Re: [time-nuts] 3GHZ Extender for HP 53131A and 53132A
Hi Arnold, I was just about to reply to your first message and ask at what frequency you'd measured the sensitivity, but then found your follow up:-) I was very happy with the first one so bought a second one for my other HP counter and both seem to be very similar. I've just checked the 53132A against two radio tests sets and with both I'm seeing an indicated sensitivity of close to -50dBm at 1000MHz, but both generators are at their limit there and neither have been recently calibrated at those frequencies so I'm quite happy to concede a few dBm tolerance:-) I'm not too concerned about ultimate sensitivity anyway but, as I commented previously, with them just being very much plug 'n go there wasn't a lot else left to measure:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 19/11/2013 22:50:44 GMT Standard Time, arnold.ti...@gmx.de writes: To be correct, I was a bit fast with my statement before and I have to add, that the sensitivity in fact is higher at the lower frequencies: @ 50 MHz --> -31 dBm @ 100 MHz --> -40 dBm @ 200 MHz --> -50 dBm @ 250 MHz --> -50 dBm @ 500 MHz --> -50 dBm @ 1000 MHz --> -44 dBm @ 2000 MHz --> -37 dBm @ 2500 MHz --> -28 dBm This is perhaps now more helpful for the experts, sorry Nigel and Rick for my previous misleading info, regards Arnold Am 19.11.2013 21:19, schrieb XPMUser: > Hello Nigel, > and hello Rick, > > thank you for the hint to and the remarks concerning > the 3 GHz extender from SQ5ESM. > > I ordered one unit and got it within a few days last week. > I am very happy with it in my 53132A, looks like the original > from HP in detail. Also the manufacturing quality seem to > be of high grade, worth the money. > > I checked the sensitivity using my 8663A up to 2.5 GHz(and > Trimble Thunderbolt for the reference frequency). The service > manual says that the reading shall be stable up to -27 dBm. > My unit is stable up to -28 dBm to -29 dBm, -30 dBm is too > low. So the unit does work very fine and behaves as decribed > by HP, does seem to be a realy good work using quality parts > as stated by the seller. > I have no idea why yours is showing different values. Did you > check it again? > I hope the original design by HP does meet the criteria > mentioned by Rick ;-) > > Thanks again for all the very interesting comments, > > regards, > > Arnold > > > > Am 09.11.2013 01:03, schrieb Richard Karlquist: >> On 2013-11-08 15:49, gandal...@aol.com wrote: >> >>> >>> At 1000 MHz, the highest frequency I can generate right now, I've >>> measured >>> the channel 3 input sensitivity as -50dBm with a sinusoidal signal. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Nigel >>> GM8PZR >>> >> >> This high sensitivity is probably a bad thing, not a good thing. >> It is indicative of a dynamic divider. For a frequency counter >> prescaler, you want a static divider, such as the HP5386 used. >> Dynamic dividers make errors if the signal being measured >> has a broadband noise floor or sufficiently high spurs at any >> frequency. >> >> Rick Karlquist N6RK >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 3GHZ Extender for HP 53131A and 53132A
To be correct, I was a bit fast with my statement before and I have to add, that the sensitivity in fact is higher at the lower frequencies: @ 50 MHz --> -31 dBm @ 100 MHz --> -40 dBm @ 200 MHz --> -50 dBm @ 250 MHz --> -50 dBm @ 500 MHz --> -50 dBm @ 1000 MHz --> -44 dBm @ 2000 MHz --> -37 dBm @ 2500 MHz --> -28 dBm This is perhaps now more helpful for the experts, sorry Nigel and Rick for my previous misleading info, regards Arnold Am 19.11.2013 21:19, schrieb XPMUser: > Hello Nigel, > and hello Rick, > > thank you for the hint to and the remarks concerning > the 3 GHz extender from SQ5ESM. > > I ordered one unit and got it within a few days last week. > I am very happy with it in my 53132A, looks like the original > from HP in detail. Also the manufacturing quality seem to > be of high grade, worth the money. > > I checked the sensitivity using my 8663A up to 2.5 GHz(and > Trimble Thunderbolt for the reference frequency). The service > manual says that the reading shall be stable up to -27 dBm. > My unit is stable up to -28 dBm to -29 dBm, -30 dBm is too > low. So the unit does work very fine and behaves as decribed > by HP, does seem to be a realy good work using quality parts > as stated by the seller. > I have no idea why yours is showing different values. Did you > check it again? > I hope the original design by HP does meet the criteria > mentioned by Rick ;-) > > Thanks again for all the very interesting comments, > > regards, > > Arnold > > > > Am 09.11.2013 01:03, schrieb Richard Karlquist: >> On 2013-11-08 15:49, gandal...@aol.com wrote: >> >>> >>> At 1000 MHz, the highest frequency I can generate right now, I've >>> measured >>> the channel 3 input sensitivity as -50dBm with a sinusoidal signal. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Nigel >>> GM8PZR >>> >> >> This high sensitivity is probably a bad thing, not a good thing. >> It is indicative of a dynamic divider. For a frequency counter >> prescaler, you want a static divider, such as the HP5386 used. >> Dynamic dividers make errors if the signal being measured >> has a broadband noise floor or sufficiently high spurs at any >> frequency. >> >> Rick Karlquist N6RK >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 3GHZ Extender for HP 53131A and 53132A
Hello Nigel, and hello Rick, thank you for the hint to and the remarks concerning the 3 GHz extender from SQ5ESM. I ordered one unit and got it within a few days last week. I am very happy with it in my 53132A, looks like the original from HP in detail. Also the manufacturing quality seem to be of high grade, worth the money. I checked the sensitivity using my 8663A up to 2.5 GHz(and Trimble Thunderbolt for the reference frequency). The service manual says that the reading shall be stable up to -27 dBm. My unit is stable up to -28 dBm to -29 dBm, -30 dBm is too low. So the unit does work very fine and behaves as decribed by HP, does seem to be a realy good work using quality parts as stated by the seller. I have no idea why yours is showing different values. Did you check it again? I hope the original design by HP does meet the criteria mentioned by Rick ;-) Thanks again for all the very interesting comments, regards, Arnold Am 09.11.2013 01:03, schrieb Richard Karlquist: > On 2013-11-08 15:49, gandal...@aol.com wrote: > >> >> At 1000 MHz, the highest frequency I can generate right now, I've >> measured >> the channel 3 input sensitivity as -50dBm with a sinusoidal signal. >> >> Regards >> >> Nigel >> GM8PZR >> > > This high sensitivity is probably a bad thing, not a good thing. > It is indicative of a dynamic divider. For a frequency counter > prescaler, you want a static divider, such as the HP5386 used. > Dynamic dividers make errors if the signal being measured > has a broadband noise floor or sufficiently high spurs at any > frequency. > > Rick Karlquist N6RK > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 3GHZ Extender for HP 53131A and 53132A
Hi I suspect it starts with an input source stability analysis on the actual chip and layout used. You would need some pretty good models for the counter chip to do that. That may only be the first layer to the process... Bob On Nov 9, 2013, at 8:58 AM, Peter Gottlieb wrote: > Rick, > > Can you point us to a method and schematic of a better way to make such a > front end for a counter? > > Peter > > > On 11/9/2013 6:26 AM, gandal...@aol.com wrote: >> Hi Rick >> Thanks for the clarification. >> I'd thought at first you were suggesting these replacements were somehow at >> fault in comparison with the original design, which was the bit I couldn't >> understand since they seemed to be virtually identical, rather than >> commenting on the original design itself. >> I'd quoted the sensitivity mainly because that seemed to be just about the >> only thing left to measure other than to say, "I plugged it in and it >> worked ok":-), but undertand the limitations better now >> I still feel comfortable recommending these as a great value substitute >> for the HP original. >> Regards >> Nigel >> GM8PZR >> - >> Dynamic dividers oscillate when not driven. Static dividers are like >> ordinary flip flops used for logic and do not oscillate when the clock >> signal is removed. >> >> The MB510 is probably nothing great, even if it was used by HP >> in some counters. I personally was to blame for designing the MB506 >> into the 5334B counter. I was trying to reduce factory cost. >> I knew perfectly well it didn't work all that well. It was at >> least no worse that the divider used in the 5334A, which was >> made by HP in Santa Clara and cost $100. >> The dividers that were made by HP in Santa Rosa were much better >> because they were static. The 5386 used these. They were also >> not cheap. >> >> Rick Karlquist N6RK >> HP 5334B Project Manager >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 3GHZ Extender for HP 53131A and 53132A
Rick, Can you point us to a method and schematic of a better way to make such a front end for a counter? Peter On 11/9/2013 6:26 AM, gandal...@aol.com wrote: Hi Rick Thanks for the clarification. I'd thought at first you were suggesting these replacements were somehow at fault in comparison with the original design, which was the bit I couldn't understand since they seemed to be virtually identical, rather than commenting on the original design itself. I'd quoted the sensitivity mainly because that seemed to be just about the only thing left to measure other than to say, "I plugged it in and it worked ok":-), but undertand the limitations better now I still feel comfortable recommending these as a great value substitute for the HP original. Regards Nigel GM8PZR - Dynamic dividers oscillate when not driven. Static dividers are like ordinary flip flops used for logic and do not oscillate when the clock signal is removed. The MB510 is probably nothing great, even if it was used by HP in some counters. I personally was to blame for designing the MB506 into the 5334B counter. I was trying to reduce factory cost. I knew perfectly well it didn't work all that well. It was at least no worse that the divider used in the 5334A, which was made by HP in Santa Clara and cost $100. The dividers that were made by HP in Santa Rosa were much better because they were static. The 5386 used these. They were also not cheap. Rick Karlquist N6RK HP 5334B Project Manager ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 3GHZ Extender for HP 53131A and 53132A
Hi Rick Thanks for the clarification. I'd thought at first you were suggesting these replacements were somehow at fault in comparison with the original design, which was the bit I couldn't understand since they seemed to be virtually identical, rather than commenting on the original design itself. I'd quoted the sensitivity mainly because that seemed to be just about the only thing left to measure other than to say, "I plugged it in and it worked ok":-), but undertand the limitations better now I still feel comfortable recommending these as a great value substitute for the HP original. Regards Nigel GM8PZR - Dynamic dividers oscillate when not driven. Static dividers are like ordinary flip flops used for logic and do not oscillate when the clock signal is removed. The MB510 is probably nothing great, even if it was used by HP in some counters. I personally was to blame for designing the MB506 into the 5334B counter. I was trying to reduce factory cost. I knew perfectly well it didn't work all that well. It was at least no worse that the divider used in the 5334A, which was made by HP in Santa Clara and cost $100. The dividers that were made by HP in Santa Rosa were much better because they were static. The 5386 used these. They were also not cheap. Rick Karlquist N6RK HP 5334B Project Manager ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 3GHZ Extender for HP 53131A and 53132A
On 2013-11-08 18:07, Peter Gottlieb wrote: Maybe he means fixed vs. automatic gain (or threshold)? Perhaps a worry about picking up higher frequency noise on a lower frequency but larger signal you are looking to measure? Peter The problem is the opposite. Low frequency noise will wipe out measurement of high frequency signals. They used to test the 5334A/B above 1 GHz by driving it with an HP 8660 followed by a 1 GHz high pass filter. Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 3GHZ Extender for HP 53131A and 53132A
Maybe he means fixed vs. automatic gain (or threshold)? Perhaps a worry about picking up higher frequency noise on a lower frequency but larger signal you are looking to measure? Peter On 11/8/2013 8:38 PM, gandal...@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 09/11/2013 01:30:14 GMT Standard Time, hmur...@megapathdsl.net writes: rich...@karlquist.com said: This high sensitivity is probably a bad thing, not a good thing. It is indicative of a dynamic divider. For a frequency counter prescaler, you want a static divider, such as the HP5386 used. Dynamic dividers make errors if the signal being measured has a broadband noise floor or sufficiently high spurs at any frequency. What do static and dynamic mean in that context? Is it the same as DRAM vs SRAM? If so, I don't see any obvious way that translates into one works and the other doesn't. I wondered that. cc.ee.ntu.edu.tw/~jrilee/course/COMMIC08/CommIC_07.pdf The MB510 looks to be a series of flip-flops so presumably would be classified as a static divider? Regards Nigel GM8PZR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 3GHZ Extender for HP 53131A and 53132A
On 2013-11-08 17:38, gandal...@aol.com wrote: What do static and dynamic mean in that context? Is it the same as DRAM vs SRAM? If so, I don't see any obvious way that translates into one works The MB510 looks to be a series of flip-flops so presumably would be classified as a static divider? Regards Nigel GM8PZR Dynamic dividers oscillate when not driven. Static dividers are like ordinary flip flops used for logic and do not oscillate when the clock signal is removed. The MB510 is probably nothing great, even if it was used by HP in some counters. I personally was to blame for designing the MB506 into the 5334B counter. I was trying to reduce factory cost. I knew perfectly well it didn't work all that well. It was at least no worse that the divider used in the 5334A, which was made by HP in Santa Clara and cost $100. The dividers that were made by HP in Santa Rosa were much better because they were static. The 5386 used these. They were also not cheap. Rick Karlquist N6RK HP 5334B Project Manager ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 3GHZ Extender for HP 53131A and 53132A
In a message dated 09/11/2013 01:30:14 GMT Standard Time, hmur...@megapathdsl.net writes: rich...@karlquist.com said: > This high sensitivity is probably a bad thing, not a good thing. It is > indicative of a dynamic divider. For a frequency counter prescaler, you > want a static divider, such as the HP5386 used. Dynamic dividers make errors > if the signal being measured has a broadband noise floor or sufficiently > high spurs at any frequency. What do static and dynamic mean in that context? Is it the same as DRAM vs SRAM? If so, I don't see any obvious way that translates into one works and the other doesn't. I wondered that. cc.ee.ntu.edu.tw/~jrilee/course/COMMIC08/CommIC_07.pdf The MB510 looks to be a series of flip-flops so presumably would be classified as a static divider? Regards Nigel GM8PZR -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 3GHZ Extender for HP 53131A and 53132A
rich...@karlquist.com said: > This high sensitivity is probably a bad thing, not a good thing. It is > indicative of a dynamic divider. For a frequency counter prescaler, you > want a static divider, such as the HP5386 used. Dynamic dividers make errors > if the signal being measured has a broadband noise floor or sufficiently > high spurs at any frequency. What do static and dynamic mean in that context? Is it the same as DRAM vs SRAM? If so, I don't see any obvious way that translates into one works and the other doesn't. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 3GHZ Extender for HP 53131A and 53132A
Hi Rick As far as I'm aware this is pretty much a copy of the HP original which used a Fujitsu, or similar, MB510-PF prescaler, so a sort of "what you see is what you get" situation:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 09/11/2013 00:03:58 GMT Standard Time, rich...@karlquist.com writes: On 2013-11-08 15:49, gandal...@aol.com wrote: > > At 1000 MHz, the highest frequency I can generate right now, I've > measured > the channel 3 input sensitivity as -50dBm with a sinusoidal signal. > > Regards > > Nigel > GM8PZR > This high sensitivity is probably a bad thing, not a good thing. It is indicative of a dynamic divider. For a frequency counter prescaler, you want a static divider, such as the HP5386 used. Dynamic dividers make errors if the signal being measured has a broadband noise floor or sufficiently high spurs at any frequency. Rick Karlquist N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 3GHZ Extender for HP 53131A and 53132A
Wouldn't an attenuator solve that? On 11/8/2013 7:03 PM, Richard Karlquist wrote: On 2013-11-08 15:49, gandal...@aol.com wrote: At 1000 MHz, the highest frequency I can generate right now, I've measured the channel 3 input sensitivity as -50dBm with a sinusoidal signal. Regards Nigel GM8PZR This high sensitivity is probably a bad thing, not a good thing. It is indicative of a dynamic divider. For a frequency counter prescaler, you want a static divider, such as the HP5386 used. Dynamic dividers make errors if the signal being measured has a broadband noise floor or sufficiently high spurs at any frequency. Rick Karlquist N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 3GHZ Extender for HP 53131A and 53132A
On 2013-11-08 15:49, gandal...@aol.com wrote: At 1000 MHz, the highest frequency I can generate right now, I've measured the channel 3 input sensitivity as -50dBm with a sinusoidal signal. Regards Nigel GM8PZR This high sensitivity is probably a bad thing, not a good thing. It is indicative of a dynamic divider. For a frequency counter prescaler, you want a static divider, such as the HP5386 used. Dynamic dividers make errors if the signal being measured has a broadband noise floor or sufficiently high spurs at any frequency. Rick Karlquist N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] 3GHZ Extender for HP 53131A and 53132A
I suppose this might be a bit off topic, but for those of us with these HP counters there's been very good deal running on 3GHz extender boards on Ebay for the past few weeks. These aren't HP originals but they are new plug 'n play alternatives, certainly a very good clone, and excellent value at $98 BIN, or with an auction option starting at $75 if you fancy your luck. The current auction, if not already sold, is number 111210845150. Usual disclaimer, I have no vested interest other than as a happy customer, and he doesn't seem to need much help from me to sell them anyway:-), but I thought some others here might be interested. I bought one last week, shipping from Poland to the UK took just a few days, and was sufficiently impressed to buy another one earlier this evening, and no I probably didn't really need one, let alone two, but they are very nice:-) At 1000 MHz, the highest frequency I can generate right now, I've measured the channel 3 input sensitivity as -50dBm with a sinusoidal signal. Regards Nigel GM8PZR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
