Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Sound quality compromized when using TinySC ?
dean;486074 Wrote: On Nov 16, 2009, at 8:20 AM, technobear wrote: I can hear a clear difference using a Transporter between FLAC decoded on a PC and FLAC decoded on the Transporter. If this is reproducible (i.e. measurable) then it's a serious bug in Transporter and would need to be fixed. Same with Touch. IIRC, as tested in the lab, the audio performance of Touch was not measurably different based on the CPU load. If you can't measure it, then you can't fix it. Dean/JS: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=486288postcount=2 -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=70979 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] What will the Touch do to 16/44.1 over SPDIF
Looking forward to the Touch! I read the Touch can do 24/96 by itself. Does it also output higher rez to the S/PDIF out? So if I play 24/192 material, what happens? 1) The Touch itself gets downsampled 24/96 from the server (SOX) of does the Touch downsample itself for analoge out? 2) Can it feed my DAC 24/192? Ralph -- MrRalph MrRalph's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22078 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71345 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Sound quality compromized when using TinySC ?
pippin;486334 Wrote: Or it's a serious bug in whatever does the decoding on the PC. That's a very valid point. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=70979 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Sound quality compromized when using TinySC ?
Guys, the tiny differences we are talking about here are NOT ABOUT THE
1's AND 0's.
How many more times!
The distortions that we are hearing here are not caused by missing or
wrong bits.
They are far more subtle than that.
They fall into two broad categories - amplitude domain distortion and
time domain distortion - commonly known as noise and jitter as I said in
an earlier post.
Where these distortions arise and why is a matter for investigation but
it has nothing to do with the software or the decoding - that was
perfected long ago.
--
technobear
Chris
Transporter Beresford Caiman Croft Syntegra Zu Druid MkIV ('My
Hifi' (http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/hifi/index.htm))
technobear's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1444
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=70979
___
Touch mailing list
Touch@lists.slimdevices.com
http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Sound quality compromized when using TinySC ?
technobear;486379 Wrote: Guys, the tiny differences we are talking about here are NOT ABOUT THE 1's AND 0's. How many more times! The distortions that we are hearing here are not caused by missing or wrong bits. They are far more subtle than that. They fall into two broad categories - amplitude domain distortion and time domain distortion - commonly known as noise and jitter as I said in an earlier post. Where these distortions arise and why is a matter for investigation but it has nothing to do with the software or the decoding - that was perfected long ago. You are making an assumption that a bug is always in the software... I never said that. It is indeed nothing to do with the zeroes and ones. Whatever does the decoding includes the hardware... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=70979 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Sound quality compromized when using TinySC ?
technobear wrote: How many more times! Why are you ranting? The device is not released yet. They fall into two broad categories - amplitude domain distortion and time domain distortion - commonly known as noise and jitter as I said in an earlier post. You just described all possible errors in any audio devices. What is your point? Where these distortions arise and why is a matter for investigation but it has nothing to do with the software or the decoding - that was perfected long ago. On what basis do you make this claim? In most modern audio devices, the distinction between hardware and software is much more fuzzy than you are making it out to be. Nearly everything has a DSP. My troll detector is starting to move the meters. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Sound quality compromized when using TinySC ?
Ah, sample rate drift. Very interesting. Sounds likes samples are being dropped. Is it possible to do this with the digital output? On Nov 17, 2009, at 12:08 AM, Phil Leigh wrote: dean;486074 Wrote: On Nov 16, 2009, at 8:20 AM, technobear wrote: I can hear a clear difference using a Transporter between FLAC decoded on a PC and FLAC decoded on the Transporter. If this is reproducible (i.e. measurable) then it's a serious bug in Transporter and would need to be fixed. Same with Touch. IIRC, as tested in the lab, the audio performance of Touch was not measurably different based on the CPU load. If you can't measure it, then you can't fix it. Dean/JS: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=486288postcount=2 -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=70979 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Sound quality compromized when using TinySC ?
dean;486395 Wrote:
Is it possible to do this with the digital output?
Good question! I wasn't using an external DAC when I made the
comparison. I only listened to the Transporter's analogue outputs.
If I can find the FLAC files, I'll give it a go using an external DAC
(a Beresford Caiman).
--
technobear
Chris
Transporter Beresford Caiman Croft Syntegra Zu Druid MkIV ('My
Hifi' (http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/hifi/index.htm))
technobear's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1444
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=70979
___
Touch mailing list
Touch@lists.slimdevices.com
http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Sound quality compromized when using TinySC ?
dean;486395 Wrote: Ah, sample rate drift. Very interesting. Sounds likes samples are being dropped. Is it possible to do this with the digital output? Dean, I'm not sure - I'm at the boundary of my knowledge. As far as I understand things, no samples are being dropped or repeated, but the clock frequency in the DAC is wandering (very slightly) so all of the samples are playing, but some of them are not at exactly the right time. If this was exaggerated, we'd perceive it as something like the wow or flutter of a turntable, but it's obviously much, much more subtle than that. I have no way of measuring the s/pdif output except by playing it through an external DAC. Clearly no samples are dropped etc otw DTS wouldn't work. I'm off to research the audible effects (if any) of sample rate drift. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=70979 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Sound quality compromized when using TinySC ?
JohnSwenson;485927 Wrote: Tonight I did some careful listening with the touch, FLAC and PCM streaming and TinySC. I can't listen to Wav on TinySC since it does not support WAV at this point (I hope it does in the future). John S. Hi John, When you conducted these tests, how much delay, if any, was there when switching between streams? Thanks -- Merlinwerks Merlinwerks's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20433 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=70979 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Sound quality compromized when using TinySC ?
Phil Leigh;486419 Wrote: I have no way of measuring the s/pdif output except by playing it through an external DAC. Clearly no samples are dropped etc otw DTS wouldn't work. I have a decent sound card with SPDIF in which I could hook up to the Touch and run audiodiffmaker against if that would be at all useful. -- radish 'HELP ME RAISE MONEY FOR CHILDREN'S CANCER RESEARCH!' (HTTP://WWW.ADAMREEVE.COM/24IN24/) http://www.last.fm/user/polymeric radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=70979 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Sound quality compromized when using TinySC ?
radish;486449 Wrote: I have a decent sound card with SPDIF in which I could hook up to the Touch and run audiodiffmaker against if that would be at all useful. Radish - that would be great - can you download my test file http://rapidshare.com/files/307731080/WAV_Limelight.wav.html and make a flac clone? - then play the wav and the flac from the s/pdif out of the SB and record using your soundcard, then load the files into ADM? Please let us know what you find. Regards Phil -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=70979 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] What will the Touch do to 16/44.1 over SPDIF
Nope - 24/96 is what it outputs via s/pdif. Downsampling of 96 happens on the server. Thanks for clarifying, helps a lot. Ralph -- MrRalph MrRalph's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22078 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71345 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] NTFS Support Needed for Touch
Andy.. I started this thread and I posted a bug via an invite from Logitech and have 3 or more replies from your Logitech 2nd level support tech as indicated in my post above you reference. The name on the post is 'in' the post above: Trevor F, Logitech 2nd Level Support. I am happy and hope the latest update to the compatibility list is indeed to fully support NTFS for both reading and writing. I plan on just using a NTFS formatted 1TB USB drive so the writing to me is not important UNLESS I am missing something in the basic design on how the SB Touch will or needs to interface with external USB drives for its operation. I was happily surprised to get a 2nd level support answer and now it seems that there is a even more current update about read and write for NTFS? If this is inaccurate then PLEASE SET US STRAIGHT! Alex -- adydula adydula's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=33723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=70142 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] NTFS Support Needed for Touch
Tech Support is not the place to get answers about pre-release stuff like this. Right now it looks like NTFS will be fully supported. ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] NTFS Support Needed for Touch
The spec for TinySC is basically must be able to play music from an attached USB/SD device. Beyond that we're making it up as we go along. Normally we wouldn't even be discussing this in public but this is a special case due to the advance announcement. In the old Slim days we worked more closely with tech support but under Logitech it's become quite different. So I have no idea who that support person is and he probably has almost no info about the Touch yet, I don't think they have started training yet, certainly not on an unfinished feature like TinySC. -- andyg andyg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3292 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=70142 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: Play audio CD�s via USB on the Touch...
There is a plugin that allows you play a CD over squeeze where the CD is in the drive of the PC running the SqueezeBox server. Not exactly what you are looking for but should do for a stop gap. http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47288 Not sure if the plugin is still working etc. Cheers Louis -- lrossouw 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/lrossouw) lrossouw's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3416 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71352 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
