Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[SAIDJACK]

Charles,
 
maybe I did read your email wrong, I apologize for that. To me it came  
across as negative toward the seller and the listings, and it seems this is  
not how it was meant, my appologies.
 
Bye,
Said
 
 
In a message dated 9/8/2012 23:05:30 Pacific Daylight Time,  
charles_steinm...@lavabit.com writes:

I  reiterate that I said (and certainly, I meant) nothing negative 
about the  seller, and made no negative assumptions and no negative 
comments.   In fact, I do have experience with him and have no 
complaints.  My  point was not that one might not get what was 
described; rather, it was  that I cannot tell from the 58503A listings 
exactly what is being  described, or how what is described in one 
listing differs from what is  described in other listings that vary 
considerably in price.  Nothing  more.

The  End,

Charles


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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Bob,

On 09/09/2012 02:49 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Ok, you have the fast port working. I assume with some sort of GPIB adapter. Is 
this correct?


No. Flip a DIP-switch and it's there. There is a few connectors on the 
motherboard and that hooks up to the connector panel. I've checked and 
I've got the driving chips on my various boards.



If so is this just a matter of taking the code you already have and folding it 
into one of the existing programs? That would make the 5371's and 5372's a 
*lot* more useful.


It is indeed the hint I am giving. If you use the fast-port with a 
suitable back-end, you can do a lot of stuff that you would otherwise 
not expect from that machine.


You can do three-clock comparisons in continuous mode if you like.


There obviously are going to be some hardware dependent data rate issues at 
high speeds. For the kind of stuff Bert and his buddy are trying to do ( 1 
pps), that's unlikely to be a big deal.


You can control that very easily with the trigger rate. The time-tagging 
rate is actually rather high on these beasts, but memory storage is what 
reduces it's speed and depth.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Ok, you have the fast port working. I assume with some sort of GPIB adapter. Is 
this correct?

If so is this just a matter of taking the code you already have and folding it 
into one of the existing programs? That would make the 5371's and 5372's a 
*lot* more useful. 

There obviously are going to be some hardware dependent data rate issues at 
high speeds. For the kind of stuff Bert and his buddy are trying to do ( 1 
pps), that's unlikely to be a big deal.  

Bob

On Sep 9, 2012, at 7:55 AM, Magnus Danielson  wrote:

> Hi Bob,
> 
> On 09/09/2012 03:55 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> It would be nice if somebody came up with a fast port adaptation to one of 
>> the standard data collection programs.
> 
> It would not be all that hard to do an adaptation board which creates a live 
> USB stream for instance. Either using an FPGA or by using a handful of "TTL" 
> and a Cypress USB chip.
> 
> What you get is the unprocessed hardware time-stamps, but if you add a driver 
> that does the processing (and the HP5372A Programming manual is really 
> getting you into the gory details of bits and post-processing!) then having 
> Timelab do it should not be too hard.
> 
> It's on my list of neat things to do, but I have so many other things to do. 
> If someone tries to do it, let me know.
> 
> BTW, I happen to enable the Fast Port on my HP5372A. :)
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Bob,

On 09/09/2012 03:55 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

It would be nice if somebody came up with a fast port adaptation to one of the 
standard data collection programs.


It would not be all that hard to do an adaptation board which creates a 
live USB stream for instance. Either using an FPGA or by using a handful 
of "TTL" and a Cypress USB chip.


What you get is the unprocessed hardware time-stamps, but if you add a 
driver that does the processing (and the HP5372A Programming manual is 
really getting you into the gory details of bits and post-processing!) 
then having Timelab do it should not be too hard.


It's on my list of neat things to do, but I have so many other things to 
do. If someone tries to do it, let me know.


BTW, I happen to enable the Fast Port on my HP5372A. :)

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Charles P. Steinmetz]

Said wrote:

you make and post negative assumptions about a seller without any 
first hand experience

 * * *
It is unfair to post that kind of negative opinion without you 
having any first hand experience with them.


This is already way out of hand -- so with this, I'm done:

I think you are over-reading my comments, intent on finding offense 
where none was given.  Please recognize that in the process, you are 
making and posting unfounded negative assumptions about me, the 
assumptions you assume that I have made, and my postings -- precisely 
what you accuse me of.


I reiterate that I said (and certainly, I meant) nothing negative 
about the seller, and made no negative assumptions and no negative 
comments.  In fact, I do have experience with him and have no 
complaints.  My point was not that one might not get what was 
described; rather, it was that I cannot tell from the 58503A listings 
exactly what is being described, or how what is described in one 
listing differs from what is described in other listings that vary 
considerably in price.  Nothing more.


The End,

Charles







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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Said Jackson]

Charles,

Because you make and post negative assumptions about a seller without any first 
hand experience based on your opinion on what you consider a sub-par EBay 
listing by a non-English seller.

> I'd be very reluctant to count on finding anything specific inside the 
> housing 

This is close to calling the seller a fraud in my opinion.

This seller gave me a most positive EBay purchase, with a unit that basically 
looked factory new and one could tell they spent a lot of time putting this 
package together.

It is unfair to post that kind of negative opinion without you having any first 
hand experience with them.

I wish most stateside sellers would be half as good as this seller, and 
consider him an asset to folks like us. I remember what it was like before we 
had EBay and could buy from these kind of sources, and hope we never have to go 
back to those dark days.

Bye,
Said

Sent From iPhone

On Sep 8, 2012, at 20:16, "Charles P. Steinmetz" 
 wrote:

> Said wrote:
> 
>> Not sure why this is confusing to you, he clearly explains all the 
>> differences in the description
> 
> I don't see anyplace where he "explains all the differences," clearly or 
> otherwise.  And as I said, ALL of the descriptions I've seen (including the 
> descriptions of the Z3805-based conversions and what may be original 58503As) 
> say the unit tracks 6 satellites.
> 
> Why so defensive?  I cast no aspersions on you or on the seller.  I just said 
> that the descriptions I've seen do not appear to me to explain the great 
> price differences and that there appear to be many different variants, so 
> getting exactly what someone else got may not be easy or straightforward.  
> Prospective buyers can judge for themselves.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Charles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Charles P. Steinmetz]

Said wrote:

Not sure why this is confusing to you, he clearly explains all the 
differences in the description


I don't see anyplace where he "explains all the differences," clearly 
or otherwise.  And as I said, ALL of the descriptions I've seen 
(including the descriptions of the Z3805-based conversions and what 
may be original 58503As) say the unit tracks 6 satellites.


Why so defensive?  I cast no aspersions on you or on the seller.  I 
just said that the descriptions I've seen do not appear to me to 
explain the great price differences and that there appear to be many 
different variants, so getting exactly what someone else got may not 
be easy or straightforward.  Prospective buyers can judge for themselves.


Best regards,

Charles







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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

It would be nice if somebody came up with a fast port adaptation to one of the 
standard data collection programs.

Bob

On Sep 8, 2012, at 9:45 PM, Magnus Danielson  wrote:

> On 09/09/2012 03:34 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> You will have a tough time with the 5372 running the longer time spans…
> 
> Yes and no. Using the 5372A internal memory, you have 8192 memory positions 
> to play with. You can mitigate that by parametrisation, Fast Port or just use 
> it as a triggered single-shot counter.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Magnus Danielson]

On 09/09/2012 03:34 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

You will have a tough time with the 5372 running the longer time spans…


Yes and no. Using the 5372A internal memory, you have 8192 memory 
positions to play with. You can mitigate that by parametrisation, Fast 
Port or just use it as a triggered single-shot counter.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

You will have a tough time with the 5372 running the longer time spans…

Bob

On Sep 8, 2012, at 9:08 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote:

> Sorry my mistake 5372A I will send you the data direct
> Bert Kehren
> 
> 
> In a message dated 9/8/2012 6:15:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
> azelio.bori...@screen.it writes:
> 
> The  HP5352A has a 2nS single shot resolution: how can you have 300pS or  
> 1nS
> measures?
> 
> On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 9:08 PM, Robert Liesenfeld   wrote:
> 
>> Wow, thank you everyone for the  wealth of information and advice.  It
>> sounds like for my needs,  either the TBolt or HP Z-box will do just fine,
>> and cost is going to  be more of a driver than anything else.  It seems 
> that
>> the HPs  are more plentiful on a certain well-known auction site, but
>> Thunderbolts are cheaper.  I'll keep an eye out for good  deals.
>> 
>> Again, big thanks to everyone for the information, and  for the welcoming
>> atmosphere!
>> 
>> -Rob
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Charles P.  Steinmetz <
>> charles_steinm...@lavabit.com>  wrote:
>> 
>>> Said wrote (re: eBay 58503As):
>>> 
>>> 
>>> they work well for me, look brand-new,  and came with power supply,
>> rs-232
 cable, and  antenna. I think it's a 5V antenna. The unit had about 
> 37000
>> on
 the lifetime.
 
 The seller  has close up photos, that's what the units look like. I
>> plugged
 in the power, ran GPSCon to start an Auto-Survey, and  they just 
> worked.
 
>>> 
>>> Looking at the  current and completed eBay listings for the 58503As from
>>> Hong  Kong, I notice that the seller seems to have conversion units 
> based
>> on
>>> the Z3801 and on the Z3805, and some that may be factory  58503As.  The
>>> listing text for all of them says they have  6-channel receivers.  Some
>> have
>>> no PPS outputs, some  have one, and some have two.  Some have internal 
> AC
>>> power  supplies, some have external supplies.  There appear to be at  
> least
>>> two different rear-panel layouts.  They are priced  from $260 to $999, 
> and
>>> it does not seem obvious what justifies  the radically different prices
>>> (aside from different  antennas).  Based on these confusing listings, 
> I'd
>> be
>>> very reluctant to count on finding anything specific inside the  
> housing
>>> (e.g, a particular OCXO) if I bought one, except possibly  the $999 
> units
>>> that may be factory 58503As.
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> 
>>> Charles
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> __**_
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>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts<
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts>
>>> and  follow the instructions there.
>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[EWKehren]

Sorry my mistake 5372A I will send you the data direct
Bert Kehren
 
 
In a message dated 9/8/2012 6:15:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
azelio.bori...@screen.it writes:

The  HP5352A has a 2nS single shot resolution: how can you have 300pS or  
1nS
measures?

On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 9:08 PM, Robert Liesenfeld   wrote:

> Wow, thank you everyone for the  wealth of information and advice.  It
> sounds like for my needs,  either the TBolt or HP Z-box will do just fine,
> and cost is going to  be more of a driver than anything else.  It seems 
that
> the HPs  are more plentiful on a certain well-known auction site, but
>  Thunderbolts are cheaper.  I'll keep an eye out for good  deals.
>
> Again, big thanks to everyone for the information, and  for the welcoming
> atmosphere!
>
>  -Rob
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Charles P.  Steinmetz <
> charles_steinm...@lavabit.com>  wrote:
>
> > Said wrote (re: eBay 58503As):
>  >
> >
> >  they work well for me, look brand-new,  and came with power supply,
> rs-232
> >> cable, and  antenna. I think it's a 5V antenna. The unit had about 
37000
>  on
> >> the lifetime.
> >>
> >> The seller  has close up photos, that's what the units look like. I
>  plugged
> >> in the power, ran GPSCon to start an Auto-Survey, and  they just 
worked.
> >>
> >
> > Looking at the  current and completed eBay listings for the 58503As from
> > Hong  Kong, I notice that the seller seems to have conversion units 
based
>  on
> > the Z3801 and on the Z3805, and some that may be factory  58503As.  The
> > listing text for all of them says they have  6-channel receivers.  Some
> have
> > no PPS outputs, some  have one, and some have two.  Some have internal 
AC
> > power  supplies, some have external supplies.  There appear to be at  
least
> > two different rear-panel layouts.  They are priced  from $260 to $999, 
and
> > it does not seem obvious what justifies  the radically different prices
> > (aside from different  antennas).  Based on these confusing listings, 
I'd
> be
>  > very reluctant to count on finding anything specific inside the  
housing
> > (e.g, a particular OCXO) if I bought one, except possibly  the $999 
units
> > that may be factory 58503As.
> >
>  > Best regards,
> >
> > Charles
> >
>  >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>  >
> > __**_
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>  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts>
> > and  follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Said Jackson]

Charles,

Not sure why this is confusing to you, he clearly explains all the differences 
in the description, and what is shown in the photos is exactly what I received.

The z3805A based units cost more than Z3801As, and the ones with one or two 
1pps and 10Mhz outputs cost slightly more.

He upgraded all of them to 58503A firmware and put rubber grommets on the 
outside, and the units I got have 10811As in them just as shown in the photos. 
And he has fantastic feedback.

The two recent units I got have 5 dB better phase noise than the Thunderbolts I 
have seen, especially close-in, and about 3x better ADEV. They come with 
Satstat.

Not to mention great packaging and ultra fast shipping, and no shipping charge.

If one can afford them, they will outperform a Thunderbolt by far. Also these 
are units using leaded solder, the Thunderbolt is RoHs, so they will eventually 
die from tin-whiskering..

And they can be easily run from a battery.

What more can one ask for $550?

Bye,
Said



On Sep 8, 2012, at 10:32, "Charles P. Steinmetz" 
 wrote:

> Said wrote (re: eBay 58503As):
> 
>> they work well for me, look brand-new, and came with power supply, rs-232
>> cable, and antenna. I think it's a 5V antenna. The unit had about 37000 on
>> the lifetime.
>> 
>> The seller has close up photos, that's what the units look like. I plugged
>> in the power, ran GPSCon to start an Auto-Survey, and they just worked.
> 
> Looking at the current and completed eBay listings for the 58503As from Hong 
> Kong, I notice that the seller seems to have conversion units based on the 
> Z3801 and on the Z3805, and some that may be factory 58503As.  The listing 
> text for all of them says they have 6-channel receivers.  Some have no PPS 
> outputs, some have one, and some have two.  Some have internal AC power 
> supplies, some have external supplies.  There appear to be at least two 
> different rear-panel layouts.  They are priced from $260 to $999, and it does 
> not seem obvious what justifies the radically different prices (aside from 
> different antennas).  Based on these confusing listings, I'd be very 
> reluctant to count on finding anything specific inside the housing (e.g, a 
> particular OCXO) if I bought one, except possibly the $999 units that may be 
> factory 58503As.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Charles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Azelio Boriani]

The HP5352A has a 2nS single shot resolution: how can you have 300pS or 1nS
measures?

On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 9:08 PM, Robert Liesenfeld  wrote:

> Wow, thank you everyone for the wealth of information and advice.  It
> sounds like for my needs, either the TBolt or HP Z-box will do just fine,
> and cost is going to be more of a driver than anything else.  It seems that
> the HPs are more plentiful on a certain well-known auction site, but
> Thunderbolts are cheaper.  I'll keep an eye out for good deals.
>
> Again, big thanks to everyone for the information, and for the welcoming
> atmosphere!
>
> -Rob
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Charles P. Steinmetz <
> charles_steinm...@lavabit.com> wrote:
>
> > Said wrote (re: eBay 58503As):
> >
> >
> >  they work well for me, look brand-new, and came with power supply,
> rs-232
> >> cable, and antenna. I think it's a 5V antenna. The unit had about 37000
> on
> >> the lifetime.
> >>
> >> The seller has close up photos, that's what the units look like. I
> plugged
> >> in the power, ran GPSCon to start an Auto-Survey, and they just worked.
> >>
> >
> > Looking at the current and completed eBay listings for the 58503As from
> > Hong Kong, I notice that the seller seems to have conversion units based
> on
> > the Z3801 and on the Z3805, and some that may be factory 58503As.  The
> > listing text for all of them says they have 6-channel receivers.  Some
> have
> > no PPS outputs, some have one, and some have two.  Some have internal AC
> > power supplies, some have external supplies.  There appear to be at least
> > two different rear-panel layouts.  They are priced from $260 to $999, and
> > it does not seem obvious what justifies the radically different prices
> > (aside from different antennas).  Based on these confusing listings, I'd
> be
> > very reluctant to count on finding anything specific inside the housing
> > (e.g, a particular OCXO) if I bought one, except possibly the $999 units
> > that may be factory 58503As.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Charles
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __**_
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**
> > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts<
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts>
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Robert Liesenfeld]

Wow, thank you everyone for the wealth of information and advice.  It
sounds like for my needs, either the TBolt or HP Z-box will do just fine,
and cost is going to be more of a driver than anything else.  It seems that
the HPs are more plentiful on a certain well-known auction site, but
Thunderbolts are cheaper.  I'll keep an eye out for good deals.

Again, big thanks to everyone for the information, and for the welcoming
atmosphere!

-Rob


On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Charles P. Steinmetz <
charles_steinm...@lavabit.com> wrote:

> Said wrote (re: eBay 58503As):
>
>
>  they work well for me, look brand-new, and came with power supply, rs-232
>> cable, and antenna. I think it's a 5V antenna. The unit had about 37000 on
>> the lifetime.
>>
>> The seller has close up photos, that's what the units look like. I plugged
>> in the power, ran GPSCon to start an Auto-Survey, and they just worked.
>>
>
> Looking at the current and completed eBay listings for the 58503As from
> Hong Kong, I notice that the seller seems to have conversion units based on
> the Z3801 and on the Z3805, and some that may be factory 58503As.  The
> listing text for all of them says they have 6-channel receivers.  Some have
> no PPS outputs, some have one, and some have two.  Some have internal AC
> power supplies, some have external supplies.  There appear to be at least
> two different rear-panel layouts.  They are priced from $260 to $999, and
> it does not seem obvious what justifies the radically different prices
> (aside from different antennas).  Based on these confusing listings, I'd be
> very reluctant to count on finding anything specific inside the housing
> (e.g, a particular OCXO) if I bought one, except possibly the $999 units
> that may be factory 58503As.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __**_
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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Charles P. Steinmetz]

Said wrote (re: eBay 58503As):


they work well for me, look brand-new, and came with power supply, rs-232
cable, and antenna. I think it's a 5V antenna. The unit had about 37000 on
the lifetime.

The seller has close up photos, that's what the units look like. I plugged
in the power, ran GPSCon to start an Auto-Survey, and they just worked.


Looking at the current and completed eBay listings for the 58503As 
from Hong Kong, I notice that the seller seems to have conversion 
units based on the Z3801 and on the Z3805, and some that may be 
factory 58503As.  The listing text for all of them says they have 
6-channel receivers.  Some have no PPS outputs, some have one, and 
some have two.  Some have internal AC power supplies, some have 
external supplies.  There appear to be at least two different 
rear-panel layouts.  They are priced from $260 to $999, and it does 
not seem obvious what justifies the radically different prices (aside 
from different antennas).  Based on these confusing listings, I'd be 
very reluctant to count on finding anything specific inside the 
housing (e.g, a particular OCXO) if I bought one, except possibly the 
$999 units that may be factory 58503As.


Best regards,

Charles







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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[EWKehren]

For a GPS receiver that is in my book acceptable but then I am not a  
time-nut. I use that signal to discipline Rb's. Works for me.
Bert Kehren
 
 
In a message dated 9/8/2012 12:47:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
li...@rtty.us writes:

Hi

If you stretch out to > 10,000 samples and watch over  a full 24 hour 
period, you likely will see some in the +/-1.5 ns  region.

Bob

On Sep 8, 2012, at 11:06 AM, ewkeh...@aol.com  wrote:

> Not being a time nut but a frequency nut I lack some of the  time test  
> equipment, but my partner on our joint development  work makes up for it. 
So he  
> among other things recently looked  at the 1 pps output of the Tbolt 
against 
> a  Cesium. Using a HP  5352A with 500 samples over 50% are within +- 300 
psec 
> and  all  within +-1 nsec. It makes an excellent GPS receiver and the 10 
MHz 
>  out make  a good reference for counters, spectrum analyser and Signal  
> Generators.  Good place to start, specially because of all the  software 
> available. Any  significant improvement on it should be  well thought out 
and lower 
> A/V   products are hard to find  and seldom cheap.
> Bert Kehren
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 7,  2012 at 11:34 AM, Robert Liesenfeld
wrote:
>> Hello-
>> 
>> My name is Robert   Liesenfeld, I discovered this mailing list via the
>> fascinating  website  leapsecond.com.  I'm an amateur radio operator  
(AK6L)
>> and builder,  and my interest in precise timekeeping  initially stemmed 
> from
>> simply  wanting a very  accurate clock source to which I could reference 
my
>> test   equipment (counter, spectrum analyzer, etc), but has expanded to a
>>  desire to perform timekeeping experiments.  I have several  questions;  
I
>> looked for a FAQ but couldn't find one, so I  hope it's alright to ask  
> here.
>> 
>> I'm  considering the purchase of a GPS receiver to serve as  my  
workbench
>> 10MHz source.  Since learning about precise   timekeeping, I've also 
become
>> interested in some experiments, such  as  measuring the stability of the
>> mains, the effect of the  ionosphere on  WWV/WWVH signals, and so on.  
So 
>  far
>> I've looked at various HP  "Z-boxes" (Z3816, Z3815,  Z3801, Z3805) and 
the
>> Trimble Thunderbolt  receiver.   All of these seem to be in the $200-$500
>> range I'm   targeting, but it's not clear what the differences are.  I've
>>  read  the Thunderbolt is an older design with fewer channels, but I  
don't
>> know  if that's really a problem for my intended  use.
>> 
>> I've also seen  many rubidium devices on  eBay, most seem to have been
>> removed from CDMA  cell tower  service.  Does anyone here have any 
> experience
>> with  such  devices, are the ex-cell-tower units any good?  I have read  
> that
>> a  rubidium standard's short-term stability is  not as good as a GPSDO, 
and
>> that they're mainly used for holdover  - is my understanding correct?   
My
>> thought is to  (eventually) use a rubidium device to stabilize a  GPSDO
>>  should the receiver lose satellite signal.
>> 
>>  Thank  you in advance for any advice!
>> 
>>  -Robert
>>  ___
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>> To unsubscribe, go to   
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>  and follow the  instructions  there.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

If you stretch out to > 10,000 samples and watch over a full 24 hour period, 
you likely will see some in the +/-1.5 ns region.

Bob

On Sep 8, 2012, at 11:06 AM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote:

> Not being a time nut but a frequency nut I lack some of the time test  
> equipment, but my partner on our joint development work makes up for it. So 
> he  
> among other things recently looked at the 1 pps output of the Tbolt against 
> a  Cesium. Using a HP 5352A with 500 samples over 50% are within +- 300 psec 
> and  all within +-1 nsec. It makes an excellent GPS receiver and the 10 MHz 
> out make  a good reference for counters, spectrum analyser and Signal 
> Generators.  Good place to start, specially because of all the software 
> available. Any  significant improvement on it should be well thought out and 
> lower 
> A/V   products are hard to find and seldom cheap.
> Bert Kehren
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Robert Liesenfeld   wrote:
>> Hello-
>> 
>> My name is Robert  Liesenfeld, I discovered this mailing list via the
>> fascinating website  leapsecond.com.  I'm an amateur radio operator (AK6L)
>> and builder,  and my interest in precise timekeeping initially stemmed 
> from
>> simply  wanting a very accurate clock source to which I could reference my
>> test  equipment (counter, spectrum analyzer, etc), but has expanded to a
>> desire to perform timekeeping experiments.  I have several questions;  I
>> looked for a FAQ but couldn't find one, so I hope it's alright to ask  
> here.
>> 
>> I'm considering the purchase of a GPS receiver to serve as  my workbench
>> 10MHz source.  Since learning about precise  timekeeping, I've also become
>> interested in some experiments, such as  measuring the stability of the
>> mains, the effect of the ionosphere on  WWV/WWVH signals, and so on.  So 
> far
>> I've looked at various HP  "Z-boxes" (Z3816, Z3815, Z3801, Z3805) and the
>> Trimble Thunderbolt  receiver.  All of these seem to be in the $200-$500
>> range I'm  targeting, but it's not clear what the differences are.  I've
>> read  the Thunderbolt is an older design with fewer channels, but I don't
>> know  if that's really a problem for my intended use.
>> 
>> I've also seen  many rubidium devices on eBay, most seem to have been
>> removed from CDMA  cell tower service.  Does anyone here have any 
> experience
>> with such  devices, are the ex-cell-tower units any good?  I have read 
> that
>> a  rubidium standard's short-term stability is not as good as a GPSDO, and
>> that they're mainly used for holdover - is my understanding correct?   My
>> thought is to (eventually) use a rubidium device to stabilize a  GPSDO
>> should the receiver lose satellite signal.
>> 
>> Thank  you in advance for any advice!
>> 
>> -Robert
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list  -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to  
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the  instructions  there.
> 
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> To unsubscribe, go to  
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the  instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[EWKehren]

Not being a time nut but a frequency nut I lack some of the time test  
equipment, but my partner on our joint development work makes up for it. So he  
among other things recently looked at the 1 pps output of the Tbolt against 
a  Cesium. Using a HP 5352A with 500 samples over 50% are within +- 300 psec 
and  all within +-1 nsec. It makes an excellent GPS receiver and the 10 MHz 
out make  a good reference for counters, spectrum analyser and Signal 
Generators.  Good place to start, specially because of all the software 
available. Any  significant improvement on it should be well thought out and 
lower 
A/V   products are hard to find and seldom cheap.
Bert Kehren
 
 
On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Robert Liesenfeld   wrote:
> Hello-
>
> My name is Robert  Liesenfeld, I discovered this mailing list via the
> fascinating website  leapsecond.com.  I'm an amateur radio operator (AK6L)
> and builder,  and my interest in precise timekeeping initially stemmed 
from
> simply  wanting a very accurate clock source to which I could reference my
> test  equipment (counter, spectrum analyzer, etc), but has expanded to a
>  desire to perform timekeeping experiments.  I have several questions;  I
> looked for a FAQ but couldn't find one, so I hope it's alright to ask  
here.
>
> I'm considering the purchase of a GPS receiver to serve as  my workbench
> 10MHz source.  Since learning about precise  timekeeping, I've also become
> interested in some experiments, such as  measuring the stability of the
> mains, the effect of the ionosphere on  WWV/WWVH signals, and so on.  So 
far
> I've looked at various HP  "Z-boxes" (Z3816, Z3815, Z3801, Z3805) and the
> Trimble Thunderbolt  receiver.  All of these seem to be in the $200-$500
> range I'm  targeting, but it's not clear what the differences are.  I've
> read  the Thunderbolt is an older design with fewer channels, but I don't
> know  if that's really a problem for my intended use.
>
> I've also seen  many rubidium devices on eBay, most seem to have been
> removed from CDMA  cell tower service.  Does anyone here have any 
experience
> with such  devices, are the ex-cell-tower units any good?  I have read 
that
> a  rubidium standard's short-term stability is not as good as a GPSDO, and
>  that they're mainly used for holdover - is my understanding correct?   My
> thought is to (eventually) use a rubidium device to stabilize a  GPSDO
> should the receiver lose satellite signal.
>
> Thank  you in advance for any advice!
>
> -Robert
>  ___
> time-nuts mailing list  -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the  instructions  there.

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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Ok, I've got at least one of all of these sitting in the basement. They are a 
very much mixed bag. Some of the HP's are quite good. Others not so much. The 
variation isn't so much model to model. They vary unit to unit. The TBolt's 
vary by year. Roughly they group as pre-2001, 2001 to 2003, and post 2004. The 
HP's also seem to die a bit quicker than the TBolts.  I'd *guess* the failure 
rate is at least 3X.

On a good unit, the HP Smart Clock software does a better job than the TBolt 
stock software. On a unit with "issues" the software chugs (switches settings) 
a lot. A manually tuned TBolt in a good environment can do very well. In a poor 
environment it's going go look like a boosted single oven 3801, but not be as 
good as the true double oven (MTI OCXO) version of the 3805. 

The strange temperature chip in the later TBolts isn't much of an issue. The 
chip is poorly located for temperature control. It only seems to impact the 
plots on Lady Heather. Trimble wasn't bothered enough by it to patch the 
firmware.

Bottom line, If the price is identical for all of them, go with the HP's. If 
the TBolt's are half (or 1/4) the delivered price of the HP's go with the 
TBolt. Either way, plan on getting a couple of them.   

Bob

On Sep 8, 2012, at 8:11 AM, Azelio Boriani  wrote:

> Can't compare the Z3805A to the HP58503A but I have found in the archives
> that the Z3805A has a 16 channel GPS receiver and it is better to find the
> Symmetricom labeled one as it has a real double-oven OCXO. According to a
> 2010 time-nut message the Z3805A is almost the same as the TBolt.
> 
> On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 3:53 AM, Edgardo Molina  wrote:
> 
>> Dear Said,
>> 
>> Thank you for your kind explanation. I will be considering such a purchase
>> in the near future. I will keep you informed about my experiences. You have
>> a nice evening.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Edgardo Molina
>> Dirección IPTEL
>> 
>> www.iptel.net.mx
>> 
>> T : 55 55 55202444
>> M : 04455 20501854
>> 
>> Piensa en Bits SA de CV
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Información anexa:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> CONFIDENCIALIDAD DE INFORMACION
>> 
>> Este mensaje tiene carácter confidencial. Si usted no es el destinarario
>> de este mensaje, le suplicamos se lo notifique al remitente mediante un
>> correo electrónico y que borre el presente mensaje y sus anexos de su
>> computadora sin retener una copia de los mismos. Queda estrictamente
>> prohibido copiar este mensaje o hacer usode el para cualquier propósito o
>> divulgar su en forma parcial o total su contenido. Gracias.
>> 
>> 
>> NON-DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION
>> 
>> This email is strictly confidential and may also be privileged. If you are
>> not the intended recipient please immediately advise the sender by replying
>> to this e-mail and then deleting the message and its attachments from your
>> computer without keeping a copy. It is strictly forbidden to copy it or use
>> it for any purpose or disclose its contents to any third party. Thank you.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 7, 2012, at 8:14 PM, saidj...@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Edgardo,
>>> 
>>> they work well for me, look brand-new, and came with power supply, rs-232
>>> cable, and antenna. I think it's a 5V antenna. The unit had about 37000
>> on
>>> the lifetime.
>>> 
>>> The seller has close up photos, that's what the units look like. I
>> plugged
>>> in the power, ran GPSCon to start an Auto-Survey, and they just worked.
>>> 
>>> I now get less than 3us predicted drift over 24 hours from one of the
>>> units, which is quite good according to others.
>>> 
>>> I think these are pretty good for the money (free shipping on mine) but
>>> there are differences between the three units I have just like the Z3801A
>>> plots  on leapsecond.com.
>>> 
>>> Hope that helps,
>>> Said
>>> 
>>> 
>>> In a message dated 9/7/2012 17:13:22 Pacific Daylight Time,
>>> xe1...@amsat.org writes:
>>> 
>>> Dear  Said,
>>> 
>>> Good afternoon. How is the service and cosmetic condition of the  HP GPS
>>> products you have bought from this source? I am considering a Z3805A
>> just for
>>> the sake of owning one and the versatility of plug and play.   Still
>> afraid
>>> to take the plunge.
>>> 
>>> Did you buy a raw unit? Or as a kit  with antenna. Is that a 5V or 12V
>>> antenna?  I am integrating a TBolt into  a 1U rack case which also has
>> space for
>>> a Rb oscillator for future  disciplining. Got a nice TBolt monitor and
>>> would love to also include a  frequency divider to get 5 and 1MHz from
>> the
>>> TBolt.
>>> 
>>> Your kind comments  are welcome. Thank you.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Edgardo  Molina
>>> Dirección IPTEL
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubsc

Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Azelio Boriani]

Can't compare the Z3805A to the HP58503A but I have found in the archives
that the Z3805A has a 16 channel GPS receiver and it is better to find the
Symmetricom labeled one as it has a real double-oven OCXO. According to a
2010 time-nut message the Z3805A is almost the same as the TBolt.

On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 3:53 AM, Edgardo Molina  wrote:

> Dear Said,
>
> Thank you for your kind explanation. I will be considering such a purchase
> in the near future. I will keep you informed about my experiences. You have
> a nice evening.
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Edgardo Molina
> Dirección IPTEL
>
> www.iptel.net.mx
>
> T : 55 55 55202444
> M : 04455 20501854
>
> Piensa en Bits SA de CV
>
>
>
> Información anexa:
>
>
>
>
> CONFIDENCIALIDAD DE INFORMACION
>
> Este mensaje tiene carácter confidencial. Si usted no es el destinarario
> de este mensaje, le suplicamos se lo notifique al remitente mediante un
> correo electrónico y que borre el presente mensaje y sus anexos de su
> computadora sin retener una copia de los mismos. Queda estrictamente
> prohibido copiar este mensaje o hacer usode el para cualquier propósito o
> divulgar su en forma parcial o total su contenido. Gracias.
>
>
> NON-DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION
>
> This email is strictly confidential and may also be privileged. If you are
> not the intended recipient please immediately advise the sender by replying
> to this e-mail and then deleting the message and its attachments from your
> computer without keeping a copy. It is strictly forbidden to copy it or use
> it for any purpose or disclose its contents to any third party. Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 7, 2012, at 8:14 PM, saidj...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Hi Edgardo,
> >
> > they work well for me, look brand-new, and came with power supply, rs-232
> > cable, and antenna. I think it's a 5V antenna. The unit had about 37000
> on
> > the lifetime.
> >
> > The seller has close up photos, that's what the units look like. I
> plugged
> > in the power, ran GPSCon to start an Auto-Survey, and they just worked.
> >
> > I now get less than 3us predicted drift over 24 hours from one of the
> > units, which is quite good according to others.
> >
> > I think these are pretty good for the money (free shipping on mine) but
> > there are differences between the three units I have just like the Z3801A
> > plots  on leapsecond.com.
> >
> > Hope that helps,
> > Said
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 9/7/2012 17:13:22 Pacific Daylight Time,
> > xe1...@amsat.org writes:
> >
> > Dear  Said,
> >
> > Good afternoon. How is the service and cosmetic condition of the  HP GPS
> > products you have bought from this source? I am considering a Z3805A
>  just for
> > the sake of owning one and the versatility of plug and play.   Still
> afraid
> > to take the plunge.
> >
> > Did you buy a raw unit? Or as a kit  with antenna. Is that a 5V or 12V
> > antenna?  I am integrating a TBolt into  a 1U rack case which also has
> space for
> > a Rb oscillator for future  disciplining. Got a nice TBolt monitor and
> > would love to also include a  frequency divider to get 5 and 1MHz from
> the
> > TBolt.
> >
> > Your kind comments  are welcome. Thank you.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > Edgardo  Molina
> > Dirección IPTEL
> >
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Edgardo Molina]

Dear Said,

Thank you for your kind explanation. I will be considering such a purchase in 
the near future. I will keep you informed about my experiences. You have a nice 
evening.

Regards,



Edgardo Molina
Dirección IPTEL

www.iptel.net.mx

T : 55 55 55202444
M : 04455 20501854

Piensa en Bits SA de CV



Información anexa:




CONFIDENCIALIDAD DE INFORMACION

Este mensaje tiene carácter confidencial. Si usted no es el destinarario de 
este mensaje, le suplicamos se lo notifique al remitente mediante un correo 
electrónico y que borre el presente mensaje y sus anexos de su computadora sin 
retener una copia de los mismos. Queda estrictamente prohibido copiar este 
mensaje o hacer usode el para cualquier propósito o divulgar su en forma 
parcial o total su contenido. Gracias.


NON-DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION

This email is strictly confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not 
the intended recipient please immediately advise the sender by replying to this 
e-mail and then deleting the message and its attachments from your computer 
without keeping a copy. It is strictly forbidden to copy it or use it for any 
purpose or disclose its contents to any third party. Thank you.





On Sep 7, 2012, at 8:14 PM, saidj...@aol.com wrote:

> Hi Edgardo,
> 
> they work well for me, look brand-new, and came with power supply, rs-232  
> cable, and antenna. I think it's a 5V antenna. The unit had about 37000 on  
> the lifetime.
> 
> The seller has close up photos, that's what the units look like. I plugged  
> in the power, ran GPSCon to start an Auto-Survey, and they just worked.
> 
> I now get less than 3us predicted drift over 24 hours from one of the  
> units, which is quite good according to others.
> 
> I think these are pretty good for the money (free shipping on mine) but  
> there are differences between the three units I have just like the Z3801A 
> plots  on leapsecond.com.
> 
> Hope that helps,
> Said
> 
> 
> In a message dated 9/7/2012 17:13:22 Pacific Daylight Time,  
> xe1...@amsat.org writes:
> 
> Dear  Said,
> 
> Good afternoon. How is the service and cosmetic condition of the  HP GPS 
> products you have bought from this source? I am considering a Z3805A  just 
> for 
> the sake of owning one and the versatility of plug and play.   Still afraid 
> to take the plunge.
> 
> Did you buy a raw unit? Or as a kit  with antenna. Is that a 5V or 12V 
> antenna?  I am integrating a TBolt into  a 1U rack case which also has space 
> for 
> a Rb oscillator for future  disciplining. Got a nice TBolt monitor and 
> would love to also include a  frequency divider to get 5 and 1MHz from the 
> TBolt. 
> 
> Your kind comments  are welcome. Thank you.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> 
> Edgardo  Molina
> Dirección IPTEL
> 
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[SAIDJACK]

Hi Jerry,
 
I am not familiar with those, sorry.
 
The only complaint I would have about the 58503A units I have is that they  
have a bit of power supply spurs at about -130dBc. Running them from  
batteries would probably take care of that. Otherwise they work great for  me 
and 
provide both great ADEV and very good phase noise at the same time, what  
else can one ask for $550.. But again, there may be large unit-to-unit  
variations as Tom has found out, and I may have been lucky with the units I  
received..
 
bye,
Said
 
 
In a message dated 9/7/2012 15:55:04 Pacific Daylight Time,  
jster...@att.net writes:

Said,

Where do you rank the Samsung GCRU-D among  these?

Jerry


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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[SAIDJACK]

Hi Edgardo,
 
they work well for me, look brand-new, and came with power supply, rs-232  
cable, and antenna. I think it's a 5V antenna. The unit had about 37000 on  
the lifetime.
 
The seller has close up photos, that's what the units look like. I plugged  
in the power, ran GPSCon to start an Auto-Survey, and they just worked.
 
I now get less than 3us predicted drift over 24 hours from one of the  
units, which is quite good according to others.
 
I think these are pretty good for the money (free shipping on mine) but  
there are differences between the three units I have just like the Z3801A 
plots  on leapsecond.com.
 
Hope that helps,
Said
 
 
In a message dated 9/7/2012 17:13:22 Pacific Daylight Time,  
xe1...@amsat.org writes:

Dear  Said,

Good afternoon. How is the service and cosmetic condition of the  HP GPS 
products you have bought from this source? I am considering a Z3805A  just for 
the sake of owning one and the versatility of plug and play.   Still afraid 
to take the plunge.

Did you buy a raw unit? Or as a kit  with antenna. Is that a 5V or 12V 
antenna?  I am integrating a TBolt into  a 1U rack case which also has space 
for 
a Rb oscillator for future  disciplining. Got a nice TBolt monitor and 
would love to also include a  frequency divider to get 5 and 1MHz from the 
TBolt. 

Your kind comments  are welcome. Thank you.

Regards,



Edgardo  Molina
Dirección IPTEL


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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Edgardo Molina]

Dear Azelio,

Do you know how the Z3805A compares to the 58503A? 

Cheers!



Edgardo Molina
Dirección IPTEL

www.iptel.net.mx

T : 55 55 55202444
M : 04455 20501854

Piensa en Bits SA de CV



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On Sep 7, 2012, at 3:58 PM, Azelio Boriani  wrote:

> Good one, the HP58503A, actually it is my reference at work.
> 
> On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 10:37 PM,  wrote:
> 
>> Hello Robert,
>> 
>> your question is like asking which car you should buy, or which airline you
>> should fly :)
>> 
>> Everyone will have a different answer.
>> 
>> But I do not recommend the Thunderbolts, it's a crab-shoot with them
>> (different versions have different performance, the new ones are  actually
>> worse
>> than older versions because of the temperature chip  issue, the GPS is
>> known
>> to have lock issues, they don't work well until you  spend a lot of time
>> fine-tuning the parameters, etc etc) - that has all  been discussed here
>> ad-infinitum and you can find it in the archives.
>> 
>> I recommend you search Ebay for HP 58503A. I just bought a number of them
>> from a very well known seller in China, and they are absolutely  superb,
>> much better than any Rubidium unit I have tested. Much better  than the
>> Thunderbolt I have, and just slightly more expensive. He sells an  entire
>> kit for
>> around $500, and it arrived here in less than a week (Northern
>> California).
>> 
>> This seller starts those units at around $260 I think. Performance you can
>> get from these if you get a good one is: phase noise floor of  around
>> -163dBc, ADEV of 7E-013 to about 1E-012 to over 100s. Leapsecond.com  has a
>> number of test papers on these units. Caveat-emptor: there are significant
>> unit-to-unit variations as with all GPSDO, Tom on leapsecond.comdiscusses 
>> this
>> in detail. BTW: these are essentially the same unit as the Z3801A, just
>> different software (ID string).
>> 
>> I also have a Z3815A, and it is not even in the same class as the
>> Z3801A/58503A. It is very noisy compared to the 58503A unit. I do not
>> recommend the
>> Z3815A, but it is a unique oscillator design,and some folks  collect it for
>> that oscillator. The 58503A uses a double oven version of the HP  10811A,
>> which is a fantastic oscillator if you get a well-working one.
>> 
>> If you want something low-cost with reasonable performance, brand new  with
>> warranty, antenna, and accessories, Jackson Labs Technologies, Inc.  has
>> the GPSTCXO eval kit for Time-Nuts special academic pricing of $300, which
>> we
>> believe is the lowest-cost true GPSDO (not NCO) in current  production.
>> Disclaimer: I work for them.
>> 
>> bye,
>> Said
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> In a message dated 9/7/2012 13:09:24 Pacific Daylight Time,
>> azelio.bori...@screen.it writes:
>> 
>> Welcome  aboard,
>> yes, there is no FAQ about how to start in this hobby... should I  try to
>> implement one? Anyway, start with a Trimble Thunderbolt (aka TBolt),  later
>> you will know why it is highly recommended (direct OCXO disciplining  and
>> LH
>> software support, mainly). I have a Z3815A with the famous (or  infamous)
>> E1938A "hockey puck" OCXO. They are all GPSDOs and there should  not be any
>> difference among them but, yes, there are differences in their  performance
>> and being a time-nut means test and find out. Then there are  GPS
>> disciplined Rubidiums, but take this step after the first GPSDO  is
>> correctly installed and stabilized. Start with the antenna: find a
>> suitable
>> place, with a 360 deg clear view of the sky, a satellite TV cable  (sounds
>> unusual, but works great).
>> 
>> On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 8:52 PM,  Robert Darlington
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> You want to  start with a GPSDO.  I like the Trimble Thunderbolt.  The
>>> price is right and they're readily available.  I have no  experience
>>> with the HP units but they seem to be highly  regarded.
>>> 
>>> Rb oscillators are great for some things, but need  to be calibrated.
>>> That's where the GPSDO comes in.
>>> 
>>> Also, don't forget the antenna.   You'll want something along  these
>>> lines:
>>> 
>> 
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/

Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Edgardo Molina]

Dear Said,

Good afternoon. How is the service and cosmetic condition of the HP GPS 
products you have bought from this source? I am considering a Z3805A just for 
the sake of owning one and the versatility of plug and play.  Still afraid to 
take the plunge.

Did you buy a raw unit? Or as a kit with antenna. Is that a 5V or 12V antenna?  
I am integrating a TBolt into a 1U rack case which also has space for a Rb 
oscillator for future disciplining. Got a nice TBolt monitor and would love to 
also include a frequency divider to get 5 and 1MHz from the TBolt. 

Your kind comments are welcome. Thank you.

Regards,



Edgardo Molina
Dirección IPTEL

www.iptel.net.mx

T : 55 55 55202444
M : 04455 20501854

Piensa en Bits SA de CV



Información anexa:




CONFIDENCIALIDAD DE INFORMACION

Este mensaje tiene carácter confidencial. Si usted no es el destinarario de 
este mensaje, le suplicamos se lo notifique al remitente mediante un correo 
electrónico y que borre el presente mensaje y sus anexos de su computadora sin 
retener una copia de los mismos. Queda estrictamente prohibido copiar este 
mensaje o hacer usode el para cualquier propósito o divulgar su en forma 
parcial o total su contenido. Gracias.


NON-DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION

This email is strictly confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not 
the intended recipient please immediately advise the sender by replying to this 
e-mail and then deleting the message and its attachments from your computer 
without keeping a copy. It is strictly forbidden to copy it or use it for any 
purpose or disclose its contents to any third party. Thank you.





On Sep 7, 2012, at 3:56 PM, saidj...@aol.com wrote:

> Robert,
> 
> 
> my bad, that seller offers  58503A units based on both Z3801A and Z3805A. 
> The latter has a 16 channel GPS  receiver, so seems to me much more desirable 
> than the Z3801A. $50 difference. I  have been testing the latter, not the 
> former. 
> bye,
> Said
> 
> 
> In a message dated 9/7/2012 13:37:52 Pacific Daylight Time,  
> saidj...@aol.com writes:
> 
> BTW:  these are essentially the same unit as the Z3801A, just  
> different  software (ID string).
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Azelio Boriani]

And this is the key: finding out what types of measurements can be done is
part of the path to be taken being a time-nut. It is better to use what
already may be available in the home lab (usually every experimenter has a
'scope) and delay the purchase of the test gear.

On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 12:51 AM, Mark Spencer wrote:

> Robert, you have gotten some good advice already.
>
> With regards to rubidium standards I've bought several of the cheaper
> rubidium units and with the benefit of hindsight I would have put the money
> towards a higher quality item such as a PRS 10.   There are some good write
> ups on line that summarize the performance of the more commonly avaliable
> rubidium standards.  If you haven't already done so you might want to start
> considering what type of measurement gear you are going to use for your
> experiments.  Before purchasing a time interval counter I was able to do
> quite a bit of experimenting using a dual trace oscilloscope to compare two
> signals.
>
> Regards
> Mark Spencer
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Jerry]

Said,

Where do you rank the Samsung GCRU-D among these?

Jerry

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of saidj...@aol.com
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 4:37 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

Hello Robert,
 
your question is like asking which car you should buy, or which airline you
should fly :)
 
Everyone will have a different answer.
 
But I do not recommend the Thunderbolts, it's a crab-shoot with them
(different versions have different performance, the new ones are  actually
worse than older versions because of the temperature chip  issue, the GPS is
known to have lock issues, they don't work well until you  spend a lot of
time fine-tuning the parameters, etc etc) - that has all  been discussed
here ad-infinitum and you can find it in the archives.
 
I recommend you search Ebay for HP 58503A. I just bought a number of them
from a very well known seller in China, and they are absolutely  superb,
much better than any Rubidium unit I have tested. Much better  than the
Thunderbolt I have, and just slightly more expensive. He sells an  entire
kit for around $500, and it arrived here in less than a week (Northern
California).
 
This seller starts those units at around $260 I think. Performance you can
get from these if you get a good one is: phase noise floor of  around
-163dBc, ADEV of 7E-013 to about 1E-012 to over 100s. Leapsecond.com  has a
number of test papers on these units. Caveat-emptor: there are significant
unit-to-unit variations as with all GPSDO, Tom on leapsecond.com discusses
this in detail. BTW: these are essentially the same unit as the Z3801A, just
different software (ID string).
 
I also have a Z3815A, and it is not even in the same class as the
Z3801A/58503A. It is very noisy compared to the 58503A unit. I do not
recommend the Z3815A, but it is a unique oscillator design,and some folks
collect it for that oscillator. The 58503A uses a double oven version of the
HP  10811A, which is a fantastic oscillator if you get a well-working one.
 
If you want something low-cost with reasonable performance, brand new  with
warranty, antenna, and accessories, Jackson Labs Technologies, Inc.  has the
GPSTCXO eval kit for Time-Nuts special academic pricing of $300, which  we
believe is the lowest-cost true GPSDO (not NCO) in current  production. 
Disclaimer: I work for them.
 
bye,
Said
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/7/2012 13:09:24 Pacific Daylight Time,
azelio.bori...@screen.it writes:

Welcome  aboard,
yes, there is no FAQ about how to start in this hobby... should I  try to
implement one? Anyway, start with a Trimble Thunderbolt (aka TBolt),  later
you will know why it is highly recommended (direct OCXO disciplining  and LH
software support, mainly). I have a Z3815A with the famous (or  infamous)
E1938A "hockey puck" OCXO. They are all GPSDOs and there should  not be any
difference among them but, yes, there are differences in their  performance
and being a time-nut means test and find out. Then there are  GPS
disciplined Rubidiums, but take this step after the first GPSDO  is
correctly installed and stabilized. Start with the antenna: find a  suitable
place, with a 360 deg clear view of the sky, a satellite TV cable  (sounds
unusual, but works great).

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 8:52 PM,  Robert Darlington
wrote:

> You want to  start with a GPSDO.  I like the Trimble Thunderbolt.  The  
> price is right and they're readily available.  I have no  experience 
> with the HP units but they seem to be highly  regarded.
>
> Rb oscillators are great for some things, but need  to be calibrated.
> That's where the GPSDO comes in.
>
>  Also, don't forget the antenna.   You'll want something along  these
> lines:
>  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/lucent-GPS-Timing-Reference-Antenna-antenne-40db-N-/
230848464732?pt=GPS_Antennas&hash=item35bfa4075c#ht_2199wt_1404
>
>  Welcome aboard, and I'm apologizing in advance for how much money  
> you'll be spending on new toys.
>
>  -Bob

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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Mark Spencer]

Robert, you have gotten some good advice already.  

With regards to rubidium standards I've bought several of the cheaper rubidium 
units and with the benefit of hindsight I would have put the money towards a 
higher quality item such as a PRS 10.   There are some good write ups on line 
that summarize the performance of the more commonly avaliable rubidium 
standards.  If you haven't already done so you might want to start considering 
what type of measurement gear you are going to use for your experiments.  
Before purchasing a time interval counter I was able to do quite a bit of 
experimenting using a dual trace oscilloscope to compare two signals.

Regards
Mark Spencer





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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Azelio Boriani]

Good one, the HP58503A, actually it is my reference at work.

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 10:37 PM,  wrote:

> Hello Robert,
>
> your question is like asking which car you should buy, or which airline you
>  should fly :)
>
> Everyone will have a different answer.
>
> But I do not recommend the Thunderbolts, it's a crab-shoot with them
> (different versions have different performance, the new ones are  actually
> worse
> than older versions because of the temperature chip  issue, the GPS is
> known
> to have lock issues, they don't work well until you  spend a lot of time
> fine-tuning the parameters, etc etc) - that has all  been discussed here
> ad-infinitum and you can find it in the archives.
>
> I recommend you search Ebay for HP 58503A. I just bought a number of them
> from a very well known seller in China, and they are absolutely  superb,
> much better than any Rubidium unit I have tested. Much better  than the
> Thunderbolt I have, and just slightly more expensive. He sells an  entire
> kit for
> around $500, and it arrived here in less than a week (Northern
>  California).
>
> This seller starts those units at around $260 I think. Performance you can
> get from these if you get a good one is: phase noise floor of  around
> -163dBc, ADEV of 7E-013 to about 1E-012 to over 100s. Leapsecond.com  has a
> number of test papers on these units. Caveat-emptor: there are significant
> unit-to-unit variations as with all GPSDO, Tom on leapsecond.comdiscusses this
> in detail. BTW: these are essentially the same unit as the Z3801A, just
> different software (ID string).
>
> I also have a Z3815A, and it is not even in the same class as the
> Z3801A/58503A. It is very noisy compared to the 58503A unit. I do not
>  recommend the
> Z3815A, but it is a unique oscillator design,and some folks  collect it for
> that oscillator. The 58503A uses a double oven version of the HP  10811A,
> which is a fantastic oscillator if you get a well-working one.
>
> If you want something low-cost with reasonable performance, brand new  with
> warranty, antenna, and accessories, Jackson Labs Technologies, Inc.  has
> the GPSTCXO eval kit for Time-Nuts special academic pricing of $300, which
>  we
> believe is the lowest-cost true GPSDO (not NCO) in current  production.
> Disclaimer: I work for them.
>
> bye,
> Said
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 9/7/2012 13:09:24 Pacific Daylight Time,
> azelio.bori...@screen.it writes:
>
> Welcome  aboard,
> yes, there is no FAQ about how to start in this hobby... should I  try to
> implement one? Anyway, start with a Trimble Thunderbolt (aka TBolt),  later
> you will know why it is highly recommended (direct OCXO disciplining  and
> LH
> software support, mainly). I have a Z3815A with the famous (or  infamous)
> E1938A "hockey puck" OCXO. They are all GPSDOs and there should  not be any
> difference among them but, yes, there are differences in their  performance
> and being a time-nut means test and find out. Then there are  GPS
> disciplined Rubidiums, but take this step after the first GPSDO  is
> correctly installed and stabilized. Start with the antenna: find a
>  suitable
> place, with a 360 deg clear view of the sky, a satellite TV cable  (sounds
> unusual, but works great).
>
> On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 8:52 PM,  Robert Darlington
> wrote:
>
> > You want to  start with a GPSDO.  I like the Trimble Thunderbolt.  The
> >  price is right and they're readily available.  I have no  experience
> > with the HP units but they seem to be highly  regarded.
> >
> > Rb oscillators are great for some things, but need  to be calibrated.
> > That's where the GPSDO comes in.
> >
> >  Also, don't forget the antenna.   You'll want something along  these
> > lines:
> >
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/lucent-GPS-Timing-Reference-Antenna-antenne-40db-N-/230848464732?pt=GPS_Antennas&hash=item35bfa4075c#ht_2199wt_1404
> >
> >  Welcome aboard, and I'm apologizing in advance for how much money
> >  you'll be spending on new toys.
> >
> >  -Bob
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[SAIDJACK]

Robert,
 
 
my bad, that seller offers  58503A units based on both Z3801A and Z3805A. 
The latter has a 16 channel GPS  receiver, so seems to me much more desirable 
than the Z3801A. $50 difference. I  have been testing the latter, not the 
former. 
bye,
Said
 
 
In a message dated 9/7/2012 13:37:52 Pacific Daylight Time,  
saidj...@aol.com writes:

BTW:  these are essentially the same unit as the Z3801A, just  
different  software (ID string).


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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Chris Albertson]

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 10:34 AM, Robert Liesenfeld  wrote:
> Hello-
>

> I'm considering the purchase of a GPS receiver to serve as my workbench
> 10MHz source.

Buy a Thunderbolt first.  This is I think the best value and
technicaly hard to beat.  These is much support for the t-bolt here.
many people know about them.



> ...I have read that
> a rubidium standard's short-term stability is not as good as a GPSDO, and
> that they're mainly used for holdover - is my understanding correct?  My
> thought is to (eventually) use a rubidium device to stabilize a GPSDO
> should the receiver lose satellite signal.

Hold over is their best use.  But they work well as a portable
standard and if you need something that can work quickly after power
is applied with no need to set up a GPS antenna and wait for a
self-survey.   I is actually very unlikely that the GPS signal will
fail.  This might happen on a cell tower where some transmitter might
fail and jam GPS but it is unlikely at your home.  I think the Rb's
best use is is portable or temporary uses where yo can't set up a GPS.

One more thing.  If your budget were lower you could build a GPSDO
using a $20 GPS and a $20 OCXO plus some "glue" logic and get pretty
good performance for about $100.   The reason to build might be any of
these (1) you want soething that uses very low power (2) you need some
feature like automated failover to Rb on loss of signal, or (3) self
education.

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[SAIDJACK]

Hello Robert,
 
your question is like asking which car you should buy, or which airline you 
 should fly :)
 
Everyone will have a different answer.
 
But I do not recommend the Thunderbolts, it's a crab-shoot with them  
(different versions have different performance, the new ones are  actually 
worse 
than older versions because of the temperature chip  issue, the GPS is known 
to have lock issues, they don't work well until you  spend a lot of time 
fine-tuning the parameters, etc etc) - that has all  been discussed here 
ad-infinitum and you can find it in the archives.
 
I recommend you search Ebay for HP 58503A. I just bought a number of them  
from a very well known seller in China, and they are absolutely  superb, 
much better than any Rubidium unit I have tested. Much better  than the 
Thunderbolt I have, and just slightly more expensive. He sells an  entire kit 
for 
around $500, and it arrived here in less than a week (Northern  California).
 
This seller starts those units at around $260 I think. Performance you can  
get from these if you get a good one is: phase noise floor of  around 
-163dBc, ADEV of 7E-013 to about 1E-012 to over 100s. Leapsecond.com  has a 
number of test papers on these units. Caveat-emptor: there are significant  
unit-to-unit variations as with all GPSDO, Tom on leapsecond.com discusses this 
 
in detail. BTW: these are essentially the same unit as the Z3801A, just  
different software (ID string).
 
I also have a Z3815A, and it is not even in the same class as the  
Z3801A/58503A. It is very noisy compared to the 58503A unit. I do not  
recommend the 
Z3815A, but it is a unique oscillator design,and some folks  collect it for 
that oscillator. The 58503A uses a double oven version of the HP  10811A, 
which is a fantastic oscillator if you get a well-working one.
 
If you want something low-cost with reasonable performance, brand new  with 
warranty, antenna, and accessories, Jackson Labs Technologies, Inc.  has 
the GPSTCXO eval kit for Time-Nuts special academic pricing of $300, which  we 
believe is the lowest-cost true GPSDO (not NCO) in current  production. 
Disclaimer: I work for them.
 
bye,
Said
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/7/2012 13:09:24 Pacific Daylight Time,  
azelio.bori...@screen.it writes:

Welcome  aboard,
yes, there is no FAQ about how to start in this hobby... should I  try to
implement one? Anyway, start with a Trimble Thunderbolt (aka TBolt),  later
you will know why it is highly recommended (direct OCXO disciplining  and LH
software support, mainly). I have a Z3815A with the famous (or  infamous)
E1938A "hockey puck" OCXO. They are all GPSDOs and there should  not be any
difference among them but, yes, there are differences in their  performance
and being a time-nut means test and find out. Then there are  GPS
disciplined Rubidiums, but take this step after the first GPSDO  is
correctly installed and stabilized. Start with the antenna: find a  suitable
place, with a 360 deg clear view of the sky, a satellite TV cable  (sounds
unusual, but works great).

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 8:52 PM,  Robert Darlington 
wrote:

> You want to  start with a GPSDO.  I like the Trimble Thunderbolt.  The
>  price is right and they're readily available.  I have no  experience
> with the HP units but they seem to be highly  regarded.
>
> Rb oscillators are great for some things, but need  to be calibrated.
> That's where the GPSDO comes in.
>
>  Also, don't forget the antenna.   You'll want something along  these
> lines:
>  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/lucent-GPS-Timing-Reference-Antenna-antenne-40db-N-/230848464732?pt=GPS_Antennas&hash=item35bfa4075c#ht_2199wt_1404
>
>  Welcome aboard, and I'm apologizing in advance for how much money
>  you'll be spending on new toys.
>
>  -Bob

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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Azelio Boriani]

Welcome aboard,
yes, there is no FAQ about how to start in this hobby... should I try to
implement one? Anyway, start with a Trimble Thunderbolt (aka TBolt), later
you will know why it is highly recommended (direct OCXO disciplining and LH
software support, mainly). I have a Z3815A with the famous (or infamous)
E1938A "hockey puck" OCXO. They are all GPSDOs and there should not be any
difference among them but, yes, there are differences in their performance
and being a time-nut means test and find out. Then there are GPS
disciplined Rubidiums, but take this step after the first GPSDO is
correctly installed and stabilized. Start with the antenna: find a suitable
place, with a 360 deg clear view of the sky, a satellite TV cable (sounds
unusual, but works great).

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 8:52 PM, Robert Darlington wrote:

> You want to start with a GPSDO.  I like the Trimble Thunderbolt.  The
> price is right and they're readily available.  I have no experience
> with the HP units but they seem to be highly regarded.
>
> Rb oscillators are great for some things, but need to be calibrated.
> That's where the GPSDO comes in.
>
> Also, don't forget the antenna.   You'll want something along these
> lines:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/lucent-GPS-Timing-Reference-Antenna-antenne-40db-N-/230848464732?pt=GPS_Antennas&hash=item35bfa4075c#ht_2199wt_1404
>
> Welcome aboard, and I'm apologizing in advance for how much money
> you'll be spending on new toys.
>
> -Bob
>
> On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Robert Liesenfeld 
> wrote:
> > Hello-
> >
> > My name is Robert Liesenfeld, I discovered this mailing list via the
> > fascinating website leapsecond.com.  I'm an amateur radio operator
> (AK6L)
> > and builder, and my interest in precise timekeeping initially stemmed
> from
> > simply wanting a very accurate clock source to which I could reference my
> > test equipment (counter, spectrum analyzer, etc), but has expanded to a
> > desire to perform timekeeping experiments.  I have several questions; I
> > looked for a FAQ but couldn't find one, so I hope it's alright to ask
> here.
> >
> > I'm considering the purchase of a GPS receiver to serve as my workbench
> > 10MHz source.  Since learning about precise timekeeping, I've also become
> > interested in some experiments, such as measuring the stability of the
> > mains, the effect of the ionosphere on WWV/WWVH signals, and so on.  So
> far
> > I've looked at various HP "Z-boxes" (Z3816, Z3815, Z3801, Z3805) and the
> > Trimble Thunderbolt receiver.  All of these seem to be in the $200-$500
> > range I'm targeting, but it's not clear what the differences are.  I've
> > read the Thunderbolt is an older design with fewer channels, but I don't
> > know if that's really a problem for my intended use.
> >
> > I've also seen many rubidium devices on eBay, most seem to have been
> > removed from CDMA cell tower service.  Does anyone here have any
> experience
> > with such devices, are the ex-cell-tower units any good?  I have read
> that
> > a rubidium standard's short-term stability is not as good as a GPSDO, and
> > that they're mainly used for holdover - is my understanding correct?  My
> > thought is to (eventually) use a rubidium device to stabilize a GPSDO
> > should the receiver lose satellite signal.
> >
> > Thank you in advance for any advice!
> >
> > -Robert
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for a newbie?

[Robert Darlington]

You want to start with a GPSDO.  I like the Trimble Thunderbolt.  The
price is right and they're readily available.  I have no experience
with the HP units but they seem to be highly regarded.

Rb oscillators are great for some things, but need to be calibrated.
That's where the GPSDO comes in.

Also, don't forget the antenna.   You'll want something along these
lines: 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/lucent-GPS-Timing-Reference-Antenna-antenne-40db-N-/230848464732?pt=GPS_Antennas&hash=item35bfa4075c#ht_2199wt_1404

Welcome aboard, and I'm apologizing in advance for how much money
you'll be spending on new toys.

-Bob

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Robert Liesenfeld  wrote:
> Hello-
>
> My name is Robert Liesenfeld, I discovered this mailing list via the
> fascinating website leapsecond.com.  I'm an amateur radio operator (AK6L)
> and builder, and my interest in precise timekeeping initially stemmed from
> simply wanting a very accurate clock source to which I could reference my
> test equipment (counter, spectrum analyzer, etc), but has expanded to a
> desire to perform timekeeping experiments.  I have several questions; I
> looked for a FAQ but couldn't find one, so I hope it's alright to ask here.
>
> I'm considering the purchase of a GPS receiver to serve as my workbench
> 10MHz source.  Since learning about precise timekeeping, I've also become
> interested in some experiments, such as measuring the stability of the
> mains, the effect of the ionosphere on WWV/WWVH signals, and so on.  So far
> I've looked at various HP "Z-boxes" (Z3816, Z3815, Z3801, Z3805) and the
> Trimble Thunderbolt receiver.  All of these seem to be in the $200-$500
> range I'm targeting, but it's not clear what the differences are.  I've
> read the Thunderbolt is an older design with fewer channels, but I don't
> know if that's really a problem for my intended use.
>
> I've also seen many rubidium devices on eBay, most seem to have been
> removed from CDMA cell tower service.  Does anyone here have any experience
> with such devices, are the ex-cell-tower units any good?  I have read that
> a rubidium standard's short-term stability is not as good as a GPSDO, and
> that they're mainly used for holdover - is my understanding correct?  My
> thought is to (eventually) use a rubidium device to stabilize a GPSDO
> should the receiver lose satellite signal.
>
> Thank you in advance for any advice!
>
> -Robert
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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