Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] But... It sounds soooo good
Ali Tait;539394 Wrote: > Buy a Tripath amp.They are cheap and very good indeed I had never heard of them before now, but based on a quick search, they seem very impressive. Unfortunately, they don't appear to suit my needs. I have an older turntable (Rega) with legacy phono outputs (no RCA). It looks like a Tripath only supports standard RCA inputs. The signal from the turntable outputs is too weak for standard RCA inputs. To digitize my LP collection using my Rega turntable, I need an amp with a built-in pre-amp that supports legacy phono connections or get a turntable pre-amp to use in combination with something like a Tripath. Thanks for the suggestion, however! You have made me think that a Tripath would be great in another location to drive a home-made passive subwoofer I use for my home theatre system. I currently drive the subwoofer with a very unsatisfactory, bulky, cheap, and old receiver. -- dmg dmg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37076 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77478 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] But... It sounds soooo good
maggior;539366 Wrote: > I actually have used my turntable more often to digitize some of my old > lps to listen on my squeezebox. Yes, I will have to consider digitizing some of my old LPs as well. The better half has been questioning the presence of the turntable and records in the living room recently. Hmm...that could be an interesting project. Would have to move the turntable to the computer room and find a good, low power amp to send the signal from the turntable to a sound card on a computer. I am sure I can find a used and very inexpensive low power amp somewhere local. Lots of people throw away perfectly good and sometimes exceptional gear in the pursuit of additional inputs/outputs, etc. without considering alternate solutions. (My main amp and pre-amp date from the 70's, and they are still going strong.) -- dmg dmg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37076 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77478 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] But... It sounds soooo good
My Touch arrived yesterday. Extremely easy set up. I was a bit concerned that my music library would reveal significant limitations because of the lossy WMA and MP3 formats I have used over the years to create it. (When I started my collection of CD rips, I never imagined that I would play these files on anything other than an MP3 player and that in a car for the most part. At the time, I didn't really think I needed to use a lossless format). However, even with the lossy formats, the Touch sounds great through my stereo kit. As other people have mentioned, there appears to be greater channel separation and base extension. I will have to create some FLAC rips to do a comparison and make a decision whether the increased disk usage of FLACs and the effort required in recreating my music library in FLAC is a good use of my time. (Older ears can't hear as much nuance as younger ones can.) One of the great things about the Touch is the sheer convenience of being able to gain access to a large music library (plus a lot of great Internet radio) at, well, the touch of a button. It sounds so good that I wonder whether the Touch will do for my CD player, what my CD player did for my turntable (an object more or less gathers dust and doesn't get much use--not because there is anything wrong with my turntable or that it doesn't sound great but because of laziness on my part). -- dmg dmg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37076 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77478 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] International users getting screwed again..
squeezyjim;536101 Wrote: > Interesting thread... > > (PS: Touch is still NOT available anywhere for purchase in Holland, via > Logitech's own discriminatory extortion rackets or not) Touch units have started to show up on eBay, probably from folks who were able to grab units with the discount coupon that was available for a short time. But, with these eBay sellers, you are pretty much on your own if the unit doesn't work properly (no returns, warranty not honoured in a country other than the US, etc.) -- dmg dmg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37076 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77371 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] International users getting screwed again..
Upgradealways;535886 Wrote: > Canada is 25 years behind in commerce and goods. Most online retaillers > wont ship in Canada or will ding you with retarded duty, vat, services > fees and taxes. We are litterally 3rd world country for e-commerce, > acutally all commerce. I never buy canadian, I will find an online > retailler and have it overnight shipped. Usually air shippment cost > less in duty. I encourage US, Canada is retarded Yep, e-commerce sucks in Canada, especially if you are trying to buy electronics or services online. Online retailers Canada usually charge much higher prices than their US counterparts, either because the CDN distributor charges more or because of artificially created market segments created by large manufacturers or distributors. The relatively small population spread over a large geographic area is part of the problem--there is simply a lack of effective competition. It is possible to find US-based online retailers who charge reasonable rates for shipping and use methods that won't trigger a customs brokerage fee (Monoprice comes to mind), but sometimes it can take a while to find an online retailer for a particular product. Electronics are exempt from duty, but you may have to pay a Goods and Service Tax (5%) and Provincial Sales Tax (unless you live in Alberta) to pick up the item. Usually, I get away with paying none of these extra fees, but sometimes I have to cough up the dough at the post office or the courier office. (Duty is considered a service, so if you pay duty on an item, you have to pay GST on it, which really sucks because it feels like double taxation.) -- dmg dmg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37076 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77371 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] International users getting screwed again..
hawaiijim;535531 Wrote: > For the record, the Touch is not yet available from Amazon.com in the > U.S. I'm just assuming it will be soon. They've got all the other > Squeezeboxes. As a test, try to see what info you get for a Squeezebox > Boom. I just checked Amazon.com again and noticed that one retailer is now selling for 334.99. I don't think the price is adjusted because of my CDN IP address, although others might want to check it out. That's capitalism for you. : ) The pent up demand is causing at least one retailer to jack prices. As an aside, I also note the following in the product description: "Currently, item can be shipped only within the U.S." -- dmg dmg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37076 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77371 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] International users getting screwed again..
hawaiijim;535531 Wrote: > For the record, the Touch is not yet available from Amazon.com in the > U.S. I'm just assuming it will be soon. They've got all the other > Squeezeboxes. As a test, try to see what info you get for a Squeezebox > Boom. I just checked Amazon.com again and noticed that one retailer is now selling for 334.99. I don't think the price is adjusted because of my CDN IP address, although others might want to check it out. That's capitalism for you. : ) The pent up demand is causing at least one retailer to jack prices. As an aside, I also note the following in the product description: "Currently, item can be shipped only within the U.S." -- dmg dmg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37076 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77371 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] International users getting screwed again..
hawaiijim;535505 Wrote: > This doesn't seem right to me. I can go to Amazon.com (not Amazon.ca) > right now and see their 'shipping rates to Canada' > (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=hp_navbox_596184_faq?nodeId=596192): > $7.99 per shipment plus $1.99 per item. These rates are different than > the 'rates listed on Amazon.ca' > (http://www.amazon.ca/gp/help/customer/display.html?ie=UTF8&nodeId=915472), > even though, 'according to Economist.com' > (http://www.economist.com/markets/), the U.S. dollar is currently > roughly equal in value to the Canadian dollar. > > On the Amazon.com page, 'it says' > (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=hp_navbox_lnship_int?nodeId=596184): > > > On the Amazon.ca page, 'it says' > (http://www.amazon.ca/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=hp_lnav_dyn?ie=UTF8&nodeId=915470): > > > Of course, I don't live in Canada so you probably know better than me, > but when the Squeezebox Touch becomes available from Amazon.com it may > be worth your while to at least attempt to buy it from Amazon.com > (unless you REALLY need instructions in French). > > I would not recommend Europeans try to buy from Amazon.com because of > the difference in voltage and electrical outlet shape, but in Canada > that shouldn't be an issue. Well, that is surprising and welcome news about Amazon.com, if true. This was not always the case, but there have been some changes recently in Canada that allowed Amazon more scope to do business (eg, have a physical warehouse from which to distribute books--previously, to protect the culturally sensitive book industry, they were prevented from having a physical presence). So, perhaps these restrictions have been relaxed somewhat. I am not sanguine, however. I haven't gone through the Amazon.com checkout so I can't say for sure whether I will be allowed to make the purchase. Here is the Amazon international shipping policy from http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?ie=UTF8&nodeId=596184: "Additionally, some consumer electronics, health and personal care, home and garden, jewelry, pet supplies, shoes, software, sporting goods, tools, video games, and watches can be shipped to the following countries: Australia, Austria, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Hong Kong, Hungary, India, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Philippines, Portugal, Poland, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, Thailand, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom Visit our Amazon Global Program store to browse products that are available for shipping to these destinations." Note the phrase "some consumer electronics". If I follow the link to the Amazon Global Program store, I notice that the Touch is not available through this link. But, as I said, I have not tried to complete a checkout on Amazon.com for the Touch. -- dmg dmg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37076 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77371 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] International users getting screwed again..
iPhone;535490 Wrote: > I will say it again. The EU is still a Capitalist part of the world. One > thing drives all prices in all Capitalist areas and that is Supply and > Demand with Market driven pricing. The Market determines the price of > goods in a free market. If Logitech can get more for a Touch in one > place then in another, they are REQUIRED to. It is that simple. Supply > and Demand as well as the fiduciary responsibility of the company to > its share holders requires them to seek the highest price the market > will bear, since Logitech is a publicly traded company. Period. I would say that Logitech has a fiduciary responsibility to maximize profits, not just to price units at the highest price that the markets will bear. So, the calculation of price in a particular market is neither straighforward or simple. If discriminatory pricing damages reputation and hurts the international distribution channels to the extent that sales volume suffers and potential profits are not maximized, they would have an obligation to reduce prices in those market segments. I am not sure if they are anywhere near that point, since consumer outrage at discriminatory pricing is muted by the fact that many who are patient can find ways around discriminatory pricing in artifically created market segments by purchasing the product from a US retailer at some point in the future. But, they and other manufacturers are not immune to these pressures, which will only grow as the US dollar continues its decline for the short term. -- dmg dmg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37076 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77371 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] International users getting screwed again..
hawaiijim;535455 Wrote: > Are you telling me that Canadians can't buy directly from U.S. internet > retailers? Amazon.com in Seattle, Washington doesn't ship to Vancouver? > (Not that Amazon.com has the Touch yet, but I'm sure they will soon.) I > think most credit cards can be used to buy stuff in foreign currencies > for a small fee. You do have the 'same electrical outlets as us' > (http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=1006051807490), right? If you live in Canada, you must purchase from the Amazon.ca Web site, not Amazon.com. The Amazon.ca Web site does not have the same range of products (especially in electronics) that the Amazon.com site has. And, when it does the have same products, Amazon.ca pricing is related to the CDN not US MSRP. It is the same story with Crutchfield and TigerDirect. They both have the CDN Web sites that list products with the discriminatory pricing intact. At one time, you were able to buy directly from the US Web sites, but they must have realized that there was more money to be squeezed out of Canadians by setting up CDN versions of their online stores. Or it could simply be they are forced in too many occasions to get product from the CDN distributors who provide inventory at a higher price for CDN sales. However, it is still possible to find online US retailers who will ship internationally. Usually, the mark up on shipping is a bit out of line, but even considering this mark up, it is often cheaper to buy directly from the US retailer. And, of course, there is always eBay. When the initial demand subsides, the Touch units will start appearing on eBay. It is not unheard to see something like 20-30 dollars for shipping on a product of the approximate weight and dimensions of the Touch. (Strangely, it is ofent a lot cheaper for shipping from Hong Kong to Canada than from a US address). However, it is usually a no brainer to make the purchase from an eBayer (discounted price of, say, 225 + 20 = 250 vs 379 + shipping in Canada). There is more risk in the purchase and returns can be problematic. But, most people would find the risk acceptable if they could save over 100.00 on the purchase. -- dmg dmg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37076 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77371 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] International users getting screwed again..
Sike;535326 Wrote: > The getting screwed was referring to the price. Logitech selling in > through their own chanells 225 $ is quite a slap in the face... > > I don't mind finding the bugs. I don't want to use it as an alarm > clock, to turn on/off any other equipment with it or link to facebook. > I just want to listen to music. The issue is similar in Canada, where the CDN dollar is higher than the US dollar and yet the MSRP is $379.00 CDN. The Touch is not yet available in Canada and one rumour has it that it will be May before the CDN stock arrives. I can't speak to any extraordinary warranty requirements in Canada, but the packaging and software do have to be in both English and French. Still, the extra cost for this and other expenses such as cross-border shipping and customs brokerage do not justify the huge price disparity. There is no duty on items like this under NAFTA. As I have said in other posts, I do not mind spending a bit more for a product if I can buy it locally. But, I do mind being gouged on the price if the price delta is too large. The Internet has helped to bring some of this price discrimination in Canada under control because consumers can check prices around the world and register their dissatisfaction in one way or another if they think they are being ripped off. (A sunglass manufacturer once tried to block Canadian IP addresses to prevent Canadians from checking US prices--a lame and laughable attempt to prevent the knowledge of discrimatory pricing from becoming more widely known.) It does, however, baffle me that companies would continue such blatant price discrimination when people have such easy access to pricing information the world over. First, there is the damage that this discrimination does to their reputation--ie, it creates the perception that consumers exist in other countries only to be squeezed for their money and exploited by limiting purchasing options (eg, not being able to purchase from the Logitech US site directly). And, as you have so ably pointed out it is slap in the face to early adopters who have contributed to the promotion of the product. It is actually because of you and others in the Logitech community that I am interested in purchasing one of these and in fact have pulled some CAT5e cable from my server to my stereo in order to accomodate Ethernet connectivity with a Touch. Second, it hurts the relationship between retailers and manufacturers, who really should be partners in the promotion and selling of these products. If I were a CDN retailer I would be pretty upset to see a large chunk of my potential business go directly to the US because the CDN distributor wouldn't sell units to me at a competitive price. Who would want to be a retailer of Logitech products when consumer outrage over price discrimination would force me to cut my profit margin to the extent that I could only compete if I sold them for a loss or for a such a slim margin that it is not worth my while to sell them? This in turn must hurt the sales of the CDN distributors and negative consequences on the distribution chain. The US dollar is declining against almost every major currency in the world. One would hope that such blatant price discrimination cannot last over the long term. Consumers do have options. In my case, I have a US currency bank account and credit card and travel to the US a few times a year--I can pick up one in the US at a much reduced price to what I would have to pay in Canada. I would rather not have to do this, but I will if the blatant price discrimation continues. Or, I will simply choose not to purchase one at all and register my dissatisfaction that way--that is also an option. -- dmg dmg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37076 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77371 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch Pricing (Canada/International)
crazyj;535075 Wrote: > Have you heard that Logitech sold a bunch with a coupon code in the US > that brought it down to $225 USD? That makes the $379 CAD even more > painful. > > Wish I could even order one, as Logitech Canada doesn't seem to be > inclined to release any. Why do we always get the back seat to the US. > It's the same market, same products, just with a pesky border. Yes, I saw the offer in the forum and groaned--you have to have a US address in order to order from the US Logitech site. It is annoying that the price is so much higher in Canada. Companies price products higher in Canada and other market segments because they can. The US has a much larger market than Canada and, I suspect, more assertive consumers. That may change at some point, but for now we are stuck with this miserable situation. Today, the CDN dollar is actually higher than the US dollar. And, with a projected interest rate hike in June by the Bank of Canada, it is likely to stay at par or higher than the US dollar for some time. At some point, US suppliers might concede some price points owing to consumer demand/outrage, as the book sellers did in 2007/8. However, in that case, it was the bookstores that suffered, not the publishers or distributors who maintained similar levels of price discrimination. It's the same story, only worse, for cars, where the markups are both huge and unjustifiable. I note that a CDN reseller (http://solutionsav.ca/oppo.html) stated in the Canuck Audio Mart forum that he is going to see what he can do with the price once it is released in Canada (http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13087&start=15). However, it sucks that he is the one who has to cut his profit margin because the CDN distributor won't budge on the price. I guess we just have to be patient and wait until the Touch is more widely available at online retailers. However, if I see that Solutions AV is attempting to bring the price down for consumers, I will seriously consider purchasing one from the company once they get inventory. -- dmg dmg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37076 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=76751 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch Pricing (Canada/International)
iPhone;529997 Wrote: > Hello and Welcome to the Forum. > > I think that you are attempting to put the blame in the wrong place. It > is not Logitech, they are going to sell the unit first at what the > market will bear (which is called Capitalism IE good business) and the > second dynamic is that countries outside the States have requirements > that force an artificial price increase above and beyond the US MSRP > that is outside the issue of currency value differences. So it is up to > the citizens of each country to get the laws changed as to taxes, > duties, VAT, and other stupid requirements that make the cost of > business higher in those countries through over regulation. > > As an example, if a business is forced to warranty a product that they > don't even make only sale, above and beyond the manufactures warranty > that is going to cause the price to be above the US MSRP. Respectfully, I do think I am placing the blame in the correct place. It is Logitech that sets the price. Unfortunately, the local retailers are caught in the middle: retailers do not have the option, in the case of Logitech, to import directly from the US and pass the savings to CDN consumers. They must purchase the units from the CDN distributor and sell for whatever price the distributor/Logitech demands. Not all manufacturers impose these requirements--recently, I was able to purchase an HDMI switch from a CDN distributor for close to price parity with the US price because the manufacturer allowed the CDN reseller to match the US price in CDN currency, after factoring in the cost of converting from US to CDN currency. Yes, Canada has regulations that will cause the price of imported goods to be higher. As an example, all software and packaging has to be available in both French and English. This adds some costs to the units. But, I should stress again that there is no duty under NAFTA for the importation of these units. So, while I never expect to see exact price parity when the CDN dollar is at par with the US dollar, I do think that a 25-30% mark up of the price is out of line. A more reasonable markup is somewhere in the 5-15% range. I realize that prices are often set well in advance of product availability, but the CDN dollar has been close to the US dollar in value for some time. Even given the respective values of the currencies 6-12 months ago, the differential is still discriminatory. As for capitalism, last time I checked it was somewhat broken, but still functioning. Manufacturers who price their products too high in other countries relative to the US prices will face a backlash from consumers who are tired of subsidizing the low prices the US consumers currently enjoy. Something has to give at some point--either prices will have to come down in other countries to provide closer price parity and/or prices for US consumers will have to rise as a result of a devalued dollar and inflationary pressures. I do want to buy local if I can and will do so if I feel the differntial mark up in price is fair. In the case of pricing of Logitech units in Canada, the price differential appears to be unfair and discriminatory. MG. -- dmg dmg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37076 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=76751 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch Pricing (Canada/International)
Goodsounds;529898 Wrote: > Haven't you answered your own question? > > You say it is quite common for Canadian prices to be "significantly" > higher than US prices for the same items. I don't know specifically > why, but the possible reasons are numerous. Why would you expect the > Touch product would be different than all these other things you cite? There are few valid reasons why many products are priced at a much higher rate in Canada than the US. The situation has become absurd in many instances. Take, for example, Bombardier snowmobiles. The last time the Canadian dollar was at par with the US dollar, US retailers were forbidden from selling snowmobiles to Canadisn citizens looking to pay the same lower prices as US consumers at the risk of losing their franchise. The snowmobiles are manufactured in Canada and shipped to the US. That's just one example--there are others where it is possible to demonstrate blatant discrimination. It is really a matter of corporate ethics and currency hedging. Currencies fluctuate against one another, and manufacturers have a legitimate reason to provide a bit of hedge against these fluctuations in their differential pricing. But, in today's manufacturing world, with its emphasis on short supply lines, just in time delivery, electronic funds transfer, etc., a 25% mark up on the price is discriminatory. The Canadian dollar has been relatively close to the US dollar for some time (much to my pain, since I am often paid in US dollars for the consulting I do), and nothing can really justify this mark up for Canadian consumers. I will not support local (Canadian) retailers if they cannot offer a comparable price, after I factor in risk and convenience to myself. Again, I do not mind paying a bit more to buy local, but 25% more is too much. I can buy the Touch in the US in US currency, so I do not even need to worry about exchange rates. Others are not so lucky. MG -- dmg dmg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37076 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=76751 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
[SlimDevices: Touch] Touch Pricing (Canada/International)
According to the Logitech Web site, the MSRP for the touch is 379.00 CAD. With the Canadian dollar almost at par with the US dollar, this is nothing less than a price gouge. The MSRP in the US is 299.00--almost an $80.00 difference. Under the North America Free Trade Act (NAFTA), there should be no duty imposed on the device when it crosses the border. I don't mind paying a bit extra for currency exchange,, shipping, etc, but there is no way a price differential of almost $80.00 is justified. Now that the Touch is finally close to being released, I am trying to find a retailer where I can get a fair price. Unfortunately, it looks like I will have to jump through some hoops and try to find a US retailer. I would like to support a retailer based or located in Canada, but it looks like this will not be possible. (It is quite a common occurence that Canadians will pay significantly more for books, cars, and electronics than US citizens, even when the Canadian and US currencies are close.) I hope Logitech will adjust its Canadian pricing to more accurately reflect actual, rather than imagined or hedged currency rates, before the release of the Touch. Is the situation similar in other countries? MG -- dmg dmg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37076 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=76751 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
