Re: [time-nuts] Minicircuits specs

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 08.12.2014 um 19:26 schrieb Richard (Rick) Karlquist:

Please Gerhard, more details on your choke
(medium size red Amidon core & two 220 uH Siemens chokes).
Maybe I can use it for 160 meter antennas.

Siemens Chokes:  yellow, 5.5mm dia, 27 mm long, a single ferrite rod
with a lot of turns. They still have the S&H logo, must be >> 20 years old
221.9 uH  Q=17 at 100 KHz, measured on the 4274A impedance meter.

Amidon: Red, the usual 80m material, 20.5mm o.d. 17 turns 0.5mm CuAg
1.962 uH Q=24 at 100 KHz

pic of the inductors at
< 
https://picasaweb.google.com/103357048842463945642/Tronix?authuser=0&feat=directlink>


The board in the background is my 5/10 MHz buffer, NIST FET doubler with 
2*BF862,
distribution amplifier 4 * 12 dBm based on AD8009 / LMH6702, in statu 
nascendi.

Yesterday I drew & etched the board, at the moment I'm just populating it.
All 0603, sot23-5 and the like. Size is just 32 * 68 mm without the 
protruding SMAs.


The next picture is how the Lucent RFTG-u REF1 looks with the board 
mounted inside.


And many thanks to the people who wrote up  how to power up the Lucent.
It has helped me a lot.

regards, Gerhard, dk4xp


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Re: [time-nuts] Minicircuits specs

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 08.12.2014 um 18:57 schrieb Dave M:


The text on the screen shots is a bit hard to read, but I think the 
curves told me what I wanted to know..As with most other devices, it's 
best to stay away from the Max figures on the datasheet.
You can get the pictures by  action -> download and then watch them 
locally with the picture viewer of your choice.


regards, Gerhard


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Re: [time-nuts] Minicircuits specs

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

Please Gerhard, more details on your choke
(medium size red Amidon core & two 220 uH Siemens chokes).
Maybe I can use it for 160 meter antennas.

Your T1-1 measurements make sense according to
my experience with these things.  The "-6"
series (T1-6, etc) has larger cores and should
withstand more DC.  (I like to take apart
MCL stuff to see what is inside; very enlightening).
I always use the -6 series for 160 meter work.

Thanks, 73

Rick Karlquist N6RK

On 12/7/2014 10:14 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:

Am 29.11.2014 um 20:01 schrieb Gerhard Hoffmann:



DG8SAQ VNWA, my best DC block from PSPL because it also has the
lowest lower corner. It took some experimenting to find a choke that
would not modify S21 and carry the current. Finally: a medium size
red Amidon core & two 220uH Siemens chokes with a looong air gap.


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Re: [time-nuts] Minicircuits specs

[Dave M]

Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:

Am 29.11.2014 um 20:01 schrieb Gerhard Hoffmann:

Am 29.11.2014 um 19:08 schrieb Thomas S. Knutsen:

2014-11-29 16:24 GMT+01:00 Dave M :

Yeah, that's a good way to completely avoid the issue.  Since I'm
the only
target audience for my efforts, then I don't mind the extra
components. I'm beginning to realize, as I get deeper into building
my own stuff, that
a VNA is quite a desireable piece of equipment.  Unfortunately, I'll
have
to make use of my spectrum analyzer and RLC meters instead.



Ok, I volunteer to measure the S21 of a dc-force-fed T1-1 or T4-1
next weekend, when
I'm back home.  (DG8SAQ VNWA and / or W&G TSA-2)
Really, on osc, a voltmeter and a DC source are enough.




Here it is:   Mini circuits T1-1T, new very old stock, still in black
case, not
one of the new whitish ones that turn brown in the week after
soldering.
0 / 25 / 50 / 100 mA on the secondary side from Agilent 6633B dc
supply. It is nice that you can directly type in the voltages or currents.
But you better do not take this thing for anything that is sensitive
to noise.

DG8SAQ VNWA, my best DC block from PSPL because it also has the
lowest lower corner. It took some experimenting to find a choke that
would not modify S21 and carry the current. Finally: a medium size
red Amidon core & two 220uH Siemens chokes with a looong air gap.

<
https://picasaweb.google.com/103357048842463945642/Tronix?authuser=0&feat=directlink




The low frequency corner suffers already at 25 mA. The high frequency
side is unimpressed by the current. Just what one expects from a
transmission line
transformer that gets ferrite as an anabolicum for the low
frequencies.
The transformer survived 1A for a short time and did not seem to
suffer from that abuse s-parameter-wise.

regards, Gerhard




Many thanks for the graphs, Gerhard.  I suspected that the low end would be 
the first to suffer, but didn't know how much.  Those curves explain the 
reason for the 30ma limit; it's to keep the devices' specs definable.  With 
a higher limit, the insertion loss specs would be terrible, and nobody would 
buy them.
The text on the screen shots is a bit hard to read, but I think the curves 
told me what I wanted to know..As with most other devices, it's best to stay 
away from the Max figures on the datasheet.


Thanks for taking the trouble to make the measurements and share the 
results.


Dave M 



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Re: [time-nuts] Minicircuits specs

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 29.11.2014 um 20:01 schrieb Gerhard Hoffmann:

Am 29.11.2014 um 19:08 schrieb Thomas S. Knutsen:

2014-11-29 16:24 GMT+01:00 Dave M :

Yeah, that's a good way to completely avoid the issue.  Since I'm the 
only

target audience for my efforts, then I don't mind the extra components.
I'm beginning to realize, as I get deeper into building my own stuff, 
that
a VNA is quite a desireable piece of equipment.  Unfortunately, I'll 
have

to make use of my spectrum analyzer and RLC meters instead.



Ok, I volunteer to measure the S21 of a dc-force-fed T1-1 or T4-1 next 
weekend, when

I'm back home.  (DG8SAQ VNWA and / or W&G TSA-2)
Really, on osc, a voltmeter and a DC source are enough.




Here it is:   Mini circuits T1-1T, new very old stock, still in black 
case, not

one of the new whitish ones that turn brown in the week after soldering.

0 / 25 / 50 / 100 mA on the secondary side from Agilent 6633B dc supply.
It is nice that you can directly type in the voltages or currents.
But you better do not take this thing for anything that is sensitive to 
noise.


DG8SAQ VNWA, my best DC block from PSPL because it also has the
lowest lower corner. It took some experimenting to find a choke that
would not modify S21 and carry the current. Finally: a medium size
red Amidon core & two 220uH Siemens chokes with a looong air gap.

< 
https://picasaweb.google.com/103357048842463945642/Tronix?authuser=0&feat=directlink 
>


The low frequency corner suffers already at 25 mA. The high frequency side
is unimpressed by the current. Just what one expects from a transmission 
line

transformer that gets ferrite as an anabolicum for the low frequencies.

The transformer survived 1A for a short time and did not seem to suffer
from that abuse s-parameter-wise.

regards, Gerhard


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Re: [time-nuts] Minicircuits specs

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 29.11.2014 um 19:08 schrieb Thomas S. Knutsen:

2014-11-29 16:24 GMT+01:00 Dave M :

Yeah, that's a good way to completely avoid the issue.  Since I'm the only
target audience for my efforts, then I don't mind the extra components.
I'm beginning to realize, as I get deeper into building my own stuff, that
a VNA is quite a desireable piece of equipment.  Unfortunately, I'll have
to make use of my spectrum analyzer and RLC meters instead.



Ok, I volunteer to measure the S21 of a dc-force-fed T1-1 or T4-1 next 
weekend, when

I'm back home.  (DG8SAQ VNWA and / or W&G TSA-2)
Really, on osc, a voltmeter and a DC source are enough.


Brr. (its probably cold up here in the north :)
Thomas LA3PNA.


Not only there. I was this afternoon for 3 hours with a motor bike on the
Suebian Alp in southern Germany, just 3°C above the freezing point.
The last half hour was not so pleasant.

regards, Gerhard, dk4xp



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Re: [time-nuts] Minicircuits specs

[Oz-in-DFW]

On 11/29/2014 12:08 PM, Thomas S. Knutsen wrote:

2014-11-29 16:24 GMT+01:00 Dave M :



Yeah, that's a good way to completely avoid the issue.  Since I'm the only
target audience for my efforts, then I don't mind the extra components.
I'm beginning to realize, as I get deeper into building my own stuff, that
a VNA is quite a desireable piece of equipment.  Unfortunately, I'll have
to make use of my spectrum analyzer and RLC meters instead.



Going a bit off topic, but there are decent VNA's avaible for an fair
price. There is the N2PK VNA thats avaible as an board + digikey partlist
and gives a 120dB dynamic range VNA from 10KHz to 50MHz, or there are the
VNWA avaible ready buildt from the UK with 70-80dB dynamic range to 1.3GHz.
Those are the ones I know that have true phase reading and can solve for
the sign of the phase.

Of course there are older HP or R&S boxes, and probably others as well, and
by shopping around one can get decent gear at a fair price, but with some
added complexity of doing the measurments.
Having an VNA helps doing measurments, but a lot of cool things can be done
with a spectrum analyzer, adding a simple return loss bridge makes that
into an quite decent scalar VNA.

Brr. (its probably cold up here in the north :)
Thomas LA3PNA.


Or the DG8SAQ 1.3 GHz VNA for about £350 GBP or ~$550 I suspect this is 
what you are calling the "VNWA available ready built from the UK with 
70-80dB dynamic range to 1.3GHz."


http://sdr-kits.net/VNWA3_Description.html

--
mailto:o...@ozindfw.net
Oz
POB 93167
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport)



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Re: [time-nuts] Minicircuits specs

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

2014-11-29 16:24 GMT+01:00 Dave M :


>
> Yeah, that's a good way to completely avoid the issue.  Since I'm the only
> target audience for my efforts, then I don't mind the extra components.
> I'm beginning to realize, as I get deeper into building my own stuff, that
> a VNA is quite a desireable piece of equipment.  Unfortunately, I'll have
> to make use of my spectrum analyzer and RLC meters instead.
>
>
Going a bit off topic, but there are decent VNA's avaible for an fair
price. There is the N2PK VNA thats avaible as an board + digikey partlist
and gives a 120dB dynamic range VNA from 10KHz to 50MHz, or there are the
VNWA avaible ready buildt from the UK with 70-80dB dynamic range to 1.3GHz.
Those are the ones I know that have true phase reading and can solve for
the sign of the phase.

Of course there are older HP or R&S boxes, and probably others as well, and
by shopping around one can get decent gear at a fair price, but with some
added complexity of doing the measurments.
Having an VNA helps doing measurments, but a lot of cool things can be done
with a spectrum analyzer, adding a simple return loss bridge makes that
into an quite decent scalar VNA.

Brr. (its probably cold up here in the north :)
Thomas LA3PNA.


-- 

 Please  avoid sending  me  Word  or  PowerPoint  attachments.
 See  
PDF is an better alternative and there are always LaTeX!
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Re: [time-nuts] Minicircuits specs

[Charles Steinmetz]

Bob wrote:

My past experience with Minicircuits is that they will not give you 
any data the "extends" the spec on a part. Simply put - if you are 
after 1 MHz data on a part that stops at 10, they are not likely to supply it.


I've had better luck getting data from them that is just not stated 
(as opposed to being outside a stated spec) -- for example, the 
nominal inductance of windings.  I suspect the same might be true if 
someone asked, "What exactly do you mean by 'DC: 30mA?' "  You 
probably wouldn't get hard data or graphs, but they might give you an 
idea of how they arrived at that spec.


In the end, though, the only way to be sure a certain part will work 
in any particular circuit is to build and test it.


Don't forget, you can generally keep DC out of transformer windings 
with shunt coupling (use an RF choke for the DC path, and capacitor 
couple into the transformer winding).  It's an unwanted complexity, 
but some builders may prefer it to winding their own transformers.


Best regards,

Charles



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[time-nuts] Minicircuits specs

[Arthur Dent]

Here is a link to a pretty exhaustive list of MCL models
that would be handy if you only need published specs.

-Arthur

http://www.minicircuits.com/MCLStore/ModelSearch?model=
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Re: [time-nuts] Minicircuits specs

[Dave M]

Charles Steinmetz wrote:

Bob wrote:


My past experience with Minicircuits is that they will not give you
any data the "extends" the spec on a part. Simply put - if you are
after 1 MHz data on a part that stops at 10, they are not likely to
supply it.


I've had better luck getting data from them that is just not stated
(as opposed to being outside a stated spec) -- for example, the
nominal inductance of windings.  I suspect the same might be true if
someone asked, "What exactly do you mean by 'DC: 30mA?' "  You
probably wouldn't get hard data or graphs, but they might give you an
idea of how they arrived at that spec.

In the end, though, the only way to be sure a certain part will work
in any particular circuit is to build and test it.

Don't forget, you can generally keep DC out of transformer windings
with shunt coupling (use an RF choke for the DC path, and capacitor
couple into the transformer winding).  It's an unwanted complexity,
but some builders may prefer it to winding their own transformers.

Best regards,

Charles



Yeah, that's a good way to completely avoid the issue.  Since I'm the only 
target audience for my efforts, then I don't mind the extra components.  I'm 
beginning to realize, as I get deeper into building my own stuff, that a VNA 
is quite a desireable piece of equipment.  Unfortunately, I'll have to make 
use of my spectrum analyzer and RLC meters instead.


Thanks for the responses.
Dave M 



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