[twdev] Re: Is it possible to query the nodejs server with a macro?

[Matthew Lauber]

Since you can write a javascript macro, it is _possible_ to use any of the 
functionality that the tiddlywiki itself provides. Therefore it is possible 
to run ajax requests to query the API.  That said, I'm going to bet it's 
not the easiest thing in the world.  This is probably a good place to 
start.  http://tiddlywiki.com/dev/index.html#JavaScript%20Macros  I'd also 
take a look at the files here for 
examples. 
https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/tree/master/core/modules/macros

On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 5:57:36 PM UTC-4, Conner Phillips wrote:
>
> What I would like to do:
>
> Add a history tab to the ViewTemplate
>
> This tab displays the results of a query to the server which runs and 
> parses some git log commands.
>
> It seems in the past this was strictly not possible, but now I'm not so 
> sure. 
>

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[twdev] Re: Overview review

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Jel wrote:
>
> It's all very well advanced users knowing their way around, however coming 
> back to using it after a couple of years has given me a fresh outlook 
> which is less than impressed, it's rather chaotic...
>

I agree. Its chaotic & fragmentary (experientially). And it favours micro 
tech interests over completed applications. No ordinary user is gonna be 
interested in knowing that have to do 7 complex steps to get moving.

In mitigation I would say that the active developers are really passionate 
and not deaf to user needs. BUT they are few and dealing with ongoing tech 
issues, not so much auto-focused on ordinary usage.

It most likely TW needs a Marketing Branch, IMO, of people who are 
face-outwards to get it better  known & used.

Josiah





>
> Sorry about being a little contentious, I'm trying to raise a delicate 
> subject, 
> to allow you to see yourselves as others might see you.
>

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Re: [twdev] @dev - Why dev for Chrome is a MUST

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Some of your thoughts should get pinned.

My issue with this is not on saving per se, its on what is a TW 
"standalone".

Daniello's NoteSelf seems to instance a very interesting mid-place of easy 
saving and conventional TW authorial autonomy that makes this more rich, 
and interestingly, complex.

Josiah
 

> Jeremy Ruston wrote ...
>
> I do not think that making the single file edition easier to use is the 
> best way to get TiddlyWiki more widely used. Working with the single file 
> edition is inherently conceptually alien and risky for anyone raised on 
> conventional, contemporary web services; the barriers are not just about 
> the number of clicks. I believe that the way to get TiddlyWiki more widely 
> used is through online implementations that avoid the user having to worry 
> about saving.

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Re: [twdev] @dev - Why dev for Chrome is a MUST

[Jeremy Ruston]

> 
> I DO think that Chrome saving, IF it could be got to work as elegantly as 
> TiddlyFox currently does, could help TiddlyWiki get more widely used. There 
> has been much discussion about this. Not being a developer I don't really 
> understand the issues on how DIFFICULT overwrite saving has become in 
> browsers. 

The last time I checked, it was not possible to write a Chrome Extension for 
TiddlyWiki that works in the same way as TiddlyFox. Chrome restricts extensions 
to a sandboxed portion of the file system; they don’t have access, for example, 
to your Dropbox folder. So, the extension would require any TiddlyWiki’s to be 
imported into the sandbox before they can be saved. Because the sandbox is 
private to the extension, the extension would have to be responsible for 
syncing content to the cloud to get it on other devices. I believe that 
TiddlyChrome is subject to these restrictions.

Given Google’s biases, the way to get the best from TiddlyWiki on Chrome is to 
use it over http:// instead of file://, either by using a cloud hosted provider 
like TiddlySpot, or a local Node.js instance. Google continue to progressively 
restrict operations from file:// URLs. From their perspective, the capability 
is a security risk; the only thing stopping Google from disabling file:// URIs 
altogether is the outcry from web developers. But there is no doubt in my mind 
that that is the way that they are going. For Google, security is the 
overriding concern.

That’s why Firefox is adopting the same approach to security, and banning 
old-school extensions that have unrestricted access to the browser innards. 
It’s not viable for Mozilla to knowingly be less secure than the market leading 
browser, and so it’s pretty much guaranteed that they will continue to follow 
Google down the path of (a) restricting operations from file:// URLs and (b) 
severely limiting the powers of browser extensions.

Luckily, there are several different ways of using TiddlyWiki:

(1) As a local file with the HTML5 compliant “download” saver (that’s the one 
that re-downloads the HTML file each time it is saved). Even though the user 
experience is lumpy, and puts quite a lot of pressure on the user, this 
approach is simple and reliable, and I’ve been surprised to learn that many 
people use it as their everyday method of using TiddlyWiki
(2) As a local file with the Firefox-specific TiddlyFox extension
(3) As a local file with a Chrome-style restricted extension (eg TiddlyChrome)
(4) Via a locally run server
(5) Via a remote, cloud-based server

For the moment, we only need to worry about (2) going away; all the other ways 
of saving are not threatened.

One final point, as I’ve said before, I do not think that making the single 
file edition easier to use is the best way to get TiddlyWiki more widely used. 
Working with the single file edition is inherently conceptually alien and risky 
for anyone raised on conventional, contemporary web services; the barriers are 
not just about the number of clicks. I believe that the way to get TiddlyWiki 
more widely used is through online implementations that avoid the user having 
to worry about saving.

Best wishes

Jeremy

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[twdev] Re: @dev - Why dev for Chrome is a MUST

[Jel]

Don't forget Chrome's developing dialects like Iron, too

On Thursday, 27 April 2017 13:57:26 UTC+1, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Great discussion. Very relevant.
>
> I put it like this: I never minded that Firefox was in decline so long as 
> it retained its flexibility. Its flexibility on add-ons was superb.
>
> BUT, right now, its move towards WebExtensions target for November, is 
> causing havoc, especially for add-ons that need to save to disk. Its no 
> longer what it was.
>
> I DO think that Chrome saving, IF it could be got to work as elegantly as 
> TiddlyFox currently does, could help TiddlyWiki get more widely used. 
> There has been much discussion about this. Not being a developer I don't 
> really understand the issues on how DIFFICULT overwrite saving has become 
> in browsers. 
>
> What I AM clear about is that to "use-TW-out-of-the-box" in a way that an 
> ordinary user could cope with and benefit from needs simplicity. Especially 
> when they first start. Especially on basic saving.
>
> Best wishes
> Josiah
>
> On Thursday, 27 April 2017 14:10:17 UTC+2, PMario wrote:
>>
>> On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 12:36:50 PM UTC+2, Mat wrote:
>>>
>>> For anyone developing plugins or public TW stuff, I just wanted to 
>>> clarify a general premise - in case you didn't know already:
>>>
>>> Assuming the intention is for people to *use* the plugin, it *has *to 
>>> be developed with Chrome in mind:
>>>
>>
>> IMO that's only partially true. I read it as: "Chrome is the thing to use 
>> for everything". Or in different words: "Use a hammer if you have to deal 
>> with a screw"
>>
>> I think:  We should use the best tool, for the job that needs to be done. 
>> ... Then all of the sudden, these global statistics are completely 
>> irrelevant, because the measure the wrong side of the equation.
>>
>> -mario
>>
>

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[twdev] Overview review

[Jel]

Is it possible, please, for a group to stand back and look at the public face 
of TW? What does a tyro see when he starts looking without anyone who knows 
his way around alongside him to train him? OK, the Classic TW is somewhat 
deprecated now, however recent changes like the loss of BT have not left a 
coherent model - you can end up hopping from repository to repository until 
the trail ends in a 404 dead link, and grammar references are getting thin.
It's all very well advanced users knowing their way around, however coming back 
to using it after a couple of years has given me a fresh outlook which is 
less than impressed, it's rather chaotic: you need to take people from 
toddler to pro, so if I'm looking for the grammar of how to use a slider, 
for example, I can - at the moment I can't. I evenually found it in my own 
archive, as I saw this coming.

It's not my intention to start any kind of flame war, simply to ask that 
you see yourselves as others see you and have a fresh look - at the moment 
you've got so specific counting angels on the heads of pins (I'm a 
mediaevalist these days, by that I mean attending to the minutiae of 
relatively minor headaches) you've lost sight of the overview, it rather 
appears. Perhaps you should ask Google to place a preferred autorised start 
point at the top of any search: at the moment add-ins are offered the same 
priority on search engines as TW itself, and when one adds in the different 
dialects used by customised variants, it's chaotic.

Sorry about being a little contentious, I'm trying to raise a delicate subject, 
to allow you to see yourselves as others might see you.

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[twdev] Re: The understanding of TW

[PMario]

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 10:58:18 AM UTC+2, PMario wrote:
>
>  
>>
>>
>> I have many questions:
>>
>>- What elements node.js put in the single html tw?
>>
>> none
>

I probably didn't understand that question right :) 

When we build eg: empty.html with the --build command we basically add

 - the core:  https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/tree/master/core
 - and we use this recipe. 
https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/master/editions/empty/tiddlywiki.info

to create the html file. 

If you want to build and develop new TW functions, you should work with a 
fork of tw5 github repo . ... 

-mario


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[twdev] Re: The understanding of TW

[PMario]

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 9:59:29 AM UTC+2, Luis Gonzalez wrote:
>
> I understand some things:
>
>- node.js is the key concept.
>
> node.js is only needed, to build the SPA (Single Page App) eg: empty.html 
with a command line utility that is named "tiddlywiki" 

node.js is not needed if you start empty.html in the browser.  ... The file 
is "self contained" no other dependencies. 

tiddlywiki CLI (command line tool) has an option to start a server. eg: 
tiddlywiki mywiki --server. Where mywiki is the name of an edition. If a tw 
server is started that way, nodejs is needed. 


>- It has two ways: installing node.js and as a standalone html page.
>
> see above. node.js is not needed if you want to run tw in the browser. 
 

>
>- It runs in all new browsers with:
>   - html5
>   - javascript
>   - more needs?
>
> CSS
 

> and: 
>
> When a browser loads a page:
>
>- It loads the html file.
>- It parse it and generates the DOM.
>- It runs the scripts
>- It loads the css styles
>
>  That's basically the basic process every html page uses. ... But the main 
work is done in boot.js. That's where the real magic happens. boot.js 
"extracts" the core plugin, which contains all the other javascript 
modules, UI templates and base CSS.  That's the initial delay, that you 
see, when you start the page. 
 

> But if TW needs node.js to run, where is node.js in Firefox and Mac-Safari?
>
>
no nodejs needed as written above
 

> I read the html file with notepad.exe and I found the bootprefix.js and 
> boot.js, but no more elements.
>

Yes. These are the main startup routines. .. Understanding them is "kind of 
a challenge" :)
 

>
> I have many questions:
>
>- What elements node.js put in the single html tw?
>
> none
 

>
>- Is posible to change the core english language tiddlers with other 
>languages to generate a "native non-english" tiddlywikis?
>
> There are 21 language plugins. If you download empty.html and open the 
ControlPanel: Plugins:  ... click: "Get more plugins" button ... a modal 
will open with an: "open plugin library" button ... click it and select the 
"language" tab, to see the languages, you want to import.  


>- Is posible to generate the wiki with less elements?
>
> Yes. This would be called a new "theme". Creating a new "base - theme" 
from scratch will need a lot of internal knowledge, but it is possible.
 

>
>- What elements are "dispensables" and what functionalities would be 
>suppresed?
>
>  You can remove everything, but it wouldn't be very useful. 

>
>- Could we make a timeline of the TW load in a browser?
>
> I don't understand this question. 

hope that helps

have fun!
mario

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