Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[David J Taylor]

From: Charles Steinmetz

Try this:


Best regards,

Charles
=

Not for the UK, it seems.  Is it on YouTube?  Could someone upload it 
somewhere?


Thanks,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv 


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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Charles Steinmetz]

Bob wrote:


That gets me to a quick intro to the episode and a link to watch the whole 
thing. The watch
the whole thing link sends me off to another episode entirely


Huh.  Worked fine for me, originally and just now.

Charles


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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[jimlux]

On 1/21/17 11:52 AM, Charles Steinmetz wrote:

jimlux wrote:


I forgot to watch (actually, I knew it was today, but I thought
it would be on this afternoon, not at 7AM)..

(and, I'll get a call from management on Monday.. uh, Jim, about that
interview)


LOL

Try this:



eventually it will be up there..
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Artek Manuals]

Dont know about this one  but I know from some other venues that it can 
take a day or two for an episode that was aired this morning to actually 
show up the link may bew pointing to last weeks show still ...Try again 
on Monday or Tuesday



Dave




On 1/21/2017 5:00 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi



On Jan 21, 2017, at 2:52 PM, Charles Steinmetz  wrote:

jimlux wrote:


I forgot to watch (actually, I knew it was today, but I thought
it would be on this afternoon, not at 7AM)..

(and, I'll get a call from management on Monday.. uh, Jim, about that
interview)

LOL

Try this: 


That gets me to a quick intro to the episode and a link to watch the whole 
thing. The watch
the whole thing link sends me off to another episode entirely :(

Bob


Best regards,

Charles


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--
Dave
manu...@artekmanuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com


---
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Charles Steinmetz]

jimlux wrote:


I forgot to watch (actually, I knew it was today, but I thought
it would be on this afternoon, not at 7AM)..

(and, I'll get a call from management on Monday.. uh, Jim, about that
interview)


LOL

Try this: 



Best regards,

Charles


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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Bob Camp]

Hi


> On Jan 21, 2017, at 2:52 PM, Charles Steinmetz  wrote:
> 
> jimlux wrote:
> 
>> I forgot to watch (actually, I knew it was today, but I thought
>> it would be on this afternoon, not at 7AM)..
>> 
>> (and, I'll get a call from management on Monday.. uh, Jim, about that
>> interview)
> 
> LOL
> 
> Try this: 
> 

That gets me to a quick intro to the episode and a link to watch the whole 
thing. The watch
the whole thing link sends me off to another episode entirely :(

Bob

> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Charles
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Bob Camp]

Hi

So what we are all now scrambling to find a copy of is season 3, episode 62 
originally aired 1/21/2017 of Innovation Nation. 

Bob

> On Jan 21, 2017, at 2:09 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 1/21/17 10:24 AM, steve heidmann via time-nuts wrote:
>> WoW . I don't know if I'm the first nut to see this but it was probably our 
>> own Jim Lux I just saw on CBS's Innovation Nation
> 
> It was.. I forgot to watch (actually, I knew it was today, but I thought it 
> would be on this afternoon, not at 7AM)..
> 
> I hope it came out ok.  You film these things months and months ago, and they 
> edit A LOT...
> 
> For all I know, it came out as "Jim believes that aliens built the pyramids 
> to prevent global warming, and when Napoleon's army started shooting 
> artillery at them, it was the beginning of the end"
> 
> (and, I'll get a call from management on Monday.. uh, Jim, about that 
> interview)
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[jimlux]

On 1/21/17 10:24 AM, steve heidmann via time-nuts wrote:

WoW . I don't know if I'm the first nut to see this but it was probably our own 
Jim Lux I just saw on CBS's Innovation Nation


It was.. I forgot to watch (actually, I knew it was today, but I thought 
it would be on this afternoon, not at 7AM)..


I hope it came out ok.  You film these things months and months ago, and 
they edit A LOT...


For all I know, it came out as "Jim believes that aliens built the 
pyramids to prevent global warming, and when Napoleon's army started 
shooting artillery at them, it was the beginning of the end"


(and, I'll get a call from management on Monday.. uh, Jim, about that 
interview)


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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[steve heidmann via time-nuts]

WoW . I don't know if I'm the first nut to see this but it was probably our own 
Jim Lux I just saw on CBS's Innovation Nation

On Sat, 1/21/17, jimlux <jim...@earthlink.net> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Date: Saturday, January 21, 2017, 7:25 AM
 
 On 1/20/17 7:10 PM, Bob
 Camp wrote:
 > Hi
 >
 > There are several other materials that you
 can make crystal resonators out of that
 >
 are piezo electric. Some of them can give you much higher Q.
 This comes with a whole
 > raft of other
 issues. Langesite is one of the more common materials you
 see people
 > playing with. It is common
 enough that I’ve actually played with it myself.  The
 simple
 >  answer is that when you look
 at cost, Q, and stability (aging, ADEV, temperature) —
 > it is tough to beat quartz. If you have a
 few hundred thousand dollars, you can play
 > with great big chunks of Sapphire. Toss in
 a bit of this and a bit of that and you can get a
 > pretty amazing oscillator. That device may
 (or may not) be < $1,000,000 depending
 > on how you do the accounting and how many
 parts you spread the costs over.
 
 
 would not a true time nut grow
 their own sapphire?
 
 Realistically, isn't it all about the
 crystal lattice.. SiO2 vs Al2O3 vs 
 Lanthanum Gallium Silicate vs Lithium
 Niobate
 
 WHat makes a
 "good" material?  I would think the ability to
 grow a very 
 uniform crystal is part of it,
 but are certain crystal forms better than 
 others?
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Bob Camp]

Hi



> On Jan 21, 2017, at 10:25 AM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 1/20/17 7:10 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> There are several other materials that you can make crystal resonators out 
>> of that
>> are piezo electric. Some of them can give you much higher Q. This comes with 
>> a whole
>> raft of other issues. Langesite is one of the more common materials you see 
>> people
>> playing with. It is common enough that I’ve actually played with it myself.  
>> The simple
>> answer is that when you look at cost, Q, and stability (aging, ADEV, 
>> temperature) —
>> it is tough to beat quartz. If you have a few hundred thousand dollars, you 
>> can play
>> with great big chunks of Sapphire. Toss in a bit of this and a bit of that 
>> and you can get a
>> pretty amazing oscillator. That device may (or may not) be < $1,000,000 
>> depending
>> on how you do the accounting and how many parts you spread the costs over.
> 
> 
> would not a true time nut grow their own sapphire?

Or at the very least spend some quality time digging a 100 lb lump up out 
of the Australian outback ….

> 
> Realistically, isn't it all about the crystal lattice.. SiO2 vs Al2O3 vs 
> Lanthanum Gallium Silicate vs Lithium Niobate
> 
> WHat makes a "good" material?  I would think the ability to grow a very 
> uniform crystal is part of it, but are certain crystal forms better than 
> others?

Indeed you need a “well grown” crystal and figuring out how to grow 
them without adding a bunch of stress, contamination, and imperfections
in the lattice is a very big deal. Past that, for Q you get into the acoustic 
loss properties of the material. Some materials are less lossy than others. 
It is no different than picking a microwave dielectric in that regard. Some 
of the fun and games involved is measuring the acoustic properties of
all these materials. 

Bob

> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[jimlux]

On 1/20/17 7:10 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

There are several other materials that you can make crystal resonators out of 
that
are piezo electric. Some of them can give you much higher Q. This comes with a 
whole
raft of other issues. Langesite is one of the more common materials you see 
people
playing with. It is common enough that I’ve actually played with it myself.  
The simple
 answer is that when you look at cost, Q, and stability (aging, ADEV, 
temperature) —
it is tough to beat quartz. If you have a few hundred thousand dollars, you can 
play
with great big chunks of Sapphire. Toss in a bit of this and a bit of that and 
you can get a
pretty amazing oscillator. That device may (or may not) be < $1,000,000 
depending
on how you do the accounting and how many parts you spread the costs over.



would not a true time nut grow their own sapphire?

Realistically, isn't it all about the crystal lattice.. SiO2 vs Al2O3 vs 
Lanthanum Gallium Silicate vs Lithium Niobate


WHat makes a "good" material?  I would think the ability to grow a very 
uniform crystal is part of it, but are certain crystal forms better than 
others?



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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Bob Camp]

Hi

There are several other materials that you can make crystal resonators out of 
that
are piezo electric. Some of them can give you much higher Q. This comes with a 
whole
raft of other issues. Langesite is one of the more common materials you see 
people
playing with. It is common enough that I’ve actually played with it myself.  
The simple
 answer is that when you look at cost, Q, and stability (aging, ADEV, 
temperature) — 
it is tough to beat quartz. If you have a few hundred thousand dollars, you can 
play
with great big chunks of Sapphire. Toss in a bit of this and a bit of that and 
you can get a 
pretty amazing oscillator. That device may (or may not) be < $1,000,000 
depending 
on how you do the accounting and how many parts you spread the costs over. 

Bob

> On Jan 20, 2017, at 12:57 PM, Alex Pummer  wrote:
> 
> once upon the time there was an other crystal material -- NOT quartz ! --  
> the Russian came up with it, perhaps Bernd [Neubig] remembers on that, what 
> happened to that story?
> that crystal could be run at higher drive level, therefore it would be 
> possible to make some better oscillators
> 73
> KJ6UHN
> Alex
> 
> 
> 
> On 1/20/2017 8:38 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> If you think about it, current through the crystal is at least as important 
>> as
>> “drive level”. They are related by the crystal resistance. As the overtone
>> goes up, the resistance (in general) goes up. There are size constrained
>> designs where other things get in the way of this. There are also tricks
>> that might be used to degrade the fundamental.
>> 
>> Since the resistance is higher at the 5th than at the fundamental, 1 mw of 
>> crystal
>> dissipation (drive level) is going to be less current through the crystal. 
>> At some
>> (possibly a bit removed) point that gets you less current into your buffer 
>> amplifier at
>> a given impedance level. Less current / same impedance gets you to worse 
>> signal
>> to noise broadband.
>> 
>> Is this really that big a deal? As always … that depends. ADEV usually 
>> degrades
>> as drive goes up. Phase noise gets better. At some point this or that 
>> crystal explodes
>> (the electrodes fly off). It is uncommon to get to the damage level on a 
>> crystal. You
>> normally massage the design in the tradeoff region.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Jan 19, 2017, at 7:31 PM, Scott Stobbe  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Is there any reason why you wouldn't be able to run the same drive level on
>>> say the fifth overtone versus the fundamental? I would guess at 100 MHz it
>>> may be 3rd or 5th, or are they fundamental?
>>> 
>>> The comments one drivelevel are simply based on snr, larger signal with
>>> same noise, better snr
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 7:06 PM Bob Camp  wrote:
>>> 
 Hi
 
 
 
 
 
> On Jan 19, 2017, at 3:03 PM, Scott Stobbe 
 wrote:
 
> Wouldn't crystal drive level be one of the important specifications for
 far
 
> out phase noise?
 
 
 It would, but you can get the same floor at 10 MHz as you can get at 100
 MHz.
 
 
 
 Bob
 
 
 
> On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>> HI
>> A lot of your evaluation of the term “better” will depend on your
 intended
 
>> use. One of the limits on phase noise
>> is the thermal noise floor. Because of that, starting at a higher
>> frequency will always give you an edge on broadband
>> phase noise. ADEV / short term stability is linked to the Q of your
>> resonator. In a quartz crystal, maximum Q is
>> roughly proportional to frequency. The other limit on Q is blank
 geometry
 
>> (size). One other limit is practicality -
>> is a $250,000 OCXO that is 1 cubic meter in size appropriate for your
>> application? The answer to that one is
>> universally - NO :) Somewhere along the line of larger size and cost,
>> other technologies make more sense.
>> So, if better = phase noise floor, 100 MHz is better than 10 MHz. If
>> better = ADEV, 5 MHz in a large package is
>> likely better than 100 MHz. Indeed these are only two variables. There
 are
 
>> *many* others you could look at.
>> Lots of fun
>> Bob
>>> On Jan 19, 2017, at 7:13 AM, Charles Steinmetz 
>> wrote:
>>> Chris wrote:
 I have always wondered why we build our "standard" with such a low
 frequency.   Why not a 100MHz GPSDO?   Why 10MHz
>>> Quartz crystals work better at lower frequencies, predominantly because
>> they have higher Q.  10MHz was chosen because it is low enough for
>> excellent performance but high enough to be directly useful (since an
>> accident of biology gave us ten fingers, we've created a base-10 world
 and
 
>> powers of 10 are favored in almost everything).
>>> 

Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Alex Pummer]

once upon the time there was an other crystal material -- NOT quartz ! 
--  the Russian came up with it, perhaps Bernd [Neubig] remembers on 
that, what happened to that story?
that crystal could be run at higher drive level, therefore it would be 
possible to make some better oscillators

73
KJ6UHN
Alex



On 1/20/2017 8:38 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

If you think about it, current through the crystal is at least as important as
“drive level”. They are related by the crystal resistance. As the overtone
goes up, the resistance (in general) goes up. There are size constrained
designs where other things get in the way of this. There are also tricks
that might be used to degrade the fundamental.

Since the resistance is higher at the 5th than at the fundamental, 1 mw of 
crystal
dissipation (drive level) is going to be less current through the crystal. At 
some
(possibly a bit removed) point that gets you less current into your buffer 
amplifier at
a given impedance level. Less current / same impedance gets you to worse signal
to noise broadband.

Is this really that big a deal? As always … that depends. ADEV usually degrades
as drive goes up. Phase noise gets better. At some point this or that crystal 
explodes
(the electrodes fly off). It is uncommon to get to the damage level on a 
crystal. You
normally massage the design in the tradeoff region.

Bob


On Jan 19, 2017, at 7:31 PM, Scott Stobbe  wrote:

Is there any reason why you wouldn't be able to run the same drive level on
say the fifth overtone versus the fundamental? I would guess at 100 MHz it
may be 3rd or 5th, or are they fundamental?

The comments one drivelevel are simply based on snr, larger signal with
same noise, better snr

On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 7:06 PM Bob Camp  wrote:


Hi






On Jan 19, 2017, at 3:03 PM, Scott Stobbe 

wrote:


Wouldn't crystal drive level be one of the important specifications for

far


out phase noise?



It would, but you can get the same floor at 10 MHz as you can get at 100
MHz.



Bob




On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

HI
A lot of your evaluation of the term “better” will depend on your

intended


use. One of the limits on phase noise
is the thermal noise floor. Because of that, starting at a higher
frequency will always give you an edge on broadband
phase noise. ADEV / short term stability is linked to the Q of your
resonator. In a quartz crystal, maximum Q is
roughly proportional to frequency. The other limit on Q is blank

geometry


(size). One other limit is practicality -
is a $250,000 OCXO that is 1 cubic meter in size appropriate for your
application? The answer to that one is
universally - NO :) Somewhere along the line of larger size and cost,
other technologies make more sense.
So, if better = phase noise floor, 100 MHz is better than 10 MHz. If
better = ADEV, 5 MHz in a large package is
likely better than 100 MHz. Indeed these are only two variables. There

are


*many* others you could look at.
Lots of fun
Bob

On Jan 19, 2017, at 7:13 AM, Charles Steinmetz 

wrote:

Chris wrote:

I have always wondered why we build our "standard" with such a low
frequency.   Why not a 100MHz GPSDO?   Why 10MHz

Quartz crystals work better at lower frequencies, predominantly because

they have higher Q.  10MHz was chosen because it is low enough for
excellent performance but high enough to be directly useful (since an
accident of biology gave us ten fingers, we've created a base-10 world

and


powers of 10 are favored in almost everything).

In prior times, 5MHz crystals held this position, and before that,

1MHz.  There is a good argument even today that the best 2.5MHz or 5MHz
crystals are better than the best 10MHz crystals, but not by enough to

make


2.5MHz or 5MHz standards popular any longer.

One lonely data point, which proves nothing:  My best crystal

oscillator


is a Symmetricom clone of the double-oven HP 10811s (it came out of an

HP


GPSDO, so apparently HP at one time used them interchangeably with the
10811).  That OCXO uses a 5MHz crystal and a frequency doubler to

produce


its 10MHz output.

Best Regards,
Charles

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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Bob Camp]

Hi

If you think about it, current through the crystal is at least as important as 
“drive level”. They are related by the crystal resistance. As the overtone 
goes up, the resistance (in general) goes up. There are size constrained 
designs where other things get in the way of this. There are also tricks 
that might be used to degrade the fundamental. 

Since the resistance is higher at the 5th than at the fundamental, 1 mw of 
crystal
dissipation (drive level) is going to be less current through the crystal. At 
some 
(possibly a bit removed) point that gets you less current into your buffer 
amplifier at
a given impedance level. Less current / same impedance gets you to worse signal 
to noise broadband. 

Is this really that big a deal? As always … that depends. ADEV usually degrades
as drive goes up. Phase noise gets better. At some point this or that crystal 
explodes 
(the electrodes fly off). It is uncommon to get to the damage level on a 
crystal. You
normally massage the design in the tradeoff region.

Bob

> On Jan 19, 2017, at 7:31 PM, Scott Stobbe  wrote:
> 
> Is there any reason why you wouldn't be able to run the same drive level on
> say the fifth overtone versus the fundamental? I would guess at 100 MHz it
> may be 3rd or 5th, or are they fundamental?
> 
> The comments one drivelevel are simply based on snr, larger signal with
> same noise, better snr
> 
> On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 7:06 PM Bob Camp  wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 19, 2017, at 3:03 PM, Scott Stobbe 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> Wouldn't crystal drive level be one of the important specifications for
>> far
>> 
>>> out phase noise?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> It would, but you can get the same floor at 10 MHz as you can get at 100
>> MHz.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>> 
 HI
>> 
 
>> 
 A lot of your evaluation of the term “better” will depend on your
>> intended
>> 
 use. One of the limits on phase noise
>> 
 is the thermal noise floor. Because of that, starting at a higher
>> 
 frequency will always give you an edge on broadband
>> 
 phase noise. ADEV / short term stability is linked to the Q of your
>> 
 resonator. In a quartz crystal, maximum Q is
>> 
 roughly proportional to frequency. The other limit on Q is blank
>> geometry
>> 
 (size). One other limit is practicality -
>> 
 is a $250,000 OCXO that is 1 cubic meter in size appropriate for your
>> 
 application? The answer to that one is
>> 
 universally - NO :) Somewhere along the line of larger size and cost,
>> 
 other technologies make more sense.
>> 
 
>> 
 So, if better = phase noise floor, 100 MHz is better than 10 MHz. If
>> 
 better = ADEV, 5 MHz in a large package is
>> 
 likely better than 100 MHz. Indeed these are only two variables. There
>> are
>> 
 *many* others you could look at.
>> 
 
>> 
 Lots of fun
>> 
 
>> 
 Bob
>> 
 
>> 
 
>> 
 
>> 
> On Jan 19, 2017, at 7:13 AM, Charles Steinmetz 
>> 
 wrote:
>> 
> 
>> 
> Chris wrote:
>> 
> 
>> 
>> I have always wondered why we build our "standard" with such a low
>> 
>> frequency.   Why not a 100MHz GPSDO?   Why 10MHz
>> 
> 
>> 
> Quartz crystals work better at lower frequencies, predominantly because
>> 
 they have higher Q.  10MHz was chosen because it is low enough for
>> 
 excellent performance but high enough to be directly useful (since an
>> 
 accident of biology gave us ten fingers, we've created a base-10 world
>> and
>> 
 powers of 10 are favored in almost everything).
>> 
> 
>> 
> In prior times, 5MHz crystals held this position, and before that,
>> 
 1MHz.  There is a good argument even today that the best 2.5MHz or 5MHz
>> 
 crystals are better than the best 10MHz crystals, but not by enough to
>> make
>> 
 2.5MHz or 5MHz standards popular any longer.
>> 
> 
>> 
> One lonely data point, which proves nothing:  My best crystal
>> oscillator
>> 
 is a Symmetricom clone of the double-oven HP 10811s (it came out of an
>> HP
>> 
 GPSDO, so apparently HP at one time used them interchangeably with the
>> 
 10811).  That OCXO uses a 5MHz crystal and a frequency doubler to
>> produce
>> 
 its 10MHz output.
>> 
> 
>> 
> Best Regards,
>> 
> 
>> 
> Charles
>> 
> 
>> 
 
>> 
 ___
>> 
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> 
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> 
 mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> 
 and follow the instructions there.
>> 
 
>> 
>>> ___
>> 
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> 
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>> 

Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[David]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 10:48:57 -0800, you wrote:

>On 1/19/2017 5:40 AM, David wrote:
>
>> oscillator.  In some applications I would also be concerned about the
>> phase of a narrow bandpass filter changing with temperature.
>
>The 5061 has tuned bandpass filter multipliers which have exactly this 
>problem.  A temperature ramp causes a phase ramp which is the same as a
>frequency offset.
>
>Rick N6RK

That is what I remembered from a discussion here about 10 MHz
distribution amplifiers
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Bob Camp]

Hi

> On Jan 19, 2017, at 2:42 PM, Bryan _ <bpl...@outlook.com> wrote:
> 
> Wouldn't designing circuitry and PCB's be easier with 10Mhz vs 100Mhz? Maybe 
> not so much now but then.

Design in general might be a bit easier at the lower frequency “way back when”. 
I’ve never run into 
it as an issue or consideration since the mid 1960’s though. 

Bob

> 
> 
> -=Bryan=-
> 
> 
> 
> From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Charles Steinmetz 
> <csteinm...@yandex.com>
> Sent: January 19, 2017 4:13 AM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz
> 
> Chris wrote:
> 
>> I have always wondered why we build our "standard" with such a low
>> frequency.   Why not a 100MHz GPSDO?   Why 10MHz
> 
> Quartz crystals work better at lower frequencies, predominantly because
> they have higher Q.  10MHz was chosen because it is low enough for
> excellent performance but high enough to be directly useful (since an
> accident of biology gave us ten fingers, we've created a base-10 world
> and powers of 10 are favored in almost everything).
> 
> In prior times, 5MHz crystals held this position, and before that, 1MHz.
>  There is a good argument even today that the best 2.5MHz or 5MHz
> crystals are better than the best 10MHz crystals, but not by enough to
> make 2.5MHz or 5MHz standards popular any longer.
> 
> One lonely data point, which proves nothing:  My best crystal oscillator
> is a Symmetricom clone of the double-oven HP 10811s (it came out of an
> HP GPSDO, so apparently HP at one time used them interchangeably with
> the 10811).  That OCXO uses a 5MHz crystal and a frequency doubler to
> produce its 10MHz output.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Charles
> 
> 
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> and frequency measurement and related topics. To see the collection of prior 
> postings to ...
> 
> 
> 
> and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Scott Stobbe]

Is there any reason why you wouldn't be able to run the same drive level on
say the fifth overtone versus the fundamental? I would guess at 100 MHz it
may be 3rd or 5th, or are they fundamental?

The comments one drivelevel are simply based on snr, larger signal with
same noise, better snr

On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 7:06 PM Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 19, 2017, at 3:03 PM, Scott Stobbe 
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Wouldn't crystal drive level be one of the important specifications for
> far
>
> > out phase noise?
>
>
>
> It would, but you can get the same floor at 10 MHz as you can get at 100
> MHz.
>
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> >
>
> > On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>
> >
>
> >> HI
>
> >>
>
> >> A lot of your evaluation of the term “better” will depend on your
> intended
>
> >> use. One of the limits on phase noise
>
> >> is the thermal noise floor. Because of that, starting at a higher
>
> >> frequency will always give you an edge on broadband
>
> >> phase noise. ADEV / short term stability is linked to the Q of your
>
> >> resonator. In a quartz crystal, maximum Q is
>
> >> roughly proportional to frequency. The other limit on Q is blank
> geometry
>
> >> (size). One other limit is practicality -
>
> >> is a $250,000 OCXO that is 1 cubic meter in size appropriate for your
>
> >> application? The answer to that one is
>
> >> universally - NO :) Somewhere along the line of larger size and cost,
>
> >> other technologies make more sense.
>
> >>
>
> >> So, if better = phase noise floor, 100 MHz is better than 10 MHz. If
>
> >> better = ADEV, 5 MHz in a large package is
>
> >> likely better than 100 MHz. Indeed these are only two variables. There
> are
>
> >> *many* others you could look at.
>
> >>
>
> >> Lots of fun
>
> >>
>
> >> Bob
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>> On Jan 19, 2017, at 7:13 AM, Charles Steinmetz 
>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Chris wrote:
>
> >>>
>
>  I have always wondered why we build our "standard" with such a low
>
>  frequency.   Why not a 100MHz GPSDO?   Why 10MHz
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Quartz crystals work better at lower frequencies, predominantly because
>
> >> they have higher Q.  10MHz was chosen because it is low enough for
>
> >> excellent performance but high enough to be directly useful (since an
>
> >> accident of biology gave us ten fingers, we've created a base-10 world
> and
>
> >> powers of 10 are favored in almost everything).
>
> >>>
>
> >>> In prior times, 5MHz crystals held this position, and before that,
>
> >> 1MHz.  There is a good argument even today that the best 2.5MHz or 5MHz
>
> >> crystals are better than the best 10MHz crystals, but not by enough to
> make
>
> >> 2.5MHz or 5MHz standards popular any longer.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> One lonely data point, which proves nothing:  My best crystal
> oscillator
>
> >> is a Symmetricom clone of the double-oven HP 10811s (it came out of an
> HP
>
> >> GPSDO, so apparently HP at one time used them interchangeably with the
>
> >> 10811).  That OCXO uses a 5MHz crystal and a frequency doubler to
> produce
>
> >> its 10MHz output.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Best Regards,
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Charles
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >> ___
>
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>
> >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>
> >> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>
> >> and follow the instructions there.
>
> >>
>
> > ___
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>
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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> > and follow the instructions there.
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Bob Camp]

> On Jan 19, 2017, at 3:03 PM, Scott Stobbe  wrote:
> 
> Wouldn't crystal drive level be one of the important specifications for far
> out phase noise?
> 
> On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> 
>> HI
>> 
>> A lot of your evaluation of the term “better” will depend on your intended
>> use. One of the limits on phase noise
>> is the thermal noise floor. Because of that, starting at a higher
>> frequency will always give you an edge on broadband
>> phase noise. ADEV / short term stability is linked to the Q of your
>> resonator. In a quartz crystal, maximum Q is
>> roughly proportional to frequency. The other limit on Q is blank geometry
>> (size). One other limit is practicality -
>> is a $250,000 OCXO that is 1 cubic meter in size appropriate for your
>> application? The answer to that one is
>> universally - NO :) Somewhere along the line of larger size and cost,
>> other technologies make more sense.
>> 
>> So, if better = phase noise floor, 100 MHz is better than 10 MHz. If
>> better = ADEV, 5 MHz in a large package is
>> likely better than 100 MHz. Indeed these are only two variables. There are
>> *many* others you could look at.
>> 
>> Lots of fun
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 19, 2017, at 7:13 AM, Charles Steinmetz 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Chris wrote:
>>> 
 I have always wondered why we build our "standard" with such a low
 frequency.   Why not a 100MHz GPSDO?   Why 10MHz
>>> 
>>> Quartz crystals work better at lower frequencies, predominantly because
>> they have higher Q.  10MHz was chosen because it is low enough for
>> excellent performance but high enough to be directly useful (since an
>> accident of biology gave us ten fingers, we've created a base-10 world and
>> powers of 10 are favored in almost everything).
>>> 
>>> In prior times, 5MHz crystals held this position, and before that,
>> 1MHz.  There is a good argument even today that the best 2.5MHz or 5MHz
>> crystals are better than the best 10MHz crystals, but not by enough to make
>> 2.5MHz or 5MHz standards popular any longer.
>>> 
>>> One lonely data point, which proves nothing:  My best crystal oscillator
>> is a Symmetricom clone of the double-oven HP 10811s (it came out of an HP
>> GPSDO, so apparently HP at one time used them interchangeably with the
>> 10811).  That OCXO uses a 5MHz crystal and a frequency doubler to produce
>> its 10MHz output.
>>> 
>>> Best Regards,
>>> 
>>> Charles
>>> 
>> 
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>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Bob Camp]

Hi


> On Jan 19, 2017, at 3:03 PM, Scott Stobbe  wrote:
> 
> Wouldn't crystal drive level be one of the important specifications for far
> out phase noise?

It would, but you can get the same floor at 10 MHz as you can get at 100 MHz.

Bob

> 
> On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> 
>> HI
>> 
>> A lot of your evaluation of the term “better” will depend on your intended
>> use. One of the limits on phase noise
>> is the thermal noise floor. Because of that, starting at a higher
>> frequency will always give you an edge on broadband
>> phase noise. ADEV / short term stability is linked to the Q of your
>> resonator. In a quartz crystal, maximum Q is
>> roughly proportional to frequency. The other limit on Q is blank geometry
>> (size). One other limit is practicality -
>> is a $250,000 OCXO that is 1 cubic meter in size appropriate for your
>> application? The answer to that one is
>> universally - NO :) Somewhere along the line of larger size and cost,
>> other technologies make more sense.
>> 
>> So, if better = phase noise floor, 100 MHz is better than 10 MHz. If
>> better = ADEV, 5 MHz in a large package is
>> likely better than 100 MHz. Indeed these are only two variables. There are
>> *many* others you could look at.
>> 
>> Lots of fun
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 19, 2017, at 7:13 AM, Charles Steinmetz 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Chris wrote:
>>> 
 I have always wondered why we build our "standard" with such a low
 frequency.   Why not a 100MHz GPSDO?   Why 10MHz
>>> 
>>> Quartz crystals work better at lower frequencies, predominantly because
>> they have higher Q.  10MHz was chosen because it is low enough for
>> excellent performance but high enough to be directly useful (since an
>> accident of biology gave us ten fingers, we've created a base-10 world and
>> powers of 10 are favored in almost everything).
>>> 
>>> In prior times, 5MHz crystals held this position, and before that,
>> 1MHz.  There is a good argument even today that the best 2.5MHz or 5MHz
>> crystals are better than the best 10MHz crystals, but not by enough to make
>> 2.5MHz or 5MHz standards popular any longer.
>>> 
>>> One lonely data point, which proves nothing:  My best crystal oscillator
>> is a Symmetricom clone of the double-oven HP 10811s (it came out of an HP
>> GPSDO, so apparently HP at one time used them interchangeably with the
>> 10811).  That OCXO uses a 5MHz crystal and a frequency doubler to produce
>> its 10MHz output.
>>> 
>>> Best Regards,
>>> 
>>> Charles
>>> 
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Charles Steinmetz]

Bob wrote:


is a $250,000 OCXO that is 1 cubic meter in size appropriate for your 
application?
The answer to that one is universally - NO


Well, it'll be a lot cheaper when it shows up on ebay.  The shipping 
might be a killer, though.


;-)

Best regards,

Charles



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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Scott Stobbe]

Wouldn't crystal drive level be one of the important specifications for far
out phase noise?

On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> HI
>
> A lot of your evaluation of the term “better” will depend on your intended
> use. One of the limits on phase noise
> is the thermal noise floor. Because of that, starting at a higher
> frequency will always give you an edge on broadband
> phase noise. ADEV / short term stability is linked to the Q of your
> resonator. In a quartz crystal, maximum Q is
> roughly proportional to frequency. The other limit on Q is blank geometry
> (size). One other limit is practicality -
> is a $250,000 OCXO that is 1 cubic meter in size appropriate for your
> application? The answer to that one is
> universally - NO :) Somewhere along the line of larger size and cost,
> other technologies make more sense.
>
> So, if better = phase noise floor, 100 MHz is better than 10 MHz. If
> better = ADEV, 5 MHz in a large package is
> likely better than 100 MHz. Indeed these are only two variables. There are
> *many* others you could look at.
>
> Lots of fun
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> > On Jan 19, 2017, at 7:13 AM, Charles Steinmetz 
> wrote:
> >
> > Chris wrote:
> >
> >> I have always wondered why we build our "standard" with such a low
> >> frequency.   Why not a 100MHz GPSDO?   Why 10MHz
> >
> > Quartz crystals work better at lower frequencies, predominantly because
> they have higher Q.  10MHz was chosen because it is low enough for
> excellent performance but high enough to be directly useful (since an
> accident of biology gave us ten fingers, we've created a base-10 world and
> powers of 10 are favored in almost everything).
> >
> > In prior times, 5MHz crystals held this position, and before that,
> 1MHz.  There is a good argument even today that the best 2.5MHz or 5MHz
> crystals are better than the best 10MHz crystals, but not by enough to make
> 2.5MHz or 5MHz standards popular any longer.
> >
> > One lonely data point, which proves nothing:  My best crystal oscillator
> is a Symmetricom clone of the double-oven HP 10811s (it came out of an HP
> GPSDO, so apparently HP at one time used them interchangeably with the
> 10811).  That OCXO uses a 5MHz crystal and a frequency doubler to produce
> its 10MHz output.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Charles
> >
>
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Bryan _]

Wouldn't designing circuitry and PCB's be easier with 10Mhz vs 100Mhz? Maybe 
not so much now but then.


-=Bryan=-



From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Charles Steinmetz 
<csteinm...@yandex.com>
Sent: January 19, 2017 4:13 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

Chris wrote:

> I have always wondered why we build our "standard" with such a low
> frequency.   Why not a 100MHz GPSDO?   Why 10MHz

Quartz crystals work better at lower frequencies, predominantly because
they have higher Q.  10MHz was chosen because it is low enough for
excellent performance but high enough to be directly useful (since an
accident of biology gave us ten fingers, we've created a base-10 world
and powers of 10 are favored in almost everything).

In prior times, 5MHz crystals held this position, and before that, 1MHz.
  There is a good argument even today that the best 2.5MHz or 5MHz
crystals are better than the best 10MHz crystals, but not by enough to
make 2.5MHz or 5MHz standards popular any longer.

One lonely data point, which proves nothing:  My best crystal oscillator
is a Symmetricom clone of the double-oven HP 10811s (it came out of an
HP GPSDO, so apparently HP at one time used them interchangeably with
the 10811).  That OCXO uses a 5MHz crystal and a frequency doubler to
produce its 10MHz output.

Best Regards,

Charles


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and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Bob Camp]

HI

A lot of your evaluation of the term “better” will depend on your intended use. 
One of the limits on phase noise
is the thermal noise floor. Because of that, starting at a higher frequency 
will always give you an edge on broadband
phase noise. ADEV / short term stability is linked to the Q of your resonator. 
In a quartz crystal, maximum Q is 
roughly proportional to frequency. The other limit on Q is blank geometry 
(size). One other limit is practicality - 
is a $250,000 OCXO that is 1 cubic meter in size appropriate for your 
application? The answer to that one is 
universally - NO :) Somewhere along the line of larger size and cost, other 
technologies make more sense. 

So, if better = phase noise floor, 100 MHz is better than 10 MHz. If better = 
ADEV, 5 MHz in a large package is 
likely better than 100 MHz. Indeed these are only two variables. There are 
*many* others you could look at. 

Lots of fun 

Bob 



> On Jan 19, 2017, at 7:13 AM, Charles Steinmetz  wrote:
> 
> Chris wrote:
> 
>> I have always wondered why we build our "standard" with such a low
>> frequency.   Why not a 100MHz GPSDO?   Why 10MHz
> 
> Quartz crystals work better at lower frequencies, predominantly because they 
> have higher Q.  10MHz was chosen because it is low enough for excellent 
> performance but high enough to be directly useful (since an accident of 
> biology gave us ten fingers, we've created a base-10 world and powers of 10 
> are favored in almost everything).
> 
> In prior times, 5MHz crystals held this position, and before that, 1MHz.  
> There is a good argument even today that the best 2.5MHz or 5MHz crystals are 
> better than the best 10MHz crystals, but not by enough to make 2.5MHz or 5MHz 
> standards popular any longer.
> 
> One lonely data point, which proves nothing:  My best crystal oscillator is a 
> Symmetricom clone of the double-oven HP 10811s (it came out of an HP GPSDO, 
> so apparently HP at one time used them interchangeably with the 10811).  That 
> OCXO uses a 5MHz crystal and a frequency doubler to produce its 10MHz output.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Charles
> 

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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 1/19/2017 5:40 AM, David wrote:


oscillator.  In some applications I would also be concerned about the
phase of a narrow bandpass filter changing with temperature.


The 5061 has tuned bandpass filter multipliers which have exactly this 
problem.  A temperature ramp causes a phase ramp which is the same as a

frequency offset.

Rick N6RK
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Charles Steinmetz]

Chris wrote:


I have always wondered why we build our "standard" with such a low
frequency.   Why not a 100MHz GPSDO?   Why 10MHz


Quartz crystals work better at lower frequencies, predominantly because 
they have higher Q.  10MHz was chosen because it is low enough for 
excellent performance but high enough to be directly useful (since an 
accident of biology gave us ten fingers, we've created a base-10 world 
and powers of 10 are favored in almost everything).


In prior times, 5MHz crystals held this position, and before that, 1MHz. 
 There is a good argument even today that the best 2.5MHz or 5MHz 
crystals are better than the best 10MHz crystals, but not by enough to 
make 2.5MHz or 5MHz standards popular any longer.


One lonely data point, which proves nothing:  My best crystal oscillator 
is a Symmetricom clone of the double-oven HP 10811s (it came out of an 
HP GPSDO, so apparently HP at one time used them interchangeably with 
the 10811).  That OCXO uses a 5MHz crystal and a frequency doubler to 
produce its 10MHz output.


Best Regards,

Charles


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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[David]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 21:06:04 -0800, you wrote:

>On 1/18/2017 6:34 PM, David wrote:
>
>> An alternative very simple design I might try is a variation of the
>> active frequency multiplier where the 5th harmonic is filtered
>> directly from the output of the digital divide by two stage.
>
>That's a useful trick to reduce the filtering burden.  Having said
>that, if you need good spectral purity, the filtering is still
>going to be very non-trivial.  The original poster is obviously
>not an expert in filters and will not be successful trying that
>approach, except for very low performance design.  Even if
>you are a filter expert, components are hard to get.
>
>Rick N6RK

I only suggested it because Loren seemed dead set on a harmonic
frequency multiplier.  The output from a digital logic gate will
already have a strong 5th harmonic so no extra passive or active
harmonic generating stage is needed.  The document I linked discusses
the filtering requirements like notching out the strong 3rd harmonic.

If spectral purity is important, then this is the wrong way to go
about it; it would be better to phase lock a separate crystal
oscillator.  In some applications I would also be concerned about the
phase of a narrow bandpass filter changing with temperature.
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Loren Moline WA7SKT]

Thanks Bob


Loren Moline  WA7SKT

Member: Pacific Northwest VHF Society and ARRL
Member: Hearsat Satellite Monitoring Group.  www.uhf-satcom.com
Member: CVARS-Chehalis Valley Amateur Radio Society
Starchat IRC: Channel = #hearsat
RF Electronics: Starchat IRC: Channel = #rfelectronics
Grid: CN86mr



From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Bob Camp 
<kb...@n1k.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 6:08 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

Hi

What are you going to use the 25 MHz for? Will it drive any sort of radio? If 
so, cleaning up the phase
noise of the GPSDO is a *very* good idea. With a PLL, you can *subtract* noise. 
With a multiplier you
can only *add* noise. The narrow bandwidth PLL combined with a low nose VCXO is 
your friend in this case.

I would take the process one step further. I'd lock up a 100 MHz VCXO to the 10 
MHz. Then you can get
100, 50, 25, and 20 MHz outputs. The 100 MHz is the key if you want to head up 
into the microwave
region.

Bob

> On Jan 18, 2017, at 8:40 PM, Loren Moline WA7SKT <lmol...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Are you talking about locking the 50MHz VCXO to my 10 MH. Standard? I want 
> the 25MHz to be from my 10MHz OCXO which is my station standard which will 
> locked to GPS eventually.
>
> Loren WA7SKT
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 4:01 PM -0800, "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" 
> <rich...@karlquist.com<mailto:rich...@karlquist.com>> wrote:
>
>
> A better and easier way is to phase lock a crystal oscillator.
> I would use a 50 MHz VCXO and divide the output by 2 to get a
> 25 MHz square wave.
>
> Rick N6RK
>
> On 1/18/2017 10:28 AM, Loren Moline WA7SKT wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am looking for a good X5 multiplier to use to generate a 25MHz signal from 
>> my 10MHz OCXO. I want to divide by 2 and multiply by 5 with a bandpass 
>> filter in the output and then a 3.3 volt 25MHz signal out.
>>
>>
>> Maybe someone has better ways?
>>
>>
>> Loren Moline  WA7SKT
>>
>> Member: Pacific Northwest VHF Society and ARRL
>> Member: Hearsat Satellite Monitoring Group.  
>> www.uhf-satcom.com<http://www.uhf-satcom.com>
UHF-Satcom.com - The #1 online resource for VHF to EHF satellite reception and 
monitoring<http://www.uhf-satcom.com/>
www.uhf-satcom.com
UHF-Satcom.com - the online place for VHF to EHF satcom monitoring uhf vhf shf 
ehf ku-band c-band p-band l-band s-band x-band



>> Member: CVARS-Chehalis Valley Amateur Radio Society
>> Starchat IRC: Channel = #hearsat
>> RF Electronics: Starchat IRC: Channel = #rfelectronics
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 1/18/2017 6:34 PM, David wrote:


An alternative very simple design I might try is a variation of the
active frequency multiplier where the 5th harmonic is filtered
directly from the output of the digital divide by two stage.


That's a useful trick to reduce the filtering burden.  Having said
that, if you need good spectral purity, the filtering is still
going to be very non-trivial.  The original poster is obviously
not an expert in filters and will not be successful trying that
approach, except for very low performance design.  Even if
you are a filter expert, components are hard to get.

Rick N6RK
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Neil Smith G4DBN]

That is exactly what I have just done, using an HMC1031 to lock a good 100MHz 
OCXO to my GPSDO, using a very narrow filter bandwidth with decent 22uF ceramic 
caps in the loop filter. I’ve also made a second version using an XOR gate and 
an MC12080 prescaler and flipflops and fast comparators, but the HMC1031 
version is way simpler and has a wider lock-in range. Hard to measure the 
performance as the noise appears lower than my E4406A can resolve, but with one 
100MHz OCXO locked to the GPSDO and the other to my 10MHz Rb standard, and 
monitoring the relative phases using an AD8302, I see none of the (slight) 
glitchiness of the GPSDO reflected in the 100MHz locked output.

Neil 

> On 19 Jan 2017, at 02:08, Bob Camp  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> What are you going to use the 25 MHz for? Will it drive any sort of radio? If 
> so, cleaning up the phase
> noise of the GPSDO is a *very* good idea. With a PLL, you can *subtract* 
> noise. With a multiplier you 
> can only *add* noise. The narrow bandwidth PLL combined with a low nose VCXO 
> is your friend in this case. 
> 
> I would take the process one step further. I’d lock up a 100 MHz VCXO to the 
> 10 MHz. Then you can get
> 100, 50, 25, and 20 MHz outputs. The 100 MHz is the key if you want to head 
> up into the microwave 
> region. 
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Jan 18, 2017, at 8:40 PM, Loren Moline WA7SKT  wrote:
>> 
>> Are you talking about locking the 50MHz VCXO to my 10 MH. Standard? I want 
>> the 25MHz to be from my 10MHz OCXO which is my station standard which will 
>> locked to GPS eventually.
>> 
>> Loren WA7SKT
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 4:01 PM -0800, "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> A better and easier way is to phase lock a crystal oscillator.
>> I would use a 50 MHz VCXO and divide the output by 2 to get a
>> 25 MHz square wave.
>> 
>> Rick N6RK
>> 
>> On 1/18/2017 10:28 AM, Loren Moline WA7SKT wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> I am looking for a good X5 multiplier to use to generate a 25MHz signal 
>>> from my 10MHz OCXO. I want to divide by 2 and multiply by 5 with a bandpass 
>>> filter in the output and then a 3.3 volt 25MHz signal out.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Maybe someone has better ways?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Loren Moline  WA7SKT
>>> 
>>> Member: Pacific Northwest VHF Society and ARRL
>>> Member: Hearsat Satellite Monitoring Group.  www.uhf-satcom.com
>>> Member: CVARS-Chehalis Valley Amateur Radio Society
>>> Starchat IRC: Channel = #hearsat
>>> RF Electronics: Starchat IRC: Channel = #rfelectronics
>>> Grid: CN86mr
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Chris Albertson]

On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 5:40 PM, Loren Moline WA7SKT 
wrote:

> Are you talking about locking the 50MHz VCXO to my 10 MH. Standard? I want
> the 25MHz to be from my 10MHz OCXO which is my station standard which will
> locked to GPS eventually.
>

The 25MHz WOULD be locked to your 10MHz GPSDO if you first locked a 100MHz
or 50MHz to the 10MHz then divided down.   Dividers work really well, they
can improve the phase noise, Multipliers always add phase noise.Because
of this I have always wondered why we build our "standard" with such a low
frequency.   Why not a 100MHz GPSDO?   Why 10MHz


> Loren WA7SKT
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 4:01 PM -0800, "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <
> rich...@karlquist.com> wrote:
>
>
> A better and easier way is to phase lock a crystal oscillator.
> I would use a 50 MHz VCXO and divide the output by 2 to get a
> 25 MHz square wave.
>
> Rick N6RK
>
> On 1/18/2017 10:28 AM, Loren Moline WA7SKT wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am looking for a good X5 multiplier to use to generate a 25MHz signal
> from my 10MHz OCXO. I want to divide by 2 and multiply by 5 with a bandpass
> filter in the output and then a 3.3 volt 25MHz signal out.
> >
> >
> > Maybe someone has better ways?
> >
> >
> > Loren Moline  WA7SKT
> >
> > Member: Pacific Northwest VHF Society and ARRL
> > Member: Hearsat Satellite Monitoring Group.  www.uhf-satcom.com
> > Member: CVARS-Chehalis Valley Amateur Radio Society
> > Starchat IRC: Channel = #hearsat
> > RF Electronics: Starchat IRC: Channel = #rfelectronics
> > Grid: CN86mr
> > ___
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> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> >
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[David]

This document covers various methods but I agree with Rick about phase
locking a separate crystal oscillator; harmonic frequency
multiplication is more useful at higher frequencies where other
methods are unavailable:

http://www.qsl.net/va3iul/Frequency_Multipliers/Frequency_Multipliers.pdf

An alternative very simple design I might try is a variation of the
active frequency multiplier where the 5th harmonic is filtered
directly from the output of the digital divide by two stage.

On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 18:28:32 +, you wrote:

>Hello,
>
>I am looking for a good X5 multiplier to use to generate a 25MHz signal from 
>my 10MHz OCXO. I want to divide by 2 and multiply by 5 with a bandpass filter 
>in the output and then a 3.3 volt 25MHz signal out.
>Maybe someone has better ways?
>
>Loren Moline  WA7SKT
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Bob Camp]

Hi

What are you going to use the 25 MHz for? Will it drive any sort of radio? If 
so, cleaning up the phase
noise of the GPSDO is a *very* good idea. With a PLL, you can *subtract* noise. 
With a multiplier you 
can only *add* noise. The narrow bandwidth PLL combined with a low nose VCXO is 
your friend in this case. 

I would take the process one step further. I’d lock up a 100 MHz VCXO to the 10 
MHz. Then you can get
100, 50, 25, and 20 MHz outputs. The 100 MHz is the key if you want to head up 
into the microwave 
region. 

Bob

> On Jan 18, 2017, at 8:40 PM, Loren Moline WA7SKT  wrote:
> 
> Are you talking about locking the 50MHz VCXO to my 10 MH. Standard? I want 
> the 25MHz to be from my 10MHz OCXO which is my station standard which will 
> locked to GPS eventually.
> 
> Loren WA7SKT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 4:01 PM -0800, "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" 
> > wrote:
> 
> 
> A better and easier way is to phase lock a crystal oscillator.
> I would use a 50 MHz VCXO and divide the output by 2 to get a
> 25 MHz square wave.
> 
> Rick N6RK
> 
> On 1/18/2017 10:28 AM, Loren Moline WA7SKT wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> I am looking for a good X5 multiplier to use to generate a 25MHz signal from 
>> my 10MHz OCXO. I want to divide by 2 and multiply by 5 with a bandpass 
>> filter in the output and then a 3.3 volt 25MHz signal out.
>> 
>> 
>> Maybe someone has better ways?
>> 
>> 
>> Loren Moline  WA7SKT
>> 
>> Member: Pacific Northwest VHF Society and ARRL
>> Member: Hearsat Satellite Monitoring Group.  www.uhf-satcom.com
>> Member: CVARS-Chehalis Valley Amateur Radio Society
>> Starchat IRC: Channel = #hearsat
>> RF Electronics: Starchat IRC: Channel = #rfelectronics
>> Grid: CN86mr
>> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Loren Moline WA7SKT]

Are you talking about locking the 50MHz VCXO to my 10 MH. Standard? I want the 
25MHz to be from my 10MHz OCXO which is my station standard which will locked 
to GPS eventually.

Loren WA7SKT




On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 4:01 PM -0800, "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" 
> wrote:


A better and easier way is to phase lock a crystal oscillator.
I would use a 50 MHz VCXO and divide the output by 2 to get a
25 MHz square wave.

Rick N6RK

On 1/18/2017 10:28 AM, Loren Moline WA7SKT wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am looking for a good X5 multiplier to use to generate a 25MHz signal from 
> my 10MHz OCXO. I want to divide by 2 and multiply by 5 with a bandpass filter 
> in the output and then a 3.3 volt 25MHz signal out.
>
>
> Maybe someone has better ways?
>
>
> Loren Moline  WA7SKT
>
> Member: Pacific Northwest VHF Society and ARRL
> Member: Hearsat Satellite Monitoring Group.  www.uhf-satcom.com
> Member: CVARS-Chehalis Valley Amateur Radio Society
> Starchat IRC: Channel = #hearsat
> RF Electronics: Starchat IRC: Channel = #rfelectronics
> Grid: CN86mr
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

A better and easier way is to phase lock a crystal oscillator.
I would use a 50 MHz VCXO and divide the output by 2 to get a
25 MHz square wave.

Rick N6RK

On 1/18/2017 10:28 AM, Loren Moline WA7SKT wrote:

Hello,

I am looking for a good X5 multiplier to use to generate a 25MHz signal from my 
10MHz OCXO. I want to divide by 2 and multiply by 5 with a bandpass filter in 
the output and then a 3.3 volt 25MHz signal out.


Maybe someone has better ways?


Loren Moline  WA7SKT

Member: Pacific Northwest VHF Society and ARRL
Member: Hearsat Satellite Monitoring Group.  www.uhf-satcom.com
Member: CVARS-Chehalis Valley Amateur Radio Society
Starchat IRC: Channel = #hearsat
RF Electronics: Starchat IRC: Channel = #rfelectronics
Grid: CN86mr
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[time-nuts] 10MHz to 25MHz

[Loren Moline WA7SKT]

Hello,

I am looking for a good X5 multiplier to use to generate a 25MHz signal from my 
10MHz OCXO. I want to divide by 2 and multiply by 5 with a bandpass filter in 
the output and then a 3.3 volt 25MHz signal out.


Maybe someone has better ways?


Loren Moline  WA7SKT

Member: Pacific Northwest VHF Society and ARRL
Member: Hearsat Satellite Monitoring Group.  www.uhf-satcom.com
Member: CVARS-Chehalis Valley Amateur Radio Society
Starchat IRC: Channel = #hearsat
RF Electronics: Starchat IRC: Channel = #rfelectronics
Grid: CN86mr
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