Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] technical info audiophile about SB Touch
Themis;494009 Wrote: Why not getting a Northstar dac, or similar, used, rather than upgrading a cheap dac ? Apgrade only output stage, and power supply. The vdac is a hiend product, not look at the price. To buy something like that should be paid also on the use x40. was compared with EMM Labs DAC is one of the best ever, if not the best and are very similar already without modification. -- perito industriale perito industriale's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34754 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72246 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] technical info audiophile about SB Touch
Kevin Haskins;493694 Wrote: THD+N is pretty useless as a sole metric, that is true. Especially with loudspeakers where the on/off-axis FR measurements are more important. But... when you are splitting hairs over 0.005 THD+N Vs. 0.0001 THD+N, it is almost guaranteed that there is little audible difference between the two. Also, you have to more broadly define how it is measured. Small amounts of odd-order are very audible, higher amounts of even order harmonics much less so.Also, you would have to know where the distortion components are in relation to the frequency band. You can listen to 10% THD at 20 Hz and not tell a distorted sinewave from an undistorted one.So... yes, it is more complicated than a simple single number but there is plenty of research showing what is and what is not audible. With transducers, we are very happy to get 1% THD+N at higher listening levels. Those distortion products are both even odd order depending upon the mechanism causing them.I'd say we are pretty safe in saying that those non-linearities swamp those that are another 40-60dB further down. It is like saying you can appriciate the sound of your hifi while using your chainsaw. Nobody would consider that a rational exercise, yet we routinely make such comparisons when judging audio components. The rational person, turns off the chainsaw before they fine tune their audio system for best performance. The irrational person quibbles about the nuances of the performance while ignoring the chainsaw. The distortion of 0.0001 in the mountain can generate a much larger distortion because in our downstream facilities are amplifiers that amplify everything that goes into even the input distortion ... The DAC is selected if you want to increase the detail or to gain a better scene to your own tastes. You say that beyond a certain threshold rather low, (the DAC of the Touch is pretty cheap) do not feel more different. This is not true. Want to support that most audiophiles are deaf? There is an explanation to this. The human ear is an instrument that has had thousands of years of evulozione. What we feel is interpreted by the brain. This explains why there is a DAC with the same distortion feel differently from other DAC. Our ear is perfettamnte able to distinguish small changes that occur in a very short time, while great changes continue over time are not assimilated in the same way. is why we feel the differences between a cable and the other in the presence of a chainsaw as you :-)) I know that we are slightly off-topic:-D -- perito industriale perito industriale's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34754 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72246 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] technical info audiophile about SB Touch
Kevin Haskins;493573 Wrote: Sure.. I'm just pointing out that if you cannot hear a difference, then it doesn't matter.You don't get brownie points for making something less inaudible. I think the Touch used as a server and outputting via SPDIF directly into a DSP or a DAC is the cat's meow.I see no reason why you need to spend more for that task. well, depends that which are the quality of the speakers utilized, the environment and which is the ability to hear differences. :-)) For most people is enough quality mp3 that does not mean it's the best, the difference between an mp3 and a wav file I think it's recognizable by equipment of average quality. Certainly if there is some component that prevents the plant to hear these differences is pointless to change the DAC I will experiment with the internal DAC of the Touch but I think i will use the coax output to connect an external DAC like the Musical Fidelity VDAC that promises good performance at relatively low cost -- perito industriale perito industriale's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34754 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72246 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] technical info audiophile about SB Touch
perito industriale;493597 Wrote: I will experiment with the internal DAC of the Touch but I think i will use the coax output to connect an external DAC like the Musical Fidelity VDAC that promises good performance at relatively low cost I'll wait until I can listen to the Touch myself, nevertheless, all information gathered around converges to one point : you will probably need a much better dac than the V-dac to outperform it. ;) -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Cyrus 8xp - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72246 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] technical info audiophile about SB Touch
Themis;493619 Wrote: I'll wait until I can listen to the Touch myself, nevertheless, all information gathered around converges to one point : you will probably need a much better dac than the V-dac to outperform it. ;) The modified VDAC output stage and power more parties .. you point to savings from a good base. The DAC chip used in VDAC is good the rest can upgrade -- perito industriale perito industriale's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34754 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72246 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] technical info audiophile about SB Touch
perito industriale;493597 Wrote: well, depends that which are the quality of the speakers utilized, the environment and which is the ability to hear differences. :-)) For most people is enough quality mp3 that does not mean it's the best, the difference between an mp3 and a wav file I think it's recognizable by equipment of average quality. Certainly if there is some component that prevents the plant to hear these differences is pointless to change the DAC I will experiment with the internal DAC of the Touch but I think i will use the coax output to connect an external DAC like the Musical Fidelity VDAC that promises good performance at relatively low cost I design transducers so I can safely say, it doesn't matter how much you spend, or what the marketing department says, the very most expensive and best loudspeaker has orders of magnitude more distortion than does the DAC in the Touch. ;-) That is my only point. -- Kevin Haskins Kevin Haskins's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=30729 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72246 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] technical info audiophile about SB Touch
Kevin Haskins wrote: I design transducers so I can safely say, it doesn't matter how much you spend, or what the marketing department says, the very most expensive and best loudspeaker has orders of magnitude more distortion than does the DAC in the Touch. ;-) A related point: Often speakers are located in the wrong place. Huge improvements in sound can be had for no money, just move the speakers. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] technical info audiophile about SB Touch
Kevin Haskins;493634 Wrote: I design transducers so I can safely say, it doesn't matter how much you spend, or what the marketing department says, the very most expensive and best loudspeaker has orders of magnitude more distortion than does the DAC in the Touch. ;-) That is my only point. But that got to do! You're comparing 2 different things. You can not compare the distortion of the signal and the power .. :-O Distortion then is not the only parameter on which you decide the quality of a component hifi / hiend! is important but not the only, if you're a designer you should know -- perito industriale perito industriale's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34754 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72246 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] technical info audiophile about SB Touch
perito industriale;493639 Wrote: But that got to do! You're comparing 2 different things. You can not compare the distortion of the signal and the power .. :-O Distortion then is not the only parameter on which you decide the quality of a component hifi / hiend! is important but not the only, if you're a designer you should know THD+N is pretty useless as a sole metric, that is true. Especially with loudspeakers where the on/off-axis FR measurements are more important. But... when you are splitting hairs over 0.005 THD+N Vs. 0.0001 THD+N, it is almost guaranteed that there is little audible difference between the two. Also, you have to more broadly define how it is measured. Small amounts of odd-order are very audible, higher amounts of even order harmonics much less so.Also, you would have to know where the distortion components are in relation to the frequency band. You can listen to 10% THD at 20 Hz and not tell a distorted sinewave from an undistorted one.So... yes, it is more complicated than a simple single number but there is plenty of research showing what is and what is not audible. With transducers, we are very happy to get 1% THD+N at higher listening levels. Those distortion products are both even odd order depending upon the mechanism causing them.I'd say we are pretty safe in saying that those non-linearities swamp those that are another 40-60dB further down. It is like saying you can appriciate the sound of your hifi while using your chainsaw. Nobody would consider that a rational exercise, yet we routinely make such comparisons when judging audio components. The rational person, turns off the chainsaw before they fine tune their audio system for best performance. The irrational person quibbles about the nuances of the performance while ignoring the chainsaw. -- Kevin Haskins Kevin Haskins's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=30729 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72246 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] technical info audiophile about SB Touch
So does this mean that a Touch, wired to an external Hard Drive (how noisy are the stand alone ones) would remove the need for a NAS ? Presume not if more than one Touch is used (e.g. in another room). Also to get files on and off the hard drive would probably mean hooking up a laptop every time. -- liffy99 liffy99's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7832 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72246 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] technical info audiophile about SB Touch
liffy99;493014 Wrote: So does this mean that a Touch, wired to an external Hard Drive (how noisy are the stand alone ones) would remove the need for a NAS ? Presume not if more than one Touch is used (e.g. in another room). Also to get files on and off the hard drive would probably mean hooking up a laptop every time. You are right. Apparently you could go NASless/serverless. I also understand that the Touch running in this manner could act as a server to other players (SB3, Radio, Boom, Controller, Receiver another Touch). I expect that you won't be able to run any resource intensive plugins or transcoding. Also the webinterface would not be available on the PC. -- lrossouw 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/lrossouw) lrossouw's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3416 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72246 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] technical info audiophile about SB Touch
liffy99;493014 Wrote: Also to get files on and off the hard drive would probably mean hooking up a laptop every time. Other players can access your music library eld on the Touch-attached drive. You can share the files in a Touch-attached drive to your network (via Samba) Cool, huh? MCh -- ModelCitizen Think the third party Squeeze plugins and applets are important? Then 'vote for bug 14194' (http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14194) so more can be made. Last.fm/user/ModelCitizen ModelCitizen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=446 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72246 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] technical info audiophile about SB Touch
c3p0;492717 Wrote: you can simulate the Squeezebox even the TOUCH by using the free software in the download section. Can you give me the exact link please? -- perito industriale perito industriale's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34754 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72246 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] technical info audiophile about SB Touch
http://www.logitechsqueezebox.com/support/download-squeezebox-server.html and follow instructions from there. According to the Beta Testers for the TOUCH: the audio out is very good, an improved DAC is used, better than previous versions apart from the much more expensive (Troppo Caro) Transporter. The Digital Out is very very good with very low Jitter, so feeding an external DAC is improved As a standalone player feeding and amplifier, the TOUCH will be one of the most cost efficient ways of getting Audiophile sound up to 24/96 and if you use a better DAC it will just even better up to 24/192 and beyond (see new SIMAUDIO Moon 32 Bit DAC/Transport) You will have to wait with the rest of us to get your hands on the TOUCH, dont think it will be under my tree this Christmas, but soon I hope. -- c3p0 c3p0's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20721 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72246 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] technical info audiophile about SB Touch
the link you give me leads to this page, Download Squeezebox Server but I did not find any beta testers for the touch sono impedito?:-)) -- perito industriale perito industriale's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34754 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72246 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] technical info audiophile about SB Touch
perito industriale;492773 Wrote: the link you give me leads to this page, Download Squeezebox Server but I did not find any beta testers for the touch sono impedito?:-)) The Touch Beta testers generally agree with C3P0's statements above. (well, I certainly do.) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72246 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] technical info audiophile about SB Touch
There are several items to download: squeezecentre: acts like iTunes but doesn't rip CDs squeezeplay; simulates Touch screen visually bit also allows you to hear the music rather than just control it; ie squeezecentre controls Audio to squeezebox squeezeplay--- plays audio on pc so look for the version that works with your PC type, windows, Linux, mac the physical squeezebox will out perform any Pc standard audio card. The beta testers are a group of people who Logitech gave TOUCH's too in order to road testvthem prior to launch and feedback improvements and bugs. -- c3p0 c3p0's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20721 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72246 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
[SlimDevices: Touch] technical info audiophile about SB Touch
Hello, i turn to the technicians and designers of the apparatus, serebbe very nice if we could clarify some of my questions because I think the subject very interesting. Any answers will be posted on other forums as Italians were no reports of common interest, there is great excitement around music liquid! I'd like to understand the quality of the program used as a player and, above all, on what software rev ... compete as a player is quality compared to PC player like Foobar 2000 + driver on Vista or WASAPI Seven, or an iTunes on MAC? What kind of HardDisck support and what capacity? They also support all USB HD 1TB? -- perito industriale perito industriale's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34754 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72246 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] technical info audiophile about SB Touch
is understandable my English? -- perito industriale perito industriale's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34754 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72246 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] technical info audiophile about SB Touch
Themis;492708 Wrote: Moreover, as it sounds different from PCM, you can use FLAC compression to act as a tone control. Ten different compression levels = ten different setups ! :D :-) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72246 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
