Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
A bit late in the thread but I don't see the HP E1740A -pete On 1/14/13, Jonatan Walck jwa...@netnod.se wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 2013-01-11 02:48, Bob Camp wrote: HI One thing missing from the list was the HP 53181. It's useless as a timing device and thus didn't get listed. If you are after frequency only, they occasionally show up for quite a bit less than the 53131's. As a frequency counter, they have the same performance as a '131. All of the 53131, 132, 181, and 230's are small enough to lug around. Bob I'll find uses for a full TIC rather than just a fequency counter, but I absorb all this knowledge happily either way and it's good to have that here as a reference. I initially found the 53131A and everything above it to steep for my first home lab TIC but you are right about the size, they are quite small. (Having access to 53131's through work.) As great luck would have it though, I found a second hand Pendulum CNT-90 and I got a too good deal to hold back my trigger finger. Picked it up yesterday! Made no measurements past does it start up and can it detect any frequency? yet but will put it to good use soon. I wouldn't have know what to look for and find this TIC without this list. A big thanks to all time-nuts once again! // jwalck -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJQ88oBAAoJEFwg9i9GDX+n+mMP/iWYkLQd4o3zVglTLESM8Gqu yo9SGThQQ1Uc4svaNLzHP6WC6uO5Dh+KG6oUDhDeeqL4CNDoCCs2F4lbMsavxgW/ lcrDjSCqATgB7J8edlLP/lw2q+Uo4VY6Y1qFmAah+6ooqU5D+mdi5j7Solm4SF+T O+VKgghklgPuw1mWWaESNgKvv869nNkMTKw/hwQF4DDiCu/9N/gv4bxt5P778oWv r8nu4Yck4AWWhGkDn3JcpCXqIGrA2T40CR5ek1TD9i6LGLBnCU7FmIrofd/fZEF3 AJVYfB+tIL6CO5jj+Xvk4G4HeOXMhknKZBVmF/kFO27q4IKFAbYhIOAWdWK1MwQT tO7N4banehXrkFuDJwJdZuze+OweME69/uBv2Rcj6jC4IWDk0kmcJKrcbGBzwuN9 S01jyea9Ndi1CVXfdYkY9C9Pp1FZM9FzIleSB7+IGYfgS6vU+lXNnq8OVndYiT5J 6zNjpOjd1NUWCU7WCqxLQmMEGNw1CG7ITY8G8gPAAsCsg2AkYKHix8WYidAvlc7o NBkp7kFhD4l2jD9N8Uu50+Y2/meliiJK2wFgwbTdLOKNfdVjQYwsJ7QcQ8vJtHju oxsESC/FVIvU0CyJ81tl7xQPV1kG9XQFuMKEISIyqCsA84+kApFP++sguM8RRLJ7 ctm8Is0scpOVQ7kLkkmm =lCIv -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
Hi I'm not quite sure if the 1740 is a counter or not. I have a few of them sitting here, but they are a bear to do anything useful with. They make the 5371 look like a portable instrument. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lancashire Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 9:35 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation A bit late in the thread but I don't see the HP E1740A -pete On 1/14/13, Jonatan Walck jwa...@netnod.se wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 2013-01-11 02:48, Bob Camp wrote: HI One thing missing from the list was the HP 53181. It's useless as a timing device and thus didn't get listed. If you are after frequency only, they occasionally show up for quite a bit less than the 53131's. As a frequency counter, they have the same performance as a '131. All of the 53131, 132, 181, and 230's are small enough to lug around. Bob I'll find uses for a full TIC rather than just a fequency counter, but I absorb all this knowledge happily either way and it's good to have that here as a reference. I initially found the 53131A and everything above it to steep for my first home lab TIC but you are right about the size, they are quite small. (Having access to 53131's through work.) As great luck would have it though, I found a second hand Pendulum CNT-90 and I got a too good deal to hold back my trigger finger. Picked it up yesterday! Made no measurements past does it start up and can it detect any frequency? yet but will put it to good use soon. I wouldn't have know what to look for and find this TIC without this list. A big thanks to all time-nuts once again! // jwalck -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJQ88oBAAoJEFwg9i9GDX+n+mMP/iWYkLQd4o3zVglTLESM8Gqu yo9SGThQQ1Uc4svaNLzHP6WC6uO5Dh+KG6oUDhDeeqL4CNDoCCs2F4lbMsavxgW/ lcrDjSCqATgB7J8edlLP/lw2q+Uo4VY6Y1qFmAah+6ooqU5D+mdi5j7Solm4SF+T O+VKgghklgPuw1mWWaESNgKvv869nNkMTKw/hwQF4DDiCu/9N/gv4bxt5P778oWv r8nu4Yck4AWWhGkDn3JcpCXqIGrA2T40CR5ek1TD9i6LGLBnCU7FmIrofd/fZEF3 AJVYfB+tIL6CO5jj+Xvk4G4HeOXMhknKZBVmF/kFO27q4IKFAbYhIOAWdWK1MwQT tO7N4banehXrkFuDJwJdZuze+OweME69/uBv2Rcj6jC4IWDk0kmcJKrcbGBzwuN9 S01jyea9Ndi1CVXfdYkY9C9Pp1FZM9FzIleSB7+IGYfgS6vU+lXNnq8OVndYiT5J 6zNjpOjd1NUWCU7WCqxLQmMEGNw1CG7ITY8G8gPAAsCsg2AkYKHix8WYidAvlc7o NBkp7kFhD4l2jD9N8Uu50+Y2/meliiJK2wFgwbTdLOKNfdVjQYwsJ7QcQ8vJtHju oxsESC/FVIvU0CyJ81tl7xQPV1kG9XQFuMKEISIyqCsA84+kApFP++sguM8RRLJ7 ctm8Is0scpOVQ7kLkkmm =lCIv -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 09:32:36 -0800, Arthur Dent wrote: The 6680 in the attached photo is a little different than most because it has a Datum/Symmetricom X72 rubidium oscillator I installed for the internal time base. -Arthur http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/ rjb1998/6680battery_zpsb93793b7.jpg Thanx Arthur. I have an X72 here and some FEI-5680A's Could you share some info , maybe off-list TIA CFO ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 2013-01-11 02:48, Bob Camp wrote: HI One thing missing from the list was the HP 53181. It's useless as a timing device and thus didn't get listed. If you are after frequency only, they occasionally show up for quite a bit less than the 53131's. As a frequency counter, they have the same performance as a '131. All of the 53131, 132, 181, and 230's are small enough to lug around. Bob I'll find uses for a full TIC rather than just a fequency counter, but I absorb all this knowledge happily either way and it's good to have that here as a reference. I initially found the 53131A and everything above it to steep for my first home lab TIC but you are right about the size, they are quite small. (Having access to 53131's through work.) As great luck would have it though, I found a second hand Pendulum CNT-90 and I got a too good deal to hold back my trigger finger. Picked it up yesterday! Made no measurements past does it start up and can it detect any frequency? yet but will put it to good use soon. I wouldn't have know what to look for and find this TIC without this list. A big thanks to all time-nuts once again! // jwalck -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJQ88oBAAoJEFwg9i9GDX+n+mMP/iWYkLQd4o3zVglTLESM8Gqu yo9SGThQQ1Uc4svaNLzHP6WC6uO5Dh+KG6oUDhDeeqL4CNDoCCs2F4lbMsavxgW/ lcrDjSCqATgB7J8edlLP/lw2q+Uo4VY6Y1qFmAah+6ooqU5D+mdi5j7Solm4SF+T O+VKgghklgPuw1mWWaESNgKvv869nNkMTKw/hwQF4DDiCu/9N/gv4bxt5P778oWv r8nu4Yck4AWWhGkDn3JcpCXqIGrA2T40CR5ek1TD9i6LGLBnCU7FmIrofd/fZEF3 AJVYfB+tIL6CO5jj+Xvk4G4HeOXMhknKZBVmF/kFO27q4IKFAbYhIOAWdWK1MwQT tO7N4banehXrkFuDJwJdZuze+OweME69/uBv2Rcj6jC4IWDk0kmcJKrcbGBzwuN9 S01jyea9Ndi1CVXfdYkY9C9Pp1FZM9FzIleSB7+IGYfgS6vU+lXNnq8OVndYiT5J 6zNjpOjd1NUWCU7WCqxLQmMEGNw1CG7ITY8G8gPAAsCsg2AkYKHix8WYidAvlc7o NBkp7kFhD4l2jD9N8Uu50+Y2/meliiJK2wFgwbTdLOKNfdVjQYwsJ7QcQ8vJtHju oxsESC/FVIvU0CyJ81tl7xQPV1kG9XQFuMKEISIyqCsA84+kApFP++sguM8RRLJ7 ctm8Is0scpOVQ7kLkkmm =lCIv -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
OK, but I wasn't able to find a single shot resolution specification in its datasheet. Looking at the formulas to determine the accuracy, it looks like the minimum resolution is 250pS... anyway, by reading the user and service manual I found out that the PM6685 has an EEPROM memory and no battery is needed. On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 10:15 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 01/11/2013 09:09 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote: The PM6685 is a frequency counter, not a TIC, so it shouldn't suffer from the battery problem. It's single shot resolution would still be from the interpolator, even if you measure on the same signal. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
On 01/12/2013 01:37 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote: OK, but I wasn't able to find a single shot resolution specification in its datasheet. Looking at the formulas to determine the accuracy, it looks like the minimum resolution is 250pS... anyway, by reading the user and service manual I found out that the PM6685 has an EEPROM memory and no battery is needed. At 250 ps you use interpolators. The typical coarse counter would be 100 MHz and that means 10 ns in raw resolution, but you would then use an interpolator to get higher resolution. By getting a start and stop measure, roughly tau time inbetween each other you get f = (t_stop - t_start)/tau assuming t_start and t_stop trigger from the same source. For frequency measures you can overcome the single-shot resolution by using multiple start and stop locations and process the estimates. BTW, some counters use quite different approaches for triggering and routing their TI measures and their frequency measures, to such degree that frequency trimming requires separate calibration. SR620 is one such example. Typically would the calibration error cause a static time error between start and stop, and scaling with tau is a good way to track it. Measuring it's own time-base is a good way to measure this calibration error and trim it out. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
On 1/12/2013 7:40 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote: At 250 ps you use interpolators. The typical coarse counter would be 100 MHz and that means 10 ns in raw resolution, but you would then use an interpolator to get higher resolution. By getting a start and stop measure, roughly tau time inbetween each other you get f = (t_stop - t_start)/tau assuming t_start and t_stop trigger from the same source. This may not be of interest, and if so, I'll drop it. But I was thinking that if they go to some kind of fallback interpolation the time interval measurements at a more-or-less fixed frequency might still be pretty good. (I think along these lines because maybe someday a battery-bad unit might show up which is not so good at umpty-GHz measurements but still OK for TIC) If it had a systematic error at 10MHz it seems like maybe that would just fall out in the wash. (?) Chris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
The manual states that loosing the settings on a 6680 is no big problem , but on the 6681 you loose the interpolator calibtation. And it sounds like that's not a good thing. I didn't know you had to watch out for Battery on a PM6680/81. CFO - Tnut-Beginner Denmark Would loss of interpolation calibration have much impact on its use as a TIC? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
On 01/11/2013 03:51 PM, Chris Howard wrote: The manual states that loosing the settings on a 6680 is no big problem , but on the 6681 you loose the interpolator calibtation. And it sounds like that's not a good thing. I didn't know you had to watch out for Battery on a PM6680/81. CFO - Tnut-Beginner Denmark Would loss of interpolation calibration have much impact on its use as a TIC? Yes, as that is what gives you the precision. I don't recall how bad it will get, but I ended up having the PM6681 calibrated. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
The PM6685 is a frequency counter, not a TIC, so it shouldn't suffer from the battery problem. On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 7:33 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 01/11/2013 03:51 PM, Chris Howard wrote: The manual states that loosing the settings on a 6680 is no big problem , but on the 6681 you loose the interpolator calibtation. And it sounds like that's not a good thing. I didn't know you had to watch out for Battery on a PM6680/81. CFO - Tnut-Beginner Denmark Would loss of interpolation calibration have much impact on its use as a TIC? Yes, as that is what gives you the precision. I don't recall how bad it will get, but I ended up having the PM6681 calibrated. Cheers, Magnus __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
On 01/11/2013 09:09 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote: The PM6685 is a frequency counter, not a TIC, so it shouldn't suffer from the battery problem. It's single shot resolution would still be from the interpolator, even if you measure on the same signal. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:48:00 +0100, Azelio Boriani wrote: and don't forget the PM6681 (50pS) I have a PM6680 (250 or 300pS) i think , but it was within my budget. I just read the Service manual , and noticed that both the PM6680 the 6681 has a battery inside that holds the settings. The manual states that loosing the settings on a 6680 is no big problem , but on the 6681 you loose the interpolator calibtation. And it sounds like that's not a good thing. I didn't know you had to watch out for Battery on a PM6680/81. CFO - Tnut-Beginner Denmark ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
Yes, the battery on the PM6681 is a real problem, unless you have the unobtainable calibration program. The program uses the GPIB to perform the calibration: I have tried to figure out the GPIB commands involved in the calibration process by looking at the firmware dump... the commands are clear text. I wasn't able to find anything. On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 6:37 PM, cfo xne...@luna.dyndns.dk wrote: On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:48:00 +0100, Azelio Boriani wrote: and don't forget the PM6681 (50pS) I have a PM6680 (250 or 300pS) i think , but it was within my budget. I just read the Service manual , and noticed that both the PM6680 the 6681 has a battery inside that holds the settings. The manual states that loosing the settings on a 6680 is no big problem , but on the 6681 you loose the interpolator calibtation. And it sounds like that's not a good thing. I didn't know you had to watch out for Battery on a PM6680/81. CFO - Tnut-Beginner Denmark ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
On 2013-01-10 23:14, Azelio Boriani wrote: Yes, the battery on the PM6681 is a real problem, unless you have the unobtainable calibration program. The program uses the GPIB to perform the calibration: I have tried to figure out the GPIB commands involved in the calibration process by looking at the firmware dump... the commands are clear text. I wasn't able to find anything. I did read about the battery before, but did not know how severe the problem was. Thanks for the heads up! Does the PM6685 end up in the same category as 80 or 81 in this respect? I want to send a thank you to everyone participating on this thread, I'm sure I'm not alone looking for a (or another) time-nut friendly TIC. Finding one that's, good enough electrially (all parameters up to desired specs), user friendly, not humongous and affordable was harder than I initially thought it would be. So far I've seen the Racal-Dana 1991/1992, horde of HP/Agilents and Philips/Fluke/Pendulum CNT-/PM66* mentioned here. Keeping a searching eye out for one that isn't 19 and doesn't weight too much given the frequency of which I will lug it around. Or failing that cheap enough to double up.:) To me this so far means I'm primairly looking for Racal-Dana's as a cheap option or possibly PM66's if I can find them (much rarer here, but I like that they're made in Sweden!:). Are there any HP's I should keep a look out for, if I'm aiming for at least 1 ns resolution? Bob's list (a special thanks to you for the comprehensive list) left me with only finding either very expensive or very big ones in Europe. Any recommendations for where to look for timing equipment (TICs specifically but I guess it will be the same answer in general) in Europe besides the one all so familiar auction site? (Not that I have anything against ebay, just checking if there are any secondary sources.) // jwalck ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
HI One thing missing from the list was the HP 53181. It's useless as a timing device and thus didn't get listed. If you are after frequency only, they occasionally show up for quite a bit less than the 53131's. As a frequency counter, they have the same performance as a '131. All of the 53131, 132, 181, and 230's are small enough to lug around. Bob On Jan 10, 2013, at 7:03 PM, Jonatan Walck jwa...@netnod.se wrote: On 2013-01-10 23:14, Azelio Boriani wrote: Yes, the battery on the PM6681 is a real problem, unless you have the unobtainable calibration program. The program uses the GPIB to perform the calibration: I have tried to figure out the GPIB commands involved in the calibration process by looking at the firmware dump... the commands are clear text. I wasn't able to find anything. I did read about the battery before, but did not know how severe the problem was. Thanks for the heads up! Does the PM6685 end up in the same category as 80 or 81 in this respect? I want to send a thank you to everyone participating on this thread, I'm sure I'm not alone looking for a (or another) time-nut friendly TIC. Finding one that's, good enough electrially (all parameters up to desired specs), user friendly, not humongous and affordable was harder than I initially thought it would be. So far I've seen the Racal-Dana 1991/1992, horde of HP/Agilents and Philips/Fluke/Pendulum CNT-/PM66* mentioned here. Keeping a searching eye out for one that isn't 19 and doesn't weight too much given the frequency of which I will lug it around. Or failing that cheap enough to double up.:) To me this so far means I'm primairly looking for Racal-Dana's as a cheap option or possibly PM66's if I can find them (much rarer here, but I like that they're made in Sweden!:). Are there any HP's I should keep a look out for, if I'm aiming for at least 1 ns resolution? Bob's list (a special thanks to you for the comprehensive list) left me with only finding either very expensive or very big ones in Europe. Any recommendations for where to look for timing equipment (TICs specifically but I guess it will be the same answer in general) in Europe besides the one all so familiar auction site? (Not that I have anything against ebay, just checking if there are any secondary sources.) // jwalck ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
Hi There are a number of counters that are a lot better than what you have. There's also a limited amount of money in the universe. I'd suggest setting a rational budget and time frame. This is all used gear. You *might* get a perfect one that never ever breaks. More likely you will need to get a couple and swap things around. I'd plan on buying 3 or 4 with what ever the budget is. If you get lucky, you come in under budget. Less fancy: 5334 - couple of ns resolution, nice and small, B is *very* different than the A so get one or the other 5335 - faster bigger heavier, one ns resolution. both should be around $100 before shipping. Very cool: 53131 500 ps resolution 53132 150 ps resolution both have displays that can wear out. They are no longer supported by HP so you *might* find somebody dumping them. Hard to find for less than $800. Big and heavy: 5371, 5372 same resolution as the 53132 They don't show up much. I've seen them for $200. You probably should expect to pay $400. Expect shipping to be non-trivial. High end: SR620 5370 53230a All are in the 20 ps range. You do see 5370's for $200. More commonly you see them for quite a bit more. The 620's show up anywhere between $800 and $3000. The 53230a is brand new with a warranty from Agilent for about $3700. That's just one set of parts. There are others. There are more issues than just price to consider. The 5371 is a *big* piece of gear. The 53xxx boxes are all small enough to carry around. Lots of choices. Bob On Jan 8, 2013, at 9:50 PM, dlewis6767 dlewis6...@austin.rr.com wrote: Hi Magnus, good day. Thanks for the thoughts, ...that was pretty much where I was headed. I think I will hold out a while for a 5370, watch eBay, see if a reasonably priced unit pops up. If anyone has one for sale for a nice price, please let me know. -Don -- From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 7:42 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation Hi Don, On 01/09/2013 02:32 AM, dlewis6767 wrote: I am looking to upgrade my older HP 5245L counter/ timer to one with greater resolution. In my home lab, I have been collecting GPS timing modules (receivers) and just want to start measuring their 1PPS jitter, etc. over one period. The 5245L will only measure to 100ns with a 1 second pulse (.1us period at 1 period). I was looking at the HP5370/ 71/ 72 series counter/ timers. What is the best resolution they can provide for a one second pulse (over one period)? Do you have any recommendation as to which one of the three models is the better unit? (Their display technology, age and cost not withstanding.) All three models seem greatly overstated in price on eBay, seems, too. Not sure why, ...just supply and demand; I presume. Thank you for your advice; I appreciate your thoughts. Of the given set, the HP5370 will have much better single shot resolution compared to the HP5371/5372. The later is better at recording high rate events. I have both HP5370 and HP5372 as they fill different purposes. I also have counters of better performance than these. Trouble is, with PPS signals you experience jitter such that a 1 ns resolution of a HP5335 will suffice for most usages. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
Thank you Bob, Ed, Magnus , ..and all. Excellent reviews, ...detailed and clear. I REALLY do appreciate it. HP has turned out so much equipment over the years, it is often good to see a comparison. This was excellent. I'll wait for a good deal, and don the road bid alongside many of you , I presume. :-) I may opt for one of the better units, ...as this disease progresses. -Don -- From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 6:43 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation Hi There are a number of counters that are a lot better than what you have. There's also a limited amount of money in the universe. I'd suggest setting a rational budget and time frame. This is all used gear. You *might* get a perfect one that never ever breaks. More likely you will need to get a couple and swap things around. I'd plan on buying 3 or 4 with what ever the budget is. If you get lucky, you come in under budget. Less fancy: 5334 - couple of ns resolution, nice and small, B is *very* different than the A so get one or the other 5335 - faster bigger heavier, one ns resolution. both should be around $100 before shipping. Very cool: 53131 500 ps resolution 53132 150 ps resolution both have displays that can wear out. They are no longer supported by HP so you *might* find somebody dumping them. Hard to find for less than $800. Big and heavy: 5371, 5372 same resolution as the 53132 They don't show up much. I've seen them for $200. You probably should expect to pay $400. Expect shipping to be non-trivial. High end: SR620 5370 53230a All are in the 20 ps range. You do see 5370's for $200. More commonly you see them for quite a bit more. The 620's show up anywhere between $800 and $3000. The 53230a is brand new with a warranty from Agilent for about $3700. That's just one set of parts. There are others. There are more issues than just price to consider. The 5371 is a *big* piece of gear. The 53xxx boxes are all small enough to carry around. Lots of choices. Bob On Jan 8, 2013, at 9:50 PM, dlewis6767 dlewis6...@austin.rr.com wrote: Hi Magnus, good day. Thanks for the thoughts, ...that was pretty much where I was headed. I think I will hold out a while for a 5370, watch eBay, see if a reasonably priced unit pops up. If anyone has one for sale for a nice price, please let me know. -Don -- From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 7:42 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation Hi Don, On 01/09/2013 02:32 AM, dlewis6767 wrote: I am looking to upgrade my older HP 5245L counter/ timer to one with greater resolution. In my home lab, I have been collecting GPS timing modules (receivers) and just want to start measuring their 1PPS jitter, etc. over one period. The 5245L will only measure to 100ns with a 1 second pulse (.1us period at 1 period). I was looking at the HP5370/ 71/ 72 series counter/ timers. What is the best resolution they can provide for a one second pulse (over one period)? Do you have any recommendation as to which one of the three models is the better unit? (Their display technology, age and cost not withstanding.) All three models seem greatly overstated in price on eBay, seems, too. Not sure why, ...just supply and demand; I presume. Thank you for your advice; I appreciate your thoughts. Of the given set, the HP5370 will have much better single shot resolution compared to the HP5371/5372. The later is better at recording high rate events. I have both HP5370 and HP5372 as they fill different purposes. I also have counters of better performance than these. Trouble is, with PPS signals you experience jitter such that a 1 ns resolution of a HP5335 will suffice for most usages. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
Hi Keep in mind that the good prices are generally for gear that is in the don't know if it works at all category. The prices go up quickly for stuff that has had even basic checks run on it. It's rare to find any of this stuff with a believable iron clad guarantee / certification that it runs 100% to original specs. I've seen a lot of gear with cal stickers on it that doesn't do this or that correctly... Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of dlewis6767 Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 8:07 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation Thank you Bob, Ed, Magnus , ..and all. Excellent reviews, ...detailed and clear. I REALLY do appreciate it. HP has turned out so much equipment over the years, it is often good to see a comparison. This was excellent. I'll wait for a good deal, and don the road bid alongside many of you , I presume. :-) I may opt for one of the better units, ...as this disease progresses. -Don -- From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 6:43 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation Hi There are a number of counters that are a lot better than what you have. There's also a limited amount of money in the universe. I'd suggest setting a rational budget and time frame. This is all used gear. You *might* get a perfect one that never ever breaks. More likely you will need to get a couple and swap things around. I'd plan on buying 3 or 4 with what ever the budget is. If you get lucky, you come in under budget. Less fancy: 5334 - couple of ns resolution, nice and small, B is *very* different than the A so get one or the other 5335 - faster bigger heavier, one ns resolution. both should be around $100 before shipping. Very cool: 53131 500 ps resolution 53132 150 ps resolution both have displays that can wear out. They are no longer supported by HP so you *might* find somebody dumping them. Hard to find for less than $800. Big and heavy: 5371, 5372 same resolution as the 53132 They don't show up much. I've seen them for $200. You probably should expect to pay $400. Expect shipping to be non-trivial. High end: SR620 5370 53230a All are in the 20 ps range. You do see 5370's for $200. More commonly you see them for quite a bit more. The 620's show up anywhere between $800 and $3000. The 53230a is brand new with a warranty from Agilent for about $3700. That's just one set of parts. There are others. There are more issues than just price to consider. The 5371 is a *big* piece of gear. The 53xxx boxes are all small enough to carry around. Lots of choices. Bob On Jan 8, 2013, at 9:50 PM, dlewis6767 dlewis6...@austin.rr.com wrote: Hi Magnus, good day. Thanks for the thoughts, ...that was pretty much where I was headed. I think I will hold out a while for a 5370, watch eBay, see if a reasonably priced unit pops up. If anyone has one for sale for a nice price, please let me know. -Don -- From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 7:42 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation Hi Don, On 01/09/2013 02:32 AM, dlewis6767 wrote: I am looking to upgrade my older HP 5245L counter/ timer to one with greater resolution. In my home lab, I have been collecting GPS timing modules (receivers) and just want to start measuring their 1PPS jitter, etc. over one period. The 5245L will only measure to 100ns with a 1 second pulse (.1us period at 1 period). I was looking at the HP5370/ 71/ 72 series counter/ timers. What is the best resolution they can provide for a one second pulse (over one period)? Do you have any recommendation as to which one of the three models is the better unit? (Their display technology, age and cost not withstanding.) All three models seem greatly overstated in price on eBay, seems, too. Not sure why, ...just supply and demand; I presume. Thank you for your advice; I appreciate your thoughts. Of the given set, the HP5370 will have much better single shot resolution compared to the HP5371/5372. The later is better at recording high rate events. I have both HP5370 and HP5372 as they fill different purposes. I also have counters of better performance than these. Trouble is, with PPS signals you experience jitter such that a 1 ns resolution of a HP5335 will suffice for most usages. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
On 01/09/2013 05:39 AM, Ed Palmer wrote: In the past there has been much discussion on this list regarding the relative strengths and weaknesses of the 5370 (20ps resolution) and the 5371/5372 (150ps resolution) units. There are other units that have even better resolution, but they tend to be pricey and/or more specialized. The 5371/5372 has a 200 ps resolution. They where designed to allow extension to 100 ps resolution. The FLASH-interpolators have 200 ps steps, sufficiently good trigger such that you get 150 ps resolution performance on the white-noise limit. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
and don't forget the PM6681 (50pS) On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 01/09/2013 05:39 AM, Ed Palmer wrote: In the past there has been much discussion on this list regarding the relative strengths and weaknesses of the 5370 (20ps resolution) and the 5371/5372 (150ps resolution) units. There are other units that have even better resolution, but they tend to be pricey and/or more specialized. The 5371/5372 has a 200 ps resolution. They where designed to allow extension to 100 ps resolution. The FLASH-interpolators have 200 ps steps, sufficiently good trigger such that you get 150 ps resolution performance on the white-noise limit. Cheers, Magnus __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
On 1/9/2013 12:48 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote: and don't forget the PM6681 (50pS) The PM6681 was sold by Fluke/Philips. The same counter is also occasionally seen as the Pendulum CNT-81. Additional good features: small, light, and quiet. On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Magnus Danielsonmag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 01/09/2013 05:39 AM, Ed Palmer wrote: In the past there has been much discussion on this list regarding the relative strengths and weaknesses of the 5370 (20ps resolution) and the 5371/5372 (150ps resolution) units. There are other units that have even better resolution, but they tend to be pricey and/or more specialized. The 5371/5372 has a 200 ps resolution. They where designed to allow extension to 100 ps resolution. The FLASH-interpolators have 200 ps steps, sufficiently good trigger such that you get 150 ps resolution performance on the white-noise limit. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
On 01/10/2013 12:02 AM, Rex wrote: On 1/9/2013 12:48 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote: and don't forget the PM6681 (50pS) The PM6681 was sold by Fluke/Philips. The same counter is also occasionally seen as the Pendulum CNT-81. Additional good features: small, light, and quiet. A bit more history then. Philips had a sub-sidary called Philips Industrier Järfälla, located just outside Stockholm. They made amongst other things OCXOs and counters, but a numerous of other measuring gadgets. As Philips merged with Fluke for instruments, the Philips Industrier measurments gear also re-occured in their Fluke variant for the US market. They kept their PM model numbers. As Philips was retracting from the market, they sold of the TF reminder of Philips Industrier and that was named Pendulum, which kept the connection with Fluke. This meant that the new counters coming out also came out in their Fluke variants. However, pendulum decided to strike out the PM66 prefix (for counters) for their Pendulum branded gear and had different prefixes such as CNT-80/81/85/90/90XL/91, GPS-12/88/89 and WM-10/11. Pendulum was sold off to SpectraCom, and it was run as a separate business for some time, but eventually the old company was dismantled and Pendulum remains as a brand within SpectraCom. The product range exists, except for the CNT-8x series which died off then the last of the custom counter chips ran out, besides what was kept for service of course. The CNT-9x series uses a FPGA as counter core. Today only a few of the original staff remains with SpectraCom. The CNT-90 has also appeared in Tektronix format. I had some exchange with them as they where local to me. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
Hi Don, On 01/09/2013 02:32 AM, dlewis6767 wrote: I am looking to upgrade my older HP 5245L counter/ timer to one with greater resolution. In my home lab, I have been collecting GPS timing modules (receivers) and just want to start measuring their 1PPS jitter, etc. over one period. The 5245L will only measure to 100ns with a 1 second pulse (.1us period at 1 period). I was looking at the HP5370/ 71/ 72 series counter/ timers. What is the best resolution they can provide for a one second pulse (over one period)? Do you have any recommendation as to which one of the three models is the better unit? (Their display technology, age and cost not withstanding.) All three models seem greatly overstated in price on eBay, seems, too. Not sure why, ...just supply and demand; I presume. Thank you for your advice; I appreciate your thoughts. Of the given set, the HP5370 will have much better single shot resolution compared to the HP5371/5372. The later is better at recording high rate events. I have both HP5370 and HP5372 as they fill different purposes. I also have counters of better performance than these. Trouble is, with PPS signals you experience jitter such that a 1 ns resolution of a HP5335 will suffice for most usages. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
Hi Magnus, good day. Thanks for the thoughts, ...that was pretty much where I was headed. I think I will hold out a while for a 5370, watch eBay, see if a reasonably priced unit pops up. If anyone has one for sale for a nice price, please let me know. -Don -- From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 7:42 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation Hi Don, On 01/09/2013 02:32 AM, dlewis6767 wrote: I am looking to upgrade my older HP 5245L counter/ timer to one with greater resolution. In my home lab, I have been collecting GPS timing modules (receivers) and just want to start measuring their 1PPS jitter, etc. over one period. The 5245L will only measure to 100ns with a 1 second pulse (.1us period at 1 period). I was looking at the HP5370/ 71/ 72 series counter/ timers. What is the best resolution they can provide for a one second pulse (over one period)? Do you have any recommendation as to which one of the three models is the better unit? (Their display technology, age and cost not withstanding.) All three models seem greatly overstated in price on eBay, seems, too. Not sure why, ...just supply and demand; I presume. Thank you for your advice; I appreciate your thoughts. Of the given set, the HP5370 will have much better single shot resolution compared to the HP5371/5372. The later is better at recording high rate events. I have both HP5370 and HP5372 as they fill different purposes. I also have counters of better performance than these. Trouble is, with PPS signals you experience jitter such that a 1 ns resolution of a HP5335 will suffice for most usages. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
In the past there has been much discussion on this list regarding the relative strengths and weaknesses of the 5370 (20ps resolution) and the 5371/5372 (150ps resolution) units. There are other units that have even better resolution, but they tend to be pricey and/or more specialized. Moving down another step in resolution, the Racal-Dana 1991 and 1992 (1 ns resolution) counters also have their fans (like me), but they do have problems with their front panel buttons (actually the switches under the buttons). Yes, the prices on ebay are becoming increasingly ridiculous. Occasionally a seller will have an attack of sanity and post a reasonable price. You may also get lucky with a unit that is defective, or advertised as such, but has either no fault or a repairable one. More info on all of these topics is available by using Google with the site:www.febo.com advanced search term. Ed On 1/8/2013 7:32 PM, dlewis6767 wrote: I am looking to upgrade my older HP 5245L counter/ timer to one with greater resolution. In my home lab, I have been collecting GPS timing modules (receivers) and just want to start measuring their 1PPS jitter, etc. over one period. The 5245L will only measure to 100ns with a 1 second pulse (.1us period at 1 period). I was looking at the HP5370/ 71/ 72 series counter/ timers. What is the best resolution they can provide for a one second pulse (over one period)? Do you have any recommendation as to which one of the three models is the better unit? (Their display technology, age and cost not withstanding.) All three models seem greatly overstated in price on eBay, seems, too. Not sure why, ...just supply and demand; I presume. Thank you for your advice; I appreciate your thoughts. Don Lewis Austin, TX (Hyde Park) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
Wasn't this the exact application the PicTic was developed for So one would not have to tie up an expensive counter for something like comparing two standards. It would in fact be perfect. You'd need to build several of them one for every two GPSes In my home lab, I have been collecting GPS timing modules (receivers) and just want to start measuring their 1PPS jitter, etc. over one period. The 5245L will only measure to 100ns with a 1 second pulse (.1us period at 1 period). I was looking at the HP5370/ 71/ 72 series counter/ timers. What is the best resolution they can provide for a one second pulse (over one period)? -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
Re the price for HP5370's. I've purchased several HP5370B's over the last few years.One of the better ones cost me a little over $200.00 plus shipping. Some sellers still seem to have more reasonable expectations than others but good deals are getting harder to come by. If you have not already done so you might also want to review the list archives vis a vis the calibrating a HP5370 series counter. Good luck and best regards. Mark Spencer Message: 9 Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 22:39:20 -0600 From: Ed Palmer ed_pal...@sasktel.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation Message-ID: 50ecf478.6020...@sasktel.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed In the past there has been much discussion on this list regarding the relative strengths and weaknesses of the 5370 (20ps resolution) and the 5371/5372 (150ps resolution) units. There are other units that have even better resolution, but they tend to be pricey and/or more specialized. Moving down another step in resolution, the Racal-Dana 1991 and 1992 (1 ns resolution) counters also have their fans (like me), but they do have problems with their front panel buttons (actually the switches under the buttons). Yes, the prices on ebay are becoming increasingly ridiculous. Occasionally a seller will have an attack of sanity and post a reasonable price. You may also get lucky with a unit that is defective, or advertised as such, but has either no fault or a repairable one. More info on all of these topics is available by using Google with the site:www.febo.com advanced search term. Ed On 1/8/2013 7:32 PM, dlewis6767 wrote: I am looking to upgrade my older HP 5245L counter/ timer to one with greater resolution. In my home lab, I have been collecting GPS timing modules (receivers) and just want to start measuring their 1PPS jitter, etc. over one period. The 5245L will only measure to 100ns with a 1 second pulse (.1us period at 1 period). I was looking at the HP5370/ 71/ 72 series counter/ timers. What is the best resolution they can provide for a one second pulse (over one period)? Do you have any recommendation as to which one of the three models is the better unit? (Their display technology, age and cost not withstanding.) All three models seem greatly overstated in price on eBay, seems, too. Not sure why, ...just supply and demand; I presume. Thank you for your advice; I appreciate your thoughts. Don Lewis Austin, TX (Hyde Park) -- ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts End of time-nuts Digest, Vol 102, Issue 33 ** ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
