[time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt no longer determines the correct date

[Mark Sims]

At one time one of the Chinese sellers of Tbolts was upgrading their firmware 
from 2.x to 3.0   I don't know how they did that...  perhaps they extracted a 
3.0 image via something like JTAG or pulling a chip and dumping it.

--

> Unfortunately the unit that you have does not allow for a fw update.
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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt - trouble locking with some types of antennas

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Jerry:

The Trimble is the oldest mass produced GPS receiver I know of and because the early receivers used high gain antennas 
it seems that Trimble kept that idea for the newer designs. They like about 41 dB gain between the antenna and the input 
to the receiver.

http://www.prc68.com/I/Trimpack.shtml#Ant
Newer designs probably place that gain in the front end rather than at the antenna.  But having around 20 dB of gain at 
the antenna gretly decreases the effect of feed line loss on noise figure.


--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html

 Original Message 

Due to access problems, I run my Thunderbolt with a Symmetricom 58532A
antenna placed indoor near a window facing South… can’t get much worse but
most of the time it will be locked onto 3 or 4 satellites.I recently
bought a www.leobodnar.com   GPSDO for my SDR ham
radio setup.  I was very surprised to find that this minimalist GPSDO using
a small patch antenna with internal LNA placed near my window had satellite
& PPL lock within a few seconds.  It requires 3-4 satellite locks for its
PPL.  However, when I attached the patch antenna to my Thunderbolt –
satellite signal strength were zero or minus for all satellites.  The specs
for the patch antenna are listed below.

  


I would appreciate any advice understanding this behavior.

  


Jerry NY2KW

  


Center Frequency 1575.42MHz±3 MHz

V.S.W.R 1.5:1

Band Width ±5 MHz

Impendence 50 ohm

Peak Gain >3dBic Based on 7×7cm ground plane

Gain Coverage >-4dBic at –90°<0<+90°(over 75% Volume)

Polarization RHCP

LNA/Filter

LNA Gain (Without cable) 28+/-3dB

Noise Figure 1.5dB Typ.

Filter Out Band Attenuation (f° =1575.42MHz)

7dB Min f0+/-20MHZ

20dB Min f0+/-50MHZ

30dB Min f0+/-100MHZ

V.S.W.R <2.0

DC Voltage 2.7V/3.0V/3.3V/5.0V/3.0V to 5.0V/other

DC Current 5mA /11mA/15mA Max

  

  

  


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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt no longer determines the correct date

[David C. Partridge]

> Unfortunately the unit that you have does not allow for a fw update.

Oh well it was worth asking.

Dave


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob kb8tq
Sent: 31 July 2017 17:30
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt no longer determines the correct 
date

Hi

Trimble, even on supported products, is pretty firm about a service contract 
being in place for updates.
The only exception seems to be security related patches. There have been a lot 
of examples of this over the years ….AFIK, there isn’t even a “public” firmware 
loader for the TBolt. 

Indeed, you might get lucky. 

Bob


> On Jul 31, 2017, at 5:27 AM, David C. Partridge 
>  wrote:
> 
> I emailed Trimble on the off chance they might have a firmware upgrade.  They 
> sent me an email which covered some units that rolled over in Feb. 2016 for 
> which they say they have no upgrade.
> 
> I sent them all the information on the label stuck to the outside of my TB 
> (one of the group buy set), to see if there's any hope ...
> 
> I'm not optimistic, but if you don't ask, you don't get.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark 
> Sims
> Sent: 30 July 2017 17:18
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt no longer determines the 
> correct date
> 
> That does not appear to be the case.   If it did a reset the DAC should have 
> gone to the InitV eeprom setting  of 2.800V,  but instead mine spiked to 
> 0.308V which is not close to the InitV or the last known DAC values.  
> 
> My log file shows the unit did a filter-reinit  followed two seconds later by 
> phase locking the PPS.
> 
> --
> 
>> Or maybe the TBolt reset on rollover and went back to a previously saved DAC 
>> value.
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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt - trouble locking with some types of antennas

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

> On Jul 31, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Didier Juges  wrote:
> 
> The Thunderbolt is well known for not having the best sensitivity among GPS
> receivers. It seems that timing receivers in general, particularly those of
> the same generation as the Thunderbolt are not as sensitive as navigation
> (possibly newer) GPS receivers. It may be because they are expected to run
> with amplified antennas?

The newer the receiver, the more horsepower in the silicon. In the case of GPS, 
that
gives you more correlators to do DSP. The sensitivity improvement is a direct 
result
of that. If you take a look at the guts of a TBolt, they date to the late 
1990’s. That’s 
a long time in silicon years ….

Bob


> 
> Based on the spec you wrote, it looks like your antenna has no gain, so
> definitely I would expect less than good performance.
> 
> My 3 Thunderbolts have been running with inside antennas (2 pucks and one
> Trimble Bullet) but my ham shack is upstairs and other than the ceiling and
> the shingle roof, there are no other obstructions and they are doing OK not
> great (all 3 go on holdover somewhat regularly). I am now running one
> downstairs (while I work on the new software for the TB Monitor) with 50
> feet of RG-58 going to a HP 58532A antenna somewhat in the clear but only 8
> feet above ground with significant obstructions in pretty much all
> directions due to the low height and the Thunderbolt is happy as a clam in
> spite of the significant losses in the cable. The HP antenna works much
> better than the Trimble Bullet antenna.
> 
> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Jerry  wrote:
> 
>> Due to access problems, I run my Thunderbolt with a Symmetricom 58532A
>> antenna placed indoor near a window facing South… can’t get much worse but
>> most of the time it will be locked onto 3 or 4 satellites.I recently
>> bought a www.leobodnar.com   GPSDO for my SDR
>> ham
>> radio setup.  I was very surprised to find that this minimalist GPSDO using
>> a small patch antenna with internal LNA placed near my window had satellite
>> & PPL lock within a few seconds.  It requires 3-4 satellite locks for its
>> PPL.  However, when I attached the patch antenna to my Thunderbolt –
>> satellite signal strength were zero or minus for all satellites.  The specs
>> for the patch antenna are listed below.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I would appreciate any advice understanding this behavior.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Jerry NY2KW
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Center Frequency 1575.42MHz±3 MHz
>> 
>> V.S.W.R 1.5:1
>> 
>> Band Width ±5 MHz
>> 
>> Impendence 50 ohm
>> 
>> Peak Gain >3dBic Based on 7×7cm ground plane
>> 
>> Gain Coverage >-4dBic at –90°<0<+90°(over 75% Volume)
>> 
>> Polarization RHCP
>> 
>> LNA/Filter
>> 
>> LNA Gain (Without cable) 28+/-3dB
>> 
>> Noise Figure 1.5dB Typ.
>> 
>> Filter Out Band Attenuation (f° =1575.42MHz)
>> 
>> 7dB Min f0+/-20MHZ
>> 
>> 20dB Min f0+/-50MHZ
>> 
>> 30dB Min f0+/-100MHZ
>> 
>> V.S.W.R <2.0
>> 
>> DC Voltage 2.7V/3.0V/3.3V/5.0V/3.0V to 5.0V/other
>> 
>> DC Current 5mA /11mA/15mA Max
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
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[time-nuts] Looking for OSA 3210 information

[Skip Withrow]

Hello time-nuts,

I'm looking for a User Manual or Service Manual for the Oscilloquartz OSA
3210 cesium standard.  So far my search has turned up nothing.  TVB as a
User Manual for the OSA3200, which I assume is an earlier (though similar
model).

The cesium unit is an OSA 3000 and any documentation on it would be a
start.  The unit that I have has an 8612 oscillator in it.

Electronic copies would be great, but I'm always willing to pay
shipping/copy costs for hardcopy.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Skip Withrow


Virus-free.
www.avast.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt - trouble locking with some types of antennas

[Didier Juges]

The Thunderbolt is well known for not having the best sensitivity among GPS
receivers. It seems that timing receivers in general, particularly those of
the same generation as the Thunderbolt are not as sensitive as navigation
(possibly newer) GPS receivers. It may be because they are expected to run
with amplified antennas?

Based on the spec you wrote, it looks like your antenna has no gain, so
definitely I would expect less than good performance.

My 3 Thunderbolts have been running with inside antennas (2 pucks and one
Trimble Bullet) but my ham shack is upstairs and other than the ceiling and
the shingle roof, there are no other obstructions and they are doing OK not
great (all 3 go on holdover somewhat regularly). I am now running one
downstairs (while I work on the new software for the TB Monitor) with 50
feet of RG-58 going to a HP 58532A antenna somewhat in the clear but only 8
feet above ground with significant obstructions in pretty much all
directions due to the low height and the Thunderbolt is happy as a clam in
spite of the significant losses in the cable. The HP antenna works much
better than the Trimble Bullet antenna.

On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Jerry  wrote:

> Due to access problems, I run my Thunderbolt with a Symmetricom 58532A
> antenna placed indoor near a window facing South… can’t get much worse but
> most of the time it will be locked onto 3 or 4 satellites.I recently
> bought a www.leobodnar.com   GPSDO for my SDR
> ham
> radio setup.  I was very surprised to find that this minimalist GPSDO using
> a small patch antenna with internal LNA placed near my window had satellite
> & PPL lock within a few seconds.  It requires 3-4 satellite locks for its
> PPL.  However, when I attached the patch antenna to my Thunderbolt –
> satellite signal strength were zero or minus for all satellites.  The specs
> for the patch antenna are listed below.
>
>
>
> I would appreciate any advice understanding this behavior.
>
>
>
> Jerry NY2KW
>
>
>
> Center Frequency 1575.42MHz±3 MHz
>
> V.S.W.R 1.5:1
>
> Band Width ±5 MHz
>
> Impendence 50 ohm
>
> Peak Gain >3dBic Based on 7×7cm ground plane
>
> Gain Coverage >-4dBic at –90°<0<+90°(over 75% Volume)
>
> Polarization RHCP
>
> LNA/Filter
>
> LNA Gain (Without cable) 28+/-3dB
>
> Noise Figure 1.5dB Typ.
>
> Filter Out Band Attenuation (f° =1575.42MHz)
>
> 7dB Min f0+/-20MHZ
>
> 20dB Min f0+/-50MHZ
>
> 30dB Min f0+/-100MHZ
>
> V.S.W.R <2.0
>
> DC Voltage 2.7V/3.0V/3.3V/5.0V/3.0V to 5.0V/other
>
> DC Current 5mA /11mA/15mA Max
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt - trouble locking with some types of antennas

[Arnold Tibus]

Hello Jerry,
I think the problem is not at the antenna, I consider the 58532A to be a
lot better than these smal patch antennas.
But the point is that modern receivers have a significant better sensivity!
In my opinion, indoor position of any kind of antenna is not a good
solution if you want to get
low jitter results. Indoor antennas do get mostly indirect reception via
reflections oft the
SAT-signals, so even the position indicated is not really precise.
When possible, any antenna should be positioned to get a free view to
the sky 360 deg
and at least about 20 deg in elevation.
My antenna is mounted on the top of the roof outside at the highest
point with abt.
10m coax cable down to my good old thunderbolt providing best reception
possible.

I wish you good luck for your further investigations,

73
Arnold, DK2WT

Am 31.07.2017 um 19:19 schrieb Jerry:
> Due to access problems, I run my Thunderbolt with a Symmetricom 58532A
> antenna placed indoor near a window facing South… can’t get much worse but
> most of the time it will be locked onto 3 or 4 satellites.I recently
> bought a www.leobodnar.com   GPSDO for my SDR ham
> radio setup.  I was very surprised to find that this minimalist GPSDO using
> a small patch antenna with internal LNA placed near my window had satellite
> & PPL lock within a few seconds.  It requires 3-4 satellite locks for its
> PPL.  However, when I attached the patch antenna to my Thunderbolt –
> satellite signal strength were zero or minus for all satellites.  The specs
> for the patch antenna are listed below.
>
>  
>
> I would appreciate any advice understanding this behavior.
>
>  
>
> Jerry NY2KW
>
>  
>
> Center Frequency 1575.42MHz±3 MHz
>
> V.S.W.R 1.5:1
>
> Band Width ±5 MHz
>
> Impendence 50 ohm
>
> Peak Gain >3dBic Based on 7×7cm ground plane
>
> Gain Coverage >-4dBic at –90°<0<+90°(over 75% Volume)
>
> Polarization RHCP
>
> LNA/Filter
>
> LNA Gain (Without cable) 28+/-3dB
>
> Noise Figure 1.5dB Typ.
>
> Filter Out Band Attenuation (f° =1575.42MHz)
>
> 7dB Min f0+/-20MHZ
>
> 20dB Min f0+/-50MHZ
>
> 30dB Min f0+/-100MHZ
>
> V.S.W.R <2.0
>
> DC Voltage 2.7V/3.0V/3.3V/5.0V/3.0V to 5.0V/other
>
> DC Current 5mA /11mA/15mA Max
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
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[time-nuts] Thunderbolt - trouble locking with some types of antennas

[Jerry]

Due to access problems, I run my Thunderbolt with a Symmetricom 58532A
antenna placed indoor near a window facing South… can’t get much worse but
most of the time it will be locked onto 3 or 4 satellites.I recently
bought a www.leobodnar.com   GPSDO for my SDR ham
radio setup.  I was very surprised to find that this minimalist GPSDO using
a small patch antenna with internal LNA placed near my window had satellite
& PPL lock within a few seconds.  It requires 3-4 satellite locks for its
PPL.  However, when I attached the patch antenna to my Thunderbolt –
satellite signal strength were zero or minus for all satellites.  The specs
for the patch antenna are listed below.

 

I would appreciate any advice understanding this behavior.

 

Jerry NY2KW

 

Center Frequency 1575.42MHz±3 MHz

V.S.W.R 1.5:1

Band Width ±5 MHz

Impendence 50 ohm

Peak Gain >3dBic Based on 7×7cm ground plane

Gain Coverage >-4dBic at –90°<0<+90°(over 75% Volume)

Polarization RHCP

LNA/Filter

LNA Gain (Without cable) 28+/-3dB

Noise Figure 1.5dB Typ.

Filter Out Band Attenuation (f° =1575.42MHz)

7dB Min f0+/-20MHZ

20dB Min f0+/-50MHZ

30dB Min f0+/-100MHZ

V.S.W.R <2.0

DC Voltage 2.7V/3.0V/3.3V/5.0V/3.0V to 5.0V/other

DC Current 5mA /11mA/15mA Max

 

 

 

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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt no longer determines the correct date

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Trimble, even on supported products, is pretty firm about a service contract 
being in place for updates.
The only exception seems to be security related patches. There have been a lot 
of examples of this
over the years ….AFIK, there isn’t even a “public” firmware loader for the 
TBolt. 

Indeed, you might get lucky. 

Bob


> On Jul 31, 2017, at 5:27 AM, David C. Partridge 
>  wrote:
> 
> I emailed Trimble on the off chance they might have a firmware upgrade.  They 
> sent me an email which covered some units that rolled over in Feb. 2016 for 
> which they say they have no upgrade.
> 
> I sent them all the information on the label stuck to the outside of my TB 
> (one of the group buy set), to see if there's any hope ...
> 
> I'm not optimistic, but if you don't ask, you don't get.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark Sims
> Sent: 30 July 2017 17:18
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt no longer determines the correct date
> 
> That does not appear to be the case.   If it did a reset the DAC should have 
> gone to the InitV eeprom setting  of 2.800V,  but instead mine spiked to 
> 0.308V which is not close to the InitV or the last known DAC values.  
> 
> My log file shows the unit did a filter-reinit  followed two seconds later by 
> phase locking the PPS.
> 
> --
> 
>> Or maybe the TBolt reset on rollover and went back to a previously saved DAC 
>> value.
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt no longer determines the correct date

[David C. Partridge]

I emailed Trimble on the off chance they might have a firmware upgrade.  They 
sent me an email which covered some units that rolled over in Feb. 2016 for 
which they say they have no upgrade.

I sent them all the information on the label stuck to the outside of my TB (one 
of the group buy set), to see if there's any hope ...

I'm not optimistic, but if you don't ask, you don't get.

Cheers
Dave

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark Sims
Sent: 30 July 2017 17:18
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt no longer determines the correct date

That does not appear to be the case.   If it did a reset the DAC should have 
gone to the InitV eeprom setting  of 2.800V,  but instead mine spiked to 0.308V 
which is not close to the InitV or the last known DAC values.  

My log file shows the unit did a filter-reinit  followed two seconds later by 
phase locking the PPS.

--

> Or maybe the TBolt reset on rollover and went back to a previously saved DAC 
> value.
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