different
types of things.

A script is a crossing of "vertical" sections (act, scene etc)
and "horizontal" components that form the "content"  -- Dialogue,
Direction, Actions, Scene instructions.

Whilst its relatively easy to think about Tiddlers to create the
"vertical aspect" its not at all easy to conceptualise how to
most appropriately do the "horizontal" content. Should they be
separate Tiddlers? Or just Boilerplate text?

Some cases bring out more clearly the needs. For instance, would
you need to be able to extract ALL but ONLY the dialogue of Eve?
To be able to do that all Eve's dialogue would need to be in
Tiddlers OR you gonna have to develop very smart Regular
Expressions to extract it. The same applies to Scene Setting that
Executive Producers &  DPs would need.

My feeling now about Fountain is its excellent if you going for
the Regular Expressions extraction method. TW can actually do
much more than Fountain. I think the issue is getting the right
conceptual model to start from.

Just thoughts


On Monday, 28 August 2017 15:44:44 UTC+2, Jan wrote:

Hi all,
I am working on a tool for screenwriting (So far in german
but with a
languageTiddler to configure:
http://storywriting.tiddlyspot.com/
)
The aim should be managing ideas, roles and storylines and of
course
formatting Wikitext  as a screenplay.
After hours of trying to adapt the normal rules and getting
into an
awfull mess I finally decided I should follow an Idea brought
up by BJ
and Josiah and implement
the fountain library https://fountain.io/
Is there anyone who has done this already?
At the moment I got no clue how this could be achieved.

Yours Jan


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Re: [tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

[RichardWilliamSmith]

Hi Jan,

I'll just echo what Josiah has said and say that I think you can actually 
do a better job with tiddlywiki than you could with that library, just 
because Tiddlywiki already has mechanisms for handling lots of tiny bits of 
content, knowing what order to put them in and knowing what kind of thing 
they are. You might not even really need the idea of 'markup' to denote the 
role that a particular fragment plays because you can set your own meta 
data.

Much more important is how you would actually want to use the system once 
you have it. In my opinion, you should try to specify what operations you 
would like to be able to perform and hence what data structure you 
want/need to use to represent a 'work'. 

What I mean is that representing a play and then rendering it is quite 
straightforward - (I did it with some of Shakespeare's plays when I was 
playing with how to structure large numbers of tiddlers) but the key I 
think is to say what controls a writer needs when they are writing a 
screenplay. For example, you probably want to be able to easily edit the 
actual text of a line, add a new line etc. but it's probably not so 
important to be able to toggle a piece of content from being a line of 
dialogue to being a scene heading, because that isn't something you'd 
commonly do.

One place that i think there's room for user innovation in TW, as yet 
untapped, is in modifying the editing experience and I think that a 
playwriting template is potentially an interesting application. I hope 
you'll share what you make so that we can all see/help.

Regards,
Richard


On Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 8:28:41 PM UTC+10, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Ciao Jan
>
> I looked more closely at Fountain Syntax.
>
> It might be possible, I think, to do a reduced, but still effective, 
> simpler subset in a TW markup. Its basically using regular expressions.
>
> The Fountain *forced* syntax is very simple. Lines starting with special 
> characters get converted in a consistent way. This means the parser does 
> not to have to make "guesses" the more complex method uses. The minimal 
> small "forced" set is only this ...
>
> . = Scene Heading
>
> ! = Action
>
> @ = Character
>
> > = Transition
>
> Character is the most complex because its a block, not just a line, i.e. 
> its Character name plus dialogue, and sometimes parenthetic comments.
>
> My point is that it might be just as easy, if not easier, to achieve 
> directly in TW, rather than import a library.
>
> Just thoughts
> Josiah
>
> On Monday, 28 August 2017 22:40:35 UTC+2, Jan wrote:
>>
>> Hi Josiah,
>> fountain (at least as it seems to me) is a markuplanguage with a freeware 
>> .js. Hopfully it could be implemented like markup is in the new release, 
>> some features are already very similar.
>>
>> http://bjtools.tiddlyspot.com/#%24%3A%2Fplugins%2Fbj%2Fmarkdownlike%2Freadme
>> There are implementations for libre-office and mediawiki.
>>
>> Developping the story of course will be a task for TW.
>>
>> Yours Jan
>>
>>
>> Am 28.08.2017 um 17:26 schrieb @TiddlyTweeter:
>>
>> I feel for you
>>
>> Its a lot more difficult than it first looks.
>>
>> The strictness of the screenplay form is both what is good about it and 
>> challenging.
>>
>> I'm incapable of helping you with code. However I can help with 
>> conceptualisation of how to think about screenplays.
>>
>> In my own thinking they are a mix of TWO fundamentally different types of 
>> things. 
>>
>> A script is a crossing of "vertical" sections (act, scene etc) and 
>> "horizontal" components that form the "content"  -- Dialogue, Direction, 
>> Actions, Scene instructions.
>>
>> Whilst its relatively easy to think about Tiddlers to create the 
>> "vertical aspect" its not at all easy to conceptualise how to most 
>> appropriately do the "horizontal" content. Should they be separate 
>> Tiddlers? Or just Boilerplate text?
>>
>> Some cases bring out more clearly the needs. For instance, would you need 
>> to be able to extract ALL but ONLY the dialogue of Eve? To be able to do 
>> that all Eve's dialogue would need to be in Tiddlers OR you gonna have to 
>> develop very smart Regular Expressions to extract it. The same applies to 
>> Scene Setting that Executive Producers &  DPs would need. 
>>
>> My feeling now about Fountain is its excellent if you going for the 
>> Regular Expressions extraction method. TW can actually do much more than 
>> Fountain. I think the issue is getting the right conceptual model to start 
>> from.
>>
>> Just thoughts
>>
>>
>> On Monday, 28 August 2017 15:44:44 UTC+2, Jan wrote: 
>>>
>>> Hi all, 
>>> I am working on a tool for screenwriting (So far in german but with a 
>>> languageTiddler to configure: http://storywriting.tiddlyspot.com/) 
>>> The aim should be managing ideas, roles and storylines and of course 
>>> formatting Wikitext  as a screenplay. 
>>> After hours of trying to adapt the normal rules and getting into an 
>>> awfull mess I finally decided I should follow an I

Re: [tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jan

I looked more closely at Fountain Syntax.

It might be possible, I think, to do a reduced, but still effective, 
simpler subset in a TW markup. Its basically using regular expressions.

The Fountain *forced* syntax is very simple. Lines starting with special 
characters get converted in a consistent way. This means the parser does 
not to have to make "guesses" the more complex method uses. The minimal 
small "forced" set is only this ...

. = Scene Heading

! = Action

@ = Character

> = Transition

Character is the most complex because its a block, not just a line, i.e. 
its Character name plus dialogue, and sometimes parenthetic comments.

My point is that it might be just as easy, if not easier, to achieve 
directly in TW, rather than import a library.

Just thoughts
Josiah

On Monday, 28 August 2017 22:40:35 UTC+2, Jan wrote:
>
> Hi Josiah,
> fountain (at least as it seems to me) is a markuplanguage with a freeware 
> .js. Hopfully it could be implemented like markup is in the new release, 
> some features are already very similar.
>
> http://bjtools.tiddlyspot.com/#%24%3A%2Fplugins%2Fbj%2Fmarkdownlike%2Freadme
> There are implementations for libre-office and mediawiki.
>
> Developping the story of course will be a task for TW.
>
> Yours Jan
>
>
> Am 28.08.2017 um 17:26 schrieb @TiddlyTweeter:
>
> I feel for you
>
> Its a lot more difficult than it first looks.
>
> The strictness of the screenplay form is both what is good about it and 
> challenging.
>
> I'm incapable of helping you with code. However I can help with 
> conceptualisation of how to think about screenplays.
>
> In my own thinking they are a mix of TWO fundamentally different types of 
> things. 
>
> A script is a crossing of "vertical" sections (act, scene etc) and 
> "horizontal" components that form the "content"  -- Dialogue, Direction, 
> Actions, Scene instructions.
>
> Whilst its relatively easy to think about Tiddlers to create the "vertical 
> aspect" its not at all easy to conceptualise how to most appropriately do 
> the "horizontal" content. Should they be separate Tiddlers? Or just 
> Boilerplate text?
>
> Some cases bring out more clearly the needs. For instance, would you need 
> to be able to extract ALL but ONLY the dialogue of Eve? To be able to do 
> that all Eve's dialogue would need to be in Tiddlers OR you gonna have to 
> develop very smart Regular Expressions to extract it. The same applies to 
> Scene Setting that Executive Producers &  DPs would need. 
>
> My feeling now about Fountain is its excellent if you going for the 
> Regular Expressions extraction method. TW can actually do much more than 
> Fountain. I think the issue is getting the right conceptual model to start 
> from.
>
> Just thoughts
>
>
> On Monday, 28 August 2017 15:44:44 UTC+2, Jan wrote: 
>>
>> Hi all, 
>> I am working on a tool for screenwriting (So far in german but with a 
>> languageTiddler to configure: http://storywriting.tiddlyspot.com/) 
>> The aim should be managing ideas, roles and storylines and of course 
>> formatting Wikitext  as a screenplay. 
>> After hours of trying to adapt the normal rules and getting into an 
>> awfull mess I finally decided I should follow an Idea brought up by BJ 
>> and Josiah and implement 
>> the fountain library https://fountain.io/ 
>> Is there anyone who has done this already? 
>> At the moment I got no clue how this could be achieved. 
>>
>> Yours Jan 
>>
>>
>> -- 
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Re: [tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

[Jan]

Hi Josiah,
fountain (at least as it seems to me) is a markuplanguage with a 
freeware .js. Hopfully it could be implemented like markup is in the new 
release, some features are already very similar.

http://bjtools.tiddlyspot.com/#%24%3A%2Fplugins%2Fbj%2Fmarkdownlike%2Freadme
There are implementations for libre-office and mediawiki.

Developping the story of course will be a task for TW.

Yours Jan


Am 28.08.2017 um 17:26 schrieb @TiddlyTweeter:

I feel for you

Its a lot more difficult than it first looks.

The strictness of the screenplay form is both what is good about it 
and challenging.


I'm incapable of helping you with code. However I can help with 
conceptualisation of how to think about screenplays.


In my own thinking they are a mix of TWO fundamentally different types 
of things.


A script is a crossing of "vertical" sections (act, scene etc) and 
"horizontal" components that form the "content"  -- Dialogue, 
Direction, Actions, Scene instructions.


Whilst its relatively easy to think about Tiddlers to create the 
"vertical aspect" its not at all easy to conceptualise how to most 
appropriately do the "horizontal" content. Should they be separate 
Tiddlers? Or just Boilerplate text?


Some cases bring out more clearly the needs. For instance, would you 
need to be able to extract ALL but ONLY the dialogue of Eve? To be 
able to do that all Eve's dialogue would need to be in Tiddlers OR you 
gonna have to develop very smart Regular Expressions to extract it. 
The same applies to Scene Setting that Executive Producers &  DPs 
would need.


My feeling now about Fountain is its excellent if you going for the 
Regular Expressions extraction method. TW can actually do much more 
than Fountain. I think the issue is getting the right conceptual model 
to start from.


Just thoughts


On Monday, 28 August 2017 15:44:44 UTC+2, Jan wrote:

Hi all,
I am working on a tool for screenwriting (So far in german but with a
languageTiddler to configure: http://storywriting.tiddlyspot.com/
)
The aim should be managing ideas, roles and storylines and of course
formatting Wikitext  as a screenplay.
After hours of trying to adapt the normal rules and getting into an
awfull mess I finally decided I should follow an Idea brought up
by BJ
and Josiah and implement
the fountain library https://fountain.io/
Is there anyone who has done this already?
At the moment I got no clue how this could be achieved.

Yours Jan


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[tw] Re: Fountain Parser for a screenwriting tool

[@TiddlyTweeter]

I feel for you

Its a lot more difficult than it first looks.

The strictness of the screenplay form is both what is good about it and 
challenging.

I'm incapable of helping you with code. However I can help with 
conceptualisation of how to think about screenplays.

In my own thinking they are a mix of TWO fundamentally different types of 
things. 

A script is a crossing of "vertical" sections (act, scene etc) and 
"horizontal" components that form the "content"  -- Dialogue, Direction, 
Actions, Scene instructions.

Whilst its relatively easy to think about Tiddlers to create the "vertical 
aspect" its not at all easy to conceptualise how to most appropriately do 
the "horizontal" content. Should they be separate Tiddlers? Or just 
Boilerplate text?

Some cases bring out more clearly the needs. For instance, would you need 
to be able to extract ALL but ONLY the dialogue of Eve? To be able to do 
that all Eve's dialogue would need to be in Tiddlers OR you gonna have to 
develop very smart Regular Expressions to extract it. The same applies to 
Scene Setting that Executive Producers &  DPs would need. 

My feeling now about Fountain is its excellent if you going for the Regular 
Expressions extraction method. TW can actually do much more than Fountain. 
I think the issue is getting the right conceptual model to start from.

Just thoughts


On Monday, 28 August 2017 15:44:44 UTC+2, Jan wrote:
>
> Hi all, 
> I am working on a tool for screenwriting (So far in german but with a 
> languageTiddler to configure: http://storywriting.tiddlyspot.com/) 
> The aim should be managing ideas, roles and storylines and of course 
> formatting Wikitext  as a screenplay. 
> After hours of trying to adapt the normal rules and getting into an 
> awfull mess I finally decided I should follow an Idea brought up by BJ 
> and Josiah and implement 
> the fountain library https://fountain.io/ 
> Is there anyone who has done this already? 
> At the moment I got no clue how this could be achieved. 
>
> Yours Jan 
>
>
>

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