Re: [tw] Re: javascript macro / macrocall problem

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Jim

I have noticed as I work through building my own macros that sometimes
> reloading the TW (or restarting TW under node) will cause code changes to
> be picked up that weren't before. So I've kinda gotten into doing it
> automatically as sort of a "Wave a dead chicken over it" superstitious
> practice.
>

It's not superstition! It's necessary to restart TiddlyWiki in order for it
to pick up any code changes. That means "refresh" in the browser and if
you're running under Node.js you'll need to restart the server, too.

Best wishes

Jeremy.



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Re: [tw] Re: javascript macro / macrocall problem

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Stephen, Tobias

I think the source of the confusion here is that this syntax doesn't work:

> <>

I agree that it's reasonable to expect that syntax to work.

The rationale for the current arrangement is that there is a conscious
layering of wikitext features that progressively provides flexibility at
the expense of complexity:

* At the highest level, we have the basic formatting syntax like ''bold''
and //italic//. This syntax is generally simple MediaWiki- or MarkDown-like
markup.
* Then comes linking and transclusion, with double square brackets and
double braces respectively. Transclusion also introduces the idea of text
references
* Then comes macro invocations with double angle brackets. The syntax here
is still very simple (it's actually the same as TWC), and avoids
complexities like transcluded parameters
* Finally, the base widget level provides the finest degree of control and
flexibility, at the expense of a much more complicated syntax (albeit, it
is based on the familiar syntax for HTML elements)

That's not intended to be an argument for never supporting transcluded
parameters in the basic macro syntax, of course.

Best wishes

Jeremy.




On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Tobias Beer  wrote:

> hi Stephen,
>
>
>> Though it seems a bit clunky, I’m working exclusively $macrocall when
>> sending fields to javascript routines.
>>
> Can you perhaps create an example wiki along with a minimalist example
> macro that shows what works, what doesn't work and explains how you would
> think it should? ...that can perhaps be used to create a new ticket on
> GitHub with a clear-cut issue.
>
> Best wishes, Tobias.
>
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Re: [tw] Re: javascript macro / macrocall problem

[Neil Griffin]

I encountered the same problem and solution in writing my first javascript 
macros.  I have now come across another difficulty which may also be 
related to the layering of features that Jeremy described.

Jeremy: am I interpreting correctly that your bullet list indicates the 
order in which the features are processed, but last first in your list?  
Thus, the transclusion is only processed after the non-widget <<>> style 
macro invocation?

My problem is that I am trying to use a macro to generate an 
<$action-setfield> widget, where the $value parameter is calculated by my 
macro. If I put my macro inside a <$button> widget, the action doesn't get 
activated by the button, which makes sense if widgets are processed before 
macros.  The odd thing is that if I also ask the macro to generate the 
<$button> widget, the action *does* get activated in the way I intended 
when I click the button.  Since I am trying to generate many $action 
widgets inside the same $button, it would be much neater if the first 
method worked, to avoid having to write out lots of repeated widget text or 
pass dozens of parameters to the single macro.  Is there a way round this?

Thanks,

Neil.

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Re: [tw] Re: javascript macro / macrocall problem

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Neil

Jeremy: am I interpreting correctly that your bullet list indicates the
> order in which the features are processed, but last first in your list?
> Thus, the transclusion is only processed after the non-widget <<>> style
> macro invocation?
>

No, not at all. The layers I was describing are conceptual groupings of
features that can be progressively taught to users.


> My problem is that I am trying to use a macro to generate an
> <$action-setfield> widget, where the $value parameter is calculated by my
> macro. If I put my macro inside a <$button> widget, the action doesn't get
> activated by the button, which makes sense if widgets are processed before
> macros.  The odd thing is that if I also ask the macro to generate the
> <$button> widget, the action *does* get activated in the way I intended
> when I click the button.  Since I am trying to generate many $action
> widgets inside the same $button, it would be much neater if the first
> method worked, to avoid having to write out lots of repeated widget text or
> pass dozens of parameters to the single macro.  Is there a way round this?
>

The issue here is that action widgets need to be immediate children of the
widget that triggers them. If you generate the action widgets within a
macro then the macro will be wrapped around the action widget, meaning that
the trigger widget won't see it.

We have discussed lifting this restriction. it would be particularly useful
to be able to generate action widgets with the list widget.

Best wishes

Jeremy


>
> Thanks,
>
> Neil.
>



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Re: [tw] Re: javascript macro / macrocall problem

[Neil Griffin]

Ah okay.  I think I am some way off understanding the inner workings of TW.

But yes, I can certainly see that there could be many situations where 
generating a list of actions to be triggered by one button, whether using a 
list widget, or by repeatedly calling a macro with different parameters as 
I am trying to do, could be useful.

As an aside, I must say that, despite shying away from using javascript 
with TW for a while, I have found that the barrier to entry was very low, 
certainly for anyone with any knowledge of a 'C-like' language.  I can't 
help thinking that many people must be struggling to do things using the 
core that they could accomplish much more easily by taking the plunge into 
javascript (especially anything involving numbers).  I wonder whether 
people would benefit if javascript was promoted more as a part of the basic 
TW tool set rather than segregating it in the 'dev' area, which makes it 
seem more daunting than it really is?  There must be many people like me 
who do a bit of programming, but don't consider themselves to be 
developers.  A quick primer tutorial is all it would take (I haven't 
looked... maybe one already exists).

Cheers,

Neil.

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Re: [tw] Re: javascript macro / macrocall problem

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Neil

As an aside, I must say that, despite shying away from using javascript
> with TW for a while, I have found that the barrier to entry was very low,
> certainly for anyone with any knowledge of a 'C-like' language.  I can't
> help thinking that many people must be struggling to do things using the
> core that they could accomplish much more easily by taking the plunge into
> javascript (especially anything involving numbers).  I wonder whether
> people would benefit if javascript was promoted more as a part of the basic
> TW tool set rather than segregating it in the 'dev' area, which makes it
> seem more daunting than it really is?  There must be many people like me
> who do a bit of programming, but don't consider themselves to be
> developers.  A quick primer tutorial is all it would take (I haven't
> looked... maybe one already exists).
>

Interesting thought. With TWC we repeatedly saw people who would not
classify themselves as developers but nevertheless managed to lash up a
simple macro (often by copying and pasting chunks of existing code).

We pulled the developer material into a separate wiki in response to
feedback that it was making the main tw5.com material harder to use for
beginners - with the content combined, a search like "transclusion" brings
back a lot of results that aren't relevant for most users.

I guess there's a couple of ways we could explore this idea:

* Having a better introduction to dev topics within the tw5.com wiki,
making Neil's case that the barriers to JS dev within TW are low
* More introductory tutorial material in tw5.com/dev, with the goal of
taking beginners through their first steps

Best wishes

Jeremy




>
> Cheers,
>
> Neil.
>
>


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Re: [tw] Re: javascript macro / macrocall problem

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Stephen

And much as I hate to say it, Tiddlywiki is a dreadful Javascript
> development environment. I have long since lost count on how many Red
> Pop-ups of Death I've seen. Some of them simply mean the javascript won't
> work... typically ones with a mismatch of {}s... while others seem to lock
> Tiddlywiki up... typically typos on variable names. I reflexively import
> the bad code into empty wikis, import the code from the failed wiki and
> edit before saving. So I would like to see recommendations for Javascript
> development environments... jsfiddle, Aptana, Firebug, whatever... with
> some notes on how to work around the Tiddlywiki special requirements and
> peculiarities.
>

I spend a lot of time on TW development, and write a lot of code that
crashes, but I never see the red pop-up of death. The way to avoid it is to
keep your browser developer tools open while you're doing any JavaScript
development. Then you'll end up in the debugger rather than crashing, and
you can read your code, and inspect the values of variables.

To be clear, the red popup of death is intended to alert an end-user to an
error. It doesn't offer enough information for anyone trying to debug code;
that's what the browser developer tools are good at.

Best wishes

Jeremy


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Re: [tw] Re: javascript macro / macrocall problem

[Neil Griffin]

The casual TW user venturing into js macros does not have 'developer 
tools', so yes the popups are a pain, and I agree that TW is not a good 
development environment.  But for really simple macros, once you have 
learned the main pitfalls, it's simple enough to add real value with some 
loops or numerical calculations etc, without the need for development tools.

I would also agree that people on the forum are not typical, and much more 
likely to have programming skills than the general computer-using 
population.  However, I would argue that this also applies to a large 
majority of potential TW users.  Yes, anyone can 'consume' a TW in the 
sense of using it like a website, and they can maybe create some tiddlers 
with cross-links.  But going beyond that to learn about widgets, 
transclusion, macros, etc is *hard*.  My view is that people who don't 
either have programming skills, or at least the aptitude for programming 
are never going to get very far with this.  Hence my view that a good 
proportion of people that *have *got that far, would benefit from having 
additional tools at their disposal to do things that are quite simple, but 
not possible with core TW.

Stephen: I thought your new user trials were interesting, but the main 
lesson that I took from it was not that the new user experience was not 
good enough (though that is indeed true), but rather, that TW is not for 
everyone.  It is a powerful tool for people with the skills and inclination 
to use it, but most people are probably not even going to see the point of 
it, let alone be able to use it in a meaningful way.

I can see the argument that adding yet another element to the tools within 
tiddlywiki.com could add to the confusion, but this confusion is pretty 
severe anyway, and would be better addressed by restructuring the 
introductory information rather than by hiding something that I would view 
as essential for certain types of task.  At the moment, the information is 
structured in the form 'these are the features; this is how they work'.  
The big thing that is missing in my view, is a description of what the 
features are *for*.  The hardest thing in learning to drive TW is to know 
what tool to use for a given task.  If there were a summary describing what 
role each of the features played in creating a dynamic wiki, then there 
would be a natural gap that would be filled by js macros (and other js 
features, no doubt - I haven't got that far), namely for performing more 
programatic or numerical operations.  Given such a summary, then at least 
people would know *when* the move to js would be necessary, even if that 
information is kept in the dev area.  I wasted a fair bit of time trying to 
imagine crazy ways of doing things with the core that it wasn't designed 
for (eg numeric operations by ordering and filtering a set of tiddlers that 
represent different numbers...!), while not really even understanding the 
functional difference between macros and widgets.

Cheers,

Neil.

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Re: [tw] Re: javascript macro / macrocall problem

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Stephen

I went back and turned on Firebug in Firefox (34.0.5 and Windows 7) and the
> built in debugger in Chrome (37.0.2062.120) ... at least I think I did...
> and tried reloading my test wiki with the javascript flaw. In both cases, I
> got the "red popup of death" reporting the undeclared variable and neither
> would allow me to do much more than unload the defective wiki and load up a
> new empty. Both debuggers basically gave me the same message as the
> r.p.o.d. So I either haven't set the debuggers up correctly, which is
> highly probable, or I'm not using the same tools as you are using, which is
> even more probable, or I'm simply not as good at this as you are... which
> is an absolute certainty.
>

Strange. So, with the browser debug tools you saw both the r.p.o.d. and you
also saw a message in the developer tools console.  One possibility is that
the debugger isn't configured to pause on exceptions. It's a toolbar
button; the setting is described here:

https://developer.chrome.com/devtools/docs/javascript-debugging

Best wishes

Jeremy.




>
> If I may ask you and the other developers, what are you using for your
> development environment?
>
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Re: [tw] Re: javascript macro / macrocall problem

[Jim Lehmer]

On 1/11/2015 2:44 AM, Neil Griffin wrote:
I would strongly argue that one thing that is definitely not TW's 
strength is user friendliness.. I don't think it ever will be its 
selling point, and trying maximise user friendliness is likely to be a 
misplaced effort, and could end up diluting TW's strong points.  For 
someone who needs user friendly note taking, something like Evernote, 
OneNote, a Word document or pen and paper are always going to win 
out.  I would suggest that the features that cause anyone to choose TW 
are A) the ability to have ownership of the data and the means to 
access that data, and B) the ability to use a powerful, customisable 
and extensible platform to organise information in new and interesting 
/ useful ways.  Personally, I came to TW for A, and stick with it for 
both A and B.


I would agree with both. And I also came for A. Especially when ran 
under node, so that all the tiddlers end up being separate files that 
are very similar in format to other systems like Pelican; that is, 
somewhat YAML-like key-value pairs followed by wikitext or Markdown or 
whatever. I know that I can "get my content out" of TW if I decide to 
change with some pretty simple tools (Ah, if only Pandoc supported TW 
syntax! The other wiki formats it supports are all different from TW and 
each other - but it would be easy enough to script some transforms, or 
for that matter perhaps write a Pandoc reader for TW.)


If we accept these as the key strengths of TW (are there other 
suggestions?), then we have to acknowledge that the key audience is 
those people who care about those things, and not the people who can 
find other tools to do the same job in a more user friendly way.  That 
doesn't mean that TW shouldn't be made more user friendly, just that 
it should primarily be made more friendly to those users, and not to 
everyone.


Other strengths:

1. It's actively developed and supported and the primary developer is 
accessible. :)

2. It has a great community that is both enthusiastic and open to newcomers.

[I know when making suggestions that the suggester should be willing to 
help, and I am, so the following isn't a complaint, just an honest 
discussion, including me thinking about where I can contribute to it as 
I type.]


That said, I do support Jeremy's efforts to improve the docs. As a 
relative newcomer (I had played with TWc some years ago, but came back 
to TW5 in seriousness in November), I have to admit I have had some 
ramp-up problems getting it all in my head from a 
customization/development side. Lots to read (including the code, and 
there's */lots /*of code). And even the main TW docs still have some 
glaring holes. For example, both the /Variables in WikiText 
///and the 
/Transclusion in WikiText 
///tiddlers on the 
main site mention a tiddler called /Confusion between Transclusion and 
Substitution/ that doesn't exist. And I think it would be handy if it 
did, because I am still not clear on that subject myself. I */think /*I 
know, but I would like to hear Jeremy's canonical stance. :)


Another issue is lacking a clear, documented understanding of order of 
execution - from a high level when rendering a given tiddler, what 
happens when in terms of widgets, macros, transclusions (and templates), 
substitutions? I remain unclear in this area, and it has cost me time 
even doing something "relatively simple" like my bookmarks TW 
, 
which only has one tiddler that "does anything," but that took me well 
over a week to figure out and I experienced a few red screens of death 
along the way that rendered the TW file unusable due to autosave (and 
yes, I've learned to keep backups :).


In fact, I would like to see more documentation on what I believe the 
core of TW is, which is a DSL 
 for storing and 
displaying data within a browser. I think having a "cookbook" of various 
"recipes" would be good. There is some of that on the main site, but it 
is intermixed with with beginner through advanced topics, with some more 
of it over on the dev site (depending on what you're trying to cook :).


In fact, to me part of a cookbook (cookbook.tiddlywiki.com?) would be 
different TW files available for downloading demonstrating each recipe. 
I know people have discussed this before and some are trying to 
accomplish just that, and there are lots of examples linked to from this 
group and the site, but I am thinking of a TW "app store," almost. A set 
of small, */single-focus/*, curated TWs available for use and more 
importantly, as a starting point to observe how something was done.


Right now on the main site there are five examples under Community. I 
would think there could be dozens, really. And not so general-purpose as 
the examples (not that the

Re: [tw] Re: javascript macro / macrocall problem

['Stephen Kimmel' via TiddlyWiki]

I don't think there's a lot of risk of this group going overboard in making 
the program user friendly but I do think there are user interface areas 
that could tolerate improvement with diluting TW's strong points. It seems 
to me that one of the noteworthy ones, based on the number of efforts I've 
seen at improving it, is the editor. There have been at least a half dozen 
modifications including Eric's enhancements of TWC, Stefan bookmarklets and 
Danielo's keyboardsnippets. And others that are more aggressive. There are 
times when it seems that everyone with the skill has tried to improve that 
aspect of the program. Other than the preview pane, the editor is little 
more than a textarea box. If we could get it to look as good as the editor 
we use when posting messages to this group, I would be ecstatic. And it 
would make life a lot easier on the new users without detracting from 
Tiddlywiki's power.

Tiddlywiki is also, by a fair margin, the most sophisticated program I've 
run into in years (and I'll wager my number of years in the computer field 
rival anyone else's) with essentially no semblance of a help system. For 
just a few hundred bytes, we could offer folks an intermediate level of the 
program that includes key help files with negligible impact of the program. 
Something between the bare-bones empty and the full web-site would be 
helpful.

Other strengths:
>
> 1. It's actively developed and supported and the primary developer is 
> accessible. :)
> 2. It has a great community that is both enthusiastic and open to 
> newcomers.
>

I strongly agree with these two points. Without those two, I wouldn't be 
here. 

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Re: [tw] Re: javascript macro / macrocall problem

[Tobias Beer]

Other than loads of more ui,
this may be very practical...

http://tbgtd.tiddlyspot.com

Edit a tiddler and find a button in the toolbar that says *info on 
formatting*.

I think something like that triggered as a slider from the Editor, not 
unlike the preview pane,
will tremendously help putting concise information at a user's hand.

Best wishes, Tobias. 

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Re: [tw] Re: javascript macro / macrocall problem

[Jim Lehmer]

On 1/12/2015 7:24 AM, 'Stephen Kimmel' via TiddlyWiki wrote:
preview pane, the editor is little more than a textarea box. If we 
could get it to look as good as the editor we use when posting 
messages to this group, I would be ecstatic. And it would make life a 
lot easier on the new users without detracting from Tiddlywiki's power.


I have had the very same thought, multiple times when typing a TW group 
message into Google Groups - "I want */this /*editor in TW!" Especially 
since I tend to move between Markdown (er, CommonMark :) and TW quite a 
bit, and am always using the wrong syntax (I posted a pull request to 
another project on GitHub the other day and used TW's link syntax!)


The editor would still need a way to "drop to native syntax" for 
specifying widgets, defining macros, etc., but for the type of people 
(including me at times) who just want to use TW for quick notetaking and 
not have to remember the syntax for bolding, I think it would be a huge 
win. In fact, given that Ctrl-B, Ctrl-I, Ctrl-U are almost all uniform 
in meaning across most WYSIWYG editors, just having those three hot keys 
enabled would be a great start.


Tiddlywiki is also, by a fair margin, the most sophisticated program 
I've run into in years (and I'll wager my number of years in the 
computer field rival anyone else's)


I've been 35 years "in the industry," 27 with 
"programmer/engineer/architect" attached to my title. Am I close? :)


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Re: [tw] Re: javascript macro / macrocall problem

['Stephen Kimmel' via TiddlyWiki]

> Tiddlywiki is also, by a fair margin, the most sophisticated program I've 
> run into in years (and I'll wager my number of years in the computer field 
> rival anyone else's) 
>
>
> I've been 35 years "in the industry," 27 with 
> "programmer/engineer/architect" attached to my title. Am I close? :)
>

Close. Not that it matters at all but... My first job as a programmer 
started in 1965. In November of 1979, I was a contributing editor of 
Creative Computing magazine.  

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Re: [tw] Re: javascript macro / macrocall problem

[Jim Lehmer]

On 1/12/2015 12:36 PM, 'Stephen Kimmel' via TiddlyWiki wrote:
Close. Not that it matters at all but... My first job as a programmer 
started in 1965. In November of 1979, I was a contributing editor of 
Creative Computing magazine.


You win. :)

Although even so I realized I am not good doing math with really big 
numbers, because this is my 29th year programming professionally, not my 
27th. Yikes!


And I remember /Creative Computing/.

Now in respect to the other list members, we greybeards should quit 
discussing our "back in the day" bonafides. :)


"Hey, you kids! Get offa my dot matrix printer!" (waves cane)

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Re: [tw] Re: javascript macro / macrocall problem

[HansWobbe]

Stephen & Jim:

Thanks for stimulating me to feel "young again" however fleetingly.  -- 
Hans ( 1968, IBM360/75 Computing Center staff @ U.Waterloo )  ... off to 
find the Geritol ... :-)


| Close. Not that it matters at all but... My first job as a programmer 
started in 1965. In November of 1979, I was a contributing editor of 
Creative  Computing magazine.  

>  
> You win. :)
>
> Although even so I realized I am not good doing math with really big 
> numbers, because this is my 29th year programming professionally, not my 
> 27th. Yikes!
>
> And I remember *Creative Computing*.
>
> Now in respect to the other list members, we greybeards should quit 
> discussing our "back in the day" bonafides. :)
>
> "Hey, you kids! Get offa my dot matrix printer!" (waves cane)
>  

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