[time-nuts] E1938A
Hello Tom, There are two versions of the E1938A, one has a male DB-25 and one has a female DB-25 (mounted on the opposite side of the board as the male). Pinout and functions are the same between the two versions. If your hardware is expecting one type but all you have is the other an adapter cable can always be made from a couple of connectors and ribbon cable (been there, done that). Regards, Skip Withrow ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments
On 10/01/2012 02:05 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: On 9/30/2012 2:20 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote: With two such offset 10811s you could use DMTD methods or for that matter cross-correlation phase noise measures to more directly measure the units. That way you would have avoided the "golden unit" issue, since the phase noise of those would average out if treated well. Didn't you consider steps like that? I didn't "own" this system. Production engineering was very conservative and didn't want to change anything. As they tend to be. But back at the engineering side at least? Anyway, setting that up today isn't rocket science, and Bert and John among others have been able to build such systems. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments
I have a corby ocxo (datum-c) that I am coupling with a fury oem board soon (need some connectors). I wish someone with good measurement equipment lived nearby. I would like to measure this vs my standard fury. I think the ocxo is mid 10-13 at 1s. Anybody near Kansas City? Doc Sent from my iPad On Sep 30, 2012, at 7:02 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: > Doc > The units I mentioned have been done by Corby, but I let units run two > weeks before I do any test. In the future when I do the 40+ two a week > running > parallel and the best rerun after 4 week soak. > Bert > > > In a message dated 9/30/2012 7:55:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > docdai...@gmail.com writes: > > Bert, > > When you do tests like this, how long do you let the oscillators "settle" > prior to testing? > > Doc > > Sent from my iPad > > On Sep 30, 2012, at 4:23 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: > >> Rick >> I have some 10811's all below 1 E-12 in the 1 to 100 sec. range, a few > as >> low as 4 E-13 at 10 seconds. How low have you seen, I have the > opportunity >> to test 40+ units and hope to find a few even better ones. Any guidance > will >> be appreciated. >> My best reference is 3 E-13 so any thing as good or better would have to > be >> tested by some one else after initial test. >> Bert Kehren >> . >> >> >> In a message dated 9/30/2012 3:49:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >> rich...@karlquist.com writes: >> >> I only measured one 10811. However, John Vig's tutorial >> (available at IEEE UFFC) rather categorically states that >> piezoelectric resonators have flicker noise of frequency. >> What I measured was most closely related to phase noise, >> as opposed to Allan Deviation. Phase noise of 10811's is >> more consistent unit to unit than ADEV and certain more consistent >> than aging. BTW, ADEV at HP was measured against a >> special 10811 that was 500 Hz off frequency. I was never >> able to find out how they arrived at this "golden" unit. >> But it seems clear that it could not have been the >> best ever unit for ADEV, thus the real "golden" units >> that came down the pike were simply rated as ADEV too good >> to measure. I tried to get a project started where we >> would use a frequency synthesizer to do the offset. >> Then we could take the best units and compared them against >> each other. Then, as well accumulated test data, the >> cream would gradually rise to the top and we would have >> some true golden units. The problem was that there ADEV >> at those levels wasn't a "money spec". >> >> Rick >> >> On 9/30/2012 12:16 PM, Ed Palmer wrote: >>> Would this characteristic be similar across all 10811s or would there > be >>> as much unit to unit variation as there is for aging and Allan > Deviation? >>> >>> Ed >>> >>> On 9/30/2012 11:03 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: I recently modified an old 10811 to bring out the crystal leads on miniature coax (instead of having them connect to the oscillator circuit). This allowed me to measure the crystal's inherent flicker noise of frequency. The measurements indicate that the 10811 phase noise out to at least 100 Hz is entirely due to the crystal. An interesting aspect of flicker noise of frequency is that Allan deviation is independent of tau. Thus, just one number describes the crystal noise. Rick On 9/30/2012 4:44 AM, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > Close in, it looks like it's pretty much the crystal and the loading > of the bridge oscillator. > > Bob > > On Sep 29, 2012, at 11:46 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist >wrote: > >> The E1938A uses a crystal that is basically the same as >> the 10811 crystal except that it is in a reduced height >> package. However the phase noise is not as good as a >> 10811 due to broadband noise in the automatic frequency >> control circuit. By the time I discovered this, it >> was too late to try to fix it. >> >> Rick Karlquist N6RK >> E1938A designer >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > ht
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments
Sorry I have never seen those statistics. Rick On 9/30/2012 2:23 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: Rick I have some 10811's all below 1 E-12 in the 1 to 100 sec. range, a few as low as 4 E-13 at 10 seconds. How low have you seen, I have the opportunity to test 40+ units and hope to find a few even better ones. Any guidance will be appreciated. My best reference is 3 E-13 so any thing as good or better would have to be tested by some one else after initial test. Bert Kehren ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments
On 9/30/2012 2:20 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote: With two such offset 10811s you could use DMTD methods or for that matter cross-correlation phase noise measures to more directly measure the units. That way you would have avoided the "golden unit" issue, since the phase noise of those would average out if treated well. Didn't you consider steps like that? I didn't "own" this system. Production engineering was very conservative and didn't want to change anything. Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments
Doc The units I mentioned have been done by Corby, but I let units run two weeks before I do any test. In the future when I do the 40+ two a week running parallel and the best rerun after 4 week soak. Bert In a message dated 9/30/2012 7:55:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, docdai...@gmail.com writes: Bert, When you do tests like this, how long do you let the oscillators "settle" prior to testing? Doc Sent from my iPad On Sep 30, 2012, at 4:23 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: > Rick > I have some 10811's all below 1 E-12 in the 1 to 100 sec. range, a few as > low as 4 E-13 at 10 seconds. How low have you seen, I have the opportunity > to test 40+ units and hope to find a few even better ones. Any guidance will > be appreciated. > My best reference is 3 E-13 so any thing as good or better would have to be > tested by some one else after initial test. > Bert Kehren > . > > > In a message dated 9/30/2012 3:49:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > rich...@karlquist.com writes: > > I only measured one 10811. However, John Vig's tutorial > (available at IEEE UFFC) rather categorically states that > piezoelectric resonators have flicker noise of frequency. > What I measured was most closely related to phase noise, > as opposed to Allan Deviation. Phase noise of 10811's is > more consistent unit to unit than ADEV and certain more consistent > than aging. BTW, ADEV at HP was measured against a > special 10811 that was 500 Hz off frequency. I was never > able to find out how they arrived at this "golden" unit. > But it seems clear that it could not have been the > best ever unit for ADEV, thus the real "golden" units > that came down the pike were simply rated as ADEV too good > to measure. I tried to get a project started where we > would use a frequency synthesizer to do the offset. > Then we could take the best units and compared them against > each other. Then, as well accumulated test data, the > cream would gradually rise to the top and we would have > some true golden units. The problem was that there ADEV > at those levels wasn't a "money spec". > > Rick > > On 9/30/2012 12:16 PM, Ed Palmer wrote: >> Would this characteristic be similar across all 10811s or would there be >> as much unit to unit variation as there is for aging and Allan Deviation? >> >> Ed >> >> On 9/30/2012 11:03 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: >>> I recently modified an old 10811 to bring out the crystal >>> leads on miniature coax (instead of having them connect >>> to the oscillator circuit). This allowed me to measure >>> the crystal's inherent flicker noise of frequency. >>> The measurements indicate that the 10811 phase noise out >>> to at least 100 Hz is entirely due to the crystal. >>> An interesting aspect of flicker noise of frequency >>> is that Allan deviation is independent of tau. Thus, >>> just one number describes the crystal noise. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> On 9/30/2012 4:44 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Close in, it looks like it's pretty much the crystal and the loading of the bridge oscillator. Bob On Sep 29, 2012, at 11:46 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: > The E1938A uses a crystal that is basically the same as > the 10811 crystal except that it is in a reduced height > package. However the phase noise is not as good as a > 10811 due to broadband noise in the automatic frequency > control circuit. By the time I discovered this, it > was too late to try to fix it. > > Rick Karlquist N6RK > E1938A designer >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments
Bert, When you do tests like this, how long do you let the oscillators "settle" prior to testing? Doc Sent from my iPad On Sep 30, 2012, at 4:23 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: > Rick > I have some 10811's all below 1 E-12 in the 1 to 100 sec. range, a few as > low as 4 E-13 at 10 seconds. How low have you seen, I have the opportunity > to test 40+ units and hope to find a few even better ones. Any guidance will > be appreciated. > My best reference is 3 E-13 so any thing as good or better would have to be > tested by some one else after initial test. > Bert Kehren > . > > > In a message dated 9/30/2012 3:49:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > rich...@karlquist.com writes: > > I only measured one 10811. However, John Vig's tutorial > (available at IEEE UFFC) rather categorically states that > piezoelectric resonators have flicker noise of frequency. > What I measured was most closely related to phase noise, > as opposed to Allan Deviation. Phase noise of 10811's is > more consistent unit to unit than ADEV and certain more consistent > than aging. BTW, ADEV at HP was measured against a > special 10811 that was 500 Hz off frequency. I was never > able to find out how they arrived at this "golden" unit. > But it seems clear that it could not have been the > best ever unit for ADEV, thus the real "golden" units > that came down the pike were simply rated as ADEV too good > to measure. I tried to get a project started where we > would use a frequency synthesizer to do the offset. > Then we could take the best units and compared them against > each other. Then, as well accumulated test data, the > cream would gradually rise to the top and we would have > some true golden units. The problem was that there ADEV > at those levels wasn't a "money spec". > > Rick > > On 9/30/2012 12:16 PM, Ed Palmer wrote: >> Would this characteristic be similar across all 10811s or would there be >> as much unit to unit variation as there is for aging and Allan Deviation? >> >> Ed >> >> On 9/30/2012 11:03 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: >>> I recently modified an old 10811 to bring out the crystal >>> leads on miniature coax (instead of having them connect >>> to the oscillator circuit). This allowed me to measure >>> the crystal's inherent flicker noise of frequency. >>> The measurements indicate that the 10811 phase noise out >>> to at least 100 Hz is entirely due to the crystal. >>> An interesting aspect of flicker noise of frequency >>> is that Allan deviation is independent of tau. Thus, >>> just one number describes the crystal noise. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> On 9/30/2012 4:44 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Close in, it looks like it's pretty much the crystal and the loading of the bridge oscillator. Bob On Sep 29, 2012, at 11:46 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: > The E1938A uses a crystal that is basically the same as > the 10811 crystal except that it is in a reduced height > package. However the phase noise is not as good as a > 10811 due to broadband noise in the automatic frequency > control circuit. By the time I discovered this, it > was too late to try to fix it. > > Rick Karlquist N6RK > E1938A designer >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments
Rick I have some 10811's all below 1 E-12 in the 1 to 100 sec. range, a few as low as 4 E-13 at 10 seconds. How low have you seen, I have the opportunity to test 40+ units and hope to find a few even better ones. Any guidance will be appreciated. My best reference is 3 E-13 so any thing as good or better would have to be tested by some one else after initial test. Bert Kehren . In a message dated 9/30/2012 3:49:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rich...@karlquist.com writes: I only measured one 10811. However, John Vig's tutorial (available at IEEE UFFC) rather categorically states that piezoelectric resonators have flicker noise of frequency. What I measured was most closely related to phase noise, as opposed to Allan Deviation. Phase noise of 10811's is more consistent unit to unit than ADEV and certain more consistent than aging. BTW, ADEV at HP was measured against a special 10811 that was 500 Hz off frequency. I was never able to find out how they arrived at this "golden" unit. But it seems clear that it could not have been the best ever unit for ADEV, thus the real "golden" units that came down the pike were simply rated as ADEV too good to measure. I tried to get a project started where we would use a frequency synthesizer to do the offset. Then we could take the best units and compared them against each other. Then, as well accumulated test data, the cream would gradually rise to the top and we would have some true golden units. The problem was that there ADEV at those levels wasn't a "money spec". Rick On 9/30/2012 12:16 PM, Ed Palmer wrote: > Would this characteristic be similar across all 10811s or would there be > as much unit to unit variation as there is for aging and Allan Deviation? > > Ed > > On 9/30/2012 11:03 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: >> I recently modified an old 10811 to bring out the crystal >> leads on miniature coax (instead of having them connect >> to the oscillator circuit). This allowed me to measure >> the crystal's inherent flicker noise of frequency. >> The measurements indicate that the 10811 phase noise out >> to at least 100 Hz is entirely due to the crystal. >> An interesting aspect of flicker noise of frequency >> is that Allan deviation is independent of tau. Thus, >> just one number describes the crystal noise. >> >> Rick >> >> On 9/30/2012 4:44 AM, Bob Camp wrote: >>> Hi >>> >>> Close in, it looks like it's pretty much the crystal and the loading >>> of the bridge oscillator. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> On Sep 29, 2012, at 11:46 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist >>> wrote: >>> The E1938A uses a crystal that is basically the same as the 10811 crystal except that it is in a reduced height package. However the phase noise is not as good as a 10811 due to broadband noise in the automatic frequency control circuit. By the time I discovered this, it was too late to try to fix it. Rick Karlquist N6RK E1938A designer > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments
On 09/30/2012 09:49 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: I only measured one 10811. However, John Vig's tutorial (available at IEEE UFFC) rather categorically states that piezoelectric resonators have flicker noise of frequency. What I measured was most closely related to phase noise, as opposed to Allan Deviation. Phase noise of 10811's is more consistent unit to unit than ADEV and certain more consistent than aging. BTW, ADEV at HP was measured against a special 10811 that was 500 Hz off frequency. I was never able to find out how they arrived at this "golden" unit. But it seems clear that it could not have been the best ever unit for ADEV, thus the real "golden" units that came down the pike were simply rated as ADEV too good to measure. I tried to get a project started where we would use a frequency synthesizer to do the offset. Then we could take the best units and compared them against each other. Then, as well accumulated test data, the cream would gradually rise to the top and we would have some true golden units. The problem was that there ADEV at those levels wasn't a "money spec". With two such offset 10811s you could use DMTD methods or for that matter cross-correlation phase noise measures to more directly measure the units. That way you would have avoided the "golden unit" issue, since the phase noise of those would average out if treated well. Didn't you consider steps like that? That's what I do in my lab these days. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments
I only measured one 10811. However, John Vig's tutorial (available at IEEE UFFC) rather categorically states that piezoelectric resonators have flicker noise of frequency. What I measured was most closely related to phase noise, as opposed to Allan Deviation. Phase noise of 10811's is more consistent unit to unit than ADEV and certain more consistent than aging. BTW, ADEV at HP was measured against a special 10811 that was 500 Hz off frequency. I was never able to find out how they arrived at this "golden" unit. But it seems clear that it could not have been the best ever unit for ADEV, thus the real "golden" units that came down the pike were simply rated as ADEV too good to measure. I tried to get a project started where we would use a frequency synthesizer to do the offset. Then we could take the best units and compared them against each other. Then, as well accumulated test data, the cream would gradually rise to the top and we would have some true golden units. The problem was that there ADEV at those levels wasn't a "money spec". Rick On 9/30/2012 12:16 PM, Ed Palmer wrote: Would this characteristic be similar across all 10811s or would there be as much unit to unit variation as there is for aging and Allan Deviation? Ed On 9/30/2012 11:03 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: I recently modified an old 10811 to bring out the crystal leads on miniature coax (instead of having them connect to the oscillator circuit). This allowed me to measure the crystal's inherent flicker noise of frequency. The measurements indicate that the 10811 phase noise out to at least 100 Hz is entirely due to the crystal. An interesting aspect of flicker noise of frequency is that Allan deviation is independent of tau. Thus, just one number describes the crystal noise. Rick On 9/30/2012 4:44 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Close in, it looks like it's pretty much the crystal and the loading of the bridge oscillator. Bob On Sep 29, 2012, at 11:46 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: The E1938A uses a crystal that is basically the same as the 10811 crystal except that it is in a reduced height package. However the phase noise is not as good as a 10811 due to broadband noise in the automatic frequency control circuit. By the time I discovered this, it was too late to try to fix it. Rick Karlquist N6RK E1938A designer ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments
Would this characteristic be similar across all 10811s or would there be as much unit to unit variation as there is for aging and Allan Deviation? Ed On 9/30/2012 11:03 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: I recently modified an old 10811 to bring out the crystal leads on miniature coax (instead of having them connect to the oscillator circuit). This allowed me to measure the crystal's inherent flicker noise of frequency. The measurements indicate that the 10811 phase noise out to at least 100 Hz is entirely due to the crystal. An interesting aspect of flicker noise of frequency is that Allan deviation is independent of tau. Thus, just one number describes the crystal noise. Rick On 9/30/2012 4:44 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Close in, it looks like it's pretty much the crystal and the loading of the bridge oscillator. Bob On Sep 29, 2012, at 11:46 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: The E1938A uses a crystal that is basically the same as the 10811 crystal except that it is in a reduced height package. However the phase noise is not as good as a 10811 due to broadband noise in the automatic frequency control circuit. By the time I discovered this, it was too late to try to fix it. Rick Karlquist N6RK E1938A designer ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments
Hi ….. any bets on it being a triple oven? :) Bob On Sep 30, 2012, at 1:26 PM, Tom Knox wrote: > > Rick it is really fantastic to see Time Nuts occasionally discuse different > aspects of products they actually designed. This form is really a treasure. > In the future it would be interesting to here how you would approach the next > quartz industry standard. The next generation Blue-Top or BVA. > Thanks; > Thomas Knox > > > >> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 10:03:03 -0700 >> From: rich...@karlquist.com >> To: time-nuts@febo.com >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments >> >> I recently modified an old 10811 to bring out the crystal >> leads on miniature coax (instead of having them connect >> to the oscillator circuit). This allowed me to measure >> the crystal's inherent flicker noise of frequency. >> The measurements indicate that the 10811 phase noise out >> to at least 100 Hz is entirely due to the crystal. >> An interesting aspect of flicker noise of frequency >> is that Allan deviation is independent of tau. Thus, >> just one number describes the crystal noise. >> >> Rick >> >> On 9/30/2012 4:44 AM, Bob Camp wrote: >>> Hi >>> >>> Close in, it looks like it's pretty much the crystal and the loading of the >>> bridge oscillator. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> On Sep 29, 2012, at 11:46 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist >>> wrote: >>> >>>> The E1938A uses a crystal that is basically the same as >>>> the 10811 crystal except that it is in a reduced height >>>> package. However the phase noise is not as good as a >>>> 10811 due to broadband noise in the automatic frequency >>>> control circuit. By the time I discovered this, it >>>> was too late to try to fix it. >>>> >>>> Rick Karlquist N6RK >>>> E1938A designer >>>> >>>> ___ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments
Rick it is really fantastic to see Time Nuts occasionally discuse different aspects of products they actually designed. This form is really a treasure. In the future it would be interesting to here how you would approach the next quartz industry standard. The next generation Blue-Top or BVA. Thanks; Thomas Knox > Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 10:03:03 -0700 > From: rich...@karlquist.com > To: time-nuts@febo.com > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments > > I recently modified an old 10811 to bring out the crystal > leads on miniature coax (instead of having them connect > to the oscillator circuit). This allowed me to measure > the crystal's inherent flicker noise of frequency. > The measurements indicate that the 10811 phase noise out > to at least 100 Hz is entirely due to the crystal. > An interesting aspect of flicker noise of frequency > is that Allan deviation is independent of tau. Thus, > just one number describes the crystal noise. > > Rick > > On 9/30/2012 4:44 AM, Bob Camp wrote: > > Hi > > > > Close in, it looks like it's pretty much the crystal and the loading of the > > bridge oscillator. > > > > Bob > > > > On Sep 29, 2012, at 11:46 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist > > wrote: > > > >> The E1938A uses a crystal that is basically the same as > >> the 10811 crystal except that it is in a reduced height > >> package. However the phase noise is not as good as a > >> 10811 due to broadband noise in the automatic frequency > >> control circuit. By the time I discovered this, it > >> was too late to try to fix it. > >> > >> Rick Karlquist N6RK > >> E1938A designer > >> > >> ___ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments
I recently modified an old 10811 to bring out the crystal leads on miniature coax (instead of having them connect to the oscillator circuit). This allowed me to measure the crystal's inherent flicker noise of frequency. The measurements indicate that the 10811 phase noise out to at least 100 Hz is entirely due to the crystal. An interesting aspect of flicker noise of frequency is that Allan deviation is independent of tau. Thus, just one number describes the crystal noise. Rick On 9/30/2012 4:44 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Close in, it looks like it's pretty much the crystal and the loading of the bridge oscillator. Bob On Sep 29, 2012, at 11:46 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: The E1938A uses a crystal that is basically the same as the 10811 crystal except that it is in a reduced height package. However the phase noise is not as good as a 10811 due to broadband noise in the automatic frequency control circuit. By the time I discovered this, it was too late to try to fix it. Rick Karlquist N6RK E1938A designer ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments
Hi Close in, it looks like it's pretty much the crystal and the loading of the bridge oscillator. Bob On Sep 29, 2012, at 11:46 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: > The E1938A uses a crystal that is basically the same as > the 10811 crystal except that it is in a reduced height > package. However the phase noise is not as good as a > 10811 due to broadband noise in the automatic frequency > control circuit. By the time I discovered this, it > was too late to try to fix it. > > Rick Karlquist N6RK > E1938A designer > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments
The E1938A uses a crystal that is basically the same as the 10811 crystal except that it is in a reduced height package. However the phase noise is not as good as a 10811 due to broadband noise in the automatic frequency control circuit. By the time I discovered this, it was too late to try to fix it. Rick Karlquist N6RK E1938A designer ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments
Bruce Griffiths wrote: Magnus Danielson wrote: On 09/29/2012 02:45 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote: For those that have Timelab the link to the E1938A PN measurement data is: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/59708595/E1938A.tim Thank you. I will measure mine so that we can compare them. Cross-correlation with a pair of BVAs should do it. Cheers, Magnus I'm still a little suspicious of the result, although measuring a second E1938A removed from a Z3815A produced similar results. I'll measure one of them again with an isolation transformer to eliminate an LF earth loop to see if the earth loop was an issue. Using a single reference (PN floor < -170dBc/Hz) should suffice for this. I didnt have RF isolation transformers available at the time. I have since found that using a single point LF ground (rather than floating the entire interferometer) reduces the interferometer PN floor substantially. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. Measuring the E1938A with a single point LF ground produces substantially the same result. A PN measurement using a different technique (classical mixer and low BW PLL) may be useful. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments
Magnus Danielson wrote: On 09/29/2012 02:45 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote: For those that have Timelab the link to the E1938A PN measurement data is: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/59708595/E1938A.tim Thank you. I will measure mine so that we can compare them. Cross-correlation with a pair of BVAs should do it. Cheers, Magnus I'm still a little suspicious of the result, although measuring a second E1938A removed from a Z3815A produced similar results. I'll measure one of them again with an isolation transformer to eliminate an LF earth loop to see if the earth loop was an issue. Using a single reference (PN floor < -170dBc/Hz) should suffice for this. I didnt have RF isolation transformers available at the time. I have since found that using a single point LF ground (rather than floating the entire interferometer) reduces the interferometer PN floor substantially. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments
On 09/29/2012 02:45 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote: For those that have Timelab the link to the E1938A PN measurement data is: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/59708595/E1938A.tim Thank you. I will measure mine so that we can compare them. Cross-correlation with a pair of BVAs should do it. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] E1938A PN measurments
For those that have Timelab the link to the E1938A PN measurement data is: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/59708595/E1938A.tim Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] E1938A - U105
Dick, I have a couple of "dead" E1938A's. Your more than welcome to a 'pulled' U105 if that's any help. Postage to the States would be reasonable. Kit VK2LL Sydney *** The E1938A I have has an empty socket for U105. Does anyone know what it was used for ? It is a 16C74 8 Bit uController. 73, Dick, W1KSZ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A Frequency Adjust Question
Dick, Schematics can be found on Brooke Clarke's site at http://www.prc68.com/I/HPE1938.shtml. Richard > I finally got to hooking up the E1938A I got. When > compared to my GPS based reference, I find it is > 6.6 Hz low. > > Is there a frequency adjust trimmer on the board ? > I don't have a schematic for it. > > Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A Frequency Adjust Question
There is no trimmer. You have to replace a fixed chip capacitor. The capacitor is on the flex circuit that connects to the crystal. Schematics have been posted; ask on the reflector. What tuning voltage were you using when you got the 6.6 Hz low reading? If zero, then you need to be applying some tuning voltage. It is unlikely that only 10 years of aging would have caused you to run out of tuning range. Rick N6RK Richard W. Solomon wrote: > I finally got to hooking up the E1938A I got. When > compared to my GPS based reference, I find it is > 6.6 Hz low. > > Is there a frequency adjust trimmer on the board ? > I don't have a schematic for it. > > Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] E1938A Frequency Adjust Question
I finally got to hooking up the E1938A I got. When compared to my GPS based reference, I find it is 6.6 Hz low. Is there a frequency adjust trimmer on the board ? I don't have a schematic for it. Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A Schematic
Brooke Clarke wrote: > Hi Adrian: > > For the last few days there has been a problem with FireFox. I too can > not see the page in Firefox but can with IE6. This applies to many web > pages. Must be winders-related. Looks fine here under Linux FireFox. John -- John DeArmond Tellico Plains, Occupied TN http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A Schematic
Brooke, seems it was just a temporary problem :) Now it works on both browsers, Mozilla Seamonkey and Opera. Great stuff! Thanks, Adrian Brooke Clarke schrieb: Hi Adrian: For the last few days there has been a problem with FireFox. I too can not see the page in Firefox but can with IE6. This applies to many web pages. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com Adrian wrote: I've tried two different browsers, but I only get either a blank page or weird code :( Cheers, Adrian Rex schrieb: Neville Michie wrote: Can someone point me to where I could get the schematic? Not that I want to pull my E1938A apart, just so I can appreciate the technology of the device. cheers, Neville Michie Here: http://www.prc68.com/I/HPE1938.shtml Lots of good info there. The schematic is in E1938pdfdocs.zip in the theory section. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A Schematic
It's not just Firefox, Brooke. It is also Opera, Mozilla/Seamonkey, and Konqueror. Your page has been hijacked by Microsoft. -Chuck Harris Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi Adrian: For the last few days there has been a problem with FireFox. I too can not see the page in Firefox but can with IE6. This applies to many web pages. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com Adrian wrote: I've tried two different browsers, but I only get either a blank page or weird code :( Cheers, Adrian Rex schrieb: Neville Michie wrote: Can someone point me to where I could get the schematic? Not that I want to pull my E1938A apart, just so I can appreciate the technology of the device. cheers, Neville Michie Here: http://www.prc68.com/I/HPE1938.shtml ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A Schematic
Hi Adrian: For the last few days there has been a problem with FireFox. I too can not see the page in Firefox but can with IE6. This applies to many web pages. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com Adrian wrote: I've tried two different browsers, but I only get either a blank page or weird code :( Cheers, Adrian Rex schrieb: Neville Michie wrote: Can someone point me to where I could get the schematic? Not that I want to pull my E1938A apart, just so I can appreciate the technology of the device. cheers, Neville Michie Here: http://www.prc68.com/I/HPE1938.shtml Lots of good info there. The schematic is in E1938pdfdocs.zip in the theory section. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A Schematic
Adrian wrote: I've tried two different browsers, but I only get either a blank page or weird code :( I managed to get back to a main page at http://www.prc68.com/I/index.html#S Try emailing the owner of the site to see if he can help as all I got was strange characters using Opera as well. Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A Schematic
I've tried two different browsers, but I only get either a blank page or weird code :( Cheers, Adrian Rex schrieb: Neville Michie wrote: Can someone point me to where I could get the schematic? Not that I want to pull my E1938A apart, just so I can appreciate the technology of the device. cheers, Neville Michie Here: http://www.prc68.com/I/HPE1938.shtml Lots of good info there. The schematic is in E1938pdfdocs.zip in the theory section. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A Schematic
Neville Michie wrote: Can someone point me to where I could get the schematic? Not that I want to pull my E1938A apart, just so I can appreciate the technology of the device. cheers, Neville Michie Here: http://www.prc68.com/I/HPE1938.shtml Lots of good info there. The schematic is in E1938pdfdocs.zip in the theory section. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A Schematic
Can someone point me to where I could get the schematic? Not that I want to pull my E1938A apart, just so I can appreciate the technology of the device. cheers, Neville Michie ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A Schematic
Brian Kirby wrote: In Acrobat you should also have a "tile" command in the print/setup windows where you can spread a page print across four pages. Then you can manually cut and paste the print outs to get a larger view. Brian - KD4FM That's something I never found before. Good trick; lots less work. It seems to be a function of the printer driver, not Acrobat itself. For my printer it is under Properties -- Finishing -- Pages per Sheet and Posters: Select Poster 2x2 or 3x3, etc. A lot easier than my manual method, with one minor exception. The transition line between pages is exact, no overlap, so accurate cutting would be required not to lose or cover anything at the boundary. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A Schematic
Rex wrote: Richard W. Solomon wrote: Anyone know where I can get a "C" or "D" size schematic of the E1938A? One that I can read !! 73, Dick, W1KSZ I assume you have the pdf schematic that Rick K shared with us a while ago. There's plenty of detail in there, you just can't see it if you print the whole thing to one letter-sized page. One option is to take the file to a copy place like Kinkos (or what ever they are called now) and have them print it on bigger paper. Or, on your own, you can try this... (your mileage may vary depending on OS, tools, or printer driver.) Open the file in Adobe reader. On the size-percentage at the top, set it to 100% or 125%. Scroll to the upper left corner of the schematic on your screen. Send it to the printer. When I do this my printer driver window opens. Change the Print Range to 'Current View' so you're just printing the section you were viewing. You may need to change to Landscape mode for best fit - for me this is buried in Properties. I changed Page Scaling to 'Fit to Printer Margins' to best fill the page. You probably want that or Normal. Print it. If it is readable, your are close, if not, go back to Adobe and increase the % setting. When you can read the section on the printed version ok, print the whole schematic by scrolling the view in Adobe and printing it in sections. If you keep the % setting the same in reader between pages they should match. Get some scissors and tape and put the pieces together. Not pretty, but I've done it before to get something I can work with. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. In Acrobat you should also have a "tile" command in the print/setup windows where you can spread a page print across four pages. Then you can manually cut and paste the print outs to get a larger view. Brian - KD4FM ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A Schematic
Write the .pdf to a flash card & take it to Staples. They can print oversized (30" x tens of feet) pages. Pretty cheap too. -John > Richard W. Solomon wrote: > >>Anyone know where I can get a "C" or "D" size schematic of the E1938A? >>One that I can read !! >> >>73, Dick, W1KSZ >> >> >> > > I assume you have the pdf schematic that Rick K shared with us a while > ago. There's plenty of detail in there, you just can't see it if you > print the whole thing to one letter-sized page. One option is to take > the file to a copy place like Kinkos (or what ever they are called now) > and have them print it on bigger paper. > > Or, on your own, you can try this... (your mileage may vary depending on > OS, tools, or printer driver.) Open the file in Adobe reader. On the > size-percentage at the top, set it to 100% or 125%. Scroll to the upper > left corner of the schematic on your screen. Send it to the printer. > When I do this my printer driver window opens. Change the Print Range to > 'Current View' so you're just printing the section you were viewing. You > may need to change to Landscape mode for best fit - for me this is > buried in Properties. I changed Page Scaling to 'Fit to Printer Margins' > to best fill the page. You probably want that or Normal. > > Print it. If it is readable, your are close, if not, go back to Adobe > and increase the % setting. When you can read the section on the printed > version ok, print the whole schematic by scrolling the view in Adobe and > printing it in sections. If you keep the % setting the same in reader > between pages they should match. Get some scissors and tape and put the > pieces together. > > Not pretty, but I've done it before to get something I can work with. > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A Schematic
Richard W. Solomon wrote: Anyone know where I can get a "C" or "D" size schematic of the E1938A? One that I can read !! 73, Dick, W1KSZ I assume you have the pdf schematic that Rick K shared with us a while ago. There's plenty of detail in there, you just can't see it if you print the whole thing to one letter-sized page. One option is to take the file to a copy place like Kinkos (or what ever they are called now) and have them print it on bigger paper. Or, on your own, you can try this... (your mileage may vary depending on OS, tools, or printer driver.) Open the file in Adobe reader. On the size-percentage at the top, set it to 100% or 125%. Scroll to the upper left corner of the schematic on your screen. Send it to the printer. When I do this my printer driver window opens. Change the Print Range to 'Current View' so you're just printing the section you were viewing. You may need to change to Landscape mode for best fit - for me this is buried in Properties. I changed Page Scaling to 'Fit to Printer Margins' to best fill the page. You probably want that or Normal. Print it. If it is readable, your are close, if not, go back to Adobe and increase the % setting. When you can read the section on the printed version ok, print the whole schematic by scrolling the view in Adobe and printing it in sections. If you keep the % setting the same in reader between pages they should match. Get some scissors and tape and put the pieces together. Not pretty, but I've done it before to get something I can work with. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] E1938A Schematic
Anyone know where I can get a "C" or "D" size schematic of the E1938A? One that I can read !! 73, Dick, W1KSZ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A
Hi Magnus, Sorry, I misunderstood your post. Cheers, Steve 2009/5/1 Magnus Danielson > Dear Steve, > > Steve Rooke skrev: > >> Hi Magnus, >> >> I don't know if I get you right here but I have a copy of the 10811A/B >> operation and service manual if you need it. The two files I have are >> similar, one is 3.1Mb and the other is 8Mb. I can send them to you if that >> would be helpful. >> > > I have an original HP 10811A/B operations and service manual and also have > scanned versions lying around. Many thanks for the kind offer, but I already > have that material. I was wondering if they ever produced the equivalent for > the E1938A oscillator. > > Cheers, > Magnus > > > Cheers, >> Steve >> >> 2009/5/1 Magnus Danielson >> >> Fellow time-nuts (and Rick in particular), >>> >>> I have been looking through the E1938A documentation available from >>> fellow >>> time-nuts. There is some juicy pieces of information, but also some >>> holes. >>> >>> I does not recall having seing a datasheet or users manual, as available >>> for the 10811 devices. >>> >>> I (think) understand what RX and TX is for, the serial port at CMOS/TTL >>> levels, as it hookes directly to the PIC. But I wonder what the Data to >>> PIC, >>> Data from PIC and PIC data ready is meant to do, looks like a second >>> serial >>> port of some sort. >>> >>> Also, I found another article on it which is not on Ricks homepage where >>> various design decisions etc on production is described. I have not >>> bothered >>> to download it from IEEE, but if Rick could make it available that would >>> be >>> a welcome and interesting reading. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Magnus >>> >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >> >> >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A
Dear Steve, Steve Rooke skrev: Hi Magnus, I don't know if I get you right here but I have a copy of the 10811A/B operation and service manual if you need it. The two files I have are similar, one is 3.1Mb and the other is 8Mb. I can send them to you if that would be helpful. I have an original HP 10811A/B operations and service manual and also have scanned versions lying around. Many thanks for the kind offer, but I already have that material. I was wondering if they ever produced the equivalent for the E1938A oscillator. Cheers, Magnus Cheers, Steve 2009/5/1 Magnus Danielson Fellow time-nuts (and Rick in particular), I have been looking through the E1938A documentation available from fellow time-nuts. There is some juicy pieces of information, but also some holes. I does not recall having seing a datasheet or users manual, as available for the 10811 devices. I (think) understand what RX and TX is for, the serial port at CMOS/TTL levels, as it hookes directly to the PIC. But I wonder what the Data to PIC, Data from PIC and PIC data ready is meant to do, looks like a second serial port of some sort. Also, I found another article on it which is not on Ricks homepage where various design decisions etc on production is described. I have not bothered to download it from IEEE, but if Rick could make it available that would be a welcome and interesting reading. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A
Hi Magnus, I don't know if I get you right here but I have a copy of the 10811A/B operation and service manual if you need it. The two files I have are similar, one is 3.1Mb and the other is 8Mb. I can send them to you if that would be helpful. Cheers, Steve 2009/5/1 Magnus Danielson > Fellow time-nuts (and Rick in particular), > > I have been looking through the E1938A documentation available from fellow > time-nuts. There is some juicy pieces of information, but also some holes. > > I does not recall having seing a datasheet or users manual, as available > for the 10811 devices. > > I (think) understand what RX and TX is for, the serial port at CMOS/TTL > levels, as it hookes directly to the PIC. But I wonder what the Data to PIC, > Data from PIC and PIC data ready is meant to do, looks like a second serial > port of some sort. > > Also, I found another article on it which is not on Ricks homepage where > various design decisions etc on production is described. I have not bothered > to download it from IEEE, but if Rick could make it available that would be > a welcome and interesting reading. > > Cheers, > Magnus > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] E1938A
Fellow time-nuts (and Rick in particular), I have been looking through the E1938A documentation available from fellow time-nuts. There is some juicy pieces of information, but also some holes. I does not recall having seing a datasheet or users manual, as available for the 10811 devices. I (think) understand what RX and TX is for, the serial port at CMOS/TTL levels, as it hookes directly to the PIC. But I wonder what the Data to PIC, Data from PIC and PIC data ready is meant to do, looks like a second serial port of some sort. Also, I found another article on it which is not on Ricks homepage where various design decisions etc on production is described. I have not bothered to download it from IEEE, but if Rick could make it available that would be a welcome and interesting reading. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A oscillator pinning
); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY I have sent all my E1938A documentation to Brooke Clarke. He will be posting it. Regarding pinout: I sent him a really definitive pinout diagram consisting of a photograph of the top and bottom of the board with red arrows pointing to pins and giving the functions. This is totally idiot proof. Due to various shenanigans with mounting connectors on the wrong side of the board, and using special connectors, etc., there is some chance of getting the numbering wrong. I think you should only go by the photographs with the circles and arrows (this is reminding me of the lyrics to "Alice's Restaurant" about the "27 8x10 color glossy photos with circles and arrows" etc). Rick N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A oscillator pinning
); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY In a message dated 8/27/2007 17:29:05 Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Seems one of those "GND" pins is actually a "heater on" type of pin. >It might be the return for the heater so the IR drop in the high current >heater path doesn't offset the ground for the control signals. That's what I thought at first too, but in Tom's description all GND pins are named the same. Isn't it fun to experiment with these ?! bye, Said ** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A oscillator pinning
); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY In a message dated 8/27/2007 17:56:45 Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >is ovenized provides a stable 2.5V to bias the diode if >you >do NOT want to use the EFC. >*** Hi Kit, that's what I thought! I guess it's better to use the internal reference since it's ovenized, even though it's not exactly 2.5V. BTW: the 0V to 5V EFC range and 10MHz output makes it a perfect target for disciplining by our Fury GPSDO with OCXO SMA connector-option. Will report later on how that works out. bye, Said ** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A oscillator pinning
); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY Thank you Bruce Griffiths wrote: > ); SAEximRunCond expanded to false > Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY > > Dick, W1KSZ wrote: >> I have one of these E1938A's. Where is this site you are referring to ? >> >> Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ >> >> > Dick > > E1938A: > http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/e1938a/ > > Z3815A: > http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/z3815a/ > > > Bruce > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- 73, Dick, W1KSZ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] E1938A oscillator pinning
); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY Said, The DB25 pinning is as per TVB's web site: http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/e1938a/ The EFC voltage info is as follows (courtesy of Rick K): *** The 10811 was bipolar +/-5V as you said. The cathode of the tuning diode was connected to a 6.2V zener diode that was sort of ovenized. The concept was that if you did NOT want to use the EFC, you simply grounded the EFC pin. The E1938A has unipolar 0V to 5V EFC with the anode of the tuning diode grounded. A 2.5V reference IC that really is ovenized provides a stable 2.5V to bias the diode if you do NOT want to use the EFC. *** I concur with Bruce's on-board LED description. My experience is that the "hockey-puck" oven takes close on 15 minutes to "stabilise" (settle) - in the Z3815 at least ! Regards, Kit VK2LL Sydney (user of many Z3815A GPSDO's) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A oscillator pinning
); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY Dick, W1KSZ wrote: > I have one of these E1938A's. Where is this site you are referring to ? > > Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ > > Dick E1938A: http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/e1938a/ Z3815A: http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/z3815a/ Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A oscillator pinning
); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hi Bruce, > > I got it to work, it even locks to -5Hz within 5 minutes and the Amber LED > goes off. > > The problem was that I had only applied GND to the shield of the connector. > I added a wire to the EFC pin to EFC return, and connected the three GND pins > of the connector, and magically it started working. > > Seems one of those "GND" pins is actually a "heater on" type of pin. > > Now I will do some experiments, it seems EFC should be 2.5V for the output > to be on frequency (not 0V). > > Another interesting observation: my unit has 2.532V on the reference output. > I could probably try to locate the reference, and replace it with something > more modern and stable. > > Lastly, the unit seems to have a slow 2-4 second sinusoidial drift in parts > to the -11 when measuring it's output on my 53132A after about 10 minutes > warmup. Wonder if that's the oven heater control loop... > > bye, > Said > > Said There are 3 LT1121I 2.5V references on the board, one located near the ADC, one near the devices with heatsinks and yet another near the 4 pin header at the rear of the board (end nearest the D - connector). There may also be one inside the oven - the osc.pdf paper indicates this. As long as the voltage is stable the exact value is unimportant. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A oscillator pinning
); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY I have one of these E1938A's. Where is this site you are referring to ? Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ Bruce Griffiths wrote: > ); SAEximRunCond expanded to false > Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> Thanks Bruce, >> >> I hooked +12V and +5V up to it, but there is no heater current, and no >> LED's >> go on. There is however a small current into the +12V (90mA) and the >> 10.0MHz >> are being generated with a significant error since the crystal is at room >> temp. >> >> Wonder what I am doing wrong? >> >> bye, >> Said >> >> > Said > > Look at the Z3815A and the E1938A on TVB's website and note the subtle > difference between the E1938A installed in the Z3815A which only has a > single DAC and the other E1938A which appears to have 2 DACs. > > Which E1938A version do you have? > > Bruce > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- 73, Dick, W1KSZ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A oscillator pinning
); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY > Seems one of those "GND" pins is actually a "heater on" type of pin. It might be the return for the heater so the IR drop in the high current heater path doesn't offset the ground for the control signals. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A oscillator pinning
); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY In a message dated 8/27/2007 17:09:17 Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >Which E1938A version do you have? Hi Bruce, I've got the "two-dac" version with the connector bottom-mounted... bye, Said ** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A oscillator pinning
); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY Hi Bruce, I got it to work, it even locks to -5Hz within 5 minutes and the Amber LED goes off. The problem was that I had only applied GND to the shield of the connector. I added a wire to the EFC pin to EFC return, and connected the three GND pins of the connector, and magically it started working. Seems one of those "GND" pins is actually a "heater on" type of pin. Now I will do some experiments, it seems EFC should be 2.5V for the output to be on frequency (not 0V). Another interesting observation: my unit has 2.532V on the reference output. I could probably try to locate the reference, and replace it with something more modern and stable. Lastly, the unit seems to have a slow 2-4 second sinusoidial drift in parts to the -11 when measuring it's output on my 53132A after about 10 minutes warmup. Wonder if that's the oven heater control loop... bye, Said ** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A oscillator pinning
); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Thanks Bruce, > > I hooked +12V and +5V up to it, but there is no heater current, and no LED's > go on. There is however a small current into the +12V (90mA) and the 10.0MHz > are being generated with a significant error since the crystal is at room > temp. > > Wonder what I am doing wrong? > > bye, > Said > > Said Look at the Z3815A and the E1938A on TVB's website and note the subtle difference between the E1938A installed in the Z3815A which only has a single DAC and the other E1938A which appears to have 2 DACs. Which E1938A version do you have? Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A oscillator pinning
); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Thanks Bruce, > > I hooked +12V and +5V up to it, but there is no heater current, and no LED's > go on. There is however a small current into the +12V (90mA) and the 10.0MHz > are being generated with a significant error since the crystal is at room > temp. > > Wonder what I am doing wrong? > > bye, > Said > > Said Yes with the oven cold the frequency error is much larger than for an AT crystal. One LED on the front of the PCB flashes green when the device is powered up OK, another glows orange until the oven reaches temperature. The LED near the input connector glows green. LEDS near front of board: Amber OFF | | OFF Green | _ The oven current is quite high at startup. The GPSDXO version requires around 24V@ 60W to startup (it has dc-dc converters on the main board to produce +12V, +12V etc). Amber led starts ON then after a while it flashes. Then it turns off when OVEN is at operating temperature. The green LED flashes throughout. The other 2 LEDS indicate other conditions. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A oscillator pinning
); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hi there, > > I'll break the silence :) > > does anyone know about the EFC voltage compatibility range for the E1938A > oscillator? Is it 0V to 5V, or -5V to +5V etc? > > How about the serial interfaces mentioned on Tom's website, are there any > datasheets, user-manual, schematics etc available that explain these in more > detail? > > Thanks, > Said > Said The E1938A may have several variants as at least one of them only uses a single DAC (AD7243AR), presumably for the oven controller. There is an LT1054I nearby, presumably to provide -12V for the DAC Vss supply. The only opamp on the board is an LMC660AIM quad CMOS opamp However readback of the EFC voltage is possible (presumably via the AD7714). Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A oscillator pinning
); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY In a message dated 8/27/2007 15:36:31 Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >There is also an EFC DAC (at least according to the osc.pdf paper on >Rick's site) which suggests that it may be possible to eliminate an >external DAC when the E1938A is locked to an external reference such as >the PPS output of a GPS timing receiver. >Bruce Thanks Bruce, I hooked +12V and +5V up to it, but there is no heater current, and no LED's go on. There is however a small current into the +12V (90mA) and the 10.0MHz are being generated with a significant error since the crystal is at room temp. Wonder what I am doing wrong? bye, Said ** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A oscillator pinning
); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hi there, > > I'll break the silence :) > > does anyone know about the EFC voltage compatibility range for the E1938A > oscillator? Is it 0V to 5V, or -5V to +5V etc? > > How about the serial interfaces mentioned on Tom's website, are there any > datasheets, user-manual, schematics etc available that explain these in more > detail? > > Thanks, > Said > > > > ** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > Said Since the AD7714 (0 - +5V input range with gain = 1 and 2.5V reference) monitors the EFC voltage, unless there is an input attenuator and/or level shift circuit in front of the AD7714, the EFC voltage will not exceed 5V nor go below 0V. There is also an EFC DAC (at least according to the osc.pdf paper on Rick's site) which suggests that it may be possible to eliminate an external DAC when the E1938A is locked to an external reference such as the PPS output of a GPS timing receiver. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] E1938A oscillator pinning
); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY Hi there, I'll break the silence :) does anyone know about the EFC voltage compatibility range for the E1938A oscillator? Is it 0V to 5V, or -5V to +5V etc? How about the serial interfaces mentioned on Tom's website, are there any datasheets, user-manual, schematics etc available that explain these in more detail? Thanks, Said ** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] E1938A oscillator status
I have 138 emails asking about E1938 oscillators that I need to go through. This will take some time. Please do not send emails asking about your status. If you are chosen, you will hear from me eventually. I don't have time to respond individually to every email. I am doing this for free in my spare time, so it is not my top priority. However, I am determined to get all of the oscillators distributed within a month or so. I also need to work on the E1938A documentation effort. It is worth noting that 10's of thousands of these oscillators were made. Maybe some of them will surface on the surplus market. It's not like the 37 I have are the only ones in existence. Rick Karlquist N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
