Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot T400 returns on Minifree, with Trisquel preinstalled at permanently reduced price

[noordinaryspider]

The ME is my concern, so I'm going to wait but I should probably check out  
the Libreboot site before just giving up and throwing money my kid needs for  
food, heat, school etc. at this.


My problem is getting too attached to the eBay specials I buy for the purpose  
of being sacrificial victims, but since there is a limited supply of older  
Thinkpads it may not be the worst problem in the world to have.


Your last post addressed to me just raised my opinion of you even higher than  
it already was, btw; just wanted to mention that.


US shipping would be less for me, but I'm a bit of an introvert so I'm not  
sure if I could handle being around that many people.


Heather Jr. is sociable and growing up so maybe he can do it for me in a few  
years. :)

Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot T400 returns on Minifree, with Trisquel preinstalled at permanently reduced price

[info]

Hi Heather,

If X220 porting efforts in Libreboot are successful, and I then add the T420,  
you might be able to get your T420 flashed for free at a workshop somewhere.  
If you have something like a raspberry pi or beaglebone you could also try  
flashing it yourself, you just need a clip (pomona 5250) and some wires, and  
there would be instructions on the libreboot site.


If you live in the USA and/or can travel to boston, the FSF usually hosts a  
Libreboot installation workshop at their annual LibrePlanet conference in  
Boston, MA. I personally ran the LibrePlanet 2015 and 2016 Libreboot  
installation workshops, working alongside Patrick McDermott (a former  
Libreboot developer), where people could bring their laptops for Libreboot  
installation.


PS:

I didn't attend LibrePlanet 2017, but I'm considering whether to attend  
LibrePlanet 2018 - it depends on whether I'm willing to risk a pat-down by  
TSA. That would only happen on exiting the US though (I live outside of the  
US) in my experience... they don't do body scans when entering the US, when I  
went there.


Which is kind of odd when you think about it, but it is what it is.

But yes, if I do attend LP 2018 and you're able to make it, I'll probably run  
another Libreboot workshop there like I did in previous years.


~Leah

Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot T400 returns on Minifree, with Trisquel preinstalled at permanently reduced price

[noordinaryspider]

:) Thanks, Leah.

I like my T420 and will probably just waste way too much money on shipping to  
have you fix her on up for me when we're both ready then.


If you feel like linking me to a donation page, I'll toss something in when I  
see it but it won't be much and I can find the link myself later if you don't  
have time to pat me on the head and hold my hand.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot T400 returns on Minifree, with Trisquel preinstalled at permanently reduced price

[info]

I'm not sure about ivybridge. I'm working on sandybridge, since the X220 is a  
much more usable/popular laptop than the X230 and has more or less identical  
performance.


I think swiftgeek is interested in ivy though. Contact him in the #libreboot  
IRC channel on freenode

Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot T400 returns on Minifree, with Trisquel preinstalled at permanently reduced price

[davesamcdxv]

Hi Leah, a tad off-topic (and I guess demanding) here but what are the  
chances of Ivy Bridge laptops with libreboot (especially the X230, anyway)  
working after the X220? Or can a Librebooted T420 simply be upgraded to an  
Ivy Bridge CPU and retain libreboot?

Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot T400 returns on Minifree, with Trisquel preinstalled at permanently reduced price

[info]

Hi Heather,

Yes, the T420 uses the same chipsets as the X220. If Libreboot is ported to  
the X220, then the T420 would be trivial. I'm working on the X220 first.


~Leah

Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot T400 returns on Minifree, with Trisquel preinstalled at permanently reduced price

[noordinaryspider]

Leah, that is fantastic! You've got it down to almost my own price range if I  
was ready to save up for and actually needed a new lappy.


I will spread the word. That's seriously doable for many folks I socialize  
with.


I will probably wind up with a freed X220 some one of these years but I was  
just curious if the T420 might be next since it seems (in my not too educated  
opinion) that the T420 is to the X220 as the T400 is to the X200.


Keep up the good work. You are appreciated. Imma toss a small donation into  
the hat in the next little bit since I can't indulge my dreams just this  
minute.

Re: [Trisquel-users] usb wifi devices compatible with debain 8 64bit main?

[jason]

https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-wireless-n-usb-adapter-gnu-linux-tpe-n150usb

32 or 64 bit is not really relevant for this.

[Trisquel-users] Re : issue: You do not have permission to create archive in this folder

[lcerf]

What folder?  What are the permission (right click on the folder, then  
"Properties", then the "Permissions" tab)?

[Trisquel-users] Libreboot T400 returns on Minifree, with Trisquel preinstalled at permanently reduced price

[info]

Hi everyone

I've re-added the T400 to Minifree, with Trisquel preinstalled by default as  
before. This complies with the FSF's Respects Your Freedom certification.


The price is also much lower than before (it's currently cheaper than all  
other Libreboot laptops sold by other companies):


https://minifree.org/product/libreboot-t400/

Spread the word! Every purchase funds my work on the ThinkPad X220 port to  
Libreboot, which I expect to have ready by around December 2017.


For a while, Minifree had been selling the X220 on preorder due to shortage  
of T400 laptops (X200 is discontinued still, for the same reason). Work is  
underway on that laptop still, but I've recently come into contact with a  
batch of 150 T400 laptops, and my suppliers collectively have much more than  
that in-between them.


~Leah

PS: The FSF RYF page currently lists Libreboot T400 from Minifree as  
discontinued; it was, when they made that change, but that is no longer the  
case. The Libreboot T400 from Minifree is indeed now shipping once again,  
worldwide!

[Trisquel-users] issue: You do not have permission to create archive in this folder

[silver]

Hi

I tried with trisquel GuI to create an archive.. but I get follow error  
whatever folder I try.


Could not create the archive
You do not have permission to create archive in this folder

Thank you

Re: [Trisquel-users] p2p networks supported on trisquel? and p2p encrypted chat supported on trisquel?

[silver]

Here is version that is in synapatic package manager.
0.0.0+git20150512.r2844-1~trusty+1+7.0trisquel1

Re: [Trisquel-users] Ethical Javascript Reference

[onpon4]

> live-notifications if an email arrives

Then yeah, use an email client. It's not appropriate or efficient in the  
slightest to have a tab constantly open in the background so that it can run  
a lightweight JavaScript version of an email client.


> even a chat that shows all the contacts that are online.

That's a completely separate job from email. But again, use an XMPP client.  
Web pages are not supposed to be software. They're supposed to present you  
with information found on the Web, which neither email nor XMPP are a part  
of.


> Pagination is considered to be old fashioned and tedious to use; users  
expect pictures to dynamically load as they scroll down.


By God, nothing has ever annoyed me more than this design trend, and no, I  
don't think it's done because "users expect" it. Infinite scrolling is the  
worst idea ever conceptualized by a human. It makes things impossible to find  
while offering no real advantages over regular pages.


To wit, with infinite scrolling:

1. You have to scroll until you find what you're looking for. You can't just  
click on the appropriate page link. You can't take shortcuts. All you can do  
is scroll, scroll, scroll.


2. The loading for each section takes just as long as a static, plain HTML  
page with the same contents would.


3. On phones and tablets, you don't even have the "end" key, so you really do  
have to constantly drag, drag, drag, drag your finger over and over again. No  
shortcuts.


4. After a while, the page becomes so big that it takes forever to return to  
the top of the page on phones, and no matter where you are, it becomes  
inordinately difficult to find your way back to a previous point.


5. If you accidentally do anything to leave or refresh the page, you're right  
back to the beginning. Just spent ten minutes scrolling trying to find and  
old post, and accidentally clicked on a link? Sorry! You have to do that all  
over again.


That last point especially.

I have also never met a single person who has said that they like infinite  
scrolling better than simple pages. It's always "people" or some other vague  
descriptor like that. Never any specific person, much less for a specific  
reason.


> have to deliver eyecandy, because people want it.

Again, I have never met anyone who demanded eyecandy on websites. No one  
cares. If the website looks good and presents the information it's supposed  
to present, that's all the viewers need.


What I have seen plenty of is users getting pissed because some badly written  
JavaScript either slows their computer down, or makes a page take forever to  
load, or ruins the back button, destroys their work, what have you. They  
never know that JavaScript caused the problem, but it always does.


> And there is no reason not to do it if you release your javascript code  
under a free license.


To an extent. A lot of JavaScript code is detrimental. But even if your  
JavaScript code has no such problems, there is reason not to require it.  
Again, that's for the reasons I outlined here:


https://onpon4.github.io/other/kill-js/

Re: [Trisquel-users] Ethical Javascript Reference

[shiretoko]

"Is that supposed to be some kind of joke? Until just around a decade ago, no  
webmail system required JavaScript. Heck, Gmail still doesn't require  
JavaScript to use webmail AFAIK, and there are other services with Webmail  
that doesn't require JavaScript. Riseup.net (my host) is one of them!"


You were not properly reading. I didn't talk about "a webmail system" but  
about the one like gmail, including functions like live-notifications if an  
email arrives and even a chat that shows all the contacts that are online.

Impossible without js.

You also forget the whole ajax world. Pagination is considered to be old  
fashioned and tedious to use; users expect pictures to dynamically load as  
they scroll down.


Of course you can group all of this stuff as eyecandy. But as a webdesigner  
you're facing competition and have to deliver eyecandy, because people want  
it.
And there is no reason not to do it if you release your javascript code under  
a free license.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Mission impossible: Family privacy

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

You're welcome. :)

Re: [Trisquel-users] Mission impossible: Family privacy

[noordinaryspider]

Thanks, Adfeno, that's all it was unless you believe in a higher power. :)

Anyway, it was a fortuitous mistake. I was oversharing and it worked itself  
out perfectly. Check your inbox, GNUbahn and other parents of children and  
children of parents.

Re: [Trisquel-users] purism reverse engineering

[infinityfallen]

>About pgp keys,

It's not PGP that's used in any real sense. To paraphrase my understanding of  
https://recon.cx/2014/slides/Recon%202014%20Skochinsky.pdf, each module is  
hashed, with the hash stored next to it, and then the set of hashes is  
RSA-signed and stored around the front of the line. The public key, as OnPon4  
said, is baked into the ROM- there's no way to change it.


>If you could or if you had the public key, with some
>probability you would be able to reverse engineer the intel
>me software and install the reverse engineered version of
>the software?

If you had the private key, then it would be entirely possible to install the  
reverse engineered software. However, no computationally feasible way of  
doing that, besides leaking, is known- and finding any such technique would  
be absolutely terrible, as it would render most forms of encryption  
ineffective.


What looks promising is the bug the link you posted suggests might exist. If  
that bug does exist, then it becomes possible to edit the hashes the ME  
checks against AFTER they've been checked against the signed ones-  
essentially, breaking the chain of authentication and letting us run whatever  
we want.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Mission impossible: Family privacy

[infinityfallen]

If it's of interest, you can get around the bug by using  for < and   
for >.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Mission impossible: Family privacy

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

I found out that if I write a message using the "less than" or "greater
than" signs, then the content after the first mentioned sign, or before
the second mentioned sign, gets hidden in the forums, but appears fine
in the mailing lists.

Also, the content appears fine in the mailing list archives
([[https://listas.trisquel.info/pipermail/trisquel-users/]]).

This seems to be a bug in the Mailing list to forum conversion, where
the converter fails to escape the mentioned signs.

-- 
- [[https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno]]
- Palestrante e consultor sobre /software/ livre (não confundir com
  gratis).
- "WhatsApp"? Ele não é livre, por isso não uso. Iguais a ele prefiro
  GNU Ring, ou Tox. Quer outras formas de contato? Adicione o vCard
  que está no endereço acima aos teus contatos.
- Pretende me enviar arquivos .doc, .ppt, .cdr, ou .mp3? OK, eu
  aceito, mas não repasso. Entrego apenas em formatos favoráveis ao
  /software/ livre. Favor entrar em contato em caso de dúvida.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Ethical Javascript Reference

[onpon4]

> Why don't you program a webbased email frontend like gmail without  
javascript?


Is that supposed to be some kind of joke? Until just around a decade ago, no  
webmail system required JavaScript. Heck, Gmail still doesn't require  
JavaScript to use webmail AFAIK, and there are other services with Webmail  
that doesn't require JavaScript. Riseup.net (my host) is one of them! You  
might as well challenge someone to write a program that edits text files.


> In a CMS they also expect a handy image uploader that can handle drag and  
drop, maybe allowing you to sort the uploaded images via drag and drop and so  
on.


"Drag and drop" is not a job or functionality. It's an aesthetic.  
Drag-and-drop just for a file upload will usually work, no JavaScript  
required, because it's already a feature of the Web browser. Why don't you  
try turning JavaScript off and dragging a file to the "Browse" button for  
attaching a file on this very website? It works. Here, I've attached  
something to this post that way.


Drag-and-drop for sorting things? That can be achieved just as easily with  
standard inputs. Buttons, for example, or to order things more quickly, a  
bunch of listboxes indicating new desired positions (one next to each item)  
and a "submit" button. In that case it's not quite as convenient, but still  
possible.


> I'm pretty sure that the only reason you never heard "a single example" is  
because you always refuse to accept those examples as valid ones.


No, no example I have been given has ever been one where I couldn't either  
point to an example of a website that achieves the desired outcome without  
JavaScript, or conceptualize a very obvious alternative solution to the same  
problem.


For aesthetic reasons, I can see the point in making use of JavaScript. But  
aesthetic reasons are no excuse for requiring JavaScript. You can use your  
pretty JavaScript code for drag-and-drop sorting and put a fallback JS-free  
version using standard inputs behind a noscript tag. And aesthetic reasons  
are not a valid reason to suggest that JavaScript embedded into Web pages is  
a necessary feature.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Mission impossible: Family privacy

[helloworld]

On 2017-05-26 03:05, seimirchaplin at openmailbox dot org wrote:
I perfectly understand you, I think most of us do, sometimes you might 
feel  you'll explote


X2


Heather from the Trisquel boards says:

I thought you were talking to me instead of Megver83 for a second 
because that is exactly how I feel about this whole thread.


I don't have the technical expertise to be 100% sure why my posts are 
appearing as blank space on the publicly accessible web page of the 
Trisquel forums today and coming through fine as emails, but the 
paranoid conspiracy theorist in me thinks that somebody has my back and 
has semi-banned me for my own good.


I wish I could thank them.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Ethical Javascript Reference

[shiretoko]

Why don't you program a webbased email frontend like gmail without  
javascript? Good luck!
Well, you will probably argue that nobody needs those kind of services, since  
you can check your mail with desktop mail client...
that's true, but people *want* them and they expect this kind of  
functionality in a webbrowser.
In a CMS they also expect a handy image uploader that can handle drag and  
drop, maybe allowing you to sort the uploaded images via drag and drop and so  
on.

Impossible without js.

I'm pretty sure that the only reason you never heard "a single example" is  
because you always refuse to accept those examples as valid ones. 

Re: [Trisquel-users] purism reverse engineering

[onpon4]

I have seen no indication anywhere that it is PGP. Just that it's strong. I  
don't know what algorithm they're using.


> the key on the computer is a public key, which has not been made public?

The public key is only capable of verifying the signature. It can't actually  
sign anything. This is the whole point of signature cryptography. Anyone can  
verify, but only one person can sign. If you could figure out the private key  
from the public key, then it wouldn't be good cryptography.


> The public key you cannot remove?

The software that checks for a signature is in a ROM. You cannot change it.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Mission impossible: Family privacy

[helloworld]

On 2017-05-27 10:07, noordinaryspi...@gmail.com wrote:




Let's try this again from email:

Then propose the 50$ or 100$ to read them and make you a small resume of 
it.


My adult children read both of these as teens because they wanted to, 
not because they were mandatory or because I paid them. Also Brave New 
World and Animal Farm.


I only recently discovered Dave Grossman, but John has read him as an 
adult. Griselda-Beatriz has read War is a Racket as a semi-adult (she 
got her high school diploma from Beach High http://beachhigh.education/ 
early and started college at fifteen).


As jules_verne pointed out downthread:

< But did it work properly? Did they really learned about the message 
you was trying to give?


Yea, I'm embarrassed, but truth is going to help GNUbahn better than 
pretty words and theories.


John is a die-hard windoze user. I'm guessing it is because of gaming 
and his career and school responsibilities and just the way he is wired.


Griselda-Beatriz is wannabe open sores. She dual boots windoze and 
Ubuntu or else talks about how much she wants to use Ubuntu and how 
unfair it is that she "can't". She received a very nice scholarship to a 
great grad school this year, but since the school didn't offer a degree 
in her preferred major, she did some exploring and unschooly John Holt 
inspired stuff that included taking IT classes and ultimately led her 
somewhere else.


She suggested that I read Jaron Lanier and pretty much ignored my 
suggestion that she read rms.


Both of them have settled for free tech support from mommy when they 
couldn't afford paid professional customer service. They were fairly 
convincing while they were inwardly rolling their eyes and wishing I 
would shut up so they could turn on the TV and pick the lint out of 
their belly buttons.


So were my parents. After all the work I put into their computers and 
their education, I recently received and email from my dad suggesting 
that I write my own encryption program because data mining for 
advertising purposes is such big business that he "wouldn't trust any 
encryption program unless it's offered on Ubuntu or some other Linux 
(sic) platform."


Family dynamics come into play, of course. My late sister was "the smart 
one" and I was the cute little Shirley Temple lookalike with the lovely 
blonde curls that turned brown when I was eight and grey when I was 38 
but the script had already been written by then and I could only play 
the part in which I had been cast.


Parenthood is hard, GNUbahn. I commend you for doing the best you can 
and for having the courage to put this out there and ask for help. I put 
a lot of weight on what the teens and young adults have said on this 
thread because they are the real experts.


A wise person once asked if it is harder to be the parent of a child or 
the child of a parent. Both have been challenging for my illustrious 
self. I gain wisdom from the teens and young adults in both aspects of 
my personal life.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Mission impossible: Family privacy

[noordinaryspider]

[Trisquel-users] usb wifi devices compatible with debain 8 64bit main?

[svhaab]

Can I get an usb wifi card which will run on debian 64bit main? Thank you.

Re: [Trisquel-users] purism reverse engineering

[svhaab]

I read about this and I cannot get it right. About pgp keys, the key on the  
computer is a public key, which has not been made public? The public key you  
cannot remove? If you could or if you had the public key, with some  
probability you would be able to reverse engineer the intel me software and  
install the reverse engineered version of the software?

Re: [Trisquel-users] AMD Is apparently taking requests for feedback from community.

[onpon4]

The way you're responding to the FSF's answer is self-entitled. I'm sorry,  
but I think the FSF's answer was completely adequate. AMD insinuated that  
they *might* make some *future* AMD CPU work with Coreboot. We have no idea  
whether or not they will actually do this, and if they do, whether or not  
their coreboot support will just be shimboot like Intel's is. It would not be  
appropriate for the FSF to be a free advertiser for AMD just so they can get  
people to beg for cooperation. All the FSF needs to do to encourage AMD to  
make freedom-respecting hardware is have the RYF certification system.  
Everything else is in AMD's hands.


If AMD decides to join us, then great!

If not, then we'll just continue along as we did before. We don't need AMD's  
cooperation. We can make do with ARM and other non-x86 systems in the  
long-term. We just want AMD's cooperation because x86 is convenient for  
high-power applications (e.g. gaming) in the short-term.

Re: [Trisquel-users] AMD Is apparently taking requests for feedback from community.

[svhaab]

>- point the public to a clearly listed location to provide feedback (an
email address, a website form page, a social media target account, etc.).
Even without the website widget, an ordinary email address would be ideal
for letting everyone send their own sincere request for free software CPU
firmware.
- briefly list a few reasons in plain language why you think all computer
users will benefit from having gratis CPU code, even if they can't program.
I think this is an interesting project and a good opportunity to clearly
>convey why you think the public should join your effort.
Are you teaching me how to shape an email campaign?


>I think AMD's request for feedback should be taken at face value until and
unless it proves to be something other than AMD soliciting feedback. I
wouldn't think AMD's offer to consider feedback (implied in soliciting
>feedback) is a scam without evidence.
I cannot provide evidence. People have the capability of lying. You cannot  
always prove if they do. Amd has an uninterrupted track of non libre  
mainboards. Why suddenly a change of mind? If amd is asked about releasing  
the software in question and if amd does not want to do so, amd may not  
answer, may answer no, facing the matter of arguing a no or as a pacifier say  
maybe.
I find it naive to believe amd when they say they will disclose the software  
in question and enable the computer owner to install the software he chooses.


>you're asking them for a favor
No. I informed them in case they were not informed and I suggested some  
actions. Fsf has not a smaller interest than I, in getting the source code  
and encryption keys in question.



>People independently operate their own websites, email, and so on so one
has to convince them it's worth promoting asking AMD to free the source
code for the CPUs they manufacture. Part of convincing them is clearly,
completely, and accurately describing what you want them to do for the
cause and why. Everyone (including the FSF) are busy with many projects and
you're asking them for a favor (essentially) so it's wise to be forgiving
of misunderstanding. The FSF's imprimatur is important but optional; we can
>all work independently of them.

>However an email campaign and a website widget are things you can do on
your own (I consider the widget to be optional), and the endorsements of
>the FSF and Ed Snowden aren't required.
You believe every email send to amd matters. I do not. It is safe to say, amd  
has received a small number of email on the matter. I am sure it has had no  
impact on amd. To be noticed an email campaign has to provide big numbers in  
a short time frame. A higher success rate requires coordination and well  
known proponents. Would 10 million people every day close their fb account if  
a demand was not meet by fb, I think fb would display some reaction. Can you  
start that campaign? Again you would be naive if you think you can.

>Your initial email to campaigns [at] fsf [dot] org struck me as vague
No. Fsf knows what an email campaign is. I only clarified in my second email,  
because I did not want fsf to be able to claim fsf did not understand what I  
already wrote them.

Fsf has not responded on my second email.

>demanding

That is correct. I do not find my phrasing rude. I was underlining that fsf  
should act while the matter was having Snowden's attention and maybe was on  
amd's agenda. I could have phrased it better. I assumed fsf would be able to  
understand, that a fast reaction would be beneficial from what I wrote.
Now there has been the matter about intel me's being not secure. I have  
noticed no reaction from fsf, have you?



>FSF) are busy
Correct. Then fsf should write me, they are busy.
Fsf has stated the most important task is to get libre software consumer  
electronics. There is a lot of libre software. Very little libre software  
consumer electronics. That contradicts fsf not acting on this matter.


For my part I am doing nothing further. Maybe there should be an email  
campaign towards fsf.


Fsf has to endure criticism.
I found the standard of fsf's response being to low. I cannot provide  
documentation but it is likely having to do with not enough resources. 

Re: [Trisquel-users] Ethical Javascript Reference

[davidpgil]

Out of all the responses, I like your the most. A good solution for a problem 
made too complex.

- Original Message -
From: jorgesu...@freakspot.net
To: "trisquel-users" 
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2017 10:53:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Trisquel-users] Ethical Javascript Reference

The other day a was making a survey. In the first block of question, you  
would have to put your personal information (age, number of sons, staff like  
that). Then there is a radio button you must check if you are student or not.  
If you check yes, the questions of the student appear; else questions of a  
worker. That works with JavaScript, concretely jQuery, and it's LibreJS  
compatible. But I, as a competent web developer, have to make sure the form  
works well for people with JavaScript disabled, so I use the  tag, and, only  
for people who doesn't use JS, show all questions and change the name of the  
question  by writting (answer if you're a student or answer only if you're a  
worker). But anyway, I could have used another solution with PHP.

The web would work very nicely without JS. The websites would load more  
quickly and it would be more difficult to track users.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Ethical Javascript Reference

[jorgesumle]

The other day a was making a survey. In the first block of question, you  
would have to put your personal information (age, number of sons, staff like  
that). Then there is a radio button you must check if you are student or not.  
If you check yes, the questions of the student appear; else questions of a  
worker. That works with JavaScript, concretely jQuery, and it's LibreJS  
compatible. But I, as a competent web developer, have to make sure the form  
works well for people with JavaScript disabled, so I use the  tag, and, only  
for people who doesn't use JS, show all questions and change the name of the  
question  by writting (answer if you're a student or answer only if you're a  
worker). But anyway, I could have used another solution with PHP.


The web would work very nicely without JS. The websites would load more  
quickly and it would be more difficult to track users.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Ethical Javascript Reference

[onpon4]

> It is impossible to create modern web apps with all of the functionality  
users nowadays expect without using javascript (or a similar language that  
would raise the same concerns).


I have seen this claim time and time again, and never once has anyone  
provided any example of a needed JavaScript functionality for websites. I'm  
sorry, things like Google Docs don't count. Those shouldn't be embedded onto  
Web pages. The user should be downloading them, saving them, and running them  
like any other program on their computer. Even in the case of something like  
Diaspora, it should be a client program no different in principle from an  
email client, and any Web-based interface should be minimal and usable  
without JavaScript. If client-side JavaScript is required for something,  
don't include it. Put it in the client program.


> Everybody who argues against that is somehow stuck in the nineties.

I never used the Web in the nineties and JavaScript was always, to my  
knowledge, a part of my experience on the Web. This here is nothing more than  
an appeal to novelty, anyway. A bad design is a bad design, regardless of how  
new or old it is.


> This issue could be solved by the browser.

It could be, but it hasn't been. Would you like to do the legwork? My article  
also outlines what a browser would need to do to make libre JavaScript code  
on the Web acceptable. A simple Firefox extension should do the trick.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Ethical Javascript Reference

[shiretoko]

It is impossible to create modern web apps with all of the functionality  
users nowadays expect without using javascript (or a similar language that  
would raise the same concerns). Everybody who argues against that is somehow  
stuck in the nineties.

That said, I think it's completely unnecessary to abandon javascript.
Critics of javascript always argue that it gets executed silently without the  
user even knowing or agreeing on it. This issue could be solved by the  
browser. Why not ask for permission everytime a javascript app of siginifcant  
complecity is about to be executed, offer the possibility to check the  
license and review the code? There could be also some kind of mechanism that  
loads the javascript app automatically next time you visit the website,  
checking if the code changed since then.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Ethical Javascript Reference

[jorgesumle]

There is a nice HTML tag that most web developers miss, the  tag. Developers  
should, at least, try to have the same functionality without using JS.


I would consider ethical the JS if it doesn't execute weird things, don't  
interact with any third service that could sell my data (e.g. Google), etc.