Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power

[Dave Brown]

Many of them include the ability to remotely turn off supply- something 
thats not so well known as its not had much use as yet...

DaveB, NZ

- Original Message - 
From: "J. Forster" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power



IMO, smart meters are a greased, very slippery, slope toward power
rationing or fines for "overconsumption"

YMMV,

-John





Will & Bill,


[snip]


Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is converting
everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better
monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer
real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer
have a use for meter-readers...




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Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <2292.12.6.201.196.1309211348.squir...@popaccts.quikus.com>, "J. For
ster" writes:

>IMO, smart meters are a greased, very slippery, slope toward power
>rationing or fines for "overconsumption"

Or, if they make your electricity bill go down:  An fair attempt to make
the consumers pay the correct price for their actual usage.

It's all a matter of perspective.

I was quite surprised when I read in SF.Chron recently that there
are consumers in No.Cal who pays more for a kWh than we do here in
Denmark, (.38$/kWh) I thought we had the highest (taxed) rates in
the civilized world, but I guess not.

Energy never was cheap, we just deluded ourselves into thinking so.

Poul-Henning

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party

[Jim Lux]

On 6/27/11 9:43 AM, Mark Spencer wrote:


I'm not sure if the results I am seeing are  valid or not.My signal source
is a 16 volt doorbell transformer that feeds a voltage divider which in turn
feeds my 5370B with an approx 2 volt sine wave.   Setting the trigger point on
the 5370B to 0 volts appears to provide the best results and the sine wave from
the voltage divider looks to be clean on my scope.  But I'm wondering if changes
in line voltage could be confusing things.



That's sort of why I was thinking of the sound card approach.. you 
sample it, fit a sinusoid, and get the zero crossing time from the 
parametric fit.


Doorbell transformers have a lot of leakage inductance to limit the 
current (so that shorting the output doesn't burn it up)


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Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power

[J. Forster]

The problem comes down to the lack of good storage to level the load.

With big thermal (coal or nuke) plants the mechanical power applied to the
generators has to equal the electrical power delivered to the load
(ignoring losses). If more power is put in than goes out the generator
speeds up and this really messes up the network.

However, the load from the network is not constant. People turn things on
and off.

What the utilities do, approximately, is run the big plants at the average
expected load. If load starts to increase or decrease, they vary the
mechanical input. However, when load gets really high and the plants are
maxed out, they bring on "peaking power" from gas turbines. The peaking
power is more expensive, so they charge big users more.

Basically, the utrilities know the demand will be greater at certain times
of the day, so they charge peak rates for the KWH used during tjose times.

-John

=



> I really don't understand the 'over consumption' issue when it comes to
> utilities.  The production of electricity, in part, is related to load.
> However, the cost of the generating plant, personnel involved in running
> the
> operation, maintenance, etc., in other words, fixed costs, are the
> substantial part.  Therefore, the entity must have a sufficient revenue
> stream to keep it operational.
>
> If you cut utilization, you will have to raise the price of a Kw-Hr.  If
> enough people produce their own power, and stop utilizing the 'grid' for
> power, the cost or 'grid power' will go up to the point that folks being
> supported by the government will not be able to afford it.  Therefore, in
> order to keep electricity affordable, you need to use as much as possible
> so
> the cost per Kw-Hr is as low as possible.
>
> This analysis applies to any utility, phone, cable, power, water, etc.,
> where the charge is on the basis of usage.
>
> IMO
>
> Joe
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of J. Forster
> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:49 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power
>
>
> IMO, smart meters are a greased, very slippery, slope toward power
> rationing
> or fines for "overconsumption"
>
> YMMV,
>
> -John
>
> 
>
>
>> Will & Bill,
>
> [snip]
>
>> Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is
>> converting everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better
>> monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer
>> real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer have a
>> use for meter-readers...
>
>
>
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>
>



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Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power

[J. L. Trantham]

I really don't understand the 'over consumption' issue when it comes to
utilities.  The production of electricity, in part, is related to load.
However, the cost of the generating plant, personnel involved in running the
operation, maintenance, etc., in other words, fixed costs, are the
substantial part.  Therefore, the entity must have a sufficient revenue
stream to keep it operational.

If you cut utilization, you will have to raise the price of a Kw-Hr.  If
enough people produce their own power, and stop utilizing the 'grid' for
power, the cost or 'grid power' will go up to the point that folks being
supported by the government will not be able to afford it.  Therefore, in
order to keep electricity affordable, you need to use as much as possible so
the cost per Kw-Hr is as low as possible.

This analysis applies to any utility, phone, cable, power, water, etc.,
where the charge is on the basis of usage.

IMO

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of J. Forster
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:49 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power


IMO, smart meters are a greased, very slippery, slope toward power rationing
or fines for "overconsumption"

YMMV,

-John




> Will & Bill,

[snip]

> Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is 
> converting everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better 
> monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer 
> real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer have a 
> use for meter-readers...



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Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power

[jim s]

On 6/27/2011 6:33 PM, Will Matney wrote:



I'll leave a parting shot at AEP on this. When I closed up the building I
had the shop in, I went down to our AEP office at the time, and paid off my
bill, the day after I had them to put a boot on the meter, and a new seal
on it. It was read that day. Well, the next month, I get another bill, and
I take it to AEP, and ask what's up, and show them a time stamped photo of
the meter, with the seal and boot still on it. They had the audacity to
tell me, that it still must have been something using the power, and the
meter had been read, but it had never been tampered with. Now, you tell me
what happened? I never paid that bill either. My guess, it all revolved
around the meter reader.

Best,

Will

If this was in a building with a landlord showing the unit, it may be 
that they never put the power back in their names, trying to be cheap 
bastards.   Did you go back and read it to see if the meter had any 
power on it, or just take their word for it.  Once you cut off your 
responsibility, it doesnt' matter much what they say, it is going to be 
their problem, not yours.


The power company did nothing when I cut off service, and the power was 
still on for some days after I vacated, but my bill was last and final, 
and I don't know who got the bill for the extras.


Other possibility is that you were being leeched off of all the time you 
were in the shop, and when you pulled out all your stuff, the leech was 
still hooked up.  I'd actually be a bit more curious if this was the 
case, as I'd like to get back part of all of my billing for the entire 
time I was in the unit.


Jim

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Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power

[Will Matney]

Jason,

What will be funny is when all the neighbourhood hoodlums start stealing
all the antenna modules off the poles, or an enterprising teen electronics
whiz kid starts jamming the signal. I can see antenna modules piling up at
scrap yards, sitting beside the aluminum pop cans, as I speak.

My major worry is about the time base they use, and whether we will end up
getting the dirty end of the stick, so to speak. They figure Joe Blow down
on the corner don't know enough about this stuff to question it, but just a
few of us do. Also, as John mentioned, we have ignorant politicians who
will go along with it. Also, like you, I haven't seen much printed about
them, just what I've found. I figure, if we're footing the bill, I want it
as precise as possible, and not in just the amount I use, but over the
amount of time I used it.

I'll leave a parting shot at AEP on this. When I closed up the building I
had the shop in, I went down to our AEP office at the time, and paid off my
bill, the day after I had them to put a boot on the meter, and a new seal
on it. It was read that day. Well, the next month, I get another bill, and
I take it to AEP, and ask what's up, and show them a time stamped photo of
the meter, with the seal and boot still on it. They had the audacity to
tell me, that it still must have been something using the power, and the
meter had been read, but it had never been tampered with. Now, you tell me
what happened? I never paid that bill either. My guess, it all revolved
around the meter reader.

Best,

Will

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 6/27/2011 at 6:17 PM Jason Rabel wrote:

>I know the older style meters currently in use usually slow down over time
(a minuscule amount, but still I guess it adds up).
>
>I do not know if the talk about demand meters and timing were about
current meters or the new "smart meters"... 
>
>I've seen some new meters (I'm assuming the smart ones) that show the time
of day on them. They recently put up a bunch of
>directional antennas on power poles and little boxes beneath them. My
understanding is that they are creating a kind of private
>wi-fi network... Talk about ultimate funny if L2's network jammed
theirs... lol. But seriously, I would guess these meters would get
>time from the private network. How the display time interacts with the
internal timing I do not know.
>
>The power company has published exactly zero documents on these meters
that I've been able to find. Just the usual propaganda that
>these are good for you and will save you (and them) money!
>
>I worry too that these new meters are just a stepping stone to bill during
on and off peak hours...
>
>If things get too far out of hand, we have ~65,000 sqft of rooftop that
would be an excellent candidate for solar panels.
>
>The power company has been on full alert too it seems lately. We have a
few offices that are empty, but we keep the power on for
>maintenance reasons. Well a few months after the tenants moved out, a guy
from the power company came to check the meter and such.
>They noticed the usage dropped to near zero and they wanted to make sure
the meter wasn't broken or they weren't stealing
>electricity. Apparently the power company didn't get the memo about the
recession and countless small businesses closing up shop.
>
>
>On a somewhat similar note... I *finally* put my time servers on a UPS
today. Now every time the power flashes they won't get reset!
>Last week I found a guy on craigslist selling a couple APC Smart-UPS
750XL's. When I got there he also had FIVE battery packs to go
>along with the two UPSes. I got them for a steal (I assumed the batteries
would all be bad) and upon bringing them back to the shop
>the batteries seemed in rather good condition after doing some testing and
checking the date codes. Each UPS has 2 x 18Ah batteries,
>and each battery pack has 4 x 18Ah.
>
>
>> Without really setting down and looking at the circuitry on the new
meters,
>> its hard to say what might happen, as I was speculating earlier. The
last
>> PDF I read, was about the circuits they added to stop folks from
bypassing
>> them, or stealing the electricity. I think that it was Analog Devices
who
>> were making the IC's for these, but I may be wrong. There was 2-3 app
notes
>> I read, as I was interested in seeing how they did it.
>>
>> You are also right, in that they will do away with the meter readers. If
I
>> recall, I read that they use a radio link to send the info back to the
>> office, or something similar.
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power

[Jason Rabel]

I know the older style meters currently in use usually slow down over time (a 
minuscule amount, but still I guess it adds up).

I do not know if the talk about demand meters and timing were about current 
meters or the new "smart meters"... 

I've seen some new meters (I'm assuming the smart ones) that show the time of 
day on them. They recently put up a bunch of
directional antennas on power poles and little boxes beneath them. My 
understanding is that they are creating a kind of private
wi-fi network... Talk about ultimate funny if L2's network jammed theirs... 
lol. But seriously, I would guess these meters would get
time from the private network. How the display time interacts with the internal 
timing I do not know.

The power company has published exactly zero documents on these meters that 
I've been able to find. Just the usual propaganda that
these are good for you and will save you (and them) money!

I worry too that these new meters are just a stepping stone to bill during on 
and off peak hours...

If things get too far out of hand, we have ~65,000 sqft of rooftop that would 
be an excellent candidate for solar panels.

The power company has been on full alert too it seems lately. We have a few 
offices that are empty, but we keep the power on for
maintenance reasons. Well a few months after the tenants moved out, a guy from 
the power company came to check the meter and such.
They noticed the usage dropped to near zero and they wanted to make sure the 
meter wasn't broken or they weren't stealing
electricity. Apparently the power company didn't get the memo about the 
recession and countless small businesses closing up shop.


On a somewhat similar note... I *finally* put my time servers on a UPS today. 
Now every time the power flashes they won't get reset!
Last week I found a guy on craigslist selling a couple APC Smart-UPS 750XL's. 
When I got there he also had FIVE battery packs to go
along with the two UPSes. I got them for a steal (I assumed the batteries would 
all be bad) and upon bringing them back to the shop
the batteries seemed in rather good condition after doing some testing and 
checking the date codes. Each UPS has 2 x 18Ah batteries,
and each battery pack has 4 x 18Ah.


> Without really setting down and looking at the circuitry on the new meters,
> its hard to say what might happen, as I was speculating earlier. The last
> PDF I read, was about the circuits they added to stop folks from bypassing
> them, or stealing the electricity. I think that it was Analog Devices who
> were making the IC's for these, but I may be wrong. There was 2-3 app notes
> I read, as I was interested in seeing how they did it.
>
> You are also right, in that they will do away with the meter readers. If I
> recall, I read that they use a radio link to send the info back to the
> office, or something similar.


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Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination

[Will Matney]

Chuck,

It's according to who designed the transformer, and what iron, and wire
they used. Some transformers can be ran up to 17 kilogauss (1.7 Tesla), but
the magnetizing current really shoots up after 15 kg, and they can get hot.
However, that's M-6 material, and I highly doubt they used that, as it is
expensive. Most likely, for that, it was M-19, which is ran around 10-12
kg, but if it got that hot, it either didn't have enough iron in it, not
enough turns in the primary, or it had an internal short, but it should
have smoked at that.

The problem is, that a lot of manufacturers spec'd transformers to run
right on the edge, and Heathkit was guilty of doing that somewhat. The only
reason was the cost came down, and the size. They also used a different
figure on sizing the wire, and run it at a higher current density than they
should, sometimes around 400 circular mils per ampere. A basic rule of
thumb, for a decent transformer, is at least 700-800 cir. mils per ampere,
and continuous duty, 1000 or over.

If you get a chance, try out a common door bell transformer, and test the
temperature. They were meant for intermittent duty, and they used to run
pretty hot.

Best,

Will

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 6/27/2011 at 3:38 PM Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R wrote:

>I picked up an older stereo amp to use its parts for a project.
>With no load at all, the power transformer runs uncomfortably hot.
>At 50 Hz it might make a good space heater for a while.
>
>-- 
>Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com   www.omen.com
>Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
>   Omen Technology Inc  "The High Reliability Software"
>10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231   503-614-0430
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination

[Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R]

I picked up an older stereo amp to use its parts for a project.
With no load at all, the power transformer runs uncomfortably hot.
At 50 Hz it might make a good space heater for a while.

--
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com   www.omen.com
Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
  Omen Technology Inc  "The High Reliability Software"
10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231   503-614-0430


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Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power

[J. Forster]

YThere are limits to corporate greed, as well as market feedback
mechanisms. Such constraints do npot apply to governments.

Suppose electricity went to $5/KWH:

If it were done by a utility, people would buy generators.
If it were legislated by government, generators could be outlawed.

YMMV,

-John

=


> John,
>
> Well, of course, that's so the fat cats, who are at the top at the
> utilitites, and the stock holders, make more bucks without having to
> upgrade the grid to do it. That's a prime example of Capitalism at work.
> How was the old saying, they would "squeeze a nickel until the buffalo
> s##ts".
>
> Best,
>
> Will
>
> *** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***
>
> On 6/27/2011 at 2:49 PM J. Forster wrote:
>
>>IMO, smart meters are a greased, very slippery, slope toward power
>>rationing or fines for "overconsumption"
>>
>>YMMV,
>>
>>-John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Will & Bill,
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>> Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is
>>> converting
>>> everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better
>>> monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer
>>> real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer
>>> have a use for meter-readers...
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Transformer design.

[Will Matney]

I knew I should have added the leyden jars and the coil!

I just saw an old Central Scientific induction coil with spark gap auction
off on ebay a while back, and this made me think of it.

Best,

Will

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 6/27/2011 at 3:11 PM J. Forster wrote:

>Sadly no. You need a good impedance match from transmitter to antenna.
>
>A Tesla coil has a very high output Z.
>
>-John
>
>
>
>
>> Bill,
>>
>> Now, if you could have connected a key to that, and a long wire antenna,
>> you would have been in business! One gigantic spark gap transmitter.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Will
>>
>> *** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***
>>
>> On 6/27/2011 at 5:36 PM William H. Fite wrote:
>>
>>>Without meaning to sound sassy, Brooke, let me assure you that there is
>>>nothing "just" about it.  While in high school I built quite a large
>>> Tesla
>>>coil with a 16kv, 60ma neon transformer, a pressurized air-quenched
spark
>>>gap, a huge variac, and a bank of 50 .15mfd (I think they were
>> .15mfd--that
>>>was a long time ago--capacitors.  The finished product, in addition to
>> being
>>>dangerous as hell to the careless operator could be heard more than a
>> block
>>>away and generated enough hash to bring TV and radio reception to a halt
>> in
>>>the whole neighborhood.
>>>
>>>And that isn't even a big one...
>>>
>>>So, no, it isn't magic and yes, it is an RF transformer with the primary
>> and
>>>secondary in resonance but, believe me, it is not "just" a transformer.
>>>
>>>Bill
>>>
>>>
>>>On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Brooke Clarke 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 It turns out that a Tesla coil is not magical, it's just an RF
>> transformer
 where the primary and secondary are resonated.  I took him some time
to
>> find
 a mechanical structure (pipe mast insulated by wine bottles with a
 capacitive top hat).  The high school "Tesla Coils" really are just RF
 transformers because they omit the resonance on the secondary.
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>>
>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Transformer design.

[J. Forster]

"Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

Sadly, much of the population have zero understanding of technology or
science. Hence, everything is magic.

-John

===


> Hi Bill:
>
> Agreed.  But there are those that consider them magic.
>
> Have Fun,
>
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
>
>
> William H. Fite wrote:
>> Without meaning to sound sassy, Brooke, let me assure you that there is
>> nothing "just" about it.  While in high school I built quite a large
>> Tesla
>> coil with a 16kv, 60ma neon transformer, a pressurized air-quenched
>> spark
>> gap, a huge variac, and a bank of 50 .15mfd (I think they were
>> .15mfd--that
>> was a long time ago--capacitors.  The finished product, in addition to
>> being
>> dangerous as hell to the careless operator could be heard more than a
>> block
>> away and generated enough hash to bring TV and radio reception to a halt
>> in
>> the whole neighborhood.
>>
>> And that isn't even a big one...
>>
>> So, no, it isn't magic and yes, it is an RF transformer with the primary
>> and
>> secondary in resonance but, believe me, it is not "just" a transformer.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Brooke Clarke
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> It turns out that a Tesla coil is not magical, it's just an RF
>>> transformer
>>> where the primary and secondary are resonated.  I took him some time to
>>> find
>>> a mechanical structure (pipe mast insulated by wine bottles with a
>>> capacitive top hat).  The high school "Tesla Coils" really are just RF
>>> transformers because they omit the resonance on the secondary.
>>>
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>>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Transformer design.

[J. Forster]

Sadly no. You need a good impedance match from transmitter to antenna.

A Tesla coil has a very high output Z.

-John




> Bill,
>
> Now, if you could have connected a key to that, and a long wire antenna,
> you would have been in business! One gigantic spark gap transmitter.
>
> Best,
>
> Will
>
> *** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***
>
> On 6/27/2011 at 5:36 PM William H. Fite wrote:
>
>>Without meaning to sound sassy, Brooke, let me assure you that there is
>>nothing "just" about it.  While in high school I built quite a large
>> Tesla
>>coil with a 16kv, 60ma neon transformer, a pressurized air-quenched spark
>>gap, a huge variac, and a bank of 50 .15mfd (I think they were
> .15mfd--that
>>was a long time ago--capacitors.  The finished product, in addition to
> being
>>dangerous as hell to the careless operator could be heard more than a
> block
>>away and generated enough hash to bring TV and radio reception to a halt
> in
>>the whole neighborhood.
>>
>>And that isn't even a big one...
>>
>>So, no, it isn't magic and yes, it is an RF transformer with the primary
> and
>>secondary in resonance but, believe me, it is not "just" a transformer.
>>
>>Bill
>>
>>
>>On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Brooke Clarke 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It turns out that a Tesla coil is not magical, it's just an RF
> transformer
>>> where the primary and secondary are resonated.  I took him some time to
> find
>>> a mechanical structure (pipe mast insulated by wine bottles with a
>>> capacitive top hat).  The high school "Tesla Coils" really are just RF
>>> transformers because they omit the resonance on the secondary.
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>>
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>
>
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Transformers

[J. Forster]

> At the risk of incurring John's wrath ..:-))

Not at all. I'm interested in HF too. And, I've spent months trying to
quiet switchers on spacecraft.

What I do have a lot of wrath for is lame-brained "ecco-activists" who are
totally ignorant of the principles of physics, chemistry, and EE and the
clueless politicians who don't know (or care) about the difference between
engineering reality and stinking manure.

> The trouble with the so-called green switch-mode "transformers" is they
> pollute !! .the radio spectrum!! We still have LF BC services
> in
> Europe and an LF amateur band.The noise floor has risen by nearly 20dB in
> the past 10 years, due to badly designed equipment, and/or badly policed
> EMC
> regs. Iron core transformers didn't give these problems. It also affects
> many radio clock syncs from MSF on 60kHz (there I managed to get an
> on-topic
> comment in :-))  )

The fact is that switchers can be made quiet. It costs a bit more, but
should be done.

-John

==


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Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power

[Will Matney]

I bet they'll drop estimating your bill too!

Best,

Will

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 6/27/2011 at 2:54 PM Brooke Clarke wrote:

>Hi John:
>
>Yes.
>
>In S. California there was a big investigation about their accuracy.  It 
>turned out that they are better than the mechanical meters, BUT if time 
>of day metering is implemented along with the smart meter you power bill 
>can up by hundreds of percent.
>
>Have Fun,
>
>Brooke Clarke
>http://www.PRC68.com
>
>
>J. Forster wrote:
>> IMO, smart meters are a greased, very slippery, slope toward power
>> rationing or fines for "overconsumption"
>>
>> YMMV,
>>
>> -John
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>> Will&  Bill,
>>>  
>> [snip]
>>
>>
>>> Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is
converting
>>> everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better
>>> monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer
>>> real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer
>>> have a use for meter-readers...
>>>  
>>
>>
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>>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power

[Will Matney]

John,

Well, of course, that's so the fat cats, who are at the top at the
utilitites, and the stock holders, make more bucks without having to
upgrade the grid to do it. That's a prime example of Capitalism at work.
How was the old saying, they would "squeeze a nickel until the buffalo
s##ts".

Best,

Will

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 6/27/2011 at 2:49 PM J. Forster wrote:

>IMO, smart meters are a greased, very slippery, slope toward power
>rationing or fines for "overconsumption"
>
>YMMV,
>
>-John
>
>
>
>
>> Will & Bill,
>
>[snip]
>
>> Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is converting
>> everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better
>> monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer
>> real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer
>> have a use for meter-readers...
>
>
>
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>
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi John:

Yes.

In S. California there was a big investigation about their accuracy.  It 
turned out that they are better than the mechanical meters, BUT if time 
of day metering is implemented along with the smart meter you power bill 
can up by hundreds of percent.


Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com


J. Forster wrote:

IMO, smart meters are a greased, very slippery, slope toward power
rationing or fines for "overconsumption"

YMMV,

-John




   

Will&  Bill,
 

[snip]

   

Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is converting
everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better
monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer
real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer
have a use for meter-readers...
 



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Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power

[J. Forster]

IMO, smart meters are a greased, very slippery, slope toward power
rationing or fines for "overconsumption"

YMMV,

-John




> Will & Bill,

[snip]

> Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is converting
> everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better
> monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer
> real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer
> have a use for meter-readers...



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Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power

[Kasper Pedersen]

On 06/27/2011 10:38 PM, Jason Rabel wrote:

> Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is converting 
> everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better
> monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer real-time 
> monitoring for the power company, and they no longer
> have a use for meter-readers...
> 

If the communications to/from them is in the CENELEC A band (or
similar), one may have to go to great lengths in order to have
60..77.5kHz clocks/receivers working.

http://n1.taur.dk/dcf/tm.png
(scope)
http://n1.taur.dk/dcf/idleannot.png
(quiet)
http://n1.taur.dk/dcf/active.png
(active on the high channel in A band)

I am only 500km from DCF77 (Denmark), and since they replaced the meter
with a 'smart' one, none of the radio clocks have been able to sync.

Only the phase tracking receiver, having a noise blanker, still works.

So I do not like 'smart' meters.

/Kasper Pedersen

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Re: [time-nuts] Transformer design.

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Bill:

Agreed.  But there are those that consider them magic.

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com


William H. Fite wrote:

Without meaning to sound sassy, Brooke, let me assure you that there is
nothing "just" about it.  While in high school I built quite a large Tesla
coil with a 16kv, 60ma neon transformer, a pressurized air-quenched spark
gap, a huge variac, and a bank of 50 .15mfd (I think they were .15mfd--that
was a long time ago--capacitors.  The finished product, in addition to being
dangerous as hell to the careless operator could be heard more than a block
away and generated enough hash to bring TV and radio reception to a halt in
the whole neighborhood.

And that isn't even a big one...

So, no, it isn't magic and yes, it is an RF transformer with the primary and
secondary in resonance but, believe me, it is not "just" a transformer.

Bill


On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:

   

It turns out that a Tesla coil is not magical, it's just an RF transformer
where the primary and secondary are resonated.  I took him some time to find
a mechanical structure (pipe mast insulated by wine bottles with a
capacitive top hat).  The high school "Tesla Coils" really are just RF
transformers because they omit the resonance on the secondary.
 

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Re: [time-nuts] Transformer design.

[Will Matney]

Bill,

Now, if you could have connected a key to that, and a long wire antenna,
you would have been in business! One gigantic spark gap transmitter.

Best,

Will

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 6/27/2011 at 5:36 PM William H. Fite wrote:

>Without meaning to sound sassy, Brooke, let me assure you that there is
>nothing "just" about it.  While in high school I built quite a large Tesla
>coil with a 16kv, 60ma neon transformer, a pressurized air-quenched spark
>gap, a huge variac, and a bank of 50 .15mfd (I think they were
.15mfd--that
>was a long time ago--capacitors.  The finished product, in addition to
being
>dangerous as hell to the careless operator could be heard more than a
block
>away and generated enough hash to bring TV and radio reception to a halt
in
>the whole neighborhood.
>
>And that isn't even a big one...
>
>So, no, it isn't magic and yes, it is an RF transformer with the primary
and
>secondary in resonance but, believe me, it is not "just" a transformer.
>
>Bill
>
>
>On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:
>
>> It turns out that a Tesla coil is not magical, it's just an RF
transformer
>> where the primary and secondary are resonated.  I took him some time to
find
>> a mechanical structure (pipe mast insulated by wine bottles with a
>> capacitive top hat).  The high school "Tesla Coils" really are just RF
>> transformers because they omit the resonance on the secondary.
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Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power

[Will Matney]

It wasn't Analog Devices, like I thought, but Teridian Semi, and division
of Maxim, who makes the chips. The part number in question was a 71M6511.
The app note is 4889.pdf from Maxim.

Best,

Will

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 6/27/2011 at 5:03 PM Will Matney wrote:

>Jason,
>
>I've read some about the new meters, but AEP hasn't touched any of
>ours...yet. They have demand monitoring here too, and you are correct, it
>can really rack up a power bill. A good friend that owns a machine shop
>watches his all the time. Once you get three phase power, the costs
>skyrocket, as they bill you for all kinds of things. That was why I made
>the decision of using a phase converter that time, and buying all of my
>machinery with 230 Vac motors, though some were dual voltage.
>
>Without really setting down and looking at the circuitry on the new
meters,
>its hard to say what might happen, as I was speculating earlier. The last
>PDF I read, was about the circuits they added to stop folks from bypassing
>them, or stealing the electricity. I think that it was Analog Devices who
>were making the IC's for these, but I may be wrong. There was 2-3 app
notes
>I read, as I was interested in seeing how they did it.
>
>You are also right, in that they will do away with the meter readers. If I
>recall, I read that they use a radio link to send the info back to the
>office, or something similar.
>
>Best,
>
>Will
>
>*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***
>
>On 6/27/2011 at 3:38 PM Jason Rabel wrote:
>
>>Will & Bill,
>>
>>Our (commercial) three phase power is fed by only two high-voltage wires
>(7,200v I think) which each pole has a pair of
>>transformers. I can only assume one generates the 220v single phase lines
>and the other is the high-leg delta. Around here 230v
>>three phase delta seems to be more common than 208v Y style.
>>
>>I remember a couple years ago we had a transformer die (thankfully it was
>a passive failure and not a massive fireball on the pole).
>>People were wondering why their machines weren't working (but the lights
>were on)... Sure enough hooking up a meter and the high leg
>>was dead...
>>
>>I did read somewhere that this change might have an effect on demand
>meters? There was no further explanation unfortunately, but
>>that does kind of worry me as I know about 90% of the meters on our
>property are that style. The power company just loves to tack on
>>a "demand charge" to the bill, which can often double, or triple the cost
>of your electric... Just because you want to have the
>>lights on, A/C running, and an air-compressor... :(
>>
>>I've never seen or heard of anyone here in Houston with three phase
>residential (except for farmers, but I guess they are
>>commercial).
>>
>>Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is converting
>everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better
>>monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer
>real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer
>>have a use for meter-readers...
>>
>>
>>___
>>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>>
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>>
>>http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Transformer design.

[William H. Fite]

Without meaning to sound sassy, Brooke, let me assure you that there is
nothing "just" about it.  While in high school I built quite a large Tesla
coil with a 16kv, 60ma neon transformer, a pressurized air-quenched spark
gap, a huge variac, and a bank of 50 .15mfd (I think they were .15mfd--that
was a long time ago--capacitors.  The finished product, in addition to being
dangerous as hell to the careless operator could be heard more than a block
away and generated enough hash to bring TV and radio reception to a halt in
the whole neighborhood.

And that isn't even a big one...

So, no, it isn't magic and yes, it is an RF transformer with the primary and
secondary in resonance but, believe me, it is not "just" a transformer.

Bill


On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:

> It turns out that a Tesla coil is not magical, it's just an RF transformer
> where the primary and secondary are resonated.  I took him some time to find
> a mechanical structure (pipe mast insulated by wine bottles with a
> capacitive top hat).  The high school "Tesla Coils" really are just RF
> transformers because they omit the resonance on the secondary.
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Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power

[Will Matney]

Jason,

I've read some about the new meters, but AEP hasn't touched any of
ours...yet. They have demand monitoring here too, and you are correct, it
can really rack up a power bill. A good friend that owns a machine shop
watches his all the time. Once you get three phase power, the costs
skyrocket, as they bill you for all kinds of things. That was why I made
the decision of using a phase converter that time, and buying all of my
machinery with 230 Vac motors, though some were dual voltage.

Without really setting down and looking at the circuitry on the new meters,
its hard to say what might happen, as I was speculating earlier. The last
PDF I read, was about the circuits they added to stop folks from bypassing
them, or stealing the electricity. I think that it was Analog Devices who
were making the IC's for these, but I may be wrong. There was 2-3 app notes
I read, as I was interested in seeing how they did it.

You are also right, in that they will do away with the meter readers. If I
recall, I read that they use a radio link to send the info back to the
office, or something similar.

Best,

Will

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 6/27/2011 at 3:38 PM Jason Rabel wrote:

>Will & Bill,
>
>Our (commercial) three phase power is fed by only two high-voltage wires
(7,200v I think) which each pole has a pair of
>transformers. I can only assume one generates the 220v single phase lines
and the other is the high-leg delta. Around here 230v
>three phase delta seems to be more common than 208v Y style.
>
>I remember a couple years ago we had a transformer die (thankfully it was
a passive failure and not a massive fireball on the pole).
>People were wondering why their machines weren't working (but the lights
were on)... Sure enough hooking up a meter and the high leg
>was dead...
>
>I did read somewhere that this change might have an effect on demand
meters? There was no further explanation unfortunately, but
>that does kind of worry me as I know about 90% of the meters on our
property are that style. The power company just loves to tack on
>a "demand charge" to the bill, which can often double, or triple the cost
of your electric... Just because you want to have the
>lights on, A/C running, and an air-compressor... :(
>
>I've never seen or heard of anyone here in Houston with three phase
residential (except for farmers, but I guess they are
>commercial).
>
>Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is converting
everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better
>monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer
real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer
>have a use for meter-readers...
>
>
>___
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>and follow the instructions there.
>
>__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
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>
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power

[Jason Rabel]

Will & Bill,

Our (commercial) three phase power is fed by only two high-voltage wires 
(7,200v I think) which each pole has a pair of
transformers. I can only assume one generates the 220v single phase lines and 
the other is the high-leg delta. Around here 230v
three phase delta seems to be more common than 208v Y style.

I remember a couple years ago we had a transformer die (thankfully it was a 
passive failure and not a massive fireball on the pole).
People were wondering why their machines weren't working (but the lights were 
on)... Sure enough hooking up a meter and the high leg
was dead...

I did read somewhere that this change might have an effect on demand meters? 
There was no further explanation unfortunately, but
that does kind of worry me as I know about 90% of the meters on our property 
are that style. The power company just loves to tack on
a "demand charge" to the bill, which can often double, or triple the cost of 
your electric... Just because you want to have the
lights on, A/C running, and an air-compressor... :(

I've never seen or heard of anyone here in Houston with three phase residential 
(except for farmers, but I guess they are
commercial).

Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is converting 
everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better
monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer real-time 
monitoring for the power company, and they no longer
have a use for meter-readers...


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Re: [time-nuts] Transformers

[David VanHorn]

Well... 

It is possible to design these things so that they are quiet.  I have put many 
designs through FCC and CE certifications, with emissions so low that they are 
asking me "Is that thing on?"  :)Two layer boards, no expensive shielding 
or suppression.  It takes careful design of the PCB and component selection.
But you're right, there's a bunch of crap out there.   I tested one that ran 
30dB over the FCC class A limit from 0.1 to 400+ MHz.



From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Alan 
Melia [alan.me...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 2:28 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Transformers

At the risk of incurring John's wrath ..:-))
The trouble with the so-called green switch-mode "transformers" is they
pollute !! .the radio spectrum!! We still have LF BC services in
Europe and an LF amateur band.The noise floor has risen by nearly 20dB in
the past 10 years, due to badly designed equipment, and/or badly policed EMC
regs. Iron core transformers didn't give these problems. It also affects
many radio clock syncs from MSF on 60kHz (there I managed to get an on-topic
comment in :-))  )

Alan G3NYK
- Original Message -
From: "Chris Albertson" 
To: ; "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Transformers


> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 12:18 PM, J. Forster  wrote:
> > One of the big networks ran a program on "being green" a couple of years
> > ago and suggested that the "energy crisis" could be solved by unplugging
> > iPod chargers.
>
> In the US "Standby Power" is about 5% of total.  But standby includes
> things like instant on TV sets and computers in sleep mode not just
> iPod and cell phone chargers.  So if you actually unplugged devices
> not in use the most we'd save is 5%.  That's a lot but not nearly
> enough to solve the world's energy problems.But 5% is nothing to
> ignore.  It is exactly the same as taking one house in 20 completely
> off the grid.
>
> Getting back to iPods.  Technology can help.  Apple's latest battery
> charger uses 30 milliwatts in standby (after the batteries are
> charged)  while the industry average is 10 times that much at about
> 300 mw. The trouble is that these new chargers are complex and
> cost more to make.
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Transformers

[Alan Melia]

At the risk of incurring John's wrath ..:-))
The trouble with the so-called green switch-mode "transformers" is they
pollute !! .the radio spectrum!! We still have LF BC services in
Europe and an LF amateur band.The noise floor has risen by nearly 20dB in
the past 10 years, due to badly designed equipment, and/or badly policed EMC
regs. Iron core transformers didn't give these problems. It also affects
many radio clock syncs from MSF on 60kHz (there I managed to get an on-topic
comment in :-))  )

Alan G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: "Chris Albertson" 
To: ; "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Transformers


> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 12:18 PM, J. Forster  wrote:
> > One of the big networks ran a program on "being green" a couple of years
> > ago and suggested that the "energy crisis" could be solved by unplugging
> > iPod chargers.
>
> In the US "Standby Power" is about 5% of total.  But standby includes
> things like instant on TV sets and computers in sleep mode not just
> iPod and cell phone chargers.  So if you actually unplugged devices
> not in use the most we'd save is 5%.  That's a lot but not nearly
> enough to solve the world's energy problems.But 5% is nothing to
> ignore.  It is exactly the same as taking one house in 20 completely
> off the grid.
>
> Getting back to iPods.  Technology can help.  Apple's latest battery
> charger uses 30 milliwatts in standby (after the batteries are
> charged)  while the industry average is 10 times that much at about
> 300 mw. The trouble is that these new chargers are complex and
> cost more to make.
> -- 
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Battery for Odetics GPStar

[paul swed]

You should use a lithium at 3.6 volts there is a switching diode that drops
.6 v so it sort of does matter. Essentially because at 3.6-.6 you are in the
sweet spot of the battery life. At least the way the odetics thinks about
it.
3 volts - .6 is 2.4 v and thats close to the 2.3 v considered to be a dead
battery.
I would bet however the odetics could actually go a lot further then that.
Just a guess though.
I had to replace my lithium and picked up 4 at a hamfest for $2 or less.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R
wrote:

> I tried the procedure given in the manual to initialize an
> Odetics GPStar.  After a while it thought it was in Oz
> because the satellites it was looking for were in that
> region, not here.
>
> So I cycled the power and put into SR mode.  It eventually
> sorted things out and appears to be cheerfully chugging
> along since.
>
> The unit has a dead 3.6 volt soldered in battery.
> Would a 3 volt replaceable battery be enough or is
> the last 0.6 volts vital?
>
> --
> Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com   www.omen.com
> Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
>  Omen Technology Inc  "The High Reliability Software"
> 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231   503-614-0430
>
>
> __**_
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Re: [time-nuts] Symmetricom SyncServer

[Will Matney]

Rob,

That's what I thought.

Best,

Will

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 6/27/2011 at 9:17 PM Rob Kimberley wrote:

>I'm sure their software used to be free.
>Rob K
>
>-Original Message-
>From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
>Behalf Of Will Matney
>Sent: 27 June 2011 8:19 PM
>To: time-nuts@febo.com
>Subject: [time-nuts] Symmetricom SyncServer
>
>I just got the below ad in an e-mail from Symmetricom:
>
>Order any SyncServerR NTP network time server and get 25% off a Domain
Time
>II Starter Kit - includes the comprehensive synchronization software suite
>for Windows.
>
>Best,
>
>Will
>
>
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>and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
>
>
>__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
signature database 5851 (20110206) __
>
>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
>http://www.eset.com




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Re: [time-nuts] Symmetricom SyncServer

[Rob Kimberley]

I'm sure their software used to be free.
Rob K

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Will Matney
Sent: 27 June 2011 8:19 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Symmetricom SyncServer

I just got the below ad in an e-mail from Symmetricom:

Order any SyncServerR NTP network time server and get 25% off a Domain Time
II Starter Kit - includes the comprehensive synchronization software suite
for Windows.

Best,

Will


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Re: [time-nuts] Transformers

[Chris Albertson]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 12:18 PM, J. Forster  wrote:
> One of the big networks ran a program on "being green" a couple of years
> ago and suggested that the "energy crisis" could be solved by unplugging
> iPod chargers.

In the US "Standby Power" is about 5% of total.  But standby includes
things like instant on TV sets and computers in sleep mode not just
iPod and cell phone chargers.  So if you actually unplugged devices
not in use the most we'd save is 5%.  That's a lot but not nearly
enough to solve the world's energy problems.But 5% is nothing to
ignore.  It is exactly the same as taking one house in 20 completely
off the grid.

Getting back to iPods.  Technology can help.  Apple's latest battery
charger uses 30 milliwatts in standby (after the batteries are
charged)  while the industry average is 10 times that much at about
300 mw. The trouble is that these new chargers are complex and
cost more to make.
-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Transformers

[J. Forster]

Disagree.

What really needs to be unplugged are the damn polticians that meddle in
and mandate insanities about things they are clueless about, based on who
makes the biggest "campaign contributions".

YMMV,

-John




> In message <29c8a27967ae5343be5ad7a887c9bd1a1881268...@esi-sbs08.esi.lan>,
> Davi
> d VanHorn writes:
>
>>Locally, there was a radio station running PSAs to tell people to
>>unplug their cell phone chargers "To save the environment".
>
> The ironical thing is that what really needs to be unplugged are the
> set-top-boxes, which often soak up 10-15W when in standby mode.
>
> Multiply by number of tv-sets in USA and you get a power plant or two.
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
> incompetence.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Transformers

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <29c8a27967ae5343be5ad7a887c9bd1a1881268...@esi-sbs08.esi.lan>, Davi
d VanHorn writes:

>Locally, there was a radio station running PSAs to tell people to
>unplug their cell phone chargers "To save the environment".

The ironical thing is that what really needs to be unplugged are the
set-top-boxes, which often soak up 10-15W when in standby mode.

Multiply by number of tv-sets in USA and you get a power plant or two.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party

[Bob Kupiec]

On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 12:34:41PM -0700, Tom Van Baak wrote:
> We are more a group of experimenters than lamenters, so
> here's an open invitation to all of you in the US to join me
> on a 60 Hz measurement party, starting as soon as you
> can and lasting as many weeks or months that it takes to
> get interesting plots.

It will be interesting to see of there is any difference after
Jult 14 when Time Error Correction Elimination is stopped for
testing.

http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386


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Re: [time-nuts] Transformer design.

[Will Matney]

Brooke,

I have several units made by ESI that I use for this, and one is the big
3-piece rack unit that contains the bridge, and the two suppies with the
detectors, one a mirror galvenometer. I also have one of their 4-1/2 digit
LCR meters for the bench, and three smaller units, two digital, and one
analog 250BE. It seems like you can sneeze sometimes, and change the
reading, just by the leads placement, when trying to do some exact
measurements. The test leads have a lot to do with it, in and how they're
made. I noticed some of the new Asian made Kelvin leads using two plain
wires to each clip, and I can see headaches trying to use them. All mine
use shielded, twisted-wire leads, and you still have to watch on them. I
use a panel mounted fixture for all small work, where there is no lead
length to worry about.

Best,

Will

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 6/27/2011 at 12:08 PM Brooke Clarke wrote:

>Hi Will:
>
>I got interested in RF coils and spent a couple of years winding coils, 
>and measuring them on a Boonton Q meter.  That led to Tesla and I got a 
>number of his publications.  It turns out that a Tesla coil is not 
>magical, it's just an RF transformer where the primary and secondary are 
>resonated.  I took him some time to find a mechanical structure (pipe 
>mast insulated by wine bottles with a capacitive top hat).  The high 
>school "Tesla Coils" really are just RF transformers because they omit 
>the resonance on the secondary.  Tesla did not understand Q and thought 
>it was something magic.
>
>Measuring impedance is very different than measuring things with 
>connectors, both in terms of backing out the connection parasitics and 
>in terms of using a measurement method that minimizes errors (for 
>example network analyzers only work when the impedance is within a 
>couple orders of magnitude of 50 Ohms).
>http://www.prc68.com/I/Z.shtml
>
>Have Fun,
>
>Brooke Clarke
>http://www.PRC68.com
>
>
>Will Matney wrote:
>> ...
>>
>> I encourage any on here to add to it, especially in the design of RF and
>> audio impedance transformers. I wanted to do more, but never found the
time
>> to set down and do it, plus I never really designed that many of them,
only
>> power transformers. What I wrote was the basics, but didn't get into any
>> formulae, etc, which I would have liked to have seen included. Any help
>> would be appreciated, not just by me, but our entire electrical and
>> electronics community as a whole, especially any students who read it. I
>> even found a link on Google, from a Russian university, who had their
>> students read it at one time.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Will
>>
>
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signature database 5851 (20110206) __
>
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Transformers

[J. Forster]

One of the big networks ran a program on "being green" a couple of years
ago and suggested that the "energy crisis" could be solved by unplugging
iPod chargers.

Nuts.

-John

===


>
> Locally, there was a radio station running PSAs to tell people to unplug
> their cell phone chargers "To save the environment".
>
> I was very tempted to call in with some envelope calculations on the
> energy expended to send out the PSAs vs the energy saved.
>
> It's not easy being green, but it's easy to LOOK green.
>
> 
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of
> Brooke Clarke [bro...@pacific.net]
> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 1:12 PM
> To: xfor...@citynet.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency
> measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Transformers
>
> Hi:
>
> For small (say under 5 Watt) loads the old wall wart has bit the dust
> (at least in California) because they waste power.  The new wall warts
> don't use mains frequency transformers, but rather transformers running
> is kHz frequencies.  You can tell because they are much smaller than the
> old ones and much lighter as well as working on any mains voltage and
> current in the world.
>
> Have Fun,
>
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
>
>
>
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>



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[time-nuts] Symmetricom SyncServer

[Will Matney]

I just got the below ad in an e-mail from Symmetricom:

Order any SyncServer® NTP network time server and get 25% off a Domain
Time II Starter Kit — includes the comprehensive synchronization software
suite for Windows.

Best,

Will


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Re: [time-nuts] Transformers

[David VanHorn]

Locally, there was a radio station running PSAs to tell people to unplug their 
cell phone chargers "To save the environment".

I was very tempted to call in with some envelope calculations on the energy 
expended to send out the PSAs vs the energy saved.

It's not easy being green, but it's easy to LOOK green.


From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of 
Brooke Clarke [bro...@pacific.net]
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 1:12 PM
To: xfor...@citynet.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Transformers

Hi:

For small (say under 5 Watt) loads the old wall wart has bit the dust
(at least in California) because they waste power.  The new wall warts
don't use mains frequency transformers, but rather transformers running
is kHz frequencies.  You can tell because they are much smaller than the
old ones and much lighter as well as working on any mains voltage and
current in the world.

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com



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Re: [time-nuts] transformers.

[Marco IK1ODO]

At 20:48 27/06/2011, you wrote:

... What makes it worse is our nominal is 240V AC not 220
Alan G3NYK


Alan,

the UK mains voltage should be 230 V +/- 10% after the European 
normalization done several years ago. Our in Italy went from a 
nominal 220 to 230 V at the same time.
In any case, yesterday at Friedrichshafen fair the nominal 230 V was 
close to 250, and some test equipment seller had power supply problems.


Marco IK1ODO


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Re: [time-nuts] Transformers

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi:

For small (say under 5 Watt) loads the old wall wart has bit the dust 
(at least in California) because they waste power.  The new wall warts 
don't use mains frequency transformers, but rather transformers running 
is kHz frequencies.  You can tell because they are much smaller than the 
old ones and much lighter as well as working on any mains voltage and 
current in the world.


Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com



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Re: [time-nuts] Transformer design.

[Chris Albertson]

There is also a good chapter on this in "Radiotron Designer's
Handbook, Fourth Edition, P. Langford Smith, 1953, 1,498 pages" which
has an expired copy write so it is available legally for free here.
http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/RDH4.pdf
This covers audio transformers and also secondary effects such as
"leakage induction" intra-winding capacitance and so on.
I like the author's approach.  He first covers each subject as an
overview than makes a second pass with more details and some times a
third pass.

Other specialized books on the same site, two on transformers under
"passive components" at
http://www.tubebooks.org/technical_books_online.htm


On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 11:42 AM, J. Forster  wrote:
> If anybody is really interested in transformer design, they should look at
> the classics, like:
>
> Fitzgerald & Kingsley
> or
> "Magnetic Circuits and Transformers" by MIT Staff
>
> They go through magnetic design, from soup to nuts.
>
> Also, the MIT Rad Lab Books "Components" volume.
>
> The units for design have changed in the last 50 years or so, BTW.
>
> For RF and ferrites, there are applcation notes from several makers, like
> Fair-Rite, that walk you through designs.
>
> While it's a big, complex field, you rarely have to hone a design to a
> razor's edge. Close enough very often works fine.
>
> Best,
>
> -John
>
> ===
>
>
>
>> John,
>>
>> Thanks. I started that article back in 2006, originally at Wikipedia,
>> writing at least 80% of it, and actually added the portion on RF and
>> impedance transformers last year, if I recall. It got too big for
>> Wikipedias liking, and they moved it to Wikibooks. I noticed somebody
>> added
>> a good deal on the manufacturing of large transformers, just now, or how
>> the coils are wound. I just hope it isn't copyrighted, as it looked to be
>> a
>> copy and paste from another document, plus the English needs a bit of
>> cleaning up.
>>
>> I encourage any on here to add to it, especially in the design of RF and
>> audio impedance transformers. I wanted to do more, but never found the
>> time
>> to set down and do it, plus I never really designed that many of them,
>> only
>> power transformers. What I wrote was the basics, but didn't get into any
>> formulae, etc, which I would have liked to have seen included. Any help
>> would be appreciated, not just by me, but our entire electrical and
>> electronics community as a whole, especially any students who read it. I
>> even found a link on Google, from a Russian university, who had their
>> students read it at one time.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Will
>>
>> *** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***
>>
>> On 6/27/2011 at 10:59 AM J. Forster wrote:
>>
>>>A good article, IMO.
>>>
>>>-John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
 For any interested in the link for the Wikibooks article on transformer
 design, the link is below.

 http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electronics/Transformer_Design

 Best,

 Will


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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>> signature database 5851 (20110206) __
>>>
>>>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>
>>>http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Transformer design.

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Will:

I got interested in RF coils and spent a couple of years winding coils, 
and measuring them on a Boonton Q meter.  That led to Tesla and I got a 
number of his publications.  It turns out that a Tesla coil is not 
magical, it's just an RF transformer where the primary and secondary are 
resonated.  I took him some time to find a mechanical structure (pipe 
mast insulated by wine bottles with a capacitive top hat).  The high 
school "Tesla Coils" really are just RF transformers because they omit 
the resonance on the secondary.  Tesla did not understand Q and thought 
it was something magic.


Measuring impedance is very different than measuring things with 
connectors, both in terms of backing out the connection parasitics and 
in terms of using a measurement method that minimizes errors (for 
example network analyzers only work when the impedance is within a 
couple orders of magnitude of 50 Ohms).

http://www.prc68.com/I/Z.shtml

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com


Will Matney wrote:

...

I encourage any on here to add to it, especially in the design of RF and
audio impedance transformers. I wanted to do more, but never found the time
to set down and do it, plus I never really designed that many of them, only
power transformers. What I wrote was the basics, but didn't get into any
formulae, etc, which I would have liked to have seen included. Any help
would be appreciated, not just by me, but our entire electrical and
electronics community as a whole, especially any students who read it. I
even found a link on Google, from a Russian university, who had their
students read it at one time.

Thanks,

Will



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Re: [time-nuts] Transformer design.

[Will Matney]

John,

I have the MIT books, and they are good. I think I listed, "Magnetic
Circuits and Transformers", in the references at the bottom of the article.
As a matter of fact, I used a BH curve chart in that book, I believe, to
calculate the relative permeability of all the alloys I listed, at the flux
density given. I actually had to blow up the chart image on a scanner in
order to see it better, as they had too many curves on it.

May main concern was keeping it as simple as possible, and not adding a
bunch of info that was not really needed to do the calculations. The
article "Transformers", at Wikipedia, touched on most of the rest, so I
didn't add them.

There was a few complaints about what I wrote about software, at the very
first, and I think they were by the software authors. One had modified the
article, wanting it to sound like software was the only thing used now, and
was the only thing usable, when in fact, all the software is based on the
very equations listed. Now the large manufacturers do use FEA software,
which shows what the flux flow will look like in the core, etc., but for
what we use, you don't need anything that sophisticated. They use it to
minimize the core size, etc, as they're penching pennies, and trying to
keep the weight down, on things that large.

Best,

Will

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 6/27/2011 at 11:42 AM J. Forster wrote:

>If anybody is really interested in transformer design, they should look at
>the classics, like:
>
>Fitzgerald & Kingsley
>or
>"Magnetic Circuits and Transformers" by MIT Staff
>
>They go through magnetic design, from soup to nuts.
>
>Also, the MIT Rad Lab Books "Components" volume.
>
>The units for design have changed in the last 50 years or so, BTW.
>
>For RF and ferrites, there are applcation notes from several makers, like
>Fair-Rite, that walk you through designs.
>
>While it's a big, complex field, you rarely have to hone a design to a
>razor's edge. Close enough very often works fine.
>
>Best,
>
>-John
>
>===
>
>
>
>> John,
>>
>> Thanks. I started that article back in 2006, originally at Wikipedia,
>> writing at least 80% of it, and actually added the portion on RF and
>> impedance transformers last year, if I recall. It got too big for
>> Wikipedias liking, and they moved it to Wikibooks. I noticed somebody
>> added
>> a good deal on the manufacturing of large transformers, just now, or how
>> the coils are wound. I just hope it isn't copyrighted, as it looked to
be
>> a
>> copy and paste from another document, plus the English needs a bit of
>> cleaning up.
>>
>> I encourage any on here to add to it, especially in the design of RF and
>> audio impedance transformers. I wanted to do more, but never found the
>> time
>> to set down and do it, plus I never really designed that many of them,
>> only
>> power transformers. What I wrote was the basics, but didn't get into any
>> formulae, etc, which I would have liked to have seen included. Any help
>> would be appreciated, not just by me, but our entire electrical and
>> electronics community as a whole, especially any students who read it. I
>> even found a link on Google, from a Russian university, who had their
>> students read it at one time.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Will
>>
>> *** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***
>>
>> On 6/27/2011 at 10:59 AM J. Forster wrote:
>>
>>>A good article, IMO.
>>>
>>>-John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
 For any interested in the link for the Wikibooks article on
transformer
 design, the link is below.

 http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electronics/Transformer_Design

 Best,

 Will


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>>>
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>> signature database 5851 (20110206) __
>>>
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>>>
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>>
>>
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>>
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Re: [time-nuts] transformers.

[J. Forster]

You can reduce (or increase) the line voltage with a small filament
transformer connected to buck (or boost) the line. For things up to a
couple of hundred Watts, the cost is <$10.

-John




> Ah but transformer design will become a lost art and will spawn lots of
> little garage industies :-))
> I have certainly had some Heath transformers overheat and go shorted-turn
> primary when used on 50Hz in the UK, and also some Japanese
> ones...they
> have 50Hz and 60Hz I believe unless they have rationalised in the last 30
> years. What makes it worse is our nominal is 240V AC not 220
> Alan G3NYK
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Charles P. Steinmetz" 
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> 
> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 7:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
>
>
>>
>> >The only thing I know of, apart from clocks, that you should not run
>> >on the wrong frequency are oldfashioned mechanical shavers.
>>
>> There are lots of consumer products sold in North America that
>> specify 60 Hz only, and in which the transformers will hum and
>> overheat if run on 50 Hz.  I have always designed with transformers
>> that will accept 47-63 Hz, but many competitors do not.  As more and
>> more items move to switching power supplies, this will be less of an
>> issue (of course, in many applications the switching supplies
>> themselves will create new issues...).
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Charles
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination

[Charles P. Steinmetz]

>Running the transformer that way won't burn it up at that instant, it just
>causes it to run hotter, because it's closer to saturation, and it shortens
>the life span a good bit.

I have yet to hear of any evidence for that being a problem with
US kit here in Denmark, probably because most kit is not run at
the extreme top end of its temperature specification.


I once was retained by a US manufacturer to determine why its 
high-end amps and preamps had a nearly 100% failure rate in Europe 
and Japan.  It was their power transformers, which lacked sufficient 
core for 50 Hz operation -- they overheated and opened the internal 
thermal link.  One customer had "repaired" his by digging out the 
thermal link and bypassing it with a short.  His got hot enough to 
cook the paper and enamel and produce smoke.


Best regards,

Charles





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Re: [time-nuts] transformers.

[Alan Melia]

Ah but transformer design will become a lost art and will spawn lots of
little garage industies :-))
I have certainly had some Heath transformers overheat and go shorted-turn
primary when used on 50Hz in the UK, and also some Japanese ones...they
have 50Hz and 60Hz I believe unless they have rationalised in the last 30
years. What makes it worse is our nominal is 240V AC not 220
Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Charles P. Steinmetz" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination


>
> >The only thing I know of, apart from clocks, that you should not run
> >on the wrong frequency are oldfashioned mechanical shavers.
>
> There are lots of consumer products sold in North America that
> specify 60 Hz only, and in which the transformers will hum and
> overheat if run on 50 Hz.  I have always designed with transformers
> that will accept 47-63 Hz, but many competitors do not.  As more and
> more items move to switching power supplies, this will be less of an
> issue (of course, in many applications the switching supplies
> themselves will create new issues...).
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
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Re: [time-nuts] Transformer design.

[J. Forster]

If anybody is really interested in transformer design, they should look at
the classics, like:

Fitzgerald & Kingsley
or
"Magnetic Circuits and Transformers" by MIT Staff

They go through magnetic design, from soup to nuts.

Also, the MIT Rad Lab Books "Components" volume.

The units for design have changed in the last 50 years or so, BTW.

For RF and ferrites, there are applcation notes from several makers, like
Fair-Rite, that walk you through designs.

While it's a big, complex field, you rarely have to hone a design to a
razor's edge. Close enough very often works fine.

Best,

-John

===



> John,
>
> Thanks. I started that article back in 2006, originally at Wikipedia,
> writing at least 80% of it, and actually added the portion on RF and
> impedance transformers last year, if I recall. It got too big for
> Wikipedias liking, and they moved it to Wikibooks. I noticed somebody
> added
> a good deal on the manufacturing of large transformers, just now, or how
> the coils are wound. I just hope it isn't copyrighted, as it looked to be
> a
> copy and paste from another document, plus the English needs a bit of
> cleaning up.
>
> I encourage any on here to add to it, especially in the design of RF and
> audio impedance transformers. I wanted to do more, but never found the
> time
> to set down and do it, plus I never really designed that many of them,
> only
> power transformers. What I wrote was the basics, but didn't get into any
> formulae, etc, which I would have liked to have seen included. Any help
> would be appreciated, not just by me, but our entire electrical and
> electronics community as a whole, especially any students who read it. I
> even found a link on Google, from a Russian university, who had their
> students read it at one time.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Will
>
> *** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***
>
> On 6/27/2011 at 10:59 AM J. Forster wrote:
>
>>A good article, IMO.
>>
>>-John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> For any interested in the link for the Wikibooks article on transformer
>>> design, the link is below.
>>>
>>> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electronics/Transformer_Design
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Will
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
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>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
> signature database 5851 (20110206) __
>>
>>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>>http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination

[David VanHorn]

They were talking about a very small drift here. Even if the change were ten 
HOURS in a year, that's one part in 876.
I highly doubt your shaver is going to be affected by grid tolerance.

I wouldn't plug a 60 hz model into 50 hz, but that's different.


From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of 
Poul-Henning Kamp [p...@phk.freebsd.dk]
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 9:39 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination

In message <4e086d33.6040...@ozindfw.net>, Oz-in-DFW writes:
>
>
>On 6/24/2011 9:20 PM, Will Matney wrote:
>> However, I should have
>> said, one should never run a 60 Hz transformer, or motor, on the same line
>> voltage it was rated for at a lower 50 Hz.
>Most modern commodity transformers for electronic power supplies are
>specified for rated performance from 47 to 63 Hz.

The only thing I know of, apart from clocks, that you should not run
on the wrong frequency are oldfashioned mechanical shavers.

If it has a motor you're fine, but if it just has a magnet and a
coil and relies on mechanical resonance: don't even think about it.

Anything else:  Just plug it in, after you checked the 110/200 V setting.

--
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <201106271430140926.1e33b...@smtp.citynet.net>, "Will Matney" writes
:

>Running the transformer that way won't burn it up at that instant, it just
>causes it to run hotter, because it's closer to saturation, and it shortens
>the life span a good bit. 

I have yet to hear of any evidence for that being a problem with
US kit here in Denmark, probably because most kit is not run at
the extreme top end of its temperature specification.

I would worry once we get into the kW territory, but below one kW 
I would not.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination

[Charles P. Steinmetz]

The only thing I know of, apart from clocks, that you should not run
on the wrong frequency are oldfashioned mechanical shavers.


There are lots of consumer products sold in North America that 
specify 60 Hz only, and in which the transformers will hum and 
overheat if run on 50 Hz.  I have always designed with transformers 
that will accept 47-63 Hz, but many competitors do not.  As more and 
more items move to switching power supplies, this will be less of an 
issue (of course, in many applications the switching supplies 
themselves will create new issues...).


Best regards,

Charles





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Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination

[Will Matney]

Poul-Henning,

Running the transformer that way won't burn it up at that instant, it just
causes it to run hotter, because it's closer to saturation, and it shortens
the life span a good bit. A lot of the new ones now being made, are wound
to run on either frequency (wound for just under 50 Hz), so they can export
them internationally.

Best,

Will

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 6/27/2011 at 3:39 PM Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

>In message <4e086d33.6040...@ozindfw.net>, Oz-in-DFW writes:
>>
>>
>>On 6/24/2011 9:20 PM, Will Matney wrote:
>>> However, I should have
>>> said, one should never run a 60 Hz transformer, or motor, on the same
line
>>> voltage it was rated for at a lower 50 Hz.
>>Most modern commodity transformers for electronic power supplies are
>>specified for rated performance from 47 to 63 Hz.
>
>The only thing I know of, apart from clocks, that you should not run
>on the wrong frequency are oldfashioned mechanical shavers.
>
>If it has a motor you're fine, but if it just has a magnet and a
>coil and relies on mechanical resonance: don't even think about it.
>
>Anything else:  Just plug it in, after you checked the 110/200 V setting.
>
>-- 
>Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
>p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
>FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
>Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
incompetence.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] LightSquared asks GPS makers and users to pay for filters

[Charles P. Steinmetz]

I do not want to minimize the threat posed to GPS by Lightsquared 
("LS"), but the post below (i) ignores the last 3 months of debate on 
the subject and dozens of messages on this list, (ii) mis-states the 
case against LightSquared, and (iii) ignores the FCC's leading role 
in the fiasco.


LS did nothing nefarious.  The FCC established the basis for an 
"ancillary terrestrial component" ("ATC") to satellite services that 
uses terrestrial base stations on satellite frequencies to supplement 
satellite networks.  The first commercial application of ATC was to 
the satellite radio services ("SDARS").  There was a hue and cry from 
adjacent WCS licensees, and several FCC proceedings to resolve the 
issues, which are still under attack.


The FCC, on its own motion and with the blessing of the 
Administration, has decided that the US desperately needs 500 MHz 
more of wireless broadband spectrum or we will never recover from the 
recession.  Personally, I believe it is mistaken to think that 
enabling multi-player gamers and video watchers to squander vast 
amounts of wireless bandwidth will rejuvenate the economy -- but 
then, it was not my decision.  As a result of this muddled mindset, 
the FCC has been looking at every possibility to repurpose 
"underutilized" spectrum for wireless broadband.


One of the FCC's ideas -- and make no mistake, it was the FCC's idea, 
not something driven by political connections and campaign 
contributions -- is to greatly expand terrestrial broadband 
operations in the mobile satellite service ("MSS") bands.  No one can 
reasonably argue that the MSS bands are not "underutilized" -- as I 
remarked before, you can see the tumbleweeds blowing through.


Currently, expanded terrestrial use of the MSS bands requires a 
waiver of the "ancillary" part of the ATC rules.  However, the FCC 
has already begun the process of re-allocating the MSS bands to allow 
purely terrestrial uses on a co-primary basis.  When that 
re-allocation process is complete, the band will be fully open to 
terrestrial uses and no waiver will be necessary.  So, the LS issue 
is just the tiniest tip of an immense iceberg.  And again, that is 
ALL the FCC's doing.  It has nothing to do with graft, corruption, 
political connections, or campaign contributions.  Just bad decisions 
made in a time of unnecessary panic by the FCC.


LS has simply played by the rules the FCC set out.  It acquired huge 
chunks of MSS spectrum (for which it paid), and has applied to the 
FCC for the waivers necessary to use the spectrum terrestrially but 
not necessarily in connection with satellite service.  The FCC 
granted the waivers, subject to the outcome of technical tests 
demonstrating that such use would not interfere with other spectrum 
users (primarily, GPS users).  A committee was convened to test and 
report.  The report was due on June 15, and from what has been 
leaked, it documents serious and widespread interference to GPS 
systems.  LS sought (and was granted) an extension until July 1 to 
submit the report.  Last week, LS announced that it intended to 
launch its service on spectrum lower in the band, in the hopes of 
avoiding GPS interference, at least for now.  GPS interests are still 
skeptical, and are still fighting.


Anyway, whatever corporate opportunism has been engaged in by LS and 
its owners, the fault here lies firmly with the FCC, not with LS and 
supposed bribes and back room deals.  As usual, conspiracy theories 
are readily explained by simple incompetence.


Best regards,

Charles



As some of us know, a company called Lightsquared used political
connections and campaign contributions to short circuit established
FCC procedures to obtain a band of frequencies for the cell phone
system they are developing.  Thanks to their political manipulations
they were able to avoid paying the billions for frequency spectrum
that AT&T, Sprint, Verizon and others have to pay.

But there is a fly in the ointment.  These frequencies are in bands reserved
for satellite transmission.  That is why Lightsquared got the allocation
without bidding and paying billions for them.  These frequencies are
adjacent to the GPS frequencies used by untold millions of users.
When Lightsquared transmits on these frequencies with powerful
ground based transmitters, GPS receivers stop working for several miles.

Now Lightsquared claims it is the responsibility of current GPS users to
buy new devices so Lightsquared can leverage their frequency
allocation.  These new GPS receivers  have yet to be designed.
Some critical applications may never be able to avoid Lightsquared's
signals.




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Re: [time-nuts] Transformer design.

[Will Matney]

John,

Thanks. I started that article back in 2006, originally at Wikipedia,
writing at least 80% of it, and actually added the portion on RF and
impedance transformers last year, if I recall. It got too big for
Wikipedias liking, and they moved it to Wikibooks. I noticed somebody added
a good deal on the manufacturing of large transformers, just now, or how
the coils are wound. I just hope it isn't copyrighted, as it looked to be a
copy and paste from another document, plus the English needs a bit of
cleaning up.

I encourage any on here to add to it, especially in the design of RF and
audio impedance transformers. I wanted to do more, but never found the time
to set down and do it, plus I never really designed that many of them, only
power transformers. What I wrote was the basics, but didn't get into any
formulae, etc, which I would have liked to have seen included. Any help
would be appreciated, not just by me, but our entire electrical and
electronics community as a whole, especially any students who read it. I
even found a link on Google, from a Russian university, who had their
students read it at one time.

Thanks,

Will

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 6/27/2011 at 10:59 AM J. Forster wrote:

>A good article, IMO.
>
>-John
>
>
>
>
>> For any interested in the link for the Wikibooks article on transformer
>> design, the link is below.
>>
>> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electronics/Transformer_Design
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Will
>>
>>
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>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Transformer design.

[J. Forster]

A good article, IMO.

-John




> For any interested in the link for the Wikibooks article on transformer
> design, the link is below.
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electronics/Transformer_Design
>
> Best,
>
> Will
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <4e086d33.6040...@ozindfw.net>, Oz-in-DFW writes:
>
>
>On 6/24/2011 9:20 PM, Will Matney wrote:
>> However, I should have
>> said, one should never run a 60 Hz transformer, or motor, on the same line
>> voltage it was rated for at a lower 50 Hz.
>Most modern commodity transformers for electronic power supplies are
>specified for rated performance from 47 to 63 Hz.

The only thing I know of, apart from clocks, that you should not run
on the wrong frequency are oldfashioned mechanical shavers.

If it has a motor you're fine, but if it just has a magnet and a
coil and relies on mechanical resonance: don't even think about it.

Anything else:  Just plug it in, after you checked the 110/200 V setting.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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[time-nuts] Transformer design.

[Will Matney]

For any interested in the link for the Wikibooks article on transformer
design, the link is below.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electronics/Transformer_Design

Best,

Will


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[time-nuts] Battery for Odetics GPStar

[Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R]

I tried the procedure given in the manual to initialize an
Odetics GPStar.  After a while it thought it was in Oz
because the satellites it was looking for were in that
region, not here.

So I cycled the power and put into SR mode.  It eventually
sorted things out and appears to be cheerfully chugging
along since.

The unit has a dead 3.6 volt soldered in battery.
Would a 3 volt replaceable battery be enough or is
the last 0.6 volts vital?

--
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com   www.omen.com
Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
  Omen Technology Inc  "The High Reliability Software"
10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231   503-614-0430


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Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party

[Will Matney]

Mark,

Transients, etc, might cause some hiccups, as I thought about this too.
Plus, there's not much one can do about them, unless you look at what
happened via a waveform, at the time.

Best,

Will

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 6/27/2011 at 9:43 AM Mark Spencer wrote:

>I once worked on a project in India where we had electrical problems
that went 
away when reportedly the building owners watered the building ground
system.   I 
never got an explanation if there was supposed to be a  functional
neutral 
connection or if the ground system was serving as the neutral.  


To get back on the 60 Hz measurement topic, I tried measuring the phase 
difference between the 60 Hz line here in BC and the 1pps output of my 
thunderbolt and a sample of the results are shown in the attached file.

I'm not sure if the results I am seeing are  valid or not.    My
signal source 
is a 16 volt doorbell transformer that feeds a voltage divider which in
turn 
feeds my 5370B with an approx 2 volt sine wave.   Setting the trigger
point on 
the 5370B to 0 volts appears to provide the best results and the sine
wave from 
the voltage divider looks to be clean on my scope.  But I'm
wondering if changes 
in line voltage could be confusing things.   


Regards
Mark Spencer






 


- Original Message 
From: Morris Odell 
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 4:31:26 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party

> >mean a second wire ?  Surely you do not mean they are using the earth
> (dirt) as a
> >return path ?  That would be terribly inefficient !  

Down here in Australia, Single Wire Earth Return (SWER) is common for long
rural lines. They run at 12.7 kv (one phase of a 22 kv 3 phase line). At
the
consumer end there is a pole mounted transformer and a fenced off earth
stake. It seems to work reasonably well even in dry conditions but you
occasionally hear stories of a large quadruped coming to nasty end if they
get inside the enclosure. Obviously there would be a radial potential field
in the ground and on the surface and quite a voltage can develop across
their legs.

Morris



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>
>
>__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
signature database 5851 (20110206) __
>
>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
>http://www.eset.com
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party

[Will Matney]

That made me laugh, as unsightly and farm seems to go well together (no
matter how you keep it cleaned up)! Wonder what he would have done, if
after he pulled the grounds, that he found a prized horse dead from
electrocution?

One thing about here in the US, well at least now, and after having the
NEC, is that an installation can't get past inspection without a ground rod
at the meter, and most times one at the pole too. Plus, if you have copper
or steel water pipe in the house, it's connected to gorund, and any natural
gas system piping is connected to a ground rod at its meter, or it should
be.

One would think that the earths resistance, especially in a dry climate,
would be too high to work correctly, at all, without having a neutral and
ground running with the hot. I would think you would get a lot of
brown-outs over this?  I learn something new every day.

Best,

Will

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 6/27/2011 at 12:02 PM Lee Mushel wrote:

>Well, I guess my response to your invitation to comment won't be any worse

>than "pip" time.   I live in a rural area where this so-called "stray 
>voltage" was a problem for years.   I guess no "real electrician" ever
said 
>anything because everyone was certain that a solution to such an obvious 
>problem would be known to everyone "tomorrow."   But it never happened! 
>And this so-called "mystery" went on for years!   And one day I got a
phone 
>call from my neighbor, "horse Bob" saying that his horses couldn't drink 
>from the water tank.   He was certain that they were receiving a "shock"
as 
>soon as their noses touched the water.
>
>I went down to his "paddock" and installed enough grounds to overcome the 
>general lack of such on his property and then went home.   The horses were

>drinking normally.   A couple of hours later he called and said "the
problem 
>is back."   A puzzled me went for another visit and discovered that he had

>removed all of my grounding provisions.   When I asked him why he had done

>that I was informed that "those wires and rods are unsightly."
>
>Lee   K9WRU
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Robert LaJeunesse" 
>To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
>
>Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 10:23 AM
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
>
>
>> Hmmm. The "Single Wire Earth Return" scheme seems like a great cause for

>> the
>> stray voltage that affects farmers:
>>
>> http://articles.ky3.com/2011-03-18/stray-voltage_29143748
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> From: Eric Garner 
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
>> 
>> Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 11:54:32 AM
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
>>
>> Did it sound like this:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return
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>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party

[Lee Mushel]

Well, I guess my response to your invitation to comment won't be any worse 
than "pip" time.   I live in a rural area where this so-called "stray 
voltage" was a problem for years.   I guess no "real electrician" ever said 
anything because everyone was certain that a solution to such an obvious 
problem would be known to everyone "tomorrow."   But it never happened! 
And this so-called "mystery" went on for years!   And one day I got a phone 
call from my neighbor, "horse Bob" saying that his horses couldn't drink 
from the water tank.   He was certain that they were receiving a "shock" as 
soon as their noses touched the water.


I went down to his "paddock" and installed enough grounds to overcome the 
general lack of such on his property and then went home.   The horses were 
drinking normally.   A couple of hours later he called and said "the problem 
is back."   A puzzled me went for another visit and discovered that he had 
removed all of my grounding provisions.   When I asked him why he had done 
that I was informed that "those wires and rods are unsightly."


Lee   K9WRU
- Original Message - 
From: "Robert LaJeunesse" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party


Hmmm. The "Single Wire Earth Return" scheme seems like a great cause for 
the

stray voltage that affects farmers:

http://articles.ky3.com/2011-03-18/stray-voltage_29143748





From: Eric Garner 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 


Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 11:54:32 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party

Did it sound like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return
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Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party

[Robert LaJeunesse]

Hmmm. The "Single Wire Earth Return" scheme seems like a great cause for the 
stray voltage that affects farmers:

http://articles.ky3.com/2011-03-18/stray-voltage_29143748





From: Eric Garner 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 11:54:32 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party

Did it sound like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return
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[time-nuts] LightSquared asks GPS makers and users to pay for their filters.

[Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R]

As some of us know, a company called Lightsquared used political
connections and campaign contributions to short circuit established
FCC procedures to obtain a band of frequencies for the cell phone
system they are developing.  Thanks to their political manipulations
they were able to avoid paying the billions for frequency spectrum
that AT&T, Sprint, Verizon and others have to pay.

But there is a fly in the ointment.  These frequencies are in bands reserved
for satellite transmission.  That is why Lightsquared got the allocation
without bidding and paying billions for them.  These frequencies are
adjacent to the GPS frequencies used by untold millions of users.
When Lightsquared transmits on these frequencies with powerful
ground based transmitters, GPS receivers stop working for several miles.

Now Lightsquared claims it is the responsibility of current GPS users to
buy new devices so Lightsquared can leverage their frequency
allocation.  These new GPS receivers  have yet to be designed.
Some critical applications may never be able to avoid Lightsquared's
signals.

http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/1940-full.html#204873

--
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com   www.omen.com
Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
  Omen Technology Inc  "The High Reliability Software"
10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231   503-614-0430


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Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party

[Eric Garner]

Did it sound like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return


On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 7:14 PM, WB6BNQ  wrote:
> Will,
>
> OK, that sounds normal to me.  Originally, your first description made it 
> seem as
> something completely different.
>
> I see nothing wrong with what you are now describing.  The fact that they are
> feeding short blocks via the "REAR ALLEY" from the main street is not unheard
> of.  And using just 2 wires is fine as there is no need to run a third wire if
> you are not going to use it.  Similar arrangements can be seen up in the San
> Francisco bay area in the old neighborhoods as they were laid out with the old
> East Coast thinking from well over a century ago.
>
> I am glad to see that they are not too backwards in your part of the country.
>
> billWB6BNQ
>
>
> Will Matney wrote:
>
>> Bill,
>>
>> I'm not sure what the voltage is, as I remember asking about it at one
>> time, when the transformer went belly up, and I think he said 4 kV, but I'm
>> not sure. Now, as to the neutral wire, it runs along the poles just under
>> the hot, and about even with the transformer. It's a two wire system, with
>> ground, they have running, and they feed about a two block stretch behind
>> two rows of houses (along our back yards). The insulated neutral is
>> carried, or supported, by an uninsulated aluminum cable, or ground, between
>> the poles. Actually, it's what they use to attach it to the side of the
>> pole with. There is a small spiral wire that wraps around the insulated
>> neutral and ground, and holds the two together in a bundle. In other words,
>> counting the hot on top of the pole, there would be three wires, a neutral,
>> ground, and a hot. They bug onto the neutral directly from the transformers
>> primary, and to the hot, on top of the pole, through the blow out fuse. Of
>> course the seconday carries the normal 220-110 Vac single phase into the
>> home, and that ground runs down the pole to a ground rod, which is also
>> tied to the ground (that runs with the neutral) from pole to pole, and is
>> attached to a ground rod at the home too.
>>
>> No, if they tried to use the earth as a return, that would be really bad
>> news, it's ground only. What they do here, is down by the highway, they
>> have a larger transformer, hooked to the three phase main line, that feeds
>> these different single phase lines to the rows of homes. About every row
>> goes to its own transformer at the end of the line, as I have been without
>> power, or my whole row has, and the row of houses in front of me, across
>> the street, and behind me, across that street, have power. That in turn
>> means that the fuse has opened down at the highway, at that transformer
>> bank, over a short up this line somewhere, generally due to a tree limb
>> making contact with the hot on the top of the pole.
>>
>> I don't have a photo of the pole here, but all we have is a pole with a
>> single insulator on the tip top. It has no means of carrying multiple hots
>> like you describe on arms, for the three phases. Just below the hot, about
>> two feet down the pole, is where the ground and neutral run. That is also
>> about the top of the transformers that feed the homes here. The only thing
>> we have that set up like your speaking of is down by the highway. You would
>> have to know AEP, as they are bad to undersize everything, especially
>> transformers. Here, they had five houses running off a transformer meant
>> for two, or three at the most, until it finally gave out. I complained,
>> they sent up a supreviser, and they upsized it, and we've had no more
>> trouble.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Will
>>
>> *** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***
>>
>> On 6/26/2011 at 5:52 PM WB6BNQ wrote:
>>
>> ?Will,
>> ?
>> ?What you describe does NOT make sense.  When you say nuetral or ground do
>> you
>> ?mean a second wire ?  Surely you do not mean they are using the earth
>> (dirt) as a
>> ?return path ?  That would be terribly inefficient !  Equally, if the 220
>> center
>> ?tap is earthed along with one side of the higher voltage from the primary
>> side of
>> ?the transformer, then I could see where some serious issues if the return
>> path
>> ?gets interrupted but the center tap and return line from the transformer
>> are
>> ?still connected.
>> ?
>> ?If I am understanding what you are saying, such a layout would not provide
>> a very
>> ?reliable operation for the last drop point if it is a very long run.
>> ?
>> ?Just how long are these single wire runs ?  Do you know what the voltage
>> is on
>> ?that top wire ?
>> ?
>> ?Could you clarify this a bit more ?
>> ?
>> ?BillWB6BNQ
>> ?
>> ?
>> ?Will Matney wrote:
>> ?
>> ?? Bill,
>> ??
>> ?? I wish it was that way here, but it's not, only along the highway where
>> the
>> ?? general business is located. Now, across the Ohio River, on the
>> Huntington,
>> ?? WV side, it is more insudtrial, and they do have it in places as your
>> ?? thinking of, all through

Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party

[William H. Fite]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 7:18 AM, Morris Odell wrote:

>
> I love this thread on the old style large synchronous motors. My first
> engineering job was in a paper mill where they had quite a few of them on
> various machines including the Ward Leonard sets that controlled the paper
> machines. We were continually tweaking the excitation to try and get the
> overall power factor down...
>
> Morris
>


That sure brought back memories.  I grew up in a little town with a large
paper mill and I well remember, as a pre-teen, admiring the huge motors that
powered the Fourdrinier machines and listening as the tour guide explained
that they were synchronous motors and kept the machines running at a
constant speed.  Also exciting and mysterious were the enormous Jordan
machines that reduced the size of pulp fibers.  Giant, rapidly-spinning
cones (driven by really big DC motors) that made a sound like all the flying
saucers on Mars landing at once.

>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination

[Will Matney]

Oz,

Some companies in the US are producing 50 hz transformers in their mass
produced units so they can readily sell them to the European market and
here. That is a plus for us, if we buy one, as they will run a lot cooler,
and last longer over it, when we apply 60 Hz to one. There's a bit more of
an amount of iron in a 50 Hz, which means for the applied line voltage, the
flux density will be lower, and thus, the whole thing will run cooler.
However, for a European, 50 Hz, transformer, you'll have a multiple
primary, if it's made to run here or there, as if I recall, their line
voltage is about double what ours is.

When I wrote most of the Wikibooks article on Transformer Design, I did a
major study on transformers, and probably now have 30+ books on the subject
alone. Some of the better information I read was written by Col. William T
McLyman, in his series of books on the design of transformers for NASA.
Another good book was written by engineers at MIT, and they still update
it, since it was written in the 1940's. From them, though, I learned a good
deal about their construction from wall-wart size, all they way up to the
huge oil-filled ones, now sitiing at our power stations. Plus, I used to
sell equipment to Kuhlman Electric, in Lexington, Ky., and another
transformer manufacturer in Cincinnati, Foster Transformer, and was privy
to how they built the things.

Best,

Will

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 6/27/2011 at 6:44 AM Oz-in-DFW wrote:

>On 6/24/2011 9:20 PM, Will Matney wrote:
>> However, I should have
>> said, one should never run a 60 Hz transformer, or motor, on the same
line
>> voltage it was rated for at a lower 50 Hz.
>Most modern commodity transformers for electronic power supplies are
>specified for rated performance from 47 to 63 Hz.
>
>Most power distribution system products for use in the US I've seen are
>rated at 60 ± 3 Hz though some stuff from European manufacturers is
>rated at ± 2.5 Hz.  I guess it's a holdover from 50 Hz specs. 
>
>The power companies seem to spec normal variation at a max of 0.1 Hz
>though I understand the max offset they use by agreement for phase
>adjustment is about 0.02 Hz.
>
>A lot of large machinery has a a great deal of independence from the AC
>line frequency.  Even a 60 year old paper mill I did some work for had a
>mechanical phase adjustment driven by large DC motors on the machines in
>their line.  IIRC the controls guy said they could compensate for 1 Hz
>line frequency variations over 10 seconds. This was a lot faster than I
>expected.  Paper mills have lots of spinning mass that takes a long time
>to influence.
>
>Oz (in DFW)
>
>-- 
>mailto:o...@ozindfw.net
>Oz
>POB 93167 
>Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) 
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination

[Oz-in-DFW]

On 6/24/2011 9:20 PM, Will Matney wrote:
> However, I should have
> said, one should never run a 60 Hz transformer, or motor, on the same line
> voltage it was rated for at a lower 50 Hz.
Most modern commodity transformers for electronic power supplies are
specified for rated performance from 47 to 63 Hz.

Most power distribution system products for use in the US I've seen are
rated at 60 ± 3 Hz though some stuff from European manufacturers is
rated at ± 2.5 Hz.  I guess it's a holdover from 50 Hz specs. 

The power companies seem to spec normal variation at a max of 0.1 Hz
though I understand the max offset they use by agreement for phase
adjustment is about 0.02 Hz.

A lot of large machinery has a a great deal of independence from the AC
line frequency.  Even a 60 year old paper mill I did some work for had a
mechanical phase adjustment driven by large DC motors on the machines in
their line.  IIRC the controls guy said they could compensate for 1 Hz
line frequency variations over 10 seconds. This was a lot faster than I
expected.  Paper mills have lots of spinning mass that takes a long time
to influence.

Oz (in DFW)

-- 
mailto:o...@ozindfw.net
Oz
POB 93167 
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) 





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Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party

[Morris Odell]

> >mean a second wire ?  Surely you do not mean they are using the earth
> (dirt) as a
> >return path ?  That would be terribly inefficient !  

Down here in Australia, Single Wire Earth Return (SWER) is common for long
rural lines. They run at 12.7 kv (one phase of a 22 kv 3 phase line). At the
consumer end there is a pole mounted transformer and a fenced off earth
stake. It seems to work reasonably well even in dry conditions but you
occasionally hear stories of a large quadruped coming to nasty end if they
get inside the enclosure. Obviously there would be a radial potential field
in the ground and on the surface and quite a voltage can develop across
their legs.

Morris



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Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party

[Morris Odell]

 
> > That sounds like a recipe for excitement - DC current into seawater
> should generate hydrogen on one and and oxygen on the other electrode.
> At 3000 amps, rather a lot of it.
> >
> 
> I imagine they keep the current density low enough that the gas is
> absorbed into the water as it's evolved.  But yes.. a fascinating
> concept.
**

Actually if you electrolyse salt water with DC you get Hydrogen & Chlorine
at the electrodes and sodium hydroxide dissolved in the water. That's how
salt water pool chlorinators work and why the pool get progressively
alkaline and needs to have hydrochloric acid added regularly to make up for
what's released by electrolytic action. Hopefully if it gets released in the
ocean the Cl2 gets reabsorbed quickly and the caustic soda gets diluted or
buffered. The H2 would end up in the atmosphere as it's not very water
soluble. 

I love this thread on the old style large synchronous motors. My first
engineering job was in a paper mill where they had quite a few of them on
various machines including the Ward Leonard sets that controlled the paper
machines. We were continually tweaking the excitation to try and get the
overall power factor down...

Morris



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Re: [time-nuts] How accurate are cheap radio controlled clocks?

[Ron Smith]

David,

I think Radio 4 on 198 kHz is straight through analogue - no digital 
buffering with its inherent delays. Yesterday afternoon (1200 UTC I think), 
I listened to the BBC pips from Droitwich at the same time as the pips from 
RWM on 9,996 kHz, and I watched the second-hand of my Steiger 
radio-controlled clock. All three were in exact synchronism - no error 
between them, as closely as the ear and the eye could tell.


Are there different ways these radio-controlled clocks are synched to time 
signals? I have never seen any perceivable error between my clocks and 
analogue broadcast "pips" from MSF, RWM or WWV, so I don't think the synch 
scheme is a corrective one. I will try keeping one of my clocks in a Faraday 
screen for a while to see how far it drifts in terms of time.


I know of the other two 198 kHz transmitters at Westerglen and Burghead, but 
don't know whether they have the same accuracy as Droitwich's frequency 
standard. Do they carry the same phase modulation as Droitwich for 
teleswitching?


Ron, G3SVW
Manchester






- Original Message - 
From: "Dr. David Kirkby" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] How accurate are cheap radio controlled clocks?



On 06/26/11 07:25 AM, David J Taylor wrote:

I've got one of the cheap radio-controlled clocks? I was listing to
radio 4 the other day and herd the time signal. The radio controlled
clock was about 3 seconds off. I was a bit surprised it was so far
off. I'm just wondering how accurate these things are.


David,

Be aware that if listening via digital radio (or worse, digital TV)
there is a delay in the transmission chain of up to several seconds
(DTV). I expect you know that already! Use the FM signal for best 
results.


I was using 198.00 kHz longwave here in the UK. Unless there's some 
digital processing going on before the signal is AM modulated, this can't 
explain the problem.


--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

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