Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Mark Sims wrote: Sulphur flower is ground sulphur raw sulphur. Flowers of sulphur is precipitated out of sulphuric acid. The distinction is subtle, but can be quite deadly if you do pyrotechnics. Flowers of sulphur can be highly acidic and reacts violently with chlorate compounds. Hmm... what colour would mercury give to the pyrotechnics? Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
In France, it is known as fleur de souffre, which translates litterally to flower of sulphur. In French, there is no confusion possible between the terms flower (fleur) and flour (farine). Didier -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 10:05 PM To: Bruce Griffiths Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material Among chemists, it's flour of sulpher. Flowers is an (incorrect archeic) popular name, like quicksilver. -John === It is known (for whatever reason) as flowers of sulphur by gardeners medical practitioners (althernative and conventional) and others outside the US. http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/fl/flower+of+sulphur.html http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/sulphur.htm http://mysite.du.edu/%7Ejcalvert/phys/sulphur.htm It is a powder produced by sublimation of sulphur. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
In my 1963 EH Sargent and Company catalog, they list: Sulfur, USP, Precipitated Powder Sulfur, NF Sublimed Powder Sulfur, Sublimed Flowers (Tech) Sulfur, Lump (Roll) And something about Seconds, NIST Grade... -Chuck Harris Don Latham wrote: The connection is alchemical, Don - Original Message - From: Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz To: j...@quik.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material It is known (for whatever reason) as flowers of sulphur by gardeners medical practitioners (althernative and conventional) and others outside the US. http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/fl/flower+of+sulphur.html ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
J. Forster wrote: The attached spectrum is from a Circline Fluourescent that screws into a table lamp. This is the type of spectrum I would like to avoid. Continuous spectrum and warm white is my preference for normal light. Fluorescent sky blue white is what I don't want. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
d.sei...@comcast.net wrote: I took apart the last dead one just for that purpose. I initially eyed the 105deg Al cap, but it was dead, along with one of the xstrs (hole in package). The film caps, diodes and fuse are still good too. As is the tube- don't know what I'll do with that. Sounds to me that the electronics died... rather than the bulb. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Also they are very sensitive to heat, so do not use them in an enclosed fixture. I have been burned (figuratively) with these two gotchas, there may be more. The one that lasts the longest in my house is the outside light at my back door. It is turned on once a day around 6-7 PM and off in the morning, so about 12 hours a day every day, and it lasts for years at that rate. Those in the bathroom that get to be turned on and off several times a day for a relatively short time don't do nearly as well. Didier -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Ed Palmer Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 8:29 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material The most important thing to remember about CFLs is *don't* use them anywhere that they will be turned on and off a lot (e.g. bathrooms). Use them where they'll be turned on and left on. Short on / off cycles can reduce their lifetime to 15% of normal. Here's a report on the subject: http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/nlpip/publicationDetails.asp?id=114type=1 Ed d.sei...@comcast.net wrote: And now they are trying to do away with edison bulbs. I hope the LED equivalents are better, because the CF bulbs seem to last less in most home apps. (I have standard bulbs that have outlasted multiple CF bulbs in similar applications) In particular, I have a 75W desk lamp bulb which has been in use since '97 and gets more hours than the ceiling CFs in the same room, which have been replaced at least 3 times... They are not enclosed or abused. I was really PO'd at the short life of my first set of CF lamps. They seem to be doing better now, but still there is no great enhanced life span. Dave - Original Message - From: Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 2:28:31 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material Warning: Way OT When the vacuum tube was born, there were half as many people on this planet, and global climate change wasn't a problem. Very few people will talk about populution. It's as if there was a blind spot in the brain. Maybe there's no intelligent life in the Universe because all life evolves with similar selection pressures. Once technology removes natural predators (or stops world wars with the atomic bomb), population heads for the sky until the big die-off. If other people don't have a problem with having four kids, I have no problem with using vacuum tubes and Edison bulbs. All in my humble opinion, of course. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: Rex Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:50 PM Steve Rooke wrote: Wasn't life so much easier with valves (tubes)... Nostalgia? Valves (tubes) warmer in close proximity, yes. Global warming should make that, on average, less helpful. glowing bulbs Other than that memory, and certain trade-offs at big Rf power, I'll say I no longer encourage the glowing bulbs for most things. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Hi At the cost target on those bulb's it's always a race to see who dies first. The same can be said of conventional fluorescent fixtures. I have some big ones in the shop downstairs. The no name electronic ballasts that came with them all died in the first two years. I replaced them with name brand parts and they have run fine ever since (at least 3 years so far). All the fixtures are on their first set of bulbs. Bob On Jan 30, 2010, at 8:26 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote: d.sei...@comcast.net wrote: I took apart the last dead one just for that purpose. I initially eyed the 105deg Al cap, but it was dead, along with one of the xstrs (hole in package). The film caps, diodes and fuse are still good too. As is the tube- don't know what I'll do with that. Sounds to me that the electronics died... rather than the bulb. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
I have dissected many dead CFL's, and the key component failure is the 10uf 350V electrolytic capacitor. Most of these bulbs caution against using them in a base up configuration which of course is how most of my CFL's are operated. I have several rooms that are lit exclusively with CFL's, and I find that for best life, I have to leave them on all the time. That is what EPA has found too! CFL's may take less power for a given illumination, but the owners leave them on far longer than incandescent, and the net result is greater power consumption overall. Add that to the mandatory drop of mercury in each, and I really can't see how they can sell them at all. I got two for free from my power company (They hid the charge on my bill, until the courts made them reverse it...) and included with the CFL's was an elaborate procedure for cleaning up a broken CFL. It involved opening all of the windows, and leaving the room for a couple of hours, and then, with a gloved hand putting the pieces on newspaper, and folding the newspaper up and putting it in a 1 gallon zip lock baggie. To clean up the broken bits, you are supposed to vacuum the area with a fresh vacuum cleaner bag, and then put the vacuum cleaner bag in a ziplock baggie, and take the remains off to the hazardous waste disposal facility. -Chuck Harris Magnus Danielson wrote: d.sei...@comcast.net wrote: I took apart the last dead one just for that purpose. I initially eyed the 105deg Al cap, but it was dead, along with one of the xstrs (hole in package). The film caps, diodes and fuse are still good too. As is the tube- don't know what I'll do with that. Sounds to me that the electronics died... rather than the bulb. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
In general I agree, but the blue-white LED flashlight is pretty useful for looking inside electronics. -John = J. Forster wrote: The attached spectrum is from a Circline Fluourescent that screws into a table lamp. This is the type of spectrum I would like to avoid. Continuous spectrum and warm white is my preference for normal light. Fluorescent sky blue white is what I don't want. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
There are also large differences in rated lifetime; look at the fine print on the package. I've had some early Philips units that I used in a timer-driven lamp; they were on for hours every day. The lamp lasted for years and years and I eventually threw it out because it had gotten dim (the tube was visibly blackened inside), but it was still working. It was rated for 1 hours, and probably reached that before I junked it. On the other hand, I've had some cheap Ikea lamps fail in ceiling lights in little more than a year. The electronics self-destructed. Took a close look at the package for a new one, and they are rated for only 2000 hours - which is easy to use up in a year in a room where the lights are on 6 hours every evening. Now, using CFLs of any type reduces electricity use compared to incandescent, and that's worthwhile in many applications. But CFLs also add a bunch of electronics parts to the waste stream when they are thrown out - they're much worse than incandescents in that respect. So when I use fluorescents, I prefer replaceable-tube units (where the electronics in the ballast will last for decades, not be replaced every couple of years). In places where I need a screw-in self-ballast type, I look for the more expensive 10,000 hour types instead of the cheap 2000-hour ones. And, as someone else pointed out, it doesn't make much sense to use CFLs in applications where they are turned on and off a lot, since their life will be much shorter than rated. (But LEDs should be fine for this, once the price comes down a bunch). Dave On 30/01/2010 05:31, Didier Juges wrote: Also they are very sensitive to heat, so do not use them in an enclosed fixture. I have been burned (figuratively) with these two gotchas, there may be more. The one that lasts the longest in my house is the outside light at my back door. It is turned on once a day around 6-7 PM and off in the morning, so about 12 hours a day every day, and it lasts for years at that rate. Those in the bathroom that get to be turned on and off several times a day for a relatively short time don't do nearly as well. Didier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Chuck Harris wrote: I have several rooms that are lit exclusively with CFL's, and I find that for best life, I have to leave them on all the time. That is what EPA has found too! CFL's may take less power for a given illumination, but the owners leave them on far longer than incandescent, and the net result is greater power consumption overall. Here's an interesting bit of opposite experience. When I had a restaurant, I had a walk-in freezer. I wanted to know when the compressor was running so I wired a light socket across the compressor contactor coil terminals and located it where I could see it from the dining room where I sat when not busy. I tried all sorts of light in that thing. Long life, rough duty, pilot light, none of them could stand the 2-3 times an hour cycling. Then I installed a little 7 watt organ pipe CFL. It lasted over 5 years and was still going strong when I closed the restaurant. Add that to the mandatory drop of mercury in each, and I really can't see how they can sell them at all. Now Chuck, don't go getting all chemophobic on us now! I got two for free from my power company (They hid the charge on my bill, until the courts made them reverse it...) and included with the CFL's was an elaborate procedure for cleaning up a broken CFL. It involved opening all of the windows, and leaving the room for a couple of hours, and then, with a gloved hand putting the pieces on newspaper, and folding the newspaper up and putting it in a 1 gallon zip lock baggie. To clean up the broken bits, you are supposed to vacuum the area with a fresh vacuum cleaner bag, and then put the vacuum cleaner bag in a ziplock baggie, and take the remains off to the hazardous waste disposal facility. That's embarrassing to read, it's so stupid. Like some meaningless worship ceremony to mother Gaia or something. Geez, there's less than 10 milligrams of merc in a 100 watt CFL. That is a harmless amount, especially considering that elemental mercury is fairly harmless. What'll they come up with next, HAZMAT team if you spill some paint thinner? John -- John DeArmond Tellico Plains, Occupied TN http://www.neon-john.com-- email from here http://www.johndearmond.com -- Best damned Blog on the net PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
NeonJohn wrote: Chuck Harris wrote: I have several rooms that are lit exclusively with CFL's, and I find that for best life, I have to leave them on all the time. That is what EPA has found too! CFL's may take less power for a given illumination, but the owners leave them on far longer than incandescent, and the net result is greater power consumption overall. Here's an interesting bit of opposite experience. When I had a restaurant, I had a walk-in freezer. I wanted to know when the compressor was running so I wired a light socket across the compressor contactor coil terminals and located it where I could see it from the dining room where I sat when not busy. I tried all sorts of light in that thing. Long life, rough duty, pilot light, none of them could stand the 2-3 times an hour cycling. Then I installed a little 7 watt organ pipe CFL. It lasted over 5 years and was still going strong when I closed the restaurant. Add that to the mandatory drop of mercury in each, and I really can't see how they can sell them at all. Now Chuck, don't go getting all chemophobic on us now! I got two for free from my power company (They hid the charge on my bill, until the courts made them reverse it...) and included with the CFL's was an elaborate procedure for cleaning up a broken CFL. It involved opening all of the windows, and leaving the room for a couple of hours, and then, with a gloved hand putting the pieces on newspaper, and folding the newspaper up and putting it in a 1 gallon zip lock baggie. To clean up the broken bits, you are supposed to vacuum the area with a fresh vacuum cleaner bag, and then put the vacuum cleaner bag in a ziplock baggie, and take the remains off to the hazardous waste disposal facility. That's embarrassing to read, it's so stupid. Like some meaningless worship ceremony to mother Gaia or something. Geez, there's less than 10 milligrams of merc in a 100 watt CFL. That is a harmless amount, especially considering that elemental mercury is fairly harmless. What'll they come up with next, HAZMAT team if you spill some paint thinner? John If the intention is to cleanup the mercury rather than just the glass and relatively non toxic phosphor then the cleanup procedure is contrary to the method outlined in: http://www.p2pays.org/ref/15/14605.htm If one is paranoid about mercury spills sprinkling the debris with flowers of sulphur is a good idea especially if one intends to repeatedly break CFLs in the same location. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Wait until they find out there is arsenic in LEDs! cheers, Neville Michie On 31/01/2010, at 7:50 AM, NeonJohn wrote: Chuck Harris wrote: I have several rooms that are lit exclusively with CFL's, and I find that for best life, I have to leave them on all the time. That is what EPA has found too! CFL's may take less power for a given illumination, but the owners leave them on far longer than incandescent, and the net result is greater power consumption overall. Here's an interesting bit of opposite experience. When I had a restaurant, I had a walk-in freezer. I wanted to know when the compressor was running so I wired a light socket across the compressor contactor coil terminals and located it where I could see it from the dining room where I sat when not busy. I tried all sorts of light in that thing. Long life, rough duty, pilot light, none of them could stand the 2-3 times an hour cycling. Then I installed a little 7 watt organ pipe CFL. It lasted over 5 years and was still going strong when I closed the restaurant. Add that to the mandatory drop of mercury in each, and I really can't see how they can sell them at all. Now Chuck, don't go getting all chemophobic on us now! I got two for free from my power company (They hid the charge on my bill, until the courts made them reverse it...) and included with the CFL's was an elaborate procedure for cleaning up a broken CFL. It involved opening all of the windows, and leaving the room for a couple of hours, and then, with a gloved hand putting the pieces on newspaper, and folding the newspaper up and putting it in a 1 gallon zip lock baggie. To clean up the broken bits, you are supposed to vacuum the area with a fresh vacuum cleaner bag, and then put the vacuum cleaner bag in a ziplock baggie, and take the remains off to the hazardous waste disposal facility. That's embarrassing to read, it's so stupid. Like some meaningless worship ceremony to mother Gaia or something. Geez, there's less than 10 milligrams of merc in a 100 watt CFL. That is a harmless amount, especially considering that elemental mercury is fairly harmless. What'll they come up with next, HAZMAT team if you spill some paint thinner? John -- John DeArmond Tellico Plains, Occupied TN http://www.neon-john.com-- email from here http://www.johndearmond.com -- Best damned Blog on the net PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
NeonJohn wrote: Chuck Harris wrote: I have several rooms that are lit exclusively with CFL's, and I find that for best life, I have to leave them on all the time. That is what EPA has found too! CFL's may take less power for a given illumination, but the owners leave them on far longer than incandescent, and the net result is greater power consumption overall. Here's an interesting bit of opposite experience. When I had a restaurant, I had a walk-in freezer. I wanted to know when the compressor was running so I wired a light socket across the compressor contactor coil terminals and located it where I could see it from the dining room where I sat when not busy. Having looked at the circuitry, I can't see any real reason why cycling would be hard on the usual CFL. The filaments glow red the entire time they are on anyway, and the inverter is a simple FET multivibrator. I think the reason people leave them on longer than the equivalent incandescent is CFL's take a while to ramp up to full brilliance, and they reason that at 1/4 the power draw, they are essentially free to run. In any case, I know I leave them on longer than I would if they were instant on... for real, and EPA has noticed that others do the same. I tried all sorts of light in that thing. Long life, rough duty, pilot light, none of them could stand the 2-3 times an hour cycling. Then I installed a little 7 watt organ pipe CFL. It lasted over 5 years and was still going strong when I closed the restaurant. Add that to the mandatory drop of mercury in each, and I really can't see how they can sell them at all. Now Chuck, don't go getting all chemophobic on us now! Me? With my chemistry and nuke background? Not likely! I am just making a statement based on my observations of the eco-hysteria the powers that be seem to exhibit. I got two for free from my power company (They hid the charge on my bill, until the courts made them reverse it...) and included with the CFL's was an elaborate procedure for cleaning up a broken CFL. It involved opening all of the windows, and leaving the room for a couple of hours, and then, with a gloved hand putting the pieces on newspaper, and folding the newspaper up and putting it in a 1 gallon zip lock baggie. To clean up the broken bits, you are supposed to vacuum the area with a fresh vacuum cleaner bag, and then put the vacuum cleaner bag in a ziplock baggie, and take the remains off to the hazardous waste disposal facility. That's embarrassing to read, it's so stupid. Like some meaningless worship ceremony to mother Gaia or something. That's why I am sharing. Geez, there's less than 10 milligrams of merc in a 100 watt CFL. That is a harmless amount, especially considering that elemental mercury is fairly harmless. Yes, and no. When mercury hits the ground, it splatters into hundreds of miniballs of mercury. When you walk on them, they further fracture, and by the time you are done, you have increased the surface area of the mini drop of mercury greatly... probably thousands of times. That increases the mercury vapor emitted into the room. Is it harmful? Maybe. Maybe not. What'll they come up with next, HAZMAT team if you spill some paint thinner? As the laws are currently written, if you intentionally pour any amount of gasoline, or paint thinner onto the ground you are committing a crime. -Chuck Harris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Bruce Griffiths wrote: If the intention is to cleanup the mercury rather than just the glass and relatively non toxic phosphor then the cleanup procedure is contrary to the method outlined in: http://www.p2pays.org/ref/15/14605.htm If one is paranoid about mercury spills sprinkling the debris with flowers of sulphur is a good idea especially if one intends to repeatedly break CFLs in the same location. Bruce I think they might have gotten a little push back from the sheeple if they suggested sprinkling any kind of chemical on Mom's carpet. -Chuck Harris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
According to the paper that was linked earlier, there are 3 types of fluorescent bulbs, some have no heater at all and are started with a high voltage pulse that causes accelerated damage. Those suffer from the most life reduction when cycled. Those with the always on heater suffer the least, but are the least efficient. Didier -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 4:23 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material NeonJohn wrote: Chuck Harris wrote: I have several rooms that are lit exclusively with CFL's, and I find that for best life, I have to leave them on all the time. That is what EPA has found too! CFL's may take less power for a given illumination, but the owners leave them on far longer than incandescent, and the net result is greater power consumption overall. Here's an interesting bit of opposite experience. When I had a restaurant, I had a walk-in freezer. I wanted to know when the compressor was running so I wired a light socket across the compressor contactor coil terminals and located it where I could see it from the dining room where I sat when not busy. Having looked at the circuitry, I can't see any real reason why cycling would be hard on the usual CFL. The filaments glow red the entire time they are on anyway, and the inverter is a simple FET multivibrator. I think the reason people leave them on longer than the equivalent incandescent is CFL's take a while to ramp up to full brilliance, and they reason that at 1/4 the power draw, they are essentially free to run. In any case, I know I leave them on longer than I would if they were instant on... for real, and EPA has noticed that others do the same. I tried all sorts of light in that thing. Long life, rough duty, pilot light, none of them could stand the 2-3 times an hour cycling. Then I installed a little 7 watt organ pipe CFL. It lasted over 5 years and was still going strong when I closed the restaurant. Add that to the mandatory drop of mercury in each, and I really can't see how they can sell them at all. Now Chuck, don't go getting all chemophobic on us now! Me? With my chemistry and nuke background? Not likely! I am just making a statement based on my observations of the eco-hysteria the powers that be seem to exhibit. I got two for free from my power company (They hid the charge on my bill, until the courts made them reverse it...) and included with the CFL's was an elaborate procedure for cleaning up a broken CFL. It involved opening all of the windows, and leaving the room for a couple of hours, and then, with a gloved hand putting the pieces on newspaper, and folding the newspaper up and putting it in a 1 gallon zip lock baggie. To clean up the broken bits, you are supposed to vacuum the area with a fresh vacuum cleaner bag, and then put the vacuum cleaner bag in a ziplock baggie, and take the remains off to the hazardous waste disposal facility. That's embarrassing to read, it's so stupid. Like some meaningless worship ceremony to mother Gaia or something. That's why I am sharing. Geez, there's less than 10 milligrams of merc in a 100 watt CFL. That is a harmless amount, especially considering that elemental mercury is fairly harmless. Yes, and no. When mercury hits the ground, it splatters into hundreds of miniballs of mercury. When you walk on them, they further fracture, and by the time you are done, you have increased the surface area of the mini drop of mercury greatly... probably thousands of times. That increases the mercury vapor emitted into the room. Is it harmful? Maybe. Maybe not. What'll they come up with next, HAZMAT team if you spill some paint thinner? As the laws are currently written, if you intentionally pour any amount of gasoline, or paint thinner onto the ground you are committing a crime. -Chuck Harris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Just about every doctor's surgery or emergency room more than about 15 years old will have had more than one thermometer broken in it. I'm sure there are lots of little balls of mercury lurking in carpet fibres or between tiles in those environments. It doesn't seem to have surfaced as an occupation health hazard. You're more likely to encounter lead or sharp steel poisoning in inner city ERs :-( Morris Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:22:30 -0500 From: Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material Yes, and no. When mercury hits the ground, it splatters into hundreds of miniballs of mercury. When you walk on them, they further fracture, and by the time you are done, you have increased the surface area of the mini drop of mercury greatly... probably thousands of times. That increases the mercury vapor emitted into the room. Is it harmful? Maybe. Maybe not. *** ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Frankly, I think today if you breathe, pee, poo, or do ANYTHING at all you are likely breaking some law, silly or otherwise. FWIW, -John === [snip] As the laws are currently written, if you intentionally pour any amount of gasoline, or paint thinner onto the ground you are committing a crime. -Chuck Harris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
It is known (for whatever reason) as flowers of sulphur by gardeners medical practitioners (althernative and conventional) and others outside the US. http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/fl/flower+of+sulphur.html http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/sulphur.htm http://mysite.du.edu/%7Ejcalvert/phys/sulphur.htm It is a powder produced by sublimation of sulphur. Bruce J. Forster wrote: It's NOT flowers it flour of sulphur... as in a fine ground powder... think wheat flour as is used to bake bread. -John === If one is paranoid about mercury spills sprinkling the debris with flowers of sulphur is a good idea especially if one intends to repeatedly break CFLs in the same location. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Sulphur flower is ground sulphur raw sulphur. Flowers of sulphur is precipitated out of sulphuric acid. The distinction is subtle, but can be quite deadly if you do pyrotechnics. Flowers of sulphur can be highly acidic and reacts violently with chlorate compounds. - It's NOT flowers it flour of sulphur... as in a fine ground powder... think wheat flour as is used to bake bread. _ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390706/direct/01/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Among chemists, it's flour of sulpher. Flowers is an (incorrect archeic) popular name, like quicksilver. -John === It is known (for whatever reason) as flowers of sulphur by gardeners medical practitioners (althernative and conventional) and others outside the US. http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/fl/flower+of+sulphur.html http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/sulphur.htm http://mysite.du.edu/%7Ejcalvert/phys/sulphur.htm It is a powder produced by sublimation of sulphur. Bruce J. Forster wrote: It's NOT flowers it flour of sulphur... as in a fine ground powder... think wheat flour as is used to bake bread. -John === If one is paranoid about mercury spills sprinkling the debris with flowers of sulphur is a good idea especially if one intends to repeatedly break CFLs in the same location. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material is not the subject
When did this list become a discussion of Chemistry? Is there a time list I can join? Not that I've never been off topic, or never learned something from an OT discussion, but this brings to mind dead horses and the beating thereof. I'll bet there is a better list for this subject, and that it's just full of shared ignorance. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: J. Forster Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 10:05 PM To: Bruce Griffiths Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material Among chemists, it's flour of sulpher. Flowers is an (incorrect archeic) popular name, like quicksilver. -John === It is known (for whatever reason) as flowers of sulphur by gardeners medical practitioners (althernative and conventional) and others outside the US. http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/fl/flower+of+sulphur.html http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/sulphur.htm http://mysite.du.edu/%7Ejcalvert/phys/sulphur.htm It is a powder produced by sublimation of sulphur. Bruce J. Forster wrote: It's NOT flowers it flour of sulphur... as in a fine ground powder... think wheat flour as is used to bake bread. -John === If one is paranoid about mercury spills sprinkling the debris with flowers of sulphur is a good idea especially if one intends to repeatedly break CFLs in the same location. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
The connection is alchemical, Don - Original Message - From: Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz To: j...@quik.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material It is known (for whatever reason) as flowers of sulphur by gardeners medical practitioners (althernative and conventional) and others outside the US. http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/fl/flower+of+sulphur.html http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/sulphur.htm http://mysite.du.edu/%7Ejcalvert/phys/sulphur.htm It is a powder produced by sublimation of sulphur. Bruce J. Forster wrote: It's NOT flowers it flour of sulphur... as in a fine ground powder... think wheat flour as is used to bake bread. -John === If one is paranoid about mercury spills sprinkling the debris with flowers of sulphur is a good idea especially if one intends to repeatedly break CFLs in the same location. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Hi At least down here the CF lamps seem to run at least 2X and probably more than that compared to the old style bulbs. There are 20 of them in this room so that's a pretty good sample. The big thing I notice is that the room does not self heat as much with 1/10th the power going into it. Right now a little self heating might be nice. Not so much so in the summer The only issue I've seen is that they don't seem to like tightly enclosed fixtures very much. They seem to need a much lower temperature at the base than an old style bulb. In a can light, or most open fixtures that's not an problem. In some covered / enclosed celling fixtures they don't seem to get the cooling they need. Bob On Jan 29, 2010, at 2:32 AM, d.sei...@comcast.net wrote: And now they are trying to do away with edison bulbs. I hope the LED equivalents are better, because the CF bulbs seem to last less in most home apps. (I have standard bulbs that have outlasted multiple CF bulbs in similar applications) In particular, I have a 75W desk lamp bulb which has been in use since '97 and gets more hours than the ceiling CFs in the same room, which have been replaced at least 3 times... They are not enclosed or abused. I was really PO'd at the short life of my first set of CF lamps. They seem to be doing better now, but still there is no great enhanced life span. Dave - Original Message - From: Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 2:28:31 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material Warning: Way OT When the vacuum tube was born, there were half as many people on this planet, and global climate change wasn't a problem. Very few people will talk about populution. It's as if there was a blind spot in the brain. Maybe there's no intelligent life in the Universe because all life evolves with similar selection pressures. Once technology removes natural predators (or stops world wars with the atomic bomb), population heads for the sky until the big die-off. If other people don't have a problem with having four kids, I have no problem with using vacuum tubes and Edison bulbs. All in my humble opinion, of course. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: Rex Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:50 PM Steve Rooke wrote: Wasn't life so much easier with valves (tubes)... Nostalgia? Valves (tubes) warmer in close proximity, yes. Global warming should make that, on average, less helpful. glowing bulbs Other than that memory, and certain trade-offs at big Rf power, I'll say I no longer encourage the glowing bulbs for most things. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
In message 6755cb2a-9566-4f35-818e-38471be65...@cq.nu, Bob Camp writes: And now they are trying to do away with edison bulbs. I hope the LED equivalents are better, because the CF bulbs seem to last less in most home apps. Speaking of LED lamps: I want to point out that at least over here IKEA has a wonderful little LED lamp for the worktable. It's a single 3W white led, at the end of a 55cm long (that's 20 for the imperialists amongst us) swan-neck. I use one for my small CNC-mill: http://ing.dk/uploads/society/content/232.png It's called JAN SJÖ here, not sure if they use that name in other geographies. Highly recommended. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
The most important thing to remember about CFLs is *don't* use them anywhere that they will be turned on and off a lot (e.g. bathrooms). Use them where they'll be turned on and left on. Short on / off cycles can reduce their lifetime to 15% of normal. Here's a report on the subject: http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/nlpip/publicationDetails.asp?id=114type=1 Ed d.sei...@comcast.net wrote: And now they are trying to do away with edison bulbs. I hope the LED equivalents are better, because the CF bulbs seem to last less in most home apps. (I have standard bulbs that have outlasted multiple CF bulbs in similar applications) In particular, I have a 75W desk lamp bulb which has been in use since '97 and gets more hours than the ceiling CFs in the same room, which have been replaced at least 3 times... They are not enclosed or abused. I was really PO'd at the short life of my first set of CF lamps. They seem to be doing better now, but still there is no great enhanced life span. Dave - Original Message - From: Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 2:28:31 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material Warning: Way OT When the vacuum tube was born, there were half as many people on this planet, and global climate change wasn't a problem. Very few people will talk about populution. It's as if there was a blind spot in the brain. Maybe there's no intelligent life in the Universe because all life evolves with similar selection pressures. Once technology removes natural predators (or stops world wars with the atomic bomb), population heads for the sky until the big die-off. If other people don't have a problem with having four kids, I have no problem with using vacuum tubes and Edison bulbs. All in my humble opinion, of course. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: Rex Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:50 PM Steve Rooke wrote: Wasn't life so much easier with valves (tubes)... Nostalgia? Valves (tubes) warmer in close proximity, yes. Global warming should make that, on average, less helpful. glowing bulbs Other than that memory, and certain trade-offs at big Rf power, I'll say I no longer encourage the glowing bulbs for most things. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
It works well, and they have a wall-mount version as well. Note that this reacts to 470MHz GMRS radios: the lamp get's brighter when transmitting in it's vicinity, and completely shuts-off when you transmit close to it. It is very bright indeed. bye, Said In a message dated 1/29/2010 06:27:16 Pacific Standard Time, p...@phk.freebsd.dk writes: I use one for my small CNC-mill: http://ing.dk/uploads/society/content/232.png It's called JAN SJÖ here, not sure if they use that name in other geographies. Highly recommended. -- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
I've heard you can salvage some good rectifiers and maybe a transistor or two from dead CF bulbs. Regards. Max. K 4 O D S. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: d.sei...@comcast.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 1:32 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material And now they are trying to do away with edison bulbs. I hope the LED equivalents are better, because the CF bulbs seem to last less in most home apps. (I have standard bulbs that have outlasted multiple CF bulbs in similar applications) In particular, I have a 75W desk lamp bulb which has been in use since '97 and gets more hours than the ceiling CFs in the same room, which have been replaced at least 3 times... They are not enclosed or abused. I was really PO'd at the short life of my first set of CF lamps. They seem to be doing better now, but still there is no great enhanced life span. Dave - Original Message - From: Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 2:28:31 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material Warning: Way OT When the vacuum tube was born, there were half as many people on this planet, and global climate change wasn't a problem. Very few people will talk about populution. It's as if there was a blind spot in the brain. Maybe there's no intelligent life in the Universe because all life evolves with similar selection pressures. Once technology removes natural predators (or stops world wars with the atomic bomb), population heads for the sky until the big die-off. If other people don't have a problem with having four kids, I have no problem with using vacuum tubes and Edison bulbs. All in my humble opinion, of course. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: Rex Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:50 PM Steve Rooke wrote: Wasn't life so much easier with valves (tubes)... Nostalgia? Valves (tubes) warmer in close proximity, yes. Global warming should make that, on average, less helpful. glowing bulbs Other than that memory, and certain trade-offs at big Rf power, I'll say I no longer encourage the glowing bulbs for most things. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2654 - Release Date: 01/28/10 19:36:00 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message 6755cb2a-9566-4f35-818e-38471be65...@cq.nu, Bob Camp writes: And now they are trying to do away with edison bulbs. I hope the LED equivalents are better, because the CF bulbs seem to last less in most home apps. Speaking of LED lamps: I want to point out that at least over here IKEA has a wonderful little LED lamp for the worktable. It's a single 3W white led, at the end of a 55cm long (that's 20 for the imperialists amongst us) swan-neck. LED lamps... the one thing I keep being annoyed about is the aspect of having three peaks of relative narrow spectrums rather than the normal continuous spectrum mainly being that of the temperature signature. Anyone out there looking at the frequency spectrum of these low-energy lamps? Colour response from few-spike lamps is not really the same than from continuous spectrums. I use one for my small CNC-mill: http://ing.dk/uploads/society/content/232.png It's called JAN SJÖ here, not sure if they use that name in other geographies. IKEA has a habit of giving all their products Swedish names for their products... worldwide. It's part of their trademark so to speak. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Attached is a spectrum of a white LED Flashlight. My diode spectrometer does not go further than the limits shown. Best, -John === LED lamps... the one thing I keep being annoyed about is the aspect of having three peaks of relative narrow spectrums rather than the normal continuous spectrum mainly being that of the temperature signature. Anyone out there looking at the frequency spectrum of these low-energy lamps? Colour response from few-spike lamps is not really the same than from continuous spectrums. LED Flashlight.pdf Description: Adobe PDF document ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Hi John: Would you mention the make and model number of the SA and LED? Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com J. Forster wrote: Attached is a spectrum of a white LED Flashlight. My diode spectrometer does not go further than the limits shown. Best, -John === LED lamps... the one thing I keep being annoyed about is the aspect of having three peaks of relative narrow spectrums rather than the normal continuous spectrum mainly being that of the temperature signature. Anyone out there looking at the frequency spectrum of these low-energy lamps? Colour response from few-spike lamps is not really the same than from continuous spectrums. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
J. Forster wrote: Attached is a spectrum of a white LED Flashlight. My diode spectrometer does not go further than the limits shown. Looks pretty continuous to me. Great. I know there is non-continuous LEDs out there, but I hope they will fade to grey while continuous takes the market. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
To my aging eyes, the flashlight looks distinctly blue-white. I don't know how these particular LEDs are built, but the unit is less than a year old. -John === J. Forster wrote: Attached is a spectrum of a white LED Flashlight. My diode spectrometer does not go further than the limits shown. Looks pretty continuous to me. Great. I know there is non-continuous LEDs out there, but I hope they will fade to grey while continuous takes the market. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 05:15:51PM -0800, J. Forster wrote: To my aging eyes, the flashlight looks distinctly blue-white. I don't know how these particular LEDs are built, but the unit is less than a year old. My understanding is that a lot of high brightness white LEDs are internally a UV emitting LED junction illuminating a phosphor. The light you see comes mostly from the phosphor. Lighting type phosphors have been around forever in fluorescent bulbs... and are fairly continuous spectra mostly... I don't think there is any way of getting broadband white light out of a LED junction, though of course hybrids of multiple different color LEDs can be used (and are in the display business). -- Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
The LED lamps that I have seen use UV LED's with a fluorescent material in the LED to make it appear white. I don't know what the spectrum looks like, but to my eye it appears to be pretty white. -Chuck Harris Magnus Danielson wrote: Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message 6755cb2a-9566-4f35-818e-38471be65...@cq.nu, Bob Camp writes: And now they are trying to do away with edison bulbs. I hope the LED equivalents are better, because the CF bulbs seem to last less in most home apps. Speaking of LED lamps: I want to point out that at least over here IKEA has a wonderful little LED lamp for the worktable. It's a single 3W white led, at the end of a 55cm long (that's 20 for the imperialists amongst us) swan-neck. LED lamps... the one thing I keep being annoyed about is the aspect of having three peaks of relative narrow spectrums rather than the normal continuous spectrum mainly being that of the temperature signature. Anyone out there looking at the frequency spectrum of these low-energy lamps? Colour response from few-spike lamps is not really the same than from continuous spectrums. I use one for my small CNC-mill: http://ing.dk/uploads/society/content/232.png It's called JAN SJÖ here, not sure if they use that name in other geographies. IKEA has a habit of giving all their products Swedish names for their products... worldwide. It's part of their trademark so to speak. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
AARGH! No wonder those things hurt my eyes! One of my biggest concerns with the circline fluorescent lamp in my Luxo magnifier is it burns my hands with UV when I work under it. -Chuck Harris J. Forster wrote: The attached spectrum is from a Circline Fluourescent that screws into a table lamp. -John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
also matches the sun within reason... Don - Original Message - From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org To: j...@quik.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material J. Forster wrote: Attached is a spectrum of a white LED Flashlight. My diode spectrometer does not go further than the limits shown. Looks pretty continuous to me. Great. I know there is non-continuous LEDs out there, but I hope they will fade to grey while continuous takes the market. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
I took apart the last dead one just for that purpose. I initially eyed the 105deg Al cap, but it was dead, along with one of the xstrs (hole in package). The film caps, diodes and fuse are still good too. As is the tube- don't know what I'll do with that. -Dave - Original Message - From: Max Robinson m...@maxsmusicplace.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 12:39:25 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material I've heard you can salvage some good rectifiers and maybe a transistor or two from dead CF bulbs. Regards. Max. K 4 O D S. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: d.sei...@comcast.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 1:32 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material And now they are trying to do away with edison bulbs. I hope the LED equivalents are better, because the CF bulbs seem to last less in most home apps. (I have standard bulbs that have outlasted multiple CF bulbs in similar applications) In particular, I have a 75W desk lamp bulb which has been in use since '97 and gets more hours than the ceiling CFs in the same room, which have been replaced at least 3 times... They are not enclosed or abused. I was really PO'd at the short life of my first set of CF lamps. They seem to be doing better now, but still there is no great enhanced life span. Dave - Original Message - From: Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 2:28:31 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material Warning: Way OT When the vacuum tube was born, there were half as many people on this planet, and global climate change wasn't a problem. Very few people will talk about populution. It's as if there was a blind spot in the brain. Maybe there's no intelligent life in the Universe because all life evolves with similar selection pressures. Once technology removes natural predators (or stops world wars with the atomic bomb), population heads for the sky until the big die-off. If other people don't have a problem with having four kids, I have no problem with using vacuum tubes and Edison bulbs. All in my humble opinion, of course. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: Rex Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:50 PM Steve Rooke wrote: Wasn't life so much easier with valves (tubes)... Nostalgia? Valves (tubes) warmer in close proximity, yes. Global warming should make that, on average, less helpful. glowing bulbs Other than that memory, and certain trade-offs at big Rf power, I'll say I no longer encourage the glowing bulbs for most things. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2654 - Release Date: 01/28/10 19:36:00 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
2010/1/28 Neville Michie namic...@gmail.com: And no-one ever invented complimentary N channel and P channel valves (tubes). True but they did come up with a lot of designs involving multiple grids etc which allowed a single valve to perform more complex functions. Remember the old magic-eye indicators, triodes and pentodes in the same envelope, mixers, etc. And they had a service life of 5000 hours and they stoppd working properly. And they were easy to fault-find, and replacement was a breeze. I'm too far off topic now, sorry to hi-jack the thread. Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
2010/1/29 Bob Camp li...@cq.nu: If we ever go back to tubes we're going to have a bunch of tech's knocked out on the floor. Nobody has a clue about high voltage any more. You had to have a good respect for it on a tube circuit or you got in big trouble. Remember the valves that used to have the grid at the top of the envelope via a separate connection. That made it real easy to inject a signal for tracing through the circuit, you just put your finger on it and listened for mains hum at the speaker, for instance. hat was alright till you found the valve that had an anode at the top... That's going back a looong way. Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material - OT
Please don't let you cat talk to mine! Dave - Original Message - From: Thomas A. Frank ka2...@cox.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 7:56:10 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material - OT The largest discharge we got was from an acrylic rod and the cat. Speaking of cats...one of mine has learned that he can rub across the blanket on the bed and build up quite a charge. In the middle of the night, if one of the other cats is in 'his spot', it is not uncommon to find him rubbing vigorously, then going over to that cat and lightly tapping him on the butt, dumping his charge with a brilliant spark...and a very startled leap from the sleeping one. Why hiss and pounce and wrestle when you have electricity at your whim? Tom Frank, KA2CDK P.S. - while thus far he hasn't tried that on us, we have added a humidifier to the room, just in case. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
And now they are trying to do away with edison bulbs. I hope the LED equivalents are better, because the CF bulbs seem to last less in most home apps. (I have standard bulbs that have outlasted multiple CF bulbs in similar applications) In particular, I have a 75W desk lamp bulb which has been in use since '97 and gets more hours than the ceiling CFs in the same room, which have been replaced at least 3 times... They are not enclosed or abused. I was really PO'd at the short life of my first set of CF lamps. They seem to be doing better now, but still there is no great enhanced life span. Dave - Original Message - From: Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 2:28:31 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material Warning: Way OT When the vacuum tube was born, there were half as many people on this planet, and global climate change wasn't a problem. Very few people will talk about populution. It's as if there was a blind spot in the brain. Maybe there's no intelligent life in the Universe because all life evolves with similar selection pressures. Once technology removes natural predators (or stops world wars with the atomic bomb), population heads for the sky until the big die-off. If other people don't have a problem with having four kids, I have no problem with using vacuum tubes and Edison bulbs. All in my humble opinion, of course. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: Rex Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:50 PM Steve Rooke wrote: Wasn't life so much easier with valves (tubes)... Nostalgia? Valves (tubes) warmer in close proximity, yes. Global warming should make that, on average, less helpful. glowing bulbs Other than that memory, and certain trade-offs at big Rf power, I'll say I no longer encourage the glowing bulbs for most things. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
d.sei...@comcast.net said: The largest discharge we got was from an acrylic rod and the cat. Clean dry wool works nicely. (I give all my old wool hiking socks to a friend who teaches physics to high school physics teachers.) I think the other key ingredient is Styrofoam. You can get good chunks as paper plates or fast-food containers. http://www.exo.net/~pauld/summer_institute/summer_day14electrostatic/Electroph orus.html http://www.exploratorium.edu/science_explorer/sparker.html b...@iaxs.net said: My first job was in a blasting cap plant in 1960. There were military devices so sensitive they could be set off by turning on a nearby fluorescent desk lamp. Fond memories... In 1960, I was in high school. A couple of classrooms had new chairs with a plastic seat and a steel frame. They were great for generating static. I had shoes that were good insulators. I could charge up on one of the chairs and walk down the hall to the lockers and still give somebody a serious zap. The chairs had 4 big round-headed bolts that went through the seat to hold it to the frame. As the typical male was sitting down, a certain sensitive part of their anatomy was closest to the bolt. We learned quickly. I got very good at hitting a leg of the chair with my foot/ankle as I was sitting down. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Wasn't life so much easier with valves (tubes)... :-) Steve 2010/1/27 Bob Camp li...@cq.nu: Hi If you are manually loading up a wire bonder with conventional CMOS chips, ESD damage is a very real thing. You can haul the chip over to a SEM and actually take pictures of he craters you blast in it. Very cool pictures. No cat's, carpets, or Windhurst machines needed. Just normal operators with missing wrist straps will do the trick quite nicely. Bob On Jan 26, 2010, at 2:21 AM, d.sei...@comcast.net wrote: Back about 1981, we had piles of 6502s, etc and decide to some antistatic testing. We put a 40pin ZIF socket into a VIC-20, and then set about trying to fry the uP using carpet, a cat, car seats, etc. The DUT was then put back into the VIC and series of tests run to verify operation. I don't think we ever had a failure. Of course, there may have been some hiding that we missed, but all the static damage I've seen has been pretty severe. That said, I always use a wrist strap and mat if I'm working on something I don't want to break further. -Dave - Original Message - From: Charles P. Steinmetz charles_steinm...@lavabit.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 11:27:11 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material Bruce wrote: Although over the years the non-conductive top has been an asset in avoiding short circuits, etc., I am concerned about static discharges when handling modern semiconductors. Would it make sense to spray the Masonite with a weak copper sulphate or similar solution so as to make the masonite slightly conductive, but not so conductive that 155 VAC connections could not safely rest upon it? Is there a better-suited material that could be used to replace the Masonite? I notice that many folks who have contributed on this thread use anti-static benchtops, but I have never found it necessary (and I try to keep the RH in my house under 45% -- it is generally 20% or less in the winter). I've been fooling with static-sensitive parts for 35 years and haven't lost one to static yet. With that perspective, my preferred benchtop is white Formica with a very, very slightly pebbled surface. Very durable, including to molten solder, and small parts show up well. I use rubberized gunsmith mats for preventing scratches to delicate workpieces (these happen to be anti-static, but that is not why I have them). Other bench thoughts: Bench depth is very important. I sometimes work on equipment that is more than 24 deep, so I want at least 30 of clear space in front of any obstructions (power strips, Variac, test equipment, whatever). In the past, I used a flying bridge over the rear 18 of a 48-deep bench to elevate the test equipment, which worked very well. Now I use 24 deep adjustable wire-rack shelving units behind a 30 benchtop (As others have pointed out, you can do the same with equipment racks -- I'm not a fan of rack-mounting test equipment unless the racks are anchored and everything is on slides, which I was not prepared to do). I don't have enough shop real estate to have a permanent access aisle behind the test equipment, so the bench and racks have large (5) locking polyurethane wheels and can be pulled out relatively easily for reconfiguration. This provides plenty of stability for electronic projects, but you wouldn't want to mount a big vise on the bench and try to bend 1 rebar. For that, I have a separate metalworking shop. Bench height is also important. I prefer a tall bench, suited to working standing or sitting on an ergonomic stool, so my bench top is 44 above the floor -- a bit below my standing elbow height. Finally, one can never have too many power outlets, or too much light, in a workshop. Lighting should be arranged so that it doesn't cause specular reflections from the workpiece or the faces of test equipment. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material - OT
The largest discharge we got was from an acrylic rod and the cat. Speaking of cats...one of mine has learned that he can rub across the blanket on the bed and build up quite a charge. In the middle of the night, if one of the other cats is in 'his spot', it is not uncommon to find him rubbing vigorously, then going over to that cat and lightly tapping him on the butt, dumping his charge with a brilliant spark...and a very startled leap from the sleeping one. Why hiss and pounce and wrestle when you have electricity at your whim? Tom Frank, KA2CDK P.S. - while thus far he hasn't tried that on us, we have added a humidifier to the room, just in case. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Steve wrote. Wasn't life so much easier with valves (tubes)... Amen brother. Regards. Max. K 4 O D S. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Steve Rooke sar10...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material Wasn't life so much easier with valves (tubes)... :-) Steve 2010/1/27 Bob Camp li...@cq.nu: Hi If you are manually loading up a wire bonder with conventional CMOS chips, ESD damage is a very real thing. You can haul the chip over to a SEM and actually take pictures of he craters you blast in it. Very cool pictures. No cat's, carpets, or Windhurst machines needed. Just normal operators with missing wrist straps will do the trick quite nicely. Bob On Jan 26, 2010, at 2:21 AM, d.sei...@comcast.net wrote: Back about 1981, we had piles of 6502s, etc and decide to some antistatic testing. We put a 40pin ZIF socket into a VIC-20, and then set about trying to fry the uP using carpet, a cat, car seats, etc. The DUT was then put back into the VIC and series of tests run to verify operation. I don't think we ever had a failure. Of course, there may have been some hiding that we missed, but all the static damage I've seen has been pretty severe. That said, I always use a wrist strap and mat if I'm working on something I don't want to break further. -Dave - Original Message - From: Charles P. Steinmetz charles_steinm...@lavabit.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 11:27:11 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material Bruce wrote: Although over the years the non-conductive top has been an asset in avoiding short circuits, etc., I am concerned about static discharges when handling modern semiconductors. Would it make sense to spray the Masonite with a weak copper sulphate or similar solution so as to make the masonite slightly conductive, but not so conductive that 155 VAC connections could not safely rest upon it? Is there a better-suited material that could be used to replace the Masonite? I notice that many folks who have contributed on this thread use anti-static benchtops, but I have never found it necessary (and I try to keep the RH in my house under 45% -- it is generally 20% or less in the winter). I've been fooling with static-sensitive parts for 35 years and haven't lost one to static yet. With that perspective, my preferred benchtop is white Formica with a very, very slightly pebbled surface. Very durable, including to molten solder, and small parts show up well. I use rubberized gunsmith mats for preventing scratches to delicate workpieces (these happen to be anti-static, but that is not why I have them). Other bench thoughts: Bench depth is very important. I sometimes work on equipment that is more than 24 deep, so I want at least 30 of clear space in front of any obstructions (power strips, Variac, test equipment, whatever). In the past, I used a flying bridge over the rear 18 of a 48-deep bench to elevate the test equipment, which worked very well. Now I use 24 deep adjustable wire-rack shelving units behind a 30 benchtop (As others have pointed out, you can do the same with equipment racks -- I'm not a fan of rack-mounting test equipment unless the racks are anchored and everything is on slides, which I was not prepared to do). I don't have enough shop real estate to have a permanent access aisle behind the test equipment, so the bench and racks have large (5) locking polyurethane wheels and can be pulled out relatively easily for reconfiguration. This provides plenty of stability for electronic projects, but you wouldn't want to mount a big vise on the bench and try to bend 1 rebar. For that, I have a separate metalworking shop. Bench height is also important. I prefer a tall bench, suited to working standing or sitting on an ergonomic stool, so my bench top is 44 above the floor -- a bit below my standing elbow height. Finally, one can never have too many power outlets, or too much light, in a workshop. Lighting should be arranged so that it doesn't cause specular reflections from the workpiece or the faces of test equipment. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material - OT
Now that's one smart cat. Regards. Max. K 4 O D S. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Thomas A. Frank ka2...@cox.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 8:56 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material - OT The largest discharge we got was from an acrylic rod and the cat. Speaking of cats...one of mine has learned that he can rub across the blanket on the bed and build up quite a charge. In the middle of the night, if one of the other cats is in 'his spot', it is not uncommon to find him rubbing vigorously, then going over to that cat and lightly tapping him on the butt, dumping his charge with a brilliant spark...and a very startled leap from the sleeping one. Why hiss and pounce and wrestle when you have electricity at your whim? Tom Frank, KA2CDK P.S. - while thus far he hasn't tried that on us, we have added a humidifier to the room, just in case. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2650 - Release Date: 01/27/10 19:36:00 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Hi If you are manually loading up a wire bonder with conventional CMOS chips, ESD damage is a very real thing. You can haul the chip over to a SEM and actually take pictures of he craters you blast in it. Very cool pictures. No cat's, carpets, or Windhurst machines needed. Just normal operators with missing wrist straps will do the trick quite nicely. Bob On Jan 26, 2010, at 2:21 AM, d.sei...@comcast.net wrote: Back about 1981, we had piles of 6502s, etc and decide to some antistatic testing. We put a 40pin ZIF socket into a VIC-20, and then set about trying to fry the uP using carpet, a cat, car seats, etc. The DUT was then put back into the VIC and series of tests run to verify operation. I don't think we ever had a failure. Of course, there may have been some hiding that we missed, but all the static damage I've seen has been pretty severe. That said, I always use a wrist strap and mat if I'm working on something I don't want to break further. -Dave - Original Message - From: Charles P. Steinmetz charles_steinm...@lavabit.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 11:27:11 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material Bruce wrote: Although over the years the non-conductive top has been an asset in avoiding short circuits, etc., I am concerned about static discharges when handling modern semiconductors. Would it make sense to spray the Masonite with a weak copper sulphate or similar solution so as to make the masonite slightly conductive, but not so conductive that 155 VAC connections could not safely rest upon it? Is there a better-suited material that could be used to replace the Masonite? I notice that many folks who have contributed on this thread use anti-static benchtops, but I have never found it necessary (and I try to keep the RH in my house under 45% -- it is generally 20% or less in the winter). I've been fooling with static-sensitive parts for 35 years and haven't lost one to static yet. With that perspective, my preferred benchtop is white Formica with a very, very slightly pebbled surface. Very durable, including to molten solder, and small parts show up well. I use rubberized gunsmith mats for preventing scratches to delicate workpieces (these happen to be anti-static, but that is not why I have them). Other bench thoughts: Bench depth is very important. I sometimes work on equipment that is more than 24 deep, so I want at least 30 of clear space in front of any obstructions (power strips, Variac, test equipment, whatever). In the past, I used a flying bridge over the rear 18 of a 48-deep bench to elevate the test equipment, which worked very well. Now I use 24 deep adjustable wire-rack shelving units behind a 30 benchtop (As others have pointed out, you can do the same with equipment racks -- I'm not a fan of rack-mounting test equipment unless the racks are anchored and everything is on slides, which I was not prepared to do). I don't have enough shop real estate to have a permanent access aisle behind the test equipment, so the bench and racks have large (5) locking polyurethane wheels and can be pulled out relatively easily for reconfiguration. This provides plenty of stability for electronic projects, but you wouldn't want to mount a big vise on the bench and try to bend 1 rebar. For that, I have a separate metalworking shop. Bench height is also important. I prefer a tall bench, suited to working standing or sitting on an ergonomic stool, so my bench top is 44 above the floor -- a bit below my standing elbow height. Finally, one can never have too many power outlets, or too much light, in a workshop. Lighting should be arranged so that it doesn't cause specular reflections from the workpiece or the faces of test equipment. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Dave wrote: Back about 1981, we had piles of 6502s, etc and decide to some antistatic testing. We put a 40pin ZIF socket into a VIC-20, and then set about trying to fry the uP using carpet, a cat, car seats, etc. The DUT was then put back into the VIC and series of tests run to verify operation. I don't think we ever had a failure. Of course, there may have been some hiding that we missed, but all the static damage I've seen has been pretty severe. That said, I always use a wrist strap and mat if I'm working on something I don't want to break further. Installed components are generally much less vulnerable to ESD than bare parts, because there are leakage paths (both intentional and otherwise) on a circuit board that allow the ESD to flow around the component rather than through it. With a naked part, any ESD to one of its leads has to flow through its other leads or the case of the device, thereby maximizing any damage. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
I am concerned about static discharges when handling modern semiconductors. These days it's not just semiconductors at risk given the tiny geometry of passives. At work we had a work station where we assembled a board with all passive components, so no thought was given to ESD control. We traced a series of mysterious failures to ESD affecting the value of some resistors. Now ESD control is just about everywhere! -Joe Fitzgerald KM1P ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Everything old is new again. The 25+ year old HP Bench Brief that I referred to a few messages back warns about that. Ed Joe Fitzgerald wrote: I am concerned about static discharges when handling modern semiconductors. These days it's not just semiconductors at risk given the tiny geometry of passives. At work we had a work station where we assembled a board with all passive components, so no thought was given to ESD control. We traced a series of mysterious failures to ESD affecting the value of some resistors. Now ESD control is just about everywhere! -Joe Fitzgerald KM1P ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Ed Palmer wrote: Everything old is new again. The 25+ year old HP Bench Brief that I referred to a few messages back warns about that. Nothing usefull could be found in old documents, they just didn't have the same technology as we have, and hence not the problems. Well, not that much different. Scale is the main thing. People have been studying all kinds of things, so good clues may still lay around if you dare look for them. Thanks for remembering this stuff. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
I guess I wasn't too clear; it was the bare devices we were trying to destroy; the VIC20 was just used for testing. The largest discharge we got was from an acrylic rod and the cat. - Original Message - From: Charles P. Steinmetz charles_steinm...@lavabit.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 7:04:11 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material Dave wrote: Back about 1981, we had piles of 6502s, etc and decide to some antistatic testing. We put a 40pin ZIF socket into a VIC-20, and then set about trying to fry the uP using carpet, a cat, car seats, etc. The DUT was then put back into the VIC and series of tests run to verify operation. I don't think we ever had a failure. Of course, there may have been some hiding that we missed, but all the static damage I've seen has been pretty severe. That said, I always use a wrist strap and mat if I'm working on something I don't want to break further. Installed components are generally much less vulnerable to ESD than bare parts, because there are leakage paths (both intentional and otherwise) on a circuit board that allow the ESD to flow around the component rather than through it. With a naked part, any ESD to one of its leads has to flow through its other leads or the case of the device, thereby maximizing any damage. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
In message 1548123648.14120691264567016061.javamail.r...@sz0108a.emeryville.ca .mail.comcast.net, d.sei...@comcast.net writes: I guess I wasn't too clear; it was the bare devices we were trying to destroy; the VIC20 was just used for testing. The 6502 was a very robust device manufactured in NMOS technology. The original target market was motorolas very lucrative military/space 6800 market, so the chip had to match or exceed the 6800 on all points, including accidental damage. The first version, the 6501 was in fact pin- but not instruction-compatible with 6800, but Motorola had a legal fit and MOS gave up on that idea. The fact that 6502 mainly ended up in Commodore computers was mainly a matter of its lower price. Later the crash in microprocessor prices saddled Jack Tramiel with a huge overpriced inventory which made him outright buy MOS to avoid a repeat performance of that problem. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Atari used them by the truckload too, and again, probably due to price. I'm sure somebody is probably still producing them, or can. It was a very durable item; once, on a lark, we took one that had been run over by a truck and sat out in the weather for who knows how long, bent the pins enough to solder it to a 40pin header and tried it out in a CBM 8032it worked... I kind of wish I had been working back then when stuff was so robust Now we have poly Ta caps that have a real shelf life that's not MSL related. Dave - Original Message - From: Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 12:03:54 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material In message 1548123648.14120691264567016061.javamail.r...@sz0108a.emeryville.ca .mail.comcast.net, d.sei...@comcast.net writes: I guess I wasn't too clear; it was the bare devices we were trying to destroy; the VIC20 was just used for testing. The 6502 was a very robust device manufactured in NMOS technology. The original target market was motorolas very lucrative military/space 6800 market, so the chip had to match or exceed the 6800 on all points, including accidental damage. The first version, the 6501 was in fact pin- but not instruction-compatible with 6800, but Motorola had a legal fit and MOS gave up on that idea. The fact that 6502 mainly ended up in Commodore computers was mainly a matter of its lower price. Later the crash in microprocessor prices saddled Jack Tramiel with a huge overpriced inventory which made him outright buy MOS to avoid a repeat performance of that problem. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
My electronic bench is an old commercial one made with steel stampings and a steel top covered with Masonite. The Masonite is still in fair condition. Although over the years the non-conductive top has been an asset in avoiding short circuits, etc., I am concerned about static discharges when handling modern semiconductors. Would it make sense to spray the Masonite with a weak copper sulphate or similar solution so as to make the masonite slightly conductive, but not so conductive that 155 VAC connections could not safely rest upon it? Is there a better-suited material that could be used to replace the Masonite? Ironically, in the 1960's, Transite (asbestos) was sometimes used as a covering for electronic benches as as it was resistant to molten solder. The downside was that in sliding heavy equipment around, friable material could be released. Bruce Hunter ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
I use Stat-Les anti-static floor finish on my benches. You can find it at Legge Systems, http://www.leggesystems.com/c-177-static-control-floor-care-products.aspx The price is pretty good for the 1 quart size bottles ($20 or so) and that does a lot of benches. -Bob, N3XKB On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 8:42 AM, brucekar...@aol.com wrote: My electronic bench is an old commercial one made with steel stampings and a steel top covered with Masonite. The Masonite is still in fair condition. Although over the years the non-conductive top has been an asset in avoiding short circuits, etc., I am concerned about static discharges when handling modern semiconductors. Would it make sense to spray the Masonite with a weak copper sulphate or similar solution so as to make the masonite slightly conductive, but not so conductive that 155 VAC connections could not safely rest upon it? Is there a better-suited material that could be used to replace the Masonite? Ironically, in the 1960's, Transite (asbestos) was sometimes used as a covering for electronic benches as as it was resistant to molten solder. The downside was that in sliding heavy equipment around, friable material could be released. Bruce Hunter ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Bruce wrote: Although over the years the non-conductive top has been an asset in avoiding short circuits, etc., I am concerned about static discharges when handling modern semiconductors. Would it make sense to spray the Masonite with a weak copper sulphate or similar solution so as to make the masonite slightly conductive, but not so conductive that 155 VAC connections could not safely rest upon it? Is there a better-suited material that could be used to replace the Masonite? I notice that many folks who have contributed on this thread use anti-static benchtops, but I have never found it necessary (and I try to keep the RH in my house under 45% -- it is generally 20% or less in the winter). I've been fooling with static-sensitive parts for 35 years and haven't lost one to static yet. With that perspective, my preferred benchtop is white Formica with a very, very slightly pebbled surface. Very durable, including to molten solder, and small parts show up well. I use rubberized gunsmith mats for preventing scratches to delicate workpieces (these happen to be anti-static, but that is not why I have them). Other bench thoughts: Bench depth is very important. I sometimes work on equipment that is more than 24 deep, so I want at least 30 of clear space in front of any obstructions (power strips, Variac, test equipment, whatever). In the past, I used a flying bridge over the rear 18 of a 48-deep bench to elevate the test equipment, which worked very well. Now I use 24 deep adjustable wire-rack shelving units behind a 30 benchtop (As others have pointed out, you can do the same with equipment racks -- I'm not a fan of rack-mounting test equipment unless the racks are anchored and everything is on slides, which I was not prepared to do). I don't have enough shop real estate to have a permanent access aisle behind the test equipment, so the bench and racks have large (5) locking polyurethane wheels and can be pulled out relatively easily for reconfiguration. This provides plenty of stability for electronic projects, but you wouldn't want to mount a big vise on the bench and try to bend 1 rebar. For that, I have a separate metalworking shop. Bench height is also important. I prefer a tall bench, suited to working standing or sitting on an ergonomic stool, so my bench top is 44 above the floor -- a bit below my standing elbow height. Finally, one can never have too many power outlets, or too much light, in a workshop. Lighting should be arranged so that it doesn't cause specular reflections from the workpiece or the faces of test equipment. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
In message 20100125182712.7014911b...@karen.lavabit.com, Charles P. Steinmet z writes: Bruce wrote: I notice that many folks who have contributed on this thread use anti-static benchtops, but I have never found it necessary [...] My worktable has a surface of hardwood-floor-boards and a painted steel profile on the front that I make point out of touching before sticking my fingers into any sensitive circuits. Works for me. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Hi Charles, I'm in a similar boat where I've worked with static sensitive parts without any problems without having so much as put on a wrist strap. It's just never been an issue, even with our RH sitting around 12% here in New Mexico. I've been shoulder deep in Cray and SGI supercomputers without worrying about it. Then the day came where I needed to do surgery on my network analyzer. I figured the $20 for the coating was cheap insurance. I don't have $37k sitting around to replace it should I fry it. That was the first time I ever put on a wrist strap too! -Bob On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Charles P. Steinmetz charles_steinm...@lavabit.com wrote: Bruce wrote: Although over the years the non-conductive top has been an asset in avoiding short circuits, etc., I am concerned about static discharges when handling modern semiconductors. Would it make sense to spray the Masonite with a weak copper sulphate or similar solution so as to make the masonite slightly conductive, but not so conductive that 155 VAC connections could not safely rest upon it? Is there a better-suited material that could be used to replace the Masonite? I notice that many folks who have contributed on this thread use anti-static benchtops, but I have never found it necessary (and I try to keep the RH in my house under 45% -- it is generally 20% or less in the winter). I've been fooling with static-sensitive parts for 35 years and haven't lost one to static yet. With that perspective, my preferred benchtop is white Formica with a very, very slightly pebbled surface. Very durable, including to molten solder, and small parts show up well. I use rubberized gunsmith mats for preventing scratches to delicate workpieces (these happen to be anti-static, but that is not why I have them). Other bench thoughts: Bench depth is very important. I sometimes work on equipment that is more than 24 deep, so I want at least 30 of clear space in front of any obstructions (power strips, Variac, test equipment, whatever). In the past, I used a flying bridge over the rear 18 of a 48-deep bench to elevate the test equipment, which worked very well. Now I use 24 deep adjustable wire-rack shelving units behind a 30 benchtop (As others have pointed out, you can do the same with equipment racks -- I'm not a fan of rack-mounting test equipment unless the racks are anchored and everything is on slides, which I was not prepared to do). I don't have enough shop real estate to have a permanent access aisle behind the test equipment, so the bench and racks have large (5) locking polyurethane wheels and can be pulled out relatively easily for reconfiguration. This provides plenty of stability for electronic projects, but you wouldn't want to mount a big vise on the bench and try to bend 1 rebar. For that, I have a separate metalworking shop. Bench height is also important. I prefer a tall bench, suited to working standing or sitting on an ergonomic stool, so my bench top is 44 above the floor -- a bit below my standing elbow height. Finally, one can never have too many power outlets, or too much light, in a workshop. Lighting should be arranged so that it doesn't cause specular reflections from the workpiece or the faces of test equipment. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
-Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Charles P. Steinmetz Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 10:27 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material Bruce wrote: Although over the years the non-conductive top has been an asset in avoiding short circuits, etc., I am concerned about static discharges when handling modern semiconductors. Would it make sense to spray the Masonite with a weak copper sulphate or similar solution so as to make the masonite slightly conductive, but not so conductive that 155 VAC connections could not safely rest upon it? Is there a better-suited material that could be used to replace the Masonite? One generally looks for static-dissipative surfaces, rather than conductive surfaces. 1 Megohm/square, for instance. The idea is to keep everything isopotential as charge drops onto things, not to rigorously establish a common voltage. I notice that many folks who have contributed on this thread use anti-static benchtops, but I have never found it necessary (and I try to keep the RH in my house under 45% -- it is generally 20% or less in the winter). I've been fooling with static-sensitive parts for 35 years and haven't lost one to static yet You haven't lost one *that you know of*. It also depends on the kinds of parts you're working with. There are some that are quite sensitive AND which don't fail outright, but just degrade performance a bit when they take a hit. It also depends on the energy behind the hit, of course. An example might be the MiniCircuits ERA-4 or ERA-5 (just because I happen to have the data sheet handy). Take a look at the later pages in the report, and you can see where the gain changes slightly as a result of 100V ESD hits (see page 6, where you can see gain dropping about 1.5 dB over 8 pulses, with about 0.1dB per hit.) As they say at the end of the report: The new amplifier ERA-4XSM shows gradual degradation in the gain and the device voltage. That fact is not so bad. Even with the multiple stress a customer would rather have gradual changes then catastrophic failure. The amplifier withstands a single 100V ESD pulse, or 3 pulses at 50V. http://www.minicircuits.com/pages/pdfs/an60028.pdf When we (JPL) do site visits to vendors, lackadaisical approaches to ESD handling are one of the common problems. For us, who are building just one or two of something that's going to be going somewhere where repair isn't an option, latent damage and gradual degradation are a big deal. It's really a habit thing that everyone has to get used to. That's why even nuts and bolts come in ESD packaging (even though they're obviously ESD immune): it gets people in the mindset of come in the area, put on the wrist strap. Back in the 70s, when ESD processes started to be used, they would have multiple categories of parts, some which needed ESD precautions (CMOS parts, DRAMs,etc.) and some which didn't (resistors, capacitors). It was found that workers would be working with something in one category, and the habits would carry over to the others, so the industry, in general, went to the everything is ESD sensitive approach. The *worst* offenders for ESD are the engineers (like those of us reading the list!), because they actually know what parts are sensitive and which aren't, and tend to take shortcuts with the non-sensitive parts. Which works, sort of, until they guess wrong, and cook something. Hey, why is the NF on this LNA 0.2 dB higher than it was yesterday? jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
I've still got a paper copy of an HP Bench Brief from 1983 that was one of my first introductions to the dangers of ESD. I've used a wrist strap and antistatic mat since then. ESD protection in the ICs has improved since then, but I think that the article is still mostly applicable today. http://www.hparchive.com/Bench_Briefs/HP-Bench-Briefs-1983-03-05.pdf Ed Lux, Jim (337C) wrote: -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Charles P. Steinmetz Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 10:27 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material Bruce wrote: Although over the years the non-conductive top has been an asset in avoiding short circuits, etc., I am concerned about static discharges when handling modern semiconductors. Would it make sense to spray the Masonite with a weak copper sulphate or similar solution so as to make the masonite slightly conductive, but not so conductive that 155 VAC connections could not safely rest upon it? Is there a better-suited material that could be used to replace the Masonite? One generally looks for static-dissipative surfaces, rather than conductive surfaces. 1 Megohm/square, for instance. The idea is to keep everything isopotential as charge drops onto things, not to rigorously establish a common voltage. I notice that many folks who have contributed on this thread use anti-static benchtops, but I have never found it necessary (and I try to keep the RH in my house under 45% -- it is generally 20% or less in the winter). I've been fooling with static-sensitive parts for 35 years and haven't lost one to static yet You haven't lost one *that you know of*. It also depends on the kinds of parts you're working with. There are some that are quite sensitive AND which don't fail outright, but just degrade performance a bit when they take a hit. It also depends on the energy behind the hit, of course. An example might be the MiniCircuits ERA-4 or ERA-5 (just because I happen to have the data sheet handy). Take a look at the later pages in the report, and you can see where the gain changes slightly as a result of 100V ESD hits (see page 6, where you can see gain dropping about 1.5 dB over 8 pulses, with about 0.1dB per hit.) As they say at the end of the report: The new amplifier ERA-4XSM shows gradual degradation in the gain and the device voltage. That fact is not so bad. Even with the multiple stress a customer would rather have gradual changes then catastrophic failure. The amplifier withstands a single 100V ESD pulse, or 3 pulses at 50V. http://www.minicircuits.com/pages/pdfs/an60028.pdf When we (JPL) do site visits to vendors, lackadaisical approaches to ESD handling are one of the common problems. For us, who are building just one or two of something that's going to be going somewhere where repair isn't an option, latent damage and gradual degradation are a big deal. It's really a habit thing that everyone has to get used to. That's why even nuts and bolts come in ESD packaging (even though they're obviously ESD immune): it gets people in the mindset of come in the area, put on the wrist strap. Back in the 70s, when ESD processes started to be used, they would have multiple categories of parts, some which needed ESD precautions (CMOS parts, DRAMs,etc.) and some which didn't (resistors, capacitors). It was found that workers would be working with something in one category, and the habits would carry over to the others, so the industry, in general, went to the everything is ESD sensitive approach. The *worst* offenders for ESD are the engineers (like those of us reading the list!), because they actually know what parts are sensitive and which aren't, and tend to take shortcuts with the non-sensitive parts. Which works, sort of, until they guess wrong, and cook something. Hey, why is the NF on this LNA 0.2 dB higher than it was yesterday? jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
-Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bill Hawkins I learned that the human body has a capacitance of 400 pico F. Getting up from a chair could raise a couple of kilovolts. We walked on conductive rubber floors wearing conductive rubber shoes. Bench tops were conductive rubber. Nobody had thought of the wrist strap yet. If you're in and out of ESD areas, then shoes with conductive soles are easier to use than always wrist strapping. Ditto if you're working on something big where the cord for the wrist strap gets in the way. In some of our clean rooms, we have booties to go over your street shoes that have conductive coatings on them, and a conductive ribbon that you tuck into your sock to make contact. (And you go stand on a test pad to make sure, of course). I like the conductive shoes approach, it's pretty screw up proof, because you don't have to remember to plug your wrist strap in when you come to the bench, but the floor needs to be conductive, too. In those days, rubber was made conductive with carbon black. It was almost as effective as a pencil at marking things. If the anti-static material is not black, maybe it won't be a marking hazard. These days, the black bins are dissipative and not marking. The black foam is history (we all have ICs with corroded leads in the garage where the black foam turns to goo). Here at JPl, we don't use the pink bags/peanuts/stuff at all, because apparently, the coating can flake or rub off. We use plastic that has a very thin metalized layer, and I think that's pretty much industry standard now. A megohm and 400 pF has a time constant of 400 microseconds, but you do get the kilovolt spike. The wrist strap looks really good as long as your motion is the only source of static electricity. It keeps your body from ever reaching kilovolt potentials. And the megohm is important to keep you from inadvertently dying when you happen to accidentally contact the AC line. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Natural materials like wood, cotton, wool and even concrete have an equilibrium water content that changes with ambient relative humidity. This makes these materials conductive but not conductive enough to carry dangerous currents. They are still good insulators for mains voltage. The textiles can change moisture content and conductivity quite quickly as they have fibre diameters of about 20 microns or so, but even at 20% RH static charges dissipate in seconds. Plastics, however, tend to be very non- conductive and charges can be held for hours. Also, some plastics form electrets which stay charged even under water. A great insight to the static electricity problem came from articles I read as a young boy in old (1910) articles such as make yourself an electrophorous in popular science mags. A can lid was filled with melted resin. When solid it was rubbed with wool. A metal disk with insulated handle was placed on the resin and grounded with a finger. The disk was then lifted off the resin and would be found to have a high charge (and voltage) on it. (half inch fat spark to ground) This process of induced charging and potential multiplication is the danger on work benches. The main way to overcome it is to have an isopotential environment which naturally occurs with natural materials where all charges rapidly drain away. Wood is good, it does not produce charge when rubbed and rapidly drains any charge away. And unless soaking wet it will not electrocute you if you are leaning on it when you touch and active power lead. (my theory from experience is that it is the ground that would kill you when if you were electrocuted. If you have good soles on your shoes and the other hand in your pocket an accidental touch to high voltage is survivable) just a few thoughts, Neville Michie time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Good golly Neville,? you were a young boy in 1910?? Jerry From: Neville Michie lt;namic...@gmail.comgt; Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material A great insight to the static electricity problem came from articles I read as a young boy in old (1910)articles such as make yourself an electrophorous in popular science mags. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Bill Hawkins wrote: My first job was in a blasting cap plant in 1960. There were military devices so sensitive they could be set off by turning on a nearby fluorescent desk lamp. I learned that the human body has a capacitance of 400 pico F. Getting up from a chair could raise a couple of kilovolts. We walked on conductive rubber floors wearing conductive rubber shoes. Bench tops were conductive rubber. Nobody had thought of the wrist strap yet. In those days, rubber was made conductive with carbon black. It was almost as effective as a pencil at marking things. If the anti-static material is not black, maybe it won't be a marking hazard. A megohm and 400 pF has a time constant of 400 microseconds, but you do get the kilovolt spike. The wrist strap looks really good as long as your motion is the only source of static electricity. It keeps your body from ever reaching kilovolt potentials. Your finger and hand makes a 700ps to 1 ns risetime device. Slew-rate wise you can be up in several milions of V/us. The arm has sufficient induction that it takes a considerable time before the body discharges, but the hand creats the leader and then the big blow comes from the body discharge. Just as a cloud and a ligthning bolt, but in man-size. However, being ESD aware does not mean going maniac about it. It's more like don't finger on things which is very hot. You need to build good habits to avoid doing something bad. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Lux, Jim (337C) wrote: -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bill Hawkins I learned that the human body has a capacitance of 400 pico F. Getting up from a chair could raise a couple of kilovolts. We walked on conductive rubber floors wearing conductive rubber shoes. Bench tops were conductive rubber. Nobody had thought of the wrist strap yet. If you're in and out of ESD areas, then shoes with conductive soles are easier to use than always wrist strapping. Ditto if you're working on something big where the cord for the wrist strap gets in the way. In some of our clean rooms, we have booties to go over your street shoes that have conductive coatings on them, and a conductive ribbon that you tuck into your sock to make contact. (And you go stand on a test pad to make sure, of course). I like the conductive shoes approach, it's pretty screw up proof, because you don't have to remember to plug your wrist strap in when you come to the bench, but the floor needs to be conductive, too. The first greeting a new collueage gets when comming first day to work is What shoesize are you?. We order ESD shoes for more or less everyone. Our US sales-people is known to ask if it is real Birkenstock shoes. :) In those days, rubber was made conductive with carbon black. It was almost as effective as a pencil at marking things. If the anti-static material is not black, maybe it won't be a marking hazard. These days, the black bins are dissipative and not marking. The black foam is history (we all have ICs with corroded leads in the garage where the black foam turns to goo). Here at JPl, we don't use the pink bags/peanuts/stuff at all, because apparently, the coating can flake or rub off. We use plastic that has a very thin metalized layer, and I think that's pretty much industry standard now. This is why you guys don't have a pink-day at the office! :) You got to have a silly pink-day every once in a while just for the fun of it. I'll see if not the HW department can adapt it, as they have tried non-casual-friday (usual dress code is... um... casual). A megohm and 400 pF has a time constant of 400 microseconds, but you do get the kilovolt spike. The wrist strap looks really good as long as your motion is the only source of static electricity. It keeps your body from ever reaching kilovolt potentials. And the megohm is important to keep you from inadvertently dying when you happen to accidentally contact the AC line. There is a reason for EKG equipment being measured for isolation properties. The medical staff wants to select the time and dosage of larger currents through the heart, and preference is towards patients that badly need it. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
No, my grandfather used to buy mechanics type magazines, and I used to love reading them in the 50s, about the weird things you could make. He also passed on a little of the old world technology to me. He was a brass founder, making things like locks and hinges etc. In the great depression (1920) he was locked out. (went to work to find his place of employment closed and bankrupt). He never cast metal again. He went to night school and became an electrical contractor wiring houses as the grid became available. Shows how the wheel goes round and new technologies replace old ones, and the workers have to adapt. cheers, Neville Michie On 26/01/2010, at 9:35 AM, gsteinb...@aol.com wrote: Good golly Neville,? you were a young boy in 1910?? Jerry From: Neville Michie lt;namic...@gmail.comgt; Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material A great insight to the static electricity problem came from articles I read as a young boy in old (1910)articles such as make yourself an electrophorous in popular science mags. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material
Back about 1981, we had piles of 6502s, etc and decide to some antistatic testing. We put a 40pin ZIF socket into a VIC-20, and then set about trying to fry the uP using carpet, a cat, car seats, etc. The DUT was then put back into the VIC and series of tests run to verify operation. I don't think we ever had a failure. Of course, there may have been some hiding that we missed, but all the static damage I've seen has been pretty severe. That said, I always use a wrist strap and mat if I'm working on something I don't want to break further. -Dave - Original Message - From: Charles P. Steinmetz charles_steinm...@lavabit.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 11:27:11 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conducting Bench Top Material Bruce wrote: Although over the years the non-conductive top has been an asset in avoiding short circuits, etc., I am concerned about static discharges when handling modern semiconductors. Would it make sense to spray the Masonite with a weak copper sulphate or similar solution so as to make the masonite slightly conductive, but not so conductive that 155 VAC connections could not safely rest upon it? Is there a better-suited material that could be used to replace the Masonite? I notice that many folks who have contributed on this thread use anti-static benchtops, but I have never found it necessary (and I try to keep the RH in my house under 45% -- it is generally 20% or less in the winter). I've been fooling with static-sensitive parts for 35 years and haven't lost one to static yet. With that perspective, my preferred benchtop is white Formica with a very, very slightly pebbled surface. Very durable, including to molten solder, and small parts show up well. I use rubberized gunsmith mats for preventing scratches to delicate workpieces (these happen to be anti-static, but that is not why I have them). Other bench thoughts: Bench depth is very important. I sometimes work on equipment that is more than 24 deep, so I want at least 30 of clear space in front of any obstructions (power strips, Variac, test equipment, whatever). In the past, I used a flying bridge over the rear 18 of a 48-deep bench to elevate the test equipment, which worked very well. Now I use 24 deep adjustable wire-rack shelving units behind a 30 benchtop (As others have pointed out, you can do the same with equipment racks -- I'm not a fan of rack-mounting test equipment unless the racks are anchored and everything is on slides, which I was not prepared to do). I don't have enough shop real estate to have a permanent access aisle behind the test equipment, so the bench and racks have large (5) locking polyurethane wheels and can be pulled out relatively easily for reconfiguration. This provides plenty of stability for electronic projects, but you wouldn't want to mount a big vise on the bench and try to bend 1 rebar. For that, I have a separate metalworking shop. Bench height is also important. I prefer a tall bench, suited to working standing or sitting on an ergonomic stool, so my bench top is 44 above the floor -- a bit below my standing elbow height. Finally, one can never have too many power outlets, or too much light, in a workshop. Lighting should be arranged so that it doesn't cause specular reflections from the workpiece or the faces of test equipment. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
