date:20141101

Bob,

Alas, I suspect you've hit the nail on the head.  I'll probably wind 
up replacing the oscillator with something similar that I can make 
work.  While I've got some pretty good counters in the racks in my 
workshop, the 5300B is a handy little counter to schlep around for 
low frequency work.  Beside, it's lighter than the rack mounted counters.

Thanks,

Burt, K6OQK

From: Bob Camp 

Hi

If the OCXO was not heating, it would be off by about 20 to 60 Hz. 
It's close enough that it is getting power and heating up. If it 
does move when you fiddle the trimmer, that part is likely still connected.

It sounds like the beast has simply aged further than it's trim range.

Bob

> On Nov 1, 2014, at 8:39 PM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:
>
> The closest it will adjust is -2.5 Hz of 10. MHz.  This unit 
differs from the one in the manual in that it has a Microsonics 
OCXO with the adjustment on the side of the module.  The oven does 
not feel warm but is written on the side is: "Adjust at 25 Deg C", 
which is about 77 degrees F.  The schematic associated with the 
oven is missing from the schematic.  I suspect that the oven is 
either shot or not getting power.  The unit will not power up with 
the boards separated so I'm going to have to spend some time 
hanging wires out the side to make measurements.  Does anyone know 
of a schematic showing the Microsonics module and the associated 
circuitry for oven control?  Not sure if it's worth the effort, but 
it would be a shame to toss it - that's against my nature.

>
> Burt, K6OQK
>

Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
b...@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK 

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] UPDATE: HP 5300B - HP 5308A Counter Time Base...

2014-11-01 Thread Dave M

Are yu sure that it's an OXCO?  According to the manual that I have, the 
only option for the 5300B counter unit was option 001, which added a TXCO. 
The manual doesn't give any data on the Option 001 oscillator, so can't 
confirm that your oscillator is TXCO or OXCO.  If it's a TXCO, it won't get 
very warm, of course, and there won't be any oven control circuitry.


Is there an HP part number on the oscillator module?

Cheers,
Dave M.





Burt I. Weiner wrote:

The closest it will adjust is -2.5 Hz of 10.
MHz.  This unit differs from the one in the
manual in that it has a Microsonics OCXO with the
adjustment on the side of the module.  The oven
does not feel warm but is written on the side is:
"Adjust at 25 Deg C", which is about 77 degrees
F.  The schematic associated with the oven is
missing from the schematic.  I suspect that the
oven is either shot or not getting power.  The
unit will not power up with the boards separated
so I'm going to have to spend some time hanging
wires out the side to make measurements.  Does
anyone know of a schematic showing the
Microsonics module and the associated circuitry
for oven control?  Not sure if it's worth the
effort, but it would be a shame to toss it - that's against my nature.

Burt, K6OQK 



___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...

That's one down side of course of only buying the REF-1 units, not  having 
any idea of the "normal" behaviour.
 
It's certainly sounding like any hopes of a purely passive  solution is one 
for the "wishful thinking" department. I'd still like to  minimise any 
internal modifications, and mounting Arthur's switching circuit  inside a 
connector body wouldn't be difficult, so will still check to see  if there's 
any 
way of routing power out via the 15 way connector.
That still leaves the fault light connection but I was pretty sure  I've 
already established that just holding that input high to match the  fault 
light would enable it to start up ok but fiddling with it just now I'm  back to 
a fault light and not outputs.
Perhaps I should have left well alone:-)
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
 
In a message dated 02/11/2014 02:00:23 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org  
writes:

Hi

I’ve watched the two boxes fire up. They spend a bit of  time blinking 
lights on this one and then on that one. From watching the  “dance”, I think 
that the transistor delay circuit (or something like it) is  indeed needed. 
There are multiple ways the delay and sequencing could be  implemented. A 
cheap 5V PIC is certainly one way to do it. With no voltage  coming out on the 
connector doing a purely external solution probably is going  to require 
external power. I think I’d at least bring that out on one of the  many unused 
alarm pins. 

Bob

> On Nov 1, 2014, at 9:52 PM,  GandalfG8--- via time-nuts 
 wrote:
> 
>  Hi Bob,
> 
> I understand the consequences of not modifying the  unit but, having done 
so 
> and having a REF-1 unit running stand alone,  I was just commenting that 
I 
> wasn't  sure whether or not it was  necessary to implement all of 
Arthur's  
> modification in order to  enable the basic functionality, or whether some 
 
> part of it  might be purely to control the indicators.
> 
> As a follow on  from that I was wondering whether or not it might  be 
> possible  to achieve a similar result, at least to the point of just 
making it   
> functional, just by cross linking some of the out and return  paths,  
"faking" 
> it without the need for an additional powered  interface if you  like, 
not for 
> any other reason than it might  then be possible to make  a plug in 
> modification that could be  fitted without needing to  open the box.
> 
> Regards
>  
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a  message dated 02/11/2014 00:19:57 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org  
 
> writes:
> 
> Hi
> 
> If you:
> 
>  1) Do not have two units (Ref 0 and Ref  1)
> 
> — and  —
> 
> 2) Do not “fake out” the slave detect (= use the   mod)
> 
> Then the unit you have will not:
> 
> 1)  Enable the pps  out
> 
> 2) Enable the 15 MHz out
>  
> It will try to disciple the OCXO,  but you won’t be able to see  any 
result 
> of that.
> 
> Bob
> 
>  
>> On  Nov 1, 2014, at 7:05 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts  
>   wrote:
>> 
>> Hi  Anthony,
>> 
>> It's a new circuit that  has to be  inserted, which is what I've done, 
but 
> 
>> I'm not  sure  whether or not it's strictly necessary for the unit to 
>  function 
>> or  whether it's just there to get the lights  sequencing properly and  
>> perhaps all  that's needed for  basic functionality are just the  links.
>> 
>> I'm  leaving well alone for now to let the oscillator  run overnight but 
  
>> will try it again tomorrow with just the  links and see what  happens.
>> I'm also hoping to get some idea of the  between  unit signalling,  
> although 
>> I only have Z3811s  I'm  hoping, with the boards being an almost  
> identical  
>> match, that  what goes one way should be matched by what  comes the  
other.
>> 
>> Regards
>>  
>> Nigel
>> GM8PZR
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> In a message dated 01/11/2014 22:41:09 GMT Standard Time,   
> ar...@antamy.com  
>> writes:
>> 
>>  I wasn't  clear  from the photo whether the circuit was a  
representation 
> of 
>> what is  on  the board, and  you just had to connect the pins listed 
> together,  
>>  or whether  this was a new circuit that had to be  inserted.   Sounds 
like 
>> the  latter?
>> 
>>  Anthony
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>>  From:  time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of  
>> GandalfG8--- via  time-nuts
>> Sent: Saturday,  November 01, 2014  4:04 PM
>> To:   time-nuts@febo.com
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts]  Lucent KS-24361,  HP/Symmetricom  Z3809A, 
> Z3810A, 
>> Z3811A,   Z3812...
>> 
>> Well, I'm happy to report that   Arthur's  modification does do the 
trick, 
>> although I don't  know why as I  don't  have any data for the interface  
>  as yet.
>> I daren't  disturb the 15 pin  connector right  now as this  Z3811A PCB 
is 
> 
>> still out of its case  and  connected to a breadboard  with  wires just 
>  pushed 
>> into the sockets, and  for the same reason I   don't have  any computer 
>> connection at the  moment   either.
>> 
>> My implementation isn't  quite as described, in that  I've not  made a 
>>  connection to

Re: [time-nuts] Setting Clocks in the Mid 1800's

2014-11-01 Thread Larry McDavid

Yes, that is one of the original 1843 dipleidoscope designs. All the 
original black finish seems to have been polished away, however.


This original design used a lot of expensive brass. Later models used a 
cast brass "{scroll" base and a dipleidoscope body machined from a round 
brass bar; this could be used for either the British Isles or for the 
India model.


Larry


On 11/1/2014 2:16 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:

Hi Larry:

Yes, please.
Here's my Dent Dipleidoscope:
http://www.prc68.com/I/Dent.shtml

Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Sanjeev Gupta wrote:

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Larry McDavid 
wrote:


I gave a presentation on the Dent Dipleidoscope at the Harvard
conference
of the North American Sundial Society in 2013. If anyone is
interested, I
can provide a pdf of that presentation. The presentation includes
history,
detailed explanation of operation and lots of pictures of the
construction
of the dipleidoscope.


(specifically on-list)

Larry, I, for one, would appreciate your presentation.



___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.




--
Best wishes,

Larry McDavid W6FUB
Anaheim, California  (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland)
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV for a beginner


That will work as a starting-point.

When you look at your ADEV plot, you will notice a 1/tau curve for the 
lower taus, that is due to your counters limitations. If you need to go 
below that, you need a better counter, but for the moment you should 
start believe the plot as it flattens out, that has more to do with your 
signal, unless that is the same as your reference or a very high 
measurement floor of the counter.


A good test is to split your reference into the start and stop inputs, 
and then measure the amount of noise you have. Preferably with a 
slightly longer cable to the stop channel. This will give you the noise 
floor of the counter, for that signaltype and trigger-point.


There are ways to improve things if your noise is higher than the 
single-shot resolution, as you read out the ADEV at tau=1s.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 11/01/2014 09:43 PM, Anthony Roby wrote:

Thanks - seems that I should be able to do this with my Racal-Dana 1992 counter.

Anthony

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Magnus 
Danielson
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 1:29 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Cc: mag...@rubidium.se
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV for a beginner

Anthony,

On 11/01/2014 02:29 PM, Anthony Roby wrote:

I've been reading a lot about ADEV and following the threads on the list, 
particularly Karen's in-flight thread.
What I haven't come across is a simple explanation of the basic setup required 
to go about collecting the data.
John Miles referenced this page http://www.ke5fx.com/tpll.htm, and the
simple setup at the bottom of the page looks like a reasonable place
to start.  Seems that I'd need to acquire a phase detector and build
or buy some filters and the amp.  I can probably figure that out, but how do I 
get the data into a PC?  Is there a basic hardware and software setup that 
someone could point me to or recommend?


The time-interval counter, such as HP5370 or SR620, get started (channel
1) by a reference clock, such as 1 PPS and is then stopped (channel 2) by 
signal under test. The counter is typically read out through GPIB, even if some 
counters have serial interface and maybe even USB or Ethernet for really new 
(or retro-fitted), and the recommended path is to get a GPIB to USB interface 
for instance.
Then use John Miles TimeLab.

Cheers,
Magnus
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...

Hi Arthur,
 
Thanks for the extra information, it sounds like you may well have answered 
 my question:-)
 
As I commented to Bob, I was hoping I might be able to find an option that  
didn't require any internal access, I knew that was a long shot anyway but 
I  quite liked the idea of a plug and go solution.
 
Anyway, I can assure you that what you did wasn't just black magic, or  at 
least that if it was the magic still works:-)
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 02/11/2014 01:27:18 GMT Standard Time,  
golgarfrinc...@gmail.com writes:

Keep in  mind that I made the modifications to my RFTG-u REF 1 almost
4 years ago  and the details of why I did what I did are kind of foggy
today. It was a  pure hack but I *believe* that the circuitry as well
as the jumpers were  required, or at least I thought so. The big problem
with getting something  like this to work is that after spending a lot
of time on it I generally go  on to the next project and as long as what
I did works, I forget about it  because it is a one of a kind thing. The
photo link below shows the 5Mhz  buffer amp I connected to the TP in
front of the oscillator that uses a  mounting bracket that is secured
by the BNC connector that outputs the  5Mhz. The 24V/2A power supply that
I mounted on the back connects across  the diode on the circuit board as
shown. The transistors and other  components of the modification that are
mounted free form on the back of  the J5 connector get the +5VDC from
the header directly in back of J5. The  wire on the left goes through an
existing hole on the circuit board to  connect to the fault LED.

I was hoping that someone else would  duplicate the modification just to
reassure me that what I did wasn't black  magic. It looks like Nigel is
doing just  that-thanks.


http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1_zps546e4c82.jpg
___
time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the  instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...

Hi

I’ve watched the two boxes fire up. They spend a bit of time blinking lights on 
this one and then on that one. From watching the “dance”, I think that the 
transistor delay circuit (or something like it) is indeed needed. There are 
multiple ways the delay and sequencing could be implemented. A cheap 5V PIC is 
certainly one way to do it. With no voltage coming out on the connector doing a 
purely external solution probably is going to require external power. I think 
I’d at least bring that out on one of the many unused alarm pins. 

Bob
 
> On Nov 1, 2014, at 9:52 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
> I understand the consequences of not modifying the unit but, having done so 
> and having a REF-1 unit running stand alone, I was just commenting that I 
> wasn't  sure whether or not it was necessary to implement all of Arthur's  
> modification in order to enable the basic functionality, or whether some  
> part of it might be purely to control the indicators.
> 
> As a follow on from that I was wondering whether or not it might  be 
> possible to achieve a similar result, at least to the point of just making it 
>  
> functional, just by cross linking some of the out and return paths,  "faking" 
> it without the need for an additional powered interface if you  like, not for 
> any other reason than it might then be possible to make  a plug in 
> modification that could be fitted without needing to  open the box.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 02/11/2014 00:19:57 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org  
> writes:
> 
> Hi
> 
> If you:
> 
> 1) Do not have two units (Ref 0 and Ref  1)
> 
> — and —
> 
> 2) Do not “fake out” the slave detect (= use the  mod)
> 
> Then the unit you have will not:
> 
> 1) Enable the pps  out
> 
> 2) Enable the 15 MHz out
> 
> It will try to disciple the OCXO,  but you won’t be able to see any result 
> of that.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
>> On  Nov 1, 2014, at 7:05 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts 
>   wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Anthony,
>> 
>> It's a new circuit that  has to be inserted, which is what I've done, but 
> 
>> I'm not sure  whether or not it's strictly necessary for the unit to 
> function 
>> or  whether it's just there to get the lights sequencing properly and  
>> perhaps all  that's needed for basic functionality are just the  links.
>> 
>> I'm leaving well alone for now to let the oscillator  run overnight but  
>> will try it again tomorrow with just the  links and see what happens.
>> I'm also hoping to get some idea of the  between unit signalling,  
> although 
>> I only have Z3811s I'm  hoping, with the boards being an almost  
> identical 
>> match, that  what goes one way should be matched by what comes the  other.
>> 
>> Regards
>> 
>> Nigel
>> GM8PZR
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> In a message dated 01/11/2014 22:41:09 GMT Standard Time,  
> ar...@antamy.com  
>> writes:
>> 
>> I wasn't  clear  from the photo whether the circuit was a representation 
> of 
>> what is  on  the board, and you just had to connect the pins listed 
> together,  
>> or whether  this was a new circuit that had to be  inserted.  Sounds like 
>> the  latter?
>> 
>> Anthony
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From:  time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of 
>> GandalfG8--- via  time-nuts
>> Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014  4:04 PM
>> To:  time-nuts@febo.com
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts]  Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom  Z3809A, 
> Z3810A, 
>> Z3811A,  Z3812...
>> 
>> Well, I'm happy to report that  Arthur's  modification does do the trick, 
>> although I don't know why as I  don't  have any data for the interface  
> as yet.
>> I daren't  disturb the 15 pin  connector right now as this  Z3811A PCB is 
> 
>> still out of its case and  connected to a breadboard  with  wires just 
> pushed 
>> into the sockets, and  for the same reason I  don't have  any computer 
>> connection at the moment   either.
>> 
>> My implementation isn't quite as described, in that  I've not  made a 
>> connection to the fault LED but am just  manually pulling that input  
> high and low 
>> on the breadboard with  another wire link as required.
>> Whether  or not this is part or  all of the reason that my green "on"  
> light 
>> is  flashing  rather than steady I don't know, but I am seeing the 1PPS 
> and 
>> 15MHz  outputs and the 15MHz looks to be conditioning ok.
>> 
>> Aside from the 5  volt supply, which I'm picking off from pin 5  of the 
>> header between u33 and  U34, and the aforementioned fault  LED 
> connection, all 
>> the  other  connections can be made to  J5 externally and could be housed 
> in a 
>> 15  way  shell along  with the switching circuits.
>> 
>> I'm still hopeful that  some  cross linking of the right pairs might  
>> achieve the  same result without  the extra circuitry, so "all" that 
> needs to  be  
>> done now is just to  identify the right pairs:-)
>> 
>> At least with it up and running it should  be easier to check  out some  
> o

Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...

Hi Bob,
 
I understand the consequences of not modifying the unit but, having done so 
 and having a REF-1 unit running stand alone, I was just commenting that I 
wasn't  sure whether or not it was necessary to implement all of Arthur's  
modification in order to enable the basic functionality, or whether some  
part of it might be purely to control the indicators.
 
As a follow on from that I was wondering whether or not it might  be 
possible to achieve a similar result, at least to the point of just making it  
functional, just by cross linking some of the out and return paths,  "faking" 
it without the need for an additional powered interface if you  like, not for 
any other reason than it might then be possible to make  a plug in 
modification that could be fitted without needing to  open the box.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 02/11/2014 00:19:57 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org  
writes:

Hi

If you:

1) Do not have two units (Ref 0 and Ref  1)

— and —

2) Do not “fake out” the slave detect (= use the  mod)

Then the unit you have will not:

1) Enable the pps  out

2) Enable the 15 MHz out

It will try to disciple the OCXO,  but you won’t be able to see any result 
of that.

Bob


> On  Nov 1, 2014, at 7:05 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts 
  wrote:
> 
> Hi Anthony,
> 
> It's a new circuit that  has to be inserted, which is what I've done, but 
 
> I'm not sure  whether or not it's strictly necessary for the unit to 
function 
>  or  whether it's just there to get the lights sequencing properly and  
> perhaps all  that's needed for basic functionality are just the  links.
> 
> I'm leaving well alone for now to let the oscillator  run overnight but  
> will try it again tomorrow with just the  links and see what happens.
> I'm also hoping to get some idea of the  between unit signalling,  
although 
> I only have Z3811s I'm  hoping, with the boards being an almost  
identical 
> match, that  what goes one way should be matched by what comes the  other.
>  
> Regards
> 
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
> 
>  
> 
> In a message dated 01/11/2014 22:41:09 GMT Standard Time,  
ar...@antamy.com  
> writes:
> 
> I wasn't  clear  from the photo whether the circuit was a representation 
of 
> what is  on  the board, and you just had to connect the pins listed 
together,  
> or whether  this was a new circuit that had to be  inserted.  Sounds like 
> the  latter?
> 
>  Anthony
> 
> -Original Message-
> From:  time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of 
>  GandalfG8--- via  time-nuts
> Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014  4:04 PM
> To:  time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts]  Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom  Z3809A, 
Z3810A, 
> Z3811A,  Z3812...
> 
> Well, I'm happy to report that  Arthur's  modification does do the trick, 
> although I don't know why as I  don't  have any data for the interface  
as yet.
> I daren't  disturb the 15 pin  connector right now as this  Z3811A PCB is 
 
> still out of its case and  connected to a breadboard  with  wires just 
pushed 
> into the sockets, and  for the same reason I  don't have  any computer 
> connection at the moment   either.
> 
> My implementation isn't quite as described, in that  I've not  made a 
> connection to the fault LED but am just  manually pulling that input  
high and low 
> on the breadboard with  another wire link as required.
> Whether  or not this is part or  all of the reason that my green "on"  
light 
> is  flashing  rather than steady I don't know, but I am seeing the 1PPS 
and 
>  15MHz  outputs and the 15MHz looks to be conditioning ok.
>  
> Aside from the 5  volt supply, which I'm picking off from pin 5  of the 
> header between u33 and  U34, and the aforementioned fault  LED 
connection, all 
> the  other  connections can be made to  J5 externally and could be housed 
in a 
> 15  way  shell along  with the switching circuits.
> 
> I'm still hopeful that  some  cross linking of the right pairs might  
> achieve the  same result without  the extra circuitry, so "all" that 
needs to  be  
> done now is just to  identify the right pairs:-)
>  
> At least with it up and running it should  be easier to check  out some  
of 
> the inter-unit signalling.
> 
>  Thanks  Arthur, your efforts are much  appreciated.
> 
>  regards
> 
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In  a message dated  01/11/2014 15:25:02 GMT Standard Time,  
ar...@antamy.com
>  writes:
> 
> For  those who missed it, Arthur's  post is  at 
> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2010-June/047825.html  and  the 
photo  is at  
>  
http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1photo1_zps87c505ca.jpg
>  
> Anthony
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  -Original   Message-
> From: time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On  Behalf  Of 
Arthur 
>  Dent
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:20  PM
> To:   time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361,   HP/Symmetricom  Z3809A, Z3810A, 
> Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO  system
> 
> Bob  Stewar

Re: [time-nuts] UPDATE: HP 5300B - HP 5308A Counter Time Base...

Hi

If the OCXO was not heating, it would be off by about 20 to 60 Hz. It’s close 
enough that it is getting power and heating up. If it does move when you fiddle 
the trimmer, that part is likely still connected. 

It sounds like the beast has simply aged further than it’s trim range. 

Bob

> On Nov 1, 2014, at 8:39 PM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:
> 
> The closest it will adjust is -2.5 Hz of 10. MHz.  This unit differs from 
> the one in the manual in that it has a Microsonics OCXO with the adjustment 
> on the side of the module.  The oven does not feel warm but is written on the 
> side is: "Adjust at 25 Deg C", which is about 77 degrees F.  The schematic 
> associated with the oven is missing from the schematic.  I suspect that the 
> oven is either shot or not getting power.  The unit will not power up with 
> the boards separated so I'm going to have to spend some time hanging wires 
> out the side to make measurements.  Does anyone know of a schematic showing 
> the Microsonics module and the associated circuitry for oven control?  Not 
> sure if it's worth the effort, but it would be a shame to toss it - that's 
> against my nature.
> 
> Burt, K6OQK
> 
> 
> 
>> Tom & Bob,
>> 
>> Thanks for the comments and quick reply.  Tom,
>> when I originally did a  google search I did not
>> see the site that you sent, but from your
>> guidance I did find the manual showing the
>> frequency adjustment and I'm letting the
>> 5300B/5308A combination counter heat up.  From a
>> cold start it's about 6+ Hz low when compared to
>> my house GPS reference - a DATUM 9390-52054.
>> 
>> In a bit I'll give the thing a tweak and it
>> should come right in as Bob suggests.  I don't
>> know the history of this counter except that the
>> fellow that gave it to me has nothing to really
>> compare it against nor the experience to question
>> its accuracy.  On my unit the oscillator
>> adjustment marking is gone, but the hole for the
>> adjustment thankfully is still there :>
>> 
>> I'll let you know how it goes - should be a simple tweak.
>> 
>> Thanks Guys,
>> 
>> Burt K6OQK
>> 
>> 
>> >From: "Tom Miller" 
>> >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5300B - HP 5308A Counter Time Base
>> >
>> >Hi Bert,
>> >
>> >The service manual for the 5300B is on the keysight.com site under manuals.
>> >
>> >http://www.keysight.com/main/techSupport.jspx?s 
>> >earchT=5300B&id=5300B:epsg:pro&pageMode=OV&pid=5300B:epsg:pro&cc=US&lc=eng
>> >
>> >Do you have a frequency reference (house standard) that you can use to
>> >adjust the reference in the counter? See the manual.
>> >
>> >Regards,
>> >Tom
>> >
>> >From: "Burt I. Weiner" 
>> >
>> > >I was recently given a HP-5300B / 5308A counter. I thought it might be
>> > >handy when I'm at an AM broadcast transmitter and need to make "rough"
>> > >frequency measurements.  It turns out that at 1000 kHz it reads about 4.5
>> > >Hz high. Looking inside I'm not sure if there's a time base adjustment.  I
>> > >looked at the on-line manuals available and I don't find any reference to
>> > >adjusting the time base frequency.  Does anyone here know anything about
>> > >these counters?  Is there a schematic available?  I'm not looking for
>> > >precision, but 4.5 Hz at 1 MHz seems a tad much.
>> > >
>> > > Burt, K6OQK
>> > >
>> >
>> >--
>> >
>> >From: Bob Camp 
>> >
>> >Hi
>> >
>> >4.5 Hz at 1 MHz is 4.5 ppm. ThatÃ¢ÂÂs not out of
>> >the likely adjustment range on the basic crystal
>> >reference on a 5308. ItÃ¢ÂÂs probably a simple
>> >tweak to get it back into calibration.
>> >
>> >Bob
> 
> Burt I. Weiner Associates
> Broadcast Technical Services
> Glendale, California  U.S.A.
> b...@att.net
> www.biwa.cc
> K6OQK 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

[time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...

2014-11-01 Thread Arthur Dent

Keep in mind that I made the modifications to my RFTG-u REF 1 almost
4 years ago and the details of why I did what I did are kind of foggy
today. It was a pure hack but I *believe* that the circuitry as well
as the jumpers were required, or at least I thought so. The big problem
with getting something like this to work is that after spending a lot
of time on it I generally go on to the next project and as long as what
I did works, I forget about it because it is a one of a kind thing. The
photo link below shows the 5Mhz buffer amp I connected to the TP in
front of the oscillator that uses a mounting bracket that is secured
by the BNC connector that outputs the 5Mhz. The 24V/2A power supply that
I mounted on the back connects across the diode on the circuit board as
shown. The transistors and other components of the modification that are
mounted free form on the back of the J5 connector get the +5VDC from
the header directly in back of J5. The wire on the left goes through an
existing hole on the circuit board to connect to the fault LED.

I was hoping that someone else would duplicate the modification just to
reassure me that what I did wasn't black magic. It looks like Nigel is
doing just that-thanks.


http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1_zps546e4c82.jpg
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Digital temperature compensation

I think you have a good point - any model is going to have a larger  
error than the data itself.  I'll be looking into this.

Quoting Chris Albertson :

If this is just for holdover then I don't think you even want a general
solution.  Have the controller always keep the last few days of data for
temperature vs. EFC value.  Then if GPS fails use the most recent data for
the current temperature.  This makes for a self adapting system accounting
for aging too.  Not just crystal aging but the aging of the resisters, the
temperature sensor itself and other components.

I don't think holdover should fall back onto a model that was created from
data that might be months or years old.  Use hours or days old data.

This will give the desired response which is this:  If the temperature is
constant when the GPS fails the EFC value as determined by your holdover
temperature modeling should give you the EXACT same EFC value as just
before the GPS failure.  I don't think you can do that with a model. You'd
nee to use logged data.

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

Hi

> On Nov 1, 2014, at 5:09 PM, Dan Drown  wrote:
>
> Ok, I hadn't considered rate of change.

It’s one of the limits on this sort of thing in general. It’s even more of
an issue with a coupled mode like the one you show. Since there are an
enormous number of possible variables, it’s always tough to know exactly
how much of an issue you will have.

One common answer - run your profile runs at the temperature change rate
you are most likely to see in practice.

Another very common answer - don’t use that crystal, get one that does not
have the problem. You can get parts with slopes  <0.1 ppm / C  over 10 to
50 C. You might have to spend some quality time sorting them out ….

Bob

> This data is currently 3 day's worth and seems to repeat itself on both
days at the same temperature point.  Attached is a time based graph to show
that.  The ppm axis (on the right) is inverted to make it easier to see the
relationship between the two.
>
>
> Quoting Bob Camp :
>> Hi
>>
>> This sort of thing is normally done with a precisely controlled
temperature chamber and multi day temperature ramp runs. Even then there is
a bit of “wonder what that was, let’s try it again”.
>>
>> If you are looking at a crystal oscillator, what you have is a
perturbation in the frequency / temperature curve. The response you get
will be temperature rate of change dependent.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>> On Nov 1, 2014, at 4:40 PM, Dan Drown  wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm experimenting with using a temperature sensor to estimate local
oscillator frequency changes.  My goal is to have a decent holdover clock
for a NTP server with not so great GPS antenna placement.
>>>
>>> I've been sampling temperature every minute, measured by a DS18B20.
I've been measuring local clock frequency differences, using chronyd's logs
from the GPS's PPS.  At 28C through 21C, I get a pretty good result that
fits a quadratic polynomial decently (0.117 ppm stddev).  I've attached the
graph of that as "temp-clock-warmer.png".
>>>
>>> With the colder temperatures, there's a sudden drop off in frequency
that I'm having a hard time finding a equation that fits as nicely.  All
the examples I can find on the web look like third degree polynomials,
while my data doesn't seem to fit that exactly.  The best result I've had
so far (0.198 ppm stddev) is attached as "temp-clock.png" and uses the
function:
>>>
>>> f(x) = -abs(a * (x - 20.88)) + b * ((x - 20.88)**2) + c * ((x -
20.88)**3)
>>> a = 0.888582
>>> b = 0.113806
>>> c = -0.00445763
>>>
>>> Does anyone have any advice on how to better model this?  Has anyone
seen this behavior?
>>>
>>> I can provide the raw data if that would help any.
>>>
___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

--

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com

[time-nuts] UPDATE: HP 5300B - HP 5308A Counter Time Base...

The closest it will adjust is -2.5 Hz of 10. 
MHz.  This unit differs from the one in the 
manual in that it has a Microsonics OCXO with the 
adjustment on the side of the module.  The oven 
does not feel warm but is written on the side is: 
"Adjust at 25 Deg C", which is about 77 degrees 
F.  The schematic associated with the oven is 
missing from the schematic.  I suspect that the 
oven is either shot or not getting power.  The 
unit will not power up with the boards separated 
so I'm going to have to spend some time hanging 
wires out the side to make measurements.  Does 
anyone know of a schematic showing the 
Microsonics module and the associated circuitry 
for oven control?  Not sure if it's worth the 
effort, but it would be a shame to toss it - that's against my nature.


Burt, K6OQK




Tom & Bob,

Thanks for the comments and quick reply.  Tom,
when I originally did a  google search I did not
see the site that you sent, but from your
guidance I did find the manual showing the
frequency adjustment and I'm letting the
5300B/5308A combination counter heat up.  From a
cold start it's about 6+ Hz low when compared to
my house GPS reference - a DATUM 9390-52054.

In a bit I'll give the thing a tweak and it
should come right in as Bob suggests.  I don't
know the history of this counter except that the
fellow that gave it to me has nothing to really
compare it against nor the experience to question
its accuracy.  On my unit the oscillator
adjustment marking is gone, but the hole for the
adjustment thankfully is still there :>

I'll let you know how it goes - should be a simple tweak.

Thanks Guys,

Burt K6OQK


>From: "Tom Miller" 
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5300B - HP 5308A Counter Time Base
>
>Hi Bert,
>
>The service manual for the 5300B is on the keysight.com site under manuals.
>
>http://www.keysight.com/main/techSupport.jspx?s 
earchT=5300B&id=5300B:epsg:pro&pageMode=OV&pid=5300B:epsg:pro&cc=US&lc=eng

>
>Do you have a frequency reference (house standard) that you can use to
>adjust the reference in the counter? See the manual.
>
>Regards,
>Tom
>
>From: "Burt I. Weiner" 
>
> >I was recently given a HP-5300B / 5308A counter. I thought it might be
> >handy when I'm at an AM broadcast transmitter and need to make "rough"
> >frequency measurements.  It turns out that at 1000 kHz it reads about 4.5
> >Hz high. Looking inside I'm not sure if there's a time base adjustment.  I
> >looked at the on-line manuals available and I don't find any reference to
> >adjusting the time base frequency.  Does anyone here know anything about
> >these counters?  Is there a schematic available?  I'm not looking for
> >precision, but 4.5 Hz at 1 MHz seems a tad much.
> >
> > Burt, K6OQK
> >
>
>--
>
>From: Bob Camp 
>
>Hi
>
>4.5 Hz at 1 MHz is 4.5 ppm. ThatÃ¢ÂÂs not out of
>the likely adjustment range on the basic crystal
>reference on a 5308. ItÃ¢ÂÂs probably a simple
>tweak to get it back into calibration.
>
>Bob


Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
b...@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK 


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...

Hi

If you:

1) Do not have two units (Ref 0 and Ref 1)

— and —

2) Do not “fake out” the slave detect (= use the mod)

Then the unit you have will not:

1) Enable the pps out

2) Enable the 15 MHz out

It will try to disciple the OCXO, but you won’t be able to see any result of 
that.

Bob


> On Nov 1, 2014, at 7:05 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Anthony,
> 
> It's a new circuit that has to be inserted, which is what I've done, but  
> I'm not sure whether or not it's strictly necessary for the unit to function 
> or  whether it's just there to get the lights sequencing properly and 
> perhaps all  that's needed for basic functionality are just the links.
> 
> I'm leaving well alone for now to let the oscillator run overnight but  
> will try it again tomorrow with just the links and see what happens.
> I'm also hoping to get some idea of the between unit signalling,  although 
> I only have Z3811s I'm hoping, with the boards being an almost  identical 
> match, that what goes one way should be matched by what comes the  other.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
> 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 01/11/2014 22:41:09 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com  
> writes:
> 
> I wasn't  clear from the photo whether the circuit was a representation of 
> what is on  the board, and you just had to connect the pins listed together, 
> or whether  this was a new circuit that had to be inserted.  Sounds like 
> the  latter?
> 
> Anthony
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of 
> GandalfG8--- via  time-nuts
> Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 4:04 PM
> To:  time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom  Z3809A, Z3810A, 
> Z3811A, Z3812...
> 
> Well, I'm happy to report that  Arthur's modification does do the trick, 
> although I don't know why as I don't  have any data for the interface  as yet.
> I daren't disturb the 15 pin  connector right now as this  Z3811A PCB is 
> still out of its case and  connected to a breadboard  with wires just pushed 
> into the sockets, and  for the same reason I don't have  any computer 
> connection at the moment  either.
> 
> My implementation isn't quite as described, in that I've not  made a 
> connection to the fault LED but am just manually pulling that input  high and 
> low 
> on the breadboard with another wire link as required.
> Whether  or not this is part or all of the reason that my green "on"  light 
> is  flashing rather than steady I don't know, but I am seeing the 1PPS and 
> 15MHz  outputs and the 15MHz looks to be conditioning ok.
> 
> Aside from the 5  volt supply, which I'm picking off from pin 5 of the 
> header between u33 and  U34, and the aforementioned fault LED connection, all 
> the  other  connections can be made to J5 externally and could be housed in a 
> 15  way  shell along with the switching circuits.
> 
> I'm still hopeful that some  cross linking of the right pairs might  
> achieve the same result without  the extra circuitry, so "all" that needs to  
> be 
> done now is just to  identify the right pairs:-)
> 
> At least with it up and running it should  be easier to check out some  of 
> the inter-unit signalling.
> 
> Thanks  Arthur, your efforts are much  appreciated.
> 
> regards
> 
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In  a message dated 01/11/2014 15:25:02 GMT Standard Time,  ar...@antamy.com
> writes:
> 
> For  those who missed it, Arthur's  post is at 
> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2010-June/047825.html and  the photo 
>  is at  
> http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1photo1_zps87c505ca.jpg
> 
> Anthony
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original   Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On  Behalf  Of Arthur 
> Dent
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:20  PM
> To:  time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361,  HP/Symmetricom  Z3809A, Z3810A, 
> Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system
> 
> Bob  Stewart bob at  evoria.net
> ?? ? I have both of my units sitting on the  bench. I found that  I needed 
> to connect them together to get the REF1  unit to come out of standby  ? . ??
> 
> Bob Camp kb8tq at  n1k.org
> ??I suspect that somebody will have  to figure out what the 15  pin 
> connector / jumper is doing. On previous RFTG  units there was a way  to 
> re-wire 
> the crossover interface to fake out the slave  detect process.  That would 
> let 
> you run a single GPS equipped box and have it  behave  correctly. Without 
> the fake wires trick none of them played nice  without  the slave being 
> present ? 
> .   ??
> ++
> Reposting what I had  posted  over a week ago, in case you missed it ? .
> 
> Arthur Dent  golgarfrincham  at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 13:59:48 EDT 2014  ?? 
> ?  
> Way back on Fri Jun 11  16:48:43 UTC 2010 I posted about using one of  
> these units I had modified but  at the time there wasn't a single person  who 
> was interested. I ha

Re: [time-nuts] Digital temperature compensation

2014-11-01 Thread Alan Melia

Mmmm yes you can see the equation evaluation starting to rise in your 
"Warmer" plot, as Mark says, which will make a nonsense of the formula if 
your summer temps get above 28.


Why not a table and then interpolate between the table data points?. You 
might have more points where the changes are greater.
The colder plot looks cubic maybe for a crystal made for 20 deg C ?? But 
depending on the oscillator electronics you may have component tempcos 
affecting the frequency as well?
I suspect the turnover at 21deg C should be a smooth curve not as your 
formula predicts. Which suggests that you have too too high an order of 
polynomial I think, but you may not get a good fit with a cubic if other 
effects are present.


Alan
G3NYK


- Original Message - 
From: "Dan Drown" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Digital temperature compensation


I gave zunzun a try and the one with the lowest root mean squared error 
was:

f(x) = a( x**0.5) + b( x ) + c( sin(x) ) + d( cos(x) )

It got 0.202 RMSE, so I guess I'll stick with my original function as  it 
seems to be closer to what I expect will happen at colder/hotter  temps.


You have a good point about temperatures outside my data samples.   Once 
it gets hot again in the summertime, I'm sure I'll have to  re-evaluate 
this.


Quoting Mark Sims :
You could try submitting your data to zunzun.com   It will fit it to 
around 40,000 different curves and find the best ones.


Beware that with all curve fitting formulas,  once your live data  starts 
to wander out of the range of your original curve fit data,   things can 
go rather badly...


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there. 


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Digital temperature compensation

2014-11-01 Thread Chris Albertson

If this is just for holdover then I don't think you even want a general
solution.  Have the controller always keep the last few days of data for
temperature vs. EFC value.  Then if GPS fails use the most recent data for
the current temperature.  This makes for a self adapting system accounting
for aging too.  Not just crystal aging but the aging of the resisters, the
temperature sensor itself and other components.

I don't think holdover should fall back onto a model that was created from
data that might be months or years old.  Use hours or days old data.

This will give the desired response which is this:  If the temperature is
constant when the GPS fails the EFC value as determined by your holdover
temperature modeling should give you the EXACT same EFC value as just
before the GPS failure.  I don't think you can do that with a model. You'd
nee to use logged data.


On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> > On Nov 1, 2014, at 5:09 PM, Dan Drown  wrote:
> >
> > Ok, I hadn't considered rate of change.
>
> It’s one of the limits on this sort of thing in general. It’s even more of
> an issue with a coupled mode like the one you show. Since there are an
> enormous number of possible variables, it’s always tough to know exactly
> how much of an issue you will have.
>
> One common answer - run your profile runs at the temperature change rate
> you are most likely to see in practice.
>
> Another very common answer - don’t use that crystal, get one that does not
> have the problem. You can get parts with slopes  <0.1 ppm / C  over 10 to
> 50 C. You might have to spend some quality time sorting them out ….
>
> Bob
>
> > This data is currently 3 day's worth and seems to repeat itself on both
> days at the same temperature point.  Attached is a time based graph to show
> that.  The ppm axis (on the right) is inverted to make it easier to see the
> relationship between the two.
> >
> >
> > Quoting Bob Camp :
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> This sort of thing is normally done with a precisely controlled
> temperature chamber and multi day temperature ramp runs. Even then there is
> a bit of “wonder what that was, let’s try it again”.
> >>
> >> If you are looking at a crystal oscillator, what you have is a
> perturbation in the frequency / temperature curve. The response you get
> will be temperature rate of change dependent.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>> On Nov 1, 2014, at 4:40 PM, Dan Drown  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I'm experimenting with using a temperature sensor to estimate local
> oscillator frequency changes.  My goal is to have a decent holdover clock
> for a NTP server with not so great GPS antenna placement.
> >>>
> >>> I've been sampling temperature every minute, measured by a DS18B20.
> I've been measuring local clock frequency differences, using chronyd's logs
> from the GPS's PPS.  At 28C through 21C, I get a pretty good result that
> fits a quadratic polynomial decently (0.117 ppm stddev).  I've attached the
> graph of that as "temp-clock-warmer.png".
> >>>
> >>> With the colder temperatures, there's a sudden drop off in frequency
> that I'm having a hard time finding a equation that fits as nicely.  All
> the examples I can find on the web look like third degree polynomials,
> while my data doesn't seem to fit that exactly.  The best result I've had
> so far (0.198 ppm stddev) is attached as "temp-clock.png" and uses the
> function:
> >>>
> >>> f(x) = -abs(a * (x - 20.88)) + b * ((x - 20.88)**2) + c * ((x -
> 20.88)**3)
> >>> a = 0.888582
> >>> b = 0.113806
> >>> c = -0.00445763
> >>>
> >>> Does anyone have any advice on how to better model this?  Has anyone
> seen this behavior?
> >>>
> >>> I can provide the raw data if that would help any.
> >>>
> ___
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] 1903 Railroad self-Winding / Self-setting Clock

Hi Hal:

I think there were a number of slave clock systems and some of them could do DST/ST changes and/or catch up from a power
failure.

That very well might have been what you heard.

To me the winding sounds like a muffled air compressor.
The setting sounds like Thunk.
Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Hal Murray wrote:

bro...@pacific.net said:

The click-click-click... is the self winding. A solenoid vibrates back and
forth and a pawl and ratchet winds the main spring.

I don't think that's what I was referring to. It was a long time ago so my
memory may be buggy.

The click-click-click... that I remember was loud enough to distract the
class. It only happened occasionally, ballpark of once per month or less.
The minute hand was making a step with each click.

I assumed there was some mechanism to remotely set the clock. I think it
ended up roughly correct. (I didn't even have a watch back then.)

Was there any alternative to SWCC technology in the 1950s time frame?

There's a heart shaped cam that forces the hour, minute and if the clock has
one the second hand to 12:00 and holds them there until the sync pulse goes
away. Note the second hand only was used on clocks in radio stations so they
could join the network. For that 1 second was close enough.

Is that one cam that gets all the hands or a separate cam for each hand?

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...

Hi Anthony,
 
It's a new circuit that has to be inserted, which is what I've done, but  
I'm not sure whether or not it's strictly necessary for the unit to function 
or  whether it's just there to get the lights sequencing properly and 
perhaps all  that's needed for basic functionality are just the links.
 
I'm leaving well alone for now to let the oscillator run overnight but  
will try it again tomorrow with just the links and see what happens.
I'm also hoping to get some idea of the between unit signalling,  although 
I only have Z3811s I'm hoping, with the boards being an almost  identical 
match, that what goes one way should be matched by what comes the  other.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
 
In a message dated 01/11/2014 22:41:09 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com  
writes:

I wasn't  clear from the photo whether the circuit was a representation of 
what is on  the board, and you just had to connect the pins listed together, 
or whether  this was a new circuit that had to be inserted.  Sounds like 
the  latter?

Anthony

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of 
GandalfG8--- via  time-nuts
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 4:04 PM
To:  time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom  Z3809A, Z3810A, 
Z3811A, Z3812...

Well, I'm happy to report that  Arthur's modification does do the trick, 
although I don't know why as I don't  have any data for the interface  as yet.
I daren't disturb the 15 pin  connector right now as this  Z3811A PCB is 
still out of its case and  connected to a breadboard  with wires just pushed 
into the sockets, and  for the same reason I don't have  any computer 
connection at the moment  either.

My implementation isn't quite as described, in that I've not  made a 
connection to the fault LED but am just manually pulling that input  high and 
low 
on the breadboard with another wire link as required.
Whether  or not this is part or all of the reason that my green "on"  light 
is  flashing rather than steady I don't know, but I am seeing the 1PPS and 
15MHz  outputs and the 15MHz looks to be conditioning ok.

Aside from the 5  volt supply, which I'm picking off from pin 5 of the 
header between u33 and  U34, and the aforementioned fault LED connection, all 
the  other  connections can be made to J5 externally and could be housed in a 
15  way  shell along with the switching circuits.

I'm still hopeful that some  cross linking of the right pairs might  
achieve the same result without  the extra circuitry, so "all" that needs to  
be 
done now is just to  identify the right pairs:-)

At least with it up and running it should  be easier to check out some  of 
the inter-unit signalling.

Thanks  Arthur, your efforts are much  appreciated.

regards

Nigel
GM8PZR







In  a message dated 01/11/2014 15:25:02 GMT Standard Time,  ar...@antamy.com
writes:

For  those who missed it, Arthur's  post is at 
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2010-June/047825.html and  the photo  
is at  
http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1photo1_zps87c505ca.jpg

Anthony




-Original   Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On  Behalf  Of Arthur 
Dent
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:20  PM
To:  time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361,  HP/Symmetricom  Z3809A, Z3810A, 
Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system

Bob  Stewart bob at  evoria.net
?? ? I have both of my units sitting on the  bench. I found that  I needed 
to connect them together to get the REF1  unit to come out of standby  ? . ??

Bob Camp kb8tq at  n1k.org
??I suspect that somebody will have  to figure out what the 15  pin 
connector / jumper is doing. On previous RFTG  units there was a way  to 
re-wire 
the crossover interface to fake out the slave  detect process.  That would let 
you run a single GPS equipped box and have it  behave  correctly. Without 
the fake wires trick none of them played nice  without  the slave being 
present ? 
.   ??
++
Reposting what I had  posted  over a week ago, in case you missed it ? .

Arthur Dent  golgarfrincham  at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 13:59:48 EDT 2014  ?? 
?  
Way back on Fri Jun 11  16:48:43 UTC 2010 I posted about using one of  
these units I had modified but  at the time there wasn't a single person  who 
was interested. I have been using  the RFTG-u REF1 since then and it  is a 
nice unit. The modifications I added  (including a power supply -see  photo) 
allows the lights to cycle through their  normal sequence on  warm-up and the 
second unit isn't needed at all ? .   ??

-Arthur
___
time-nuts   mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow  the  instructions   there.
___
time-nuts  mailing  list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to  
https://

Re: [time-nuts] Digital temperature compensation


dan-timen...@drown.org said:
> I'm experimenting with using a temperature sensor to estimate local
> oscillator frequency changes.  My goal is to have a decent holdover clock
> for a NTP server with not so great GPS antenna placement. 

This is for ntpd rather than chrony, but it's a good read:
  NTP temperature compensation
  http://www.ijs.si/time/temp-compensation/


> With the colder temperatures, there's a sudden drop off in frequency  that
> I'm having a hard time finding a equation that fits as nicely.

That section of the graph doesn't make sense to me.  I suspect a glitch in 
your setup.

When does your GPS unit run out of satellites?

Where is your temperature probe?  Is it in contact with the crystal inside 
the PC?  Is the PC doing anything?  In particular at the times when the data 
doesn't make sense?

PCs can do a lot of self heating.  Try running a big workload when the 
temperature is in the middle of the good range.




-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...

Hi

It’s an added circuit you need to build up and add to the box. It fakes out the 
slave detection logic.

Bob

> On Nov 1, 2014, at 6:41 PM, Anthony Roby  wrote:
> 
> I wasn't clear from the photo whether the circuit was a representation of 
> what is on the board, and you just had to connect the pins listed together, 
> or whether this was a new circuit that had to be inserted.  Sounds like the 
> latter?
> 
> Anthony
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8--- 
> via time-nuts
> Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 4:04 PM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, 
> Z3811A, Z3812...
> 
> Well, I'm happy to report that Arthur's modification does do the trick, 
> although I don't know why as I don't have any data for the interface  as yet.
> I daren't disturb the 15 pin connector right now as this  Z3811A PCB is still 
> out of its case and connected to a breadboard  with wires just pushed into 
> the sockets, and for the same reason I don't have  any computer connection at 
> the moment either.
> 
> My implementation isn't quite as described, in that I've not made a 
> connection to the fault LED but am just manually pulling that input high and 
> low on the breadboard with another wire link as required.
> Whether or not this is part or all of the reason that my green "on"  light is 
> flashing rather than steady I don't know, but I am seeing the 1PPS and 15MHz 
> outputs and the 15MHz looks to be conditioning ok.
> 
> Aside from the 5 volt supply, which I'm picking off from pin 5 of the header 
> between u33 and U34, and the aforementioned fault LED connection, all the  
> other connections can be made to J5 externally and could be housed in a 15  
> way shell along with the switching circuits.
> 
> I'm still hopeful that some cross linking of the right pairs might  achieve 
> the same result without the extra circuitry, so "all" that needs to  be done 
> now is just to identify the right pairs:-)
> 
> At least with it up and running it should be easier to check out some  of the 
> inter-unit signalling.
> 
> Thanks Arthur, your efforts are much appreciated.
> 
> regards
> 
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 01/11/2014 15:25:02 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com
> writes:
> 
> For  those who missed it, Arthur's post is at 
> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2010-June/047825.html and the photo  
> is at 
> http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1photo1_zps87c505ca.jpg
> 
> Anthony
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original  Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf  Of Arthur Dent
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:20 PM
> To:  time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom  Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, 
> Z3812A GPSDO system
> 
> Bob Stewart bob at  evoria.net
> ?? ? I have both of my units sitting on the bench. I found that  I needed to 
> connect them together to get the REF1 unit to come out of standby  ? . ??
> 
> Bob Camp kb8tq at n1k.org
> ??I suspect that somebody will have  to figure out what the 15 pin connector 
> / jumper is doing. On previous RFTG  units there was a way to re-wire the 
> crossover interface to fake out the slave  detect process. That would let you 
> run a single GPS equipped box and have it  behave correctly. Without the fake 
> wires trick none of them played nice  without the slave being present ? 
> .  ??
> ++
> Reposting what I had posted  over a week ago, in case you missed it ? .
> 
> Arthur Dent golgarfrincham  at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 13:59:48 EDT 2014  ?? ? 
> Way back on Fri Jun 11  16:48:43 UTC 2010 I posted about using one of these 
> units I had modified but  at the time there wasn't a single person who was 
> interested. I have been using  the RFTG-u REF1 since then and it is a nice 
> unit. The modifications I added  (including a power supply -see photo) allows 
> the lights to cycle through their  normal sequence on warm-up and the second 
> unit isn't needed at all ? .  ??
> 
> -Arthur
> ___
> time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the  instructions  there.
> ___
> time-nuts mailing  list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the  instructions there.
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and f

Re: [time-nuts] Digital temperature compensation

Hi

> On Nov 1, 2014, at 5:09 PM, Dan Drown  wrote:
> 
> Ok, I hadn't considered rate of change.  

It’s one of the limits on this sort of thing in general. It’s even more of an 
issue with a coupled mode like the one you show. Since there are an enormous 
number of possible variables, it’s always tough to know exactly how much of an 
issue you will have.

One common answer - run your profile runs at the temperature change rate you 
are most likely to see in practice. 

Another very common answer - don’t use that crystal, get one that does not have 
the problem. You can get parts with slopes  <0.1 ppm / C  over 10 to 50 C. You 
might have to spend some quality time sorting them out ….

Bob

> This data is currently 3 day's worth and seems to repeat itself on both days 
> at the same temperature point.  Attached is a time based graph to show that.  
> The ppm axis (on the right) is inverted to make it easier to see the 
> relationship between the two.
> 
> 
> Quoting Bob Camp :
>> Hi
>> 
>> This sort of thing is normally done with a precisely controlled temperature 
>> chamber and multi day temperature ramp runs. Even then there is a bit of 
>> “wonder what that was, let’s try it again”.
>> 
>> If you are looking at a crystal oscillator, what you have is a perturbation 
>> in the frequency / temperature curve. The response you get will be 
>> temperature rate of change dependent.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Nov 1, 2014, at 4:40 PM, Dan Drown  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm experimenting with using a temperature sensor to estimate local 
>>> oscillator frequency changes.  My goal is to have a decent holdover clock 
>>> for a NTP server with not so great GPS antenna placement.
>>> 
>>> I've been sampling temperature every minute, measured by a DS18B20.  I've 
>>> been measuring local clock frequency differences, using chronyd's logs from 
>>> the GPS's PPS.  At 28C through 21C, I get a pretty good result that fits a 
>>> quadratic polynomial decently (0.117 ppm stddev).  I've attached the graph 
>>> of that as "temp-clock-warmer.png".
>>> 
>>> With the colder temperatures, there's a sudden drop off in frequency that 
>>> I'm having a hard time finding a equation that fits as nicely.  All the 
>>> examples I can find on the web look like third degree polynomials, while my 
>>> data doesn't seem to fit that exactly.  The best result I've had so far 
>>> (0.198 ppm stddev) is attached as "temp-clock.png" and uses the function:
>>> 
>>> f(x) = -abs(a * (x - 20.88)) + b * ((x - 20.88)**2) + c * ((x - 20.88)**3)
>>> a = 0.888582
>>> b = 0.113806
>>> c = -0.00445763
>>> 
>>> Does anyone have any advice on how to better model this?  Has anyone seen 
>>> this behavior?
>>> 
>>> I can provide the raw data if that would help any.
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...

I wasn't clear from the photo whether the circuit was a representation of what 
is on the board, and you just had to connect the pins listed together, or 
whether this was a new circuit that had to be inserted.  Sounds like the latter?

Anthony

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8--- 
via time-nuts
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 4:04 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, 
Z3811A, Z3812...

Well, I'm happy to report that Arthur's modification does do the trick, 
although I don't know why as I don't have any data for the interface  as yet.
I daren't disturb the 15 pin connector right now as this  Z3811A PCB is still 
out of its case and connected to a breadboard  with wires just pushed into the 
sockets, and for the same reason I don't have  any computer connection at the 
moment either.
 
My implementation isn't quite as described, in that I've not made a connection 
to the fault LED but am just manually pulling that input high and low on the 
breadboard with another wire link as required.
Whether or not this is part or all of the reason that my green "on"  light is 
flashing rather than steady I don't know, but I am seeing the 1PPS and 15MHz 
outputs and the 15MHz looks to be conditioning ok.
 
Aside from the 5 volt supply, which I'm picking off from pin 5 of the header 
between u33 and U34, and the aforementioned fault LED connection, all the  
other connections can be made to J5 externally and could be housed in a 15  way 
shell along with the switching circuits.
 
I'm still hopeful that some cross linking of the right pairs might  achieve the 
same result without the extra circuitry, so "all" that needs to  be done now is 
just to identify the right pairs:-)
 
At least with it up and running it should be easier to check out some  of the 
inter-unit signalling.
 
Thanks Arthur, your efforts are much appreciated.
 
regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 01/11/2014 15:25:02 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com
writes:

For  those who missed it, Arthur's post is at 
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2010-June/047825.html and the photo  
is at 
http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1photo1_zps87c505ca.jpg

Anthony




-Original  Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf  Of Arthur Dent
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:20 PM
To:  time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom  Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, 
Z3812A GPSDO system

Bob Stewart bob at  evoria.net
?? ? I have both of my units sitting on the bench. I found that  I needed to 
connect them together to get the REF1 unit to come out of standby  ? . ??

Bob Camp kb8tq at n1k.org
??I suspect that somebody will have  to figure out what the 15 pin connector / 
jumper is doing. On previous RFTG  units there was a way to re-wire the 
crossover interface to fake out the slave  detect process. That would let you 
run a single GPS equipped box and have it  behave correctly. Without the fake 
wires trick none of them played nice  without the slave being present ? 
.  ??
++
Reposting what I had posted  over a week ago, in case you missed it ? .

Arthur Dent golgarfrincham  at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 13:59:48 EDT 2014  ?? ? 
Way back on Fri Jun 11  16:48:43 UTC 2010 I posted about using one of these 
units I had modified but  at the time there wasn't a single person who was 
interested. I have been using  the RFTG-u REF1 since then and it is a nice 
unit. The modifications I added  (including a power supply -see photo) allows 
the lights to cycle through their  normal sequence on warm-up and the second 
unit isn't needed at all ? .  ??

-Arthur
___
time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the  instructions  there.
___
time-nuts mailing  list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the  instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV for a beginner


ar...@antamy.com said:
> I'll do a bit more digging around and see if I can get the GPIB up and
> running in the next couple of weeks.

I've been happy with the ProLogic GPIB-USB gizmo.
  https://www.sparkfun.com/products/549

It took some fiddling to get going, but I like chasing that sort of thing.
  http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/hacks/probe.c


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system

Hi

I think if you look at the math, the 0.022 F cap isn’t going to take care of 
the rated 20 uA current drain for very long.

Bob

> On Nov 1, 2014, at 4:59 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob:
> 
> When we received new computers from HP and plugged them in the date/time was 
> correct.
> I believe the DS32xx series of RTCs, like those in wrist watches run on 
> almost no power.
> The trick is in getting a super cap with low leakage and low resistance.
> The super caps designed to keep memory chips alive may not power anything 
> needing more than a microamp.
> Mail_Attachment --
> Have Fun,
> 
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
> Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> I sort of doubt that a GPS aux supply is quite that low current. I have seen 
>> some RTC’s that won’t last a month on a coin cell. My recollection is that 
>> the Oncore backup is closer to that category than the “many years on a cap” 
>> group.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 31, 2014, at 9:26 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Bob:
>>> 
>>> When HP came out with the 300 series Rocky Mountain Basic computers they 
>>> were fitted with a super cap to power the RTC.
>>> I will keep time for some months.
>>> http://www.prc68.com/I/HPIB.shtml#300
>>> 
>>> Mail_Attachment --
>>> Have Fun,
>>> 
>>> Brooke Clarke
>>> http://www.PRC68.com
>>> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
>>> http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
>>> Bob Camp wrote:
 Hi
 
 The ultra cap is a pretty small one (physical small). You might be able to 
 find a larger (more farads) one that would fit in the same space. It’s not 
 going to help for a hours and hours sort of outage. It might get you from 
 dying in 15 minutes to dying in a half hour.
 
 Bob
 
> On Oct 31, 2014, at 12:42 PM, Tom Miller  wrote:
> 
> I thought so too. There is an ultracap in each unit.
> 
> 
> Tom
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Mike Seguin" 
> 
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> 
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 12:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, 
> Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system
> 
> 
>> I have both of my units sitting on the bench. I found that I needed to 
>> connect them together to get the REF1 unit to come out of standby.
>> 
>> I am using GPSCon to monitor and it appears to work fine.
>> 
>> One thing on my units, when I power cycled them, it started a 'survey' 
>> over! I didn't expect that. Are others seeing this. There must be a way 
>> to store the surveyed position
>> 
>> Tnx,
>> Mike
>> 
>> On 10/30/2014 3:59 PM, Bob Stewart wrote:
>>> Hi Anthony,
>>> Did you power cycle both units as part of connecting them together at 
>>> J5 to J5?  And can you remind me whether you are using the supplied 
>>> interface cable, or are you using something else?  After warmup, the ON 
>>> light is on for the REF-0 unit and the STBY light is on for the REF-1 
>>> unit.  While running, there is no output from J8 on the unit marked 
>>> STBY. J8 works on the unit marked ON.  There is a timestamp coming from 
>>> J6, and I think a 1PPS signal on some pin or other.
>>> 
>>> Bob From: Anthony Roby 
>>>  To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
>>> 
>>>  Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2014 2:24 PM
>>>  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, 
>>> Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system
>>> 
>>> I'm still having no luck with mine.  When I power on, the LEDs cycle, 
>>> the Fault light is on and the No GPS and Standby lights flash.  When I 
>>> connect my GPS antenna, the No GPS light stops flashing and stays on. 
>>> After several minutes only the Standby light is on.
>>> 
>>> When I connect both the Ref1 and Ref0 together with the interface 
>>> cable, the Fault lights on both units are illuminated.
>>> 
>>> Do you see the same?  I don't know what to infer from the Fault light 
>>> since there is no supplemental data to work from.
>>> 
>>> Anthony
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> 73,
>> Mike, N1JEZ
>> "A closed mouth gathers no feet"
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> ___
> time-nuts mailin

Re: [time-nuts] 1903 Railroad self-Winding / Self-setting Clock


bro...@pacific.net said:
> The click-click-click... is the self winding.  A solenoid vibrates back and
> forth and a pawl and ratchet winds the main  spring. 

I don't think that's what I was referring to.  It was a long time ago so my 
memory may be buggy.

The click-click-click... that I remember was loud enough to distract the 
class.  It only happened occasionally, ballpark of once per month or less.  
The minute hand was making a step with each click.

I assumed there was some mechanism to remotely set the clock.  I think it 
ended up roughly correct.  (I didn't even have a watch back then.)

Was there any alternative to SWCC technology in the 1950s time frame?


> There's a heart shaped cam that forces the hour, minute and if the clock has
> one the second hand to 12:00 and holds them  there until the sync pulse goes
> away. Note the second hand only was used on clocks in radio stations so they
> could join the network.  For that 1 second was  close enough. 

Is that one cam that gets all the hands or a separate cam for each hand?



-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz Rubidium reference source for frequency counter

2014-11-01 Thread Charles Steinmetz


Hal wrote:


> Yes, using TI mode is essential for getting down to the counter's limits.

What's going on there?  It's just a divide, right?  Is the firmware not smart
enough to do get enough precision?

Do all counters have that problem?


The raw TI data have all of the benefit of the interpolation done by 
the basic TI counter.  To get frequency (or period), the counter 
divides the TI into (or by) the event count, which is an integer that 
is more granular than the interpolated TI result.  This reduces 
precision (not necessarily by a huge amount, since it's typically a 
big integer) and has the potential to introduce periodic anomalies 
into the data.


To my knowledge, all TI-based counters behave this way.

Best regards,

Charles



___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Digital temperature compensation


I gave zunzun a try and the one with the lowest root mean squared error was:
f(x) = a( x**0.5) + b( x ) + c( sin(x) ) + d( cos(x) )

It got 0.202 RMSE, so I guess I'll stick with my original function as  
it seems to be closer to what I expect will happen at colder/hotter  
temps.


You have a good point about temperatures outside my data samples.   
Once it gets hot again in the summertime, I'm sure I'll have to  
re-evaluate this.


Quoting Mark Sims :
You could try submitting your data to zunzun.com   It will fit it to  
around 40,000 different curves and find the best ones.


Beware that with all curve fitting formulas,  once your live data  
starts to wander out of the range of your original curve fit data,   
things can go rather badly...


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz Rubidium reference source for frequency counter

2014-11-01 Thread Angus

On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 23:40:04 -0400, you wrote:

>John wrote:
>
>>It seems to me that it's just a case of expecting too much from a counter.
>
>Possibly, but a well-tuned 5370B can get to the low e-12's at 1-10 
>seconds.  It has better one-shot resolution than the Pendulum, but 
>not by a factor of 10.  So, I'd have thought the Pendulum would at 
>least get to the mid e-11's if the time base was up to it.

The 'Smart Freq' feature on the CNT-91 appears to do multiple
measurements over the gate time to get an improved resolution, kind of
like the 53131/2. 
In practice, when 11 digits or whatever are claimed, I usually find
that there is just a little bit of information in the last digit, not
that it's a solid reading to that number of digits.

In the Measurement Uncertainties section of the manual, would the
formula for frequency suggest that Smart Freq makes the result up from
multiple measurements of 0.4 times the nominal gate time?

>>To get the best performance from a counter, you need to set up the 
>>trigger thresholds well away from ground as Charles says.  Also 
>>consider taking TI readings rather than frequency 
>>readings.  Frequency readings are OK for initial setup and basic 
>>ADEV comparisons but they won't generally yield the best ADEV 
>>fidelity or the lowest possible measurement floor.
>
>Yes, using TI mode is essential for getting down to the counter's 
>limits.  Was Karen using frequency mode?  I wasn't paying attention 
>to that end of things.

I don't know exactly how the CNT-91 does it, but the older CNT-81 can
do a lot of measurements in Time Interval A to B mode. With a static
delay, my 6681 gives a SD of about 0.22ps for a set of 100 1-second
measurements (a 10MHz square wave was driving the inputs). One little
thing I noticed there was that the reference freq needed to be at
least 3ppm off the input frequency to get quite that low. 
The newer series seem to need a bit of an offset too:
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2014-September/086701.html

Angus.

>Best regards,
>
>Charles
>
>
>
>___
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] 1903 Self-setting / self-winding clock


Hi Mike:

There's a heart shaped cam that forces the hour, minute and if the clock has one the second hand to 12:00 and holds them 
there until the sync pulse goes away.
Note the second hand only was used on clocks in radio stations so they could join the network.  For that 1 second was 
close enough.

http://www.prc68.com/I/SWCC2.shtml

Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Mike Baker wrote:

Time-Nutters--

This particular 1903 Railroad self-setting/winding
pendulum regulated clock needed only an hourly
signal from a Western Union telegraph line to
provide momentary closure of a relay contact.
This supplied +3 VDC to rewind the spring and also
reset the sweep seconds hand on the hour, every hour.

From what I have learned about this, the resetting of
the sweep seconds hand is mechanically coordinated
to occur when the pendulum is at either end of its
swing.  It appears that is no way (that I know of) to
guarantee that the "telegraphed" reset pulse would
coincide with either end of the pendulum's travel.

Apparently, the resetting of the sweep seconds hand
will only occur within the time frame of any single
pendulum swing.  I suppose this means that the clock
might be in error by as much as nearly one swing of
the pendulum because it has to reach the end of its
swing before the second hand is reset.

Just guessing here, but I am thinking that all this
clock needs is a 1-second long closure of a relay
contact on the hour, every hour.   I don't think
that leap-seconds are an issue here as the clock
can be manually adjusted for that whenever a leap
second occurs.  So-- it comes back to counting
3600 one-second pulses from a GPS clock...?  Or
am I missing something here...?

Mike Baker




___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] 1903 Railroad self-Winding / Self-setting Clock

2014-11-01 Thread Bob Stewart

Didn't the clocks in cars back in the day use the same sort of thing to wind 
themselves?  Though I remember a single click every x minutes, not the 
vibration of a solenoid.

Bob

  From: Brooke Clarke 
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement  
 Sent: Saturday, November 1, 2014 4:14 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1903 Railroad self-Winding / Self-setting Clock
   
Hi Hal:

The click-click-click... is the self winding.  A solenoid vibrates back and 
forth and a pawl and ratchet winds the main 
spring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIxOVo_0xgo&feature=youtu.be
Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Hal Murray wrote:


> We had something like that in school when I was a kid.  (many years ago)
>
> I remember occasional click-click-click... as it got reset.
>
>
> mp...@clanbaker.org said:
>> I am wondering what the easiest approach to this might be?    I suppose I
>> could take the 1-sec pulses from a GPSDO (Trimble Thunderbolt ?) and count
>> 3600 of them to generate a momentary reset 3VDC signal.  In any event, I
>> thought I would pass this by the Time-Nuts gang to see if any feedback is
>> available as to what the least complicated (simplest) way might be to
>> accomplish this.
> Counting to 3600 won't work with leap seconds.  :)
>
> I don't know the details of how a pulse sets the clock hands.  I assume it
> can't set the time to a fraction of a pendulum swing so I don't see much use
> for something fancy like a GPSDO.  But this is time-nuts, so anything is
> possible.
>
> I'd probably split the project into two parts.  One is to keep good time on a
> computer, say something like a Raspberry Pi.  You can use the net, or a low
> cost GPS unit, or something fancy like a GPSDO.
>
> The second part is how and when to generate the pulse.  You can use GPIO
> pins, or modem control signals.
>
> You could use an old PC, but the payback due to reduced power will pay for a
> Raspberry Pi in a year or two depending on your power rates and how much
> power your old PC burns.
>
>
>

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


  
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system


Hi Bob:

AFAICR on the old 6-channel Motorola GPS boards there was an option for a backup battery.  Without the backup battery if 
there was any power interruption the memory would erase and you needed to do a cold start.  Having the almanac and 
ephemeris, even if from a year ago has the effect of greatly reducing start-up time. In this case the purpose of the 
super cap is to prevent memory loss because of a power glitch not for long term power failure.

Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Well Q = CV. If delta V = 1 and C = 0.022 then Q = 0.022. That’s 22 ma for 1 
second or 22 ua for 1,000 seconds. At 5 ua you would get to about an hour. If 
the delta V is 2X that, the times would all double. If the current is 10X lower 
than the spec (it might be …) then you could get out to around a day.

Bob




On Nov 1, 2014, at 12:38 AM, Bob Stewart  wrote:

Hi Bob et al,
I don't understand the direction this question about the supercap has taken.  
It's connected to pin 1 of the GPS receiver.  It looks to be a UT+, so that's 
the battery backup power.  According to my UT+ manual the current draw on this 
pin is between 5uA (at 2.5V) and 100uA (at 5V)?  How many hours will a .022F 
supercap keep at least 2.5V at that sort of discharge rate?  Unless the cap has 
gone bad, it seems more likely that Bob's comment about it doing a fast survey 
and then doing a slower one in the background probably has merit.  In fact, my 
unit goes through its survey mode pretty quickly on power up.  So do those 
current/voltage figures imply several hours on the cap?

Bob
 From: Bob Camp 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, 
Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system

Hi

I sort of doubt that a GPS aux supply is quite that low current. I have seen 
some RTC’s that won’t last a month on a coin cell. My recollection is that the 
Oncore backup is closer to that category than the “many years on a cap” group.

Bob



On Oct 31, 2014, at 9:26 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:

Hi Bob:

When HP came out with the 300 series Rocky Mountain Basic computers they were 
fitted with a super cap to power the RTC.
I will keep time for some months.
http://www.prc68.com/I/HPIB.shtml#300

Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

The ultra cap is a pretty small one (physical small). You might be able to find 
a larger (more farads) one that would fit in the same space. It’s not going to 
help for a hours and hours sort of outage. It might get you from dying in 15 
minutes to dying in a half hour.

Bob


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Selling time to the railroad

Hi Howard:

From what I know the USNO used a Photographic Zenity Tube that made use of a pool of Mercury and glass plate that was
exposed 4 times for a single star meridian crossing. The plate was then read using what amounts to a microscope and
large X-Y table and after doing some math the exact time (within a millisecond or so) of the meridian crossing could be
determined. Since the exposure was based on the observatory sidereal clock the answer was in sidereal time. This
nighttime activity is needed to maintain the observatory clock.

I suspect that the source of local time would be one of the ticks from the sidereal clock. So providing the noon or
hourly time ticks is a different activity.

Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Howard Davidson wrote:
The physics department at the little Liberal Arts college I went to in Iowa, Grinnell college, used to sell time to
the Rock Island Railroad. We had two excellent pendulum clocks that back when this was in action, were synchronized to
zenith crossings of particular stars. This was a manual operation performed by undergraduates who were paid to be up
at weird hours of the night. The time ticks from the clocks were transmitted to the Rock Island station in town
electrically. I presume they distributed it by telegraph.

hld

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

[time-nuts] HP 5300B - HP 5308A Counter Time Base...


Tom & Bob,

Thanks for the comments and quick reply.  Tom, 
when I originally did a  google search I did not 
see the site that you sent, but from your 
guidance I did find the manual showing the 
frequency adjustment and I'm letting the 
5300B/5308A combination counter heat up.  From a 
cold start it's about 6+ Hz low when compared to 
my house GPS reference - a DATUM 9390-52054.


In a bit I'll give the thing a tweak and it 
should come right in as Bob suggests.  I don't 
know the history of this counter except that the 
fellow that gave it to me has nothing to really 
compare it against nor the experience to question 
its accuracy.  On my unit the oscillator 
adjustment marking is gone, but the hole for the 
adjustment thankfully is still there :>


I'll let you know how it goes - should be a simple tweak.

Thanks Guys,

Burt K6OQK



From: "Tom Miller" 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5300B - HP 5308A Counter Time Base

Hi Bert,

The service manual for the 5300B is on the keysight.com site under manuals.

http://www.keysight.com/main/techSupport.jspx?searchT=5300B&id=5300B:epsg:pro&pageMode=OV&pid=5300B:epsg:pro&cc=US&lc=eng

Do you have a frequency reference (house standard) that you can use to
adjust the reference in the counter? See the manual.

Regards,
Tom

From: "Burt I. Weiner" 

>I was recently given a HP-5300B / 5308A counter. I thought it might be
>handy when I'm at an AM broadcast transmitter and need to make "rough"
>frequency measurements.  It turns out that at 1000 kHz it reads about 4.5
>Hz high. Looking inside I'm not sure if there's a time base adjustment.  I
>looked at the on-line manuals available and I don't find any reference to
>adjusting the time base frequency.  Does anyone here know anything about
>these counters?  Is there a schematic available?  I'm not looking for
>precision, but 4.5 Hz at 1 MHz seems a tad much.
>
> Burt, K6OQK
>

--

From: Bob Camp 

Hi

4.5 Hz at 1 MHz is 4.5 ppm. Thatâs not out of 
the likely adjustment range on the basic crystal 
reference on a 5308. Itâs probably a simple 
tweak to get it back into calibration.


Bob


Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
b...@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK 


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Setting Clocks in the Mid 1800's


Hi Larry:

Yes, please.
Here's my Dent Dipleidoscope:
http://www.prc68.com/I/Dent.shtml

Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Sanjeev Gupta wrote:

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Larry McDavid  wrote:


I gave a presentation on the Dent Dipleidoscope at the Harvard conference
of the North American Sundial Society in 2013. If anyone is interested, I
can provide a pdf of that presentation. The presentation includes history,
detailed explanation of operation and lots of pictures of the construction
of the dipleidoscope.


(specifically on-list)

Larry, I, for one, would appreciate your presentation.



___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] 1903 Railroad self-Winding / Self-setting Clock

Hi Hal:

The click-click-click... is the self winding. A solenoid vibrates back and forth and a pawl and ratchet winds the main
spring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIxOVo_0xgo&feature=youtu.be
Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Hal Murray wrote:

We had something like that in school when I was a kid. (many years ago)

I remember occasional click-click-click... as it got reset.

mp...@clanbaker.org said:

I am wondering what the easiest approach to this might be?I suppose I
could take the 1-sec pulses from a GPSDO (Trimble Thunderbolt ?) and count
3600 of them to generate a momentary reset 3VDC signal. In any event, I
thought I would pass this by the Time-Nuts gang to see if any feedback is
available as to what the least complicated (simplest) way might be to
accomplish this.

Counting to 3600 won't work with leap seconds. :)

I don't know the details of how a pulse sets the clock hands. I assume it
can't set the time to a fraction of a pendulum swing so I don't see much use
for something fancy like a GPSDO. But this is time-nuts, so anything is
possible.

I'd probably split the project into two parts. One is to keep good time on a
computer, say something like a Raspberry Pi. You can use the net, or a low
cost GPS unit, or something fancy like a GPSDO.

The second part is how and when to generate the pulse. You can use GPIO
pins, or modem control signals.

You could use an old PC, but the payback due to reduced power will pay for a
Raspberry Pi in a year or two depending on your power rates and how much
power your old PC burns.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Digital temperature compensation

Ok, I hadn't considered rate of change.  This data is currently 3  
day's worth and seems to repeat itself on both days at the same  
temperature point.  Attached is a time based graph to show that.  The  
ppm axis (on the right) is inverted to make it easier to see the  
relationship between the two.



Quoting Bob Camp :

Hi

This sort of thing is normally done with a precisely controlled  
temperature chamber and multi day temperature ramp runs. Even then  
there is a bit of “wonder what that was, let’s try it again”.


If you are looking at a crystal oscillator, what you have is a  
perturbation in the frequency / temperature curve. The response you  
get will be temperature rate of change dependent.


Bob


On Nov 1, 2014, at 4:40 PM, Dan Drown  wrote:

I'm experimenting with using a temperature sensor to estimate local  
oscillator frequency changes.  My goal is to have a decent holdover  
clock for a NTP server with not so great GPS antenna placement.


I've been sampling temperature every minute, measured by a DS18B20.  
 I've been measuring local clock frequency differences, using  
chronyd's logs from the GPS's PPS.  At 28C through 21C, I get a  
pretty good result that fits a quadratic polynomial decently (0.117  
ppm stddev).  I've attached the graph of that as  
"temp-clock-warmer.png".


With the colder temperatures, there's a sudden drop off in  
frequency that I'm having a hard time finding a equation that fits  
as nicely.  All the examples I can find on the web look like third  
degree polynomials, while my data doesn't seem to fit that exactly.  
 The best result I've had so far (0.198 ppm stddev) is attached as  
"temp-clock.png" and uses the function:


f(x) = -abs(a * (x - 20.88)) + b * ((x - 20.88)**2) + c * ((x - 20.88)**3)
a = 0.888582
b = 0.113806
c = -0.00445763

Does anyone have any advice on how to better model this?  Has  
anyone seen this behavior?


I can provide the raw data if that would help any.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts

and follow the instructions there.


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV for a beginner

Thanks - seems that I should be able to do this with my Racal-Dana 1992 counter.

Anthony

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Magnus 
Danielson
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 1:29 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Cc: mag...@rubidium.se
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV for a beginner

Anthony,

On 11/01/2014 02:29 PM, Anthony Roby wrote:
> I've been reading a lot about ADEV and following the threads on the list, 
> particularly Karen's in-flight thread.
> What I haven't come across is a simple explanation of the basic setup 
> required to go about collecting the data.
> John Miles referenced this page http://www.ke5fx.com/tpll.htm, and the 
> simple setup at the bottom of the page looks like a reasonable place 
> to start.  Seems that I'd need to acquire a phase detector and build 
> or buy some filters and the amp.  I can probably figure that out, but how do 
> I get the data into a PC?  Is there a basic hardware and software setup that 
> someone could point me to or recommend?

The time-interval counter, such as HP5370 or SR620, get started (channel
1) by a reference clock, such as 1 PPS and is then stopped (channel 2) by 
signal under test. The counter is typically read out through GPIB, even if some 
counters have serial interface and maybe even USB or Ethernet for really new 
(or retro-fitted), and the recommended path is to get a GPIB to USB interface 
for instance.
Then use John Miles TimeLab.

Cheers,
Magnus
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV for a beginner

Thanks for this.  I should have said that I have a Racal-Dana 1992 counter 
(with GPIB) and I have an Isotemp OCXO134-10, so its sounds like I just need 
the opamps, an RPD-1 and a GPIB-USB interface plus some software.  I'll do a 
bit more digging around and see if I can get the GPIB up and running in the 
next couple of weeks.

Anthony

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 3:18 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV for a beginner

Hi

The problem with setting up to measure any of this stuff is that it ??s *very* 
dependent on the gear you have. There ??s no big surprises below. It ??s all  
??spend more money and have fewer things to figure out ??. 

First you need a way to measure frequency out of your mixer (there are LOTS of 
ways  ? ):

If you grab a HP 5334 or HP 5335 to measure the frequency or time, you need to 
get the data out via GPIB. That ??s a project by it ??s self.

If you grab a HP 53131 or CNT 90 to measure the frequency, you can use a serial 
port. One less project, way more money.

If you grab a HP 5371, you just push a button and it pops up an ADEV plot. Less 
money than a 53131 (usually). It ??s a bit limited on the range it will do ADEV 
over.

If you grab a brand new Symmetricom Time Pod, you spend (gulp!!) a bit more. 
You can now do measurements easily over it ??s frequency range. (If you can 
afford that option - can I come play at your house ?)

Yes each of these is it ??s own little rabbit hole to wander down and each has 
it ??s own issues. 

Now you need a reference:

GPSDO ??s have their fans, they often have spurs and other  ??crud ?? on the 
output. They do have very good long term stability. 

OCXO ??s are often pretty quiet and spur free. You need some way to calibrate 
them for really long term stuff.

Rb ??s come in a wide range of sizes and costs. Some are better than others. 
Their ADEV at 1 second often not as good as an OCXO.

Cs standards and Hydrogen masers are (to me) in the same cost category as 
exotic test gear above. Fine for a company, not quite so easy for a basement 
guy.

Again each of these is a bit of a project by it ??s self. Often it turns into a 
 ??a couple of these and a couple of those ?? sort of solution. You only know 
something is right if you have another one to compare it to. 

Now you have some gear. Let ??s ignore building the mixer board and assume that 
??s taken care of already. 

Now you need software:

TimeLab is free and it will interface with many of the counters you might be 
using. It does all the math for you and puts up pretty plots. Highly 
recommended. There are other free software packages out there.

Stable32 is another commonly used program. You need to get the data out of the 
counter before you can use it. There are other paid programs out there, Stable 
32 is the best of the bunch.

An Excel spread sheet is indeed another option. The ADEV math is *not* very 
complicated. Excel can do it all very easily. 

Getting data out of the counter could be a terminal program sort of thing 
(serial port) or something more complex (GPIB). In both cases there are a 
number of programs to pick between. 

With software, things like what computer and operating system you have will 
influence your choices. I ??m a Mac person, but I also run Linux, Windows, 
FreeBSD and a few other things as needed. Most people have a favorite  ? .

So, that ??s the quick and dirty start to the  ??quick ADEV setup ?? process. 
There are:

4 counter like things X 4 reference ideas X (at least 4 mixer approaches) X 
(way more than) 4 software options = > 256 paths you could follow. 

That ??s quite a few, and many of them would be utter nonsense. Even pruning 
out the ones are unlikely to ever be followed, you still have lots.

Here ??s one:

1) Drive your  ??known good ?? reference OCXO into a Minicircuits RPD-1 mixer. 

2) Drive your  ??device under test ?? into the other side of the RPD-1

3) Amplify and limit the output with a  couple of OP-37 op amps running off of 
+/-15V.
first stage is an amp with high pass and low pass sections
second stage is an inverter / limiter (back to back diodes in a 
normal op amp inverter).
third stage is same as the second
you might (or might not) want a fourth stage 

4) Feed the +/- 0.7 V  limited output into a 5335  (DC couple the input) in 
talk only mode

5) Hook up the 5335 to a National Instruments GPIB card on a PC

6) Run a Visual Basic routine to grab the outputs and write them to a text 
file. 

7) Process the text file with Excel. Use the ADEV formula from the original 
NIST papers. 

There have been a *lot* of OCXO ??s tested that way in many different factories 
over a couple of decades. (Yes, it ??s probably easier these days to substitute 
Time Lab for steps 6 and 7). 

Is it the ideal

Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...

Well, I'm happy to report that Arthur's modification does do the trick,  
although I don't know why as I don't have any data for the interface  as yet.
I daren't disturb the 15 pin connector right now as this  Z3811A PCB is 
still out of its case and connected to a breadboard  with wires just pushed 
into the sockets, and for the same reason I don't have  any computer connection 
at the moment either.
 
My implementation isn't quite as described, in that I've not made a  
connection to the fault LED but am just manually pulling that input high and 
low  
on the breadboard with another wire link as required.
Whether or not this is part or all of the reason that my green "on"  light 
is flashing rather than steady I don't know, but I am seeing the 1PPS and  
15MHz outputs and the 15MHz looks to be conditioning ok.
 
Aside from the 5 volt supply, which I'm picking off from pin 5 of the  
header between u33 and U34, and the aforementioned fault LED connection, all 
the 
 other connections can be made to J5 externally and could be housed in a 15 
 way shell along with the switching circuits.
 
I'm still hopeful that some cross linking of the right pairs might  achieve 
the same result without the extra circuitry, so "all" that needs to  be 
done now is just to identify the right pairs:-)
 
At least with it up and running it should be easier to check out some  of 
the inter-unit signalling.
 
Thanks Arthur, your efforts are much appreciated.
 
regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 01/11/2014 15:25:02 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com  
writes:

For  those who missed it, Arthur's post is at  
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2010-June/047825.html and the photo  
is at  
http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1photo1_zps87c505ca.jpg

Anthony




-Original  Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf  Of Arthur 
Dent
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:20 PM
To:  time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom  Z3809A, Z3810A, 
Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system

Bob Stewart bob at  evoria.net
?? ? I have both of my units sitting on the bench. I found that  I needed 
to connect them together to get the REF1 unit to come out of standby  ? . ??

Bob Camp kb8tq at n1k.org
??I suspect that somebody will have  to figure out what the 15 pin 
connector / jumper is doing. On previous RFTG  units there was a way to re-wire 
the 
crossover interface to fake out the slave  detect process. That would let 
you run a single GPS equipped box and have it  behave correctly. Without the 
fake wires trick none of them played nice  without the slave being present ? 
.  ??
++
Reposting what I had posted  over a week ago, in case you missed it ? .

Arthur Dent golgarfrincham  at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 13:59:48 EDT 2014  ?? ? 
Way back on Fri Jun 11  16:48:43 UTC 2010 I posted about using one of these 
units I had modified but  at the time there wasn't a single person who was 
interested. I have been using  the RFTG-u REF1 since then and it is a nice 
unit. The modifications I added  (including a power supply -see photo) allows 
the lights to cycle through their  normal sequence on warm-up and the 
second unit isn't needed at all ? .  ??

-Arthur
___
time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the  instructions  there.
___
time-nuts mailing  list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the  instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

[time-nuts] Digital temperature compensation

2014-11-01 Thread Mark Sims

You could try submitting your data to zunzun.com   It will fit it to around 
40,000 different curves and find the best ones.   

Beware that with all curve fitting formulas,  once your live data starts to 
wander out of the range of your original curve fit data,  things can go rather 
badly...   
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system


Hi Bob:

When we received new computers from HP and plugged them in the date/time was 
correct.
I believe the DS32xx series of RTCs, like those in wrist watches run on almost 
no power.
The trick is in getting a super cap with low leakage and low resistance.
The super caps designed to keep memory chips alive may not power anything 
needing more than a microamp.
Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

I sort of doubt that a GPS aux supply is quite that low current. I have seen 
some RTC’s that won’t last a month on a coin cell. My recollection is that the 
Oncore backup is closer to that category than the “many years on a cap” group.

Bob



On Oct 31, 2014, at 9:26 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:

Hi Bob:

When HP came out with the 300 series Rocky Mountain Basic computers they were 
fitted with a super cap to power the RTC.
I will keep time for some months.
http://www.prc68.com/I/HPIB.shtml#300

Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

The ultra cap is a pretty small one (physical small). You might be able to find 
a larger (more farads) one that would fit in the same space. It’s not going to 
help for a hours and hours sort of outage. It might get you from dying in 15 
minutes to dying in a half hour.

Bob


On Oct 31, 2014, at 12:42 PM, Tom Miller  wrote:

I thought so too. There is an ultracap in each unit.


Tom

- Original Message - From: "Mike Seguin" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, 
Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system



I have both of my units sitting on the bench. I found that I needed to connect 
them together to get the REF1 unit to come out of standby.

I am using GPSCon to monitor and it appears to work fine.

One thing on my units, when I power cycled them, it started a 'survey' over! I 
didn't expect that. Are others seeing this. There must be a way to store the 
surveyed position

Tnx,
Mike

On 10/30/2014 3:59 PM, Bob Stewart wrote:

Hi Anthony,
Did you power cycle both units as part of connecting them together at J5 to J5? 
 And can you remind me whether you are using the supplied interface cable, or 
are you using something else?  After warmup, the ON light is on for the REF-0 
unit and the STBY light is on for the REF-1 unit.  While running, there is no 
output from J8 on the unit marked STBY. J8 works on the unit marked ON.  There 
is a timestamp coming from J6, and I think a 1PPS signal on some pin or other.

Bob From: Anthony Roby 
  To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
  Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2014 2:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, 
Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system

I'm still having no luck with mine.  When I power on, the LEDs cycle, the Fault 
light is on and the No GPS and Standby lights flash.  When I connect my GPS 
antenna, the No GPS light stops flashing and stays on. After several minutes 
only the Standby light is on.

When I connect both the Ref1 and Ref0 together with the interface cable, the 
Fault lights on both units are illuminated.

Do you see the same?  I don't know what to infer from the Fault light since 
there is no supplemental data to work from.

Anthony


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


--

73,
Mike, N1JEZ
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman

Re: [time-nuts] Digital temperature compensation

Hi

This sort of thing is normally done with a precisely controlled temperature 
chamber and multi day temperature ramp runs. Even then there is a bit of 
“wonder what that was, let’s try it again”. 

If you are looking at a crystal oscillator, what you have is a perturbation in 
the frequency / temperature curve. The response you get will be temperature 
rate of change dependent. 

Bob

> On Nov 1, 2014, at 4:40 PM, Dan Drown  wrote:
> 
> I'm experimenting with using a temperature sensor to estimate local 
> oscillator frequency changes.  My goal is to have a decent holdover clock for 
> a NTP server with not so great GPS antenna placement.
> 
> I've been sampling temperature every minute, measured by a DS18B20.  I've 
> been measuring local clock frequency differences, using chronyd's logs from 
> the GPS's PPS.  At 28C through 21C, I get a pretty good result that fits a 
> quadratic polynomial decently (0.117 ppm stddev).  I've attached the graph of 
> that as "temp-clock-warmer.png".
> 
> With the colder temperatures, there's a sudden drop off in frequency that I'm 
> having a hard time finding a equation that fits as nicely.  All the examples 
> I can find on the web look like third degree polynomials, while my data 
> doesn't seem to fit that exactly.  The best result I've had so far (0.198 ppm 
> stddev) is attached as "temp-clock.png" and uses the function:
> 
> f(x) = -abs(a * (x - 20.88)) + b * ((x - 20.88)**2) + c * ((x - 20.88)**3)
> a = 0.888582
> b = 0.113806
> c = -0.00445763
> 
> Does anyone have any advice on how to better model this?  Has anyone seen 
> this behavior?
> 
> I can provide the raw data if that would help any.
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] 1903 Railroad self-Winding / Self-setting Clock

Hi Mike:

The hourly synchronization 1 second wide pulse turns on a second prior to the
top of the hour and off at the top.

But . . . . it's not a low voltage pulse, but rather each clock is in a series loop where the external resistance is
more than an order of magnitude higher than the internal resistance of the solenoid. That's because T = L/R for
inductive circuits and using an external resistor lowers the time constant. When you use a DC source that has just
enough voltage to pull in the solenoid the movement is very sluggish, but when there's an external resistor in the
circuit the action is snappy and much stronger (to the point where for slave clocks it makes the difference between
advancing and just wiggling without advancement).

See for example the video at:
http://www.prc68.com/I/SWCC.shtml#SC

An energy efficient approach might be to start charging a large cap a minute prior to the top of the hour then discharge
it through a series power resistor using a one second wide pulse that ends at the top of the hour. Note it takes more
power to correct the clock if it's a couple minutes off than when it's on time, so there needs to be a lot of power in
the pulse.

PS the synchronizer by Ken's clocks uses a 4.5 V supply and is too weak to work
on my clocks.

PPS adding the series resistor is also needed in teletype circuits and for the
same reason, to get faster action.
Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Mike Baker wrote:

Hello, Time-Nutters--

A friend has a vintage oak-cabinet pendulum movement
clock made by The Self Winding Clock Company some time
around 1903. The company was formed in 1886. By the
early 1900's era, this clock was known for its relative
accuracy. These clocks were pendulum controlled and
powered by a rather small and frequently reset
mainspring that was wound hourly by a set of 1.5 VDC
dry-cell batteries. In 1890 (?) the Naval Observatory agreed
to telegraph standard railway time.Western Union,
which also owned the Self-Winding Clock Company, sold
these clocks to the railroads and sent the hourly time
coordinating signals around the country by telegraph.
My friend has one of the railroad clocks that has the
Western Union Telegraph hourly resetting option.

My friend thought it would be an interesting juxtaposition
of technology from two different eras by creating the
momentary 3-volt resetting pulse every hour from a
GPS disciplined oscillator / clock pulse.

I am wondering what the easiest approach to this might
be?I suppose I could take the 1-sec pulses from a
GPSDO (Trimble Thunderbolt ?) and count 3600 of them
to generate a momentary reset 3VDC signal. In any event,
I thought I would pass this by the Time-Nuts gang to see
if any feedback is available as to what the least complicated
(simplest) way might be to accomplish this.

Mike Baker
***

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Mercury Ion Clock

Hi

> On Nov 1, 2014, at 2:35 PM, Jim Lux  wrote:
> 
> On 11/1/14, 11:05 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
>> Jim,
>> 
>>> However, if you were happy with "lab grade" construction, and you have
>>> the Kurt Lesker and Duniway catalogs as bedside reading, I think you'd
>>> have a chance.
>> 
>> Yes. I guess a bit of baking out the build is also to be recommended.
>> I guess most of us don't do vacuum in our labs, so there is a challenge
>> in itself, as there is many beginners mistakes to be done there.
> 
> 
> I haven't done high vacuum in quite a few years, but it is fascinating and 
> frustrating. These days, quite a bit of surplus gear is out there that does 
> make life easier (e.g. turbo molecular pumps).  A Hg Ion system isn't real 
> huge, and doesn't have a big gas load, so a straightforward LN2 sorption pump 
> would probably work as a batch mode(e.g. a bunch of the right material, 
> plunged into a LN bath, and it the gas molecules just stick right to the 
> material.. )
> 
> 
>> 
>>> The ion trap and such is a fairly straightforward thing, from what I
>>> understand: you need the usual vacuum pumps and such to build one.  If
>>> you don't want it to run for years without servicing, then issues of the
>>> mercury content are less important.
>>> (BTW, the space clock uses thermal dissociation of HgO to get the
>>> mercury)
>> 
>> Have tou cared to get the right isotope or do you use the natural
>> abundance spreading? Hg-199 has an abundance of 16,87%.
> 
> Interesting, I don't know if they go out and sort it, or if they set up the 
> system so that it's basically a mass spec, and the wrong isotope doesn't make 
> it through the quadrupole filter.

Don’t in any way discount the amount of effort in getting that filter to work 
“right”.

>   I'll bet the latter. No matter how good your offline enrichment process is, 
> there will always be some other "stuff" in there.   For all I know, the 
> actual ion trap is specific to the mass of the ions.
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>>> The PMT is an off the shelf thing. Check out the amateur built fusion
>>> reactor (fusor) websites on where to get PMTs and amplifiers (they're
>>> used behind a scintillator)
>> 
>> Ah yes. Got a NaI(Tl) scintilator with about 1 cm copper filter and a
>> matching PMT. No amp thought, but then again, I do not know what I
>> should measure with it. :)
> 
> You can measure radiation from common household objects like bananas
> 
>> 
>>> The 40 GHz stuff these days is not nearly as exotic as it used to be.
>>> The challenge might be test equipment when you're debugging your 40 GHz
>>> synthesis chain.
>> 
>> I was thinking the same, especially when consider optical clocks, then
>> 40 GHz isn't as esoteric.

Can you get this all done with 40 GHz as your “top” frequency?

>> Traditional cesiums and rubidiums use a pair
>> of synthesized frequencies being then sent into a step-recover diode
>> inside a tuned cavity which then does the mixing and selects the right
>> combination.
> 
> Same scheme might work here. Next time I'm talking to one of the DSAC folks, 
> I'll ask how they do the synthesis chain.
> 
>> 
>>> I don't think it would be *easy*, but I think doable, and nothing in the
>>> system is particularly expensive or that exotic.  It's sort of like
>>> telescope building.. The raw materials to make a 18" reflector telescope
>>> aren't all that expensive, nor is there some secret sauce: it's just
>>> time to grind the mirror (and recover from mistakes) and build the
>>> system.
>> 
>> Would be a fun project to do, things to be learned.
>> 
> 
> For when you get tired of counting femtoseconds..

Then you need to build a second one to check the first one with.

Bob
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] 1903 Railroad self-Winding / Self-setting Clock

2014-11-01 Thread Bill Riches

Book info amazon

http://www.amazon.com/American-Clocks-Volume-Special-Self-Winding/dp/0930163
443/ref=sr_1_sc_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1414869823&sr=8-3-spell&keywords=american+cloc
ks+tran+duyly

73,

Bill, WA2DVU


Bill I responded to Mike there seems to be a number of threads running on
this.
So in fact you do have the telegraph coil in the clock. Makes sense to me.
Thats why the 100 V they needed to drive 10-20 ma through the coil over
distance and had to account for line loss.
The boook you mention. Online?
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL



---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection 
is active.
http://www.avast.com

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

[time-nuts] Digital temperature compensation

I'm experimenting with using a temperature sensor to estimate local  
oscillator frequency changes.  My goal is to have a decent holdover  
clock for a NTP server with not so great GPS antenna placement.


I've been sampling temperature every minute, measured by a DS18B20.   
I've been measuring local clock frequency differences, using chronyd's  
logs from the GPS's PPS.  At 28C through 21C, I get a pretty good  
result that fits a quadratic polynomial decently (0.117 ppm stddev).   
I've attached the graph of that as "temp-clock-warmer.png".


With the colder temperatures, there's a sudden drop off in frequency  
that I'm having a hard time finding a equation that fits as nicely.   
All the examples I can find on the web look like third degree  
polynomials, while my data doesn't seem to fit that exactly.  The best  
result I've had so far (0.198 ppm stddev) is attached as  
"temp-clock.png" and uses the function:


f(x) = -abs(a * (x - 20.88)) + b * ((x - 20.88)**2) + c * ((x - 20.88)**3)
a = 0.888582
b = 0.113806
c = -0.00445763

Does anyone have any advice on how to better model this?  Has anyone  
seen this behavior?


I can provide the raw data if that would help any.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV for a beginner

Hi

The problem with setting up to measure any of this stuff is that it’s *very* 
dependent on the gear you have. There’s no big surprises below. It’s all “spend 
more money and have fewer things to figure out”. 

First you need a way to measure frequency out of your mixer (there are LOTS of 
ways …):

If you grab a HP 5334 or HP 5335 to measure the frequency or time, you need to 
get the data out via GPIB. That’s a project by it’s self.

If you grab a HP 53131 or CNT 90 to measure the frequency, you can use a serial 
port. One less project, way more money.

If you grab a HP 5371, you just push a button and it pops up an ADEV plot. Less 
money than a 53131 (usually). It’s a bit limited on the range it will do ADEV 
over.

If you grab a brand new Symmetricom Time Pod, you spend (gulp!!) a bit more. 
You can now do measurements easily over it’s frequency range. (If you can 
afford that option - can I come play at your house ?)

Yes each of these is it’s own little rabbit hole to wander down and each has 
it’s own issues. 

Now you need a reference:

GPSDO’s have their fans, they often have spurs and other “crud” on the output. 
They do have very good long term stability. 

OCXO’s are often pretty quiet and spur free. You need some way to calibrate 
them for really long term stuff.

Rb’s come in a wide range of sizes and costs. Some are better than others. 
Their ADEV at 1 second often not as good as an OCXO.

Cs standards and Hydrogen masers are (to me) in the same cost category as 
exotic test gear above. Fine for a company, not quite so easy for a basement 
guy.

Again each of these is a bit of a project by it’s self. Often it turns into a 
“a couple of these and a couple of those” sort of solution. You only know 
something is right if you have another one to compare it to. 

Now you have some gear. Let’s ignore building the mixer board and assume that’s 
taken care of already. 

Now you need software:

TimeLab is free and it will interface with many of the counters you might be 
using. It does all the math for you and puts up pretty plots. Highly 
recommended. There are other free software packages out there.

Stable32 is another commonly used program. You need to get the data out of the 
counter before you can use it. There are other paid programs out there, Stable 
32 is the best of the bunch.

An Excel spread sheet is indeed another option. The ADEV math is *not* very 
complicated. Excel can do it all very easily. 

Getting data out of the counter could be a terminal program sort of thing 
(serial port) or something more complex (GPIB). In both cases there are a 
number of programs to pick between. 

With software, things like what computer and operating system you have will 
influence your choices. I’m a Mac person, but I also run Linux, Windows, 
FreeBSD and a few other things as needed. Most people have a favorite ….

So, that’s the quick and dirty start to the “quick ADEV setup” process. There 
are:

4 counter like things X 4 reference ideas X (at least 4 mixer approaches) X 
(way more than) 4 software options = > 256 paths you could follow. 

That’s quite a few, and many of them would be utter nonsense. Even pruning out 
the ones are unlikely to ever be followed, you still have lots.

Here’s one:

1) Drive your “known good” reference OCXO into a Minicircuits RPD-1 mixer. 

2) Drive your “device under test” into the other side of the RPD-1

3) Amplify and limit the output with a  couple of OP-37 op amps running off of 
+/-15V.
first stage is an amp with high pass and low pass sections
second stage is an inverter / limiter (back to back diodes in a 
normal op amp inverter).
third stage is same as the second
you might (or might not) want a fourth stage 

4) Feed the +/- 0.7 V  limited output into a 5335  (DC couple the input) in 
talk only mode

5) Hook up the 5335 to a National Instruments GPIB card on a PC

6) Run a Visual Basic routine to grab the outputs and write them to a text 
file. 

7) Process the text file with Excel. Use the ADEV formula from the original 
NIST papers. 

There have been a *lot* of OCXO’s tested that way in many different factories 
over a couple of decades. (Yes, it’s probably easier these days to substitute 
Time Lab for steps 6 and 7). 

Is it the ideal or perfect way to do it? Certainly not. It is one of many 
simple ways it can be done. Even this simple way has two forks in it (TimeLab 
or not). It also has a few features like a know good OCXO and the undocumented 
circuit on the output of the RPD-1. 

Quick, simple and pretty much useless to you. It’s my favorite way to do it, 
but that really should not make it your favorite.

What to do?

It’s really a multi part process. Break each section down and address it 
separately. You *do* have a goal in mind, but get each chunk running by it’s 
self. Do simple verifications each step of the way. Tie it all together at the 
end. Accept that you *will* spend som

Re: [time-nuts] HP 5300B - HP 5308A Counter Time Base Question...

2014-11-01 Thread Dave M

The time basse oscillator is only a crystal around a logic gate;  not 
exciting at all.  The adjustment is on the 5300A unit.  There is a hole in 
the rear panel of the case that allows adjustment.  You are going to need a 
calibrated standard of some kind to calibrate it against.


The manuals for both the 5300A and the 5309A are on the Keysight web site at 
http://www.keysight.com/main/facet.jspx?t=79910.g.3&cc=US&lc=eng&sm=g&no=0



Cheers,
Dave M


Burt I. Weiner wrote:

I was recently given a HP-5300B / 5308A counter. I thought it might
be handy when I'm at an AM broadcast transmitter and needed to make
"rough" frequency measurements.  It turns out that at 1000 kHz it
reads about 4.5 Hz high. Looking inside I'm not sure if there's a
time base adjustment.  I looked at the on-line manuals available and
I don't find any reference to adjusting the time base
frequency.  Does anyone here know anything about these counters?  Is
there a schematic available?  I'm not looking for precision, but 4.5
Hz at 1 MHz seems a tad much.

Burt, K6OQK

Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
b...@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK



___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] HP 5300B - HP 5308A Counter Time Base Question...

Hi

4.5 Hz at 1 MHz is 4.5 ppm. That’s not out of the likely adjustment range on 
the basic crystal reference on a 5308. It’s probably a simple tweak to get it 
back into calibration. 

Bob

> On Nov 1, 2014, at 3:19 PM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:
> 
> I was recently given a HP-5300B / 5308A counter. I thought it might be handy 
> when I'm at an AM broadcast transmitter and needed to make "rough" frequency 
> measurements.  It turns out that at 1000 kHz it reads about 4.5 Hz high. 
> Looking inside I'm not sure if there's a time base adjustment.  I looked at 
> the on-line manuals available and I don't find any reference to adjusting the 
> time base frequency.  Does anyone here know anything about these counters?  
> Is there a schematic available?  I'm not looking for precision, but 4.5 Hz at 
> 1 MHz seems a tad much.
> 
> Burt, K6OQK
> 
> Burt I. Weiner Associates
> Broadcast Technical Services
> Glendale, California  U.S.A.
> b...@att.net
> www.biwa.cc
> K6OQK 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] HP 5300B - HP 5308A Counter Time Base Question...

2014-11-01 Thread Tom Miller


Hi Bert,

The service manual for the 5300B is on the keysight.com site under manuals.

http://www.keysight.com/main/techSupport.jspx?searchT=5300B&id=5300B:epsg:pro&pageMode=OV&pid=5300B:epsg:pro&cc=US&lc=eng

Do you have a frequency reference (house standard) that you can use to 
adjust the reference in the counter? See the manual.


Regards,
Tom




- Original Message - 
From: "Burt I. Weiner" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 3:19 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5300B - HP 5308A Counter Time Base Question...


I was recently given a HP-5300B / 5308A counter. I thought it might be 
handy when I'm at an AM broadcast transmitter and needed to make "rough" 
frequency measurements.  It turns out that at 1000 kHz it reads about 4.5 
Hz high. Looking inside I'm not sure if there's a time base adjustment.  I 
looked at the on-line manuals available and I don't find any reference to 
adjusting the time base frequency.  Does anyone here know anything about 
these counters?  Is there a schematic available?  I'm not looking for 
precision, but 4.5 Hz at 1 MHz seems a tad much.


Burt, K6OQK

Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
b...@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there. 


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

[time-nuts] HP 5300B - HP 5308A Counter Time Base Question...

I was recently given a HP-5300B / 5308A counter. I thought it might 
be handy when I'm at an AM broadcast transmitter and needed to make 
"rough" frequency measurements.  It turns out that at 1000 kHz it 
reads about 4.5 Hz high. Looking inside I'm not sure if there's a 
time base adjustment.  I looked at the on-line manuals available and 
I don't find any reference to adjusting the time base 
frequency.  Does anyone here know anything about these counters?  Is 
there a schematic available?  I'm not looking for precision, but 4.5 
Hz at 1 MHz seems a tad much.


Burt, K6OQK

Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
b...@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK 


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Mercury Ion Clock

2014-11-01 Thread Jim Lux


On 11/1/14, 11:05 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:

Jim,


However, if you were happy with "lab grade" construction, and you have
the Kurt Lesker and Duniway catalogs as bedside reading, I think you'd
have a chance.


Yes. I guess a bit of baking out the build is also to be recommended.
I guess most of us don't do vacuum in our labs, so there is a challenge
in itself, as there is many beginners mistakes to be done there.



I haven't done high vacuum in quite a few years, but it is fascinating 
and frustrating. These days, quite a bit of surplus gear is out there 
that does make life easier (e.g. turbo molecular pumps).  A Hg Ion 
system isn't real huge, and doesn't have a big gas load, so a 
straightforward LN2 sorption pump would probably work as a batch 
mode(e.g. a bunch of the right material, plunged into a LN bath, and it 
the gas molecules just stick right to the material.. )






The ion trap and such is a fairly straightforward thing, from what I
understand: you need the usual vacuum pumps and such to build one.  If
you don't want it to run for years without servicing, then issues of the
mercury content are less important.
(BTW, the space clock uses thermal dissociation of HgO to get the
mercury)


Have tou cared to get the right isotope or do you use the natural
abundance spreading? Hg-199 has an abundance of 16,87%.


Interesting, I don't know if they go out and sort it, or if they set up 
the system so that it's basically a mass spec, and the wrong isotope 
doesn't make it through the quadrupole filter.  I'll bet the latter. No 
matter how good your offline enrichment process is, there will always be 
some other "stuff" in there.   For all I know, the actual ion trap is 
specific to the mass of the ions.







The PMT is an off the shelf thing. Check out the amateur built fusion
reactor (fusor) websites on where to get PMTs and amplifiers (they're
used behind a scintillator)


Ah yes. Got a NaI(Tl) scintilator with about 1 cm copper filter and a
matching PMT. No amp thought, but then again, I do not know what I
should measure with it. :)


You can measure radiation from common household objects like bananas




The 40 GHz stuff these days is not nearly as exotic as it used to be.
The challenge might be test equipment when you're debugging your 40 GHz
synthesis chain.


I was thinking the same, especially when consider optical clocks, then
40 GHz isn't as esoteric. Traditional cesiums and rubidiums use a pair
of synthesized frequencies being then sent into a step-recover diode
inside a tuned cavity which then does the mixing and selects the right
combination.


Same scheme might work here. Next time I'm talking to one of the DSAC 
folks, I'll ask how they do the synthesis chain.





I don't think it would be *easy*, but I think doable, and nothing in the
system is particularly expensive or that exotic.  It's sort of like
telescope building.. The raw materials to make a 18" reflector telescope
aren't all that expensive, nor is there some secret sauce: it's just
time to grind the mirror (and recover from mistakes) and build the
system.


Would be a fun project to do, things to be learned.



For when you get tired of counting femtoseconds..

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV for a beginner


Anthony,

On 11/01/2014 02:29 PM, Anthony Roby wrote:

I've been reading a lot about ADEV and following the threads on the list, 
particularly Karen's in-flight thread.
What I haven't come across is a simple explanation of the basic setup required 
to go about collecting the data.
John Miles referenced this page http://www.ke5fx.com/tpll.htm, and the simple 
setup at the bottom of the page looks
like a reasonable place to start.  Seems that I'd need to acquire a phase 
detector and build or buy some filters and
the amp.  I can probably figure that out, but how do I get the data into a PC?  
Is there a basic hardware and software
setup that someone could point me to or recommend?


The time-interval counter, such as HP5370 or SR620, get started (channel 
1) by a reference clock, such as 1 PPS and is then stopped (channel 2) 
by signal under test. The counter is typically read out through GPIB, 
even if some counters have serial interface and maybe even USB or 
Ethernet for really new (or retro-fitted), and the recommended path is 
to get a GPIB to USB interface for instance.

Then use John Miles TimeLab.

Cheers,
Magnus
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] BBC TV program "Click" has material about GPS jammingand e Loran

2014-11-01 Thread Alan Melia

The politics of this system are a bit dubious as are the claims on accuracy 
and freedon from jamming. But it does give us another off-air frequency 
standard.


Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)" 

To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 3:07 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] BBC TV program "Click" has material about GPS 
jammingand e Loran



"Click" is a short TV program produced by the BBC about tech related 
things.


Anyway, the issue I see today (1/11/2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04p21jv

had a bit about GPS failure, GPS jamming, and use of eLORAN as a backup.


*Hopefully* you can see it on the BBC iPlayer if interested, although
I am not sure if those outside the UK can see it - you might need to
use a proxy server in the UK, since I have no idea if they block
access based on IP.

Also more on the BBC in the last 24 hours or so about this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29758872


Dr. David Kirkby Ph.D CEng MIET
Kirkby Microwave Ltd
Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Essex, CM3 
6DT, UK.

Registered in England and Wales, company number 08914892.
http://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/
Tel: 07910 441670 / +44 7910 441670 (0900 to 2100 GMT only please)
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there. 


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Mercury Ion Clock


Paul,

The lack of hydrogen masers here is disturbing. So is better cesiums 
tanked up and fresh.


Will see what I can do with what I got.

Fixing up rubidiums and cesiums is currently how far this lab goes.

Cheers,
Magnus


On 11/01/2014 06:23 PM, paul swed wrote:

Magnus I would say that yes I do have various backups and none as good as
any of this discussion. Agreeing with Jim much of this appears to me to be
semi-reasonable and in particular in a amateur lab environment. But I am
afraid thats just about how far I am going to get on the project. Its right
behind the H maser. Any day now. Recovering the Frankenstein CS was about
my real limit. I haven't seen any tubes show up on ebay lately. :-) Such is
life.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Jim Lux  wrote:


On 11/1/14, 9:08 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:


Paul,

You mean, as all time-nuts already have redundant sites with at least 4
5071As with high-performance tubes, redundant cesium and rubidium
fointains, set of active hydrogen masers, with everything in tight
temperature, humidity and pressure control, UPS and diesel-engines,
GPS/GLONASS/GALILEO receiver on temperature-stabilized piller and
antenna, do TWSTFT to major labs... since money is no issue, right?

The main problem with cesium tubes as I recall it is really the ionizer
in the mass-spectrometer being poluted with cesium, this then creates
bad S/N before running out of cesium in the oven.

Yes, I agree it would be a great clock to have, but practical limits in
cost is a challenge for most, so it would be interesting to look at it
and ask how cheap it could be done.





Having been to a few of the design reviews and such for the DSAC, and
before, when it was called the 1 liter atomic clock, etc.

I think one could build one *if* you have a fairly wide collection of
skills, and you weren't hung up on it being tiny and low power, and zero
maintenance.

For instance, building a perfectly sealed physics package that is space
flight compatible is non-trivial. Most of us don't have e-beam welding
equipment sitting around (nor does JPL.. we contract that kind of stuff
out).  As Prestage points out in the article below, they started looking at
how they build long life Traveling Wave Tubes for space (another precision
ion optics device), and having spent some time in various TWT factories
over the past 15 years: there is a lot of art in the manufacturing process.

http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/41329/1/07-2003.pdf
http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/41395/1/08-0610.pdf

However, if you were happy with "lab grade" construction, and you have the
Kurt Lesker and Duniway catalogs as bedside reading, I think you'd have a
chance.

The ion trap and such is a fairly straightforward thing, from what I
understand: you need the usual vacuum pumps and such to build one.  If you
don't want it to run for years without servicing, then issues of the
mercury content are less important.
(BTW, the space clock uses thermal dissociation of HgO to get the mercury)

The PMT is an off the shelf thing. Check out the amateur built fusion
reactor (fusor) websites on where to get PMTs and amplifiers (they're used
behind a scintillator)

The 40 GHz stuff these days is not nearly as exotic as it used to be. The
challenge might be test equipment when you're debugging your 40 GHz
synthesis chain.



I don't think it would be *easy*, but I think doable, and nothing in the
system is particularly expensive or that exotic.  It's sort of like
telescope building.. The raw materials to make a 18" reflector telescope
aren't all that expensive, nor is there some secret sauce: it's just time
to grind the mirror (and recover from mistakes) and build the system.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Mercury Ion Clock


Jim,

On 11/01/2014 05:49 PM, Jim Lux wrote:

Having been to a few of the design reviews and such for the DSAC, and
before, when it was called the 1 liter atomic clock, etc.

I think one could build one *if* you have a fairly wide collection of
skills, and you weren't hung up on it being tiny and low power, and zero
maintenance.

For instance, building a perfectly sealed physics package that is space
flight compatible is non-trivial. Most of us don't have e-beam welding
equipment sitting around (nor does JPL.. we contract that kind of stuff
out).  As Prestage points out in the article below, they started looking
at how they build long life Traveling Wave Tubes for space (another
precision ion optics device), and having spent some time in various TWT
factories over the past 15 years: there is a lot of art in the
manufacturing process.


Ah, yes, *most* time-nuts is not aiming to shoot their clocks into deep 
space. We are satisfied to stay in geostationary orbit or lower ;-)



http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/41329/1/07-2003.pdf
http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/41395/1/08-0610.pdf

However, if you were happy with "lab grade" construction, and you have
the Kurt Lesker and Duniway catalogs as bedside reading, I think you'd
have a chance.


Yes. I guess a bit of baking out the build is also to be recommended.
I guess most of us don't do vacuum in our labs, so there is a challenge 
in itself, as there is many beginners mistakes to be done there.



The ion trap and such is a fairly straightforward thing, from what I
understand: you need the usual vacuum pumps and such to build one.  If
you don't want it to run for years without servicing, then issues of the
mercury content are less important.
(BTW, the space clock uses thermal dissociation of HgO to get the mercury)


Have tou cared to get the right isotope or do you use the natural 
abundance spreading? Hg-199 has an abundance of 16,87%.



The PMT is an off the shelf thing. Check out the amateur built fusion
reactor (fusor) websites on where to get PMTs and amplifiers (they're
used behind a scintillator)


Ah yes. Got a NaI(Tl) scintilator with about 1 cm copper filter and a 
matching PMT. No amp thought, but then again, I do not know what I 
should measure with it. :)



The 40 GHz stuff these days is not nearly as exotic as it used to be.
The challenge might be test equipment when you're debugging your 40 GHz
synthesis chain.


I was thinking the same, especially when consider optical clocks, then 
40 GHz isn't as esoteric. Traditional cesiums and rubidiums use a pair 
of synthesized frequencies being then sent into a step-recover diode 
inside a tuned cavity which then does the mixing and selects the right 
combination.



I don't think it would be *easy*, but I think doable, and nothing in the
system is particularly expensive or that exotic.  It's sort of like
telescope building.. The raw materials to make a 18" reflector telescope
aren't all that expensive, nor is there some secret sauce: it's just
time to grind the mirror (and recover from mistakes) and build the system.


Would be a fun project to do, things to be learned.

Cheers,
Magnus
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Mercury Ion Clock

Magnus I would say that yes I do have various backups and none as good as
any of this discussion. Agreeing with Jim much of this appears to me to be
semi-reasonable and in particular in a amateur lab environment. But I am
afraid thats just about how far I am going to get on the project. Its right
behind the H maser. Any day now. Recovering the Frankenstein CS was about
my real limit. I haven't seen any tubes show up on ebay lately. :-) Such is
life.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Jim Lux  wrote:

> On 11/1/14, 9:08 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>>
>> You mean, as all time-nuts already have redundant sites with at least 4
>> 5071As with high-performance tubes, redundant cesium and rubidium
>> fointains, set of active hydrogen masers, with everything in tight
>> temperature, humidity and pressure control, UPS and diesel-engines,
>> GPS/GLONASS/GALILEO receiver on temperature-stabilized piller and
>> antenna, do TWSTFT to major labs... since money is no issue, right?
>>
>> The main problem with cesium tubes as I recall it is really the ionizer
>> in the mass-spectrometer being poluted with cesium, this then creates
>> bad S/N before running out of cesium in the oven.
>>
>> Yes, I agree it would be a great clock to have, but practical limits in
>> cost is a challenge for most, so it would be interesting to look at it
>> and ask how cheap it could be done.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Having been to a few of the design reviews and such for the DSAC, and
> before, when it was called the 1 liter atomic clock, etc.
>
> I think one could build one *if* you have a fairly wide collection of
> skills, and you weren't hung up on it being tiny and low power, and zero
> maintenance.
>
> For instance, building a perfectly sealed physics package that is space
> flight compatible is non-trivial. Most of us don't have e-beam welding
> equipment sitting around (nor does JPL.. we contract that kind of stuff
> out).  As Prestage points out in the article below, they started looking at
> how they build long life Traveling Wave Tubes for space (another precision
> ion optics device), and having spent some time in various TWT factories
> over the past 15 years: there is a lot of art in the manufacturing process.
>
> http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/41329/1/07-2003.pdf
> http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/41395/1/08-0610.pdf
>
> However, if you were happy with "lab grade" construction, and you have the
> Kurt Lesker and Duniway catalogs as bedside reading, I think you'd have a
> chance.
>
> The ion trap and such is a fairly straightforward thing, from what I
> understand: you need the usual vacuum pumps and such to build one.  If you
> don't want it to run for years without servicing, then issues of the
> mercury content are less important.
> (BTW, the space clock uses thermal dissociation of HgO to get the mercury)
>
> The PMT is an off the shelf thing. Check out the amateur built fusion
> reactor (fusor) websites on where to get PMTs and amplifiers (they're used
> behind a scintillator)
>
> The 40 GHz stuff these days is not nearly as exotic as it used to be. The
> challenge might be test equipment when you're debugging your 40 GHz
> synthesis chain.
>
>
>
> I don't think it would be *easy*, but I think doable, and nothing in the
> system is particularly expensive or that exotic.  It's sort of like
> telescope building.. The raw materials to make a 18" reflector telescope
> aren't all that expensive, nor is there some secret sauce: it's just time
> to grind the mirror (and recover from mistakes) and build the system.
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...

I've confirmed from the model number that the GPS module on these is indeed 
 an Oncore UT+.

There's a Synergy engineering note available regarding Oncore battery  
backup, and one place a copy can be found is here...

http://f6fgz.free.fr/Fichiers/GPS/Backup_Battery_Considerations.pdf

If so desired, it would be possible to retrospectively convert  the UT+ on 
the Z3811A to take the usual rechargeable battery but the  precautions 
mentioned in the engineering note would need to be  implemented.
I'm running file checks on my archives right now so can't confirm  exactly 
what's involved, but I think there's one zero  ohm SMD chip to be removed at 
least, and fitting a battery can of  course bring its own issues.

If anyone's interested, I've just uploaded some detailed photos  of the of 
RFTG-U Ref-1 circuit board to Didier's manuals site.
Probably far more detail there than even the nuttiest of us might consider  
to be sane or healthy but I've got it apart anyway so what the  heck
and they might come in very useful if it decides to self  destruct whilst 
I'm poking it about on the bench:-)

Regards

Nigel
GM8PZR

In a message dated 01/11/2014 06:20:00 GMT Standard Time, b...@evoria.net  
writes:

Hi Bob  et al,
I don't understand the direction this question about the supercap  has 
taken.  It's connected to pin 1 of the GPS receiver.  It looks  to be a UT+, so 
that's the battery backup power.  According to my UT+  manual the current 
draw on this pin is between 5uA (at 2.5V) and 100uA (at  5V)?  How many hours 
will a .022F supercap keep at least 2.5V at that  sort of discharge rate?  
Unless the cap has gone bad, it seems more  likely that Bob's comment about 
it doing a fast survey and then doing a slower  one in the background 
probably has merit.  In fact, my unit goes through  its survey mode pretty 
quickly 
on power up.  So do those current/voltage  figures imply several hours on 
the cap?

Bob
From: Bob Camp 
To: Discussion of precise time and  frequency measurement 

Sent: Friday, October 31,  2014 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom  Z3809A, Z3810A, 
Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system

Hi

I  sort of doubt that a GPS aux supply is quite that low current. I have 
seen  some RTC’s that won’t last a month on a coin cell. My recollection is 
that the  Oncore backup is closer to that category than the “many years on a 
cap”  group.

Bob

> On Oct 31, 2014, at 9:26 PM, Brooke Clarke   wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob:
> 
>  When HP came out with the 300 series Rocky Mountain Basic computers they 
were  fitted with a super cap to power the RTC.
> I will keep time for some  months.
> http://www.prc68.com/I/HPIB.shtml#300
> 
>  Mail_Attachment --
> Have Fun,
> 
> Brooke Clarke
>  http://www.PRC68.com
>  http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
>  http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
> Bob Camp wrote:
>>  Hi
>> 
>> The ultra cap is a pretty small one (physical  small). You might be able 
to find a larger (more farads) one that would fit in  the same space. It’s 
not going to help for a hours and hours sort of outage.  It might get you 
from dying in 15 minutes to dying in a half hour.
>>  
>> Bob

___
time-nuts mailing list  -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the  instructions there.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

[time-nuts] 1903 Railroad self-Winding / Self-setting Clock

2014-11-01 Thread Bruce Hunter via time-nuts

The Western Union clocks used in broadcasting up through the middle 70's were 
designed to be corrected through one-second current pulses over a standard 60 
mA teletype loop.  The clocks were wired in series like the old series 
Christmas-tree bulbs.  

Internally, the clocks employed two 1-1/2 V dry cells to supply 3 VDC to the 
winding mechanism.  This was activated whenever the clock spring ran down and 
was independent of the setting (correcting) signal.  When winding, the clocks 
emitted a soft purr.

The setting mechanism was arranged so that the second-hand was seized and 
forced to the 00 position when the clock pulse arrived at xx:59.  It was 
released at xx:00 when the one-second pulse ended. I believe a clutch mechanism 
prevented this setting action from affecting the pendulum. 

As another writer mentioned, the clocks were ideally adjusted  to operate a 
fraction of a second slow in an hour's time; thus the second-hand was pulled 
forward a bit rather then retarded.  The lead pendulum was short and the 
mechanisms not very elegant; thus the clocks were not very accurate when 
operated without the setting signal.

I believe there was also a mechanical gate that allowed the clock to be reset 
only when the second hand was close to the 00 position.

My understanding was that master clocks were installed in Western Union offices 
in the major cities where time service was provided.  These master clocks 
actually generated the one-second pulses from xx:59 to xx:00 on each hour.  
Once a day a correcting pulse was routed across the country from the Naval 
Observatory.  This was sent over telegraph circuits that were used for other 
purposes, too.  At the appropriate time a technician had to enable the path to 
the office master clock to allow it to be corrected.  This was apparently a 
manual operation.
  
In originating network broadcast programs, timing accuracy needs to be well 
within one-second as one second typically represents about three words of the 
broadcast opening.  At one point the Western Union technicians went on strike 
forcing management personnel to take over technical operations.  Soon after we 
began noticing the clock error steadily increase.  Calling Western Union did 
not seem to help as it is possible the management personnel were not familiar 
with how to route the daily timing pulse to correct their office master clock.  
After a week or so, we were forced to construct a driver for the clocks based 
upon a crystal-controlled clock that was set from WWV.  When Western Union 
indicated they were dropping clock service, we elaborated on this to a 
precision time-code generator with provision for arming so as to introduce 
leap-seconds when needed and to change from standard to daylight time on 
schedule.

In broadcasting we used both digital and analog clocks.  The digital clocks 
were used for starting network feeds, but were not very acceptable to 
announcers reading copy or talking up to a switching point.  They strongly 
preferred the proportional indication of a clock hand as it is difficult to 
translate  digital indications into time left when trying to concentrate on 
other matters. 

Bruce, KG6OJI
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Mercury Ion Clock

2014-11-01 Thread Jim Lux


On 11/1/14, 9:08 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:

Paul,

You mean, as all time-nuts already have redundant sites with at least 4
5071As with high-performance tubes, redundant cesium and rubidium
fointains, set of active hydrogen masers, with everything in tight
temperature, humidity and pressure control, UPS and diesel-engines,
GPS/GLONASS/GALILEO receiver on temperature-stabilized piller and
antenna, do TWSTFT to major labs... since money is no issue, right?

The main problem with cesium tubes as I recall it is really the ionizer
in the mass-spectrometer being poluted with cesium, this then creates
bad S/N before running out of cesium in the oven.

Yes, I agree it would be a great clock to have, but practical limits in
cost is a challenge for most, so it would be interesting to look at it
and ask how cheap it could be done.





Having been to a few of the design reviews and such for the DSAC, and 
before, when it was called the 1 liter atomic clock, etc.


I think one could build one *if* you have a fairly wide collection of 
skills, and you weren't hung up on it being tiny and low power, and zero 
maintenance.


For instance, building a perfectly sealed physics package that is space 
flight compatible is non-trivial. Most of us don't have e-beam welding 
equipment sitting around (nor does JPL.. we contract that kind of stuff 
out).  As Prestage points out in the article below, they started looking 
at how they build long life Traveling Wave Tubes for space (another 
precision ion optics device), and having spent some time in various TWT 
factories over the past 15 years: there is a lot of art in the 
manufacturing process.


http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/41329/1/07-2003.pdf
http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/41395/1/08-0610.pdf

However, if you were happy with "lab grade" construction, and you have 
the Kurt Lesker and Duniway catalogs as bedside reading, I think you'd 
have a chance.


The ion trap and such is a fairly straightforward thing, from what I 
understand: you need the usual vacuum pumps and such to build one.  If 
you don't want it to run for years without servicing, then issues of the 
mercury content are less important.

(BTW, the space clock uses thermal dissociation of HgO to get the mercury)

The PMT is an off the shelf thing. Check out the amateur built fusion 
reactor (fusor) websites on where to get PMTs and amplifiers (they're 
used behind a scintillator)


The 40 GHz stuff these days is not nearly as exotic as it used to be. 
The challenge might be test equipment when you're debugging your 40 GHz 
synthesis chain.




I don't think it would be *easy*, but I think doable, and nothing in the 
system is particularly expensive or that exotic.  It's sort of like 
telescope building.. The raw materials to make a 18" reflector telescope 
aren't all that expensive, nor is there some secret sauce: it's just 
time to grind the mirror (and recover from mistakes) and build the system.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Mercury Ion Clock

2014-11-01 Thread Don Latham

Absolutely! but it's not just the price of the hardware. The clock has mercury
in it. Horrors! So the paperwork involved with the EPA, OSHA, and who knows
what other agency will cost more than the hardware. Best stick with a hydrogen
clock, just stick an icepick in it when you want to get rid of it; pt and
it's done. Safer than your old refrigerator. :-)

seriously, tn's, see:
http://www.microsemi.com/document-portal/doc_view/133441-rubidium-devices-material-safety-data-sheet

Don

paul swed
> Magnus,
> But for a time-nut how can price even enter into the conversation? Plus it
> only draws 10s of watts. A green super duper clock. Other comment I read is
> that there is no part that will wear out. Granted I suspect over many years
> something happens, but its not the typical CS depletion. I might speculate
> the glass windows fog or something or on earth the evacuated chamber
> ultimately leaks or the metal in the vacuum release stuff.
> No idea but pretty sure I won't be putting a watch on ebay any time soon.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 6:42 AM, Magnus Danielson > wrote:
>
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> The traditional Hg ion clock with it's 40,5 GHz frequency is doable, but
>> it would be interesting if it could be commercialized at a (time-nuts)
>> friendly price.
>>
>> The modern optical clock got much easier to work with when the frequency
>> comb was invented. The frequency comb and stable lasers is now
>> commercialized, but not cheap, not cheap at all.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>>
>> On 11/01/2014 02:27 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> Trapped ion clocks have been the “obvious successor” to a Cs tube for at
>>> least 30 years. There is a *lot* of very fancy work involved in getting
>>> from 10 MHz up to a very specific light wavelength with low ADEV and good
>>> phase noise…..
>>>
>>> Rocket science indeed. Time Nuts rocket science, but tough to do none the
>>> less.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>  On Oct 31, 2014, at 8:09 PM, paul swed  wrote:

 Humor aside. I did dig deeper. It seems that this technology could be
 commercialized in larger volumes and might land in the same cost as a
 good
 CS does today. Technically it looks reasonable.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL

 On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 1:45 PM, paul swed  wrote:

  Jim
> I am sorry to say thats the wrong clock picture.
> That picture is of 2 glass coffee tables and a toaster in between.
> I see you can order that art om ebay. Item number 142657nottoday3245
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 1:36 PM, Jim Lux  wrote:
>
>  OK, I know you all want to go get one...
>>
>> http://discoverjpl.jpl.nasa.gov/posts/520
>>
>> It's Bob Tjoelker in front of the Deep Space Atomic Clock (DSAC) being
>> tested for magnetic field sensitivity.  It's a trapped ion clock, 1
>> liter/1
>> kg, orders and orders of magnitude better than a USO in performance.
>>
>> (if it's in the building I think it's in, the rebar is made of
>> non-magnetic stainless steel)
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>
>  ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
 mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.

>>>
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>  ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>


-- 
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it."
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Mercury Ion Clock

2014-11-01 Thread Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)


Paul,

You mean, as all time-nuts already have redundant sites with at least 4 
5071As with high-performance tubes, redundant cesium and rubidium 
fointains, set of active hydrogen masers, with everything in tight 
temperature, humidity and pressure control, UPS and diesel-engines, 
GPS/GLONASS/GALILEO receiver on temperature-stabilized piller and 
antenna, do TWSTFT to major labs... since money is no issue, right?


The main problem with cesium tubes as I recall it is really the ionizer 
in the mass-spectrometer being poluted with cesium, this then creates 
bad S/N before running out of cesium in the oven.


Yes, I agree it would be a great clock to have, but practical limits in 
cost is a challenge for most, so it would be interesting to look at it 
and ask how cheap it could be done.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 11/01/2014 03:21 PM, paul swed wrote:

Magnus,
But for a time-nut how can price even enter into the conversation? Plus it
only draws 10s of watts. A green super duper clock. Other comment I read is
that there is no part that will wear out. Granted I suspect over many years
something happens, but its not the typical CS depletion. I might speculate
the glass windows fog or something or on earth the evacuated chamber
ultimately leaks or the metal in the vacuum release stuff.
No idea but pretty sure I won't be putting a watch on ebay any time soon.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 6:42 AM, Magnus Danielson 
wrote:



Hi Bob,

The traditional Hg ion clock with it's 40,5 GHz frequency is doable, but
it would be interesting if it could be commercialized at a (time-nuts)
friendly price.

The modern optical clock got much easier to work with when the frequency
comb was invented. The frequency comb and stable lasers is now
commercialized, but not cheap, not cheap at all.

Cheers,
Magnus


On 11/01/2014 02:27 AM, Bob Camp wrote:


Hi

Trapped ion clocks have been the “obvious successor” to a Cs tube for at
least 30 years. There is a *lot* of very fancy work involved in getting
from 10 MHz up to a very specific light wavelength with low ADEV and good
phase noise…..

Rocket science indeed. Time Nuts rocket science, but tough to do none the
less.

Bob

  On Oct 31, 2014, at 8:09 PM, paul swed  wrote:


Humor aside. I did dig deeper. It seems that this technology could be
commercialized in larger volumes and might land in the same cost as a
good
CS does today. Technically it looks reasonable.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 1:45 PM, paul swed  wrote:

  Jim

I am sorry to say thats the wrong clock picture.
That picture is of 2 glass coffee tables and a toaster in between.
I see you can order that art om ebay. Item number 142657nottoday3245
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 1:36 PM, Jim Lux  wrote:

  OK, I know you all want to go get one...


http://discoverjpl.jpl.nasa.gov/posts/520

It's Bob Tjoelker in front of the Deep Space Atomic Clock (DSAC) being
tested for magnetic field sensitivity.  It's a trapped ion clock, 1
liter/1
kg, orders and orders of magnitude better than a USO in performance.

(if it's in the building I think it's in, the rebar is made of
non-magnetic stainless steel)
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.




  ___

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

  ___

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

[time-nuts] BBC TV program "Click" has material about GPS jamming and e Loran

"Click" is a short TV program produced by the BBC about tech related things.

Anyway, the issue I see today (1/11/2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04p21jv

had a bit about GPS failure, GPS jamming, and use of eLORAN as a backup.


*Hopefully* you can see it on the BBC iPlayer if interested, although
I am not sure if those outside the UK can see it - you might need to
use a proxy server in the UK, since I have no idea if they block
access based on IP.

Also more on the BBC in the last 24 hours or so about this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29758872


Dr. David Kirkby Ph.D CEng MIET
Kirkby Microwave Ltd
Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Essex, CM3 6DT, UK.
Registered in England and Wales, company number 08914892.
http://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/
Tel: 07910 441670 / +44 7910 441670 (0900 to 2100 GMT only please)
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Mercury Ion Clock

Magnus,
But for a time-nut how can price even enter into the conversation? Plus it
only draws 10s of watts. A green super duper clock. Other comment I read is
that there is no part that will wear out. Granted I suspect over many years
something happens, but its not the typical CS depletion. I might speculate
the glass windows fog or something or on earth the evacuated chamber
ultimately leaks or the metal in the vacuum release stuff.
No idea but pretty sure I won't be putting a watch on ebay any time soon.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 6:42 AM, Magnus Danielson  wrote:

> Hi Bob,
>
> The traditional Hg ion clock with it's 40,5 GHz frequency is doable, but
> it would be interesting if it could be commercialized at a (time-nuts)
> friendly price.
>
> The modern optical clock got much easier to work with when the frequency
> comb was invented. The frequency comb and stable lasers is now
> commercialized, but not cheap, not cheap at all.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
>
> On 11/01/2014 02:27 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> Trapped ion clocks have been the “obvious successor” to a Cs tube for at
>> least 30 years. There is a *lot* of very fancy work involved in getting
>> from 10 MHz up to a very specific light wavelength with low ADEV and good
>> phase noise…..
>>
>> Rocket science indeed. Time Nuts rocket science, but tough to do none the
>> less.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>  On Oct 31, 2014, at 8:09 PM, paul swed  wrote:
>>>
>>> Humor aside. I did dig deeper. It seems that this technology could be
>>> commercialized in larger volumes and might land in the same cost as a
>>> good
>>> CS does today. Technically it looks reasonable.
>>> Regards
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 1:45 PM, paul swed  wrote:
>>>
>>>  Jim
 I am sorry to say thats the wrong clock picture.
 That picture is of 2 glass coffee tables and a toaster in between.
 I see you can order that art om ebay. Item number 142657nottoday3245
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL

 On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 1:36 PM, Jim Lux  wrote:

  OK, I know you all want to go get one...
>
> http://discoverjpl.jpl.nasa.gov/posts/520
>
> It's Bob Tjoelker in front of the Deep Space Atomic Clock (DSAC) being
> tested for magnetic field sensitivity.  It's a trapped ion clock, 1
> liter/1
> kg, orders and orders of magnitude better than a USO in performance.
>
> (if it's in the building I think it's in, the rebar is made of
> non-magnetic stainless steel)
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>

  ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>  ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV for a beginner

2014-11-01 Thread Anders Wallin

what you want to measure is a time-series of either frequency data or phase
data.
the simplest possible case for a beginner would be to have two clocks with
1-PPS (one pulse per second) outputs, and connect one clock to the
start-input and the other to the stop-input of a time-interval counter. If
you measure phase, keep the time-interval number to a 5...6 digit number
and you don't have to worry too much about the internal time-base of the
counter.

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 3:29 PM, Anthony Roby  wrote:

> I've been reading a lot about ADEV and following the threads on the list,
> particularly Karen's in-flight thread. What I haven't come across is a
> simple explanation of the basic setup required to go about collecting the
> data.  John Miles referenced this page http://www.ke5fx.com/tpll.htm, and
> the simple setup at the bottom of the page looks like a reasonable place to
> start.  Seems that I'd need to acquire a phase detector and build or buy
> some filters and the amp.  I can probably figure that out, but how do I get
> the data into a PC?  Is there a basic hardware and software setup that
> someone could point me to or recommend?
>
> Thanks
>
> Anthony
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV for a beginner

2014-11-01 Thread Azelio Boriani

Usually "phase detectors" (we prefer to call them Time Interval
Analysers) have data interfaces (RS232, GPIB, LAN). If you build your
own then the interface is up to you: usually an RS232 is the best
choice. The software to use: take a look at the Miles' TimeLab
 or
. Of course, in case of the GPIB, you
also will need an adapter: GPIB/USB or GPIB/LAN but the less expensive
GPIB/RS232 maybe a good choice.

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Anthony Roby  wrote:
> I've been reading a lot about ADEV and following the threads on the list, 
> particularly Karen's in-flight thread. What I haven't come across is a simple 
> explanation of the basic setup required to go about collecting the data.  
> John Miles referenced this page http://www.ke5fx.com/tpll.htm, and the simple 
> setup at the bottom of the page looks like a reasonable place to start.  
> Seems that I'd need to acquire a phase detector and build or buy some filters 
> and the amp.  I can probably figure that out, but how do I get the data into 
> a PC?  Is there a basic hardware and software setup that someone could point 
> me to or recommend?
>
> Thanks
>
> Anthony
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] 1903 Railroad self-Winding / Self-setting Clock

Bill I responded to Mike there seems to be a number of threads running on
this.
So in fact you do have the telegraph coil in the clock. Makes sense to me.
Thats why the 100 V they needed to drive 10-20 ma through the coil over
distance and had to account for line loss.
The boook you mention. Online?
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 8:00 AM, Bill Riches  wrote:

> I have the wall mounted version. I believe that the hour adjust solenoid
> took 100 volts or so.  I will check my manual on the clock.  At a minute
> before the top of the hour until a minute after the hour all traffic would
> stop on the WU lines and at the top of the hour a 100 v dc pulse came over
> the lines to reset the time.  I believe it was in the 30s when WU decided
> they did not want to be in the time business and discontinued the service
> and said everyone could keep their clocks.  I can imagine the next day
> clocks going home with office workers.  WU charged a buck a month for the
> clock, service, and batteries.  Many large offices had hundreds of these
> clocks.
>
> The book "American Clocks -Volume 2" by Tran Duyly has everything you ever
> wanted to know about self winding clocks.
>
> 73,
>
> Bill, WA2DVU
> Cape May
>
>
>
> ---
> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
> protection is active.
> http://www.avast.com
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] 1903 Self-setting / self-winding clock

Mike
I can't speak to the pendulum swing. I had seen clocks that did indeed have
some form of mechanical lockout like you mention.
So yes you are on target. Now we get to a bit of nitty gritty. When does
the pulse arrive I suspect at 59:59. The goal is that the clock rolls up to
0 and is released by the pulse perhaps.
So I mentioned that the pulse would be a higher voltage and 10-20 ma pulse.
Thats telegraph behavior and if the telegraph coils not in the clock then
as you say you are dealing with a 3V at some current pulse.
One suggestion was a relay. Absolutely will work also solidstate relays
they are cheap today and easily driven from a micro or traditional logic.
I also suggested and agreed just buy a $21 maybe gps module as the source.
They are really good cheap and very accurate.

OK how about those pictures you mentioned? :-)
Now as the saying goes "Just do it".
Regards
Paul

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:06 AM, Mike Baker  wrote:

> Time-Nutters--
>
> This particular 1903 Railroad self-setting/winding
> pendulum regulated clock needed only an hourly
> signal from a Western Union telegraph line to
> provide momentary closure of a relay contact.
> This supplied +3 VDC to rewind the spring and also
> reset the sweep seconds hand on the hour, every hour.
>
> From what I have learned about this, the resetting of
> the sweep seconds hand is mechanically coordinated
> to occur when the pendulum is at either end of its
> swing.  It appears that is no way (that I know of) to
> guarantee that the "telegraphed" reset pulse would
> coincide with either end of the pendulum's travel.
>
> Apparently, the resetting of the sweep seconds hand
> will only occur within the time frame of any single
> pendulum swing.  I suppose this means that the clock
> might be in error by as much as nearly one swing of
> the pendulum because it has to reach the end of its
> swing before the second hand is reset.
>
> Just guessing here, but I am thinking that all this
> clock needs is a 1-second long closure of a relay
> contact on the hour, every hour.   I don't think
> that leap-seconds are an issue here as the clock
> can be manually adjusted for that whenever a leap
> second occurs.  So-- it comes back to counting
> 3600 one-second pulses from a GPS clock...?  Or
> am I missing something here...?
>
> Mike Baker
> 
>
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] 1903 Railroad self-Winding / Self-setting Clock

It certainly depends on your comfort with any particular technology.
Be it discrete ICs or microprocessors what you ask for is indeed trivial to
do.
The hardest part may be building the pulse driver and thats not really hard.
The telegraphs should have been a higher voltage to drive a 10-20 ma
current across the coil.
Leap second do not play into the operation as in 1900 there were not any.
Humor aside
Since the clock recals every hour (I suspect it runs slightly slow so that
the hand advances to 0) Then a leap second washes out 1 hour after it
happens.
I would just grab one of the rediculously cheap neo GPS modules and an
atmel tiny chip micro. But thats me.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 1:49 AM, Hal Murray  wrote:

>
> We had something like that in school when I was a kid.  (many years ago)
>
> I remember occasional click-click-click... as it got reset.
>
>
> mp...@clanbaker.org said:
> > I am wondering what the easiest approach to this might be?I suppose I
> > could take the 1-sec pulses from a GPSDO (Trimble Thunderbolt ?) and
> count
> > 3600 of them to generate a momentary reset 3VDC signal.   In any event, I
> > thought I would pass this by the Time-Nuts gang to see if any feedback is
> > available as to what the least complicated (simplest) way might be to
> > accomplish this.
>
> Counting to 3600 won't work with leap seconds.  :)
>
> I don't know the details of how a pulse sets the clock hands.  I assume it
> can't set the time to a fraction of a pendulum swing so I don't see much
> use
> for something fancy like a GPSDO.  But this is time-nuts, so anything is
> possible.
>
> I'd probably split the project into two parts.  One is to keep good time
> on a
> computer, say something like a Raspberry Pi.  You can use the net, or a low
> cost GPS unit, or something fancy like a GPSDO.
>
> The second part is how and when to generate the pulse.  You can use GPIO
> pins, or modem control signals.
>
> You could use an old PC, but the payback due to reduced power will pay for
> a
> Raspberry Pi in a year or two depending on your power rates and how much
> power your old PC burns.
>
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system

For those who missed it, Arthur's post is at 
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2010-June/047825.html and the photo is 
at 
http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1photo1_zps87c505ca.jpg

Anthony




-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Arthur Dent
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:20 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, 
Z3812A GPSDO system

Bob Stewart bob at evoria.net
 ?? ? I have both of my units sitting on the bench. I found that I needed to 
connect them together to get the REF1 unit to come out of standby ? . ??

Bob Camp kb8tq at n1k.org
 ??I suspect that somebody will have to figure out what the 15 pin connector / 
jumper is doing. On previous RFTG units there was a way to re-wire the 
crossover interface to fake out the slave detect process. That would let you 
run a single GPS equipped box and have it behave correctly. Without the fake 
wires trick none of them played nice without the slave being present ? . ??
++
Reposting what I had posted over a week ago, in case you missed it ? .

Arthur Dent golgarfrincham at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 13:59:48 EDT 2014  ?? ? Way 
back on Fri Jun 11 16:48:43 UTC 2010 I posted about using one of these units I 
had modified but at the time there wasn't a single person who was interested. I 
have been using the RFTG-u REF1 since then and it is a nice unit. The 
modifications I added (including a power supply -see photo) allows the lights 
to cycle through their normal sequence on warm-up and the second unit isn't 
needed at all ? . ??

-Arthur
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

[time-nuts] Measuring ADEV for a beginner

I've been reading a lot about ADEV and following the threads on the list, 
particularly Karen's in-flight thread. What I haven't come across is a simple 
explanation of the basic setup required to go about collecting the data.  John 
Miles referenced this page http://www.ke5fx.com/tpll.htm, and the simple setup 
at the bottom of the page looks like a reasonable place to start.  Seems that 
I'd need to acquire a phase detector and build or buy some filters and the amp. 
 I can probably figure that out, but how do I get the data into a PC?  Is there 
a basic hardware and software setup that someone could point me to or recommend?

Thanks

Anthony
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] 1903 Railroad self-Winding / Self-setting Clock

2014-11-01 Thread Bill Riches

I have the wall mounted version. I believe that the hour adjust solenoid
took 100 volts or so.  I will check my manual on the clock.  At a minute
before the top of the hour until a minute after the hour all traffic would
stop on the WU lines and at the top of the hour a 100 v dc pulse came over
the lines to reset the time.  I believe it was in the 30s when WU decided
they did not want to be in the time business and discontinued the service
and said everyone could keep their clocks.  I can imagine the next day
clocks going home with office workers.  WU charged a buck a month for the
clock, service, and batteries.  Many large offices had hundreds of these
clocks.

The book "American Clocks -Volume 2" by Tran Duyly has everything you ever
wanted to know about self winding clocks.

73,

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape May



---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection 
is active.
http://www.avast.com

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Setting Clocks in the Mid 1800's

I would be quite interested in reading your presentation also.
Thank you
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 3:14 AM, Sanjeev Gupta  wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Larry McDavid 
> wrote:
>
> > I gave a presentation on the Dent Dipleidoscope at the Harvard conference
> > of the North American Sundial Society in 2013. If anyone is interested, I
> > can provide a pdf of that presentation. The presentation includes
> history,
> > detailed explanation of operation and lots of pictures of the
> construction
> > of the dipleidoscope.
>
>
> (specifically on-list)
>
> Larry, I, for one, would appreciate your presentation.
>
> --
> Sanjeev Gupta
> +65 98551208 http://www.linkedin.com/in/ghane
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] 1903 Railroad self-Winding / Self-setting Clock (Bob Camp)

2014-11-01 Thread Mitchell Janoff

I have Arduino and Parallax BS2 programs that check the time from a Motorola 
GPS card (UT) and then send out a pulse on an electronic relay once an hour. 
The pulse starts at 59:57 past the hour and ends at 59:59. The solenoid 
releases on each clock pretty close to the hour, and the clocks remain in synch 
indefinitely. The time is also displayed on a 2 line LCD in the GPS interface 
module.  I've had this working in my house for years now, starting with WWV, 
WWVB,  and now GPS. I'm happy to send the program to anyone interested. I've 
also used to drive slave clocks with a 1PPM pulse. Currently I have over 25 
Self Winding clocks all synchronized. I have them wired serially in groups of 4 
and send out 12v to each group. Works great.  

Mitch.

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of 
time-nuts-requ...@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 5:51 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 2

Send time-nuts mailing list submissions to
time-nuts@febo.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
time-nuts-requ...@febo.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
time-nuts-ow...@febo.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: 
Contents of time-nuts digest..."

Today's Topics:

   1. HP Z3816A GPS (w...@aol.com)
   2. Re: 10MHz Rubidium reference source for frequency counter
  (John Miles)
   3. Re: Setting Clocks in the Mid 1800's (Sanjeev Gupta)
   4. Re: Mercury Ion Clock (Poul-Henning Kamp)
   5. Selling time to the railroad (Howard Davidson)
   6. Re: Mercury Ion Clock (Magnus Danielson)
   7. Re: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A,
  Z3812A GPSDO system (Mike Seguin)
   8. Re: 1903 Railroad self-Winding / Self-setting Clock (Bob Camp)

--

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2014 02:15:52 -0400
From: w...@aol.com
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] HP Z3816A GPS
Message-ID: <658d6.1dd91474.4185d...@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Hello All...

My HP Z3816A GPS box is in need of some TLC.

Is there anyone on the list who works on these  units?

TIA

73
Don
W4WJ

--

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2014 00:01:19 -0700
From: "John Miles" 
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz Rubidium reference source for frequency
counter
Message-ID: <04e801cff5a1$a4d81c80$ee885580$@miles.io>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="utf-8"

> >It seems to me that it's just a case of expecting too much from a counter.
> 
> Possibly, but a well-tuned 5370B can get to the low e-12's at 1-10 
> seconds.

You can get down there with TI averaging, but the data you get is not ideal 
since the averaging process smooths out the very instabilities you're trying to 
characterize. (See Tom's page at http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/adev-avg/ for 
a good intuitive explanation.)

> Yes, using TI mode is essential for getting down to the counter's 
> limits.  Was Karen using frequency mode?  I wasn't paying attention to 
> that end of things.

I'm not sure, but that's where most people start out.  Going to TI mode may 
improve things a bit at the cost of a more complex, error-prone measurement 
process, but it still isn't going to measure a Morion at t=1s.

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC

--

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2014 15:14:51 +0800
From: Sanjeev Gupta 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Setting Clocks in the Mid 1800's
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Larry McDavid  wrote:

> I gave a presentation on the Dent Dipleidoscope at the Harvard 
> conference of the North American Sundial Society in 2013. If anyone is 
> interested, I can provide a pdf of that presentation. The presentation 
> includes history, detailed explanation of operation and lots of 
> pictures of the construction of the dipleidoscope.

(specifically on-list)

Larry, I, for one, would appreciate your presentation.

--
Sanjeev Gupta
+65 98551208 http://www.linkedin.com/in/ghane

--

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2014 07:21:51 +
From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
,  Brooke Clarke 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Mercury Ion Clock
Message-ID: <2290.1414826...@critter.freebsd.dk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

In message <54544287.3000...@pacific.net>, Brooke Clarke writes:
>Hi Bob:
>
>I suspect that inside a screen room like that one, where I'm
>guessing the walls are iron/steel, there's not much of the
>

Re: [time-nuts] 1903 Self-setting / self-winding clock

2014-11-01 Thread Mike Baker


Time-Nutters--

This particular 1903 Railroad self-setting/winding
pendulum regulated clock needed only an hourly
signal from a Western Union telegraph line to
provide momentary closure of a relay contact.
This supplied +3 VDC to rewind the spring and also
reset the sweep seconds hand on the hour, every hour.

From what I have learned about this, the resetting of
the sweep seconds hand is mechanically coordinated
to occur when the pendulum is at either end of its
swing.  It appears that is no way (that I know of) to
guarantee that the "telegraphed" reset pulse would
coincide with either end of the pendulum's travel.

Apparently, the resetting of the sweep seconds hand
will only occur within the time frame of any single
pendulum swing.  I suppose this means that the clock
might be in error by as much as nearly one swing of
the pendulum because it has to reach the end of its
swing before the second hand is reset.

Just guessing here, but I am thinking that all this
clock needs is a 1-second long closure of a relay
contact on the hour, every hour.   I don't think
that leap-seconds are an issue here as the clock
can be manually adjusted for that whenever a leap
second occurs.  So-- it comes back to counting
3600 one-second pulses from a GPS clock...?  Or
am I missing something here...?

Mike Baker




___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system

Hi

Quick question - What about the other pins? Do they hook up in the same manner? 
If so, what happens to the odd pin?

Bob

> On Oct 31, 2014, at 10:41 PM, Tom Miller  wrote:
> 
> Task 1 complete.
> 
> Pin-1  ->  Pin-15
> Pin-2  ->  Pin- 14
> Pin-3  ->  Pin- 13
> ...
> ...
> Pin-14 ->  Pin- 2
> Pin-15  -> Pin-1
> 
> Shell -> Shell
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Bob Camp" 
> To: ; "Discussion of precise time and frequency 
> measurement" 
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 8:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, 
> Z3810A,Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system
> 
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> I suspect that somebody will have to figure out what the 15 pin connector / 
>> jumper is doing. On previous RFTG units there was a way to re-wire the 
>> crossover interface to fake out the slave detect process. That would let you 
>> run a single GPS equipped box and have it behave correctly. Without the fake 
>> wires trick none of them played nice without the slave being present.
>> 
>> Yes that seems like it violates the spirit of redundancy. No I didn’t design 
>> it. Yes the guy who did spec it to work that way probably knew a whole lot 
>> more about exactly what they were after in the design.
>> 
>> I suppose the first task would be to figure out if the jumper cable is a 
>> straight through or not….
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system

Hi

Well Q = CV. If delta V = 1 and C = 0.022 then Q = 0.022. That’s 22 ma for 1 
second or 22 ua for 1,000 seconds. At 5 ua you would get to about an hour. If 
the delta V is 2X that, the times would all double. If the current is 10X lower 
than the spec (it might be …) then you could get out to around a day.

Bob



> On Nov 1, 2014, at 12:38 AM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob et al,
> I don't understand the direction this question about the supercap has taken.  
> It's connected to pin 1 of the GPS receiver.  It looks to be a UT+, so that's 
> the battery backup power.  According to my UT+ manual the current draw on 
> this pin is between 5uA (at 2.5V) and 100uA (at 5V)?  How many hours will a 
> .022F supercap keep at least 2.5V at that sort of discharge rate?  Unless the 
> cap has gone bad, it seems more likely that Bob's comment about it doing a 
> fast survey and then doing a slower one in the background probably has merit. 
>  In fact, my unit goes through its survey mode pretty quickly on power up.  
> So do those current/voltage figures imply several hours on the cap?
> 
> Bob
> From: Bob Camp 
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement  
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, 
> Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system
> 
> Hi
> 
> I sort of doubt that a GPS aux supply is quite that low current. I have seen 
> some RTC’s that won’t last a month on a coin cell. My recollection is that 
> the Oncore backup is closer to that category than the “many years on a cap” 
> group.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
>> On Oct 31, 2014, at 9:26 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Bob:
>> 
>> When HP came out with the 300 series Rocky Mountain Basic computers they 
>> were fitted with a super cap to power the RTC.
>> I will keep time for some months.
>> http://www.prc68.com/I/HPIB.shtml#300
>> 
>> Mail_Attachment --
>> Have Fun,
>> 
>> Brooke Clarke
>> http://www.PRC68.com
>> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
>> http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
>> Bob Camp wrote:
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> The ultra cap is a pretty small one (physical small). You might be able to 
>>> find a larger (more farads) one that would fit in the same space. It’s not 
>>> going to help for a hours and hours sort of outage. It might get you from 
>>> dying in 15 minutes to dying in a half hour.
>>> 
>>> Bob
> 
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system

Hi

> On Oct 31, 2014, at 10:20 PM, Arthur Dent  wrote:
> 
> Bob Stewart bob at evoria.net
> “…I have both of my units sitting on the bench. I found that I needed to
> connect them together to get the REF1 unit to come out of standby….”
> 
> Bob Camp kb8tq at n1k.org
> “I suspect that somebody will have to figure out what the 15 pin
> connector / jumper is doing. On previous RFTG units there was a
> way to re-wire the crossover interface to fake out the slave detect
> process. That would let you run a single GPS equipped box and have
> it behave correctly. Without the fake wires trick none of them
> played nice without the slave being present….”
> ++
> Reposting what I had posted over a week ago, in case you missed it….
> 
> Arthur Dent golgarfrincham at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 13:59:48 EDT 2014
> “…Way back on Fri Jun 11 16:48:43 UTC 2010 I posted about using one of
> these units I had modified but at the time there wasn't a single person
> who was interested. I have been using the RFTG-u REF1 since then and
> it is a nice unit. The modifications I added (including a power supply
> -see photo)

It’s the “see photo” part that I was having a hard time with. For what ever 
reason, the link in your original post did not work for me.

Bob

> allows the lights to cycle through their normal sequence
> on warm-up and the second unit isn't needed at all….”
> 
> -Arthur
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] 1903 Railroad self-Winding / Self-setting Clock

Hi

The “easy way” is probably to take a GPS module and get the time out of that. 
There’s not a big need for a GPSDO in this case. The modules cost < $20 and run 
on very little power. 

Mate the module up with your processor du-jour and let it figure out when the 
top of the hour is. There are a *bunch* of < $15 boards out there. No need for 
anything fancy. The advantage of having a bit of code is that it can *know* 
when you are at 12:00:00 rather than having to count 3600 seconds past the last 
reset. 

I would use a … relay… to drive the clock. That way everything is isolated from 
everything else. You also get a nice real sounding click when it fires. 

Total cost of everything < $50. Total time to get it all done…..

I would take the clock to a “clock guy” to make sure it’s up to running this 
way. It would be a shame to fire things up and find that there is a problem 
with the clock. Even worse if you break something in the clock. 

—

Totally off topic … we had a similar system in 8th grade. For some odd reason 
the reset didn’t work quite right. The clock tended to go nuts when the reset 
signal came through. Very distracting …. wonder why it did that ….

Bob

> On Oct 31, 2014, at 9:29 PM, Mike Baker  wrote:
> 
> Hello, Time-Nutters--
> 
> A friend has a vintage oak-cabinet pendulum movement
> clock made by The Self Winding Clock Company some time
> around 1903.  The company was formed in 1886.  By the
> early 1900's era, this clock was known for its relative
> accuracy.  These clocks were pendulum controlled and
> powered by a rather small and frequently reset
> mainspring that was wound hourly by a set of 1.5 VDC
> dry-cell batteries.  In 1890 (?) the Naval Observatory agreed
> to telegraph standard railway time.Western Union,
> which also owned the Self-Winding Clock Company, sold
> these clocks to the railroads and sent the hourly time
> coordinating signals around the country by telegraph.
> My friend has one of the railroad clocks that has the
> Western Union Telegraph hourly resetting option.
> 
> My friend thought it would be an interesting juxtaposition
> of technology from two different eras by creating the
> momentary 3-volt resetting pulse every hour from a
> GPS disciplined oscillator / clock pulse.
> 
> I am wondering what the easiest approach to this might
> be?I suppose I could take the 1-sec pulses from a
> GPSDO (Trimble Thunderbolt ?) and count 3600 of them
> to generate a momentary reset 3VDC signal.   In any event,
> I thought I would pass this by the Time-Nuts gang to see
> if any feedback is available as to what the least complicated
> (simplest) way might be to accomplish this.
> 
> Mike Baker
> ***
> 
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system

2014-11-01 Thread Mike Seguin


Hi Arthur,

Found your original picture/post. TNX!

http://s906.photobucket.com/user/rjb1998/media/RFTG-uREF1photo1_zps87c505ca.jpg.html

Would you share what you did for a 5 MHz buffer?

Mike

On 10/31/2014 10:20 PM, Arthur Dent wrote:

Bob Stewart bob at evoria.net
“…I have both of my units sitting on the bench. I found that I needed to
connect them together to get the REF1 unit to come out of standby….”

Bob Camp kb8tq at n1k.org
“I suspect that somebody will have to figure out what the 15 pin
connector / jumper is doing. On previous RFTG units there was a
way to re-wire the crossover interface to fake out the slave detect
process. That would let you run a single GPS equipped box and have
it behave correctly. Without the fake wires trick none of them
played nice without the slave being present….”
++
Reposting what I had posted over a week ago, in case you missed it….

Arthur Dent golgarfrincham at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 13:59:48 EDT 2014
“…Way back on Fri Jun 11 16:48:43 UTC 2010 I posted about using one of
these units I had modified but at the time there wasn't a single person
who was interested. I have been using the RFTG-u REF1 since then and
it is a nice unit. The modifications I added (including a power supply
-see photo) allows the lights to cycle through their normal sequence
on warm-up and the second unit isn't needed at all….”

-Arthur
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



--

73,
Mike, N1JEZ
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Mercury Ion Clock


Hi Bob,

The traditional Hg ion clock with it's 40,5 GHz frequency is doable, but 
it would be interesting if it could be commercialized at a (time-nuts) 
friendly price.


The modern optical clock got much easier to work with when the frequency 
comb was invented. The frequency comb and stable lasers is now 
commercialized, but not cheap, not cheap at all.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 11/01/2014 02:27 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Trapped ion clocks have been the “obvious successor” to a Cs tube for at least 
30 years. There is a *lot* of very fancy work involved in getting from 10 MHz 
up to a very specific light wavelength with low ADEV and good phase noise…..

Rocket science indeed. Time Nuts rocket science, but tough to do none the less.

Bob


On Oct 31, 2014, at 8:09 PM, paul swed  wrote:

Humor aside. I did dig deeper. It seems that this technology could be
commercialized in larger volumes and might land in the same cost as a good
CS does today. Technically it looks reasonable.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 1:45 PM, paul swed  wrote:


Jim
I am sorry to say thats the wrong clock picture.
That picture is of 2 glass coffee tables and a toaster in between.
I see you can order that art om ebay. Item number 142657nottoday3245
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 1:36 PM, Jim Lux  wrote:


OK, I know you all want to go get one...

http://discoverjpl.jpl.nasa.gov/posts/520

It's Bob Tjoelker in front of the Deep Space Atomic Clock (DSAC) being
tested for magnetic field sensitivity.  It's a trapped ion clock, 1 liter/1
kg, orders and orders of magnitude better than a USO in performance.

(if it's in the building I think it's in, the rebar is made of
non-magnetic stainless steel)
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.





___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

[time-nuts] Selling time to the railroad

2014-11-01 Thread Howard Davidson

The physics department at the little Liberal Arts college  I went to in 
Iowa, Grinnell college, used to sell time to the Rock Island Railroad. 
We had two excellent pendulum clocks that back when this was in action, 
were synchronized to zenith crossings of particular stars. This was a 
manual operation performed by undergraduates who were paid to be up at 
weird hours of the night. The time ticks from the clocks were 
transmitted to the Rock Island station in town electrically. I presume 
they distributed it by telegraph.


hld

--
Howard L. Davidson
hl...@att.net

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Mercury Ion Clock

2014-11-01 Thread Poul-Henning Kamp


In message <54544287.3000...@pacific.net>, Brooke Clarke writes:
>Hi Bob:
>
>I suspect that inside a screen room like that one, where I'm
>guessing the walls are iron/steel, there's not much of the
>Earth's mag field left to null.

That would be very counter productive, because you would invariably
get a very complex mag field which owuld be much harder to cancel out.


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Setting Clocks in the Mid 1800's

2014-11-01 Thread Sanjeev Gupta

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Larry McDavid  wrote:

> I gave a presentation on the Dent Dipleidoscope at the Harvard conference
> of the North American Sundial Society in 2013. If anyone is interested, I
> can provide a pdf of that presentation. The presentation includes history,
> detailed explanation of operation and lots of pictures of the construction
> of the dipleidoscope.


(specifically on-list)

Larry, I, for one, would appreciate your presentation.

-- 
Sanjeev Gupta
+65 98551208 http://www.linkedin.com/in/ghane
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz Rubidium reference source for frequency counter

2014-11-01 Thread John Miles

> >It seems to me that it's just a case of expecting too much from a counter.
> 
> Possibly, but a well-tuned 5370B can get to the low e-12's at 1-10
> seconds.  

You can get down there with TI averaging, but the data you get is not ideal 
since the averaging process smooths out the very instabilities you're trying to 
characterize. (See Tom's page at http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/adev-avg/ for 
a good intuitive explanation.)

> Yes, using TI mode is essential for getting down to the counter's
> limits.  Was Karen using frequency mode?  I wasn't paying attention
> to that end of things.

I'm not sure, but that's where most people start out.  Going to TI mode may 
improve things a bit at the cost of a more complex, error-prone measurement 
process, but it still isn't going to measure a Morion at t=1s.

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

[time-nuts] HP Z3816A GPS

2014-11-01 Thread Don Murray via time-nuts

Hello All...
 
My HP Z3816A GPS box is in need of some TLC.
 
Is there anyone on the list who works on these  units?
 
TIA
 
 
73
Don
W4WJ
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz Rubidium reference source for frequency counter


csteinm...@yandex.com said:
> Yes, using TI mode is essential for getting down to the counter's limits.

What's going on there?  It's just a divide, right?  Is the firmware not smart 
enough to do get enough precision?

Do all counters have that problem?


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] 1903 Railroad self-Winding / Self-setting Clock