[time-nuts] Lady Heather BST command line question

[Chris Wilson]

  01/04/2018 06:10

I  am struggling to make LH show the time in British Summer Time. I can
get it to show UTC, but not with the BST offfset. Could someone please
give  me  the  exact  start  up  command  line  to  add to the Windows
properties box please?

Will  it then automatically revert to GMT at the end of the BST offset?
Thanks!

-- 
   Best Regards,
   Chris Wilson.
mailto: ch...@chriswilson.tv

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Re: [time-nuts] New GNSS chipsets

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Joe,

On 03/31/2018 01:16 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:
> I've been reading announcements by Broadcom, uBlox and ST Micro for new
> chipsets that will use L1, L2, L5 to provide significantly more precise
> positioning for every day applications like cell phone, autonomous
> vehicles, UAV, etc. Broadcom is claiming 30 cm, uBlox just says "centimeter
> level". The next few years ought to be very interesting, as these chipsets
> become available in consumer products.

I have advocated for receivers able to handle multiple frequencies and
multiple GNSS for some time, sneaking it into documents, so there should
be some preparations for this now.

The benefit is naturally redundancy, but also higher precision.

Natural I would enjoy cheap multi-frequency receivers myself, but I
would never admit that this would be a reason for advocating it. ;-)

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] TV Signals as a frequency reference

[Mark Spencer]

Yes I actually purchased two such devices from Ebay a while back.   (They 
contained nice PRS10 Rb oscillators.)

Mark Spencer

Aligned Solutions Co.
m...@alignedsolutions.com
604 762 4099

> On Mar 31, 2018, at 12:09 PM, Ruslan Nabioullin  wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 9:38 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>> You probably would do better to build a gizmo to pull timing off you local 
>> cell towers.
>> The hardware to do it is relatively well documented. As long as you are 
>> careful about
>> which system you use, the timing should be GPS based ….
> 
> Commercially-made cellular reference receivers obviously do exist (IT
> folks tend to love them due to there being no need for outdoor antenna
> requirements).
> 
> -Ruslan
> 
> -- 
> Ruslan Nabioullin
> Wittgenstein Laboratories
> rnabioul...@gmail.com
> (508) 523-8535
> 50 Louise Dr.
> Hollis, NH 03049
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Re: [time-nuts] Timestamping audio waveforms

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Tim,

On 03/31/2018 04:41 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> I would like sub-millisecond timestamps for a mono audio radio signal that
> I have in the shack.
> 
> The timestamps could be continuous (Every sample) or just every "frame"
> where maybe a frame is a second to a minute.
> 
> I would like to calibrate both the absolute time as well as the delta time
> between samples based on the timestamps. (I would expect that say a nominal
> 48kHz sample rate would be off by many tens of ppm because of crystal
> tolerances.).
> 
> I have a both Windows and Linux based PCs running Audacity with a local
> GPS-based LAN refclock and ntpd. I trust the ntpd time to be stable to the
> sub-millisecond.
> 
> Can Audacity do this kind of timestamping for me based on the system clock?
> 
> Or should I, say, take the PPS from a GPS, and feed it into channel 2, with
> the audio going into channel 1, and make a stereo recording? I suppose I
> could then manually label the filename with the second the recording was
> begun. There would likely be some delta (maybe half the sample interval?)
> between the two channels but I'm fine with that as long as it is at the
> sub-millisecond level.

Have a IRIG-B signal recorded on the second track.
IRIG-B has been decoded before, here is one I threw together:

https://github.com/sa0mad/irigb

You can readout the time for each sample.

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS System Message (was: TV Signals as a frequency reference)

[Scott Newell]

At 01:21 PM 3/31/2018, Mark Sims wrote:
Or on the GPS/GNSS signals...  I was verifying Lady Heather's 
support for the old SV6/Palisade/Acutime receivers and came across a 
mention of the "GPS System Message" command.   It is requested by 
TSIP packet 0x28 and returns


I dug into this a while back, download several years with of archived 
data, and decoded the messages. Everything looked like gibberish.



# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V

Yep, that's the kind of stuff I saw.

Found some from a while back:

w UPR2GYSUZD5V:TK3E26MA
w+5DH4UQWN8AVCRAW.QXIVB
w-O+ZX6R/HU9.W /P70HV7
w3-BE-8"6VIE/5A20 W+/N.
w4F.44-8/WMPED69FGXYRJ1
w4JTW1S9QAI.6JS54JGUIZ
w7BEI+9IJW2:E6W36VCU3Z
w7G2NKRQN16"C0-46/S3U9
w7H48BKS'B02TZ.MC3HEU7H
w8E8K8"Z.T2F98KLJLW/58X
w91D1H5FZQJ+/V92XF7AERA
wCPSX.SF/0NWY+AEXFY0RQG
wE.TS-ZM3XFYZG2LW.G97+
wEN37J9F5CW1RQQ377FG'U6
wF:Y WA0WLTWFV/XK-RXJE
wKC2JKG+2X1V1 ZBZD6R4K
wKF4H7SW NC-J1ES6M77J
wL/R:BBGD5X.567A+76R
wN07DH.IGFII J5PK0DSR5
wO"70PPO'IDLQ2:+.99URQB
wOLDX6NGM5KNF7Q-B85MTS"
wP62HO"EP6/G7WDOXRLBE.
wQ4UY+EX+R0D76IJI-/7JQ+
wR0ON69F30VS3CWLX3 0 T
wRG W7VCLD/73/3UIVT"8T'
wSE+HPL/7GZB1S6KFVS:1
wU300IZO.40R3EG- HW:'1
wUD /V5Y5NLT-9KGLC46B8G
wVKOVQ0XDS'1BP2C8"M5JA/
w9NVC2SC'9C7QIQE+ W+OT/
wF2JJJIR7/GE/M+/VUNB 8
wTRME71QU6J5/WWEGR5UOH.
wV615HC99364:A0/P"X HE2
wYH'X1--WO685-0HBTV7 ZL

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Re: [time-nuts] TV Signals as a frequency reference

[Don Murray via time-nuts]

Dana...
 
Back in the day when out of studio news stories were
shot on film, which was then processed at the studio 
and broadcast from a "film chain" stations would lock 
their sync generators to the incoming network signal
during network hours.  That allowed "clean" switching 
in and out of network programming.
 
When you were in the local programming portion of the 
day, the local sync generator would not be "looking" at 
the network signal for reference.  That was done because 
there may have been times when the AT microwave 
network was down for maintenance.  Obviously this was 
before the days of satellite delivery of the network services.
 
You are correct...  when the "Live Truck" came on the
scene with instant on scene video, etc, the demand
for frame syncs at each station went up.
 
Our first frame sync at, WTVJ in Miami, had been used
at the Cape for some of the moon shots.  It was a huge
box, occupying about two feet of rack space!
 
Later frame syncs, would drop in size to 1RU!
 
All those frame syncs were locked to our local
master sync generator.  At one of our monitoring
positions I could compare our local 3.58MHz
color burst frequency to the networks and adjust
the phase so they were in agreement.  This was
just a good method of checking our "in house"
reference to have it on frequency.  If the 3.58
was on frequency, all the other outputs from
the master sync generator would be correct.
 
Later sync generators were GPS disciplined.
 
BTW... our later model analog transmitter was GPS locked
with one of the original HP boxes.  I remember ordering the
HP and then WAITING forever for it to arrive.  ;-)
 
In the interim, the transmitter ran on it's TCXO box.
 
We had twice yearly frequency measurements done
by a monitoring service up the coast.
 
73
Don
W4WJ
 
 
In a message dated 3/31/2018 11:04:12 AM Central Standard Time, 
k8yumdoo...@gmail.com writes:
 
 I'e always been curious as to why TV stations did not lock at least
their in-house equipment to the network feed as a means to avoid
spending money on frame syncs. Remote coverage, on the other
hand, would of course open a new can of worms.

But compared to the cost of building and powering a TV station and
associated studios etc, a Rb or three cost a mere drop in the bucket
to buy and maintain, so I'm baffled as to why stations in general did
not at use them on a regular basis.

Dana


On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 12:43 AM, Hal Murray 
wrote:

> > As noted earlier, color burst references were a big deal a long time ago.
>
> Thanks. I was fishing for something modern, maybe a bit clock out of the
> digital receiver.
>
> I'm assuming that the digital stream is locked to the carrier. That may
> not
> be correct.
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions. I hate spam.
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS System Message (was: TV Signals as a frequency reference)

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Mark:

I don't think the SV Messages are related to Over The Air Rekeying (OTAR) since they don't have enough characters.  My 
guess is that they are a modern form of the Emergency Action Message (EAM).

Here's a screen shot of a DAGR GPS receiver showing the first couple of 
messages as of 2 pm pacific time 3/31/2018:
http://www.prc68.com/I/DAGR.shtml#SV_Messages
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over_the_Air_Rekeying
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Action_Message

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html

 Original Message 

Or on the GPS/GNSS signals...  I was verifying Lady Heather's support for the old 
SV6/Palisade/Acutime receivers and came across a mention of the "GPS System 
Message" command.   It is requested by TSIP packet 0x28 and returns packet 0x48.  
Newer Trimble receivers (like the Resolution-T don't seem to support the 0x28/0x48 
messages. It is only mentioned in the SV6 docs.  The system message is a 22 character 
ASCII string embedded in the GPS navigation messages.

If you dig into the GPS ICD docs it says it is used like a "bulletin board" for 
GPS users and can be a plaintext or encrypted message.  They currently seem to be 
encrypted...  perhaps a way to distribute P-code keys?

I wonder if any of the newer GNSS sats have some hidden goodies in the signals?

When sent to the SV6, you get a single response.  When sent to a Thunderbolt, 
you get 31 messages (mostly all the same).   I think the different messages are 
due to delays in the ground control system updating the satellites or the 
receiver not tracking particular satellites between updates.

Here a couple of responses from a Thunderbolt:

# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:Z9Mx69BOC1 Lx+:LR3X2 Q
# GPS system message:Z9Mx69BOC1 Lx+:LR3X2 Q
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:Z9Mx69BOC1 Lx+:LR3X2 Q
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V


# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:5FT16X78CN53GVWVF1/8BW
# GPS system message:5FT16X78CN53GVWVF1/8BW
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:5FT16X78CN53GVWVF1/8BW
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO




I wonder how many secret services are parasites on the commercial

TV transponders
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Re: [time-nuts] TV Signals as a frequency reference

[Martin VE3OAT]

I grew up in the 50s and 60s watching the lines at the top of the TV 
screen change in black and white segments according to their coded 
information.  My Dad had adjusted our set so he could see those lines. 
 (He was a field service specialist for Canadian General Electric.)


I think the network timing information was in "line 6", though I might 
not remember accurately.  There was all kinds of other information in 
those lines at the top, although only technical people knew about it 
because most TV sets were adjusted so you couldn't see them.


73,
... Martin   VE3OAT


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Re: [time-nuts] Timestamping audio waveforms

[Hal Murray]

tsho...@gmail.com said:
> Or should I, say, take the PPS from a GPS, and feed it into channel 2, with
> the audio going into channel 1, and make a stereo recording?  ...

I assume the audio API is for a batch of samples.  If you get time stamps on 
a stream of batches, you can work out the frequency of the crystal the audio 
A/D is using.

I think you will need the PPS approach to calibrate the delay through the 
system.  If it's low enough, you can drop it.

-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] Timestamping audio waveforms

[Attila Kinali]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 10:41:45 -0400
Tim Shoppa  wrote:

> Can Audacity do this kind of timestamping for me based on the system clock?

I don't know about audacity, but writing a small program in c that
reads from the soundcard and does the timestamping is pretty easy.
Should be less than 50 lines of code, with error checking and all.
You can use [1] as a decent starting point.

One important point: Switch off all other applications that access
the soundcard, as some of these are pretty nasty when it comes
to their behaviour. Especially pulseaudio is known to mess with
all kinds of settings while running Oh, and don't even try
to run anything ontop of pulseaudio, it is known to mess up
audio timing by several 10ms, sometimes even over 100ms.

Attila Kinali


[1] https://gist.github.com/albanpeignier/104902

-- 
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
throw DARK chocolate at you.
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Re: [time-nuts] TV Signals as a frequency reference

[Ruslan Nabioullin]

On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 9:38 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> You probably would do better to build a gizmo to pull timing off you local 
> cell towers.
> The hardware to do it is relatively well documented. As long as you are 
> careful about
> which system you use, the timing should be GPS based ….

Commercially-made cellular reference receivers obviously do exist (IT
folks tend to love them due to there being no need for outdoor antenna
requirements).

-Ruslan

-- 
Ruslan Nabioullin
Wittgenstein Laboratories
rnabioul...@gmail.com
(508) 523-8535
50 Louise Dr.
Hollis, NH 03049
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[time-nuts] GPS System Message (was: TV Signals as a frequency reference)

[Mark Sims]

Or on the GPS/GNSS signals...  I was verifying Lady Heather's support for the 
old SV6/Palisade/Acutime receivers and came across a mention of the "GPS System 
Message" command.   It is requested by TSIP packet 0x28 and returns packet 
0x48.  Newer Trimble receivers (like the Resolution-T don't seem to support the 
0x28/0x48 messages. It is only mentioned in the SV6 docs.  The system message 
is a 22 character ASCII string embedded in the GPS navigation messages.   

If you dig into the GPS ICD docs it says it is used like a "bulletin board" for 
GPS users and can be a plaintext or encrypted message.  They currently seem to 
be encrypted...  perhaps a way to distribute P-code keys?

I wonder if any of the newer GNSS sats have some hidden goodies in the signals?

When sent to the SV6, you get a single response.  When sent to a Thunderbolt, 
you get 31 messages (mostly all the same).   I think the different messages are 
due to delays in the ground control system updating the satellites or the 
receiver not tracking particular satellites between updates.

Here a couple of responses from a Thunderbolt:

# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:Z9Mx69BOC1 Lx+:LR3X2 Q
# GPS system message:Z9Mx69BOC1 Lx+:LR3X2 Q
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:Z9Mx69BOC1 Lx+:LR3X2 Q
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V
# GPS system message:X4W-BZXE3/HPU77G49PU1V


# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:5FT16X78CN53GVWVF1/8BW
# GPS system message:5FT16X78CN53GVWVF1/8BW
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:5FT16X78CN53GVWVF1/8BW
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO
# GPS system message:E:S4.A2'3'A65/C5M8 UQO



> I wonder how many secret services are parasites on the commercial
TV transponders
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Re: [time-nuts] TV Signals as a frequency reference

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

To a great extent it depends on who was running the tech side of things. If the 
guy
in charge dug into it, they may have had a pretty fancy timing setup. If it was 
a 
“don’t bother / don’t dig / not very broken” sort of thing, the setup may have 
been 
pretty crazy. 

Bob

> On Mar 31, 2018, at 7:12 AM, Dana Whitlow  wrote:
> 
> I'e always been curious as to why TV stations did not lock at least
> their in-house equipment to the network feed as  a means to avoid
> spending money on frame syncs.  Remote coverage, on the other
> hand, would of course open a new can of worms.
> 
> But compared to the cost of building and powering a TV station and
> associated studios etc, a Rb or three cost a mere drop in the bucket
> to buy and maintain, so I'm baffled as to why stations in general did
> not at use them on a regular basis.
> 
> Dana
> 
> 
> On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 12:43 AM, Hal Murray 
> wrote:
> 
>>> As noted earlier, color burst references were a big deal a long time ago.
>> 
>> Thanks.  I was fishing for something modern, maybe a bit clock out of the
>> digital receiver.
>> 
>> I'm assuming that the digital stream is locked to the carrier.  That may
>> not
>> be correct.
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>> 
>> 
>> 
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[time-nuts] Open Access (was: WWV/CHU)

[Attila Kinali]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 12:25:34 +0100
"Dr. David Kirkby"  wrote:

> Alexandra Elbakyan makes the very valid point that authors do not get paid
> for submitting papers, reviewers do not get paid for reviewing them, yet
> the publishers charge significant amounts of money for distribution of
> electronic copies of papers. This is VERY different to books or music,
> where authors get royalties from copies sold.

And just to drive another nail into this coffin:
Writing an easy paper takes something like a week (after the research
is done). Writing a difficult one can easily take one or two months until
it's in a form that can be understood. Reviewing takes anything between
half a day (easy, experimental paper) to a week (100 pages of proofs),
for each reviewer! Then there is the guy in India who gets paid a dollar
a day to make the paper's layout fit the journals general rules (and often
botches the whole paper in the process, to the point where the author has
to prohibit its publication). If you want to have it as Open Access, then
publication can cost anything between 1000€ and 5000€, depending on the
publisher and journal. In most countries, that in the order of a months
salary... for what? So far, the only value I have seen, that these
publishers provide is the organisation of double blind reviews. 
Everything else is just make pretend. There is not even have any form
of quality control of the reviews. Heck, I've seen one line reviews of
the form "This paper is stuipd." And I am not talking yet about the
butchoring they do in the name of editing (like replacing minus signs
with dashes or changing the number format such that you cannot distinguish
between a decimal separator and an item separator).

>From all the venues I've seen so far, IEEE was the least hassle.
They demand you to use their LaTeX template. They check whether
you "optimized" it upon upload, and that's it. Yes, their Open Access
fee is still significant, though lower than most others. But at least
they do not pretend to know better than the authors how to format a
paper. And, unlike Springer and Elsevier, IEEE does not seem to care
when an author puts their own papers on their website (though, officially
the copyright asignment prohibits that).

I don't like that sci-hub has to work in a legal dark gray area.
But the way publishers work these days, borders on extortion and is 
IMHO a big waste of tax money (we are talking about several 10's of
millions per year, country and publisher). Honestly, I couldn't care
less if Springer and Elsevier would go bancrupt and didn't exist
anymore, if it wouldn't be for the papers they hold hostage, which
would become completely inaccessible over night. As such, I am glad
that the Open Access movement has got so much traction these days.
It gives me hope that in future, our knowledge will be accessible
to everyone, not just a select few who can afford the fees.

As a researcher, I do not really care where my paper is published,
as long as people can read it (the more people read my paper,
the better). A paper published at a venue that actively seeks
to prevent people from reading papers (I am looking at you, ION!)
is a place I will not publish at. And from personal experience
I can say that it's much more likely that easily available papers
get cited than one that is behind an inpenetrable pay-wall.



Attila Kinali
-- 
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
throw DARK chocolate at you.
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Re: [time-nuts] TV Signals as a frequency reference

[Chris Waldrup]

When the transition to digital only happened, I happened to ask a ham friend 
who was chief engineer at the local Fox station what they were doing with all 
their gear. He said probably taking it to a hamfest. 
I said if you chuck your rubidium or cesium standard let me know. He started 
laughing and said we don’t have anything that precision, you’d be lucky for it 
to be a TCXO. 

Chris
KD4PBJ

> On Mar 31, 2018, at 9:46 AM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 3/30/18 10:43 PM, Hal Murray wrote:
>>> As noted earlier, color burst references were a big deal a long time ago.
>> Thanks.  I was fishing for something modern, maybe a bit clock out of the
>> digital receiver.
>> I'm assuming that the digital stream is locked to the carrier.  That may not
>> be correct.
> Maybe locked, but probably not in a 'integer number of cycles per symbol' 
> sense, more in the "derived from the same master 10 MHz reference" sense.
> 
> All stations use the same data rates, but have different carrier frequencies, 
> and the carrier frequencies are the same ones we've always had, which don't 
> necessarily have nice ratios between them.
> 
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[time-nuts] Timestamping audio waveforms

[Tim Shoppa]

I would like sub-millisecond timestamps for a mono audio radio signal that
I have in the shack.

The timestamps could be continuous (Every sample) or just every "frame"
where maybe a frame is a second to a minute.

I would like to calibrate both the absolute time as well as the delta time
between samples based on the timestamps. (I would expect that say a nominal
48kHz sample rate would be off by many tens of ppm because of crystal
tolerances.).

I have a both Windows and Linux based PCs running Audacity with a local
GPS-based LAN refclock and ntpd. I trust the ntpd time to be stable to the
sub-millisecond.

Can Audacity do this kind of timestamping for me based on the system clock?

Or should I, say, take the PPS from a GPS, and feed it into channel 2, with
the audio going into channel 1, and make a stereo recording? I suppose I
could then manually label the filename with the second the recording was
begun. There would likely be some delta (maybe half the sample interval?)
between the two channels but I'm fine with that as long as it is at the
sub-millisecond level.

Tim N3QE
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[time-nuts] New GNSS chipsets

[Joseph Gray]

I've been reading announcements by Broadcom, uBlox and ST Micro for new
chipsets that will use L1, L2, L5 to provide significantly more precise
positioning for every day applications like cell phone, autonomous
vehicles, UAV, etc. Broadcom is claiming 30 cm, uBlox just says "centimeter
level". The next few years ought to be very interesting, as these chipsets
become available in consumer products.

Joe Gray
W5JG
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[time-nuts] GPS ANTENNA

[donandarline]

I found a supplier for high quality GPS antennas at a very reasonable price.
PCTEL GPSL1-TMG-SPI-40NCB.
They have other ones too.
I bought one and it works great.
New in the box, never opened.
The only thing wrong was the 4 base mounting screws were too short (no big 
deal).
They are on Ebay  # 282851759313.
$48.00 shipped.
Thanks,
Don W9BHI

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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Re: [time-nuts] TV Signals as a frequency reference

[jimlux]

On 3/30/18 10:43 PM, Hal Murray wrote:

As noted earlier, color burst references were a big deal a long time ago.


Thanks.  I was fishing for something modern, maybe a bit clock out of the
digital receiver.

I'm assuming that the digital stream is locked to the carrier.  That may not
be correct.


Maybe locked, but probably not in a 'integer number of cycles per 
symbol' sense, more in the "derived from the same master 10 MHz 
reference" sense.


All stations use the same data rates, but have different carrier 
frequencies, and the carrier frequencies are the same ones we've always 
had, which don't necessarily have nice ratios between them.


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Re: [time-nuts] WWV/CHU

[Dr. David Kirkby]

On 30 March 2018 at 06:49, Tom Van Baak  wrote:

>
> FYI: for the original spam-free version, please use:
>
> https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/469.pdf
>
> In general, if the author or paper is related to NIST, the original
> copyright-free PDF will be available in the NIST Time and Frequency
> Publication Database. That easily searchable database, and the thousands of
> papers it contains, is probably the greatest asset we time nuts have. For
> those of you that don't know it yet, check it out:
>
> https://tf.nist.gov/general/publications.htm


That's useful to know.

I have been in contact with someone at NPL, who provided papers by either

1) Attaching a copy.
2) Mentioning it was on Research Gate - a site I personally find annoying.
3) A link to IEEE (or similar), which will has a paywall.

This suggests to me NPL don't have all their papers available online,
although at least some can be found at

http://www.npl.co.uk/publications/

For anyone interested in metrology, and I assume that includes everyone on
this list, this NPL publication,

"A beginner's guide to uncertainty of measurement." by Stephanie Bell

http://www.npl.co.uk/publications/a-beginners-guide-to-uncertainty-in-measurement

is well worth a read. This is far more readable than "Guide to the
expression of uncertainty in measurement (GUM)", which is heavy going.


>
> As a non-academic working from home one of the greatest frustrations is
> getting copies of old and new scientific articles.
>

You obviously share the same frustrations as Alexandra Elbakyan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_Elbakyan

Because of her inability to get some papers, she set up sci-hub.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sci-Hub

Alexandra Elbakyan makes the very valid point that authors do not get paid
for submitting papers, reviewers do not get paid for reviewing them, yet
the publishers charge significant amounts of money for distribution of
electronic copies of papers. This is VERY different to books or music,
where authors get royalties from copies sold.

You can debate the ethics of sci-hub, with many scientists having strong
and opposing views on sci-hub. The site does allow one to get virtually any
academic paper for free. There are no ads, but donations are accepted by
bitcoin - which reminds me, I must set up a bitcoin wallet so I can donate
to sci-hub.

Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] TV Signals as a frequency reference

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

My comments really were a bit brief…. indeed there *are* clocks in the modern
signals. Those clocks come over as part of the signal you get. The must be a 
way to build something that would get at those clocks. 

You still have the same basic issue as with the “old” signals. Does it go 
through
a satellite link? Does it come straight from a Cs based studio? Does it get 
regenerated
against an OCXO or a TCXO? All of that will make it a good reference “some of 
the time”. Working out when that is …. good luck.

You probably would do better to build a gizmo to pull timing off you local cell 
towers. 
The hardware to do it is relatively well documented. As long as you are careful 
about
which system you use, the timing should be GPS based …. 

Ok, so the issue is an alternative to GPS? Well one of the “likely sources” for 
a modern TV broadcast setup would be a GPSDO. The same thing for the modern 
digital FM broadcast setups. I have good reason to make this claim ….. :)

Bob

> On Mar 31, 2018, at 1:43 AM, Hal Murray  wrote:
> 
>> As noted earlier, color burst references were a big deal a long time ago.
> 
> Thanks.  I was fishing for something modern, maybe a bit clock out of the 
> digital receiver.
> 
> I'm assuming that the digital stream is locked to the carrier.  That may not 
> be correct.
> 
> 
> -- 
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [time-nuts] TV Signals as a frequency reference

[Dana Whitlow]

I'e always been curious as to why TV stations did not lock at least
their in-house equipment to the network feed as  a means to avoid
spending money on frame syncs.  Remote coverage, on the other
hand, would of course open a new can of worms.

But compared to the cost of building and powering a TV station and
associated studios etc, a Rb or three cost a mere drop in the bucket
to buy and maintain, so I'm baffled as to why stations in general did
not at use them on a regular basis.

Dana


On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 12:43 AM, Hal Murray 
wrote:

> > As noted earlier, color burst references were a big deal a long time ago.
>
> Thanks.  I was fishing for something modern, maybe a bit clock out of the
> digital receiver.
>
> I'm assuming that the digital stream is locked to the carrier.  That may
> not
> be correct.
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] TV Signals as a frequency reference

[Don Murray via time-nuts]

Hello all...
 
 
One limitation, back in the day, when the network
signal was being passed thru to the local markets...
 
Many stations used a frame sync to time the network
signal to the local house signal.  In other words the
network reference was stripped and retimed to the
house so as to avoid picture roll during switching 
transitions between local and network programming.
 
So that meant that the local and network signals were
locked to the local sync generator which used a
fairly stable TCXO, not cesium or Rb.
 
Other stations would trim their local oscillator to
match the network phase without the need for a
frame sync.  This meant that someone was responsible 
for monitoring how their local oscillator was tracking 
against the network.
 
I spent over 35 years at WTVJ in Miami and over
the years we had an inventory of over 40 frame
syncs to lock remote feeds to house sync.
 
73
Don
W4WJ 
 
In a message dated 3/30/2018 4:54:36 PM Central Standard Time, 
fgr...@otiengineering.com writes:

 
 Hal Murray (hmur...@megapathdsl.net) said:

"Roughly 40 years ago, a friend showed me a NBS booklet describing a scheme
for distributing time via TV. I forget the details. It was a cooperative
project with one of the major networks. NBS published the propagation delays
which changed occasionally as the phone companies providing the underlying
links rerouted things.

This is an IEEE article from 1972 that looks like a good fit:
 Nationwide Precise Time and Frequency
 Distribution Utilizing an Active Code Within
 Network Television Broadcasts
 DAVID A. HOWE
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/3092613;

 I was a TV Broadcast Engineer in the 70s. There were a number of
schemes for transmitting frequency standard information via the TV
signal. One used the VITS signal referenced above. Another used a
cesium standard to control the 3.58 MHz (actually 3.579545454... MHz)
color burst signal. There were several articles in the hobbyist
press at the time on using this for a standard. You had to be
careful to use a network program, however; most local station could
not afford a cesium reference for something like that. (Actually,
the station I worked for had one but it was used for controlling the
transmitter frequency. Long story). Now that analog TV has gone
away, so have these signals.

 Francis Grosz

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Re: [time-nuts] TV Signals as a frequency reference

[Hal Murray]

> As noted earlier, color burst references were a big deal a long time ago.

Thanks.  I was fishing for something modern, maybe a bit clock out of the 
digital receiver.

I'm assuming that the digital stream is locked to the carrier.  That may not 
be correct.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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