Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A firmware dump

[Chris Albertson]

Email some of the sellers in China and offer to buy a returned unit.
they must have some

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 5:55 PM, EB4APL  wrote:
> I don't mind sending something like $5 to a "buy group" and we'll have
> enough with a few of us.  But if I were Elio I'll not feel very happy using
> a working unit for this kind of use,


Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A's suitability for use as a 10 MHz reference for microwave transverters

[Bruce Griffiths]

paul swed wrote:

Clint a good read and a fine approach.
   


If and only if the high phase noise pedestal exhibited by the buffer 
amplifier that extends to offsets of a few hundred kHz or so isn't an issue.

The relatively low isolation between the 10MHz outputs may also be an issue.


By accident I looked at the original filter schematic first and believe it
has an error for the first output amplifier. The 470 ohm resistors in the
wrong location.
Others on the list have mentioned the same thing about the 5680s output
being dirty. You have that fixed up nicely.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 4:03 PM, C. Turner  wrote:

   

Bruce

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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A firmware dump

[EB4APL]

I don't mind sending something like $5 to a "buy group" and we'll have 
enough with a few of us.  But if I were Elio I'll not feel very happy 
using a working unit for this kind of use, I would try to not break 
anything and he is even talking of removing the programmable chips to 
read them in a programmer!.  Anyway I'm recognize that a working unit 
could be advantageous for some tests.

So if anybody wants to collect the money, let me know.

Regards,
Ignacio, EB4APL


On 13/02/2012 4:22, Peter Gottlieb wrote:
Better idea.  Let's all donate a few bucks each and buy Elio an intact 
one.


Peter


On 2/12/2012 8:08 PM, EB4APL wrote:

Hi,

Has anybody tried to ask the guy who made the forensics in Youtube if 
he could send the remnants to Elio?  He could make a very good use of 
them.


Regards,
Ignacio, EB4APL

El 07/02/2012 0:30, Elio Corbolante wrote:

From: "Steve ."

I've been considering ripping the firmware from the mcu as well.  
I've not
got beyond the consideration stages, but i have all the equipment 
here at
work. When you say that the read option is not available. is this 
because

the chip has protection fuses enabled?

Also, what programmer do you have, Here at work I have a galep-5 which
AFAIK can read both the mcu and cpld/fgpa/pga, whatever it is 
(provided

they are not locked, or the state machine encrypted)

My programmer is a MQP Pin-Master 48  
which

directly support the PSD chip via JTAG (JAM STAPL files).
According to this 
document:  the

programmer does not support "auxiliary" functions like "reading" the
device, but only erase/program/verify.

The official programmer/software (FlashLINK/PSDsoft Express)<
http://www.st.com/internet/com/SOFTWARE_RESOURCES/TOOL/CONFIGURATION_UTILITY/um0050.zip> 

permits to "dump" the content of the PSD in an .obj file, but at 
this date

I have not this programmer and I have to build it<
http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL_LITERATURE/USER_MANUAL/CD4566.pdf> 


:-(

If you are able to dump the software using your Galep 5, you are 
welcome!!!

:-)
Otherwise my two options will be:
1) to build a FlashLINK clone, hoping the PSD contents are not 
protected:

according to this document<
http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL_LITERATURE/USER_MANUAL/CD4566.pdf> 

(Pag. 17) the protection flag can't be enabled using the JTAG 
interface...

2) to remove the PSD chip and read its contents using a different
microprocessor (this will work for certain)

_  Elio.
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Question

[paul swed]

The patterns simply the lead in to lock. Coming from a known position low
in frequency...
Nothing magical

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 7:48 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Some numbers:
>
> C field tuning on a Rb like an FRS or an LPRO is about 2 to 6 ppb
> DDS tuning on the "new" FE's is in the 1 to 10 ppm range (1000x larger)
> DDS tuning on the "old" FE's was about 10% without mods, much wider with
> minor tuning.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> On Feb 13, 2012, at 2:16 PM, Erno Peres  wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi Chris,
> >
> > thanks for the info. My second problem is that the unit is in locked
> position
> > after powering up but after about 5-8min  the freq goes down slowly
> about 9.999.997.3 Hz and the lock ind level is still low.
> > Also noticed that during the sweep  the max freq is 10.000.004 Hz and
> the min freq is 9.999.750 Hz..
> > I assume that I have to open up the unit and try to re tune  the 10Mhz
> sweep osci.. let say  from  9.999.900  to 10.000.100 at least.
> > Any suggestion
> >
> > Thanks and regards,
> > Ernie.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Chris Albertson 
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
> time-nuts@febo.com>
> > Sent: Mon, Feb 13, 2012 7:32 pm
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Question
> >
> >
> >> From the label I can see it requires +5 Volt but no info about the
> > S232...
> > Can I adjust the " C " field from the DB9 connector
> > On the units that require 5V you can adjust the frequency using rs-232
> > ut only within a very small range around 10MHz.  Some of the
> > ocumentation applies to other types of this same model oscillator.
> > Chris Albertson
> > edondo Beach, California
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Question

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Some numbers:

C field tuning on a Rb like an FRS or an LPRO is about 2 to 6 ppb
DDS tuning on the "new" FE's is in the 1 to 10 ppm range (1000x larger)
DDS tuning on the "old" FE's was about 10% without mods, much wider with minor 
tuning.

Bob



On Feb 13, 2012, at 2:16 PM, Erno Peres  wrote:

> 
> Hi Chris,
> 
> thanks for the info. My second problem is that the unit is in locked position
> after powering up but after about 5-8min  the freq goes down slowly about 
> 9.999.997.3 Hz and the lock ind level is still low.
> Also noticed that during the sweep  the max freq is 10.000.004 Hz and the min 
> freq is 9.999.750 Hz..
> I assume that I have to open up the unit and try to re tune  the 10Mhz sweep 
> osci.. let say  from  9.999.900  to 10.000.100 at least.
> Any suggestion
> 
> Thanks and regards,
> Ernie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson 
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
> Sent: Mon, Feb 13, 2012 7:32 pm
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Question
> 
> 
>> From the label I can see it requires +5 Volt but no info about the 
> S232...
> Can I adjust the " C " field from the DB9 connector
> On the units that require 5V you can adjust the frequency using rs-232
> ut only within a very small range around 10MHz.  Some of the
> ocumentation applies to other types of this same model oscillator.
> Chris Albertson
> edondo Beach, California
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Question

[Bob Camp]

Hi

If they are looking for a pattern what is the pattern?

Bob



On Feb 13, 2012, at 3:35 PM, paul swed  wrote:

> The reason to sweep low is to establish a particular lock pattern to look
> for.
> Check the programmed offset before retuning. Mine was at mid range 
> Search the threads for sending commands to the FE5680.
> 
> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> For what ever reason, most of the FE's sweep down to about 200 to 250 Hz
>> low. Few sweep more than 50 Hz high. I have one unit that locks fine and
>> only sweeps 5 Hz high.
>> 
>> Yes, I would open it up and re-tune. I think I would only bump it about 50
>> Hz or so. I have no idea *why* they are all tuned low, but there may be a
>> reason (like avoiding a false lock).
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
>> Behalf Of Erno Peres
>> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 2:17 PM
>> To: time-nuts@febo.com
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Question
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Chris,
>> 
>> thanks for the info. My second problem is that the unit is in locked
>> position
>> after powering up but after about 5-8min  the freq goes down slowly
>> about 9.999.997.3 Hz and the lock ind level is still low.
>> Also noticed that during the sweep  the max freq is 10.000.004 Hz and the
>> min freq is 9.999.750 Hz..
>> I assume that I have to open up the unit and try to re tune  the 10Mhz
>> sweep
>> osci.. let say  from  9.999.900  to 10.000.100 at least.
>> Any suggestion
>> 
>> Thanks and regards,
>> Ernie.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Chris Albertson 
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> 
>> Sent: Mon, Feb 13, 2012 7:32 pm
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Question
>> 
>> 
>>> From the label I can see it requires +5 Volt but no info about the
>> S232...
>> Can I adjust the " C " field from the DB9 connector
>> On the units that require 5V you can adjust the frequency using rs-232
>> ut only within a very small range around 10MHz.  Some of the
>> ocumentation applies to other types of this same model oscillator.
>> Chris Albertson
>> edondo Beach, California
>> ___
>> ime-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> o unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> nd follow the instructions there.
>> 
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>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> 
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>> 
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[time-nuts] FE5680A square-wave output

[bob grant]

I'm not that fond of the way in which 10MHz is made available on a DB9.
But there's a vacant site for an AC161 on the FE5680 PCB to perform a /6 
operation from the 60MHz crystal. To good an opportunity to miss up

Here is some pics of the mod.

http://s1090.photobucket.com/albums/i370/bobgrant1/TimeNutz/?albumview=slideshow

There is scant decoupling here, and it shows up as 6 blips in 
high/low signal levels whenever there is a signal transition.

I needed to add a tantalum, X7R, C0G and a small piece of FR4 with Cu
tape.
The output is on a RG178 SMA pigtail. 

Series termination worked best with 47R and 330R in parallel delivering
a reasonably nice 5V signal.


Earlier you may recall the "Why a 10MHz sinewave?" thread, and for those 
there are component sites for 390p and 1uH which make a wide bandpass
filter.


Have fun










-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service


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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A's suitability for use as a 10 MHz reference for microwave transverters

[paul swed]

Clint a good read and a fine approach.
By accident I looked at the original filter schematic first and believe it
has an error for the first output amplifier. The 470 ohm resistors in the
wrong location.
Others on the list have mentioned the same thing about the 5680s output
being dirty. You have that fixed up nicely.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 4:03 PM, C. Turner  wrote:

> Last week I noted that the FE-5680A's "barefoot" output was found to NOT
> be a suitable 10 MHz reference for microwave transverters.  Specifically, I
> tested it on two different 10 GHz transverters and found there to be
> objectionable levels of "grunge" on signals caused by low-level phase
> modulation internal to the '5680A and at 10 GHz the result of this phase
> modulation was a racket of audible and subaudible noises on CW carriers
> that made it difficult to find zero beat!  In comparison, the 10 MHz
> outputs of the Z3801, Isotemp VCXO and LPRO-101 yielded results at 10 GHz
> that were quite clean.  Related observations were also made by N8UR in his
> web page comparing various units.
>
> In order to clean up the output of the FE-5680A I did the obvious thing,
> disciplining a homebrew VCXO to its output - details are found here:
>
> http://www.ka7oei.com/10_MHz_**Rubidium_FE-5680A.html
>
> While the comparison frequency is fairly high (1.25 MHz) the loop gain and
> bandwidth are quite low so it's pretty much the Butler oscillator VCXO that
> determines the phase noise of the 10 MHz output and I can't detect any
> audible artifacts from the '5680A at all.  At the moment I don't have the
> means of generating a "pristine" test signal at 10368 MHz, but from what I
> can determine, the resulting CW notes from the transverter (being locked to
> the "regenerated" output of the the '5680A) compared to the other 10 MHz
> sources sound the same.  At some point I hope to do a more-detailed
> analysis.
>
> Had I a low-noise "canned" 10 MHz VCXO around, I'd have probably used that
> rather than go through the hassle of building the oscillator, but none of
> the 10 MHz VCXOs that I *did* have on hand produced as good a CW note as
> the Butler built around a cheap microprocessor-type crystal.  I also had on
> hand some 10 MHz ovenized VCXOs which would have worked fine, but not only
> were these too large to fit in the box, they would have added even more
> current consumption to an already power-hungry frequency source - an
> important consideration when operating from a battery!
>
> There are, no doubt, a number of ways one could do this same thing, but
> it's clear that this simple of a circuit will do an admirable job of
> extracting the frequency stability of the FE-5680A without the
> synthesis-related artifacts.  Of course, the regenerated 10 MHz output will
> have a degree of variable phase offset with respect to the '5680A's
> "barefoot" 10 MHz output over varying conditions (such as temperature) but
> when used only as a frequency reference these rather slow changes are
> unimportant.
>
> 73,
>
> Clint
> KA7OEI
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A's suitability for use as a 10 MHz reference for microwave transverters

[C. Turner]

Last week I noted that the FE-5680A's "barefoot" output was found to NOT 
be a suitable 10 MHz reference for microwave transverters.  
Specifically, I tested it on two different 10 GHz transverters and found 
there to be objectionable levels of "grunge" on signals caused by 
low-level phase modulation internal to the '5680A and at 10 GHz the 
result of this phase modulation was a racket of audible and subaudible 
noises on CW carriers that made it difficult to find zero beat!  In 
comparison, the 10 MHz outputs of the Z3801, Isotemp VCXO and LPRO-101 
yielded results at 10 GHz that were quite clean.  Related observations 
were also made by N8UR in his web page comparing various units.


In order to clean up the output of the FE-5680A I did the obvious thing, 
disciplining a homebrew VCXO to its output - details are found here:


http://www.ka7oei.com/10_MHz_Rubidium_FE-5680A.html

While the comparison frequency is fairly high (1.25 MHz) the loop gain 
and bandwidth are quite low so it's pretty much the Butler oscillator 
VCXO that determines the phase noise of the 10 MHz output and I can't 
detect any audible artifacts from the '5680A at all.  At the moment I 
don't have the means of generating a "pristine" test signal at 10368 
MHz, but from what I can determine, the resulting CW notes from the 
transverter (being locked to the "regenerated" output of the the '5680A) 
compared to the other 10 MHz sources sound the same.  At some point I 
hope to do a more-detailed analysis.


Had I a low-noise "canned" 10 MHz VCXO around, I'd have probably used 
that rather than go through the hassle of building the oscillator, but 
none of the 10 MHz VCXOs that I *did* have on hand produced as good a CW 
note as the Butler built around a cheap microprocessor-type crystal.  I 
also had on hand some 10 MHz ovenized VCXOs which would have worked 
fine, but not only were these too large to fit in the box, they would 
have added even more current consumption to an already power-hungry 
frequency source - an important consideration when operating from a battery!


There are, no doubt, a number of ways one could do this same thing, but 
it's clear that this simple of a circuit will do an admirable job of 
extracting the frequency stability of the FE-5680A without the 
synthesis-related artifacts.  Of course, the regenerated 10 MHz output 
will have a degree of variable phase offset with respect to the '5680A's 
"barefoot" 10 MHz output over varying conditions (such as temperature) 
but when used only as a frequency reference these rather slow changes 
are unimportant.


73,

Clint
KA7OEI


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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Question

[paul swed]

The reason to sweep low is to establish a particular lock pattern to look
for.
Check the programmed offset before retuning. Mine was at mid range 
Search the threads for sending commands to the FE5680.

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> For what ever reason, most of the FE's sweep down to about 200 to 250 Hz
> low. Few sweep more than 50 Hz high. I have one unit that locks fine and
> only sweeps 5 Hz high.
>
> Yes, I would open it up and re-tune. I think I would only bump it about 50
> Hz or so. I have no idea *why* they are all tuned low, but there may be a
> reason (like avoiding a false lock).
>
> Bob
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Erno Peres
> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 2:17 PM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Question
>
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> thanks for the info. My second problem is that the unit is in locked
> position
> after powering up but after about 5-8min  the freq goes down slowly
> about 9.999.997.3 Hz and the lock ind level is still low.
> Also noticed that during the sweep  the max freq is 10.000.004 Hz and the
> min freq is 9.999.750 Hz..
> I assume that I have to open up the unit and try to re tune  the 10Mhz
> sweep
> osci.. let say  from  9.999.900  to 10.000.100 at least.
> Any suggestion
>
> Thanks and regards,
> Ernie.
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson 
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 
> Sent: Mon, Feb 13, 2012 7:32 pm
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Question
>
>
> > From the label I can see it requires +5 Volt but no info about the
> S232...
>  Can I adjust the " C " field from the DB9 connector
> On the units that require 5V you can adjust the frequency using rs-232
> ut only within a very small range around 10MHz.  Some of the
> ocumentation applies to other types of this same model oscillator.
> Chris Albertson
> edondo Beach, California
> ___
> ime-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> o unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Question

[Bob Camp]

Hi

For what ever reason, most of the FE's sweep down to about 200 to 250 Hz
low. Few sweep more than 50 Hz high. I have one unit that locks fine and
only sweeps 5 Hz high.

Yes, I would open it up and re-tune. I think I would only bump it about 50
Hz or so. I have no idea *why* they are all tuned low, but there may be a
reason (like avoiding a false lock).

Bob  

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Erno Peres
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 2:17 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Question


Hi Chris,

thanks for the info. My second problem is that the unit is in locked
position
after powering up but after about 5-8min  the freq goes down slowly
about 9.999.997.3 Hz and the lock ind level is still low.
Also noticed that during the sweep  the max freq is 10.000.004 Hz and the
min freq is 9.999.750 Hz..
I assume that I have to open up the unit and try to re tune  the 10Mhz sweep
osci.. let say  from  9.999.900  to 10.000.100 at least.
Any suggestion

Thanks and regards,
Ernie.




-Original Message-
From: Chris Albertson 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Sent: Mon, Feb 13, 2012 7:32 pm
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Question


> From the label I can see it requires +5 Volt but no info about the 
S232...
 Can I adjust the " C " field from the DB9 connector
On the units that require 5V you can adjust the frequency using rs-232
ut only within a very small range around 10MHz.  Some of the
ocumentation applies to other types of this same model oscillator.
Chris Albertson
edondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Question

[Erno Peres]

Hi Chris,

thanks for the info. My second problem is that the unit is in locked position
after powering up but after about 5-8min  the freq goes down slowly about 
9.999.997.3 Hz and the lock ind level is still low.
Also noticed that during the sweep  the max freq is 10.000.004 Hz and the min 
freq is 9.999.750 Hz..
I assume that I have to open up the unit and try to re tune  the 10Mhz sweep 
osci.. let say  from  9.999.900  to 10.000.100 at least.
Any suggestion

Thanks and regards,
Ernie.




-Original Message-
From: Chris Albertson 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
Sent: Mon, Feb 13, 2012 7:32 pm
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Question


> From the label I can see it requires +5 Volt but no info about the 
S232...
 Can I adjust the " C " field from the DB9 connector
On the units that require 5V you can adjust the frequency using rs-232
ut only within a very small range around 10MHz.  Some of the
ocumentation applies to other types of this same model oscillator.
Chris Albertson
edondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Question

[Chris Albertson]

> From the label I can see it requires +5 Volt but no info about the 
> RS232...
> Can I adjust the " C " field from the DB9 connector

On the units that require 5V you can adjust the frequency using rs-232
but only within a very small range around 10MHz.  Some of the
documentation applies to other types of this same model oscillator.

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] GPS lock of the FE5680. Current experiment andquestion

[paul swed]

Bob
LH is attractive indeed, but the total layout for the receiver and such,
plus I learn not a thing from doing that really is the answer. Heck I can
just use the HP3801.

I have already learned quite a bit. How to control the EFC and the range
and such (Tuning sensitivity) Worked with a new D/A converter and I have to
say its really nice. Tried a method thats suitable to an unstable higher
drift oscillator but not useful for a reasonable RB. Yup lots of
learning. So thats the driver.

I have taken a look at the time to voltage methods and also now appreciate
"Interpolation" yes indeed been familiar and certainly read the HP docs on
the 5370 and 5360 counters. But now I really have a reason to dig in.
Still thinking about the sine wave approach of TVC with the limitations of
analog devices sample and hold, or going with a more traditional T to V
approach. 10 Mhz seems to be a tricky region.
I would say the goal of the project is to get the RB under control faster.
Eliminating a sample time of 100K for instance. I really did not approach
this correctly from the start. That is that the RB really is pretty stable.
(I know well known) And the fallout of that effort was the wrong technique
to start with.
Regards
Paul

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Necessary question now that you see some of what's in the swamp:
>
> Are you sure you want to do this from scratch rather than lock the FE up to
> the 10 MHz output of a TBolt?
>
> I'm by no means trying to say that there's an obvious answer here. Only
> that
> it's at least worth asking the question. To me the big thing that the TBolt
> brings is LH as a debug / checkout tool...
>
> Bob
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of paul swed
> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2012 1:04 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS lock of the FE5680. Current experiment
> andquestion
>
> Looks like analog devices makes a pretty nice sample and hold chip. A bit
> pricey.
> But can't really work at 10 MC so that would complicate things
>
> On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 10:54 AM, paul swed  wrote:
>
> > Getting very interesting.
> > Bob had mentioned just sample the 10 MC sine wave. What I used to do on
> > homebrew Loran C.
> >
> > Thats easier to do because today its nothing to buffer that 10 MC signal
> > to drive a fast sample and hold. This eliminates the ramp circuitry and
> > constant current sources used in the ramp and tempco effects.
> >
> > This all seems to work out reasonably because the 5680s are in general
> > pretty darn stable. (Boy is that a relative term in time-nuts land)
> >
> > Now to dig through the ole junk box for a sample and hold chips. Most
> > likely older and useless. Go hunting at mouser or digikey for modern
> stuff.
> > Hate to have to go to discrete pulsed diodes.
> > Regards
> > Paul.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 10:33 AM, Azelio Boriani <
> azelio.bori...@screen.it
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> This is the simplest part if a microprocessor can be used: by the serial
> >> port you get the sawtooth correction in nS to be applied to the sampled
> >> data. The sampled data must be converted to nS or the sawtooth
> correction
> >> must  be converted in a suitable sampled data correction. It is possible
> >> even to hardware correct the PPS with a delay line before using it  (see
> >> the already mentioned gpstime.com/files/tow-time2011.pdf by Tom Clarck
> >> and
> >> Rick Hambly).
> >>
> >> On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hi
> >> >
> >> > Another way to build an analog phase detector...
> >> >
> >> > Next layer on the onion is how to get the sawtooth correction out of
> the
> >> > GPS and into your loop.
> >> >
> >> > Bob
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Feb 11, 2012, at 12:05 AM, Chris Albertson <
> >> albertson.ch...@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > All these different suggestions build down to one thing, the
> precision
> >> > > with which you measure the phase when you sample it each second.
>  The
> >> > > single flip flop will tell you which half cycle. a simple two bit
> >> > > counter made with two '74 FFs tells you which half cycle and with
> >> > > direction.
> >> > >
> >> > > The "best" maybe  is if you let the PPS set a FF and the 10MHz reset
> >> > > it.  The FF's output gates a constant current to a capacitor and
> >> > > charges it to some voltage.  Then you measure that with a 10-bit
> ADC.
> >> > >  This measures the phase to maybe 1%, gives you direction and is
> >> > > pretty cheap to build
> >> > >
> >> > > Let's see if I have the numbers right?  If you check a 10MHz signal
> >> > > once per second with just the FF then you have 1E-7.  You would need
> >> > > 1000 seconds for 1E-10.   But if you measure phase to 1/10th of a
> >> > > cycle you get to 1E-10   ten faster.  Right?
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Chris Albertson
> >> > > Redondo Beach

Re: [time-nuts] Morion MV89A pics

[Azelio Boriani]

OK, I'll take pictures of the MV201.

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 6:34 PM, Scott Newell wrote:

> At 03:50 AM 2/13/2012, Azelio Boriani wrote:
>
>> I have always thought the space inside the cover was the outer oven... now
>> I realize this is not quite correct but then the MV201, specified as a
>> double-oven, can't be a double-oven. The MV201 has the crystal under a
>> sort
>>
>
> I just checked the MV201 online.  Neither the English webpage nor the
> datasheet claim it's a double oven.
>
> The MV180, MV209, MV216, MV268 and the MV89 all appear to be DOXCOs.
>
>
>
>  structure is the only oven and the MV201 can't be a double oven OCXO... I
>> have an MV201 open right now: can take pictures.
>>
>
> Please do!
>
>
>
> --
> newell  N5TNL
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Morion MV89A pics

[Scott Newell]

At 03:50 AM 2/13/2012, Azelio Boriani wrote:

I have always thought the space inside the cover was the outer oven... now
I realize this is not quite correct but then the MV201, specified as a
double-oven, can't be a double-oven. The MV201 has the crystal under a sort


I just checked the MV201 online.  Neither the English webpage nor the 
datasheet claim it's a double oven.


The MV180, MV209, MV216, MV268 and the MV89 all appear to be DOXCOs.



structure is the only oven and the MV201 can't be a double oven OCXO... I
have an MV201 open right now: can take pictures.


Please do!


--
newell  N5TNL 



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Re: [time-nuts] GPS fade out, Sat/Sun

[gary]

http://spaceweather.com/


The coronal mass ejection is due on the 13th through 14th.

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Re: [time-nuts] Morion MV89A pics

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Hook up +12 to the case and ground the Vref line. There's always a way to
create smoke :)...

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Scott Newell
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 12:13 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Morion MV89A pics

At 11:10 AM 2/13/2012, Bob Camp wrote:
>trash the unit. Of course if somebody has one they hooked up backwards on
>the supply...

I doubt that would do it--there appears to be a series Schottky on 
the power input line.

-- 
newell  N5TNL 


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Re: [time-nuts] GPS lock of the FE5680. Current experiment andquestion

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Necessary question now that you see some of what's in the swamp:

Are you sure you want to do this from scratch rather than lock the FE up to
the 10 MHz output of a TBolt?

I'm by no means trying to say that there's an obvious answer here. Only that
it's at least worth asking the question. To me the big thing that the TBolt
brings is LH as a debug / checkout tool...

Bob 

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2012 1:04 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS lock of the FE5680. Current experiment
andquestion

Looks like analog devices makes a pretty nice sample and hold chip. A bit
pricey.
But can't really work at 10 MC so that would complicate things

On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 10:54 AM, paul swed  wrote:

> Getting very interesting.
> Bob had mentioned just sample the 10 MC sine wave. What I used to do on
> homebrew Loran C.
>
> Thats easier to do because today its nothing to buffer that 10 MC signal
> to drive a fast sample and hold. This eliminates the ramp circuitry and
> constant current sources used in the ramp and tempco effects.
>
> This all seems to work out reasonably because the 5680s are in general
> pretty darn stable. (Boy is that a relative term in time-nuts land)
>
> Now to dig through the ole junk box for a sample and hold chips. Most
> likely older and useless. Go hunting at mouser or digikey for modern
stuff.
> Hate to have to go to discrete pulsed diodes.
> Regards
> Paul.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 10:33 AM, Azelio Boriani  > wrote:
>
>> This is the simplest part if a microprocessor can be used: by the serial
>> port you get the sawtooth correction in nS to be applied to the sampled
>> data. The sampled data must be converted to nS or the sawtooth correction
>> must  be converted in a suitable sampled data correction. It is possible
>> even to hardware correct the PPS with a delay line before using it  (see
>> the already mentioned gpstime.com/files/tow-time2011.pdf by Tom Clarck
>> and
>> Rick Hambly).
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>>
>> > Hi
>> >
>> > Another way to build an analog phase detector...
>> >
>> > Next layer on the onion is how to get the sawtooth correction out of
the
>> > GPS and into your loop.
>> >
>> > Bob
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Feb 11, 2012, at 12:05 AM, Chris Albertson <
>> albertson.ch...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > All these different suggestions build down to one thing, the
precision
>> > > with which you measure the phase when you sample it each second.  The
>> > > single flip flop will tell you which half cycle. a simple two bit
>> > > counter made with two '74 FFs tells you which half cycle and with
>> > > direction.
>> > >
>> > > The "best" maybe  is if you let the PPS set a FF and the 10MHz reset
>> > > it.  The FF's output gates a constant current to a capacitor and
>> > > charges it to some voltage.  Then you measure that with a 10-bit ADC.
>> > >  This measures the phase to maybe 1%, gives you direction and is
>> > > pretty cheap to build
>> > >
>> > > Let's see if I have the numbers right?  If you check a 10MHz signal
>> > > once per second with just the FF then you have 1E-7.  You would need
>> > > 1000 seconds for 1E-10.   But if you measure phase to 1/10th of a
>> > > cycle you get to 1E-10   ten faster.  Right?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Chris Albertson
>> > > Redondo Beach, California
>> > >
>> > > ___
>> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> > > To unsubscribe, go to
>> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > > and follow the instructions there.
>> >
>> > ___
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to
>> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>> >
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>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] 2004 & 2005 Tbolts w. the bad temp chip

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Keep in mind that there's really nothing "bad" about these TBolts. They work
just fine for their stated purpose - as a GPSDO. All replacing the chip does
is let LH read the temperature in a high resolution mode. That's a perfectly
good reason to swap the chip - if you need the resolution. 

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of cfo
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 1:59 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] 2004 & 2005 Tbolts w. the bad temp chip

I recently got 2 tbolts , and i'm quite sure they have the "bad" 
temperature chip.

They say mfg date : 2004 and 2005 in heather 

I have a 2003 Tbolt , that shows and updates the temperature constantly.
And the "yellow temp graph" is "natural".

The 2004 & 2005's does rarely update , and the graph jumps 4 x 250mC , in 
one jump like a Schmitt-Trigger.

I'm quite sure i read that someone here on the list had a "reel" of the 
old good sensors , but i can't seem to find the posting.

Any hints 

CFO
time-nut beginner 
Denmark


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Re: [time-nuts] Morion MV89A pics

[Scott Newell]

At 11:10 AM 2/13/2012, Bob Camp wrote:

trash the unit. Of course if somebody has one they hooked up backwards on
the supply...


I doubt that would do it--there appears to be a series Schottky on 
the power input line.


--
newell  N5TNL 



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Re: [time-nuts] Morion MV89A pics

[Bob Camp]

Hi

A double oven should be one oven inside another oven. To count as an oven,
you need a surface to heat, heaters, a temp sensor, and a controller.
Insulation also comes in handy. You can indeed to multi zone heaters, but
that's not the way a double oven works. 

The enclosure in the MV89 pictures should be the outer oven. Inside that
there likely is another set of heaters and past that the crystal. The
enclosure appears to be soldered shut. Further investigation is likely to
trash the unit. Of course if somebody has one they hooked up backwards on
the supply...

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Azelio Boriani
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 4:51 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Morion MV89A pics

I have always thought the space inside the cover was the outer oven... now
I realize this is not quite correct but then the MV201, specified as a
double-oven, can't be a double-oven. The MV201 has the crystal under a sort
of Stonenge-like open structure: if this structure is the inner oven then
the outer oven must be the cover. If the cover is the cover then this
structure is the only oven and the MV201 can't be a double oven OCXO... I
have an MV201 open right now: can take pictures.

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 2:28 AM, Tom Knox  wrote:

>
> Hi Gang;
> You most likely have this link to Morion with data sheets on all their
> oscillators, but if you don't:
> http://www.morion.com.ru/eng/oscillators/ocxo/
>
> Best Wishes;
> Thomas Knox
>
>
>
> > Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 19:11:11 -0600
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > From: newell+timen...@n5tnl.com
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Morion MV89A pics
> >
> > At 05:45 PM 2/12/2012, Sam wrote:
> > >Thanks for the pictures Scott, it was interesting to see under the
> > >shell of these.
> > >I wasn't expecting the inside to look so "hand made".
> >
> > Yep.  Some of the surface mount components appear to be hand
> > soldered.  I was a little surprised that there was no mechanical
> > frequency trim.  Wonder if it's an AT or SC cut rock--anyone know?
> >
> > --
> > newell  N5TNL
> >
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] OCXO phase noise

[Javier Herrero]

I've an answer from Abracon. I had overlooked these plots: 
http://www.abracon.com/Precisiontiming/AOCJY%20Typ%20Phase%20Noise%20Plots.pdf


The answer is that we can expect for the 40MHz unit a phase noise 
performance half way between the 10MHz and 100MHz units performance. 
That is, compared with the 10MHz unit, roughly a 20dB increase at 10Hz, 
a more or less 12dB increase at 100Hz, 6dB at 1000Hz, and around 3dB 
from that point.


Regards,

Javier

El 13/02/2012 16:45, Javier Herrero escribió:
Thanks for your answers, Magnus and John. For now, I will take the 
12dB value as a starting point until further confirmation.


Regards,

Javier

El 13/02/2012 10:32, Magnus Danielson escribió:

On 02/13/2012 10:16 AM, John Miles wrote:

That is exactly my thinking, but I was looking for a second opinion :)
We have anyway asked Abracon for pn data on the 40MHz version to be
sure.


Most likely, the PN improvement will be somewhat better than the 
expected 12
dB close to the carrier, and somewhat worse than expected (if you 
see any

improvement at all) farther out.

The corner frequency that separates "close in" and "farther out" 
will be

device-specific,  but it'll probably happen between 100 Hz and 2 kHz.


A more proper analysis would separate the effects of oscillator Q, 
resonator loop noise and the buffer noise and then scale them 
accordingly.


Assuming the same Q (which isn't correct) the oscillator core 1/f^2 
or 1/f^3 flips up on. The buffer noise then masks on top of that.


Cheers,
Magnus

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--

Javier Herrero
Chief Technology Officer  EMAIL: jherr...@hvsistemas.com
HV Sistemas S.L.  PHONE: +34 949 336 806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX:   +34 949 336 792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain  WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com


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Re: [time-nuts] OCXO phase noise

[Javier Herrero]

Thanks for your answers, Magnus and John. For now, I will take the 12dB 
value as a starting point until further confirmation.


Regards,

Javier

El 13/02/2012 10:32, Magnus Danielson escribió:

On 02/13/2012 10:16 AM, John Miles wrote:

That is exactly my thinking, but I was looking for a second opinion :)
We have anyway asked Abracon for pn data on the 40MHz version to be
sure.


Most likely, the PN improvement will be somewhat better than the 
expected 12
dB close to the carrier, and somewhat worse than expected (if you see 
any

improvement at all) farther out.

The corner frequency that separates "close in" and "farther out" will be
device-specific,  but it'll probably happen between 100 Hz and 2 kHz.


A more proper analysis would separate the effects of oscillator Q, 
resonator loop noise and the buffer noise and then scale them 
accordingly.


Assuming the same Q (which isn't correct) the oscillator core 1/f^2 or 
1/f^3 flips up on. The buffer noise then masks on top of that.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] GPS fade out, Sat/Sun

[Bill Hawkins]

Nothing in Minnesota.

Probably just the local terrorist cell tuning up the jammers for the
big event on Valentine's day.

Or a Light Squared test . . .

Bill Hawkins 

-Original Message-
From: paul swed
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 7:52 AM

None on the east coast

Said Jackson  wrote:

No outtage down here in Los Gatos.

Hal Murray  wrote:

I'm in California (Silicon Valley).  It was about Sat noon-midnight local
time, 8PM Sat to 8AM Sun UTC. A TBolt and Z3801A went into holdover. The
TFOM on the Z3801A jumped up to 4 for a while.



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Re: [time-nuts] GPS fade out, Sat/Sun

[paul swed]

None on the east coast

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 4:01 AM, Said Jackson  wrote:

> Hi Hal,
>
> No outtage down here in Los Gatos, see the realtime plot here:
>
> http://www.jackson-labs.com/images/gpsstat.htm
>
> Said
>
> Sent From iPhone
>
> On Feb 12, 2012, at 20:52, Hal Murray  wrote:
>
> >
> > Did anybody else notice nything?  It might have been local noise/RFI.
> >
> > I'm in California (Silicon Valley).  It was about Sat noon-midnight local
> > time, 8PM Sat to 8AM Sun UTC.
> >
> > A TBolt and Z3801A went into holdover.  The TFOM on the Z3801A jumped up
> to 4
> > for a while.
> >
> > Most of my low cost GPS/NMEA units gave up.
> >
> > The thing that clued me in before I looked at the graphs of the log
> files was
> > the bright blue LED on a pair of Sure units stopped blinking.  (It
> really is
> > bright.  I normally run with a sheet of paper on top of them.)
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Question

[Attila Kinali]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 08:29:43 -0500 (EST)
Erno Peres  wrote:

>  received my FE-5680A  UN 63401   S/N 0311-61144...
> Anybody can advise a few idea about this "module"..?
> From the label I can see it requires +5 Volt but no info about the 
> RS232...
> Can I adjust the " C " field from the DB9 connector
> 
> Any info appreciated.

The info was given quite a few times on this mailinglis already.
There is a faq available at [1] that covers all of your questions.
For more information, read the mails with 5680 in the subject send
on this ML from late December to now. You can find the link to the
archive at the bottom of this mail.

Attila Kinali


[1] http://www.ko4bb.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=precision_timing:fe5680a_faq

-- 
The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved
up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump
them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap
-- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin

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[time-nuts] FE-5680A Question

[Erno Peres]

Hi Gents,

 received my FE-5680A  UN 63401   S/N 0311-61144...
Anybody can advise a few idea about this "module"..?
>From the label I can see it requires +5 Volt but no info about the RS232...
Can I adjust the " C " field from the DB9 connector

Any info appreciated.

Many thanks and  best regards,
Ernie.
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Re: [time-nuts] Morion MV89A pics

[Azelio Boriani]

I have always thought the space inside the cover was the outer oven... now
I realize this is not quite correct but then the MV201, specified as a
double-oven, can't be a double-oven. The MV201 has the crystal under a sort
of Stonenge-like open structure: if this structure is the inner oven then
the outer oven must be the cover. If the cover is the cover then this
structure is the only oven and the MV201 can't be a double oven OCXO... I
have an MV201 open right now: can take pictures.

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 2:28 AM, Tom Knox  wrote:

>
> Hi Gang;
> You most likely have this link to Morion with data sheets on all their
> oscillators, but if you don't:
> http://www.morion.com.ru/eng/oscillators/ocxo/
>
> Best Wishes;
> Thomas Knox
>
>
>
> > Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 19:11:11 -0600
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > From: newell+timen...@n5tnl.com
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Morion MV89A pics
> >
> > At 05:45 PM 2/12/2012, Sam wrote:
> > >Thanks for the pictures Scott, it was interesting to see under the
> > >shell of these.
> > >I wasn't expecting the inside to look so "hand made".
> >
> > Yep.  Some of the surface mount components appear to be hand
> > soldered.  I was a little surprised that there was no mechanical
> > frequency trim.  Wonder if it's an AT or SC cut rock--anyone know?
> >
> > --
> > newell  N5TNL
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to
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> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] OCXO phase noise

[Magnus Danielson]

On 02/13/2012 10:16 AM, John Miles wrote:

That is exactly my thinking, but I was looking for a second opinion :)
We have anyway asked Abracon for pn data on the 40MHz version to be
sure.


Most likely, the PN improvement will be somewhat better than the expected 12
dB close to the carrier, and somewhat worse than expected (if you see any
improvement at all) farther out.

The corner frequency that separates "close in" and "farther out" will be
device-specific,  but it'll probably happen between 100 Hz and 2 kHz.


A more proper analysis would separate the effects of oscillator Q, 
resonator loop noise and the buffer noise and then scale them accordingly.


Assuming the same Q (which isn't correct) the oscillator core 1/f^2 or 
1/f^3 flips up on. The buffer noise then masks on top of that.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] OCXO phase noise

[John Miles]

> That is exactly my thinking, but I was looking for a second opinion :)
> We have anyway asked Abracon for pn data on the 40MHz version to be
> sure.

Most likely, the PN improvement will be somewhat better than the expected 12
dB close to the carrier, and somewhat worse than expected (if you see any
improvement at all) farther out.  

The corner frequency that separates "close in" and "farther out" will be
device-specific,  but it'll probably happen between 100 Hz and 2 kHz.

-- john


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Re: [time-nuts] OCXO phase noise

[Javier Herrero]

Hi, Magnus,

El 13/02/2012 09:06, Magnus Danielson escribió:

On 02/13/2012 08:28 AM, Javier Herrero wrote:

Hello all,

I'm planning to use in an application this oscillator
http://www.abracon.com/Precisiontiming/AOCJY.pdf in the 40MHz version.
The phase noise data in the data sheet is for the 10MHz version. Is it
possible to "extrapolate" these numbers to what I could expect in the
40MHz version? Any guideline?


A quick and dirty analysis comes from assuming the same noise but 
chopped up differently by the frequency, then for original frequency 
f1 and target frequency f2 you get the scale-factor f2/f1. Similarly, 
the dB variant becomes 20*log(f2/f1) so for f1=10 MHz and f2=40 MHz 
you get the scale factor 4 which turns out about 12 dB higher.


It's not perfect, but gives you a hint of what to expect.


That is exactly my thinking, but I was looking for a second opinion :) 
We have anyway asked Abracon for pn data on the 40MHz version to be sure.


Thanks! Best regards,

Javier

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Re: [time-nuts] GPS fade out, Sat/Sun

[Said Jackson]

Hi Hal,

No outtage down here in Los Gatos, see the realtime plot here:

http://www.jackson-labs.com/images/gpsstat.htm

Said

Sent From iPhone

On Feb 12, 2012, at 20:52, Hal Murray  wrote:

> 
> Did anybody else notice nything?  It might have been local noise/RFI.
> 
> I'm in California (Silicon Valley).  It was about Sat noon-midnight local 
> time, 8PM Sat to 8AM Sun UTC.
> 
> A TBolt and Z3801A went into holdover.  The TFOM on the Z3801A jumped up to 4 
> for a while.
> 
> Most of my low cost GPS/NMEA units gave up.
> 
> The thing that clued me in before I looked at the graphs of the log files was 
> the bright blue LED on a pair of Sure units stopped blinking.  (It really is 
> bright.  I normally run with a sheet of paper on top of them.)
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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Re: [time-nuts] OCXO phase noise

[Magnus Danielson]

On 02/13/2012 08:28 AM, Javier Herrero wrote:

Hello all,

I'm planning to use in an application this oscillator
http://www.abracon.com/Precisiontiming/AOCJY.pdf in the 40MHz version.
The phase noise data in the data sheet is for the 10MHz version. Is it
possible to "extrapolate" these numbers to what I could expect in the
40MHz version? Any guideline?


A quick and dirty analysis comes from assuming the same noise but 
chopped up differently by the frequency, then for original frequency f1 
and target frequency f2 you get the scale-factor f2/f1. Similarly, the 
dB variant becomes 20*log(f2/f1) so for f1=10 MHz and f2=40 MHz you get 
the scale factor 4 which turns out about 12 dB higher.


It's not perfect, but gives you a hint of what to expect.

Cheers,
Magnus

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