Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
Hi Pete... TAPR doesn't really discontinue things until we've sold out the quantity we've built. Sometimes that is 100pieces, sometimes 500. It all depends on how many we think we can sell when the kit comes out. If we sell out and still see a lot of interest, we may do a second build. The Clock-Block has been around for a few years and took a couple of years to sell out. >From Tom Holmes, N8ZM > On Oct 9, 2018, at 1:25 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > > I just wish the tapr would not discontinue things so fast it seems once you > see it mentioned it's discontinued > >> On Sun, Sep 30, 2018, 1:08 PM Bob kb8tq wrote: >> >> Hi >> >> If (as originally specified) noise and jitter are not a big deal - there >> are a lot >> of chips out there like the ICS570. They are designed to do weird ratio >> frequency >> conversions so 10 to 12 or 10 to 16 are trivial for them. The Clockblock >> board was >> one way to get it all put together. >> >> Bob >> >>> On Sep 30, 2018, at 12:05 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote: >>> >>> Am 30.09.2018 um 16:49 schrieb Attila Kinali: The simplest way I can think of is the following: Use a 74LV8154 to divide the 10MHz down to 152.587890625Hz. Use the capture timer unit of the uC to measure the phase of the pulse. Use any kind of DAC (internal, external, PWM,...) to steer the 16MHz VCO. Depending on how fast the timer unit runs, this will give you something in the order of 10-200ns dead-band. By choosing the right frequency for the timer unit, one can get it to "dither" a bit and then use averaging. For lower jitter, use one half of a Nutt interpolator to get the timing difference between the 152Hz signal and the 16MHz (ie similar to what the SRS FS740 does). Use something akin Nick Sayer's time-to-amplitude converter for the fine measurement. Same works equally well for 12MHz. >>> >>> Wow. That's truly a Rube Goldberg design. >>> >>> There is a simpler way. IDT ICS570. Digikey 800-1073-5-ND >>> >>> Solder time less than 10 minutes. >>> I had the 3V3-Version in the parts drawers, officially it takes the 5V >>> version to generate the 160 MHz, but the 3V3 version happened to work, >> too. >>> The difference between 120 and 160 MHz is just a GND wire on pin 6 (vs. >> open) >>> >>> Divide by 10 is left as an exercise. >>> >>> regards, >>> Gerhard >>> >>> (But then, some like to build and tune multiplier chains and mixers.) >>> >>> >> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
Hi Pete -- TAPR did one production run of the ClockBlock at the beginning of 2007, building 100 units, and they were available until all were sold (which IIRC took a couple of years). I'm not sure if we ever looked at doing a second run, but I seem to remember that one of the components became either obsolete or crazy expensive. But this is a good chance to describe how TAPR handles product manufacture. We think of ourselves mainly as an R organization making stuff that's not available elsewhere. We're a volunteer, non-profit, group and the up-front cost to get a bunch of boards assembled is a major hit to our bank account. We can't afford to build units that will sit in inventory for years. (This discussion is mainly about assembled products; the sunk cost for kits is usually much lower.) So, our usual approach is to do one manufacturing run of a quantity we are pretty sure will sell out quickly. It's usually not cost-effective to build less than 50 units, and the per-unit cost drops dramatically as you increase to 100 or 200 pieces. We do our best to balance unit cost, upfront cost, and expected sales in a way that's prudent based on our resources. We normally don't expect to do a second manufacturing run, as the first run usually consumes most of the demand. If we place a second order for a smaller quantity, the unit cost goes up and we would have to increase price accordingly. If we do a larger order, we risk turning our limited cash into aging inventory. There are some cases where the demand justified a second run -- for example the TICC, where virtually all the units were pre-sold and we felt comfortable getting a second batch. But our niche market is small enough that in most cases one run is enough to saturate it. I believe we have some bare ClockBlock PCBs available; if you're interested in rolling your own unit, contact me off-line and I'll see what we can do. John On 10/09/2018 01:25 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: I just wish the tapr would not discontinue things so fast it seems once you see it mentioned it's discontinued On Sun, Sep 30, 2018, 1:08 PM Bob kb8tq wrote: Hi If (as originally specified) noise and jitter are not a big deal - there are a lot of chips out there like the ICS570. They are designed to do weird ratio frequency conversions so 10 to 12 or 10 to 16 are trivial for them. The Clockblock board was one way to get it all put together. Bob On Sep 30, 2018, at 12:05 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote: Am 30.09.2018 um 16:49 schrieb Attila Kinali: The simplest way I can think of is the following: Use a 74LV8154 to divide the 10MHz down to 152.587890625Hz. Use the capture timer unit of the uC to measure the phase of the pulse. Use any kind of DAC (internal, external, PWM,...) to steer the 16MHz VCO. Depending on how fast the timer unit runs, this will give you something in the order of 10-200ns dead-band. By choosing the right frequency for the timer unit, one can get it to "dither" a bit and then use averaging. For lower jitter, use one half of a Nutt interpolator to get the timing difference between the 152Hz signal and the 16MHz (ie similar to what the SRS FS740 does). Use something akin Nick Sayer's time-to-amplitude converter for the fine measurement. Same works equally well for 12MHz. Wow. That's truly a Rube Goldberg design. There is a simpler way. IDT ICS570. Digikey 800-1073-5-ND Solder time less than 10 minutes. I had the 3V3-Version in the parts drawers, officially it takes the 5V version to generate the 160 MHz, but the 3V3 version happened to work, too. The difference between 120 and 160 MHz is just a GND wire on pin 6 (vs. open) Divide by 10 is left as an exercise. regards, Gerhard (But then, some like to build and tune multiplier chains and mixers.) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
I just wish the tapr would not discontinue things so fast it seems once you see it mentioned it's discontinued On Sun, Sep 30, 2018, 1:08 PM Bob kb8tq wrote: > Hi > > If (as originally specified) noise and jitter are not a big deal - there > are a lot > of chips out there like the ICS570. They are designed to do weird ratio > frequency > conversions so 10 to 12 or 10 to 16 are trivial for them. The Clockblock > board was > one way to get it all put together. > > Bob > > > On Sep 30, 2018, at 12:05 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote: > > > > > > Am 30.09.2018 um 16:49 schrieb Attila Kinali: > > > >> The simplest way I can think of is the following: > >> Use a 74LV8154 to divide the 10MHz down to 152.587890625Hz. > >> Use the capture timer unit of the uC to measure the phase of the > >> pulse. Use any kind of DAC (internal, external, PWM,...) to steer > >> the 16MHz VCO. Depending on how fast the timer unit runs, this > >> will give you something in the order of 10-200ns dead-band. > >> By choosing the right frequency for the timer unit, one can > >> get it to "dither" a bit and then use averaging. > >> > >> For lower jitter, use one half of a Nutt interpolator > >> to get the timing difference between the 152Hz signal > >> and the 16MHz (ie similar to what the SRS FS740 does). > >> Use something akin Nick Sayer's time-to-amplitude converter > >> for the fine measurement. > >> > >> Same works equally well for 12MHz. > >> > >> > > > > Wow. That's truly a Rube Goldberg design. > > > > There is a simpler way. IDT ICS570. Digikey 800-1073-5-ND > > > > Solder time less than 10 minutes. > > I had the 3V3-Version in the parts drawers, officially it takes the 5V > > version to generate the 160 MHz, but the 3V3 version happened to work, > too. > > The difference between 120 and 160 MHz is just a GND wire on pin 6 (vs. > open) > > > > Divide by 10 is left as an exercise. > > > > regards, > > Gerhard > > > > (But then, some like to build and tune multiplier chains and mixers.) > > > > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
Brian There are 2 parallel feedback paths one tuned to 6MHz and the other tuned to 16MHz. They can either share the same amp or use separate amplifiers. There's a NIST paper on using them to divide by factors other than 2 (e.g. 3, 5 etc). https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1890.pdf Bruce > On 04 October 2018 at 00:54 "Brian, WA1ZMS" wrote: > > > Bruce- > > Does such a dual conjugate regen divider use a single mixer with the BPFs in > parallel? Or are there multiple loops? I'm trying to visualize the > topology. > > I've built a few divide-by-2 regen dividers (both worked very well) but > nothing else. > > -Brian > > > > On Sep 30, 2018, at 4:25 PM, Bruce Griffiths > > wrote: > > > > A low phase noise method is to use a dual conjugate regenerative divider > > with 6MHz and 16Mhz bandpass filters in the feedback loop to produce 16Mhz > > output. > > > > For 12MHz output use 2MHz and 12MHz bandpass filters in the feedback loop. > > > > Bruce > >> On 01 October 2018 at 09:05 Bob kb8tq wrote: > >> > >> > >> Hi > >> > >> If (as originally specified) noise and jitter are not a big deal - there > >> are a lot > >> of chips out there like the ICS570. They are designed to do weird ratio > >> frequency > >> conversions so 10 to 12 or 10 to 16 are trivial for them. The Clockblock > >> board was > >> one way to get it all put together. > >> > >> Bob > >> > >>> On Sep 30, 2018, at 12:05 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote: > >>> > >>> > Am 30.09.2018 um 16:49 schrieb Attila Kinali: > > The simplest way I can think of is the following: > Use a 74LV8154 to divide the 10MHz down to 152.587890625Hz. > Use the capture timer unit of the uC to measure the phase of the > pulse. Use any kind of DAC (internal, external, PWM,...) to steer > the 16MHz VCO. Depending on how fast the timer unit runs, this > will give you something in the order of 10-200ns dead-band. > By choosing the right frequency for the timer unit, one can > get it to "dither" a bit and then use averaging. > > For lower jitter, use one half of a Nutt interpolator > to get the timing difference between the 152Hz signal > and the 16MHz (ie similar to what the SRS FS740 does). > Use something akin Nick Sayer's time-to-amplitude converter > for the fine measurement. > > Same works equally well for 12MHz. > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
Hi Brian, The typical ones have two amplifier chains in parallel and one mixer. You take the output from the amplifier branch of your liking. The hard part is to tune them to run in synchronous mode and ensure they stay there, or else there is a beat pattern causing excessive jitter over that of the synchronous mode. Cheers, Magnus On 10/3/18 1:54 PM, Brian, WA1ZMS wrote: > Bruce- > > Does such a dual conjugate regen divider use a single mixer with the BPFs in > parallel? Or are there multiple loops? I'm trying to visualize the > topology. > > I've built a few divide-by-2 regen dividers (both worked very well) but > nothing else. > > -Brian > > >> On Sep 30, 2018, at 4:25 PM, Bruce Griffiths >> wrote: >> >> A low phase noise method is to use a dual conjugate regenerative divider >> with 6MHz and 16Mhz bandpass filters in the feedback loop to produce 16Mhz >> output. >> >> For 12MHz output use 2MHz and 12MHz bandpass filters in the feedback loop. >> >> Bruce >>> On 01 October 2018 at 09:05 Bob kb8tq wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi >>> >>> If (as originally specified) noise and jitter are not a big deal - there >>> are a lot >>> of chips out there like the ICS570. They are designed to do weird ratio >>> frequency >>> conversions so 10 to 12 or 10 to 16 are trivial for them. The Clockblock >>> board was >>> one way to get it all put together. >>> >>> Bob >>> On Sep 30, 2018, at 12:05 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote: > Am 30.09.2018 um 16:49 schrieb Attila Kinali: > > The simplest way I can think of is the following: > Use a 74LV8154 to divide the 10MHz down to 152.587890625Hz. > Use the capture timer unit of the uC to measure the phase of the > pulse. Use any kind of DAC (internal, external, PWM,...) to steer > the 16MHz VCO. Depending on how fast the timer unit runs, this > will give you something in the order of 10-200ns dead-band. > By choosing the right frequency for the timer unit, one can > get it to "dither" a bit and then use averaging. > > For lower jitter, use one half of a Nutt interpolator > to get the timing difference between the 152Hz signal > and the 16MHz (ie similar to what the SRS FS740 does). > Use something akin Nick Sayer's time-to-amplitude converter > for the fine measurement. > > Same works equally well for 12MHz. > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
Bruce- Does such a dual conjugate regen divider use a single mixer with the BPFs in parallel? Or are there multiple loops? I'm trying to visualize the topology. I've built a few divide-by-2 regen dividers (both worked very well) but nothing else. -Brian > On Sep 30, 2018, at 4:25 PM, Bruce Griffiths > wrote: > > A low phase noise method is to use a dual conjugate regenerative divider with > 6MHz and 16Mhz bandpass filters in the feedback loop to produce 16Mhz output. > > For 12MHz output use 2MHz and 12MHz bandpass filters in the feedback loop. > > Bruce >> On 01 October 2018 at 09:05 Bob kb8tq wrote: >> >> >> Hi >> >> If (as originally specified) noise and jitter are not a big deal - there are >> a lot >> of chips out there like the ICS570. They are designed to do weird ratio >> frequency >> conversions so 10 to 12 or 10 to 16 are trivial for them. The Clockblock >> board was >> one way to get it all put together. >> >> Bob >> >>> On Sep 30, 2018, at 12:05 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote: >>> >>> Am 30.09.2018 um 16:49 schrieb Attila Kinali: The simplest way I can think of is the following: Use a 74LV8154 to divide the 10MHz down to 152.587890625Hz. Use the capture timer unit of the uC to measure the phase of the pulse. Use any kind of DAC (internal, external, PWM,...) to steer the 16MHz VCO. Depending on how fast the timer unit runs, this will give you something in the order of 10-200ns dead-band. By choosing the right frequency for the timer unit, one can get it to "dither" a bit and then use averaging. For lower jitter, use one half of a Nutt interpolator to get the timing difference between the 152Hz signal and the 16MHz (ie similar to what the SRS FS740 does). Use something akin Nick Sayer's time-to-amplitude converter for the fine measurement. Same works equally well for 12MHz. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
On 10/1/2018 9:01 AM, ew via time-nuts wrote: I made a mistake in the previous post we use the ICS 570 with very good results in many applications. So it was easy to test. This has to be the easiest and lowest cost circuit. Start with an AC14 ST, followed by a divide by 5. I used part of a HC390 but a LS 90 will do. Take the 2 MHz output feed the input of the 570 and select 16X out comes 32 and 16 MHz. Material cost less than $ 5 regulator included. Bert Kehren The big advantage of the ICS570 vs 99% of the other solutions is that it does not require a microcontroller to baby sit it. For a quick and easy solution, that aspect trumps everything else. At least for me. I took 1 course in Fortran 50 years ago, and that was the extent of my software education. During my whole career, I have too busy being well paid to design hardware, to have any time left over to learn software. After Fortran was over, there was the Pascal fad, then the C fad, etc, now I guess Python is the latest. Never got involved in any of that. Rick N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
I made a mistake in the previous post we use the ICS 570 with very good results in many applications. So it was easy to test. This has to be the easiest and lowest cost circuit. Start with an AC14 ST, followed by a divide by 5. I used part of a HC390 but a LS 90 will do. Take the 2 MHz output feed the input of the 570 and select 16X out comes 32 and 16 MHz. Material cost less than $ 5 regulator included. Bert Kehren In a message dated 10/1/2018 11:32:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, time-nuts@lists.febo.com writes: Moot point with free running clock oscillators in the digitising soundcards often used. Some of the all in one cards with fast A/D's andFPGA's etc can take an external frequency reference. Some "adjustment" of the data can be done in software, to calibrate thefrequency domain. Smoke and mirrors! But yes, good point. Dave B. PS: Thanks to whoever mentioned the ICS525 or 527 IC's. Oddly, I'd notcome across that family of chips before. I'm currently messing with anold-school MC145151 PLL chip, to lock a 20.48MHz VCXO to 10MHz. I"abuse" the IC by swapping the reference and VCXO inputs to get theneeded division ratios (for an 80kHz phase comparison frequency.) That and referencing the tuning diode from the +supply so the looptuning is the right way around seems to work scarily well. The ICS525 would be a better bet perhaps, if I had to manufacture dozensof the things. However, making PCB's is an issue for me (no creationfacilities nor experience with the needed layout software) so "dead bug"construction is the way at the moment! Fun times... >><< On 30/09/18 17:00, time-nuts-requ...@lists.febo.com wrote:> From: Pete Lancashire >>> It surprises me how the SDR designers in 90% of the cases don't even allow> for an external clock. It's like accuracy never came into thought. -- Created on and sent from a Unix like PC running and using free and open source software.:: ___time-nuts mailing list -- time-n...@lists.febo.comTo unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.comand follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
Moot point with free running clock oscillators in the digitising sound cards often used. Some of the all in one cards with fast A/D's and FPGA's etc can take an external frequency reference. Some "adjustment" of the data can be done in software, to calibrate the frequency domain. Smoke and mirrors! But yes, good point. Dave B. PS: Thanks to whoever mentioned the ICS525 or 527 IC's. Oddly, I'd not come across that family of chips before. I'm currently messing with an old-school MC145151 PLL chip, to lock a 20.48MHz VCXO to 10MHz. I "abuse" the IC by swapping the reference and VCXO inputs to get the needed division ratios (for an 80kHz phase comparison frequency.) That and referencing the tuning diode from the +supply so the loop tuning is the right way around seems to work scarily well. The ICS525 would be a better bet perhaps, if I had to manufacture dozens of the things. However, making PCB's is an issue for me (no creation facilities nor experience with the needed layout software) so "dead bug" construction is the way at the moment! Fun times... >><< On 30/09/18 17:00, time-nuts-requ...@lists.febo.com wrote: > From: Pete Lancashire > > > It surprises me how the SDR designers in 90% of the cases don't even allow > for an external clock. It's like accuracy never came into thought. -- Created on and sent from a Unix like PC running and using free and open source software. :: ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
Am 01.10.2018 um 03:01 schrieb Arthur Dent: Oops, I meant divide by 5 to get 2 followed by 8x NB3N511 work? ___ That should work, also for the 12 MHz case with 6x instead of 8x. But it still needs a second divider chip like the solution I built this afternoon. Somewhere, there must exist a single chip SO-8 solution. :-) cheers, Gerhard ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
Arthur that is a very attractive answer. I had never heard of the chip before surely looks simple enough. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 8:45 PM Arthur Dent wrote: > Would a divide by 2 followed by a NB3N511 work? > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
Hi, There is clearly enough clock chips today that would fit the bill and probably provide good enough jitter for you to operate it safely. Look at products like this: https://www.silabs.com/products/timing/clocks/general-purpose-clock-generators There is more of them as you look around. Then, also consider classic mixer-approach, which may be workable or not for you: Square the 10 MHz, feed into a tuned tank for 30 MHz, amplify and square, divide by 5, mix produced 6 MHz with 10 MHz and amplify into a tuned tank at 16 MHz, buffer and square as needed for output. However, for the application at hand I would look at the modern clock generator chips that has come a long way. Their relatively low noise is due to their GHz CMOS oscillators and relatively quiet dividers. The setup gives a relatively good flexibility. Fractional divisors has come a long way to solve more problems. You get more than the real-estate of one of the surface mounted DBM mixers would provide you. It's when you want to go to very low noise that you would consider another approach. Then again, I would enjoy the challenge of the mixer approach. So choose method based on what is most rewarding, but for simplicity the clock chips seems like a good go, so there it is more about locating a cheap board with the right chip on it. Cheers, Magnus On 9/30/18 5:57 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote: > What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out of 10 > MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't need to be > sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count accuracy. This is > for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz Rb/Cs/GPSDO. 10 MHz input > is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v CMOS. > > Thanks, > /tvb > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
A low phase noise method is to use a dual conjugate regenerative divider with 6MHz and 16Mhz bandpass filters in the feedback loop to produce 16Mhz output. For 12MHz output use 2MHz and 12MHz bandpass filters in the feedback loop. Bruce > On 01 October 2018 at 09:05 Bob kb8tq wrote: > > > Hi > > If (as originally specified) noise and jitter are not a big deal - there are > a lot > of chips out there like the ICS570. They are designed to do weird ratio > frequency > conversions so 10 to 12 or 10 to 16 are trivial for them. The Clockblock > board was > one way to get it all put together. > > Bob > > > On Sep 30, 2018, at 12:05 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote: > > > > > > Am 30.09.2018 um 16:49 schrieb Attila Kinali: > > > >> The simplest way I can think of is the following: > >> Use a 74LV8154 to divide the 10MHz down to 152.587890625Hz. > >> Use the capture timer unit of the uC to measure the phase of the > >> pulse. Use any kind of DAC (internal, external, PWM,...) to steer > >> the 16MHz VCO. Depending on how fast the timer unit runs, this > >> will give you something in the order of 10-200ns dead-band. > >> By choosing the right frequency for the timer unit, one can > >> get it to "dither" a bit and then use averaging. > >> > >> For lower jitter, use one half of a Nutt interpolator > >> to get the timing difference between the 152Hz signal > >> and the 16MHz (ie similar to what the SRS FS740 does). > >> Use something akin Nick Sayer's time-to-amplitude converter > >> for the fine measurement. > >> > >> Same works equally well for 12MHz. > >> > >> > > > > Wow. That's truly a Rube Goldberg design. > > > > There is a simpler way. IDT ICS570. Digikey 800-1073-5-ND > > > > Solder time less than 10 minutes. > > I had the 3V3-Version in the parts drawers, officially it takes the 5V > > version to generate the 160 MHz, but the 3V3 version happened to work, too. > > The difference between 120 and 160 MHz is just a GND wire on pin 6 (vs. > > open) > > > > Divide by 10 is left as an exercise. > > > > regards, > > Gerhard > > > > (But then, some like to build and tune multiplier chains and mixers.) > > > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
Hi If (as originally specified) noise and jitter are not a big deal - there are a lot of chips out there like the ICS570. They are designed to do weird ratio frequency conversions so 10 to 12 or 10 to 16 are trivial for them. The Clockblock board was one way to get it all put together. Bob > On Sep 30, 2018, at 12:05 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote: > > > Am 30.09.2018 um 16:49 schrieb Attila Kinali: > >> The simplest way I can think of is the following: >> Use a 74LV8154 to divide the 10MHz down to 152.587890625Hz. >> Use the capture timer unit of the uC to measure the phase of the >> pulse. Use any kind of DAC (internal, external, PWM,...) to steer >> the 16MHz VCO. Depending on how fast the timer unit runs, this >> will give you something in the order of 10-200ns dead-band. >> By choosing the right frequency for the timer unit, one can >> get it to "dither" a bit and then use averaging. >> >> For lower jitter, use one half of a Nutt interpolator >> to get the timing difference between the 152Hz signal >> and the 16MHz (ie similar to what the SRS FS740 does). >> Use something akin Nick Sayer's time-to-amplitude converter >> for the fine measurement. >> >> Same works equally well for 12MHz. >> >> > > Wow. That's truly a Rube Goldberg design. > > There is a simpler way. IDT ICS570. Digikey 800-1073-5-ND > > Solder time less than 10 minutes. > I had the 3V3-Version in the parts drawers, officially it takes the 5V > version to generate the 160 MHz, but the 3V3 version happened to work, too. > The difference between 120 and 160 MHz is just a GND wire on pin 6 (vs. open) > > Divide by 10 is left as an exercise. > > regards, > Gerhard > > (But then, some like to build and tune multiplier chains and mixers.) > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
I agree with Alex - injection-locking would be the simplest of all, if the slight correction signal added every 16 cycles is acceptable. Ed ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
On Sun, 30 Sep 2018 19:05:16 +0200 Gerhard Hoffmann wrote: > Wow. That's truly a Rube Goldberg design. You are right, one can do it simpler, in a single chip: Take a uC (STM32F030 comes to mind), use its PLL, VCO and clock output to do the heavy lifting. No external components (beside a few capacitors) required. As the CPU itself and all the peripherals are not used, one can do other shenanigans with them, like playing the imperial march on a floppy drive. Attila Kinali -- The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates throw DARK chocolate at you. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 20:57:14 -0700 "Tom Van Baak" wrote: > What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out of > 10 MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't need > to be sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count accuracy. > This is for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz Rb/Cs/GPSDO. > 10 MHz input is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v CMOS. The simplest way I can think of is the following: Use a 74LV8154 to divide the 10MHz down to 152.587890625Hz. Use the capture timer unit of the uC to measure the phase of the pulse. Use any kind of DAC (internal, external, PWM,...) to steer the 16MHz VCO. Depending on how fast the timer unit runs, this will give you something in the order of 10-200ns dead-band. By choosing the right frequency for the timer unit, one can get it to "dither" a bit and then use averaging. For lower jitter, use one half of a Nutt interpolator to get the timing difference between the 152Hz signal and the 16MHz (ie similar to what the SRS FS740 does). Use something akin Nick Sayer's time-to-amplitude converter for the fine measurement. Same works equally well for 12MHz. Attila Kinali -- The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates throw DARK chocolate at you. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
Almost same answer as I gave Tom. Double to 20, divide by 10, and then mix the 2 with the original 10, You could also just divide by 5 and then mix that 2 with the original 10. Again, filtering required. 73 - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell NJ 07731 848-245-9115 -Original Message- From: time-nuts On Behalf Of Pete Lancashire Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2018 9:45 AM To: Tom Van Baak ; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz Same question 10 to 12:-) On Sat, Sep 29, 2018, 8:58 PM Tom Van Baak < <mailto:t...@leapsecond.com> t...@leapsecond.com> wrote: > What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out > of > 1Almost 0 MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't > need to be sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count accuracy. > This is for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz > Rb/Cs/GPSDO. 10 MHz input is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v CMOS. > > Thanks, > /tvb > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- <mailto:time-nuts@lists.febo.com> time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go > to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- <mailto:time-nuts@lists.febo.com> time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
Am 30.09.2018 um 15:44 schrieb Pete Lancashire: Same question 10 to 12:-) Same Answer. Select pins = (1, 1, 0) for 12 instead of (1, 1, 1) for 16. \Gerhard ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
The clockblock could do that, or probably any of the newer synth chips. Phase noise and jitter are lousy of course. On Sep 29, 2018, 11:58 PM, at 11:58 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: >What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out >of 10 MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't >need to be sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count >accuracy. This is for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz >Rb/Cs/GPSDO. 10 MHz input is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v >CMOS. > >Thanks, >/tvb > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to >http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
Ingrid clicked through the "you might find that useful too" - list and stumbled across this: < https://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/adafruit-industries-llc/2045/1528-1206-ND/5353666 > \Gerhard ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
Am 30.09.2018 um 06:15 schrieb Hal Murray: What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out of 10 MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't need to be sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count accuracy. This is for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz Rb/Cs/GPSDO. 10 MHz input is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v CMOS. There should be a PLL chip that includes the M and N dividers, but I'm not familiar with that area. Use this for f * 16: < https://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/on-semiconductor/NB3N3020DTG/NB3N3020DTGOS-ND/2003319 > and a 74LVC for / 10. The NB3N3020 could do *1.6 directly, but only for input frequency > 25 MHz. regards, Gerhard ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
On 09/30/2018 05:57 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote: > What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out of 10 > MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't need to be > sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count accuracy. This is > for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz Rb/Cs/GPSDO. 10 MHz input > is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v CMOS. > > Thanks, > /tvb When I have needed this, it has been for microcontrollers. I have let the microcontroller do the locking, with 10MHz applied directly to an input pin: I run a reasonably fast* interrupt. Once inside the interrupt, I read the current timer value, and read the port 8 times into registers. This gives me 8 samples spaced 45 degrees apart on the 10MHz input, which are then converted to a 8-bit field. That 8-bit value is then used in a lookup table, which outputs a phase value. This is compensated by what was read from the timer (how late we got into the interrupt). The phase error is then accumulated, and drives a PWM DAC, connected to a varactor on the crystal. It adds 3 external components in total, and for an annoying case like 8/5, it may well wobble 90 degrees. It started with this Christmas-vacation experiment I never really finished: https://n1.taur.dk/permanent/synth_v2.pdf /Kasper Pedersen *) oscillator_frequency * max_xtal_deviation * 4, typically 16kHz or so. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
We use the ICS527 for many applications easy to get 80 or 160 MHz. in non critical applications I use an AC14. Have a small board, 14 and ISC only if interested have to look for it it is pre relocation. Juerg may also have one. Corby uses it in his latest HP5065 tests along with a AD9850 DDS.Bert Kehren In a message dated 9/30/2018 2:00:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, michael.c...@sfr.fr writes: How about an ICS525 or ICS527. IDT’s calculator allows a 0 ppm frequency error. You would need a sine-square converter for input. > Le 30 sept. 2018 à 05:57, Tom Van Baak a écrit : > > What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out of 10 > MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't need to be > sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count accuracy. This is > for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz Rb/Cs/GPSDO. 10 MHz input > is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v CMOS. > > Thanks, > /tvb > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. People have only as much liberty as they have the intelligence to want and the courage to take. Emma Goldman ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
Tom, Divide the 10 MHz down to 2 MHz in the usual way, then multiply by 8 with a cascade of three analog freq doublers separated by fairly narrow bandpass filters. Caveats: Would need four filters total along the path to get rid of unwanted frequency components, gain distributed along the path to keep the signal level high enough to satisfy the doublers, and might suffer excessive phase drift due to temperature changes of the filters (and probably to a lesser extent) the doublers themselves. You didn't mention phase stability requirements... Freq doublers based on mixers or on full-wave rectification have the pleasant property of having *most* of their output power in the proper harmonic order, but require sinusoidal drives to work. An unfiltered digital drive signal won't suffice here. Dana On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 10:58 PM Tom Van Baak wrote: > What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out of > 10 MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't need to > be sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count accuracy. > This is for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz Rb/Cs/GPSDO. 10 > MHz input is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v CMOS. > > Thanks, > /tvb > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
On Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 5:58 AM Tom Van Baak wrote: > > What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out of 10 > MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't need to be > sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count accuracy. This is > for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz Rb/Cs/GPSDO. 10 MHz input > is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v CMOS. > > Thanks, > /tvb I would square the sine (like HP single BJT or double BJT squarers), divide by 5 with any 74XX290 or xx390, then multiply by two three times using 74XX86 XORs with one input delayed by two inverters. You would need to play with the last inverters delay if your microcontroller needs a symmetric clock Frank ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
Simple 100 kHz ref frequency PLL (like old cmos series) with 16 MHz VCXO ( very simple 16MHz xtal with varicap arrangement). All parts in the ordinary spare generic stuff drawer.. Il domenica 30 settembre 2018, Bruce Griffiths ha scritto: > Full wave rectify the sinewave input, extract the 8th Harmonic with a > passive filter. > Drive the input of a divide by 5 circuit via a suitable impedance > converter network. > Could even use a CMOS 74XX74 flipflop plus a few passive components as the > divider. > > Bruce > > > On 30 September 2018 at 16:57 Tom Van Baak wrote: > > > > > > What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out of > 10 MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't need to > be sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count accuracy. > This is for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz Rb/Cs/GPSDO. 10 > MHz input is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v CMOS. > > > > Thanks, > > /tvb > > > > > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
How about three doublers: 10 MHz -> 20 -> 40 -> 80 MHz and then divide by 5 -> 16 MHz? Jeremy N6WFO On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 9:17 PM Hal Murray wrote: > > > > What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out of 10 > > MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't need to be > > sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count accuracy. This > > is > > for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz Rb/Cs/GPSDO. 10 MHz input > > is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v CMOS. > > There should be a PLL chip that includes the M and N dividers, but I'm not > familiar with that area. > > Some/many ARM chips include PLLs so you can use a convenient Xtal and run the > CPU at a higher speed. You might look for low cost break out boards for an > SoC ARM. Remove their Xtal, feed your 10 MHz into the right pad. Program it > to setup one of the counter/timers to do the right divide. > > > -- > These are my opinions. I hate spam. > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz
> What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out of 10 > MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't need to be > sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count accuracy. This is > for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz Rb/Cs/GPSDO. 10 MHz input > is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v CMOS. There should be a PLL chip that includes the M and N dividers, but I'm not familiar with that area. Some/many ARM chips include PLLs so you can use a convenient Xtal and run the CPU at a higher speed. You might look for low cost break out boards for an SoC ARM. Remove their Xtal, feed your 10 MHz into the right pad. Program it to setup one of the counter/timers to do the right divide. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
