subject:"\[time\-nuts\] 10MHz LTE\-Lite"

On the 10MHz LTE-Lite, how far out from true UTC would the PPS be expected 
to be?


It seems to be about 200+ ns late on my unit, although it is much more 
stable than a typical GPS/PPS produces.


Thanks,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk 


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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite - PPS accuracy?

Hi

On *most* GPSDO’s, the simple answer is “there is a cable delay adjustment to 
align it”. Without some sort of reliable representation of UTC (at the ns 
level) it’s tough to measure. If you happen to live at USNO or NIST, you can 
access that sort of timing. For the rest of us - not so easy. The NIST two way 
GPS “modem” setup is about the only practical method that I know of.

The PPS out of any GPSDO will be much lower jitter than the pps from a normal 
GPS module. 

Bob

 On Dec 8, 2014, at 7:17 AM, David J Taylor david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk 
 wrote:
 
 On the 10MHz LTE-Lite, how far out from true UTC would the PPS be expected to 
 be?
 
 It seems to be about 200+ ns late on my unit, although it is much more stable 
 than a typical GPS/PPS produces.
 
 Thanks,
 David
 -- 
 SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
 Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
 Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk 
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite - PPS accuracy?

2014-12-08 Thread Dave Martindale

What is the source of the 1 PPS you are comparing against?

I compared my LTE-Lite to an old Thunderbolt (original model, single 24 V
input with internal DC to DC converters, Piezo oscillator).  At the time,
the Thunderbolt had been running for a few months, while the LTE-Lite had
been running for a week or so.  Antennas were sitting on the window ledge
of a west-facing window, so relatively poor sky coverage.  I connected the
PPS outputs from the two GPSDOs to two channels of a digital scope and left
it running in accumulate mode.  A couple of the resulting displays are
attached below (I hope).  Yellow trace is the Thunderbolt PPS, also the
trigger source.  The LTE-Lite is the cyan trace.  Each image shows signals
accumulated over a period of about 8-12 hours.

As you can see, the relative timing of the two 1 Hz signals wanders by
about +- 100 ns around a midpoint value, but at this midpoint the LTE-Lite
is around 50 ns later that the Thunderbolt.  (I call it a midpoint
because it's judged by eye as halfway between the two recorded extremes.  I
don't have a record of the individual measurements, so I can't calculate
mean or median).  The Thunderbolt's antenna cable is perhaps 10 feet
shorter than the LTE-Lite's, so that accounts for ~15 ns (Thunderbolt
antennas compensation is set to zero).

So, at my house, the LTE-Lite is about 50 ns late (or the TB is 50 ns
early).  That's one cycle of the LTE-Lite 20 MHz TCXO - coincidence?

I also have an old Garmin GPS-25 board.  This is a navigation GPS, without
timing features, but it does have a 1 PPS output.  I've included one
capture of GPS-25 vs. Thunderbolt.  The jitter is much worse; most (but not
all) traces are within +- 400 ns of the Thunderbolt (note the different
horizontal sweep).  And there is also an overall bias: the Garmin receiver
appears to be about 100 ns late on average compared to the TB.

Unfortunately, I don't have any other way to measure which GPSDO has the
more accurate PPS, and which one is responsible for most of the jitter.  (A
man with two GPSDOs never knows what time it is, precisely).

I do have a big old 5 MHz OCXO pulled from a Transit receiver which is
probably quite stable, but it is 0.2 Hz off nominal frequency and is not
adjustable.  Viewed on a scope alongside either GPSDO output, the 5 MHz
phase shifts by one cycle every 5 seconds, too fast to make any comparison
by eye of the stability of either GPSDO.

- Dave

On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 7:17 AM, David J Taylor 
david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:

 On the 10MHz LTE-Lite, how far out from true UTC would the PPS be expected
 to be?

 It seems to be about 200+ ns late on my unit, although it is much more
 stable than a typical GPS/PPS produces.

 Thanks,
 David
 --
 SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
 Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
 Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite - PPS accuracy?


Hi

On *most* GPSDO’s, the simple answer is “there is a cable delay adjustment 
to align it”. Without some sort of reliable representation of UTC (at the ns 
level) it’s tough to measure. If you happen to live at USNO or NIST, you can 
access that sort of timing. For the rest of us - not so easy. The NIST two 
way GPS “modem” setup is about the only practical method that I know of.


The PPS out of any GPSDO will be much lower jitter than the pps from a 
normal GPS module.


Bob
==

Bob,

Thanks for your comments.  The antenna location and cable lengths are very 
similar (either 0, 5m or 10m) so I was expecting somewhat less than 50 ns 
difference.  200+ ns is rather more than I expected for the LTE-Lite, so I 
did wonder whether anyone else had measured it.


Although I've not checked it rigorously, most of the GPS/PPS units here of 
various brands are within under 100 ns of each other, hence my expectation.


Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk 


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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite - PPS accuracy?

2014-12-08 Thread Bill Dailey

Or use 1ns per foot of antenna cable.  That will get you closer.

Sent from mobile

 On Dec 8, 2014, at 8:16 AM, David J Taylor david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk 
 wrote:
 
 Hi
 
 On *most* GPSDO’s, the simple answer is “there is a cable delay adjustment to 
 align it”. Without some sort of reliable representation of UTC (at the ns 
 level) it’s tough to measure. If you happen to live at USNO or NIST, you can 
 access that sort of timing. For the rest of us - not so easy. The NIST two 
 way GPS “modem” setup is about the only practical method that I know of.
 
 The PPS out of any GPSDO will be much lower jitter than the pps from a normal 
 GPS module.
 
 Bob
 ==
 
 Bob,
 
 Thanks for your comments.  The antenna location and cable lengths are very 
 similar (either 0, 5m or 10m) so I was expecting somewhat less than 50 ns 
 difference.  200+ ns is rather more than I expected for the LTE-Lite, so I 
 did wonder whether anyone else had measured it.
 
 Although I've not checked it rigorously, most of the GPS/PPS units here of 
 various brands are within under 100 ns of each other, hence my expectation.
 
 Cheers,
 David
 -- 
 SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
 Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
 Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk 
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite - PPS accuracy?

From: Bill Dailey 


Or use 1ns per foot of antenna cable.  That will get you closer.
==

I was using 5ns per metre to allow for velocity factor.

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite - PPS accuracy?


From: Dave Martindale

What is the source of the 1 PPS you are comparing against?

I compared my LTE-Lite to an old Thunderbolt (original model, single 24 V
input with internal DC to DC converters, Piezo oscillator).  At the time,
the Thunderbolt had been running for a few months, while the LTE-Lite had
been running for a week or so.  Antennas were sitting on the window ledge
of a west-facing window, so relatively poor sky coverage.  I connected the
PPS outputs from the two GPSDOs to two channels of a digital scope and left
it running in accumulate mode.  A couple of the resulting displays are
attached below (I hope).  Yellow trace is the Thunderbolt PPS, also the
trigger source.  The LTE-Lite is the cyan trace.  Each image shows signals
accumulated over a period of about 8-12 hours.

As you can see, the relative timing of the two 1 Hz signals wanders by
about +- 100 ns around a midpoint value, but at this midpoint the LTE-Lite
is around 50 ns later that the Thunderbolt.  (I call it a midpoint
because it's judged by eye as halfway between the two recorded extremes.  I
don't have a record of the individual measurements, so I can't calculate
mean or median).  The Thunderbolt's antenna cable is perhaps 10 feet
shorter than the LTE-Lite's, so that accounts for ~15 ns (Thunderbolt
antennas compensation is set to zero).

So, at my house, the LTE-Lite is about 50 ns late (or the TB is 50 ns
early).  That's one cycle of the LTE-Lite 20 MHz TCXO - coincidence?
[]
- Dave
===

Dave,

My comparison is against a Rapco 1904M, which is another GPSDO.  That does 
agree on a causal measurement with a number of simple GPS/PPS units I have. 
A u-blox LEA-6T shows about 80 ns later than the 1904M, and a u-blox NEO-6M 
between 50 ns early and 200 ns late, both after being on for just a few 
minutes, and with no special care in antenna placing.


Do you think that your measurement (~35 ns offset) is consistent with the 
LTE-Lite specification:


 1 PPS Timing Accuracy from GPS receiver
 8ns to UTC RMS (1-Sigma) GPS Locked

and the specification of the Thunderbolt?

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk 


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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-12-08 Thread Byron Hayes Jr


Time-Nuts Group,

I thought some of you might be interested in my experience with the 
10MHz LTE-Lite.


The 10MHz LTE-Lite arrived about a week ago.  I was not ready to make 
a permanent installation, I wanted it portable and I wanted to get 
started quickly.  I am hobbyist interested mainly in the HF 
spectrum.  So I decided to operate the LTE-Lite inside the Priority 
Mail box, which was pretty much intact.  I cut a 5 X 8 piece of 
corrugated cardboard, mounted the unit on it with two doublestick 
pads, and put the cardboard with the unit into the Priority Mail 
box.  I cut a hole in the top of the box so I could see the LEDs, and 
cut three small holes in the side, one for the USB cable, one for the 
antenna wire and one for the 10 MHz output.  I attached the USB 
cable, antenna wire and 10 MHz output cable to the unit and ran them 
out of the box through the holes.  I had an operating Lenovo X220 
Windows 7 computer near to the box, so I plugged the USB cable into 
the computer (I did not try to get or use any software on the 
computer to decipher any messages from the LTE-Lite).  I was in an 
upstairs North facing bedroom (in the Los Angeles area) so I put the 
antenna on a nearby windowsill.  I hooked the 10MHz output to the 
channel 1 (Hi Z) input of my Tektronix 222A osciloscope, with the 
trigger on channel 1.


When power was applied through the USB line, the LEDs seemed to light 
normally.  Within a couple of hours the lock LED was on, but the 
oscilloscope was showing noise, not a meaningful output.  I let the 
whole thing sit overnight, and the next day an apparent 10 MHz trace 
was on the screen.  It was not a sine wave, and not a square wave, 
but something in between.


I had a small Rb unit, an Efratom 10 MHz FRS-C built into a TM-500 
plug-in.  I set that up and let it warm up and lock.  I connected the 
Rb output to channel 2 of the 222A and got that trace on the 
screen.  It was a sine wave basically in lock step with the LTE-Lite 
trace.  Over a few hours one could see slight relative movement, but 
very slight.  What next?


I had a couple of HP 5300 series frequency counters, one a 5300B 
display with Option 1 (Hi-Stability time base) and a 5308B lower 
unit, and the other a plain 5300B display with a 5303B Option 1 
(Hi-Stability time base) lower unit.  I give both time to warm up.  I 
put a T in the LTE-Lite output line and another T in the Rb 
output line, and connected coax from the Ts to the HiZ input of each 
frequency counter.  After they settled down, the counter connected to 
the LTE-Lite read 1008 and the counter connected to the Rb read 
1002.  So, after a while, I reversed the leads to the counters, 
and the counter connected to the LTE-Lite read 1002 and the one 
conntected to the Rb read 1008.  Those readings have been 
consistent for several days.  That indicated to me that the LTE-Lite 
and the Rb were both outputing essentially the same frequency, but 
the counters were a bit off (I had never calibrated these counters, 
since I wasn't sure of the accuracy of the Rb unit).  But, I felt 
like the proverbial man with two watches.


So, I brought out Big Gonzo, a HP 5335A counter with Option 010 
(Hi-Stability time base) I purchased on eBay about six months ago but 
had never fired up.  It came up OK and I hooked it to the LTE-Lite 
output.  It initially read 1028, but I gave it a couple of hours 
to warm up the oscillator oven and stabilize.  By then, the reading 
had settled to 10 000 000.  Now I switched cables and hooked the Rb 
to the 5335A, and it read 10 000 000.  I hooked the LTE-Lite to 
channel A of the 5335A and the Rb to channel B of the 5335A, and set 
the counter to ratio.  When it settled, the counter read 1.000 000 
indicating that the two outputs were the same frequency, at least to 
six decimals.  Apparently the 5335A is right on.


I conclude that both the LTE-Lite and the Rb are outputting a 
1000 MHz signal.  I'm not sure of the accuracy beyond that.  They 
are probably both accurate enough for my purposes for calibrating 
other test equipment, receivers and transmitters operating in the HF spectrum.


I would be interested in any comments or suggestions from other list members.

Byron WA6ATN  
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-12-08 Thread Orin Eman

On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 11:07 AM, Byron Hayes Jr bha...@earthlink.net
wrote:

 So, I brought out Big Gonzo, a HP 5335A counter with Option 010
 (Hi-Stability time base) I purchased on eBay about six months ago but had
 never fired up.  It came up OK and I hooked it to the LTE-Lite output.  It
 initially read 1028, but I gave it a couple of hours to warm up the
 oscillator oven and stabilize.  By then, the reading had settled to 10 000
 000.  Now I switched cables and hooked the Rb to the 5335A, and it read 10
 000 000.  I hooked the LTE-Lite to channel A of the 5335A and the Rb to
 channel B of the 5335A, and set the counter to ratio.  When it settled,
 the counter read 1.000 000 indicating that the two outputs were the same
 frequency, at least to six decimals.  Apparently the 5335A is right on.



You can get another couple of digits for frequency out of the 5335A by
setting the gate longer... I use about 2 o'clock on the Gate Adj. pot.

My 5335A is now reading 9 999 999.96 for both LTE Lite and Trimble
Thunderbolt.  It must be coming on 4 years since Joe/KN5U adjusted the OCXO
in the 5335A, so its drift seems well within spec.

Orin.
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite - PPS accuracy?

2014-12-08 Thread Keith Loiselle

I work with Said at Jackson Labs.  I've been reading the time-nuts
discussion for a few years, but rarely chime in.  I saw this discussion and
wanted to make a couple points.

* The LTE Lite time accuracy specification corresponds with the Skytraq GPS
receiver's specs page which I have attached.  The specification is for the
output directly from the GPS receiver available on the LTE Lite Eval
Board's JP1 connector pin 12.  This specification assumes optimal antenna
placement and thermal conditions, and position hold mode. It is also an RMS
(1-sigma) measurement not a peak-to-peak measurement.

* The GPSDO-generated 1PPS on the LTE Lite Eval Board's J1 connector has a
phase offset to the GPS raw 1PPS that is shown in the PJLTS message (2nd
field).  The GPSDO functions to drive this phase offset to zero.  But at a
given time--especially shortly after power up--the offset may 100 ns or
more.

Keith


Keith

On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 7:12 AM, David J Taylor 
david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:

 From: Dave Martindale

 What is the source of the 1 PPS you are comparing against?

 I compared my LTE-Lite to an old Thunderbolt (original model, single 24 V
 input with internal DC to DC converters, Piezo oscillator).  At the time,
 the Thunderbolt had been running for a few months, while the LTE-Lite had
 been running for a week or so.  Antennas were sitting on the window ledge
 of a west-facing window, so relatively poor sky coverage.  I connected the
 PPS outputs from the two GPSDOs to two channels of a digital scope and left
 it running in accumulate mode.  A couple of the resulting displays are
 attached below (I hope).  Yellow trace is the Thunderbolt PPS, also the
 trigger source.  The LTE-Lite is the cyan trace.  Each image shows signals
 accumulated over a period of about 8-12 hours.

 As you can see, the relative timing of the two 1 Hz signals wanders by
 about +- 100 ns around a midpoint value, but at this midpoint the LTE-Lite
 is around 50 ns later that the Thunderbolt.  (I call it a midpoint
 because it's judged by eye as halfway between the two recorded extremes.  I
 don't have a record of the individual measurements, so I can't calculate
 mean or median).  The Thunderbolt's antenna cable is perhaps 10 feet
 shorter than the LTE-Lite's, so that accounts for ~15 ns (Thunderbolt
 antennas compensation is set to zero).

 So, at my house, the LTE-Lite is about 50 ns late (or the TB is 50 ns
 early).  That's one cycle of the LTE-Lite 20 MHz TCXO - coincidence?
 []
 - Dave
 ===

 Dave,

 My comparison is against a Rapco 1904M, which is another GPSDO.  That does
 agree on a causal measurement with a number of simple GPS/PPS units I have.
 A u-blox LEA-6T shows about 80 ns later than the 1904M, and a u-blox NEO-6M
 between 50 ns early and 200 ns late, both after being on for just a few
 minutes, and with no special care in antenna placing.

 Do you think that your measurement (~35 ns offset) is consistent with the
 LTE-Lite specification:

  1 PPS Timing Accuracy from GPS receiver
  8ns to UTC RMS (1-Sigma) GPS Locked

 and the specification of the Thunderbolt?

 Cheers,

 David
 --
 SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
 Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
 Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
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Venus838LPx-T-Specs.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite - PPS accuracy?

Hi

If you read the NIST papers where they have looked at the PPS accuracy compared 
to UTC, the results are not all that good. The assumption that any one GSDO is 
“correct” compared to UTC is *not* a good one. The consistency of a GPSDO is 
quite good. That’s a very different thing than it’s accuracy (delta to UTC). In 
the case that absolute error relative to UTC is a requirement, you need a local 
UTC reference. The antenna delay setting is then used to “align” all of your 
GPSDO’s against your reference.  On many GPSDO’s the antenna delay adjustment 
is a 100 ns resolution sort of thing.

Again, it’s important to understand that these boxes were all made for cell 
service. That’s not an application where exact traceability to UTC is needed. 
Simply having all the sites run the same (consistent) GPSDO is perfectly 
adequate. If you have two brands of GPSDO, figure out the offset between them, 
still no need for “real” UTC. The “UTC” specs you see are one sigma bounds on 
the wander. Offset / centering of that peak are an unknown that is buried deep 
in the fine print. 

Bob


 On Dec 8, 2014, at 10:12 AM, David J Taylor david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk 
 wrote:
 
 From: Dave Martindale
 
 What is the source of the 1 PPS you are comparing against?
 
 I compared my LTE-Lite to an old Thunderbolt (original model, single 24 V
 input with internal DC to DC converters, Piezo oscillator).  At the time,
 the Thunderbolt had been running for a few months, while the LTE-Lite had
 been running for a week or so.  Antennas were sitting on the window ledge
 of a west-facing window, so relatively poor sky coverage.  I connected the
 PPS outputs from the two GPSDOs to two channels of a digital scope and left
 it running in accumulate mode.  A couple of the resulting displays are
 attached below (I hope).  Yellow trace is the Thunderbolt PPS, also the
 trigger source.  The LTE-Lite is the cyan trace.  Each image shows signals
 accumulated over a period of about 8-12 hours.
 
 As you can see, the relative timing of the two 1 Hz signals wanders by
 about +- 100 ns around a midpoint value, but at this midpoint the LTE-Lite
 is around 50 ns later that the Thunderbolt.  (I call it a midpoint
 because it's judged by eye as halfway between the two recorded extremes.  I
 don't have a record of the individual measurements, so I can't calculate
 mean or median).  The Thunderbolt's antenna cable is perhaps 10 feet
 shorter than the LTE-Lite's, so that accounts for ~15 ns (Thunderbolt
 antennas compensation is set to zero).
 
 So, at my house, the LTE-Lite is about 50 ns late (or the TB is 50 ns
 early).  That's one cycle of the LTE-Lite 20 MHz TCXO - coincidence?
 []
 - Dave
 ===
 
 Dave,
 
 My comparison is against a Rapco 1904M, which is another GPSDO.  That does 
 agree on a causal measurement with a number of simple GPS/PPS units I have. A 
 u-blox LEA-6T shows about 80 ns later than the 1904M, and a u-blox NEO-6M 
 between 50 ns early and 200 ns late, both after being on for just a few 
 minutes, and with no special care in antenna placing.
 
 Do you think that your measurement (~35 ns offset) is consistent with the 
 LTE-Lite specification:
 
 1 PPS Timing Accuracy from GPS receiver
 8ns to UTC RMS (1-Sigma) GPS Locked
 
 and the specification of the Thunderbolt?
 
 Cheers,
 David
 -- 
 SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
 Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
 Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk 
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

HI

At a 1 second gate, your 5335 is good to about 1 ppb. (1x10^-9). A TCXO based 
GPSDO should be good to 10X that level. An OCXO based unit should be good to 
100X that level.  If you extend the counter’s gate time, the 5335 will overflow 
fairly quickly. Up to the point it does, it’s accuracy will improve directly 
with the gate time. Once it overflows, you can correct the result, but it is 
messy. 

Bob

 On Dec 8, 2014, at 2:07 PM, Byron Hayes Jr bha...@earthlink.net wrote:
 
 Time-Nuts Group,
 
 I thought some of you might be interested in my experience with the 10MHz 
 LTE-Lite.
 
 The 10MHz LTE-Lite arrived about a week ago.  I was not ready to make a 
 permanent installation, I wanted it portable and I wanted to get started 
 quickly.  I am hobbyist interested mainly in the HF spectrum.  So I decided 
 to operate the LTE-Lite inside the Priority Mail box, which was pretty much 
 intact.  I cut a 5 X 8 piece of corrugated cardboard, mounted the unit on 
 it with two doublestick pads, and put the cardboard with the unit into the 
 Priority Mail box.  I cut a hole in the top of the box so I could see the 
 LEDs, and cut three small holes in the side, one for the USB cable, one for 
 the antenna wire and one for the 10 MHz output.  I attached the USB cable, 
 antenna wire and 10 MHz output cable to the unit and ran them out of the box 
 through the holes.  I had an operating Lenovo X220 Windows 7 computer near to 
 the box, so I plugged the USB cable into the computer (I did not try to get 
 or use any software on the computer to decipher any messages from the 
 LTE-Lite).  I was in a
 n upstairs North facing bedroom (in the Los Angeles area) so I put the antenna 
on a nearby windowsill.  I hooked the 10MHz output to the channel 1 (Hi Z) 
input of my Tektronix 222A osciloscope, with the trigger on channel 1.
 
 When power was applied through the USB line, the LEDs seemed to light 
 normally.  Within a couple of hours the lock LED was on, but the oscilloscope 
 was showing noise, not a meaningful output.  I let the whole thing sit 
 overnight, and the next day an apparent 10 MHz trace was on the screen.  It 
 was not a sine wave, and not a square wave, but something in between.
 
 I had a small Rb unit, an Efratom 10 MHz FRS-C built into a TM-500 plug-in.  
 I set that up and let it warm up and lock.  I connected the Rb output to 
 channel 2 of the 222A and got that trace on the screen.  It was a sine wave 
 basically in lock step with the LTE-Lite trace.  Over a few hours one could 
 see slight relative movement, but very slight.  What next?
 
 I had a couple of HP 5300 series frequency counters, one a 5300B display with 
 Option 1 (Hi-Stability time base) and a 5308B lower unit, and the other a 
 plain 5300B display with a 5303B Option 1 (Hi-Stability time base) lower 
 unit.  I give both time to warm up.  I put a T in the LTE-Lite output line 
 and another T in the Rb output line, and connected coax from the Ts to the 
 HiZ input of each frequency counter.  After they settled down, the counter 
 connected to the LTE-Lite read 1008 and the counter connected to the Rb 
 read 1002.  So, after a while, I reversed the leads to the counters, and 
 the counter connected to the LTE-Lite read 1002 and the one conntected to 
 the Rb read 1008.  Those readings have been consistent for several days.  
 That indicated to me that the LTE-Lite and the Rb were both outputing 
 essentially the same frequency, but the counters were a bit off (I had never 
 calibrated these counters, since I wasn't sure of the accuracy of the Rb 
 unit).  But, 
 I felt like the proverbial man with two watches.
 
 So, I brought out Big Gonzo, a HP 5335A counter with Option 010 
 (Hi-Stability time base) I purchased on eBay about six months ago but had 
 never fired up.  It came up OK and I hooked it to the LTE-Lite output.  It 
 initially read 1028, but I gave it a couple of hours to warm up the 
 oscillator oven and stabilize.  By then, the reading had settled to 10 000 
 000.  Now I switched cables and hooked the Rb to the 5335A, and it read 10 
 000 000.  I hooked the LTE-Lite to channel A of the 5335A and the Rb to 
 channel B of the 5335A, and set the counter to ratio.  When it settled, the 
 counter read 1.000 000 indicating that the two outputs were the same 
 frequency, at least to six decimals.  Apparently the 5335A is right on.
 
 I conclude that both the LTE-Lite and the Rb are outputting a 1000 MHz 
 signal.  I'm not sure of the accuracy beyond that.  They are probably both 
 accurate enough for my purposes for calibrating other test equipment, 
 receivers and transmitters operating in the HF spectrum.
 
 I would be interested in any comments or suggestions from other list members.
 
 Byron WA6ATN  ___
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 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions

Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-12-08 Thread Keith Loiselle

Enabling MEAN with 100 pts under Statistics should give an additional digit
but will take a few minutes for a reading with longer gate times.

Keith


Keith

On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 3:07 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:

 HI

 At a 1 second gate, your 5335 is good to about 1 ppb. (1x10^-9). A TCXO
 based GPSDO should be good to 10X that level. An OCXO based unit should be
 good to 100X that level.  If you extend the counter’s gate time, the 5335
 will overflow fairly quickly. Up to the point it does, it’s accuracy will
 improve directly with the gate time. Once it overflows, you can correct the
 result, but it is messy.

 Bob

  On Dec 8, 2014, at 2:07 PM, Byron Hayes Jr bha...@earthlink.net wrote:
 
  Time-Nuts Group,
 
  I thought some of you might be interested in my experience with the
 10MHz LTE-Lite.
 
  The 10MHz LTE-Lite arrived about a week ago.  I was not ready to make a
 permanent installation, I wanted it portable and I wanted to get started
 quickly.  I am hobbyist interested mainly in the HF spectrum.  So I decided
 to operate the LTE-Lite inside the Priority Mail box, which was pretty much
 intact.  I cut a 5 X 8 piece of corrugated cardboard, mounted the unit on
 it with two doublestick pads, and put the cardboard with the unit into the
 Priority Mail box.  I cut a hole in the top of the box so I could see the
 LEDs, and cut three small holes in the side, one for the USB cable, one for
 the antenna wire and one for the 10 MHz output.  I attached the USB cable,
 antenna wire and 10 MHz output cable to the unit and ran them out of the
 box through the holes.  I had an operating Lenovo X220 Windows 7 computer
 near to the box, so I plugged the USB cable into the computer (I did not
 try to get or use any software on the computer to decipher any messages
 from the LTE-Lite).  I was in a
  n upstairs North facing bedroom (in the Los Angeles area) so I put the
 antenna on a nearby windowsill.  I hooked the 10MHz output to the channel 1
 (Hi Z) input of my Tektronix 222A osciloscope, with the trigger on channel
 1.
 
  When power was applied through the USB line, the LEDs seemed to light
 normally.  Within a couple of hours the lock LED was on, but the
 oscilloscope was showing noise, not a meaningful output.  I let the whole
 thing sit overnight, and the next day an apparent 10 MHz trace was on the
 screen.  It was not a sine wave, and not a square wave, but something in
 between.
 
  I had a small Rb unit, an Efratom 10 MHz FRS-C built into a TM-500
 plug-in.  I set that up and let it warm up and lock.  I connected the Rb
 output to channel 2 of the 222A and got that trace on the screen.  It was a
 sine wave basically in lock step with the LTE-Lite trace.  Over a few hours
 one could see slight relative movement, but very slight.  What next?
 
  I had a couple of HP 5300 series frequency counters, one a 5300B display
 with Option 1 (Hi-Stability time base) and a 5308B lower unit, and the
 other a plain 5300B display with a 5303B Option 1 (Hi-Stability time base)
 lower unit.  I give both time to warm up.  I put a T in the LTE-Lite
 output line and another T in the Rb output line, and connected coax from
 the Ts to the HiZ input of each frequency counter.  After they settled
 down, the counter connected to the LTE-Lite read 1008 and the counter
 connected to the Rb read 1002.  So, after a while, I reversed the leads
 to the counters, and the counter connected to the LTE-Lite read 1002
 and the one conntected to the Rb read 1008.  Those readings have been
 consistent for several days.  That indicated to me that the LTE-Lite and
 the Rb were both outputing essentially the same frequency, but the counters
 were a bit off (I had never calibrated these counters, since I wasn't sure
 of the accuracy of the Rb unit).  But,
  I felt like the proverbial man with two watches.
 
  So, I brought out Big Gonzo, a HP 5335A counter with Option 010
 (Hi-Stability time base) I purchased on eBay about six months ago but had
 never fired up.  It came up OK and I hooked it to the LTE-Lite output.  It
 initially read 1028, but I gave it a couple of hours to warm up the
 oscillator oven and stabilize.  By then, the reading had settled to 10 000
 000.  Now I switched cables and hooked the Rb to the 5335A, and it read 10
 000 000.  I hooked the LTE-Lite to channel A of the 5335A and the Rb to
 channel B of the 5335A, and set the counter to ratio.  When it settled,
 the counter read 1.000 000 indicating that the two outputs were the same
 frequency, at least to six decimals.  Apparently the 5335A is right on.
 
  I conclude that both the LTE-Lite and the Rb are outputting a 1000
 MHz signal.  I'm not sure of the accuracy beyond that.  They are probably
 both accurate enough for my purposes for calibrating other test equipment,
 receivers and transmitters operating in the HF spectrum.
 
  I would be interested in any comments or suggestions from other list
 members.
 
  Byron WA6ATN

Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-12-08 Thread Keith Loiselle

Said asked me to forward this:

Hello Orin,

very nice job on the buffer design!

This confirms that minor changes in power consumption due to load changes
on the board affect oscillator stability. The 10MHz oscillator itself is
rated at up to +/-5ppb for load-induced changes, so that is very
significant considering that we are trying to stabilize it to 0.1ppb and
better. It also confirms that the cables on the 10MHz DIP-14 version should
be kept as short as possible.

The 20MHz units have a buffer behind the oscillator of course, so should
have less load-change sensitivity, but it will be there - no doubt.

Bye,
Said


Keith

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 10:32 PM, Orin Eman orin.e...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Said,

 It's a little while since you sent this, but I just finished some testing
 with the LTE Lite.

 I already had a Trimble Thunderbolt and also have an HP 5335A with OCXO.
 The 5335A has shown the Trimble O/P 10 MHz +/- 0.03 Hz for the last few
 years (displayed frequency on the 5335A has drifted down by about 0.04 Hz).

 So, I set up the LTE Lite (10MHz TCXO version) with its antenna about 6'
 from that used by the Trimble.  After letting it settle down, it looked
 good.  I was using the high impedance input of the 5335A (aside: if set for
 DC coupling, the 5335A would read 20MHz from the ringing.  I only have
 about 18 of RG-188 after the pigtail supplied with the LTE Lite).

 Today, I made up a buffer using a 74AC04 and LT1763-3.3 LDO regulator
 supplied with 5V from a bench supply.  Two inverters each into 100 ohms
 then 0.1uF DC block as suggested.  I connected this to the LTE Lite instead
 of directly to the 5335A with the 5335A set to 50 ohms and the 5335A read
 0.5Hz low!  It settled down to the original reading after a while.  I
 looked at the signal from the buffer using a 50 ohm pass-through terminator
 and the signal looked nice and square.

 A few hours later I went back and it still looked good.  I decided to look
 at the input to the buffer on a TDS-210 'scope with a 10X probe.  There is
 now perhaps 6 of coax to the buffer which has 1 Mohm in parallel.  The
 signal is about 5V pk-pk, but the ringing dies down quickly.  BUT, the
 5335A was displaying a few hundredths of a Hz higher than 10MHz, whereas it
 was a few hundredths below before!  When I removed the probe, it went a few
 hundredths of a Hz below where it was originally and gradually recovered.

 So, in addition to temperature, the LTE-Lite eval board with 10MHz TCXO
 appears to be sensitive to load as well as temperature, such that just a
 10X oscilloscope probe will affect the output.  Normally, you probably
 wouldn't notice this, but I switched the loads while it was running.
 Certainly, once put in an enclosure, the 74AC04 buffer would be permanently
 connected and I'd assume any effect noticed above would be during the
 warmup of the LTE-Lite and wouldn't really be noticed.

 I'm sure I forgot some detail or other in the above description.  I
 couldn't find a DIP 74AC04 so I made a PCB for an SMT 784AC04 using MG
 Chemicals 1/32 positive-resist PCB and Eagle for the design; 1206 100 ohm
 series resistors and 1206 0.1uF ceramic DC blocking capacitors.  I laid it
 out for SMA sockets that you could wire RG-316 or similar directly instead.
 I used a 6 MMCX to RG-316 pigtail from the LTE-Lite to my buffer.  I
 mounted one SMA socket on the outputs which is what I used to connect to
 the HP 5335A.  The LT1763 has a 1uF 35V tantalum on the input and 10 uF 30V
 tantalum on the output (they are what I had in the parts bin, or I'd have
 used *smaller* ceramic parts).  I tweaked the design for hand soldering
 with no solder mask (i.e. 20 mil clearances and top layer restrictions
 around most components to keep the ground fill away).

 Orin.

 On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Said Jackson via time-nuts 
 time-nuts@febo.com wrote:

  Hi Paul, Jim, David,
 
  Let me address all your emails:
 
  Glad you got your boards. $50 in overseas additional charges from your
  post office sucks!
 
  Some hints for experimenting from what I have learned:
 
  You definitely want to build a 50 Ohms buffer for the 10MHz boards and
 the
  synthesized outputs on all boards; on the 20MHz boards on the Tcxo output
  it's optional.
 
  The biggest problem is building a suitable 3.3V or 5V power supply. I
  built a buffer using two NC7SZ04 chips receiving the input in parallel
 with
  a 1M terminating resistor to ground. Then using a 100 Ohms series
 resistor
  on both outputs to get ~55 Ohms equivalent impedance, and combining the
 two
  R's to drive the 50 Ohms inputs through a 100nF cap for DC blocking. You
  can use a 74AC04 just as well. I tried a standard high quality 3-pin
  regulator and got very bad AM noise modulation due to the large noise on
  the rail. Then I used a very low noise LDO from LT and that solved the
  problem and the output is now very clean and drives 50 Ohms inputs with
  ease.
 
  you can grab the very low noise 3.0V rail output

Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

Hi

On the 5335, the display changes a bit as you fiddle with the math. The actual 
resolution does not change. When you get an extra digit, it really does not 
step off in one count steps. 

Anything you do that gets you to a 10X longer gate time does add a “real” 
digit. Taking 10 back to back readings increases the display by about 1/3 of a 
digit (back to the square root N issue). 

Bob

 On Dec 8, 2014, at 6:09 PM, Keith Loiselle keith.loise...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Enabling MEAN with 100 pts under Statistics should give an additional digit
 but will take a few minutes for a reading with longer gate times.
 
 Keith
 
 
 Keith
 
 On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 3:07 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:
 
 HI
 
 At a 1 second gate, your 5335 is good to about 1 ppb. (1x10^-9). A TCXO
 based GPSDO should be good to 10X that level. An OCXO based unit should be
 good to 100X that level.  If you extend the counter’s gate time, the 5335
 will overflow fairly quickly. Up to the point it does, it’s accuracy will
 improve directly with the gate time. Once it overflows, you can correct the
 result, but it is messy.
 
 Bob
 
 On Dec 8, 2014, at 2:07 PM, Byron Hayes Jr bha...@earthlink.net wrote:
 
 Time-Nuts Group,
 
 I thought some of you might be interested in my experience with the
 10MHz LTE-Lite.
 
 The 10MHz LTE-Lite arrived about a week ago.  I was not ready to make a
 permanent installation, I wanted it portable and I wanted to get started
 quickly.  I am hobbyist interested mainly in the HF spectrum.  So I decided
 to operate the LTE-Lite inside the Priority Mail box, which was pretty much
 intact.  I cut a 5 X 8 piece of corrugated cardboard, mounted the unit on
 it with two doublestick pads, and put the cardboard with the unit into the
 Priority Mail box.  I cut a hole in the top of the box so I could see the
 LEDs, and cut three small holes in the side, one for the USB cable, one for
 the antenna wire and one for the 10 MHz output.  I attached the USB cable,
 antenna wire and 10 MHz output cable to the unit and ran them out of the
 box through the holes.  I had an operating Lenovo X220 Windows 7 computer
 near to the box, so I plugged the USB cable into the computer (I did not
 try to get or use any software on the computer to decipher any messages
 from the LTE-Lite).  I was in a
 n upstairs North facing bedroom (in the Los Angeles area) so I put the
 antenna on a nearby windowsill.  I hooked the 10MHz output to the channel 1
 (Hi Z) input of my Tektronix 222A osciloscope, with the trigger on channel
 1.
 
 When power was applied through the USB line, the LEDs seemed to light
 normally.  Within a couple of hours the lock LED was on, but the
 oscilloscope was showing noise, not a meaningful output.  I let the whole
 thing sit overnight, and the next day an apparent 10 MHz trace was on the
 screen.  It was not a sine wave, and not a square wave, but something in
 between.
 
 I had a small Rb unit, an Efratom 10 MHz FRS-C built into a TM-500
 plug-in.  I set that up and let it warm up and lock.  I connected the Rb
 output to channel 2 of the 222A and got that trace on the screen.  It was a
 sine wave basically in lock step with the LTE-Lite trace.  Over a few hours
 one could see slight relative movement, but very slight.  What next?
 
 I had a couple of HP 5300 series frequency counters, one a 5300B display
 with Option 1 (Hi-Stability time base) and a 5308B lower unit, and the
 other a plain 5300B display with a 5303B Option 1 (Hi-Stability time base)
 lower unit.  I give both time to warm up.  I put a T in the LTE-Lite
 output line and another T in the Rb output line, and connected coax from
 the Ts to the HiZ input of each frequency counter.  After they settled
 down, the counter connected to the LTE-Lite read 1008 and the counter
 connected to the Rb read 1002.  So, after a while, I reversed the leads
 to the counters, and the counter connected to the LTE-Lite read 1002
 and the one conntected to the Rb read 1008.  Those readings have been
 consistent for several days.  That indicated to me that the LTE-Lite and
 the Rb were both outputing essentially the same frequency, but the counters
 were a bit off (I had never calibrated these counters, since I wasn't sure
 of the accuracy of the Rb unit).  But,
 I felt like the proverbial man with two watches.
 
 So, I brought out Big Gonzo, a HP 5335A counter with Option 010
 (Hi-Stability time base) I purchased on eBay about six months ago but had
 never fired up.  It came up OK and I hooked it to the LTE-Lite output.  It
 initially read 1028, but I gave it a couple of hours to warm up the
 oscillator oven and stabilize.  By then, the reading had settled to 10 000
 000.  Now I switched cables and hooked the Rb to the 5335A, and it read 10
 000 000.  I hooked the LTE-Lite to channel A of the 5335A and the Rb to
 channel B of the 5335A, and set the counter to ratio.  When it settled,
 the counter read 1.000 000 indicating that the two outputs were the

Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-12-07 Thread Bob Camp

Hi

All GPSDO’s will have issues if you poke directly into them. The whole idea is 
to buffer the output(s) and keep them isolated from the outside world. That way 
the GPS can track out any errors and correct them. Any static error you see 
will be zeroed out if it has been there for long enough for the GPS to act on. 
Transients of any sort (load / voltage / temperature / gravity …) that are 
faster than the loop will show up on the output.

Bob


 On Dec 7, 2014, at 1:32 AM, Orin Eman orin.e...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Hi Said,
 
 It's a little while since you sent this, but I just finished some testing
 with the LTE Lite.
 
 I already had a Trimble Thunderbolt and also have an HP 5335A with OCXO.
 The 5335A has shown the Trimble O/P 10 MHz +/- 0.03 Hz for the last few
 years (displayed frequency on the 5335A has drifted down by about 0.04 Hz).
 
 So, I set up the LTE Lite (10MHz TCXO version) with its antenna about 6'
 from that used by the Trimble.  After letting it settle down, it looked
 good.  I was using the high impedance input of the 5335A (aside: if set for
 DC coupling, the 5335A would read 20MHz from the ringing.  I only have
 about 18 of RG-188 after the pigtail supplied with the LTE Lite).
 
 Today, I made up a buffer using a 74AC04 and LT1763-3.3 LDO regulator
 supplied with 5V from a bench supply.  Two inverters each into 100 ohms
 then 0.1uF DC block as suggested.  I connected this to the LTE Lite instead
 of directly to the 5335A with the 5335A set to 50 ohms and the 5335A read
 0.5Hz low!  It settled down to the original reading after a while.  I
 looked at the signal from the buffer using a 50 ohm pass-through terminator
 and the signal looked nice and square.
 
 A few hours later I went back and it still looked good.  I decided to look
 at the input to the buffer on a TDS-210 'scope with a 10X probe.  There is
 now perhaps 6 of coax to the buffer which has 1 Mohm in parallel.  The
 signal is about 5V pk-pk, but the ringing dies down quickly.  BUT, the
 5335A was displaying a few hundredths of a Hz higher than 10MHz, whereas it
 was a few hundredths below before!  When I removed the probe, it went a few
 hundredths of a Hz below where it was originally and gradually recovered.
 
 So, in addition to temperature, the LTE-Lite eval board with 10MHz TCXO
 appears to be sensitive to load as well as temperature, such that just a
 10X oscilloscope probe will affect the output.  Normally, you probably
 wouldn't notice this, but I switched the loads while it was running.
 Certainly, once put in an enclosure, the 74AC04 buffer would be permanently
 connected and I'd assume any effect noticed above would be during the
 warmup of the LTE-Lite and wouldn't really be noticed.
 
 I'm sure I forgot some detail or other in the above description.  I
 couldn't find a DIP 74AC04 so I made a PCB for an SMT 784AC04 using MG
 Chemicals 1/32 positive-resist PCB and Eagle for the design; 1206 100 ohm
 series resistors and 1206 0.1uF ceramic DC blocking capacitors.  I laid it
 out for SMA sockets that you could wire RG-316 or similar directly instead.
 I used a 6 MMCX to RG-316 pigtail from the LTE-Lite to my buffer.  I
 mounted one SMA socket on the outputs which is what I used to connect to
 the HP 5335A.  The LT1763 has a 1uF 35V tantalum on the input and 10 uF 30V
 tantalum on the output (they are what I had in the parts bin, or I'd have
 used *smaller* ceramic parts).  I tweaked the design for hand soldering
 with no solder mask (i.e. 20 mil clearances and top layer restrictions
 around most components to keep the ground fill away).
 
 Orin.
 
 On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Said Jackson via time-nuts 
 time-nuts@febo.com wrote:
 
 Hi Paul, Jim, David,
 
 Let me address all your emails:
 
 Glad you got your boards. $50 in overseas additional charges from your
 post office sucks!
 
 Some hints for experimenting from what I have learned:
 
 You definitely want to build a 50 Ohms buffer for the 10MHz boards and the
 synthesized outputs on all boards; on the 20MHz boards on the Tcxo output
 it's optional.
 
 The biggest problem is building a suitable 3.3V or 5V power supply. I
 built a buffer using two NC7SZ04 chips receiving the input in parallel with
 a 1M terminating resistor to ground. Then using a 100 Ohms series resistor
 on both outputs to get ~55 Ohms equivalent impedance, and combining the two
 R's to drive the 50 Ohms inputs through a 100nF cap for DC blocking. You
 can use a 74AC04 just as well. I tried a standard high quality 3-pin
 regulator and got very bad AM noise modulation due to the large noise on
 the rail. Then I used a very low noise LDO from LT and that solved the
 problem and the output is now very clean and drives 50 Ohms inputs with
 ease.
 
 you can grab the very low noise 3.0V rail output from the eval board to
 power the buffers (see the schematics in the user manual) but loading that
 creates a bit of heat on the LTE-Lite which will affect stability a tiny
 bit.
 
 On the power

Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-12-06 Thread Orin Eman

Hi Said,

It's a little while since you sent this, but I just finished some testing
with the LTE Lite.

I already had a Trimble Thunderbolt and also have an HP 5335A with OCXO.
The 5335A has shown the Trimble O/P 10 MHz +/- 0.03 Hz for the last few
years (displayed frequency on the 5335A has drifted down by about 0.04 Hz).

So, I set up the LTE Lite (10MHz TCXO version) with its antenna about 6'
from that used by the Trimble.  After letting it settle down, it looked
good.  I was using the high impedance input of the 5335A (aside: if set for
DC coupling, the 5335A would read 20MHz from the ringing.  I only have
about 18 of RG-188 after the pigtail supplied with the LTE Lite).

Today, I made up a buffer using a 74AC04 and LT1763-3.3 LDO regulator
supplied with 5V from a bench supply.  Two inverters each into 100 ohms
then 0.1uF DC block as suggested.  I connected this to the LTE Lite instead
of directly to the 5335A with the 5335A set to 50 ohms and the 5335A read
0.5Hz low!  It settled down to the original reading after a while.  I
looked at the signal from the buffer using a 50 ohm pass-through terminator
and the signal looked nice and square.

A few hours later I went back and it still looked good.  I decided to look
at the input to the buffer on a TDS-210 'scope with a 10X probe.  There is
now perhaps 6 of coax to the buffer which has 1 Mohm in parallel.  The
signal is about 5V pk-pk, but the ringing dies down quickly.  BUT, the
5335A was displaying a few hundredths of a Hz higher than 10MHz, whereas it
was a few hundredths below before!  When I removed the probe, it went a few
hundredths of a Hz below where it was originally and gradually recovered.

So, in addition to temperature, the LTE-Lite eval board with 10MHz TCXO
appears to be sensitive to load as well as temperature, such that just a
10X oscilloscope probe will affect the output.  Normally, you probably
wouldn't notice this, but I switched the loads while it was running.
Certainly, once put in an enclosure, the 74AC04 buffer would be permanently
connected and I'd assume any effect noticed above would be during the
warmup of the LTE-Lite and wouldn't really be noticed.

I'm sure I forgot some detail or other in the above description.  I
couldn't find a DIP 74AC04 so I made a PCB for an SMT 784AC04 using MG
Chemicals 1/32 positive-resist PCB and Eagle for the design; 1206 100 ohm
series resistors and 1206 0.1uF ceramic DC blocking capacitors.  I laid it
out for SMA sockets that you could wire RG-316 or similar directly instead.
I used a 6 MMCX to RG-316 pigtail from the LTE-Lite to my buffer.  I
mounted one SMA socket on the outputs which is what I used to connect to
the HP 5335A.  The LT1763 has a 1uF 35V tantalum on the input and 10 uF 30V
tantalum on the output (they are what I had in the parts bin, or I'd have
used *smaller* ceramic parts).  I tweaked the design for hand soldering
with no solder mask (i.e. 20 mil clearances and top layer restrictions
around most components to keep the ground fill away).

Orin.

On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Said Jackson via time-nuts 
time-nuts@febo.com wrote:

 Hi Paul, Jim, David,

 Let me address all your emails:

 Glad you got your boards. $50 in overseas additional charges from your
 post office sucks!

 Some hints for experimenting from what I have learned:

 You definitely want to build a 50 Ohms buffer for the 10MHz boards and the
 synthesized outputs on all boards; on the 20MHz boards on the Tcxo output
 it's optional.

 The biggest problem is building a suitable 3.3V or 5V power supply. I
 built a buffer using two NC7SZ04 chips receiving the input in parallel with
 a 1M terminating resistor to ground. Then using a 100 Ohms series resistor
 on both outputs to get ~55 Ohms equivalent impedance, and combining the two
 R's to drive the 50 Ohms inputs through a 100nF cap for DC blocking. You
 can use a 74AC04 just as well. I tried a standard high quality 3-pin
 regulator and got very bad AM noise modulation due to the large noise on
 the rail. Then I used a very low noise LDO from LT and that solved the
 problem and the output is now very clean and drives 50 Ohms inputs with
 ease.

 you can grab the very low noise 3.0V rail output from the eval board to
 power the buffers (see the schematics in the user manual) but loading that
 creates a bit of heat on the LTE-Lite which will affect stability a tiny
 bit.

 On the power consumption, you can see we go through a linear regulator to
 get 3.3V from 5V USB/EXT power. This is very inefficient. For best power
 consumption you want to use a very high efficiency buck regulator to
 generate the 3.3V from your battery. This means you loose the USB interface
 though as that chip runs from 5V and has an internal LDO.

 On the zero Ohms R2/R3 resistors, check the schematics - these allow you
 to power the DIP-14 Tcxo from either the digital 3.3V rail, or the
 low-noise 3.0V rail (default). The software will auto-detect if you attach
 a 10MHz or 20MHz Tcxo, no

Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-11-22 Thread david

Said and List,

My 20Meg Lite arrived yesterday. It is a beautiful beast, and well made. It
was also well packaged, which was no bad thing because the box bore all the
signs of having been run over by the truck. A few times.
But it is working nicely (I think) and I'm looking forward to experimenting
with it.

The only down side was that the Mail made me collect it from my local
office, charged me an additional $50 at today's conversion rate to import
the board.

Regards

David GM8XBZ


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of S. Jackson
via time-nuts
Sent: 20 November 2014 20:33
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

Hello everyone,
 
after what must have been the longest thread in T-nuts history its  almost
all quiet today.

 snip

Also, after being in time nuts hands for almost a week I am surprised there
are very few mails, questions, or comments about the 20MHz boards,  and we
have received almost no feedback on Ebay :( I hope that is a good  sign.
 
Bye,
Said

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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-11-22 Thread Jim Sanford

Has anyone yet come up with a buffer circuit for the 1MOhm outputs to 
drive 50 Ohms?

73,
Jim
wb4...@amsast.org

On 11/22/2014 7:01 AM, david wrote:

Said and List,

My 20Meg Lite arrived yesterday. It is a beautiful beast, and well made. It
was also well packaged, which was no bad thing because the box bore all the
signs of having been run over by the truck. A few times.
But it is working nicely (I think) and I'm looking forward to experimenting
with it.

The only down side was that the Mail made me collect it from my local
office, charged me an additional $50 at today's conversion rate to import
the board.

Regards

David GM8XBZ


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of S. Jackson
via time-nuts
Sent: 20 November 2014 20:33
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

Hello everyone,
  
after what must have been the longest thread in T-nuts history its  almost

all quiet today.

  snip

Also, after being in time nuts hands for almost a week I am surprised there
are very few mails, questions, or comments about the 20MHz boards,  and we
have received almost no feedback on Ebay :( I hope that is a good  sign.
  
Bye,

Said

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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-11-22 Thread Jim Sanford


Said:
Just ordered a second 10 MHz board for my rover station
73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 11/20/2014 3:32 PM, S. Jackson via time-nuts wrote:

Hello everyone,
  
after what must have been the longest thread in T-nuts history its  almost

all quiet today. I am going to take advantage of that and  announce some
good news:
  
Its a miracle: the 10MHz DIP-14 TCXOs for the LTE-Lite came in weeks  ahead

of schedule from the factory! And they work very well.
  
We will thus be shipping out the 10MHz LTE-Lite eval boards in the  next

couple of working days. There are still a number left for sale on Ebay
(search for LTE Lite GPSDO), so if you were hesitant to get one due to the  
long
lead-time, then now is your chance.
  
Also, after being in time nuts hands for almost a week I am surprised

there are very few mails, questions, or comments about the 20MHz boards,  and we
have received almost no feedback on Ebay :( I hope that is a good  sign.
  
Bye,

Said



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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-11-22 Thread paul swed

Ok give it a week for the magic to wear off.Then its time to hack.
I am sort of headed into that mode.
The system draws what I would technically call squat for power. Hmm wonder
how thats measured VA watts??
Locks pretty darn fast and recovers pretty fast. But you do always go
through the survey. Not really a negative.
It does produce a relatively stable output. But you can see it slip as
compared to the likes of the Z3801 or 3811. This tends to be due to drafts.
Its quite sensitive.
So following best practices two thick socks are on top of it now.

So to the hacking/curiosity.
I will group my interests in several areas (No particular sequence);

   - A good enough reference to replace my cheap-y $25 Telco RB reference.
   - Adding the various buffers to have useful signals.
   - Trying to keep the support power consumption down to match the LTE.
   - The curiosity of adding a oven 10 Mhz oscillator. I have a PTI and
   10811
   - Battery back up a real question given the lockup time of the unit.


The buffering and dividing will come first and may have to be 74 HC or HCT
to get the 20 to 10 Mhz. Its unfortunate because 74 AC would allow
everything to run on 3.3V. May just wait and order some AC chips and do it
right.

Then LPF the output 10 Mhz to a sine wave and hit a transistor buffer.
The buffer will be the biggest power pig of all. They always are.

I always seem to need various ticks. The 1 PPS will be adapted to RS232 and
RS 485 using buffers/converters. Simple 1 chip wonders.
The output only data feed could also be RS232 and there is a spare
transmitter in the max chip I would use. These can be wired on a board or
for almost nothing ordered from ebay these days with shipping delays.

The oven is really a curiosity. I have a 20 MHz unit. I think that by
changing the 3 zero ohm Rs on the system I can shift to 10 Mhz and directly
replace the 20 Mhz TCO. If thats not true then the typical oven has to be
doubled to 20 and then converted to a clean 3V digital signal. This thread
already has some hints on the EFC voltage.

Lastly Battery backup. By the time I get to here I will have decided if its
even worth the effort. Batteries are a pain in the  But is nice in that
the system just runs. Having an oven absolutely takes a 1-2 watt solution
to a 30 watt total solution. Essentially what my RB consumes today when you
look at the wasted energy in the transformers and such. I am using an HP
battery system that drove RB and CS references circa 1980. So not very
efficient. But sure does work.

Someplace sooner then later a box for it all. Drafts do upset the TCXO. It
may need to be a highly customized temporary box. These boxes are available
at most supermarkets. Ask for cardboard.

So there you have it my 10 cents worth of musings on the direction I am
headed.
Reagards
Paul
WB8TSL











On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 10:37 AM, Jim Sanford wb4...@wb4gcs.org wrote:

 Said:
 Just ordered a second 10 MHz board for my rover station
 73,
 Jim
 wb4...@amsat.org


 On 11/20/2014 3:32 PM, S. Jackson via time-nuts wrote:

 Hello everyone,
   after what must have been the longest thread in T-nuts history its
 almost
 all quiet today. I am going to take advantage of that and  announce some
 good news:
   Its a miracle: the 10MHz DIP-14 TCXOs for the LTE-Lite came in weeks
 ahead
 of schedule from the factory! And they work very well.
   We will thus be shipping out the 10MHz LTE-Lite eval boards in the  next
 couple of working days. There are still a number left for sale on Ebay
 (search for LTE Lite GPSDO), so if you were hesitant to get one due to
 the  long
 lead-time, then now is your chance.
   Also, after being in time nuts hands for almost a week I am surprised
 there are very few mails, questions, or comments about the 20MHz boards,
 and we
 have received almost no feedback on Ebay :( I hope that is a good  sign.
   Bye,
 Said



 ___
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 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
 mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-11-22 Thread Said Jackson via time-nuts

Hi Paul, Jim, David,

Let me address all your emails:

Glad you got your boards. $50 in overseas additional charges from your post 
office sucks!

Some hints for experimenting from what I have learned:

You definitely want to build a 50 Ohms buffer for the 10MHz boards and the 
synthesized outputs on all boards; on the 20MHz boards on the Tcxo output it's 
optional.

The biggest problem is building a suitable 3.3V or 5V power supply. I built a 
buffer using two NC7SZ04 chips receiving the input in parallel with a 1M 
terminating resistor to ground. Then using a 100 Ohms series resistor on both 
outputs to get ~55 Ohms equivalent impedance, and combining the two R's to 
drive the 50 Ohms inputs through a 100nF cap for DC blocking. You can use a 
74AC04 just as well. I tried a standard high quality 3-pin regulator and got 
very bad AM noise modulation due to the large noise on the rail. Then I used a 
very low noise LDO from LT and that solved the problem and the output is now 
very clean and drives 50 Ohms inputs with ease.

you can grab the very low noise 3.0V rail output from the eval board to power 
the buffers (see the schematics in the user manual) but loading that creates a 
bit of heat on the LTE-Lite which will affect stability a tiny bit.

On the power consumption, you can see we go through a linear regulator to get 
3.3V from 5V USB/EXT power. This is very inefficient. For best power 
consumption you want to use a very high efficiency buck regulator to generate 
the 3.3V from your battery. This means you loose the USB interface though as 
that chip runs from 5V and has an internal LDO.

On the zero Ohms R2/R3 resistors, check the schematics - these allow you to 
power the DIP-14 Tcxo from either the digital 3.3V rail, or the low-noise 3.0V 
rail (default). The software will auto-detect if you attach a 10MHz or 20MHz 
Tcxo, no configuration is needed.

On drafts, yes that is the number one cause of phase drifts. We put the board 
into an ESD bag, and put some thin ESD padding material on top. That prevents 
drafts, and following the EFC curve you can see the unit still reacts slowly to 
the AC or heaters kicking on. That's normal, and that's why we discipline to 
GPS.. In our setup the units have typically less than 20ns standard deviation 
on the RF and 1PPS outputs. The raw gps 1PPS output on the header is even 
better on average, but has the sawooth error on it. The sawtooth error 
correction value is in the PSTI NMEA message for those that want to use the raw 
gps 1PPS output and correct the sawtooth externally. This chip has a very high 
rate internal system frequency that results in very low residual sawtooth error.

On the auto survey process - this is disabled when using 3D mobile mode by 
shorting pins 1 and 3 on the 3-pin header as described in the read me first. 
But be aware that changing that header with power applied results in flash 
memory corruption, and thus a very bad day. That's why we did not solder the 
header - to avoid any accidents..

Bye,
Said





Sent from my iPad

On Nov 22, 2014, at 8:42, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Ok give it a week for the magic to wear off.Then its time to hack.
 I am sort of headed into that mode.
 The system draws what I would technically call squat for power. Hmm wonder
 how thats measured VA watts??
 Locks pretty darn fast and recovers pretty fast. But you do always go
 through the survey. Not really a negative.
 It does produce a relatively stable output. But you can see it slip as
 compared to the likes of the Z3801 or 3811. This tends to be due to drafts.
 Its quite sensitive.
 So following best practices two thick socks are on top of it now.
 
 So to the hacking/curiosity.
 I will group my interests in several areas (No particular sequence);
 
   - A good enough reference to replace my cheap-y $25 Telco RB reference.
   - Adding the various buffers to have useful signals.
   - Trying to keep the support power consumption down to match the LTE.
   - The curiosity of adding a oven 10 Mhz oscillator. I have a PTI and
   10811
   - Battery back up a real question given the lockup time of the unit.
 
 
 The buffering and dividing will come first and may have to be 74 HC or HCT
 to get the 20 to 10 Mhz. Its unfortunate because 74 AC would allow
 everything to run on 3.3V. May just wait and order some AC chips and do it
 right.
 
 Then LPF the output 10 Mhz to a sine wave and hit a transistor buffer.
 The buffer will be the biggest power pig of all. They always are.
 
 I always seem to need various ticks. The 1 PPS will be adapted to RS232 and
 RS 485 using buffers/converters. Simple 1 chip wonders.
 The output only data feed could also be RS232 and there is a spare
 transmitter in the max chip I would use. These can be wired on a board or
 for almost nothing ordered from ebay these days with shipping delays.
 
 The oven is really a curiosity. I have a 20 MHz unit. I think that by
 changing the 3 zero ohm Rs on the system I can shift to

Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-11-21 Thread Jim Sanford


what is the ublox application

Thanks,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 11/20/2014 6:17 PM, S. Jackson via time-nuts wrote:

Paul,
  
if you set the serial switch on the LTE-Lite over to the NMEA side then the

  uBlox application will give you all sorts of bar graphs for signal
strengths,  position, time, etc as it decodes all the NMEA messages.
  
Alex,
  
the TSC5125A user manual contains a description of the theory in its

Appendix B. Its probably available on the Microsemi website as I don't think its
confidential.
  
Also, I think John's TimePod user manual probably has a description of it.

Otherwise I remember Sam Stein (who is behind the TSC units) had some PTTI
or  similar presentations discussing the technology, but I don't know where
those  could be downloaded.
  
Bye,

Said
  
  
In a message dated 11/20/2014 14:34:32 Pacific Standard Time,

a...@pcscons.com writes:



Hi Said,
do you have any information about how that  TimePod 5330A works any
principal  description?
73
KJ6UHN
Alex

On 11/20/2014 2:08 PM, S. Jackson  via time-nuts wrote:

Hello Mike,
   
attached  is a 10MHz DIP-14 TCXO Phase Noise plot from a random  LTE-Lite

  unit.
   
I had sent out a 20MHz typical phase noise  plot some weeks ago, and

comparing the two they are almost perfectly  6dB apart as would be

expected from

the 20log(n/m) relationship. There  are variations from unit to unit of
course,  but it does not seem  like one version of the board or the other

has

advantages  in  terms of phase noise.
   
I had also sent out a  superimposed plot of the 20MHz and the divide-by-2

10MHz output of the  same board at that time, and again the relationship

was

almost  perfectly 6dB lower at 10MHz versus 20MHz.
   
While  phase noise follows theory, it does seem that the DIP14 metal

shield

  has a beneficial effect on the ADEV stability though. The plots we are
  getting  are pretty darn good, and I want to test more boards before I

post any

ADEV,  because its quite a bit better than our  specification and I want

to

make sure  its  real.
   
The 10MHz DIP-14 boards do not have an  isolating buffer like the 20MHz

boards do, on these the TCXO drives  the output directly, so one must be

careful

   to set the  equipment to 1M Ohms input impedance or use a buffer
externally,   which is what we did to measure the attached PN plot.

Bye,

Said




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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-11-21 Thread Mike Seguin


U-Center vers 8.12

http://www.u-blox.com/en/evaluation-tools-a-software/u-center/u-center.html

Mike

---
73,
Mike, N1JEZ
A closed mouth gathers no feet

On 2014-11-21 18:54, Jim Sanford wrote:

what is the ublox application

Thanks,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 11/20/2014 6:17 PM, S. Jackson via time-nuts wrote:

Paul,
  if you set the serial switch on the LTE-Lite over to the NMEA side 
then the

  uBlox application will give you all sorts of bar graphs for signal
strengths,  position, time, etc as it decodes all the NMEA messages.
  Alex,
  the TSC5125A user manual contains a description of the theory in its
Appendix B. Its probably available on the Microsemi website as I don't 
think its

confidential.
  Also, I think John's TimePod user manual probably has a description 
of it.
Otherwise I remember Sam Stein (who is behind the TSC units) had some 
PTTI
or  similar presentations discussing the technology, but I don't know 
where

those  could be downloaded.
  Bye,
Said
In a message dated 11/20/2014 14:34:32 Pacific Standard Time,
a...@pcscons.com writes:



Hi Said,
do you have any information about how that  TimePod 5330A works any
principal  description?
73
KJ6UHN
Alex

On 11/20/2014 2:08 PM, S. Jackson  via time-nuts wrote:

Hello Mike,
   attached  is a 10MHz DIP-14 TCXO Phase Noise plot from a random  
LTE-Lite

  unit.
   I had sent out a 20MHz typical phase noise  plot some weeks ago, 
and

comparing the two they are almost perfectly  6dB apart as would be

expected from
the 20log(n/m) relationship. There  are variations from unit to unit 
of
course,  but it does not seem  like one version of the board or the 
other

has

advantages  in  terms of phase noise.
   I had also sent out a  superimposed plot of the 20MHz and the 
divide-by-2
10MHz output of the  same board at that time, and again the 
relationship

was

almost  perfectly 6dB lower at 10MHz versus 20MHz.
   While  phase noise follows theory, it does seem that the DIP14 
metal

shield
  has a beneficial effect on the ADEV stability though. The plots we 
are
  getting  are pretty darn good, and I want to test more boards 
before I

post any
ADEV,  because its quite a bit better than our  specification and I 
want

to

make sure  its  real.
   The 10MHz DIP-14 boards do not have an  isolating buffer like the 
20MHz
boards do, on these the TCXO drives  the output directly, so one must 
be

careful

   to set the  equipment to 1M Ohms input impedance or use a buffer
externally,   which is what we did to measure the attached PN plot.
Bye,
Said



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[time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-11-20 Thread Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)

Hello everyone,
 
after what must have been the longest thread in T-nuts history its  almost 
all quiet today. I am going to take advantage of that and  announce some 
good news:
 
Its a miracle: the 10MHz DIP-14 TCXOs for the LTE-Lite came in weeks  ahead 
of schedule from the factory! And they work very well.
 
We will thus be shipping out the 10MHz LTE-Lite eval boards in the  next 
couple of working days. There are still a number left for sale on Ebay  
(search for LTE Lite GPSDO), so if you were hesitant to get one due to the  
long 
lead-time, then now is your chance.
 
Also, after being in time nuts hands for almost a week I am surprised  
there are very few mails, questions, or comments about the 20MHz boards,  and 
we 
have received almost no feedback on Ebay :( I hope that is a good  sign.
 
Bye,
Said



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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-11-20 Thread paul swed

Simply a reflection of our lazy ebay response.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 3:32 PM, S. Jackson via time-nuts 
time-nuts@febo.com wrote:

 Hello everyone,

 after what must have been the longest thread in T-nuts history its  almost
 all quiet today. I am going to take advantage of that and  announce some
 good news:

 Its a miracle: the 10MHz DIP-14 TCXOs for the LTE-Lite came in weeks  ahead
 of schedule from the factory! And they work very well.

 We will thus be shipping out the 10MHz LTE-Lite eval boards in the  next
 couple of working days. There are still a number left for sale on Ebay
 (search for LTE Lite GPSDO), so if you were hesitant to get one due to
 the  long
 lead-time, then now is your chance.

 Also, after being in time nuts hands for almost a week I am surprised
 there are very few mails, questions, or comments about the 20MHz boards,
 and we
 have received almost no feedback on Ebay :( I hope that is a good  sign.

 Bye,
 Said



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 To unsubscribe, go to
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

Said,
For a general purpose lab source, to feed things like

* 22 GHz spectrum analyzer
* 4.5 and 20 GHz signal generators
* 3 and 20 GHz VNAs
* 20 or 40 GHz frequency counter (I'm just looking to buy one)

what would you think is the best one to get - 10 or 20 MHz ? Or toss a coin?

Dave
Dr. David Kirkby Ph.D CEng MIET
Kirkby Microwave Ltd
Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Essex, CM3 6DT, UK.
Registered in England and Wales, company number 08914892.
http://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/
Tel: 07910 441670 / +44 7910 441670 (0900 to 2100 GMT only please)


On 20 November 2014 20:32, S. Jackson via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote:
 Hello everyone,

 after what must have been the longest thread in T-nuts history its  almost
 all quiet today. I am going to take advantage of that and  announce some
 good news:

 Its a miracle: the 10MHz DIP-14 TCXOs for the LTE-Lite came in weeks  ahead
 of schedule from the factory! And they work very well.

 We will thus be shipping out the 10MHz LTE-Lite eval boards in the  next
 couple of working days. There are still a number left for sale on Ebay
 (search for LTE Lite GPSDO), so if you were hesitant to get one due to the  
 long
 lead-time, then now is your chance.

 Also, after being in time nuts hands for almost a week I am surprised
 there are very few mails, questions, or comments about the 20MHz boards,  and 
 we
 have received almost no feedback on Ebay :( I hope that is a good  sign.

 Bye,
 Said



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 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

Hello Mike,
 
attached is a 10MHz DIP-14 TCXO Phase Noise plot from a random  LTE-Lite 
unit.
 
I had sent out a 20MHz typical phase noise plot some weeks ago, and  
comparing the two they are almost perfectly 6dB apart as would be expected from 
 
the 20log(n/m) relationship. There are variations from unit to unit of 
course,  but it does not seem like one version of the board or the other has 
advantages  in terms of phase noise.
 
I had also sent out a superimposed plot of the 20MHz and the divide-by-2  
10MHz output of the same board at that time, and again the relationship was  
almost perfectly 6dB lower at 10MHz versus 20MHz.
 
While phase noise follows theory, it does seem that the DIP14 metal shield  
has a beneficial effect on the ADEV stability though. The plots we are 
getting  are pretty darn good, and I want to test more boards before I post any 
ADEV,  because its quite a bit better than our specification and I want to 
make sure  its real.
 
The 10MHz DIP-14 boards do not have an isolating buffer like the 20MHz  
boards do, on these the TCXO drives the output directly, so one must be careful 
 to set the equipment to 1M Ohms input impedance or use a buffer 
externally,  which is what we did to measure the attached PN plot.
 
Bye,
Said
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 11/20/2014 13:48:22 Pacific Standard Time,  
n1...@burlingtontelecom.net writes:

Hi  Said,

Have you ever done a phase noise comparison of the 20 MHz TCXO  divided 
by 2 and the 10 MHz TCXO version?

My unit has only been  powered for a few hours for initial tests. I'm 
using the uBlox U-Center  software version 8.12 for monitoring the GPS.

Mike

On 11/20/2014  3:32 PM, S. Jackson via time-nuts wrote:
 Hello  everyone,

 after what must have been the longest thread in  T-nuts history its  
almost
 all quiet today. I am going to take  advantage of that and  announce some
 good news:

  Its a miracle: the 10MHz DIP-14 TCXOs for the LTE-Lite came in weeks   
ahead
 of schedule from the factory! And they work very  well.

 We will thus be shipping out the 10MHz LTE-Lite eval  boards in the  next
 couple of working days. There are still a  number left for sale on Ebay
 (search for LTE Lite GPSDO), so if you  were hesitant to get one due to 
the  long
 lead-time, then now is  your chance.

 Also, after being in time nuts hands for almost a  week I am surprised
 there are very few mails, questions, or comments  about the 20MHz boards, 
 and we
 have received almost no feedback  on Ebay :( I hope that is a good  sign.

 Bye,
  Said



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-- 

73,
Mike, N1JEZ
A closed  mouth gathers no feet

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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-11-20 Thread paul swed

David
I picked up the 20 and its working well. But the 10 saves you the divide by
2. I know thats quite minor.
Several comments.
Said mentioned that it should be in a bix to prevent air currents.
Absolutely. Though my fix is a pair of heavy socks. It tends to behave like
the 3801 and KS-36... But on occasion does swim slowly forward or backward,
not sure it actually swims past a total cycle. I am comapring that to the 2
X 10 MHz references from above. Granted the LTE is at 20 MHz.There does not
appear to be any constant drift.
My unit settled easily within 1 hour after the sock insulation. I may step
up to a cardboard box real soon now.
I am using Putty it works absolutely as well as anything else. Especially
since you can only listen to the LTE. Nothing else in the ublox works but
the debug screen.
Hope that helps.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 5:08 PM, S. Jackson via time-nuts 
time-nuts@febo.com wrote:

 Hello Mike,

 attached is a 10MHz DIP-14 TCXO Phase Noise plot from a random  LTE-Lite
 unit.

 I had sent out a 20MHz typical phase noise plot some weeks ago, and
 comparing the two they are almost perfectly 6dB apart as would be expected
 from
 the 20log(n/m) relationship. There are variations from unit to unit of
 course,  but it does not seem like one version of the board or the other
 has
 advantages  in terms of phase noise.

 I had also sent out a superimposed plot of the 20MHz and the divide-by-2
 10MHz output of the same board at that time, and again the relationship was
 almost perfectly 6dB lower at 10MHz versus 20MHz.

 While phase noise follows theory, it does seem that the DIP14 metal shield
 has a beneficial effect on the ADEV stability though. The plots we are
 getting  are pretty darn good, and I want to test more boards before I
 post any
 ADEV,  because its quite a bit better than our specification and I want to
 make sure  its real.

 The 10MHz DIP-14 boards do not have an isolating buffer like the 20MHz
 boards do, on these the TCXO drives the output directly, so one must be
 careful
  to set the equipment to 1M Ohms input impedance or use a buffer
 externally,  which is what we did to measure the attached PN plot.

 Bye,
 Said




 In a message dated 11/20/2014 13:48:22 Pacific Standard Time,
 n1...@burlingtontelecom.net writes:

 Hi  Said,

 Have you ever done a phase noise comparison of the 20 MHz TCXO  divided
 by 2 and the 10 MHz TCXO version?

 My unit has only been  powered for a few hours for initial tests. I'm
 using the uBlox U-Center  software version 8.12 for monitoring the GPS.

 Mike

 On 11/20/2014  3:32 PM, S. Jackson via time-nuts wrote:
  Hello  everyone,
 
  after what must have been the longest thread in  T-nuts history its
 almost
  all quiet today. I am going to take  advantage of that and  announce some
  good news:
 
   Its a miracle: the 10MHz DIP-14 TCXOs for the LTE-Lite came in weeks
 ahead
  of schedule from the factory! And they work very  well.
 
  We will thus be shipping out the 10MHz LTE-Lite eval  boards in the  next
  couple of working days. There are still a  number left for sale on Ebay
  (search for LTE Lite GPSDO), so if you  were hesitant to get one due to
 the  long
  lead-time, then now is  your chance.
 
  Also, after being in time nuts hands for almost a  week I am surprised
  there are very few mails, questions, or comments  about the 20MHz boards,
  and we
  have received almost no feedback  on Ebay :( I hope that is a good  sign.
 
  Bye,
   Said
 
 
 
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  and follow the  instructions there.
 

 --

 73,
 Mike, N1JEZ
 A closed  mouth gathers no feet


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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

Hi Dave,
 
very good question, for up-conversion it almost always pays off to use the  
highest frequency possible in my opinion. The reason is that you get a 
noise  increase of 20log(n/m) when up-converting.

So say you have two references, one at 10MHz and one at 100MHz. Say  both 
have a noise floor or -160dBc which is realistic.
 
If you up-convert the 10MHz noise floor to 1GHz by using a harmonic  
converter with very wide BW rather than a PLL with limited BW, then  the 
resulting 
1GHz noisefloor would theoretically be 40dB higher from the 10MHz  source 
or -120dBc. That's not very good.
 
If you upconvert the 100MHz source, the noise floor would be 20dB better,  
or 140dBc.
 
For up-conversion using a PLL with limited bandwidth this would not hold  
true. Only the noise within the BW would be up-converted.
 
So to answer your question: its tough to say if a 10MHz or 20MHz source  
would be better.
 
However many oscillator vendors use the same crystal for 20MHz and 10MHz  
TCXO parts, and simply do an internal divide-by-2 inside the TCXO to get 
10MHz  from a 20MHz crystal!
 
In that case you would save yourself one processing step when going from  
20MHz instead of 10MHz, so theoretically the 20MHz part would be the one to  
use.
 
Another consideration could be that at 10MHz you have a huge number of  
beating noise sources all around in a typical lab, the 10MHz short wave  
transmission from Colorado, other test equipment, etc etc, and at 20MHz you 
have  
much less noise that could beat with your source, so that would be another  
reason to use 20MHz if you can in my opinion.
 
Bye,
Said
 
 
In a message dated 11/20/2014 13:40:37 Pacific Standard Time,  
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk writes:

Said,
For a general purpose lab source, to feed things  like

* 22 GHz spectrum analyzer
* 4.5 and 20 GHz signal  generators
* 3 and 20 GHz VNAs
* 20 or 40 GHz frequency counter (I'm  just looking to buy one)

what would you think is the best one to get -  10 or 20 MHz ? Or toss a 
coin?

Dave
Dr. David Kirkby Ph.D CEng  MIET
Kirkby Microwave Ltd
Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham  Rd, Althorne, Essex, CM3 
6DT, UK.
Registered in England and Wales, company  number 08914892.
http://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/
Tel: 07910 441670 /  +44 7910 441670 (0900 to 2100 GMT only please)


On 20 November 2014  20:32, S. Jackson via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com 
wrote:
  Hello everyone,

 after what must have been the longest thread  in T-nuts history its  
almost
 all quiet today. I am going to take  advantage of that and  announce some
 good news:

  Its a miracle: the 10MHz DIP-14 TCXOs for the LTE-Lite came in weeks   
ahead
 of schedule from the factory! And they work very  well.

 We will thus be shipping out the 10MHz LTE-Lite eval  boards in the  next
 couple of working days. There are still a  number left for sale on Ebay
 (search for LTE Lite GPSDO), so if you  were hesitant to get one due to 
the  long
 lead-time, then now is  your chance.

 Also, after being in time nuts hands for almost a  week I am surprised
 there are very few mails, questions, or comments  about the 20MHz boards, 
 and we
 have received almost no feedback  on Ebay :( I hope that is a good  sign.

 Bye,
  Said



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 To unsubscribe, go to  
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-11-20 Thread Alex Pummer




Hi Said,
do you have any information about how that TimePod 5330A works any 
principal description?

73
KJ6UHN
Alex

On 11/20/2014 2:08 PM, S. Jackson via time-nuts wrote:

Hello Mike,
  
attached is a 10MHz DIP-14 TCXO Phase Noise plot from a random  LTE-Lite

unit.
  
I had sent out a 20MHz typical phase noise plot some weeks ago, and

comparing the two they are almost perfectly 6dB apart as would be expected from
the 20log(n/m) relationship. There are variations from unit to unit of
course,  but it does not seem like one version of the board or the other has
advantages  in terms of phase noise.
  
I had also sent out a superimposed plot of the 20MHz and the divide-by-2

10MHz output of the same board at that time, and again the relationship was
almost perfectly 6dB lower at 10MHz versus 20MHz.
  
While phase noise follows theory, it does seem that the DIP14 metal shield

has a beneficial effect on the ADEV stability though. The plots we are
getting  are pretty darn good, and I want to test more boards before I post any
ADEV,  because its quite a bit better than our specification and I want to
make sure  its real.
  
The 10MHz DIP-14 boards do not have an isolating buffer like the 20MHz

boards do, on these the TCXO drives the output directly, so one must be careful
  to set the equipment to 1M Ohms input impedance or use a buffer
externally,  which is what we did to measure the attached PN plot.
  
Bye,

Said
  



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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-11-20 Thread Alex Pummer

they are affordable and good:

585C/588C Frequency Counters

CW, pulsed, and other time-varying microwave and millimeter-wave signals
can be automatically measured by the 585C and 588C frequency counters.
VCO measurements, chirped radar profiling, and frequency-agile system
analysis are all made with unparalleled ease. Pulsed signals can be
fully characterized, including carrier frequency, frequency linearity,
pulse width, and pulse period. The 585C measures signals up to 20 GHz
and the 588C's range reaches 26.5 GHz with an option to extend to 170 GHz.

- See more at:
http://www.phasematrix.net/phasematrix/products/frequency-counters/585c588c-full-rack-frequency-counters#sthash.x7L7VuWM.dpuf

585C/588C Frequency Counters

- See more at:
http://www.phasematrix.net/phasematrix/products/frequency-counters/585c588c-full-rack-frequency-counters#sthash.x7L7VuWM.dpuf
http://www.phasematrix.net/phasematrix/products/frequency-counters/585c588c-full-rack-frequency-counters

73
Alex
CW, pulsed, and other time-varying microwave and millimeter-wave signals
can be automatically measured by the 585C and 588C frequency counters.
VCO measurements, chirped radar profiling, and frequency-agile system
analysis are all made with unparalleled ease. Pulsed signals can be
fully characterized, including carrier frequency, frequency linearity,
pulse width, and pulse period. The 585C measures signals up to 20 GHz
and the 588C's range reaches 26.5 GHz with an option to extend to 170
GHz. - See more at:
http://www.phasematrix.net/phasematrix/products/frequency-counters/585c588c-full-rack-frequency-counters#sthash.x7L7VuWM.dpuf

On 11/20/2014 1:40 PM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote:

Said,
For a general purpose lab source, to feed things like

* 22 GHz spectrum analyzer
* 4.5 and 20 GHz signal generators
* 3 and 20 GHz VNAs
* 20 or 40 GHz frequency counter (I'm just looking to buy one)

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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-11-20 Thread Bob Camp

Hi

Probably a question for John Miles (who designed them and is a list member) or 
Symmetricom (who now sells them for $10K to $15K).

Quick and dirty description - takes the two inputs and digitizes them against 
an internal clock. The result is fed to a PC via USB. The data is 
auto-correlation processed on the PC and after a bit of work by the CPU, you 
get phase noise information. 

Bob

 On Nov 20, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Alex Pummer a...@pcscons.com wrote:
 
 
 
 Hi Said,
 do you have any information about how that TimePod 5330A works any 
 principal description?
 73
 KJ6UHN
 Alex
 
 On 11/20/2014 2:08 PM, S. Jackson via time-nuts wrote:
 Hello Mike,
  attached is a 10MHz DIP-14 TCXO Phase Noise plot from a random  LTE-Lite
 unit.
  I had sent out a 20MHz typical phase noise plot some weeks ago, and
 comparing the two they are almost perfectly 6dB apart as would be expected 
 from
 the 20log(n/m) relationship. There are variations from unit to unit of
 course,  but it does not seem like one version of the board or the other has
 advantages  in terms of phase noise.
  I had also sent out a superimposed plot of the 20MHz and the divide-by-2
 10MHz output of the same board at that time, and again the relationship was
 almost perfectly 6dB lower at 10MHz versus 20MHz.
  While phase noise follows theory, it does seem that the DIP14 metal shield
 has a beneficial effect on the ADEV stability though. The plots we are
 getting  are pretty darn good, and I want to test more boards before I post 
 any
 ADEV,  because its quite a bit better than our specification and I want to
 make sure  its real.
  The 10MHz DIP-14 boards do not have an isolating buffer like the 20MHz
 boards do, on these the TCXO drives the output directly, so one must be 
 careful
  to set the equipment to 1M Ohms input impedance or use a buffer
 externally,  which is what we did to measure the attached PN plot.
  Bye,
 Said
  
 
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

Paul,
 
if you set the serial switch on the LTE-Lite over to the NMEA side then the 
 uBlox application will give you all sorts of bar graphs for signal 
strengths,  position, time, etc as it decodes all the NMEA messages.
 
Alex,
 
the TSC5125A user manual contains a description of the theory in its  
Appendix B. Its probably available on the Microsemi website as I don't think 
its  
confidential.
 
Also, I think John's TimePod user manual probably has a description of it.  
Otherwise I remember Sam Stein (who is behind the TSC units) had some PTTI 
or  similar presentations discussing the technology, but I don't know where 
those  could be downloaded.
 
Bye,
Said
 
 
In a message dated 11/20/2014 14:34:32 Pacific Standard Time,  
a...@pcscons.com writes:



Hi Said,
do you have any information about how that  TimePod 5330A works any 
principal  description?
73
KJ6UHN
Alex

On 11/20/2014 2:08 PM, S. Jackson  via time-nuts wrote:
 Hello Mike,
   
 attached  is a 10MHz DIP-14 TCXO Phase Noise plot from a random  LTE-Lite
  unit.
   
 I had sent out a 20MHz typical phase noise  plot some weeks ago, and
 comparing the two they are almost perfectly  6dB apart as would be 
expected from
 the 20log(n/m) relationship. There  are variations from unit to unit of
 course,  but it does not seem  like one version of the board or the other 
has
 advantages  in  terms of phase noise.
   
 I had also sent out a  superimposed plot of the 20MHz and the divide-by-2
 10MHz output of the  same board at that time, and again the relationship 
was
 almost  perfectly 6dB lower at 10MHz versus 20MHz.
   
 While  phase noise follows theory, it does seem that the DIP14 metal 
shield
  has a beneficial effect on the ADEV stability though. The plots we are
  getting  are pretty darn good, and I want to test more boards before I  
post any
 ADEV,  because its quite a bit better than our  specification and I want 
to
 make sure  its  real.
   
 The 10MHz DIP-14 boards do not have an  isolating buffer like the 20MHz
 boards do, on these the TCXO drives  the output directly, so one must be 
careful
   to set the  equipment to 1M Ohms input impedance or use a buffer
 externally,   which is what we did to measure the attached PN plot.

 Bye,
 Said




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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-11-20 Thread John Miles

 Hi Said,
 do you have any information about how that TimePod 5330A works any
 principal description?
 73
 KJ6UHN
 Alex

Here's the manual:
http://www.miles.io/TimePod_5330A_user_manual.pdf 

These days, it's manufactured and sold by Microsemi as the 3120A Phase Noise 
Test Probe.  Microsemi recently acquired the Symmetricom time and frequency IP 
going all the way back to the HP and Datum eras.  They actually lowered some 
prices on various Symmetricom products after the acquisition, including the 
3120A, so it's worth checking with them for a current quote if you were turned 
off by Symmetricom's initial pricing.

Disclaimer: I no longer sell them directly and have no related financial 
interests.  They're still cool boxes, though, and everybody needs at least one. 
:)  Currently, http://www.miles.io redirects to the 3120A product page as a 
courtesy to its new owners.

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC


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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-11-20 Thread John Miles

 Also, I think John's TimePod user manual probably has a description of it.
 Otherwise I remember Sam Stein (who is behind the TSC units) had some PTTI
 or  similar presentations discussing the technology, but I don't know where
 those  could be downloaded.

I have a large (if debatably organized) list of links at 
http://www.ke5fx.com/stability.htm .  Sam's papers and articles on the subject 
are definitely the primary sources, and they are linked at the bottom of the 
second section (General timing and noise metrology.)

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC

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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

2014-11-20 Thread Jean-Louis Oneto

Hello Said and T-nuts,
About the 20 MHz LTE-Lite, do you have news for a new batch? (unfortunately, I 
missed the first one...)
Bye,
Jean-Louis

- Mail original -
De: S. Jackson via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com
À: time-nuts@febo.com
Envoyé: Jeudi 20 Novembre 2014 20:32:36
Objet: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

Hello everyone,
 
after what must have been the longest thread in T-nuts history its  almost 
all quiet today. I am going to take advantage of that and  announce some 
good news:
 
Its a miracle: the 10MHz DIP-14 TCXOs for the LTE-Lite came in weeks  ahead 
of schedule from the factory! And they work very well.
 
We will thus be shipping out the 10MHz LTE-Lite eval boards in the  next 
couple of working days. There are still a number left for sale on Ebay  
(search for LTE Lite GPSDO), so if you were hesitant to get one due to the  
long 
lead-time, then now is your chance.
 
Also, after being in time nuts hands for almost a week I am surprised  
there are very few mails, questions, or comments about the 20MHz boards,  and 
we 
have received almost no feedback on Ebay :( I hope that is a good  sign.
 
Bye,
Said



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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite