Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Prevent the state of the Contents (TOC) SideBar from being saved?

2015-09-17 Thread Evolena 
Le jeudi 17 septembre 2015 05:00:45 UTC+2, Hegart Dmishiv a écrit :
>
> I'm currently using unordered lists on my tiddlers for linking to 
> "sub-types", which of course are also listed in my TOC in the SideBar. 
> While I'm building my knowledgebase wiki, having the static links on the 
> tiddler is handy because I create the new tiddlers for the sub-types by 
> clicking on redlinks (oh how I wish TW would identify missing pages with a 
> red link, rather than italics, but I must remember that TW != MW). But once 
> I have my wiki in a more complete state, I'll probably go back and make 
> those static lists dynamic using the macrocall you linked to above.
>

Have you checked the Missing tab (sub-tab in the More tab) in the Sidebar? 

You can also modify the CSS for missing link (there doesn"t seem to have a 
specific color palette for that).

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Prevent the state of the Contents (TOC) SideBar from being saved?

2015-09-17 Thread PMario 
On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 5:00:45 AM UTC+2, Hegart Dmishiv wrote:
>
> I made the change (that Andrew linked to) in my dev wiki first, to see 
> what would happen. I got a message saying...
>
> *You are about to edit a ShadowTiddler. Any changes will override the 
>> default system making future upgrades non-trivial. Are you sure you want to 
>> edit "$:/core/save/all"?*
>>
>
> So let me make sure I understand what this means. Whenever I edit a system 
> tiddler (shadow tiddler?) I'm going to need to document what I've done, so 
> that when a new version of TW is rolled out, I can go back through my list 
> of personalisations and re-apply them to the latest version. Does that 
> about sum it up? 
>

No in the contrary. What the message says is: Your content always wins. So 
if you update the core. Your changes stay. ... It's only to make sure, that 
you know, if a future core adds new functionality to a shadow tiddler, your 
tiddler / TW may not have this feature, since "Your content wins". ... 

This message was very important since the TW beta phase, since the core 
functionality, UI features, and so on changed with every release. ... We 
had a lot of problems users reporting, that the new functions don't work 
with their TW, because they did overwrite the core tiddlers. 

As Mat wrote. If you delete an overwritten shadow tiddler, the core will 
take over again. ... and that's one of the killer features of TW. If you 
mess up something, returning back to a working state is easy. 

 

> Sorry, but, WTF?! I shouldn't have to alter the whole underlying system 
> just to make a simple interface change. I'm going to end up with a huge 
> list of personalisations to my wiki, and have to manage it, curate it, and 
> reapply each one with copy/paste whenever a new version of TW becomes 
> available. It would be far simpler to just go ahead and personalise my own 
> copy of TW 5.1.9 and never upgrade it again! I assume thats why I see so 
> many older copies of TW floating around online still, because its easier to 
> keep personalisations than to upgrade, is that about right? I may be 
> over-reacting to this, I often do. I have no experience with upgrading TW 
> yet, so please let me know that what I imagine from that edit warning is 
> not as bad as it seems.
>

Calm down! As I wrote above. Your content wins. 

have fun!
mario

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Prevent the state of the Contents (TOC) SideBar from being saved?

2015-09-17 Thread Mat 
On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 5:00:45 AM UTC+2, Hegart Dmishiv wrote:
>
> Thanks Andrew, Mat and Greg for all the replies. I'm obviously not the 
> first person to ask this question, and I did try to search the forums first 
> before asking, but I couldn't find anything that addressed just the state 
> of the TOC, as Mat alludes to above.
>
> I made the change (that Andrew linked to) in my dev wiki first, to see 
> what would happen. I got a message saying...
>
> *You are about to edit a ShadowTiddler. Any changes will override the 
>> default system making future upgrades non-trivial. Are you sure you want to 
>> edit "$:/core/save/all"?*
>>
>
> So let me make sure I understand what this means. Whenever I edit a system 
> tiddler (shadow tiddler?) I'm going to need to document what I've done, so 
> that when a new version of TW is rolled out, I can go back through my list 
> of personalisations and re-apply them to the latest version. 
>

It's not quite that problematic and there is a very clever feature to this 
that I think you'll appreciate: 

When you overwrite a shadow tid, the original is kept! So if you delete 
your modified version, the original pops into place immediately. Try to 
delete a shadow tiddler and you'll see you can't. 

Upgrades do not overwrite your modified tiddler. Instead it is the 
underlying original that is updated. So, if you in the future delete your 
modified version, you get the latest update of the original.

That said, if you modify a shadow tiddler of course anything relying on 
that one gets implicitly affected. Just like anything else, if you 
"improve" your car by exchanging one of it tires, then of course it 
implicitly affects a lot of other things. 

Still, TW is extremely configurable. One can argue that the specific OP you 
bring up should be "brought closer" to the end user by having the toc state 
fetch it's value from some intentionally user manipulated field, like is 
done with e.g "Settings" in the Controlpanel. 


*@Greg*: The link to Tobi's tiddler about States and Temporary Tiddlers 
>  comes with this dire 
> warning:
>
> *Caution: Defining the wrong save-filter may have you unknowingly lose 
>> data!*
>>
>
> As I'm still very new to all this, and don't really know the structure of 
> the underlying TW system well, I'm probably better off avoiding that one 
> for now. But thanks anyway Greg.
>

Well, don't do you experimenting using your original TW and take a lot of 
copies. The warning states the obvious; be careful if you tamper with the 
filter that states what to save when the user clicks save.

 

> And thanks *@Mat* for your wonderful feedback, which I have posted 
>  to the 
> Google+ 
> TiddlyWiki community 
> . I'm glad 
> that my questions and observations are useful. Sorry if I seem like a 
> grumpy old man sometimes, but that's me in real life, haha. 
>


<:-)

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Prevent the state of the Contents (TOC) SideBar from being saved?

2015-09-17 Thread PMario 
On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 5:00:45 AM UTC+2, Hegart Dmishiv wrote:
>
> *@Greg*: The link to Tobi's tiddler about States and Temporary Tiddlers 
>  comes with this dire 
> warning:
>
> *Caution: Defining the wrong save-filter may have you unknowingly lose 
>> data!*
>>
>
> As I'm still very new to all this, and don't really know the structure of 
> the underlying TW system well, I'm probably better off avoiding that one 
> for now. But thanks anyway Greg.
>

That's the downside of warnings :) They may prevent experimentation.  

With TW a user can change the UI and functionality in a way, that is not 
possible and allowed in other software. ... Our users can do what ever they 
want. And very often they do :) ... Sometimes they mess up some stuff. But 
fixing it, is as easy as delete the changed shadow tiddler, so the default 
(core) tiddler can take over again. ... 

*Everything is fine -> as long as you make some backups, prior to your 
experiments :)*

--- some more background info.

With TW we basically have 3 types of tiddlers. 

 - standard tiddlers .. user content
 - system tiddlers .. start with $: .. hidden in standard lists
 - shadow tiddlers. .. defined by the core and plugins. ... you can 
overwrite them, but if you delete your changed tiddler, the will be 
magically restored. 

If you 
 - open eg: http://tiddlywiki.com/#HelloThere and 
 - view the tiddler (i) info panel. It can be reached from the tiddler 
toolbar see the more dropdown.
 - select the Advanced tab
 - it shows: 


*Shadow Status*
>
> The tiddler HelloThere  is not a 
> shadow tiddler
>


 - open http://tiddlywiki.com/#%24%3A%2FAcknowledgements

 - (i) info: Advanced   shows


*Shadow Status*
>
> The tiddler $:/Acknowledgements 
>  is a shadow tiddler
>
> It is defined in the plugin $:/core 
>

 - if you edit the tiddler it shows the "overwrite" warning

 - save

 - (i) info: Advanced   shows


*Shadow Status*
>
> The tiddler $:/Acknowledgements 
>  is a shadow tiddler
>
> It is defined in the plugin $:/core  
>
> It is overridden by an ordinary tiddler <- this info is new. 
>

So you know, if you delete or rename this tiddler, the default core/shadow 
tiddler will take over again. 

have fun! 
mario




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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Prevent the state of the Contents (TOC) SideBar from being saved?

2015-09-17 Thread Hegart Dmishiv 
Thanks for the replies everyone.

On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 8:12:07 PM UTC+12, PMario wrote:
>
> That's the downside of warnings :) They may prevent experimentation.  
>

Oh, I'm all in favor of hacking up my stuff, don't worry about that. I 
maintain a completely separate instance of TW specifically for 
experimentation before I make a change to my main "production" wiki, and 
both "dev" and "live" are backed up regularly. I was just expressing my 
doubts about my own competence with TW so far, because I haven't 
experimented enough with it as yet to be confident that I understand the 
implications of what I'm doing yet. Gimme time to get to know TW a little 
more before I attempt something that is labeled as "could break something 
serious", haha.

Also, as much as I'm spending time learning the finer points of TW, I'm 
also working slavishly to enter raw content into my "live" version of TW, 
the plain content that doesn't involve any coding, just text, formatting, 
categories and links. I'm balancing my time between that and 
experimentation, beginning to explore the possibilities and limitations of 
TW.

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Prevent the state of the Contents (TOC) SideBar from being saved?

2015-09-17 Thread PMario 
On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 10:26:20 AM UTC+2, Hegart Dmishiv wrote:
>
> Thanks for the replies everyone.
>
> On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 8:12:07 PM UTC+12, PMario wrote:
>>
>> That's the downside of warnings :) They may prevent experimentation.  
>>
>
> Oh, I'm all in favor of hacking up my stuff, don't worry about that. I 
> maintain a completely separate instance of TW specifically for 
> experimentation before I make a change to my main "production" wiki, and 
> both "dev" and "live" are backed up regularly. I was just expressing my 
> doubts about my own competence with TW so far, because I haven't 
> experimented enough with it as yet to be confident that I understand the 
> implications of what I'm doing yet. Gimme time to get to know TW a little 
> more before I attempt something that is labeled as "could break something 
> serious", haha.
>

IMO that's the right way :)
 

> Also, as much as I'm spending time learning the finer points of TW, I'm 
> also working slavishly to enter raw content into my "live" version of TW, 
> the plain content that doesn't involve any coding, just text, formatting, 
> categories and links. I'm balancing my time between that and 
> experimentation, beginning to explore the possibilities and limitations of 
> TW.
>

Yea, 

The "hackability" of TiddlyWiki seduces many users to go deeper and deeper 
into customisation, instead of "just using" it :) ... You have to have 
content first, to see how categorisation makes sense. So refactoring the 
structure is very common with TW since the "big big" picture may be hidden 
at the beginning. 

So keep on asking questions and try to document, what you've learned. As I 
wrote in an other thread. Newbie feedback is valuable but the "newbie" 
status goes away very fast ;)

-mario

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Prevent the state of the Contents (TOC) SideBar from being saved?

2015-09-17 Thread Evolena 
This information is already available on every tiddlywiki: go to the 
controlPanel, Info/Basics tab, there is a "Number of overridden shadow 
tiddlers" with an icon that leads to an advanced search filter.
Or there is a premade "Overridden shadow tiddlers" filter available in the 
Advance search by filter.

However, these filters also include all temp, state and config tiddlers, 
which may be noisy.

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Prevent the state of the Contents (TOC) SideBar from being saved?

2015-09-17 Thread Greg Davis 
Glad you are getting answers from those with more knowledge, I just passed 
on what I had found in my own searches. I'm still hesitant to go hacking at 
the underlying core but most of what I wanted didn't require that so far. 
As for your concerns about being stuck on one version it is simpler to move 
changes to a new TiddlyWiki than you may have imagined. TiddlyWiki can 
store tiddlers in JSON files and import them.

It just requires tagging all the tiddlers that you change or add for your 
customization with a unique tag. Then use Advanced Search on Filter to 
select the tiddlers with that tag. You can then save that group of tiddlers 
as a JSON. That JSON can be imported to a new TiddlyWiki applying your 
customization. One of those tiddlers could be one where you documented your 
changes.

This also be applied to content that you might want to transfer. As long as 
it has unique tags for a group of content.

See: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/R5sSkEOCilQ/n6zZdSmmM98J

For more on JSON search here for that, 
see also my brief example: 
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/sh/h8q01y5kygoyhch/AAB88H2CEZP_IAdzc1AJBYN8a/5-1-7_left-menu_custom.htm#Build%20json%20for%20multiple%20tiddlers

Good Luck,
Greg

On Wednesday, September 16, 2015 at 10:00:45 PM UTC-5, Hegart Dmishiv wrote:
>
>
> So let me make sure I understand what this means. Whenever I edit a system 
> tiddler (shadow tiddler?) I'm going to need to document what I've done, so 
> that when a new version of TW is rolled out, I can go back through my list 
> of personalisations and re-apply them to the latest version. Does that 
> about sum it up? Sorry, but, WTF?! I shouldn't have to alter the whole 
> underlying system just to make a simple interface change. I'm going to end 
> up with a huge list of personalisations to my wiki, and have to manage it, 
> curate it, and reapply each one with copy/paste whenever a new version of 
> TW becomes available. It would be far simpler to just go ahead and 
> personalise my own copy of TW 5.1.9 and never upgrade it again! I assume 
> thats why I see so many older copies of TW floating around online still, 
> because its easier to keep personalisations than to upgrade, is that about 
> right? I may be over-reacting to this, I often do. I have no experience 
> with upgrading TW yet, so please let me know that what I imagine from that 
> edit warning is not as bad as it seems.
>
>

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Prevent the state of the Contents (TOC) SideBar from being saved?

2015-09-17 Thread Hegart Dmishiv 
Tag the shadow tiddlers that I modify, as I go, huh? Brilliant. And simple. 
Thanks *@Greg*, I'll start doing that from now on. I have coloured all my 
system-related tags red, so they stand out from everything else. I now have 
one called *modified-shadow* and have tagged the $:/core/save/all tiddler 
with it. That's the only one I've changed so far.

Getting great advice like this, early on in my use of TiddlyWiki, is 
awesome. It means I don't have to go back and apply such changes to a whole 
heap of things I'd've already done.

>
>

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RE: [tw] Re: [TW5] Prevent the state of the Contents (TOC) SideBar from being saved?

2015-09-16 Thread infurnoape 



Resource: Single-file save should exclude $:/temp/... tiddlers #1199 (Jeremy 
Ruston 12/5/14)
Replace: -[prefix[$:/state/popup/]]with: -[prefix[$:/state/]] 
-[prefix[$:/temp/]]in: $:/core/save/all
Happy Connecting. Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy S® 5

 Original message 
From: Mat <matiasg...@gmail.com> 
Date: 09/16/2015  4:20 PM  (GMT-07:00) 
To: TiddlyWiki <tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com> 
Subject: [tw] Re: [TW5] Prevent the state of the Contents (TOC) SideBar from 
being saved? 

I believe $:/core/save/all can be edited so it doesn't save tiddlers 
prefixed(!) with $:/state/toc/.
The prefix $:/state/toc/ refers to the temporary tiddlers created when 
opening/closing an item in a toc.
I'm not 100% sure of the above. I know the  $:/core/save/all is involved when 
uploading to TiddlySpot but it might not be involved in general saving of TW, I 
don't know. 
You might also wish to check a $macrocall to toc example to manually specify 
selected state tiddler. Maybe it is enough to prefix this with $:/temp because 
I think tiddlers prefixed so are not saved. This should probably be your first 
test actually.

Play around not in your actual TW. And please report how it went.
BTW, I find many of your questions very valuable. In spite of being new to TW, 
you have a clear idea of what you want (probably from your MediaWiki background 
- that was you, right?) and this seems to make you pinpoint very reasonable 
basic issues that highlight weaknesses in the UI and things that "old timers" 
probably take for granted or have just accepted and (mistakenly) aren't 
thinking about anymore (myself included).
<:-)



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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Prevent the state of the Contents (TOC) SideBar from being saved?

2015-09-16 Thread Greg Davis 
additional examples at: 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/9SCm237WDJw/UIZuA2fGeN8J


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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Prevent the state of the Contents (TOC) SideBar from being saved?

2015-09-16 Thread Hegart Dmishiv 
Thanks Andrew, Mat and Greg for all the replies. I'm obviously not the 
first person to ask this question, and I did try to search the forums first 
before asking, but I couldn't find anything that addressed just the state 
of the TOC, as Mat alludes to above.

I made the change (that Andrew linked to) in my dev wiki first, to see what 
would happen. I got a message saying...

*You are about to edit a ShadowTiddler. Any changes will override the 
> default system making future upgrades non-trivial. Are you sure you want to 
> edit "$:/core/save/all"?*
>

So let me make sure I understand what this means. Whenever I edit a system 
tiddler (shadow tiddler?) I'm going to need to document what I've done, so 
that when a new version of TW is rolled out, I can go back through my list 
of personalisations and re-apply them to the latest version. Does that 
about sum it up? Sorry, but, WTF?! I shouldn't have to alter the whole 
underlying system just to make a simple interface change. I'm going to end 
up with a huge list of personalisations to my wiki, and have to manage it, 
curate it, and reapply each one with copy/paste whenever a new version of 
TW becomes available. It would be far simpler to just go ahead and 
personalise my own copy of TW 5.1.9 and never upgrade it again! I assume 
thats why I see so many older copies of TW floating around online still, 
because its easier to keep personalisations than to upgrade, is that about 
right? I may be over-reacting to this, I often do. I have no experience 
with upgrading TW yet, so please let me know that what I imagine from that 
edit warning is not as bad as it seems.

*@Greg*: The link to Tobi's tiddler about States and Temporary Tiddlers 
 comes with this dire warning:

*Caution: Defining the wrong save-filter may have you unknowingly lose 
> data!*
>

As I'm still very new to all this, and don't really know the structure of 
the underlying TW system well, I'm probably better off avoiding that one 
for now. But thanks anyway Greg.

And thanks *@Mat* for your wonderful feedback, which I have posted 
 to the 
Google+ 
TiddlyWiki community 
. I'm glad that 
my questions and observations are useful. Sorry if I seem like a grumpy old 
man sometimes, but that's me in real life, haha. That macrocall to TOC 
 
is going to be very handy, BTW. I'm currently using unordered lists on my 
tiddlers for linking to "sub-types", which of course are also listed in my 
TOC in the SideBar. While I'm building my knowledgebase wiki, having the 
static links on the tiddler is handy because I create the new tiddlers for 
the sub-types by clicking on redlinks (oh how I wish TW would identify 
missing pages with a red link, rather than italics, but I must remember 
that TW != MW). But once I have my wiki in a more complete state, I'll 
probably go back and make those static lists dynamic using the macrocall 
you linked to above.

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