Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss - GPS Interference...
Tom, Nice story. Thanks. Last I heard Rich had moved on from FEI-Zyfer. I don't know where he is now. Nice guy! Rob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Curlee Sent: 29 September 2012 04:53 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss - GPS Interference... I've also had some odd dealings with Rich Bailey. Some time in the mid 1990's I was a contractor at a USN cal lab. We had sent out a Datum time code generator for repair, and when it came back, one of the functions didn't work. I called Datum and after describing the problem, the tech support guy remembered that there had been a software upgrade, one that, for some unknown reason, had removed the function we needed. He promptly sent me a set of PROMs that had the previous software version and all was well. Skip ahead 6 or 8 years, and I was at a family function and got to talking to my cousins husband. He vaguely mentioned that he worked for a company that 'made very accurate clocks'. For some reason, I blurted out do you work for Datum? He was shocked that I knew who, and what, they were. We got to comparing notes, and, yep, same Rich Bailey that sent me the PROMs. I agree, he really is a nice guy. Last I heard, he was the sales manager for FEI-Zyfer. Tom WB6UZZ --- On Fri, 9/28/12, Burt I. Weiner b...@att.net wrote: From: Burt I. Weiner b...@att.net Subject: [time-nuts] Why the fuss - GPS Interference... To: time-nuts@febo.com Date: Friday, September 28, 2012, 9:20 AM Yes, Rob, It was Rich Bailey. A good guy! He worked for DATUM in Anaheim, CA and as I recall, he lived in Riverside. I noticed that he didn't wear a watch and when I jokingly commented about it, considering what he did for a living, he told me that he had been so aware of precise time for so many years that he got tired of knowing precisely what time it was. We had fun together that day. Burt, K6OQK From: Rob Kimberley robkimber...@btinternet.com To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss - GPS Interference... Hi Burt, This sounds familiar! It wasn't a guy called Rich Bailey was it? That's what he suggested I do, but I got onto Trimble and got one of their Bullet antennae with the 3 pole filter (Bullet III?). That worked for us. Rob Burt I. Weiner Associates Broadcast Technical Services Glendale, California U.S.A. b...@att.net www.biwa.cc K6OQK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
Tom, We had a similar problem at a BBC site when I was selling Datum in the UK. We managed to get round the problem with a better antenna. The third harmonic of the UHF wasn't slap bang on L1 but close enough with a basic GPS antenna to kill GPS. Rob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Miller Sent: 27 September 2012 18:44 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Under other issues, I have one where GPS could not be used. It was at a UHF TV station where the third harmonic fell right in the L1 band. A 220,000 watt UHF transmitter driving a gain antenna for 5 MW EIRP will always produce some third harmonic near the antenna. There was no access to GPS within 1 km of the site. They were using the WWVB signal as the time and frequency reference. Luckily, the conversion the DTV moved them to a new channel and now they can use the GPS. Tom - Original Message - From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:02 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi Right here in PA for one. You essentially can not buy a new house without there being various conditions written into the title. One universal one is no antennas. The only exception is for one 19 sat dish for TV, since that's a federal mandate. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of brent evers Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:57 AM To: j...@quikus.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Zoning, Legal? Where? Brent On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Because: LORAN-C is gone. Not all can use GPS because of siting, horizon, zoning, legal, and other issues. Not everyone can erect antenna towers. There is nothing else, except perhaps WWV or CHU on HF. -John == I cannot think of a time-nuts WWVB reference requirement that cannot be better satisfied with a GPSDO. Will NIST publish a public domain reference circuit? That would allay patent concerns. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
Unfortunately it's not that easy. Where I lived for a long time I kept trying to nail down various candidates on their positions on such things like ham radio antennas and it was maddeningly frustrating. I was actually asked to run for office at one point, maybe I should of. If nothing else the town would have been great for hams. Peter On 9/27/2012 10:42 PM, J. Forster wrote: Comming soon to a voting booth near you. YMMV, -John == And don't get me started on Smart Growth, the International Council for Local Environmental Initiatives and Agenda 21. All designed to move us into dense urban living conditions with fixed mass transit and odious rules as to what kind of light bulb we can use, what kind of toilet we can install, construction practices and materials, etc... A lot of people are decrying this as tinfoil hat bleating but if you actually read the proposals and observe places where they have been enacted (Portland, OR), the result is not what one would expect, quite the opposite because nobody wants to live in conditions like that. http://www.synthstuff.com/mt/archives/individual/2012/05/all_hail_our_master mind_overlords_the_iclei.html When I moved to where I am now, the specific request to my realtor was that there be zero CCRs. I am in unincorporated Whatcom County -- the City of Bellingham is a member of ICLEI and talking to local builders, getting a permit for anything besides the County's smart growth initiatives is like pulling teeth. Like John said, these get slipstreamed in with popular measures and not talked about in the press. Dave -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 18:17 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Absolutely! Often as not, a bunch of new rules and regulations are bundled with some popular measure. The popular measure gets the press, the rest of the package gets ignored. That happens at all levels of government. Purposely so. -John === HI …. and if you believe that these sort of restrictions are passed one at a time locally.. not so much. The easy way is for your local government to simply adopt an up to date package of rules. Rarely do any of those voting understand what in the package. Rarely does the vote get anything more than passing notice in the local community. Bob On Sep 27, 2012, at 8:39 PM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: If you are under the impression living in an older, built up area will be a defense against those with a Martha Stewart fetish, you are wrong. -John Well, that's what I love about the SF bay area- lots of old neighborhoods that didn't have all these silly restrictions in place when they were built. There are the usual CCRs, like I can raise chickens, but not cows, but it doesn't mandate what three colors you can paint your house, or the window coverings you can have or how long you can park your car in the driveway. Yes, things can change, but at least it's not in place in the beginning- and we can monitor implementation of any changes, at least in Palo Alto and Sunnyvale (where we have neighborhood groups that monitor such things, specifically because we like the status quo). I'm sure some or all of the newer developments do have silly restrictions, I just would never buy into one. -Dave - Original Message - From: J. Forster j...@quikus.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:47:15 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Earth to Dave: Sometimes laws and regulations change years after you buy a piece of property or do something perfectly legal. Nobody is safe whenever (Congress, Agency, State Legislature, Town Council, governing body, or whatever) is in session. YMMV, -John === These are amoung other reasons why I will never buy a house in a development or with a HOA. -Dave - Original Message - From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us To: j...@quikus.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 11:36:23 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi and indeed many of the likely hiding places are also on the list of things you are not supposed to do. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 2:20 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Vent pipes are not usually 20-30 feet tall. -John = Which for all intents and purposes means nothing that looks like an antenna to John Q. Public. What if your GPS antenna looked like a vent pipe? or a Bird House? It may be difficult
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
You missread what I meant. I meant that this Al Gore nonsense may soon be coming to a voting booth near you. And the forces of irrationality can easily mobilize like-minded dingbats to vote against technology. Often the Luddites win, on politics, not science or engineering. The general public is ill equiped to understand, never mind making informed judgements on, technological issues. Case in point, the WWVB issue. Many may clamor for 'more accurate clocks', but show up 10-20 minutes late for meetings. For most all civilian uses, a clock synchronized to the 60 Hz line is perfectly adequate. Yet the push is obviously on to destroy the usefulness of WWVB as a Standard of Time Interval. I see no indication that the XW stuff provides ANYTHING but TOD. YMMV, -John == Unfortunately it's not that easy. Where I lived for a long time I kept trying to nail down various candidates on their positions on such things like ham radio antennas and it was maddeningly frustrating. I was actually asked to run for office at one point, maybe I should of. If nothing else the town would have been great for hams. Peter On 9/27/2012 10:42 PM, J. Forster wrote: Comming soon to a voting booth near you. YMMV, -John == And don't get me started on Smart Growth, the International Council for Local Environmental Initiatives and Agenda 21. All designed to move us into dense urban living conditions with fixed mass transit and odious rules as to what kind of light bulb we can use, what kind of toilet we can install, construction practices and materials, etc... A lot of people are decrying this as tinfoil hat bleating but if you actually read the proposals and observe places where they have been enacted (Portland, OR), the result is not what one would expect, quite the opposite because nobody wants to live in conditions like that. http://www.synthstuff.com/mt/archives/individual/2012/05/all_hail_our_master mind_overlords_the_iclei.html When I moved to where I am now, the specific request to my realtor was that there be zero CCRs. I am in unincorporated Whatcom County -- the City of Bellingham is a member of ICLEI and talking to local builders, getting a permit for anything besides the County's smart growth initiatives is like pulling teeth. Like John said, these get slipstreamed in with popular measures and not talked about in the press. Dave -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 18:17 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Absolutely! Often as not, a bunch of new rules and regulations are bundled with some popular measure. The popular measure gets the press, the rest of the package gets ignored. That happens at all levels of government. Purposely so. -John === HI . and if you believe that these sort of restrictions are passed one at a time locally.. not so much. The easy way is for your local government to simply adopt an up to date package of rules. Rarely do any of those voting understand what in the package. Rarely does the vote get anything more than passing notice in the local community. Bob On Sep 27, 2012, at 8:39 PM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: If you are under the impression living in an older, built up area will be a defense against those with a Martha Stewart fetish, you are wrong. -John Well, that's what I love about the SF bay area- lots of old neighborhoods that didn't have all these silly restrictions in place when they were built. There are the usual CCRs, like I can raise chickens, but not cows, but it doesn't mandate what three colors you can paint your house, or the window coverings you can have or how long you can park your car in the driveway. Yes, things can change, but at least it's not in place in the beginning- and we can monitor implementation of any changes, at least in Palo Alto and Sunnyvale (where we have neighborhood groups that monitor such things, specifically because we like the status quo). I'm sure some or all of the newer developments do have silly restrictions, I just would never buy into one. -Dave - Original Message - From: J. Forster j...@quikus.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:47:15 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Earth to Dave: Sometimes laws and regulations change years after you buy a piece of property or do something perfectly legal. Nobody is safe whenever (Congress, Agency, State Legislature, Town Council, governing body, or whatever) is in session. YMMV, -John === These are amoung other reasons why I will never buy a house in a development or with a HOA. -Dave
[time-nuts] Why the fuss - GPS Interference...
I had a similar experience while working on the Seiko pager watch project some years ago. We were using DATUM GPS 9390 GPS receivers to time the system at each FM station transmitter site. One particular FM site on Edom Hill near Palm Springs, California (U.S.A.) had a problem from not only the associated FM transmitter but also from a nearby UHF TV running a bazillion or so Watts ERP. We finally installed a Symerticom WWVB receiver, but that was not as reliable as we needed. Not because of any interference, but because of propagation issues at 60 kHz at this mountain top site. I called DATUM to see about filters that could be put ahead of the antenna. The fellow I talked to lived within 50 miles of the site. We intellectualized for a while and finally agreed that I would pick him up in the morning and take him to the site. Well, when I picked him up he had a shopping bag that he put in the back seat. We had planned on getting something to eat before we went up the mountain so I asked, Bringing a snack? He said, No, it's a surprise. I also had one of the DATUM receiver running in my car off of 12 Volts with the antenna attached to my roof mount. As we approached the site the receiver in my car lost all satellites. He looked at the receiver in the Seiko system and then went back to the car and got the shopping bag. He then revealed his secret - a two pound coffee can with a few holes poked in the side near the bottom. We went up on the roof, disconnected the DATUM's antenna, and mounted it inside the coffee can. He told me that you have to be sure the antenna and the coffee can are electrically (RF wise) connected together. He then placed the coffee can on the roof orienting it so that it would have the best view of GPS satellites as possible given the site location and Coffee Can Aperture . By the time we got back in the building the receiver was tracking four GPS birds and a short time later was happily doing its thing. What he did was to use the coffee can as a waveguide beyond cutoff attenuator. Not really as an attenuator, but as a high pass filter. It did attenuate the FM band signal quite a bit and attenuated the UHF TV signal sufficiently so that it was no longer a problem for the system. A few says later I went back to the site and installed the Hi Pass Filter in a large upside down bottle. This ran reliably for several years until the Seiko project came to an end. I have since done this same trick at a few transmitter sites on Mt. Wilson, which overlooks Los Angeles and is home to most of the Southern California FM and (now) DTV transmitters. An aside: When Seiko ended the project they wholesaled a lot of the non-proprietary equipment out. I purchased four of the DATUM Time and Frequency receivers with Y2K updates. One I gave to a FMT-Nuts buddy, one went to a buddy who runs a Metrology Lab and the other two are running in my shoppe. See: http://www.k5cm.com/k6OQK%20FMT%20NEW.htm Burt, K6OQK Tom, We had a similar problem at a BBC site when I was selling Datum in the UK. We managed to get round the problem with a better antenna. The third harmonic of the UHF wasn't slap bang on L1 but close enough with a basic GPS antenna to kill GPS. Rob -Original Message- Behalf Of Tom Miller Sent: 27 September 2012 18:44 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Under other issues, I have one where GPS could not be used. It was at a UHF TV station where the third harmonic fell right in the L1 band. A 220,000 watt UHF transmitter driving a gain antenna for 5 MW EIRP will always produce some third harmonic near the antenna. There was no access to GPS within 1 km of the site. They were using the WWVB signal as the time and frequency reference. Luckily, the conversion the DTV moved them to a new channel and now they can use the GPS. Tom Burt I. Weiner Associates Broadcast Technical Services Glendale, California U.S.A. b...@att.net www.biwa.cc K6OQK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss - GPS Interference...
Hi Burt, This sounds familiar! It wasn't a guy called Rich Bailey was it? That's what he suggested I do, but I got onto Trimble and got one of their Bullet antennae with the 3 pole filter (Bullet III?). That worked for us. Rob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Burt I. Weiner Sent: 28 September 2012 16:34 To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Why the fuss - GPS Interference... I had a similar experience while working on the Seiko pager watch project some years ago. We were using DATUM GPS 9390 GPS receivers to time the system at each FM station transmitter site. One particular FM site on Edom Hill near Palm Springs, California (U.S.A.) had a problem from not only the associated FM transmitter but also from a nearby UHF TV running a bazillion or so Watts ERP. We finally installed a Symerticom WWVB receiver, but that was not as reliable as we needed. Not because of any interference, but because of propagation issues at 60 kHz at this mountain top site. I called DATUM to see about filters that could be put ahead of the antenna. The fellow I talked to lived within 50 miles of the site. We intellectualized for a while and finally agreed that I would pick him up in the morning and take him to the site. Well, when I picked him up he had a shopping bag that he put in the back seat. We had planned on getting something to eat before we went up the mountain so I asked, Bringing a snack? He said, No, it's a surprise. I also had one of the DATUM receiver running in my car off of 12 Volts with the antenna attached to my roof mount. As we approached the site the receiver in my car lost all satellites. He looked at the receiver in the Seiko system and then went back to the car and got the shopping bag. He then revealed his secret - a two pound coffee can with a few holes poked in the side near the bottom. We went up on the roof, disconnected the DATUM's antenna, and mounted it inside the coffee can. He told me that you have to be sure the antenna and the coffee can are electrically (RF wise) connected together. He then placed the coffee can on the roof orienting it so that it would have the best view of GPS satellites as possible given the site location and Coffee Can Aperture . By the time we got back in the building the receiver was tracking four GPS birds and a short time later was happily doing its thing. What he did was to use the coffee can as a waveguide beyond cutoff attenuator. Not really as an attenuator, but as a high pass filter. It did attenuate the FM band signal quite a bit and attenuated the UHF TV signal sufficiently so that it was no longer a problem for the system. A few says later I went back to the site and installed the Hi Pass Filter in a large upside down bottle. This ran reliably for several years until the Seiko project came to an end. I have since done this same trick at a few transmitter sites on Mt. Wilson, which overlooks Los Angeles and is home to most of the Southern California FM and (now) DTV transmitters. An aside: When Seiko ended the project they wholesaled a lot of the non-proprietary equipment out. I purchased four of the DATUM Time and Frequency receivers with Y2K updates. One I gave to a FMT-Nuts buddy, one went to a buddy who runs a Metrology Lab and the other two are running in my shoppe. See: http://www.k5cm.com/k6OQK%20FMT%20NEW.htm Burt, K6OQK Tom, We had a similar problem at a BBC site when I was selling Datum in the UK. We managed to get round the problem with a better antenna. The third harmonic of the UHF wasn't slap bang on L1 but close enough with a basic GPS antenna to kill GPS. Rob -Original Message- Behalf Of Tom Miller Sent: 27 September 2012 18:44 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Under other issues, I have one where GPS could not be used. It was at a UHF TV station where the third harmonic fell right in the L1 band. A 220,000 watt UHF transmitter driving a gain antenna for 5 MW EIRP will always produce some third harmonic near the antenna. There was no access to GPS within 1 km of the site. They were using the WWVB signal as the time and frequency reference. Luckily, the conversion the DTV moved them to a new channel and now they can use the GPS. Tom Burt I. Weiner Associates Broadcast Technical Services Glendale, California U.S.A. b...@att.net www.biwa.cc K6OQK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Why the fuss - GPS Interference...
Yes, Rob, It was Rich Bailey. A good guy! He worked for DATUM in Anaheim, CA and as I recall, he lived in Riverside. I noticed that he didn't wear a watch and when I jokingly commented about it, considering what he did for a living, he told me that he had been so aware of precise time for so many years that he got tired of knowing precisely what time it was. We had fun together that day. Burt, K6OQK From: Rob Kimberley robkimber...@btinternet.com To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss - GPS Interference... Hi Burt, This sounds familiar! It wasn't a guy called Rich Bailey was it? That's what he suggested I do, but I got onto Trimble and got one of their Bullet antennae with the 3 pole filter (Bullet III?). That worked for us. Rob Burt I. Weiner Associates Broadcast Technical Services Glendale, California U.S.A. b...@att.net www.biwa.cc K6OQK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss - GPS Interference...
I've also had some odd dealings with Rich Bailey. Some time in the mid 1990's I was a contractor at a USN cal lab. We had sent out a Datum time code generator for repair, and when it came back, one of the functions didn't work. I called Datum and after describing the problem, the tech support guy remembered that there had been a software upgrade, one that, for some unknown reason, had removed the function we needed. He promptly sent me a set of PROMs that had the previous software version and all was well. Skip ahead 6 or 8 years, and I was at a family function and got to talking to my cousins husband. He vaguely mentioned that he worked for a company that 'made very accurate clocks'. For some reason, I blurted out do you work for Datum? He was shocked that I knew who, and what, they were. We got to comparing notes, and, yep, same Rich Bailey that sent me the PROMs. I agree, he really is a nice guy. Last I heard, he was the sales manager for FEI-Zyfer. Tom WB6UZZ --- On Fri, 9/28/12, Burt I. Weiner b...@att.net wrote: From: Burt I. Weiner b...@att.net Subject: [time-nuts] Why the fuss - GPS Interference... To: time-nuts@febo.com Date: Friday, September 28, 2012, 9:20 AM Yes, Rob, It was Rich Bailey. A good guy! He worked for DATUM in Anaheim, CA and as I recall, he lived in Riverside. I noticed that he didn't wear a watch and when I jokingly commented about it, considering what he did for a living, he told me that he had been so aware of precise time for so many years that he got tired of knowing precisely what time it was. We had fun together that day. Burt, K6OQK From: Rob Kimberley robkimber...@btinternet.com To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss - GPS Interference... Hi Burt, This sounds familiar! It wasn't a guy called Rich Bailey was it? That's what he suggested I do, but I got onto Trimble and got one of their Bullet antennae with the 3 pole filter (Bullet III?). That worked for us. Rob Burt I. Weiner Associates Broadcast Technical Services Glendale, California U.S.A. b...@att.net www.biwa.cc K6OQK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Why the fuss?
I cannot think of a time-nuts WWVB reference requirement that cannot be better satisfied with a GPSDO. Will NIST publish a public domain reference circuit? That would allay patent concerns. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
Because: LORAN-C is gone. Not all can use GPS because of siting, horizon, zoning, legal, and other issues. Not everyone can erect antenna towers. There is nothing else, except perhaps WWV or CHU on HF. -John == I cannot think of a time-nuts WWVB reference requirement that cannot be better satisfied with a GPSDO. Will NIST publish a public domain reference circuit? That would allay patent concerns. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
Zoning, Legal? Where? Brent On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Because: LORAN-C is gone. Not all can use GPS because of siting, horizon, zoning, legal, and other issues. Not everyone can erect antenna towers. There is nothing else, except perhaps WWV or CHU on HF. -John == I cannot think of a time-nuts WWVB reference requirement that cannot be better satisfied with a GPSDO. Will NIST publish a public domain reference circuit? That would allay patent concerns. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Why the fuss?
In my business we term it analysis paralysis. Greg With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine... On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:29:46 -0700, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com wrote: I cannot think of a time-nuts WWVB reference requirement that cannot be better satisfied with a GPSDO. Will NIST publish a public domain reference circuit? That would allay patent concerns. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
Hi Right here in PA for one. You essentially can not buy a new house without there being various conditions written into the title. One universal one is no antennas. The only exception is for one 19 sat dish for TV, since that's a federal mandate. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of brent evers Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:57 AM To: j...@quikus.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Zoning, Legal? Where? Brent On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Because: LORAN-C is gone. Not all can use GPS because of siting, horizon, zoning, legal, and other issues. Not everyone can erect antenna towers. There is nothing else, except perhaps WWV or CHU on HF. -John == I cannot think of a time-nuts WWVB reference requirement that cannot be better satisfied with a GPSDO. Will NIST publish a public domain reference circuit? That would allay patent concerns. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
li...@rtty.us said: Right here in PA for one. You essentially can not buy a new house without there being various conditions written into the title. One universal one is no antennas. The only exception is for one 19 sat dish for TV, since that's a federal mandate. Interesting. Thanks. What do hams do in that environment? Is that all new houses or just ones built in developments? I live in Silicon Valley. Land is expensive. It's common to buy an old house to get the lot, throw away the house (scrape off) and build a new one. So new houses are readily available that are not part of developments. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
Which for all intents and purposes means nothing that looks like an antenna to John Q. Public. What if your GPS antenna looked like a vent pipe? or a Bird House? It may be difficult to hide a decent HF antenna, But, a 1.5 GHz antenna can be virtually invisible. Dale NV8U -Original Message- From: Bob Camp Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:02 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi Right here in PA for one. You essentially can not buy a new house without there being various conditions written into the title. One universal one is no antennas. The only exception is for one 19 sat dish for TV, since that's a federal mandate. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of brent evers Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:57 AM To: j...@quikus.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Zoning, Legal? Where? Brent On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Because: LORAN-C is gone. Not all can use GPS because of siting, horizon, zoning, legal, and other issues. Not everyone can erect antenna towers. There is nothing else, except perhaps WWV or CHU on HF. -John == I cannot think of a time-nuts WWVB reference requirement that cannot be better satisfied with a GPSDO. Will NIST publish a public domain reference circuit? That would allay patent concerns. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
Under other issues, I have one where GPS could not be used. It was at a UHF TV station where the third harmonic fell right in the L1 band. A 220,000 watt UHF transmitter driving a gain antenna for 5 MW EIRP will always produce some third harmonic near the antenna. There was no access to GPS within 1 km of the site. They were using the WWVB signal as the time and frequency reference. Luckily, the conversion the DTV moved them to a new channel and now they can use the GPS. Tom - Original Message - From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:02 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi Right here in PA for one. You essentially can not buy a new house without there being various conditions written into the title. One universal one is no antennas. The only exception is for one 19 sat dish for TV, since that's a federal mandate. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of brent evers Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:57 AM To: j...@quikus.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Zoning, Legal? Where? Brent On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Because: LORAN-C is gone. Not all can use GPS because of siting, horizon, zoning, legal, and other issues. Not everyone can erect antenna towers. There is nothing else, except perhaps WWV or CHU on HF. -John == I cannot think of a time-nuts WWVB reference requirement that cannot be better satisfied with a GPSDO. Will NIST publish a public domain reference circuit? That would allay patent concerns. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
Vent pipes are not usually 20-30 feet tall. -John = Which for all intents and purposes means nothing that looks like an antenna to John Q. Public. What if your GPS antenna looked like a vent pipe? or a Bird House? It may be difficult to hide a decent HF antenna, But, a 1.5 GHz antenna can be virtually invisible. Dale NV8U -Original Message- From: Bob Camp Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:02 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi Right here in PA for one. You essentially can not buy a new house without there being various conditions written into the title. One universal one is no antennas. The only exception is for one 19 sat dish for TV, since that's a federal mandate. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of brent evers Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:57 AM To: j...@quikus.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Zoning, Legal? Where? Brent On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Because: LORAN-C is gone. Not all can use GPS because of siting, horizon, zoning, legal, and other issues. Not everyone can erect antenna towers. There is nothing else, except perhaps WWV or CHU on HF. -John == I cannot think of a time-nuts WWVB reference requirement that cannot be better satisfied with a GPSDO. Will NIST publish a public domain reference circuit? That would allay patent concerns. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
Hi and indeed many of the likely hiding places are also on the list of things you are not supposed to do. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 2:20 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Vent pipes are not usually 20-30 feet tall. -John = Which for all intents and purposes means nothing that looks like an antenna to John Q. Public. What if your GPS antenna looked like a vent pipe? or a Bird House? It may be difficult to hide a decent HF antenna, But, a 1.5 GHz antenna can be virtually invisible. Dale NV8U -Original Message- From: Bob Camp Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:02 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi Right here in PA for one. You essentially can not buy a new house without there being various conditions written into the title. One universal one is no antennas. The only exception is for one 19 sat dish for TV, since that's a federal mandate. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of brent evers Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:57 AM To: j...@quikus.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Zoning, Legal? Where? Brent On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Because: LORAN-C is gone. Not all can use GPS because of siting, horizon, zoning, legal, and other issues. Not everyone can erect antenna towers. There is nothing else, except perhaps WWV or CHU on HF. -John == I cannot think of a time-nuts WWVB reference requirement that cannot be better satisfied with a GPSDO. Will NIST publish a public domain reference circuit? That would allay patent concerns. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
These are amoung other reasons why I will never buy a house in a development or with a HOA. -Dave - Original Message - From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us To: j...@quikus.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 11:36:23 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi and indeed many of the likely hiding places are also on the list of things you are not supposed to do. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 2:20 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Vent pipes are not usually 20-30 feet tall. -John = Which for all intents and purposes means nothing that looks like an antenna to John Q. Public. What if your GPS antenna looked like a vent pipe? or a Bird House? It may be difficult to hide a decent HF antenna, But, a 1.5 GHz antenna can be virtually invisible. Dale NV8U -Original Message- From: Bob Camp Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:02 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi Right here in PA for one. You essentially can not buy a new house without there being various conditions written into the title. One universal one is no antennas. The only exception is for one 19 sat dish for TV, since that's a federal mandate. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of brent evers Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:57 AM To: j...@quikus.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Zoning, Legal? Where? Brent On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Because: LORAN-C is gone. Not all can use GPS because of siting, horizon, zoning, legal, and other issues. Not everyone can erect antenna towers. There is nothing else, except perhaps WWV or CHU on HF. -John == I cannot think of a time-nuts WWVB reference requirement that cannot be better satisfied with a GPSDO. Will NIST publish a public domain reference circuit? That would allay patent concerns. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
Earth to Dave: Sometimes laws and regulations change years after you buy a piece of property or do something perfectly legal. Nobody is safe whenever (Congress, Agency, State Legislature, Town Council, governing body, or whatever) is in session. YMMV, -John === These are amoung other reasons why I will never buy a house in a development or with a HOA. -Dave - Original Message - From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us To: j...@quikus.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 11:36:23 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi and indeed many of the likely hiding places are also on the list of things you are not supposed to do. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 2:20 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Vent pipes are not usually 20-30 feet tall. -John = Which for all intents and purposes means nothing that looks like an antenna to John Q. Public. What if your GPS antenna looked like a vent pipe? or a Bird House? It may be difficult to hide a decent HF antenna, But, a 1.5 GHz antenna can be virtually invisible. Dale NV8U -Original Message- From: Bob Camp Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:02 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi Right here in PA for one. You essentially can not buy a new house without there being various conditions written into the title. One universal one is no antennas. The only exception is for one 19 sat dish for TV, since that's a federal mandate. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of brent evers Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:57 AM To: j...@quikus.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Zoning, Legal? Where? Brent On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Because: LORAN-C is gone. Not all can use GPS because of siting, horizon, zoning, legal, and other issues. Not everyone can erect antenna towers. There is nothing else, except perhaps WWV or CHU on HF. -John == I cannot think of a time-nuts WWVB reference requirement that cannot be better satisfied with a GPSDO. Will  NIST publish a public domain reference circuit? That would allay patent concerns. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R   c...@omen.com  www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications   Omen Technology Inc    The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231  503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
Hi I *wish* it was that simple. Around here the HOA isn't the issue. The crud is put in the title by the builder.. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of d.sei...@comcast.net Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 4:34 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? These are amoung other reasons why I will never buy a house in a development or with a HOA. -Dave - Original Message - From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us To: j...@quikus.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 11:36:23 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi and indeed many of the likely hiding places are also on the list of things you are not supposed to do. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 2:20 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Vent pipes are not usually 20-30 feet tall. -John = Which for all intents and purposes means nothing that looks like an antenna to John Q. Public. What if your GPS antenna looked like a vent pipe? or a Bird House? It may be difficult to hide a decent HF antenna, But, a 1.5 GHz antenna can be virtually invisible. Dale NV8U -Original Message- From: Bob Camp Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:02 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi Right here in PA for one. You essentially can not buy a new house without there being various conditions written into the title. One universal one is no antennas. The only exception is for one 19 sat dish for TV, since that's a federal mandate. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of brent evers Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:57 AM To: j...@quikus.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Zoning, Legal? Where? Brent On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Because: LORAN-C is gone. Not all can use GPS because of siting, horizon, zoning, legal, and other issues. Not everyone can erect antenna towers. There is nothing else, except perhaps WWV or CHU on HF. -John == I cannot think of a time-nuts WWVB reference requirement that cannot be better satisfied with a GPSDO. Will NIST publish a public domain reference circuit? That would allay patent concerns. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
Hi Hit send to soon. The title stuff comes from the developer not the builder. All the developers seem to subscribe to the same newsletter that comes up with a standard set of stuff to add to the title. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of d.sei...@comcast.net Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 4:34 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? These are amoung other reasons why I will never buy a house in a development or with a HOA. -Dave - Original Message - From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us To: j...@quikus.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 11:36:23 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi and indeed many of the likely hiding places are also on the list of things you are not supposed to do. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 2:20 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Vent pipes are not usually 20-30 feet tall. -John = Which for all intents and purposes means nothing that looks like an antenna to John Q. Public. What if your GPS antenna looked like a vent pipe? or a Bird House? It may be difficult to hide a decent HF antenna, But, a 1.5 GHz antenna can be virtually invisible. Dale NV8U -Original Message- From: Bob Camp Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:02 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi Right here in PA for one. You essentially can not buy a new house without there being various conditions written into the title. One universal one is no antennas. The only exception is for one 19 sat dish for TV, since that's a federal mandate. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of brent evers Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:57 AM To: j...@quikus.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Zoning, Legal? Where? Brent On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Because: LORAN-C is gone. Not all can use GPS because of siting, horizon, zoning, legal, and other issues. Not everyone can erect antenna towers. There is nothing else, except perhaps WWV or CHU on HF. -John == I cannot think of a time-nuts WWVB reference requirement that cannot be better satisfied with a GPSDO. Will NIST publish a public domain reference circuit? That would allay patent concerns. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
On 9/27/12 10:02 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Right here in PA for one. You essentially can not buy a new house without there being various conditions written into the title. One universal one is no antennas. The only exception is for one 19 sat dish for TV, since that's a federal mandate. Actually, 1 meter for microwave signals and any size for VHF/UHF signals. But it has to be designed for reception of TV and FM broadcast signals. (No lawyering around claiming that you've got a multi element, multiband Yagi that is designed for 7 MHz and 70 MHz simultaneously) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
HI At least as written, the restrictions allow the microwave dish but do prohibit the UHF/VHF antenna. Bob On Sep 27, 2012, at 6:42 PM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: On 9/27/12 10:02 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Right here in PA for one. You essentially can not buy a new house without there being various conditions written into the title. One universal one is no antennas. The only exception is for one 19 sat dish for TV, since that's a federal mandate. Actually, 1 meter for microwave signals and any size for VHF/UHF signals. But it has to be designed for reception of TV and FM broadcast signals. (No lawyering around claiming that you've got a multi element, multiband Yagi that is designed for 7 MHz and 70 MHz simultaneously) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: What do hams do in that environment? Hams either avoid HOAs and deed restricted property or they live with the restrictions by placing their antennas in attics and other inconspicuous locations. There have been attempts by hams to get the FCC to somehow invalidate or limit deed restrictions and HOA rules which prohibit antennas and towers which effectively prevent operation of amateur stations but so far the FCC has steered clear. While the federal government DOES claim some limited preemption of local zoning and municipal ordinances (PRB-1), I believe the FCC has chosen to stay away from meddling with deed restrictions and HOA rules preferring to consider them voluntary private contracts. According to hams in some parts of the country, however, they are far from voluntary as in some areas so much of the residential real estate is deed restricted or subject to HOAs that there is no practical alternative. With that said, I believe this year congress actually appropriated a few $100k to study the impact of deed restrictions and HOAs on amateur operations. -Jeff W7WWA ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
On 9/27/2012 2:06 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Hit send to soon. The title stuff comes from the developer not the builder. All the developers seem to subscribe to the same newsletter that comes up with a standard set of stuff to add to the title. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of d.sei...@comcast.net Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 4:34 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? These are amoung other reasons why I will never buy a house in a development or with a HOA. -Dave - Original Message - From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us To: j...@quikus.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 11:36:23 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi and indeed many of the likely hiding places are also on the list of things you are not supposed to do. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 2:20 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Vent pipes are not usually 20-30 feet tall. -John = Which for all intents and purposes means nothing that looks like an antenna to John Q. Public. What if your GPS antenna looked like a vent pipe? or a Bird House? It may be difficult to hide a decent HF antenna, But, a 1.5 GHz antenna can be virtually invisible. Dale NV8U -Original Message- From: Bob Camp Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:02 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi Right here in PA for one. You essentially can not buy a new house without there being various conditions written into the title. One universal one is no antennas. The only exception is for one 19 sat dish for TV, since that's a federal mandate. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of brent evers Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:57 AM To: j...@quikus.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Zoning, Legal? Where? Brent On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Because: LORAN-C is gone. Not all can use GPS because of siting, horizon, zoning, legal, and other issues. Not everyone can erect antenna towers. There is nothing else, except perhaps WWV or CHU on HF. -John == I cannot think of a time-nuts WWVB reference requirement that cannot be better satisfied with a GPSDO. Will NIST publish a public domain reference circuit? That would allay patent concerns. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. Most of the stuff is boiler plate
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 18:59:48 -0400, Jeff Stevens j...@mossycup.com wrote: On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: What do hams do in that environment? Hams either avoid HOAs and deed restricted property or they live with the restrictions by placing their antennas in attics and other inconspicuous locations. There have been attempts by hams to get the FCC to somehow invalidate or limit deed restrictions and HOA rules which prohibit antennas and towers which effectively prevent operation of amateur stations but so far the FCC has steered clear. While the federal government DOES claim some limited preemption of local zoning and municipal ordinances (PRB-1), I believe the FCC has chosen to stay away from meddling with deed restrictions and HOA rules preferring to consider them voluntary private contracts. According to hams in some parts of the country, however, they are far from voluntary as in some areas so much of the residential real estate is deed restricted or subject to HOAs that there is no practical alternative. With that said, I believe this year congress actually appropriated a few $100k to study the impact of deed restrictions and HOAs on amateur operations. -Jeff W7WWA I have heard of cases where the HAM settled for hidden or attic antenna installations and the resulting interference with their neighbor's electronics was used to bargain for a more reasonable rule. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
Hi The gotcha isn't the neighbors (who you can negotiate with) it's what ever entity enforces the title restrictions. With the recent dip in sales, that may be the original developer, still there a decade later …. Bob On Sep 27, 2012, at 7:30 PM, David davidwh...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 18:59:48 -0400, Jeff Stevens j...@mossycup.com wrote: On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: What do hams do in that environment? Hams either avoid HOAs and deed restricted property or they live with the restrictions by placing their antennas in attics and other inconspicuous locations. There have been attempts by hams to get the FCC to somehow invalidate or limit deed restrictions and HOA rules which prohibit antennas and towers which effectively prevent operation of amateur stations but so far the FCC has steered clear. While the federal government DOES claim some limited preemption of local zoning and municipal ordinances (PRB-1), I believe the FCC has chosen to stay away from meddling with deed restrictions and HOA rules preferring to consider them voluntary private contracts. According to hams in some parts of the country, however, they are far from voluntary as in some areas so much of the residential real estate is deed restricted or subject to HOAs that there is no practical alternative. With that said, I believe this year congress actually appropriated a few $100k to study the impact of deed restrictions and HOAs on amateur operations. -Jeff W7WWA I have heard of cases where the HAM settled for hidden or attic antenna installations and the resulting interference with their neighbor's electronics was used to bargain for a more reasonable rule. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
Presumably such a strategy would be applied against a HOA that has power over the restrictions. I have not been following this subject for several years but apparently the FCC has released the report authorized by congress in 2012 and again found no need to take action: http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2012/db0820/DA-12-1342A1.pdf . . . Therefore, at this time, we do not see a compelling reason for the Commission to revisit its previous determinations that preemption should not be expanded to CCRs. On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 19:36:26 -0400, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The gotcha isn't the neighbors (who you can negotiate with) it's what ever entity enforces the title restrictions. With the recent dip in sales, that may be the original developer, still there a decade later . Bob On Sep 27, 2012, at 7:30 PM, David davidwh...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 18:59:48 -0400, Jeff Stevens j...@mossycup.com wrote: On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: What do hams do in that environment? Hams either avoid HOAs and deed restricted property or they live with the restrictions by placing their antennas in attics and other inconspicuous locations. There have been attempts by hams to get the FCC to somehow invalidate or limit deed restrictions and HOA rules which prohibit antennas and towers which effectively prevent operation of amateur stations but so far the FCC has steered clear. While the federal government DOES claim some limited preemption of local zoning and municipal ordinances (PRB-1), I believe the FCC has chosen to stay away from meddling with deed restrictions and HOA rules preferring to consider them voluntary private contracts. According to hams in some parts of the country, however, they are far from voluntary as in some areas so much of the residential real estate is deed restricted or subject to HOAs that there is no practical alternative. With that said, I believe this year congress actually appropriated a few $100k to study the impact of deed restrictions and HOAs on amateur operations. -Jeff W7WWA I have heard of cases where the HAM settled for hidden or attic antenna installations and the resulting interference with their neighbor's electronics was used to bargain for a more reasonable rule. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
Hi ….. and as long as CR's are not something the FCC is going to play with -- you are stuck. Bob On Sep 27, 2012, at 8:09 PM, David davidwh...@gmail.com wrote: Presumably such a strategy would be applied against a HOA that has power over the restrictions. I have not been following this subject for several years but apparently the FCC has released the report authorized by congress in 2012 and again found no need to take action: http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2012/db0820/DA-12-1342A1.pdf . . . Therefore, at this time, we do not see a compelling reason for the Commission to revisit its previous determinations that preemption should not be expanded to CCRs. On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 19:36:26 -0400, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The gotcha isn't the neighbors (who you can negotiate with) it's what ever entity enforces the title restrictions. With the recent dip in sales, that may be the original developer, still there a decade later …. Bob On Sep 27, 2012, at 7:30 PM, David davidwh...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 18:59:48 -0400, Jeff Stevens j...@mossycup.com wrote: On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: What do hams do in that environment? Hams either avoid HOAs and deed restricted property or they live with the restrictions by placing their antennas in attics and other inconspicuous locations. There have been attempts by hams to get the FCC to somehow invalidate or limit deed restrictions and HOA rules which prohibit antennas and towers which effectively prevent operation of amateur stations but so far the FCC has steered clear. While the federal government DOES claim some limited preemption of local zoning and municipal ordinances (PRB-1), I believe the FCC has chosen to stay away from meddling with deed restrictions and HOA rules preferring to consider them voluntary private contracts. According to hams in some parts of the country, however, they are far from voluntary as in some areas so much of the residential real estate is deed restricted or subject to HOAs that there is no practical alternative. With that said, I believe this year congress actually appropriated a few $100k to study the impact of deed restrictions and HOAs on amateur operations. -Jeff W7WWA I have heard of cases where the HAM settled for hidden or attic antenna installations and the resulting interference with their neighbor's electronics was used to bargain for a more reasonable rule. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
Well, that's what I love about the SF bay area- lots of old neighborhoods that didn't have all these silly restrictions in place when they were built. There are the usual CCRs, like I can raise chickens, but not cows, but it doesn't mandate what three colors you can paint your house, or the window coverings you can have or how long you can park your car in the driveway. Yes, things can change, but at least it's not in place in the beginning- and we can monitor implementation of any changes, at least in Palo Alto and Sunnyvale (where we have neighborhood groups that monitor such things, specifically because we like the status quo). I'm sure some or all of the newer developments do have silly restrictions, I just would never buy into one. -Dave - Original Message - From: J. Forster j...@quikus.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:47:15 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Earth to Dave: Sometimes laws and regulations change years after you buy a piece of property or do something perfectly legal. Nobody is safe whenever (Congress, Agency, State Legislature, Town Council, governing body, or whatever) is in session. YMMV, -John === These are amoung other reasons why I will never buy a house in a development or with a HOA. -Dave - Original Message - From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us To: j...@quikus.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 11:36:23 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi and indeed many of the likely hiding places are also on the list of things you are not supposed to do. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 2:20 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Vent pipes are not usually 20-30 feet tall. -John = Which for all intents and purposes means nothing that looks like an antenna to John Q. Public. What if your GPS antenna looked like a vent pipe? or a Bird House? It may be difficult to hide a decent HF antenna, But, a 1.5 GHz antenna can be virtually invisible. Dale NV8U -Original Message- From: Bob Camp Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:02 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi Right here in PA for one. You essentially can not buy a new house without there being various conditions written into the title. One universal one is no antennas. The only exception is for one 19 sat dish for TV, since that's a federal mandate. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of brent evers Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:57 AM To: j...@quikus.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Zoning, Legal? Where? Brent On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Because: LORAN-C is gone. Not all can use GPS because of siting, horizon, zoning, legal, and other issues. Not everyone can erect antenna towers. There is nothing else, except perhaps WWV or CHU on HF. -John == I cannot think of a time-nuts WWVB reference requirement that cannot be better satisfied with a GPSDO. Will  NIST publish a public domain reference circuit? That would allay patent concerns. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R   c...@omen.com  www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications   Omen Technology Inc    The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231  503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
Title restrictions, once put into place, can be extremely tricky to remove. On 9/27/2012 7:36 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi The gotcha isn't the neighbors (who you can negotiate with) it's what ever entity enforces the title restrictions. With the recent dip in sales, that may be the original developer, still there a decade later …. Bob On Sep 27, 2012, at 7:30 PM, David davidwh...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 18:59:48 -0400, Jeff Stevens j...@mossycup.com wrote: On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: What do hams do in that environment? Hams either avoid HOAs and deed restricted property or they live with the restrictions by placing their antennas in attics and other inconspicuous locations. There have been attempts by hams to get the FCC to somehow invalidate or limit deed restrictions and HOA rules which prohibit antennas and towers which effectively prevent operation of amateur stations but so far the FCC has steered clear. While the federal government DOES claim some limited preemption of local zoning and municipal ordinances (PRB-1), I believe the FCC has chosen to stay away from meddling with deed restrictions and HOA rules preferring to consider them voluntary private contracts. According to hams in some parts of the country, however, they are far from voluntary as in some areas so much of the residential real estate is deed restricted or subject to HOAs that there is no practical alternative. With that said, I believe this year congress actually appropriated a few $100k to study the impact of deed restrictions and HOAs on amateur operations. -Jeff W7WWA I have heard of cases where the HAM settled for hidden or attic antenna installations and the resulting interference with their neighbor's electronics was used to bargain for a more reasonable rule. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5295 - Release Date: 09/27/12 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
If you are under the impression living in an older, built up area will be a defense against those with a Martha Stewart fetish, you are wrong. -John Well, that's what I love about the SF bay area- lots of old neighborhoods that didn't have all these silly restrictions in place when they were built. There are the usual CCRs, like I can raise chickens, but not cows, but it doesn't mandate what three colors you can paint your house, or the window coverings you can have or how long you can park your car in the driveway. Yes, things can change, but at least it's not in place in the beginning- and we can monitor implementation of any changes, at least in Palo Alto and Sunnyvale (where we have neighborhood groups that monitor such things, specifically because we like the status quo). I'm sure some or all of the newer developments do have silly restrictions, I just would never buy into one. -Dave - Original Message - From: J. Forster j...@quikus.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:47:15 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Earth to Dave: Sometimes laws and regulations change years after you buy a piece of property or do something perfectly legal. Nobody is safe whenever (Congress, Agency, State Legislature, Town Council, governing body, or whatever) is in session. YMMV, -John === These are amoung other reasons why I will never buy a house in a development or with a HOA. -Dave - Original Message - From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us To: j...@quikus.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 11:36:23 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi and indeed many of the likely hiding places are also on the list of things you are not supposed to do. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 2:20 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Vent pipes are not usually 20-30 feet tall. -John = Which for all intents and purposes means nothing that looks like an antenna to John Q. Public. What if your GPS antenna looked like a vent pipe? or a Bird House? It may be difficult to hide a decent HF antenna, But, a 1.5 GHz antenna can be virtually invisible. Dale NV8U -Original Message- From: Bob Camp Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:02 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi Right here in PA for one. You essentially can not buy a new house without there being various conditions written into the title. One universal one is no antennas. The only exception is for one 19 sat dish for TV, since that's a federal mandate. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of brent evers Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:57 AM To: j...@quikus.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Zoning, Legal? Where? Brent On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Because: LORAN-C is gone. Not all can use GPS because of siting, horizon, zoning, legal, and other issues. Not everyone can erect antenna towers. There is nothing else, except perhaps WWV or CHU on HF. -John == I cannot think of a time-nuts WWVB reference requirement that cannot be better satisfied with a GPSDO. Will àNIST publish a public domain reference circuit? That would allay patent concerns. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R ààc...@omen.com àwww.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications ààOmen Technology Inc àààThe High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 à503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
HI …. and if you believe that these sort of restrictions are passed one at a time locally.. not so much. The easy way is for your local government to simply adopt an up to date package of rules. Rarely do any of those voting understand what in the package. Rarely does the vote get anything more than passing notice in the local community. Bob On Sep 27, 2012, at 8:39 PM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: If you are under the impression living in an older, built up area will be a defense against those with a Martha Stewart fetish, you are wrong. -John Well, that's what I love about the SF bay area- lots of old neighborhoods that didn't have all these silly restrictions in place when they were built. There are the usual CCRs, like I can raise chickens, but not cows, but it doesn't mandate what three colors you can paint your house, or the window coverings you can have or how long you can park your car in the driveway. Yes, things can change, but at least it's not in place in the beginning- and we can monitor implementation of any changes, at least in Palo Alto and Sunnyvale (where we have neighborhood groups that monitor such things, specifically because we like the status quo). I'm sure some or all of the newer developments do have silly restrictions, I just would never buy into one. -Dave - Original Message - From: J. Forster j...@quikus.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:47:15 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Earth to Dave: Sometimes laws and regulations change years after you buy a piece of property or do something perfectly legal. Nobody is safe whenever (Congress, Agency, State Legislature, Town Council, governing body, or whatever) is in session. YMMV, -John === These are amoung other reasons why I will never buy a house in a development or with a HOA. -Dave - Original Message - From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us To: j...@quikus.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 11:36:23 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi and indeed many of the likely hiding places are also on the list of things you are not supposed to do. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 2:20 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Vent pipes are not usually 20-30 feet tall. -John = Which for all intents and purposes means nothing that looks like an antenna to John Q. Public. What if your GPS antenna looked like a vent pipe? or a Bird House? It may be difficult to hide a decent HF antenna, But, a 1.5 GHz antenna can be virtually invisible. Dale NV8U -Original Message- From: Bob Camp Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:02 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi Right here in PA for one. You essentially can not buy a new house without there being various conditions written into the title. One universal one is no antennas. The only exception is for one 19 sat dish for TV, since that's a federal mandate. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of brent evers Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:57 AM To: j...@quikus.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Zoning, Legal? Where? Brent On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Because: LORAN-C is gone. Not all can use GPS because of siting, horizon, zoning, legal, and other issues. Not everyone can erect antenna towers. There is nothing else, except perhaps WWV or CHU on HF. -John == I cannot think of a time-nuts WWVB reference requirement that cannot be better satisfied with a GPSDO. Will  NIST publish a public domain reference circuit? That would allay patent concerns. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R   c...@omen.com  www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications   Omen Technology Inc    The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231  503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
Absolutely! Often as not, a bunch of new rules and regulations are bundled with some popular measure. The popular measure gets the press, the rest of the package gets ignored. That happens at all levels of government. Purposely so. -John === HI . and if you believe that these sort of restrictions are passed one at a time locally.. not so much. The easy way is for your local government to simply adopt an up to date package of rules. Rarely do any of those voting understand what in the package. Rarely does the vote get anything more than passing notice in the local community. Bob On Sep 27, 2012, at 8:39 PM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: If you are under the impression living in an older, built up area will be a defense against those with a Martha Stewart fetish, you are wrong. -John Well, that's what I love about the SF bay area- lots of old neighborhoods that didn't have all these silly restrictions in place when they were built. There are the usual CCRs, like I can raise chickens, but not cows, but it doesn't mandate what three colors you can paint your house, or the window coverings you can have or how long you can park your car in the driveway. Yes, things can change, but at least it's not in place in the beginning- and we can monitor implementation of any changes, at least in Palo Alto and Sunnyvale (where we have neighborhood groups that monitor such things, specifically because we like the status quo). I'm sure some or all of the newer developments do have silly restrictions, I just would never buy into one. -Dave - Original Message - From: J. Forster j...@quikus.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:47:15 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Earth to Dave: Sometimes laws and regulations change years after you buy a piece of property or do something perfectly legal. Nobody is safe whenever (Congress, Agency, State Legislature, Town Council, governing body, or whatever) is in session. YMMV, -John === These are amoung other reasons why I will never buy a house in a development or with a HOA. -Dave - Original Message - From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us To: j...@quikus.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 11:36:23 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi and indeed many of the likely hiding places are also on the list of things you are not supposed to do. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 2:20 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Vent pipes are not usually 20-30 feet tall. -John = Which for all intents and purposes means nothing that looks like an antenna to John Q. Public. What if your GPS antenna looked like a vent pipe? or a Bird House? It may be difficult to hide a decent HF antenna, But, a 1.5 GHz antenna can be virtually invisible. Dale NV8U -Original Message- From: Bob Camp Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:02 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi Right here in PA for one. You essentially can not buy a new house without there being various conditions written into the title. One universal one is no antennas. The only exception is for one 19 sat dish for TV, since that's a federal mandate. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of brent evers Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:57 AM To: j...@quikus.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Zoning, Legal? Where? Brent On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Because: LORAN-C is gone. Not all can use GPS because of siting, horizon, zoning, legal, and other issues. Not everyone can erect antenna towers. There is nothing else, except perhaps WWV or CHU on HF. -John == I cannot think of a time-nuts WWVB reference requirement that cannot be better satisfied with a GPSDO. Will àNIST publish a public domain reference circuit? That would allay patent concerns. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R ààc...@omen.com àwww.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications ààOmen Technology Inc àààThe High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 à503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
And don't get me started on Smart Growth, the International Council for Local Environmental Initiatives and Agenda 21. All designed to move us into dense urban living conditions with fixed mass transit and odious rules as to what kind of light bulb we can use, what kind of toilet we can install, construction practices and materials, etc... A lot of people are decrying this as tinfoil hat bleating but if you actually read the proposals and observe places where they have been enacted (Portland, OR), the result is not what one would expect, quite the opposite because nobody wants to live in conditions like that. http://www.synthstuff.com/mt/archives/individual/2012/05/all_hail_our_master mind_overlords_the_iclei.html When I moved to where I am now, the specific request to my realtor was that there be zero CCRs. I am in unincorporated Whatcom County -- the City of Bellingham is a member of ICLEI and talking to local builders, getting a permit for anything besides the County's smart growth initiatives is like pulling teeth. Like John said, these get slipstreamed in with popular measures and not talked about in the press. Dave -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 18:17 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Absolutely! Often as not, a bunch of new rules and regulations are bundled with some popular measure. The popular measure gets the press, the rest of the package gets ignored. That happens at all levels of government. Purposely so. -John === HI . and if you believe that these sort of restrictions are passed one at a time locally.. not so much. The easy way is for your local government to simply adopt an up to date package of rules. Rarely do any of those voting understand what in the package. Rarely does the vote get anything more than passing notice in the local community. Bob On Sep 27, 2012, at 8:39 PM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: If you are under the impression living in an older, built up area will be a defense against those with a Martha Stewart fetish, you are wrong. -John Well, that's what I love about the SF bay area- lots of old neighborhoods that didn't have all these silly restrictions in place when they were built. There are the usual CCRs, like I can raise chickens, but not cows, but it doesn't mandate what three colors you can paint your house, or the window coverings you can have or how long you can park your car in the driveway. Yes, things can change, but at least it's not in place in the beginning- and we can monitor implementation of any changes, at least in Palo Alto and Sunnyvale (where we have neighborhood groups that monitor such things, specifically because we like the status quo). I'm sure some or all of the newer developments do have silly restrictions, I just would never buy into one. -Dave - Original Message - From: J. Forster j...@quikus.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:47:15 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Earth to Dave: Sometimes laws and regulations change years after you buy a piece of property or do something perfectly legal. Nobody is safe whenever (Congress, Agency, State Legislature, Town Council, governing body, or whatever) is in session. YMMV, -John === These are amoung other reasons why I will never buy a house in a development or with a HOA. -Dave - Original Message - From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us To: j...@quikus.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 11:36:23 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi and indeed many of the likely hiding places are also on the list of things you are not supposed to do. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 2:20 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Vent pipes are not usually 20-30 feet tall. -John = Which for all intents and purposes means nothing that looks like an antenna to John Q. Public. What if your GPS antenna looked like a vent pipe? or a Bird House? It may be difficult to hide a decent HF antenna, But, a 1.5 GHz antenna can be virtually invisible. Dale NV8U -Original Message- From: Bob Camp Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:02 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency
Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss?
Comming soon to a voting booth near you. YMMV, -John == And don't get me started on Smart Growth, the International Council for Local Environmental Initiatives and Agenda 21. All designed to move us into dense urban living conditions with fixed mass transit and odious rules as to what kind of light bulb we can use, what kind of toilet we can install, construction practices and materials, etc... A lot of people are decrying this as tinfoil hat bleating but if you actually read the proposals and observe places where they have been enacted (Portland, OR), the result is not what one would expect, quite the opposite because nobody wants to live in conditions like that. http://www.synthstuff.com/mt/archives/individual/2012/05/all_hail_our_master mind_overlords_the_iclei.html When I moved to where I am now, the specific request to my realtor was that there be zero CCRs. I am in unincorporated Whatcom County -- the City of Bellingham is a member of ICLEI and talking to local builders, getting a permit for anything besides the County's smart growth initiatives is like pulling teeth. Like John said, these get slipstreamed in with popular measures and not talked about in the press. Dave -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 18:17 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Absolutely! Often as not, a bunch of new rules and regulations are bundled with some popular measure. The popular measure gets the press, the rest of the package gets ignored. That happens at all levels of government. Purposely so. -John === HI . and if you believe that these sort of restrictions are passed one at a time locally.. not so much. The easy way is for your local government to simply adopt an up to date package of rules. Rarely do any of those voting understand what in the package. Rarely does the vote get anything more than passing notice in the local community. Bob On Sep 27, 2012, at 8:39 PM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: If you are under the impression living in an older, built up area will be a defense against those with a Martha Stewart fetish, you are wrong. -John Well, that's what I love about the SF bay area- lots of old neighborhoods that didn't have all these silly restrictions in place when they were built. There are the usual CCRs, like I can raise chickens, but not cows, but it doesn't mandate what three colors you can paint your house, or the window coverings you can have or how long you can park your car in the driveway. Yes, things can change, but at least it's not in place in the beginning- and we can monitor implementation of any changes, at least in Palo Alto and Sunnyvale (where we have neighborhood groups that monitor such things, specifically because we like the status quo). I'm sure some or all of the newer developments do have silly restrictions, I just would never buy into one. -Dave - Original Message - From: J. Forster j...@quikus.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:47:15 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Earth to Dave: Sometimes laws and regulations change years after you buy a piece of property or do something perfectly legal. Nobody is safe whenever (Congress, Agency, State Legislature, Town Council, governing body, or whatever) is in session. YMMV, -John === These are amoung other reasons why I will never buy a house in a development or with a HOA. -Dave - Original Message - From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us To: j...@quikus.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 11:36:23 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Hi and indeed many of the likely hiding places are also on the list of things you are not supposed to do. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 2:20 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why the fuss? Vent pipes are not usually 20-30 feet tall. -John = Which for all intents and purposes means nothing that looks like an antenna to John Q. Public. What if your GPS antenna looked like a vent pipe? or a Bird House? It may be difficult to hide a decent HF antenna, But, a 1.5 GHz antenna can be virtually invisible. Dale NV8U -Original Message- From: Bob Camp Sent: Thursday
