Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Asynch USB vs. non-USB
dsdreamer wrote: > I have the Rega DAC too, BTW. Anything that has SPDIF as its output is > going to suffer from the main design flaw of SPDIF: namely the need to > recover the clock from the data. If you could go USB to I2S such that > the clock is transmitted explicitly and separately from the data, you > could get benefit from a USB D2D converter; otherwise, if the final link > to the DAC is SPDIF, I would be very surprised if there was a > (non-placebo) audible benefit. > > If you wanted to try this out anyway, just to test a null hypothesis, I > would go with something like the M2 Tech Hi-Face EVO USB to SPDIF > Converter. I don't think that the Touch with EDO can drive the M2 Tech Hi-Face EVO, so that is mistake number one. Since the price of the Musical Fidelity V-link 192 has been cut by 50% in recent on-line offers, I decided to try this out against my better judgement. I found that there was a clear improvement in sound-staging, both image specificity and the dimensions of the sound stage was increased in depth and width. Voices and acoustic instruments sounded more palpable and present in the room. I was not expecting this to be the case. dsdreamer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12588 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=94218 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Asynch USB vs. non-USB
john4456;697048 Wrote: > rgro, I also have a Rega dac and have used it via usb from the SBT > thanks to Triode's work. I found there was quite a difference in > presentation compared to spdif. Which you prefer is subjective, but you > should give it a try. The changes are easy to reverse. Very interesting (and surprising)! May I know which USB interface you used? You've got me curious. -- dsdreamer -- "Dreamer, easy in the chair that really fits you..." dsdreamer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12588 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=94218 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Asynch USB vs. non-USB
rgro, I also have a Rega dac and have used it via usb from the SBT thanks to Triode's work. I found there was quite a difference in presentation compared to spdif. Which you prefer is subjective, but you should give it a try. The changes are easy to reverse. -- john4456 john4456's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=23008 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=94218 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Asynch USB vs. non-USB
Consider this . Async USB may be the best interface ever if properly implemented . But spdiff and TOS is not to shoddely done in a good DAC either . There is a lot of well implemented work arounds to the inherit weaknesses in those connections . Can anyone be expected to hear any difference at all in a controlled test ? The audiophile hordes may swear by their mothers immortal souls that there absolutely is a very huge difference :) but we all know what that is worth . And of course the wife heard the difference to (I think their should be a one month penalty with nothing but Michael Bolton and Celine Dion for blatant audiophile clichés ) . There is of course prudent to use your DAC's best input if possible and your source's best output too, if your lucky they are the same. But practically how do you -know which one it is- if you're not a DAC designer like John ? The manual won't say " don't use our lousy input, use the input" So in practice use whatever connectors your DAC and source have and enjoy . I think it would be a complete fools errand to specifically try to source an async USB DAC to be used with Touch's USB output just because the interface is "better" . This might not be the best DAC you could get for your money and application . With that reasoning you will exclude DAC's that don't have async USB for no good reason as that difference might not be audible in practice and you end up with the third best DAC in your short list . So chose the best sounding DAC and then use it with whatever interface it comes with . But of-course it is very good if Triode can make it work :) There is a bunch of USB only DAC's that suddenly become options for us. Some user that come from computer audio, and previously used a laptop with an USB DAC can suddenly consider squeezebox Touch to be an option , very good . -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=94218 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Asynch USB vs. non-USB
Thanks dsdreamer.yeah, unless someone makes a compelling case otherwise, I'll just do nothing. I enjoy the Rega a great deal and unless something is going to make a very noticeable difference at modest additional cost, I don't see that it's really worthwhile to change anything. -- rgro Rg System information Main: PS Audio Quintet > Vortexbox > Teddy Pardo PS, Touch (wired) > Toslink > Rega DAC > LFD LE IV Signature amp > VA Mozart Grands > REL Acoustics R305. Home Theatre: Duet/SBR (Wired) > Pioneer VSX 919 > Energy Take 5 Classic 5.1. SBS 7.7.1 r33751 on a Vortexbox Appliance, V 2.0, Touch: FW 7.7.1 r9558. Duet: FW 7.7.1 r9557. rgro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=94218 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Asynch USB vs. non-USB
rgro;696833 Wrote: > Thank you both. In light of your commenets, I did a bit of research on > the Rega dac. It seems that its USB interface only supports up to 16 > bit/48khz files. > > While I don't have a huge amount of 24 bit/88/96khz files, I have > enough that I don't think I would sacrifice those in order to make the > switch. > > Apparently there are several ansychronous USB to SPDIF convertors (the > MF V-link being one) that will handle up to 24/96khz files. But, I > wonder if adding another device that converts the asynch usb back to > SPDIF is going to make me no better off, or even worse off than just > staying with my current configuration (aside from purchasing a > different dac). Any thoughts on this? I have the Rega DAC too, BTW. Anything that has SPDIF as its output is going to suffer from the main design flaw of SPDIF: namely the need to recover the clock from the data. If you could go USB to I2S such that the clock is transmitted explicitly and separately from the data, you could get benefit from a USB D2D converter; otherwise, if the final link to the DAC is SPDIF, I would be very surprised if there was a (non-placebo) audible benefit. If you wanted to try this out anyway, just to test a null hypothesis, I would go with something like the M2 Tech Hi-Face EVO USB to SPDIF Converter. -- dsdreamer -- "Dreamer, easy in the chair that really fits you..." dsdreamer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12588 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=94218 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Asynch USB vs. non-USB
Thank you both. In light of your commenets, I did a bit of research on the Rega dac. It seems that its USB interface only supports up to 16 bit/48khz files. While I don't have a huge amount of 24 bit/88/96khz files, I have enough that I don't think I would sacrifice those in order to make the switch. Apparently there are several ansychronous USB to SPDIF convertors (the MF V-link being one) that will handle up to 24/96khz files. But, I wonder if adding another device that converts the asynch usb back to SPDIF is going to make me no better off, or even worse off than just staying with my current configuration (aside from purchasing a different dac). Any thoughts on this? -- rgro Rg System information Main: PS Audio Quintet > Vortexbox > Teddy Pardo PS, Touch (wired) > Toslink > Rega DAC > LFD LE IV Signature amp > VA Mozart Grands > REL Acoustics R305. Home Theatre: Duet/SBR (Wired) > Pioneer VSX 919 > Energy Take 5 Classic 5.1. SBS 7.7.1 r33751 on a Vortexbox Appliance, V 2.0, Touch: FW 7.7.1 r9558. Duet: FW 7.7.1 r9557. rgro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=94218 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Asynch USB vs. non-USB
The main advantage of the Asynch USB connection is the elimination of clock jitter. Basically, rather than having to recover a clock signal from the signal sent by the SBT to the DAC (Push), the asynch USB approach allows the DAC to control when it receives information (Pull). SBTs are fairly good wrt jitter using their coax or optical outputs, but the asynch USB connection does away with this issue. -- eiffel eiffel's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=46208 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=94218 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Asynch USB vs. non-USB
rgro;696779 Wrote: > Looking at all the excitement over Triode's work with asynchronous USB > stuff, can someone explain to all of us numpties if asynch USB is > somehow "better" than, for instance, using a "regular" dac's connection > to the Touch via coax or toslink? > > For instance, my Rega dac has a USB input. If the efforts to refine > the Touch's USB output are ultimately successful, and reliably so, > would there be some advantage to my implementing the Rega's USB > connection vs. the coax/toslink connections? > > Thank you. The answer of course is "it depends"! On the same DAC a well implemented asynch USB input should be better than a well implemented S/PDIF interface. Its that "well implemented" that is the important part. There are a lot of poorly implemented USB inputs. A significant number of async inputs are not implemented very well and thus loose a lot of the benefits of "asyncness". There used to be a large number of dacs that just added a cheap USB to S/PDIF converter in front of their existing S/PDIF input, these will almost always sound worse than direct S/PDIF input. The issue here is that essentially ALL S/PDIF inputs have some mechanism to track the data rate of the incomming data. Such a tracking system can always be bettered by a fixed frequency system. Thats what async does, it uses a fixed frequency local clock, and tells the source to change the overall data rate so it matches the local clock. IF that fixed clock is done very well this should be better than any form of tracking. Of course not all async USB implementation are created equal. There are some very good one, and some very lousy ones. (I simply don't get it why a company goes to the trouble of implementing an async interface and uses a lousy clock) Even today there are a large number of adaptive (ie non-async) USB inputs around, unless very well done these will usually be worse than a very well done S/PDIF interface. My experience has shown that the Touch makes a very good platform for USB DACs, so a very well done async USB interface connected to a Touch will probably outperform most S/PDIF interfaces. Note there is still wiggle room here. I have a DAC I built myself with a REALLY good S/PDIF input, it will outperform almost anything expect the very best async USB interfaces. But even with that I can build a really good async USB that will beat it. (neither are cheap!) On your specific DAC, I don't know. Is the USB input a good async implementation? If yes it could very well be better than the S/PDIF input. John S. -- JohnSwenson JohnSwenson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5974 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=94218 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
