RE: Why should I use Tomcat vs .NET?
Chris, Your $450 statement is not quite correct, rather $450 per desk Huge difference even for a company. What is true however, is the learning curve and most importantly the use of low grade staff as you put it. That has always been MS's key to success and that is what is needed for open systems to gain popularity among the general populus. Regards Johan Kok -Original Message- From: Walker Chris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 14 October 2003 10:59 To: 'Tomcat Users List' Subject: RE: Why should I use Tomcat vs .NET? Chuck, I agree with most of what you say except for your point about software purchase costs. While $450 is a lot for an individual to find, for a company the purchase cost of software is trivial compared to the cost of learning to use it. I don't know what contract rates are like in San Diego, but I bet it wouldn't take an employer long to burn $450. A new technology that's easy to learn is always attractive from the employers' point of view - they don't need to spend a lot on training and they can use relatively low-grade staff. That's why the appalling VB was such a success, but I don't think .NET is that easy to learn - unless you're already a Java developer! Chris -Original Message- From: Goehring, Chuck Mr., RCI - San Diego [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 October 2003 20:31 To: Tomcat Users List Subject: RE: Why should I use Tomcat vs .NET? Eduardo, A couple interesting points involves myself and my coworker. He has about ten years of VB programming experience. None of his code can be migrated to vb.net without major rewriting because there is no semblance of backward compatibility. It wouldn't be practical for the customer to pay him to convert the app to dot.net, so he's stuck in 1998. All the VB programmers have been screwed by Microsoft this way. With me, I've been doing Java and perl for about 6 years. Because of the contracting environment I'm in, it looked like my work was going to dry up. An opportunity came along for me within the company. They wanted to do ASP 2.0 web development because they had to meet a variety of government requirements and ASP had been approved for use. Thinking I was going to have to do that project, I checked into it. Firstly, the ASP code they were going to write is totally incompatible with ASP.net, so it was going down a dead path. To cover all the bases, I did some research into upgrading my copy of Visual C++ 6.0 to Visual Studio.net. MS wanted $450 for the upgrade. That's a lot for me to fork over to start over with a completely different system that has limited uses. Fortunately, I didn't have to go that route, but it came close. Comparing that to continuing with Tomcat and Eclipse or NetBeans or JCreator (free version), I can't see why anyone would choose to go the dot.net route. MS has also done a powerplay on the folks that use Frontpage Extensions. The Frontpage 200x now requires that you subscribe to a service from Microsoft to enable important features of the product. It is a lot like extortion. I like using the free products because I can dump any of them at any time without feeling guilty about wasting the company's money. Once you spend thousands to use a proprietary product, you may never be able to escape. I still have to support an ancient Developer 2000 product that can't be cost-effectively be migrated to a newer version and has all kinds of compatibility issues when used with newer products. Chuck -Original Message- From: Eduardo Vazquez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 10:48 AM To: 'Tomcat Users List' Subject: RE: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? Up front I do need to say that the support of this user group has been more than outstanding. I was a sole person looking for help and I received more than I could have expected, and for that thanks to all. Eventually I have lost the war; my CTO has decided on a new technology on his lonesome and has hinted that any effort expended moving forward won't result in any reconsideration of his decision (so much for standards and not putting all your eggs in one basket) Again, I've learned much from all those who have replied to my request and hope that others have learnt a little sumthin' along the way. Much Thanks, Eduardo -Original Message- From: epyonne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 9:26 AM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? Simple decision. If your company is a pure Microsoft shop, i.e. you use Windows desktops, Windows servers, and SQL Server databases, then it is a no-brainer, go with .NET. On the other hand, if your company has a mixed environment like ours, i.e. Windows and Linux OSs, UNIX Servers, Windows Servers, Oracle databases so on and so on. You may not want to use .NET. Microsoft
Re: Why should I use Tomcat vs .NET?
Yup. Pretty much what Dov says. Unless you are a one-man-shop, then a MSDN subscription is pretty expensive. And even then, your clients will still have to purchase licenses for any MS components that are required (since you can't (legally) redistribute what you've got from MSDN). Dov Rosenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Contrary to what you think, a MSDN subscription doesn't mean that everything is free for the company. MSDN is licensed on a per developer basis. To be in compliance with the MSDN subscription, each developer that will be using is supposed to be licensed. All of the servers included in MSDN are developer licensed servers. When you deploy a production application onto a different machine you are required to purchase the proper licensing for the products involved including SQL Server, Windows 2000/XP servers, exchange server, etc. If the product is going to be deployed on an internet server, you must purchase the appropriate unlimited use license. A properly licensed production application can easily add $20,000 to the overall project cost just using the things that come for free in a MSDN subscription. Once MSFT starts enforcing their licensing a little tighter you will suddenly see the cost/benefits of open source solutions. Dov Rosenberg On 10/13/03 6:05 PM, Richard Norman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What portions of FPSE (FrontPage Server Extensions) requires registration? I have not run into that before. So far my experience has been the oppsite. My job gets the MSDN Universal Subscription so VS is free along with all the platforms. In terms of going from ASP to ASP.NET, you have to change your thinking form the classical script and go method, to one of creating classes, methods and properties. That is the main trick I have found. Both are interesting to me (JSP and .NET) but I find that in .NET there are certain things I can get done faster (probably also cause my job has purchased the MSDN Universal :-) ). You could also use #Develop, Eclipse (has a plugin for C#) or WebMatrix if you need free IDE tools. And then there's Mono (http://www.go-mono-org/ ) for a platform on *nix machines. It is not final but you can find out a lot about the platfdorm there too. But you know it just depends on the skills of the developers you have and your immediate needs. If you need wide platform adoption and your developers are comfortable with Java, then Java is the way to go. .NET is just not there yet in the platform department. If you need to leverage a better (IMHO) webService platform, or need to get the most out of Windows machines quickly with people who had previous experience in VB, then .NET is better for you. Just depends on you overall environment. Here (my job) people are mostly VB developers with a little C/C++ knowledge (the Perl guy left). I am probably one of the first well rounded programmers they hired in years (I've done C/C++, VB, JavaScript, some Java, a little Perl, and some batch programming). Pretty much sit me in front of a program, tell me what you need and give me the tools to do it, and I can get it done. So for them .NET was the better move cause a lot of what they knew of VB was still there to an extent. Just some changes underneath and a much larger library to work with. So good luck to you Eduardo, while not exactly what you would like, it maybe something you can learn from and incorporate into your toolset :-) Richard Norman P.S. - Please no flames, just answering the question honestly with my opinion. I do like Java, but it did have some little things that I just wondered why they did the way the did. Original Message Follows From: Goehring, Chuck Mr., RCI - San Diego Reply-To: Tomcat Users List To: Tomcat Users List Subject: RE: Why should I use Tomcat vs .NET? Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:30:34 -0700 Eduardo, A couple interesting points involves myself and my coworker. He has about ten years of VB programming experience. None of his code can be migrated to vb.net without major rewriting because there is no semblance of backward compatibility. It wouldn't be practical for the customer to pay him to convert the app to dot.net, so he's stuck in 1998. All the VB programmers have been screwed by Microsoft this way. With me, I've been doing Java and perl for about 6 years. Because of the contracting environment I'm in, it looked like my work was going to dry up. An opportunity came along for me within the company. They wanted to do ASP 2.0 web development because they had to meet a variety of government requirements and ASP had been approved for use. Thinking I was going to have to do that project, I checked into it. Firstly, the ASP code they were going to write is totally incompatible with ASP.net, so it was going down a dead path. To cover all the bases, I did some research into upgrading my copy of Visual C++ 6.0 to Visual Studio.net. MS wanted $450
RE: Why should I use Tomcat vs .NET?
Chuck, I agree with most of what you say except for your point about software purchase costs. While $450 is a lot for an individual to find, for a company the purchase cost of software is trivial compared to the cost of learning to use it. I don't know what contract rates are like in San Diego, but I bet it wouldn't take an employer long to burn $450. A new technology that's easy to learn is always attractive from the employers' point of view - they don't need to spend a lot on training and they can use relatively low-grade staff. That's why the appalling VB was such a success, but I don't think .NET is that easy to learn - unless you're already a Java developer! Chris -Original Message- From: Goehring, Chuck Mr., RCI - San Diego [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 October 2003 20:31 To: Tomcat Users List Subject: RE: Why should I use Tomcat vs .NET? Eduardo, A couple interesting points involves myself and my coworker. He has about ten years of VB programming experience. None of his code can be migrated to vb.net without major rewriting because there is no semblance of backward compatibility. It wouldn't be practical for the customer to pay him to convert the app to dot.net, so he's stuck in 1998. All the VB programmers have been screwed by Microsoft this way. With me, I've been doing Java and perl for about 6 years. Because of the contracting environment I'm in, it looked like my work was going to dry up. An opportunity came along for me within the company. They wanted to do ASP 2.0 web development because they had to meet a variety of government requirements and ASP had been approved for use. Thinking I was going to have to do that project, I checked into it. Firstly, the ASP code they were going to write is totally incompatible with ASP.net, so it was going down a dead path. To cover all the bases, I did some research into upgrading my copy of Visual C++ 6.0 to Visual Studio.net. MS wanted $450 for the upgrade. That's a lot for me to fork over to start over with a completely different system that has limited uses. Fortunately, I didn't have to go that route, but it came close. Comparing that to continuing with Tomcat and Eclipse or NetBeans or JCreator (free version), I can't see why anyone would choose to go the dot.net route. MS has also done a powerplay on the folks that use Frontpage Extensions. The Frontpage 200x now requires that you subscribe to a service from Microsoft to enable important features of the product. It is a lot like extortion. I like using the free products because I can dump any of them at any time without feeling guilty about wasting the company's money. Once you spend thousands to use a proprietary product, you may never be able to escape. I still have to support an ancient Developer 2000 product that can't be cost-effectively be migrated to a newer version and has all kinds of compatibility issues when used with newer products. Chuck -Original Message- From: Eduardo Vazquez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 10:48 AM To: 'Tomcat Users List' Subject: RE: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? Up front I do need to say that the support of this user group has been more than outstanding. I was a sole person looking for help and I received more than I could have expected, and for that thanks to all. Eventually I have lost the war; my CTO has decided on a new technology on his lonesome and has hinted that any effort expended moving forward won't result in any reconsideration of his decision (so much for standards and not putting all your eggs in one basket) Again, I've learned much from all those who have replied to my request and hope that others have learnt a little sumthin' along the way. Much Thanks, Eduardo -Original Message- From: epyonne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 9:26 AM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? Simple decision. If your company is a pure Microsoft shop, i.e. you use Windows desktops, Windows servers, and SQL Server databases, then it is a no-brainer, go with .NET. On the other hand, if your company has a mixed environment like ours, i.e. Windows and Linux OSs, UNIX Servers, Windows Servers, Oracle databases so on and so on. You may not want to use .NET. Microsoft claims that .NET can port to UNIX, but there is still a long way to go IMHO. J2EE will be a better choice for such diverse environment. By the way, Tomcat is merely a web/servlet container and .NET is an enterpirse architecture. You are comparing apple to orange. Hope this helps. - Original Message - From: Eduardo Vazquez [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 10:48 AM Subject: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? I work for a small company which is seriously considering the .NET route moving into the future. My mission if I chose to accept is to sway popular opinion towards Tomcat (Jakarta) for reasons I've
Re: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET?
Simple decision. If your company is a pure Microsoft shop, i.e. you use Windows desktops, Windows servers, and SQL Server databases, then it is a no-brainer, go with .NET. On the other hand, if your company has a mixed environment like ours, i.e. Windows and Linux OSs, UNIX Servers, Windows Servers, Oracle databases so on and so on. You may not want to use .NET. Microsoft claims that .NET can port to UNIX, but there is still a long way to go IMHO. J2EE will be a better choice for such diverse environment. By the way, Tomcat is merely a web/servlet container and .NET is an enterpirse architecture. You are comparing apple to orange. Hope this helps. - Original Message - From: Eduardo Vazquez [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 10:48 AM Subject: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? I work for a small company which is seriously considering the .NET route moving into the future. My mission if I chose to accept is to sway popular opinion towards Tomcat (Jakarta) for reasons I've yet to summarize because I can't confidently regurgitate any (I'm new to Linux/Tomcat for the most part). Is there anyone who has made this argument yet? Are there anyone have a url with the comparison done already or a list of reasons why .NET isn't optimal versus the other options or on the flip side of that; why tomcat rocks? Any help would be appreciated; I'm not looking forward to becoming even more reliant on one company. Thanks in advance, Eduardo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET?
Up front I do need to say that the support of this user group has been more than outstanding. I was a sole person looking for help and I received more than I could have expected, and for that thanks to all. Eventually I have lost the war; my CTO has decided on a new technology on his lonesome and has hinted that any effort expended moving forward won't result in any reconsideration of his decision (so much for standards and not putting all your eggs in one basket) Again, I've learned much from all those who have replied to my request and hope that others have learnt a little sumthin' along the way. Much Thanks, Eduardo -Original Message- From: epyonne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 9:26 AM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? Simple decision. If your company is a pure Microsoft shop, i.e. you use Windows desktops, Windows servers, and SQL Server databases, then it is a no-brainer, go with .NET. On the other hand, if your company has a mixed environment like ours, i.e. Windows and Linux OSs, UNIX Servers, Windows Servers, Oracle databases so on and so on. You may not want to use .NET. Microsoft claims that .NET can port to UNIX, but there is still a long way to go IMHO. J2EE will be a better choice for such diverse environment. By the way, Tomcat is merely a web/servlet container and .NET is an enterpirse architecture. You are comparing apple to orange. Hope this helps. - Original Message - From: Eduardo Vazquez [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 10:48 AM Subject: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? I work for a small company which is seriously considering the .NET route moving into the future. My mission if I chose to accept is to sway popular opinion towards Tomcat (Jakarta) for reasons I've yet to summarize because I can't confidently regurgitate any (I'm new to Linux/Tomcat for the most part). Is there anyone who has made this argument yet? Are there anyone have a url with the comparison done already or a list of reasons why .NET isn't optimal versus the other options or on the flip side of that; why tomcat rocks? Any help would be appreciated; I'm not looking forward to becoming even more reliant on one company. Thanks in advance, Eduardo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET?
That's typical. Almost 10 out of 10 times when an executive who champions a humongous project, it is solely for his/her own resume or agenda. Very seldom it is for the good of the company as a whole. - Original Message - From: Eduardo Vazquez [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Tomcat Users List' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 12:47 PM Subject: RE: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? Up front I do need to say that the support of this user group has been more than outstanding. I was a sole person looking for help and I received more than I could have expected, and for that thanks to all. Eventually I have lost the war; my CTO has decided on a new technology on his lonesome and has hinted that any effort expended moving forward won't result in any reconsideration of his decision (so much for standards and not putting all your eggs in one basket) Again, I've learned much from all those who have replied to my request and hope that others have learnt a little sumthin' along the way. Much Thanks, Eduardo -Original Message- From: epyonne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 9:26 AM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? Simple decision. If your company is a pure Microsoft shop, i.e. you use Windows desktops, Windows servers, and SQL Server databases, then it is a no-brainer, go with .NET. On the other hand, if your company has a mixed environment like ours, i.e. Windows and Linux OSs, UNIX Servers, Windows Servers, Oracle databases so on and so on. You may not want to use .NET. Microsoft claims that .NET can port to UNIX, but there is still a long way to go IMHO. J2EE will be a better choice for such diverse environment. By the way, Tomcat is merely a web/servlet container and .NET is an enterpirse architecture. You are comparing apple to orange. Hope this helps. - Original Message - From: Eduardo Vazquez [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 10:48 AM Subject: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? I work for a small company which is seriously considering the .NET route moving into the future. My mission if I chose to accept is to sway popular opinion towards Tomcat (Jakarta) for reasons I've yet to summarize because I can't confidently regurgitate any (I'm new to Linux/Tomcat for the most part). Is there anyone who has made this argument yet? Are there anyone have a url with the comparison done already or a list of reasons why .NET isn't optimal versus the other options or on the flip side of that; why tomcat rocks? Any help would be appreciated; I'm not looking forward to becoming even more reliant on one company. Thanks in advance, Eduardo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET?
Hmm, you can still forward all the feedbacks to your CTO:) Best Bao Eduardo Vazquez wrote: Up front I do need to say that the support of this user group has been more than outstanding. I was a sole person looking for help and I received more than I could have expected, and for that thanks to all. Eventually I have lost the war; my CTO has decided on a new technology on his lonesome and has hinted that any effort expended moving forward won't result in any reconsideration of his decision (so much for standards and not putting all your eggs in one basket) Again, I've learned much from all those who have replied to my request and hope that others have learnt a little sumthin' along the way. Much Thanks, Eduardo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why should I use Tomcat vs .NET?
Eduardo, A couple interesting points involves myself and my coworker. He has about ten years of VB programming experience. None of his code can be migrated to vb.net without major rewriting because there is no semblance of backward compatibility. It wouldn't be practical for the customer to pay him to convert the app to dot.net, so he's stuck in 1998. All the VB programmers have been screwed by Microsoft this way. With me, I've been doing Java and perl for about 6 years. Because of the contracting environment I'm in, it looked like my work was going to dry up. An opportunity came along for me within the company. They wanted to do ASP 2.0 web development because they had to meet a variety of government requirements and ASP had been approved for use. Thinking I was going to have to do that project, I checked into it. Firstly, the ASP code they were going to write is totally incompatible with ASP.net, so it was going down a dead path. To cover all the bases, I did some research into upgrading my copy of Visual C++ 6.0 to Visual Studio.net. MS wanted $450 for the upgrade. That's a lot for me to fork over to start over with a completely different system that has limited uses. Fortunately, I didn't have to go that route, but it came close. Comparing that to continuing with Tomcat and Eclipse or NetBeans or JCreator (free version), I can't see why anyone would choose to go the dot.net route. MS has also done a powerplay on the folks that use Frontpage Extensions. The Frontpage 200x now requires that you subscribe to a service from Microsoft to enable important features of the product. It is a lot like extortion. I like using the free products because I can dump any of them at any time without feeling guilty about wasting the company's money. Once you spend thousands to use a proprietary product, you may never be able to escape. I still have to support an ancient Developer 2000 product that can't be cost-effectively be migrated to a newer version and has all kinds of compatibility issues when used with newer products. Chuck -Original Message- From: Eduardo Vazquez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 10:48 AM To: 'Tomcat Users List' Subject: RE: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? Up front I do need to say that the support of this user group has been more than outstanding. I was a sole person looking for help and I received more than I could have expected, and for that thanks to all. Eventually I have lost the war; my CTO has decided on a new technology on his lonesome and has hinted that any effort expended moving forward won't result in any reconsideration of his decision (so much for standards and not putting all your eggs in one basket) Again, I've learned much from all those who have replied to my request and hope that others have learnt a little sumthin' along the way. Much Thanks, Eduardo -Original Message- From: epyonne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 9:26 AM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? Simple decision. If your company is a pure Microsoft shop, i.e. you use Windows desktops, Windows servers, and SQL Server databases, then it is a no-brainer, go with .NET. On the other hand, if your company has a mixed environment like ours, i.e. Windows and Linux OSs, UNIX Servers, Windows Servers, Oracle databases so on and so on. You may not want to use .NET. Microsoft claims that .NET can port to UNIX, but there is still a long way to go IMHO. J2EE will be a better choice for such diverse environment. By the way, Tomcat is merely a web/servlet container and .NET is an enterpirse architecture. You are comparing apple to orange. Hope this helps. - Original Message - From: Eduardo Vazquez [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 10:48 AM Subject: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? I work for a small company which is seriously considering the .NET route moving into the future. My mission if I chose to accept is to sway popular opinion towards Tomcat (Jakarta) for reasons I've yet to summarize because I can't confidently regurgitate any (I'm new to Linux/Tomcat for the most part). Is there anyone who has made this argument yet? Are there anyone have a url with the comparison done already or a list of reasons why .NET isn't optimal versus the other options or on the flip side of that; why tomcat rocks? Any help would be appreciated; I'm not looking forward to becoming even more reliant on one company. Thanks in advance, Eduardo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED
RE: Why should I use Tomcat vs .NET?
What portions of FPSE (FrontPage Server Extensions) requires registration? I have not run into that before. So far my experience has been the oppsite. My job gets the MSDN Universal Subscription so VS is free along with all the platforms. In terms of going from ASP to ASP.NET, you have to change your thinking form the classical script and go method, to one of creating classes, methods and properties. That is the main trick I have found. Both are interesting to me (JSP and .NET) but I find that in .NET there are certain things I can get done faster (probably also cause my job has purchased the MSDN Universal :-) ). You could also use #Develop, Eclipse (has a plugin for C#) or WebMatrix if you need free IDE tools. And then there's Mono (http://www.go-mono-org/ ) for a platform on *nix machines. It is not final but you can find out a lot about the platfdorm there too. But you know it just depends on the skills of the developers you have and your immediate needs. If you need wide platform adoption and your developers are comfortable with Java, then Java is the way to go. .NET is just not there yet in the platform department. If you need to leverage a better (IMHO) webService platform, or need to get the most out of Windows machines quickly with people who had previous experience in VB, then .NET is better for you. Just depends on you overall environment. Here (my job) people are mostly VB developers with a little C/C++ knowledge (the Perl guy left). I am probably one of the first well rounded programmers they hired in years (I've done C/C++, VB, JavaScript, some Java, a little Perl, and some batch programming). Pretty much sit me in front of a program, tell me what you need and give me the tools to do it, and I can get it done. So for them .NET was the better move cause a lot of what they knew of VB was still there to an extent. Just some changes underneath and a much larger library to work with. So good luck to you Eduardo, while not exactly what you would like, it maybe something you can learn from and incorporate into your toolset :-) Richard Norman P.S. - Please no flames, just answering the question honestly with my opinion. I do like Java, but it did have some little things that I just wondered why they did the way the did. Original Message Follows From: Goehring, Chuck Mr., RCI - San Diego Reply-To: Tomcat Users List To: Tomcat Users List Subject: RE: Why should I use Tomcat vs .NET? Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:30:34 -0700 Eduardo, A couple interesting points involves myself and my coworker. He has about ten years of VB programming experience. None of his code can be migrated to vb.net without major rewriting because there is no semblance of backward compatibility. It wouldn't be practical for the customer to pay him to convert the app to dot.net, so he's stuck in 1998. All the VB programmers have been screwed by Microsoft this way. With me, I've been doing Java and perl for about 6 years. Because of the contracting environment I'm in, it looked like my work was going to dry up. An opportunity came along for me within the company. They wanted to do ASP 2.0 web development because they had to meet a variety of government requirements and ASP had been approved for use. Thinking I was going to have to do that project, I checked into it. Firstly, the ASP code they were going to write is totally incompatible with ASP.net, so it was going down a dead path. To cover all the bases, I did some research into upgrading my copy of Visual C++ 6.0 to Visual Studio.net. MS wanted $450 for the upgrade. That's a lot for me to fork over to start over with a completely different system that has limited uses. Fortunately, I didn't have to go that route, but it came close. Comparing that to continuing with Tomcat and Eclipse or NetBeans or JCreator (free version), I can't see why anyone would choose to go the dot.net route. MS has also done a powerplay on the folks that use Frontpage Extensions. The Frontpage 200x now requires that you subscribe to a service from Microsoft to enable important features of the product. It is a lot like extortion. I like using the free products because I can dump any of them at any time without feeling guilty about wasting the company's money. Once you spend thousands to use a proprietary product, you may never be able to escape. I still have to support an ancient Developer 2000 product that can't be cost-effectively be migrated to a newer version and has all kinds of compatibility issues when used with newer products. Chuck -Original Message- From: Eduardo Vazquez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 10:48 AM To: 'Tomcat Users List' Subject: RE: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? Up front I do need to say that the support of this user group has been more than outstanding. I was a sole person looking for help and I received more than I could have expected, and for that thanks to all. Eventually I have
Re: Why should I use Tomcat vs .NET?
Contrary to what you think, a MSDN subscription doesn't mean that everything is free for the company. MSDN is licensed on a per developer basis. To be in compliance with the MSDN subscription, each developer that will be using is supposed to be licensed. All of the servers included in MSDN are developer licensed servers. When you deploy a production application onto a different machine you are required to purchase the proper licensing for the products involved including SQL Server, Windows 2000/XP servers, exchange server, etc. If the product is going to be deployed on an internet server, you must purchase the appropriate unlimited use license. A properly licensed production application can easily add $20,000 to the overall project cost just using the things that come for free in a MSDN subscription. Once MSFT starts enforcing their licensing a little tighter you will suddenly see the cost/benefits of open source solutions. Dov Rosenberg On 10/13/03 6:05 PM, Richard Norman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What portions of FPSE (FrontPage Server Extensions) requires registration? I have not run into that before. So far my experience has been the oppsite. My job gets the MSDN Universal Subscription so VS is free along with all the platforms. In terms of going from ASP to ASP.NET, you have to change your thinking form the classical script and go method, to one of creating classes, methods and properties. That is the main trick I have found. Both are interesting to me (JSP and .NET) but I find that in .NET there are certain things I can get done faster (probably also cause my job has purchased the MSDN Universal :-) ). You could also use #Develop, Eclipse (has a plugin for C#) or WebMatrix if you need free IDE tools. And then there's Mono (http://www.go-mono-org/ ) for a platform on *nix machines. It is not final but you can find out a lot about the platfdorm there too. But you know it just depends on the skills of the developers you have and your immediate needs. If you need wide platform adoption and your developers are comfortable with Java, then Java is the way to go. .NET is just not there yet in the platform department. If you need to leverage a better (IMHO) webService platform, or need to get the most out of Windows machines quickly with people who had previous experience in VB, then .NET is better for you. Just depends on you overall environment. Here (my job) people are mostly VB developers with a little C/C++ knowledge (the Perl guy left). I am probably one of the first well rounded programmers they hired in years (I've done C/C++, VB, JavaScript, some Java, a little Perl, and some batch programming). Pretty much sit me in front of a program, tell me what you need and give me the tools to do it, and I can get it done. So for them .NET was the better move cause a lot of what they knew of VB was still there to an extent. Just some changes underneath and a much larger library to work with. So good luck to you Eduardo, while not exactly what you would like, it maybe something you can learn from and incorporate into your toolset :-) Richard Norman P.S. - Please no flames, just answering the question honestly with my opinion. I do like Java, but it did have some little things that I just wondered why they did the way the did. Original Message Follows From: Goehring, Chuck Mr., RCI - San Diego Reply-To: Tomcat Users List To: Tomcat Users List Subject: RE: Why should I use Tomcat vs .NET? Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:30:34 -0700 Eduardo, A couple interesting points involves myself and my coworker. He has about ten years of VB programming experience. None of his code can be migrated to vb.net without major rewriting because there is no semblance of backward compatibility. It wouldn't be practical for the customer to pay him to convert the app to dot.net, so he's stuck in 1998. All the VB programmers have been screwed by Microsoft this way. With me, I've been doing Java and perl for about 6 years. Because of the contracting environment I'm in, it looked like my work was going to dry up. An opportunity came along for me within the company. They wanted to do ASP 2.0 web development because they had to meet a variety of government requirements and ASP had been approved for use. Thinking I was going to have to do that project, I checked into it. Firstly, the ASP code they were going to write is totally incompatible with ASP.net, so it was going down a dead path. To cover all the bases, I did some research into upgrading my copy of Visual C++ 6.0 to Visual Studio.net. MS wanted $450 for the upgrade. That's a lot for me to fork over to start over with a completely different system that has limited uses. Fortunately, I didn't have to go that route, but it came close. Comparing that to continuing with Tomcat and Eclipse or NetBeans or JCreator (free version), I can't see why anyone would choose to go the dot.net route. MS has also
RE: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET?
Howdy, Please let's not turn this into another net versus J2ee debate ;) There are many references online, comparisons, case studies, and heated flame wars. Just google for them. Yoav Shapira Millennium ChemInformatics -Original Message- From: Eduardo Vazquez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 11:48 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? I work for a small company which is seriously considering the .NET route moving into the future. My mission if I chose to accept is to sway popular opinion towards Tomcat (Jakarta) for reasons I've yet to summarize because I can't confidently regurgitate any (I'm new to Linux/Tomcat for the most part). Is there anyone who has made this argument yet? Are there anyone have a url with the comparison done already or a list of reasons why .NET isn't optimal versus the other options or on the flip side of that; why tomcat rocks? Any help would be appreciated; I'm not looking forward to becoming even more reliant on one company. Thanks in advance, Eduardo This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business communication, and may contain information that is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. This e-mail is intended only for the individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied, printed, disclosed or used by anyone else. If you are not the(an) intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your computer system and notify the sender. Thank you. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET?
Hrm... Tomcat side: 1) $$$ 2) If there are bugs, more $$$ for support instead of just being able to fix the darn things. 3) Tomcat has a HUGE/ACTIVE user community. You can actually get help from the people who write this stuff. 4) The dev tools are free too (eclipse/netbeans/jedit/etc) 5) You don't need a training class to learn the ins and outs of the app (more $$$ to MS) 6) Pretty darn easy to find a java programmer. Just advertise to this list and you will get one that likes tomcat too. :) 7) Bugs, Esp bugs that allow evil doers in are fixed IMMEDIATELY! You won't have to wait for M$ to get around to realeasing a fix 2 months after it is reported or telling you that you need to buy the next version to fix that problem. 8) Free upgrades. MS Side: 1) if your org has deep pockets they have phone support standing by. 2) Really easy to make a simple app using the wizards. Click through programming. 3) Another nice item for your resume when your company goes under because they spent a significant percentage of their income on the .NET system. --Angus -Original Message- From: Eduardo Vazquez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 11:48 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? I work for a small company which is seriously considering the .NET route moving into the future. My mission if I chose to accept is to sway popular opinion towards Tomcat (Jakarta) for reasons I've yet to summarize because I can't confidently regurgitate any (I'm new to Linux/Tomcat for the most part). Is there anyone who has made this argument yet? Are there anyone have a url with the comparison done already or a list of reasons why .NET isn't optimal versus the other options or on the flip side of that; why tomcat rocks? Any help would be appreciated; I'm not looking forward to becoming even more reliant on one company. Thanks in advance, Eduardo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET?
I'm defiantly not trying tobut even after calling up SUN and asking them to sell me on their technology I've received very little in terms of pros/cons either way. I've done my share of googleing with no substantial returns. That's why I'm pinging the users now, what better place to go than to the them? -Original Message- From: Shapira, Yoav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 11:58 AM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: RE: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? Howdy, Please let's not turn this into another net versus J2ee debate ;) There are many references online, comparisons, case studies, and heated flame wars. Just google for them. Yoav Shapira Millennium ChemInformatics -Original Message- From: Eduardo Vazquez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 11:48 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? I work for a small company which is seriously considering the .NET route moving into the future. My mission if I chose to accept is to sway popular opinion towards Tomcat (Jakarta) for reasons I've yet to summarize because I can't confidently regurgitate any (I'm new to Linux/Tomcat for the most part). Is there anyone who has made this argument yet? Are there anyone have a url with the comparison done already or a list of reasons why .NET isn't optimal versus the other options or on the flip side of that; why tomcat rocks? Any help would be appreciated; I'm not looking forward to becoming even more reliant on one company. Thanks in advance, Eduardo This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business communication, and may contain information that is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. This e-mail is intended only for the individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied, printed, disclosed or used by anyone else. If you are not the(an) intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your computer system and notify the sender. Thank you. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET?
First off JSP/Servlet aren't going to lock you into one company. JSP/Servlets are standardized. Sure some differences in servers, but for deploying an application, if the server you are deploying on accepts the version of the JSP/Servlet spec your app is in, then you will just deploy it. Whether it's BEA, Oracle 9iAS, Websphere, Sun ONE Server, or even Tomcat. You shouldn't be asking the question why should I choose Tomcat vs. .Net. You should be asking why should I choose .Net vs. any JSP/Servlet server I might need for any given task. .Net you will run on a Windows server. JSP/Servlet containers, you can pick up most OS and Hardware. You also are not locking yourself into one vendor. If .Net works out like most MS products you'll think they will be standardized, but they never will be (if other start creating .Net servers...if they do.). Also, .Net vs. J2EE. J2EE has been around a long time. .Net is new and you can bet your back pocket on it having bugs for a long time. Look at NT4.0 vs XP, or how long it took to go from two kernels to one (Windows 9x vs. XP Home/Pro). J2EE/JSP/Servlet technologies have a fast paced standards organization. .Net was realeased to ISO (I for one feel the ISO is as slow as a snail, and out of touch in many areas...tooo political). Anyone can get in on the JCP. www.jcp.org. I also wrote a paper on the subject. I would claim it to be brutal and skewed to the java technologies point of view especially considering the title. I believe they are simply the better choice for a number of reasons. Anyways, you can download and read or throw away from: http://wadechandler.no-ip.com/~wchan/ Maybe they work for you maybe they don't, but you can make a decision for yourself. Wade -Original Message- From: Eduardo Vazquez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 12:24 PM To: 'Tomcat Users List' Subject: RE: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? I'm defiantly not trying tobut even after calling up SUN and asking them to sell me on their technology I've received very little in terms of pros/cons either way. I've done my share of googleing with no substantial returns. That's why I'm pinging the users now, what better place to go than to the them? -Original Message- From: Shapira, Yoav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 11:58 AM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: RE: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? Howdy, Please let's not turn this into another net versus J2ee debate ;) There are many references online, comparisons, case studies, and heated flame wars. Just google for them. Yoav Shapira Millennium ChemInformatics -Original Message- From: Eduardo Vazquez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 11:48 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? I work for a small company which is seriously considering the .NET route moving into the future. My mission if I chose to accept is to sway popular opinion towards Tomcat (Jakarta) for reasons I've yet to summarize because I can't confidently regurgitate any (I'm new to Linux/Tomcat for the most part). Is there anyone who has made this argument yet? Are there anyone have a url with the comparison done already or a list of reasons why .NET isn't optimal versus the other options or on the flip side of that; why tomcat rocks? Any help would be appreciated; I'm not looking forward to becoming even more reliant on one company. Thanks in advance, Eduardo This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business communication, and may contain information that is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. This e-mail is intended only for the individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied, printed, disclosed or used by anyone else. If you are not the(an) intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your computer system and notify the sender. Thank you. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET?
Linux web servers have a lower cost or ownership - Topcat is a Linux solution with about the same features as ASPX. Shawn Zernik Internetwork Consulting www.internetworkconsulting.net -Original Message- From: Eduardo Vazquez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 10:48 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET? I work for a small company which is seriously considering the .NET route moving into the future. My mission if I chose to accept is to sway popular opinion towards Tomcat (Jakarta) for reasons I've yet to summarize because I can't confidently regurgitate any (I'm new to Linux/Tomcat for the most part). Is there anyone who has made this argument yet? Are there anyone have a url with the comparison done already or a list of reasons why .NET isn't optimal versus the other options or on the flip side of that; why tomcat rocks? Any help would be appreciated; I'm not looking forward to becoming even more reliant on one company. Thanks in advance, Eduardo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why should i use Tomcat vs .NET?
This one is not pro Tomcat. What about vendor locking? If you choose .Net you are bound to Mickeysoft. Can never change or have to do all the work again. You will tie your customers into .Net too. Will it be what they want? If you choose Java/Tomcat you can still run it on Mickeysoft. But then I think you already know this. W. Werner van Mook Java Lead Developer / Trainer Connecties Voor Internet - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
