Re: [Toolserver-l] [Wikitech-l] 403: User account expired toolserver.org/~soxred93

[Platonides]

19/03/12 03:50, [[w:en:User:Madman]] wrote:
 Unfortunately, my OCD makes me apply absurdly arbitrary 
 and exacting standards to any code when it has my
 name on it. This also makes it difficult for me to use source control
 (though I *do*, as it's absolutely essential to development) as I
 don't like keeping around code that didn't work or code that's no
 longer needed; it doesn't seem organized to me.
 
 I'm not familiar with Git, (...)

You will fell in love with git rebase.

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Re: [Toolserver-l] [Wikitech-l] 403: User account expired toolserver.org/~soxred93

[[[w:en:User:Madman]]]

On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 10:50 PM, [[w:en:User:Madman]]
madman.enw...@gmail.com wrote:
 Haha, no worries. As it happens, I've made enough progress that I
 anticipate releasing documentation and examples by the end of tomorrow
 (today?) and the base code by the end of the next day.

Documentation is located at http://toolserver.org/~madman/dementia/
and examples are on classes Action and Query. All further updates
(including a description of the framework, its dependencies, and base
code) will probably be posted at that address and not sent to the list
so as not to spam. I'd be happy to have any comments, bugs, feature
requests, ideas for better names, etc. sent to me via e-mail or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Madman. I love criticism; for
all I know, there could be a hundred reasons why this is just a
novelty and won't work in practice (I'm encountering a couple such
challenging problems now).

Cheers!
-Madman

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Re: [Toolserver-l] [Wikitech-l] 403: User account expired toolserver.org/~soxred93

[Sumana Harihareswara]

On 03/15/2012 09:50 PM, [[w:en:User:Madman]] wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Tim Landscheidt t...@tim-landscheidt.de 
 wrote:
 It depends on what you mean by requirement.  Something
 like a library *must* provide a function normalizeLink()
 with these semantics would probably deter developers from
 trying to implement it.  If on the other hand there was an
 algorithm if you want to normalize links, do A, B, C, D and
 E and corresponding test cases to check compliance, I think
 it would be much more inviting.
 
 +1. Speaking as a framework developer, build a test case and it shall
 be done! If the list will allow a shameless self plug, based on this
 thread I've developed an alpha version of a framework (PHP-only,
 sorry) that:
 
 a.) supports all actions and queries in the API without any
 specialized code in the framework
 b.) supports updates to the API with a simple svn update, and
 c.) automagically selects a backend (HTTP by default but database
 server if available) for queries without the need to code for any
 given environment.
 
 Right now I'm seeing speed increases on the order of 2.5x and am a
 very happy camper. I've got to make it look all pretty (phpDocumented
 and such) and fix a couple encapsulation violations in the
 architecture, but if anyone's interested in betaing it once I can
 stand others looking at it, let me know! It's possible some bugs
 aren't going to be found except through actual use cases, encountering
 things like columns and indexes that don't exist on the Toolserver.
 
 Cheers,
 -Madman

You know what I'm about to say. :-)  Come on, come on, just show us the
code, as unbearable as you may find that.  Release early, release often,
let us get our paws on it and help you.  :-)

If for whatever reason you'd rather not have it on Toolserver, you can
get a Git repository hosted with Wikimedia
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Git/New_repositories and share it there.

-- 
Sumana Harihareswara
Volunteer Development Coordinator
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: [Toolserver-l] [Wikitech-l] 403: User account expired toolserver.org/~soxred93

[[[w:en:User:Madman]]]

On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 10:10 PM, Sumana Harihareswara
suma...@wikimedia.org wrote:
 You know what I'm about to say. :-)  Come on, come on, just show us the
 code, as unbearable as you may find that.  Release early, release often,
 let us get our paws on it and help you.  :-)

 If for whatever reason you'd rather not have it on Toolserver, you can
 get a Git repository hosted with Wikimedia
 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Git/New_repositories and share it there.

Haha, no worries. As it happens, I've made enough progress that I
anticipate releasing documentation and examples by the end of tomorrow
(today?) and the base code by the end of the next day. I don't mean to
be a tease, so to speak. :P Unfortunately, my OCD makes me apply
absurdly arbitrary and exacting standards to any code when it has my
name on it. This also makes it difficult for me to use source control
(though I *do*, as it's absolutely essential to development) as I
don't like keeping around code that didn't work or code that's no
longer needed; it doesn't seem organized to me.

I'm not familiar with Git, but I'll look into it; as the framework has
a dependency on MediaWiki, it'll probably be best to use what
MediaWiki's going to use, especially if I can define it as an external
repository. That way I wouldn't have to keep metadata around that
might not be able to be checked in, write a checkout script, or have
the possibility of having an old version of MediaWiki distributed with
the framework.

Thanks!
-Madman

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Re: [Toolserver-l] [Wikitech-l] 403: User account expired toolserver.org/~soxred93

[Sumana Harihareswara]

On 03/18/2012 10:50 PM, [[w:en:User:Madman]] wrote:
 On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 10:10 PM, Sumana Harihareswara
 suma...@wikimedia.org wrote:
 You know what I'm about to say. :-)  Come on, come on, just show us the
 code, as unbearable as you may find that.  Release early, release often,
 let us get our paws on it and help you.  :-)

 If for whatever reason you'd rather not have it on Toolserver, you can
 get a Git repository hosted with Wikimedia
 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Git/New_repositories and share it there.
 
 Haha, no worries. As it happens, I've made enough progress that I
 anticipate releasing documentation and examples by the end of tomorrow
 (today?) and the base code by the end of the next day. I don't mean to
 be a tease, so to speak. :P Unfortunately, my OCD makes me apply
 absurdly arbitrary and exacting standards to any code when it has my
 name on it. This also makes it difficult for me to use source control
 (though I *do*, as it's absolutely essential to development) as I
 don't like keeping around code that didn't work or code that's no
 longer needed; it doesn't seem organized to me.
 
 I'm not familiar with Git, but I'll look into it; as the framework has
 a dependency on MediaWiki, it'll probably be best to use what
 MediaWiki's going to use, especially if I can define it as an external
 repository. That way I wouldn't have to keep metadata around that
 might not be able to be checked in, write a checkout script, or have
 the possibility of having an old version of MediaWiki distributed with
 the framework.
 
 Thanks!
 -Madman

Thanks, Madman!  I am sure many people are looking forward to your
code's debut.  And as for Git, people rave about its flexibility (which
does unfortunately come with a learning curve) --
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Git links to our blog post, and
https://labsconsole.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Access#Access_FAQ will help
you get an account.  (We're managing Git/Gerrit access via unified
logins with Labsconsole on Wikimedia Labs.)

-- 
Sumana Harihareswara
Volunteer Development Coordinator
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: [Toolserver-l] [Wikitech-l] 403: User account expired toolserver.org/~soxred93

[Tim Landscheidt]

Platonides platoni...@gmail.com wrote:

 [...]
 I think it really makes sense to define the names of a set of available
 functions. That would really make much simpler the development of
 portable tools, or working on different languages, without having to
 relearn the framework used.
 That said, each of us would probably push for their own API to be
 standarised.

I think you found the problem :-).  Should normalizeLink
be a method of WikiFarm, Wiki or WikiPage?  Should a
page title be a string or a WikiTitle?  If the latter and
in a true OOP language, should it be a derived class of
string or WikiString which would be then derived from
string?  And so on, and so forth.

 I don't think providing tests is the panacea for making people implement
 them. They are obviously nice, but as it would be open source, each user
 doesn't need to reimplement them according to the specification. The
 same code could be shared.
 The problem is in adoption of the API, and agreeing on an standarised one.

Having recently ported a parser skeleton from Java to PHP, I
disagree wholeheartedly :-).  There are many subtle differ-
ences between languages which programmers usually aren't
even aware of because they take them for granted.  Take re-
gular expressions and their various flavours for example.
Test cases ensure reproducable results and give the develop-
ers the confidence that their enhancement/optimization will
not burn down the house.

  So I'm looking forward to Madman publishing his framework.

Tim


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Re: [Toolserver-l] [Wikitech-l] 403: User account expired toolserver.org/~soxred93

[[[w:en:User:Madman]]]

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Tim Landscheidt t...@tim-landscheidt.de 
wrote:
 It depends on what you mean by requirement.  Something
 like a library *must* provide a function normalizeLink()
 with these semantics would probably deter developers from
 trying to implement it.  If on the other hand there was an
 algorithm if you want to normalize links, do A, B, C, D and
 E and corresponding test cases to check compliance, I think
 it would be much more inviting.

+1. Speaking as a framework developer, build a test case and it shall
be done! If the list will allow a shameless self plug, based on this
thread I've developed an alpha version of a framework (PHP-only,
sorry) that:

a.) supports all actions and queries in the API without any
specialized code in the framework
b.) supports updates to the API with a simple svn update, and
c.) automagically selects a backend (HTTP by default but database
server if available) for queries without the need to code for any
given environment.

Right now I'm seeing speed increases on the order of 2.5x and am a
very happy camper. I've got to make it look all pretty (phpDocumented
and such) and fix a couple encapsulation violations in the
architecture, but if anyone's interested in betaing it once I can
stand others looking at it, let me know! It's possible some bugs
aren't going to be found except through actual use cases, encountering
things like columns and indexes that don't exist on the Toolserver.

Cheers,
-Madman

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Re: [Toolserver-l] [Wikitech-l] 403: User account expired toolserver.org/~soxred93

[Dr. Trigon]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 13.03.2012 17:05, Tim Landscheidt wrote:
 Even if only for PHP there would be a critical mass, it'd be still
 useful to Perl, Python and other developers.  For example, I think
 it is a common problem to normalize links - e. g., are
 [[Diskussion:ABC_abc#.C3.A4.C3.B6.C3.BC]] and [[de:Talk:aBC
 abc#äöü]] pointing at the same resource? Most developers start
 with the easy bits and end up with something that works for most of
 their use cases, but fails if that line is overstepped (for example
 Image: - File:).  If there was an existing module for this,
 you wouldn't have to think about all the fringe cases yourself, but
 could base upon the sweat poured by others :-).  If Me- diaWiki got
 updated, you would just have to look at the changes in the PHP
 module and port them to your language of choice.

That is the reason why I occasionally use pywikipedia framework
with toolserver tools also... ;) So use the pywikipedia as starting
point for such a python library.

+1

Last thing I remember to miss (nice to have) was the toolserver
notice [1] or a module to check if a given URL is safe (e.g.
no file:///etc/passwd)

[1] https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Toolserver_notice
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Re: [Toolserver-l] [Wikitech-l] 403: User account expired toolserver.org/~soxred93

[Tim Landscheidt]

MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:

 [...]
 I'm a bit concerned about the diversity of the tools made by each of us.
 Almost every user utilises its own library of files for providing a
 skin, db access... Which make integrating them into something coherent
 quite hard.
 These multiple frameworks may also be an effect of the large
 applications ban.
 [...]

 I had similar thoughts recently when faced for the n-th time
 with accessing Wikipedia per MySQL (on the toolserver) or
 the API (elsewhere) in Perl.  It would be nice to have one
 module with an interface that can be used by Toolserver
 users and others as well.  Skins fall into this category as
 well: I think most developers could easily adapt their tools
 to use a centralized skin, but wouldn't bother to implement
 one by themselves that is accessible and usable.

 Right. Or if the Toolserver is horribly lagged, switch to the API silently
 to get the most recent data. I've had similar thoughts.

 While we all dream of a world in which there's no duplicated coding effort,
 the reality of these Toolserver tools is that every developer has a
 programming language preference. You're Perl, I'm Python, others are PHP. So
 ultimately, I don't know how much integration there can really be.

Well, there are 684 directories in /home, so there will
probably be more than one project in Perl, Python or
PHP :-).

  Even if only for PHP there would be a critical mass, it'd
be still useful to Perl, Python and other developers.  For
example, I think it is a common problem to normalize links -
e. g., are [[Diskussion:ABC_abc#.C3.A4.C3.B6.C3.BC]] and
[[de:Talk:aBC abc#äöü]] pointing at the same resource?
Most developers start with the easy bits and end up with
something that works for most of their use cases, but fails
if that line is overstepped (for example Image: -
File:).  If there was an existing module for this, you
wouldn't have to think about all the fringe cases yourself,
but could base upon the sweat poured by others :-).  If Me-
diaWiki got updated, you would just have to look at the
changes in the PHP module and port them to your language of
choice.

 Consistent styling (importing a common CSS file) is easy enough, though. As
 long as, y'know, it isn't ugly. ;-)

AFAICS, common CSS wouldn't be enough for a consistent
user interface.

Tim


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Re: [Toolserver-l] [Wikitech-l] 403: User account expired toolserver.org/~soxred93

[Jeremy Baron]

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 10:49, Petr Bena benap...@gmail.com wrote:
 It's true, most of the tools were overtaken by another user, can you
 tell us which tools are still broken? I myself would prefer to move
 all these tools to wikimedia labs, as soon as it's possible, which
 would allow us to manage them together without separating it tool per
 user (eg no ~soxred/files but toolname/files) where all tools would
 have own git repository and devs could just update them together and
 push to production.

fwiw, the same thing has been possible on the toolserver for quite a
while now: Multi-maintainer projects (MMP)

maybe they're aren't used enough when making a tool but (I think) you
can't blame the roots for that and (I guess/hope) making new MMPs is a
relatively cheap/easy process.

-Jeremy

(Also, this whole thread belongs on toolserver-l I think?)

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[Toolserver-l] [Wikitech-l] 403: User account expired toolserver.org/~soxred93

[Merlijn van Deen]

On 12 March 2012 15:49, Hydriz Wikipedia ad...@alphacorp.tk wrote:

 Tparis has the full source code of those tools, and looks like he has
 already brought them up on his own account. See
 https://toolserver.org/~tparis.


Could we (in general) *please* not do this? If someones tools are important
enough to be taken over by someone else, they are most certainly important
enough for a multi-maintainer project. In {one month, one year, five
years}, Tparis' account will also expire and we will have the same problem
all over again.

Best,
Merlijn
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Re: [Toolserver-l] [Wikitech-l] 403: User account expired toolserver.org/~soxred93

[Paul Selitskas]

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Merlijn van Deen valhall...@arctus.nl wrote:
 On 12 March 2012 15:49, Hydriz Wikipedia ad...@alphacorp.tk wrote:

 Tparis has the full source code of those tools, and looks like he has
 already brought them up on his own account. See
 https://toolserver.org/~tparis.


 Could we (in general) *please* not do this? If someones tools are important
 enough to be taken over by someone else, they are most certainly important
 enough for a multi-maintainer project. In {one month, one year, five years},
 Tparis' account will also expire and we will have the same problem all over
 again.

 Best,
 Merlijn


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That's a good point not to do this ever more. But then we are about to
return to the stable toolserver approach, aren't we? :) By the way
there is a sort of bugs in Soxred's tools concerning language code -
project subdomain conversion which I would like to fix or at least
report them (I can remind that I've already done it once in Soxred's
googlecode issue tracker).

-- 
З павагай,
Павел Селіцкас/Paul Selitskas
Wizardist @ Wikimedia projects
p.selits...@gmail.com, +375257408304
Skype: p.selitskas

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Re: [Toolserver-l] [Wikitech-l] 403: User account expired toolserver.org/~soxred93

[Platonides]

On 12/03/12 17:05, Paul Selitskas wrote:
 That's a good point not to do this ever more. But then we are about to
 return to the stable toolserver approach, aren't we? :) By the way
 there is a sort of bugs in Soxred's tools concerning language code -
 project subdomain conversion which I would like to fix or at least
 report them (I can remind that I've already done it once in Soxred's
 googlecode issue tracker).

I also saw some code to be fixed.
Maybe there should be a path for converting an inactive user into a MMP,
and keeping the urls (if he were active, he could add 301s himself).



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Re: [Toolserver-l] [Wikitech-l] 403: User account expired toolserver.org/~soxred93

[DaB.]

Hello,
At Monday 12 March 2012 17:24:15 DaB. wrote:
 Maybe there should be a path for converting an inactive user into a MMP,

a MMP is not for collecting all stuff from a user, but for 1 project (side-
projects may be included). So a MMP Soxred93-old-stuff is not possible, but a 
MMP gradient would be. The idea behind a MMP is to develop and maintaince a 
tool (together), and if no member of a MMP are left, anybody can overtake the 
MMP.

Sincerly,
DaB.

-- 
Userpage: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]] — PGP: 2B255885


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Re: [Toolserver-l] [Wikitech-l] 403: User account expired toolserver.org/~soxred93

[Soxred93]

If you are pushing for an MMP, it would be best not to use my code. It's 
shoddy, poorly written, broken, and inefficient. Frankly, I'm amazed it lasted 
as long as it did. 

-X!

On Mar 12, 2012, at 12:05 PM, Paul Selitskas p.selits...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Merlijn van Deen valhall...@arctus.nl 
 wrote:
 On 12 March 2012 15:49, Hydriz Wikipedia ad...@alphacorp.tk wrote:
 
 Tparis has the full source code of those tools, and looks like he has
 already brought them up on his own account. See
 https://toolserver.org/~tparis.
 
 
 Could we (in general) *please* not do this? If someones tools are important
 enough to be taken over by someone else, they are most certainly important
 enough for a multi-maintainer project. In {one month, one year, five years},
 Tparis' account will also expire and we will have the same problem all over
 again.
 
 Best,
 Merlijn
 
 
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 That's a good point not to do this ever more. But then we are about to
 return to the stable toolserver approach, aren't we? :) By the way
 there is a sort of bugs in Soxred's tools concerning language code -
 project subdomain conversion which I would like to fix or at least
 report them (I can remind that I've already done it once in Soxred's
 googlecode issue tracker).
 
 -- 
 З павагай,
 Павел Селіцкас/Paul Selitskas
 Wizardist @ Wikimedia projects
 p.selits...@gmail.com, +375257408304
 Skype: p.selitskas
 
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Re: [Toolserver-l] [Wikitech-l] 403: User account expired toolserver.org/~soxred93

[Krinkle]

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 4:59 PM, Merlijn van Deen valhall...@arctus.nlwrote:

 On 12 March 2012 15:49, Hydriz Wikipedia ad...@alphacorp.tk wrote:

 Tparis has the full source code of those tools, and looks like he has
 already brought them up on his own account. See
 https://toolserver.org/~tparis.


 Could we (in general) *please* not do this? If someones tools are
 important enough to be taken over by someone else, they are most certainly
 important enough for a multi-maintainer project. In {one month, one year,
 five years}, Tparis' account will also expire and we will have the same
 problem all over again.

 Best,
 Merlijn


I agree. There's also the issue of updating links all over the place. Where
an MMP would have permanent links, regardless of who maintains it.
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Re: [Toolserver-l] [Wikitech-l] 403: User account expired toolserver.org/~soxred93

[Krinkle]

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 5:54 PM, Soxred93 soxre...@gmail.com wrote:

 If you are pushing for an MMP, it would be best not to use my code. It's
 shoddy, poorly written, broken, and inefficient. Frankly, I'm amazed it
 lasted as long as it did.

 -X!


Well, it's been working so far.

I'd recommend we do the following:
* creating a few MMP projects that cover the tools people use most
* make your home directory readable for group 'users' via chmod (except for
sensitive files)
* watch and see people copy your stuff into the SVN repo for the MMP
projects and check them out into the MMP account, and see people open stuff
in JIRA and get fixed in svn and pushed live :)

-- Krinkle
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Re: [Toolserver-l] [Wikitech-l] 403: User account expired toolserver.org/~soxred93

[Platonides]

On 12/03/12 19:36, Krinkle wrote:
 On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 5:54 PM, Soxred93 wrote:
 If you are pushing for an MMP, it would be best not to use my code.
 It's shoddy, poorly written, broken, and inefficient. Frankly, I'm
 amazed it lasted as long as it did.
 
 -X!
 
 Well, it's been working so far.
 
 I'd recommend we do the following:
 * creating a few MMP projects that cover the tools people use most
 * make your home directory readable for group 'users' via chmod (except
 for sensitive files)
 * watch and see people copy your stuff into the SVN repo for the MMP
 projects and check them out into the MMP account, and see people open
 stuff in JIRA and get fixed in svn and pushed live :)
 
 -- Krinkle

It's already user-readable.
The only prominent non-readable file is public_html/index.php, and I'm
not sure if Peachy/Configs has anything of interest.

So assuming I think the steps would be:
- X! reopens his account.
- Determine the tools requiring a MMP and migrate to a repository.
- Redirect the old urls to the new one.

- Make the best possible code. :)

Given that creating a MMP requires root intervention, and a different
ACL, it probably makes sense to use a few broad-scope ones, such as
article related tools.

I'm a bit concerned about the diversity of the tools made by each of us.
Almost every user utilises its own library of files for providing a
skin, db access... Which make integrating them into something coherent
quite hard.
These multiple frameworks may also be an effect of the large
applications ban.


PS: X!, what are your plans of future? Do you intend to continue
maintaining your tools?

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Re: [Toolserver-l] [Wikitech-l] 403: User account expired toolserver.org/~soxred93

[Tim Landscheidt]

Platonides platoni...@gmail.com wrote:

 [...]
 I'm a bit concerned about the diversity of the tools made by each of us.
 Almost every user utilises its own library of files for providing a
 skin, db access... Which make integrating them into something coherent
 quite hard.
 These multiple frameworks may also be an effect of the large
 applications ban.
 [...]

I had similar thoughts recently when faced for the n-th time
with accessing Wikipedia per MySQL (on the toolserver) or
the API (elsewhere) in Perl.  It would be nice to have one
module with an interface that can be used by Toolserver
users and others as well.  Skins fall into this category as
well: I think most developers could easily adapt their tools
to use a centralized skin, but wouldn't bother to implement
one by themselves that is accessible and usable.

Tim


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Re: [Toolserver-l] [Wikitech-l] 403: User account expired toolserver.org/~soxred93

[MZMcBride]

Tim Landscheidt wrote:
 Platonides platoni...@gmail.com wrote:
 [...]
 I'm a bit concerned about the diversity of the tools made by each of us.
 Almost every user utilises its own library of files for providing a
 skin, db access... Which make integrating them into something coherent
 quite hard.
 These multiple frameworks may also be an effect of the large
 applications ban.
 [...]
 
 I had similar thoughts recently when faced for the n-th time
 with accessing Wikipedia per MySQL (on the toolserver) or
 the API (elsewhere) in Perl.  It would be nice to have one
 module with an interface that can be used by Toolserver
 users and others as well.  Skins fall into this category as
 well: I think most developers could easily adapt their tools
 to use a centralized skin, but wouldn't bother to implement
 one by themselves that is accessible and usable.

Right. Or if the Toolserver is horribly lagged, switch to the API silently
to get the most recent data. I've had similar thoughts.

While we all dream of a world in which there's no duplicated coding effort,
the reality of these Toolserver tools is that every developer has a
programming language preference. You're Perl, I'm Python, others are PHP. So
ultimately, I don't know how much integration there can really be.

Consistent styling (importing a common CSS file) is easy enough, though. As
long as, y'know, it isn't ugly. ;-)

MZMcBride



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