RE: [tips] gender versus sex
I really don't understand the reaction to this simple request concerning appropriate terminology regarding sex and gender. It's almost as if no one replying on the thread actually read Marte's initial request and the later clarification (see included posts below). I am sorry Marte felt the need to justify the study described. First, this is an established line of research. Search gaydar in PsycINFO and you will get a number of hits including articles in Science and the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology. I am sure there are many other sources that don't use this pop terminology. Inferences people make about sexual orientation can have relevance to evolutionary psychology and even how gay men and lesbian women might identify available partners in a society that encourages concealment of their orientation. It could also be related to the study of bullying of LGBT youth. What business do they have studying this? They are doing science. Second, investigating a phenomenon in no way validates the phenomenon under study. Do those who study racial prejudice have to answer questions about why they should study how people develop stereotypes? Are those studying cognitive biases subjected to harrassment about the stupidity of cognitive biases? "They aren't reasonable so how can they be a valid subject of study?" Third, to return to the original request, it seems this is a case of inferring sex in order to determine sexual orientation. Since the objects of study would be trying to infer orientation from behaviors (and schema about how those behaviors would match orientation) and not brainscans, it would seem gender would also be relevant. Rick Dr. Rick Froman, Chair Division of Humanities and Social Sciences John Brown University Siloam Springs, AR 72761 rfro...@jbu.edu From: Marte Fallshore [mailto:ma...@cwu.edu] Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 12:16 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] gender versus sex I guess I need to clarify. The study is looking at factors that may impact one's judgement regarding another's sexual orientation. Of course it is nobody's business, but many people do it anyway. We also realize this varies by country (& even region), but the research is US-bound. The student researcher is interested in understanding factors that may lead to gay hate crimes so we may better educate people. In this particular section of her paper, she is explaining why, for those people who want to 'assign' sexual orientation to others, they must first determine the actual sex/gender of the couple they are judging. My question is, which word is more accurate in this discussion. I am certainly NOT condoning people who want/need to know one's sexuality (having a unisex name and a partner with a unisex name, I actually work hard NOT to let on what my sexual orientation is to my students just to keep them on their toes). The fact is, people assign sexual orientation (rightly or wrongly) and the purpose of this research is understanding and education. I hope this clarifies why the question. If not, I apologise. Regards, Marte >>> "Dr. Bob Wildblood" mailto:drb...@rcn.com>> 01/26/12 3:56 >>> PM >>> You aren't talking about sex or gender, you are talking about sexual orientation, and whose business is that anyway? Original message ---- >Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:35:02 -0800 >From: Marte Fallshore mailto:ma...@cwu.edu>> >Subject: [tips] gender versus sex >To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" >mailto:tips@fsulist.frostburg.edu>> > > Some colleagues and I are having a discussion about > when it is appropriate to use the terms gender and > sex. The issue is around a paper by a student where > they are pointing out that in order to determine > someone's sexual orientation, you need to determine > their sex/gender. For example, if you see a couple > holding hands and one is a man and the other is a > woman, you would probably infer that it is a > heterosexual couple. On the other hand, if you > determine that both are men (or both women) you > would probably infer that they are a homosexual > couple. The question is, are you determining sex or > gender? We can't find anything on this issue on the > APA website, and, of course, the manual simply > points out that gender is socially constructed and > sex is biological. > > Thanks, > > Marte > --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=15781 or send a blank email to leave-15781-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
RE: [tips] gender versus sex
Well, as long as we're dragging the Supreme Court into this discussion, I would suggest that we scrap the sex/gender terms and use instead conventions that Gore Vidal developed for certain words in his novel "Myron" (a sequel to his novel "Myra Breckinridge"). According to this scheme, we would refer to men as "rehnquists" and women as "whizzer whites". And if you don't like that suggestion, then you can burger yourself in the blackmum. ;-) See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myron_%28novel%29 By the way, I think the Myra/Myron Breckinridge case illustrates how foolish some of the word conventions are. And inferring sexual orientation of people can also be a foolish activity as revealed by, say, Rock Hudson and other actors who are non-obviously gay or bisexual. Getting back to the original question, it might be best to think of inferring/attributing sexual orientation as an instance of the representativeness heuristic in which a stereotypical gay/lesbian is used to predict orientation. The role of false positives and false negatives (including the role of "wide stances") might also be discussed. -Mike Palij New York University m...@nyu.edu --- Original Message -- On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:53:40 -0800, Karl L Wuensch wrote: Biological sex is generally defined in terms of the gametes - males produce many of the small ones, females few of the large ones. Accordingly, your student needs to be prepared to gather gametes. Or you could just ask and trust. For gender (sexual identity) , ask and trust may be the only option. ?? Does "gay" refer to SEXUAL orientation? If so, then gender is irrelevant, isn't it? If the relationship is between two sperm producers or two egg producers, it is homosexual, even if one had male gender and the other female gender, eh? If between an egg producer and a sperm producer it is heterosexual even if one both have the same gender, eh? http://core.ecu.edu/psyc/wuenschk/docs00/Sex-Gender.htm Cheers, [Description: Karl L. Wuensch]<http://core.ecu.edu/psyc/wuenschk/klw.htm> --- om - From: Marte Fallshore [mailto:ma...@cwu.edu] Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 12:16 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] gender versus sex I guess I need to clarify. The study is looking at factors that may impact one's judgement regarding another's sexual orientation. Of course it is nobody's business, but many people do it anyway. We also realize this varies by country (& even region), but the research is US-bound. The student researcher is interested in understanding factors that may lead to gay hate crimes so we may better educate people. In this particular section of her paper, she is explaining why, for those people who want to 'assign' sexual orientation to others, they must first determine the actual sex/gender of the couple they are judging. My question is, which word is more accurate in this discussion. I am certainly NOT condoning people who want/need to know one's sexuality (having a unisex name and a partner with a unisex name, I actually work hard NOT to let on what my sexual orientation is to my students just to keep them on their toes). The fact is, people assign sexual orientation (rightly or wrongly) and the purpose of this research is understanding and education. I hope this clarifies why the question. If not, I apologise. Regards, Marte >>> "Dr. Bob Wildblood" mailto:drb...@rcn.com>> 01/26/12 3:56 >>> PM >>> You aren't talking about sex or gender, you are talking about sexual orientation, and whose business is that anyway? Original message >Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:35:02 -0800 >From: Marte Fallshore mailto:ma...@cwu.edu>> >Subject: [tips] gender versus sex >To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" >mailto:tips@fsulist.frostburg.edu>> > > Some colleagues and I are having a discussion about > when it is appropriate to use the terms gender and > sex. The issue is around a paper by a student where > they are pointing out that in order to determine > someone's sexual orientation, you need to determine > their sex/gender. For example, if you see a couple > holding hands and one is a man and the other is a > woman, you would probably infer that it is a > heterosexual couple. On the other hand, if you > determine that both are men (or both women) you > would probably infer that they are a homosexual > couple. The question is, are you determining sex or > gender? We can't find anything on this issue on the > APA website, and, of course, the manual simply > points out that gender is socially c
RE: [tips] gender versus sex
Biological sex is generally defined in terms of the gametes - males produce many of the small ones, females few of the large ones. Accordingly, your student needs to be prepared to gather gametes. Or you could just ask and trust. For gender (sexual identity) , ask and trust may be the only option. ?? Does "gay" refer to SEXUAL orientation? If so, then gender is irrelevant, isn't it? If the relationship is between two sperm producers or two egg producers, it is homosexual, even if one had male gender and the other female gender, eh? If between an egg producer and a sperm producer it is heterosexual even if one both have the same gender, eh? http://core.ecu.edu/psyc/wuenschk/docs00/Sex-Gender.htm Cheers, [Description: Karl L. Wuensch]<http://core.ecu.edu/psyc/wuenschk/klw.htm> From: Marte Fallshore [mailto:ma...@cwu.edu] Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 12:16 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] gender versus sex I guess I need to clarify. The study is looking at factors that may impact one's judgement regarding another's sexual orientation. Of course it is nobody's business, but many people do it anyway. We also realize this varies by country (& even region), but the research is US-bound. The student researcher is interested in understanding factors that may lead to gay hate crimes so we may better educate people. In this particular section of her paper, she is explaining why, for those people who want to 'assign' sexual orientation to others, they must first determine the actual sex/gender of the couple they are judging. My question is, which word is more accurate in this discussion. I am certainly NOT condoning people who want/need to know one's sexuality (having a unisex name and a partner with a unisex name, I actually work hard NOT to let on what my sexual orientation is to my students just to keep them on their toes). The fact is, people assign sexual orientation (rightly or wrongly) and the purpose of this research is understanding and education. I hope this clarifies why the question. If not, I apologise. Regards, Marte Marte Fallshore Department of Psychology Room 462 Central Washington University Ellensburg, WA 98926-7575 509/963-3670 509/963-2307 (fax) When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist. ~Dom Heider Camara I teach for free; they pay me to grade. (anon) >>> "Dr. Bob Wildblood" mailto:drb...@rcn.com>> 01/26/12 3:56 >>> PM >>> You aren't talking about sex or gender, you are talking about sexual orientation, and whose business is that anyway? Original message ---- >Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:35:02 -0800 >From: Marte Fallshore mailto:ma...@cwu.edu>> >Subject: [tips] gender versus sex >To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" >mailto:tips@fsulist.frostburg.edu>> > > Some colleagues and I are having a discussion about > when it is appropriate to use the terms gender and > sex. The issue is around a paper by a student where > they are pointing out that in order to determine > someone's sexual orientation, you need to determine > their sex/gender. For example, if you see a couple > holding hands and one is a man and the other is a > woman, you would probably infer that it is a > heterosexual couple. On the other hand, if you > determine that both are men (or both women) you > would probably infer that they are a homosexual > couple. The question is, are you determining sex or > gender? We can't find anything on this issue on the > APA website, and, of course, the manual simply > points out that gender is socially constructed and > sex is biological. > > Thanks, > > Marte > > > > Marte Fallshore > Department of Psychology > Central Washington Univ. > 400 E University Way > Ellensburg, WA 98926-7575 > > 509/963-3670 > 509/963-2307 (fax) > Room 462, Psychology Building > Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they > are not entitled to their own facts. ~Daniel Patrick > Moynihan > > When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. > When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a > communist. > ~Dom Heider Camara > > I teach for free; they pay me to grade. (anon) > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to tips as: > drb...@rcn.com<mailto:drb...@rcn.com>. > > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13185.d5346723901d967ccc167929e2ee94ad&n=T&l=tips&o=15
Re: [tips] gender versus sex
It is not so much gender vs. sex as gender roles.This is obvious in heterosexual marriages but not so obvious in Brokeback mountain relationships. Michael 'omnicentric' Sylvester,PhD --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=15694 or send a blank email to leave-15694-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] gender versus sex
I guess I need to clarify. The study is looking at factors that may impact one's judgement regarding another's sexual orientation. Of course it is nobody's business, but many people do it anyway. We also realize this varies by country (& even region), but the research is US-bound. The student researcher is interested in understanding factors that may lead to gay hate crimes so we may better educate people. In this particular section of her paper, she is explaining why, for those people who want to 'assign' sexual orientation to others, they must first determine the actual sex/gender of the couple they are judging. My question is, which word is more accurate in this discussion. I am certainly NOT condoning people who want/need to know one's sexuality (having a unisex name and a partner with a unisex name, I actually work hard NOT to let on what my sexual orientation is to my students just to keep them on their toes). The fact is, people assign sexual orientation (rightly or wrongly) and the purpose of this research is understanding and education. I hope this clarifies why the question. If not, I apologise. Regards, Marte Marte Fallshore Department of Psychology Room 462 Central Washington University Ellensburg, WA 98926-7575 509/963-3670 509/963-2307 (fax) When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist. ~Dom Heider Camara I teach for free; they pay me to grade. (anon) >>> "Dr. Bob Wildblood" 01/26/12 3:56 PM >>> You aren't talking about sex or gender, you are talking about sexual orientation, and whose business is that anyway? Original message >Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:35:02 -0800 >From: Marte Fallshore >Subject: [tips] gender versus sex >To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" > > Some colleagues and I are having a discussion about > when it is appropriate to use the terms gender and > sex. The issue is around a paper by a student where > they are pointing out that in order to determine > someone's sexual orientation, you need to determine > their sex/gender. For example, if you see a couple > holding hands and one is a man and the other is a > woman, you would probably infer that it is a > heterosexual couple. On the other hand, if you > determine that both are men (or both women) you > would probably infer that they are a homosexual > couple. The question is, are you determining sex or > gender? We can't find anything on this issue on the > APA website, and, of course, the manual simply > points out that gender is socially constructed and > sex is biological. > > Thanks, > > Marte > > > > Marte Fallshore > Department of Psychology > Central Washington Univ. > 400 E University Way > Ellensburg, WA 98926-7575 > > 509/963-3670 > 509/963-2307 (fax) > Room 462, Psychology Building > Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they > are not entitled to their own facts. ~Daniel Patrick > Moynihan > > When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. > When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a > communist. > ~Dom Heider Camara > > I teach for free; they pay me to grade. (anon) > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to tips as: > drb...@rcn.com. > > To unsubscribe click here: > > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13185.d5346723901d967ccc167929e2ee94ad&n=T&l=tips&o=15675 > > (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL > if the line is broken) > > or send a blank email to > leave-15675-13185.d5346723901d967ccc167929e2ee9...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > > > > . Robert W. Wildblood, PhD Adjunct Psychology Faculty Germanna Community College drb...@rcn.com --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: ma...@cwu.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13382.d0812edf466bc20c650b452513b583e7&n=T&l=tips&o=15678 or send a blank email to leave-15678-13382.d0812edf466bc20c650b452513b58...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=15693 or send a blank email to leave-15693-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] gender versus sex
Along the same lines as the APA, I consider the word "sex" to be appropriate when you mean "male" or "female," and "gender" to be appropriate when you mean "masculine" or "feminine." Sexual orientation is another thing entirely. In some cultures (as has been pointed out), it might be _gender_-appropriate for same-_sex_ individuals to hold hands, and yet that may have nothing to do with sexual orientation. --Kathy Morgan Wheaton College Norton, MA kmor...@wheatonma.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=15679 or send a blank email to leave-15679-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] gender versus sex
You aren't talking about sex or gender, you are talking about sexual orientation, and whose business is that anyway? Original message >Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:35:02 -0800 >From: Marte Fallshore >Subject: [tips] gender versus sex >To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" > > > Some colleagues and I are having a discussion about > when it is appropriate to use the terms gender and > sex. The issue is around a paper by a student where > they are pointing out that in order to determine > someone's sexual orientation, you need to determine > their sex/gender. For example, if you see a couple > holding hands and one is a man and the other is a > woman, you would probably infer that it is a > heterosexual couple. On the other hand, if you > determine that both are men (or both women) you > would probably infer that they are a homosexual > couple. The question is, are you determining sex or > gender? We can't find anything on this issue on the > APA website, and, of course, the manual simply > points out that gender is socially constructed and > sex is biological. > > Thanks, > > Marte > > > > Marte Fallshore > Department of Psychology > Central Washington Univ. > 400 E University Way > Ellensburg, WA 98926-7575 > > 509/963-3670 > 509/963-2307 (fax) > Room 462, Psychology Building > Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they > are not entitled to their own facts. ~Daniel Patrick > Moynihan > > When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. > When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a > communist. > ~Dom Heider Camara > > I teach for free; they pay me to grade. (anon) > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to tips as: > drb...@rcn.com. > > To unsubscribe click here: > > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13185.d5346723901d967ccc167929e2ee94ad&n=T&l=tips&o=15675 > > (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL > if the line is broken) > > or send a blank email to > leave-15675-13185.d5346723901d967ccc167929e2ee9...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > > > > . Robert W. Wildblood, PhD Adjunct Psychology Faculty Germanna Community College drb...@rcn.com --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=15678 or send a blank email to leave-15678-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] gender versus sex
The APA does discuss the distinctions in several places. Here is one: http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf Sex *is *about biology and one should not assume sexual orientation or gender identity from it. Also, in your example, the inferences "most people" would make are dependent on one's culture, e.g. two men holding hand in India. Steve Butte College Oroville, CA hal...@butte.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=15676 or send a blank email to leave-15676-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
[tips] gender versus sex
Some colleagues and I are having a discussion about when it is appropriate to use the terms gender and sex. The issue is around a paper by a student where they are pointing out that in order to determine someone's sexual orientation, you need to determine their sex/gender. For example, if you see a couple holding hands and one is a man and the other is a woman, you would probably infer that it is a heterosexual couple. On the other hand, if you determine that both are men (or both women) you would probably infer that they are a homosexual couple. The question is, are you determining sex or gender? We can't find anything on this issue on the APA website, and, of course, the manual simply points out that gender is socially constructed and sex is biological. Thanks, Marte Marte Fallshore Department of Psychology Central Washington Univ. 400 E University Way Ellensburg, WA 98926-7575 509/963-3670 509/963-2307 (fax) Room 462, Psychology Building Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts. ~Daniel Patrick Moynihan When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist. ~Dom Heider Camara I teach for free; they pay me to grade. (anon) --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=15675 or send a blank email to leave-15675-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
