[TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
JD writes: II Co 5:10 (perhaps) makes it clear that what we call "spiritual death" includes man in total - and it is for this reason that even his deeds done IN THE BODY will be considered - if he has rejected the reconciliation offered to him (IMO). Disciples of Christ are not so judged. JD jt: This one must have gotten by me - Where do you get the idea that deeds done in the body by Christians are not judged JD? Everyone goes before the "Judgment Seat of Christ" including those who profess to serve Him. You may need to set that"Positional Truth" on the shelf and get your bearings again JD.
Re: [TruthTalk] The LDS Jesus needed to be saved!
DAVEH: Sometimes you simply entice me too much, Kevin. As you know, I feel no need to feed the monster in you that wants to attack my beliefs. Hence, I've avoided responding to your posts for season. However, this one surely has me itching to respond. Wish somebody else were interested in what I'd like to say to in reply! Kevin Deegan wrote: Fact is the LDS Jesus falls an INFINITE amount short of the Jesus of the Bible! The Jesus of the Bible is NOT, was NEVER LACKING anything! Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth ALL the FULLNESS of the Godhead bodily. The Jesus of the Bible has ALL Power to Save! Always has had that power did not earn that power. Jesus of the bible is not a Saved being but is the SAVIOR! Jesus of the Bible did not have to gain ETERNAL LIFE as ALL LIFE already resides in the Person of the CREATOR of LIFE Jesus Christ! The Character and person of the Jesus Christ of the BIBLE is drastically different from that ofthe BoM Jesus, they can not be the same person. Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Looks like the Mormon Jesus is not eternal in any sense of the word. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree, Judy. We believe one who is created can be eternal. Just as you, a created person, will become eternal once you obtain eternal life, so is Jesus eternal even though he was created by his Father in Heaven. Now.if on the other hand, you die and stay deadthen you would not be eternal. Jesus arose from the dead, never to die againhence, he is eternal. Does that make sense? Judy Taylor wrote: Kevin what in the world is this?? Looks like the Mormon Jesus is not eternal in any sense of the word. This is some patchwork gospel and it is even endorsed by their President. Shows the danger of going outside of God's own revelation for understanding When we sow impatience we reap confusion. On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bruce McConkie confesses that "Christ... is a saved being."McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 257. The official student manual, Doctrines of the Gospel, teaches that "the plan of salvation which he [Elohim] designed was to save his children, Christ included; neither Christ nor Lucifer could of themselves save anyone." Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Doctrines of the Gospel, Student Manual Salt Lake City, UT: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint, 1986, p. 15. The same manual also quotes the tenth president and prophet, Joseph Fielding Smith, on the subject: The Savior did not have a fullness [of deity] at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking in which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words, he had not received the fullness until he got a resurrected body. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Doctrines of the Gospel, Student Manual Salt Lake City, UT: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint, 1986 pp. 9-10 Pres,Benson, "Jesus was a God in the pre-mortal existence," He was still imperfect and lacking certain necessary things. Benson, Teachings, p. 6. McConkie taught: "These laws [of salvation], instituted by the father, constitute the gospel of God, which gospel is the plan by which all of his spirit children, Christ included, may gain eternal life." McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 2:215 "Jesus Christ is the Son of God He came to earth to work out his own salvation." McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:238 "by obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God." McConkie, Mormon Doctrine -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
You stand against the spirit of unity and function as if love of the brethren was a meaningless concept. Jd-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:50:52 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 No needto put anyone "out" JD. The Word of God is divisive and people who are not willing to do things His way get offended and eventually separate themselves. That is, unless there is a compromising preacher who wants to please ppl more than he wants to please God. jt On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:11:14 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Legalists, when "holding office" in the Church of Right Teaching, do IN FACT require agreement on (their) pet issues or you are out. Such happens every week of every yearin the U.S. JD From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com Since I've been accused of being one of the God manipulators - might I put my 2 cents in here please. Let me say that I am not requiring anything of anyone. So far as I'm concerned you Gary and everyone else can do whatever they want - but your blood will not be on my hands, nor on that of anyone else who has tried to speak truth to you. Those who reject truth judge themselves as unworthy and eventually God Himself gives them over to strong delusion so that they might believe the lie. jt On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:41:15 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' ||
Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
Indeed -- it does appear that my source is somewhat off. And I paid $14.99 for the dern thing. I stand corrected JD -Original Message-From: Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:52:40 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth! DAVEH: Your numbers seem a little low, John. How old are they? Here's one from 3 years ago that is a bit higher..http://www.religioscope.com/info/notes/2002_020_US_church_stat.htmAnd here is another that is from just a few months agohttp://news.ucc.org/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=72Itemid=54[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI - The MormonChurch is the 8t largest denom in the US with 2, 787,000 adherents. Churches of Christ in 9th with 2,503,000 members. Within the US, growth rates for bothgroups are nearly flat line.In foreign countries, however, Mormons have a very strong presence (somewhere around 11 to 13 million) will the Churches of Christ have only a few hundred thousands. I mention C of C because of the association this church has with the beginnings of the Mormon church (IMO). JD-Original Message-From: Terry Clifton wabbits1234@earthlink.netTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:32:06 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainer: You can prove anything you want with statistics. During the year 2004, 3 new Mormon temples were dedicated, 2 re-dedicated, 0 were taken down, 119 in operation at end of year, with ten more in various stages of planning or building. Converts baptized were 241, 239. Total membership as of December 31, 2004, 12, 275,822, up about 3 million from 1998. New stake buildings, new ward buildings always being built, re-built etc, none taken down or destroyed that I am aware of. All church meeting houses are crowded, some with three wards using alternate time schedules, most with at least two wards doubling up. Sounds like progress to me. ==For a crowd like that you need a wide road.-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
A true faith reflects REALITY! deegan et al: Faith IS our reality (substance and evidence). God is my reality because I believe this to be true. The B I B L E is the book for me because I believe it to be. The Spirit indwells my life because I believe this to be. My faith is circular in nature, passionate at its core, unprovable to those who care not to believe and perfectly acceptable to those who do. Was it Lance who said something in the order of " I believe, therefore I will understand" ?? Strictly speaking, we are all in the same boat as that of our Mormon friends. Each of us here on TT has chosen to believe in something.Each of us would love to stand up and say, " I can prove this to be right" but nothing we believe about God and His Christ is provable outside the realm of faith. Does that set us apart from the scientist who keeps on believing that "we are closer to a discovery than at any time in the past." Or the mathematician who depends on "truths" that he cannot prove (postulates) but MUST ACCEPT before he can do any meaningful research or the tycoon who surrounds himself with people who claim to be his friends -- something he will never know for sure because he has all that money.So he believes. In our world, there is much more to do with faith than "reality" when it comes to the foundation of a number of systems perhaps all systems. Einstein believed in a TOE because he believed all of the universe (big and small) came from a single source. Faith. Hawkin has continued the same search because of faith faith in Einstein. Every time a car passes me going south while I am going north -- faith has been played out. Blind faith. Those who fly exercise faith before anything else occurs.That's why I drive. The last customer I had, paidmea large amount of moneybefore I did a lick of work -- faith. I trust that he will make the final pay because I will be done with the job with no leverage to make him pay --- faith. I could go on and on and on. Faith is much more the reality than "reality." Those who look down their noses at the believer are, themselves, just as assuredly believers. Nothing in this world goes forward without faith. I pity the fool who does not believe for he can truly accomplish NOTHINg. JD JD
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
As I see it, they didn't. "Death" in Genesis only refers to physical death. I cannot think of anything that book that conflicts with that statement.JD jt: Well here we go propagating the same error all over again. Are you saying that God didn't mean what He said? He told Adam THE DAY you eat you shall surely die, not 960 yrs down the road. Also a day is defined in Genesis lest we get to the 1,000 yr day speculations. Is God like a human parent who threatens but does not doanything? JT I am saying that God, in His grace, changed His mind. Jere 18 makes it clear that He can do such. Could you help me find the reference in the OT when the writer finally got around to meaning something other than the the inclusive of physical death? Is it not true that our bodies will be raised on that last day, transformed and (for some) presented with death in the "lake of fire?" That death includes the whole man - body, soul mind and spirit. I am kinda of like DM on this one -- the more I think about it, the better I like it. JD -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 01:43:47 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:52:00 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:1. No one is talking about corpse or cadaver. jt: Your friend has spoken of both in the past JD, you must have overlooked it. Ask him. Let's put some money on it Judy. No one is talking about cadaver's. but monologue if you prefer. 2. Bill's point is that "spiritual death" is a term not found in the Bible although such wording was available to the various authors. jt: What kind of a death does scripture refer to then - How did Adam die that day in the garden when he disobeyed God? It wasn't physical and it wasn't intellectual. As I see it, they didn't. "Death" in Genesis only refers to physical death. I cannot think of anything that book that conflicts with that statement. jt: Well here we go propagating the same error all over again. Are you saying that God didn't mean what He said? He told Adam THE DAY you eat you shall surely die, not 960 yrs down the road. Also a day is defined in Genesis lest we get to the 1,000 yr day speculations. Is God like a human parent who threatens but does not doanything? 3. II Co 5:10 (perhaps) makes it clear that what we call "spiritual death" includes man in total - and it is for this reason that even his deeds done IN THE BODY will be considered - if he has rejected the reconciliation offered to him (IMO). Disciples of Christ are not so judged. JD jt: Only problem is that the total man did not die JD; he was still able to understand simple directions and hecontinued as a living - breathing human being. What he lost was his relationship with God who is a spirit. The total man is dead already unless he uses what is already a part of his being to live the kind of life that validates what is pure and set apart in terms of lifestyle (God at work within to both will and accomplish ) Our choice RIGHT NOW, RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE, is between life and death. Every rich man, every whore, every legalist, every drugie has the same choice life and death. I know some who have made the connection (via repentance) and are alive because they are on the right path, as it were -- moving away from that wh ich so easily besets them while (in Christ) being viewed as beyond judgment. EVERYTHING about them - their mind, soul, spirit and body --- improves because of their joint pa rticipation with the Spirit. JD jt: I have no problem with the above JD; there is a lot to be said for moving along on the right pat so long as it's the narrow road that leads to life. From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] One or two more things to consider in this ongoing thread about "spiritual death" - Since some believe this term to be unscriptural and/or metaphoric in nature - should we first run it by some theologians to make sure we have it right? The answer is NO! It is totally unprofitable to take the word "dead" out of it's scriptural setting to look for a man inspired doctrinal interpretation because scripture has organic unity, it is one growth with spirit and life which testifies to the one Spirit breathing through all the different authors. 1. Does dead (in trespass and sin) mean corpse or cadaver like death so that it is impossible for ppl in this condition to understand or to hear God? No. At the time of the fall Adam heard when God spoke to him and he understood why God made a covering of animal skin and told him to offer a lamb from the flock. (Genesis) God told unbelieving Israel "Come now and let us reason together (Isa 1:18); He would not waste time reasoning with a spiritually dead cadaver who could not respond to truth. Jesus put responsibility on the unregenerate to enter at the strait gate (Matt 7:14) - why arn't more saved? Why arn't all saved? The bible says because
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
There is a ton ofscripture ont his one, Judy, but it is late and I need my beauty sleep. JD-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:01:28 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death JD writes: II Co 5:10 (perhaps) makes it clear that what we call "spiritual death" includes man in total - and it is for this reason that even his deeds done IN THE BODY will be considered - if he has rejected the reconciliation offered to him (IMO). Disciples of Christ are not so judged. JD jt: This one must have gotten by me - Where do you get the idea that deeds done in the body by Christians are not judged JD? Everyone goes before the "Judgment Seat of Christ" including those who profess to serve Him. You may need to set that"Positional Truth" on the shelf and get your bearings again JD.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Guess we will have to wait until Jesus Himself separates the sheep from the goats. Then we will know for sure who is the "good and faithful servant" and who is deceiving others and being deceived themselves because no artificial fruit will stand before him with whom we have to do - Who can endure the day of His coming and who shall stand when He appeareth? jt. . On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:05:31 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A true faith reflects REALITY! deegan et al: Faith IS our reality (substance and evidence). God is my reality because I believe this to be true. The B I B L E is the book for me because I believe it to be. The Spirit indwells my life because I believe this to be. My faith is circular in nature, passionate at its core, unprovable to those who care not to believe and perfectly acceptable to those who do. Was it Lance who said something in the order of " I believe, therefore I will understand" ?? Strictly speaking, we are all in the same boat as that of our Mormon friends. Each of us here on TT has chosen to believe in something.Each of us would love to stand up and say, " I can prove this to be right" but nothing we believe about God and His Christ is provable outside the realm of faith. Does that set us apart from the scientist who keeps on believing that "we are closer to a discovery than at any time in the past." Or the mathematician who depends on "truths" that he cannot prove (postulates) but MUST ACCEPT before he can do any meaningful research or the tycoon who surrounds himself with people who claim to be his friends -- something he will never know for sure because he has all that money.So he believes. In our world, there is much more to do with faith than "reality" when it comes to the foundation of a number of systems perhaps all systems. Einstein believed in a TOE because he believed all of the universe (big and small) came from a single source. Faith. Hawkin has continued the same search because of faith faith in Einstein. Every time a car passes me going south while I am going north -- faith has been played out. Blind faith. Those who fly exercise faith before anything else occurs.That's why I drive. The last customer I had, paidmea large amount of moneybefore I did a lick of work -- faith. I trust that he will make the final pay because I will be done with the job with no leverage to make him pay --- faith. I could go on and on and on. Faith is much more the reality than "reality." Those who look down their noses at the believer are, themselves, just as assuredly believers. Nothing in this world goes forward without faith. I pity the fool who does not believe for he can truly accomplish NOTHINg. JD JD
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Well then get back to me when you are beautified JD and we can talk about it :) On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:24:21 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is a ton ofscripture ont his one, Judy, but it is late and I need my beauty sleep. JDFrom: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD writes: II Co 5:10 (perhaps) makes it clear that what we call "spiritual death" includes man in total - and it is for this reason that even his deeds done IN THE BODY will be considered - if he has rejected the reconciliation offered to him (IMO). Disciples of Christ are not so judged. JD jt: This one must have gotten by me - Where do you get the idea that deeds done in the body by Christians are not judged JD? Everyone goes before the "Judgment Seat of Christ" including those who profess to serve Him. You may need to set that"Positional Truth" on the shelf and get your bearings again JD.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Wow! Ineresting, also.But what did you think of my posted comments below? Jd-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:25:55 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter' Guess we will have to wait until Jesus Himself separates the sheep from the goats. Then we will know for sure who is the "good and faithful servant" and who is deceiving others and being deceived themselves because no artificial fruit will stand before him with whom we have to do - Who can endure the day of His coming and who shall stand when He appeareth? jt. . On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:05:31 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A true faith reflects REALITY! deegan et al: Faith IS our reality (substance and evidence). God is my reality because I believe this to be true. The B I B L E is the book for me because I believe it to be. The Spirit indwells my life because I believe this to be. My faith is circular in nature, passionate at its core, unprovable to those who care not to believe and perfectly acceptable to those who do. Was it Lance who said something in the order of " I believe, therefore I will understand" ?? Strictly speaking, we are all in the same boat as that of our Mormon friends. Each of us here on TT has chosen to believe in something.Each of us would love to stand up and say, " I can prove this to be right" but nothing we believe about God and His Christ is provable outside the realm of faith. Does that set us apart from the scientist who keeps on believing that "we are closer to a discovery than at any time in the past." Or the mathematician who depends on "truths" that he cannot prove (postulates) but MUST ACCEPT before he can do any meaningful research or the tycoon who surrounds himself with people who claim to be his friends -- something he will never know for sure because he has all that money.So he believes. In our world, there is much more to do with faith than "reality" when it comes to the foundation of a number of systems perhaps all systems. Einstein believed in a TOE because he believed all of the universe (big and small) came from a single source. Faith. Hawkin has continued the same search because of faith faith in Einstein. Every time a car passes me going south while I am going north -- faith has been played out. Blind faith. Those who fly exercise faith before anything else occurs.That's why I drive. The last customer I had, paidmea large amount of moneybefore I did a lick of work -- faith. I trust that he will make the final pay because I will be done with the job with no leverage to make him pay --- faith. I could go on and on and on. Faith is much more the reality than "reality." Those who look down their noses at the believer are, themselves, just as assuredly believers. Nothing in this world goes forward without faith. I pity the fool who does not believe for he can truly accomplish NOTHINg. JD JD
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
When I get in from work sometime tomorrow afternoon or evening, I will respond -- even if I am still ugly. Night night. Jd-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:28:53 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death Well then get back to me when you are beautified JD and we can talk about it :) On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:24:21 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is a ton ofscripture ont his one, Judy, but it is late and I need my beauty sleep. JDFrom: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD writes: II Co 5:10 (perhaps) makes it clear that what we call "spiritual death" includes man in total - and it is for this reason that even his deeds done IN THE BODY will be considered - if he has rejected the reconciliation offered to him (IMO). Disciples of Christ are not so judged. JD jt: This one must have gotten by me - Where do you get the idea that deeds done in the body by Christians are not judged JD? Everyone goes before the "Judgment Seat of Christ" including those who profess to serve Him. You may need to set that"Positional Truth" on the shelf and get your bearings again JD.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
DAVEH: What are you trying to do, Johncommit TruthTalkicide??? :-) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Strictly speaking, we are all in the same boat as that of our Mormon friends. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
The same Bill who wrote: "I also know that I am not as good a communicator as I want to be and ought to be, and so I keep trying to better my skills in that area and admit in the meantime my deficiencies." Now writes: On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:02:59 -0600 "Bill Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yeah, John, I used the term "cadaver" in a metaphorical senseto point out the absurdity of thinking that spiritually dead humans coulddecide to respond to matters of spiritual importance. If their spirit is literally dead, they would not have the capability of making such choices.I said something like, How can one who is spiritually dead make a free-will determination to believe and hence be born again, so as to be made alive? Cadaverscan notmakechoices, let alone act upon them.That set off fire storm of false accusations from the one among us who lacks the ability to determine whenlanguage is meant to be takenliterally and when it is metaphorical in its thrust; hence the charge that I thought Jesus and Paul to be referring tocorpsesand physically dead bodies. Not hardly! So rock on, John. You're on the right track. Bill jt: Nothing wrong with my understanding of Biblical language Bill but your "deficiencies" make it extremely difficult to communicate in this arena. Inthe past I have made the same pointsover and over and overyet apparently you can not or will notsee. Spiritual death has nothing whatsoever to do with cadavers and corpsesand apparently spiritual death is absent fromthe writings you are attempting to synthesize. However, it is a scriptural reality and when we want to understandscripture we need togo to scripture and allow the Holy Spirit lead us into Truth or we will be forever learning and never apprehending.
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Satan comes as an angel of light deceiving with miracles also. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 7:04 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death I do not believe that miracels prove one to be a disciple -- but I do beleive that every good and perfect gift comes from the Father of Lights. JD -Original Message- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:17:08 -0500 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Miracles or occultism? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death In a message dated 7/27/2005 8:54:23 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I?m glad you agree Blaine. I await your born again experience with anticipation. izzy That happened, as I remember it, when some of my relatives gathered together one night and recounted spiritual experiences, miracles etc, they had seen or participated in. I have never been the same since. I knew Mormonism was true.:) Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:22:23 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As I see it, they didn't. "Death" in Genesis only refers to physical death. I cannot think of anything that book that conflicts with that statement.JD jt: I can JD - Look at the "mystery of godliness" in the 2nd Adam (1 Timothy 3:16) God was manifested in the flesh Justified or vindicated in the spirit Why if the death was physicalin the garden wasn't he justified in the flesh? We are propagating the same error all over again. You are saying that God didn't mean what He said when He told Adam THE DAY you eat you shall surely die, not 960 yrs down the road. Note:A day is defined in Genesis lest we get to the 1,000 yr day speculations. Is God likehuman parents who threaten but don't follow through? jd: I am saying that God, in His grace, changed His mind. Jere 18 makes it clear that He can do such. jt: When you are God you can do anything you want but why? What evidence do you have that he changed his mind? In Jeremiah 18:8 He only relents on condition that they repent. jd: Could you help me find the reference in the OT when the writer finally got around to meaning something other than the inclusive of physical death? jt: AE lost fellowship with God when they sinned and both were banished fromHisgarden - By Genesis 6:3 the gulf had gotten so wide that God is saying "My Spirit shall notstrive with man forever for he is flesh" and man's days were shortenedto 120yrs (they are even less now).The statement "he is flesh" here does not mean "he is a physical body" jd: Is it not true that our bodies will be raised on that last day, transformed and (for some) presented with death in the "lake of fire?" jt: Yes, everyone will be raised on the last day, some to life eternal and others to everlasting death. jd: That death includes the whole man - body, soul mind and spirit. jt:The object is for the soul to besaved from God'swrathJD which is against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men and the redeemed will have a transformed body; no guarantee that it is just like the one you have right now The disciples did not recognize Jesus on the road to Emmaus and when he appears to John the beloved in the book of Revelation the one who once leaned on his breast is terrified and falls on his face. jd: I am kinda of like DM on this one -- the more I think about it, the better I like it. jt: Why? What's so great about the body you have now? judytThere are two C's in the christian lifeEither I am changing daily to be more like ChristOr I am being chastised by Him
Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Must See T.V: One Nation Under God
Thanks for the heads up. Jd-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:30:04 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Must See T.V: One Nation Under God I have not yet seen this film, but I think it might be worth our time to watch. It airs on Sunday and other dates around the nation. Check out the link for stations and air times. James Kennedy's organization is the one who helped Chief Justice Roy Moore create and place the Ten Commandments monument in the Alabama Supreme Court Building which was later removed by a federal judge. Peace be with you. David Miller. + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + S P E C I A L A L E R T C E N T E R F O R R E C L A I M I N G A M E R I C A 7/27/05 David, Dr. D. James Kennedy is inviting all our online team members and their friends to join him as he hosts a riveting one-hour television special that will take you back to the very beginnings of our nation. Filmed in such historic locations as Mount Vernon, Williamsburg, and Yorktown, and featuring such scholars as David Barton, Peter Marshall, and more, "One Nation Under God" presents startling and widely unknown evidence about the Christian character of our nation's origin. "One Nation Under God" begins airing this weekend, Saturday, July 30. For your convenience, we are airing this amazing program in multiple markets at different times. To find the time and station that best suits your needs, click here: http://www.crmail.org/public/lib.aspx?lid=1919rid=5402836 "One Nation Under God" counters attempts to remove God from the tapestry of our nation's history by offering compelling evidence that America's very foundation was unquestionably built upon solid biblical ideals! Click on the link above, and be sure to find a time or two when your entire family can watch this incredible program! If you cannot find time to see "One Nation Under God" when it airs on television, click here to purchase your very own VHS or DVD copy for your home library: http://www.crmail.org/public/lib.aspx?lid=1920rid=5402836 + + Stay on top of this and other critical issues: http://www.reclaimamerica.org -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
Since size matters to some in determining the trueness of a church, we must consider that according to these numbers (in the US): 1. The Catholic Church - 67,259,768 2. Southern Baptist Convention - 16,439,603 the Catholic church is 400% truer than the Southern Baptist Convention, and the Southern Baptist Convention is at least 300% truer than the mormons. That makes the RCC a whopping 1300% truer than the LDS! C'mon, guys, you have a long way to go to become the one true church! My point? Size, growth rate, number of members, number of stakes, wards, temples, missionaries, etc, has nothing to do with the truthfulness of the message taught by these man-made establishments. There is only one church, it belongs to Christ, and consists of people who belong to Him...not by tithing, attending services or masses, peforming temple ordnances, learning secret handshakes, taking communion, being baptised, burning candles, buying indulgences, doing any good works, whatever that is, or jumping through any other number of hoops set up by men, either before or after we are saved. We belong to him because we trust in Jesus Christ (the one revealed to us in the Holy Bible, not some false one) for the forgiveness of our sins and we accept the free gift that He has offered. We demonstrate this by doing his will. So, discuss size all you want. Size really doen't matter. What is in the heart of each individual is what matters. Do we truly love and trust Jesus Christ or do we not? Is this evidenced in our lives by our works, our doing his will? Perry From: Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth! Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:52:40 -0700 DAVEH: Your numbers seem a little low, John. How old are they? Here's one from 3 years ago that is a bit higher.. http://www.religioscope.com/info/notes/2002_020_US_church_stat.htm And here is another that is from just a few months ago http://news.ucc.org/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=72Itemid=54 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI - The Mormon Church is the 8t largest denom in the US with 2, 787,000 adherents. Churches of Christ in 9th with 2,503,000 members. Within the US, growth rates for both groups are nearly flat line. In foreign countries, however, Mormons have a very strong presence (somewhere around 11 to 13 million) will the Churches of Christ have only a few hundred thousands. I mention C of C because of the association this church has with the beginnings of the Mormon church (IMO). JD -Original Message- From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:32:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainer: You can prove anything you want with statistics. During the year 2004, 3 new Mormon temples were dedicated, 2 re-dedicated, *0 were taken down*, 119 in operation at end of year, with *ten more in various stages of planning or building*. *_Converts baptized were 241, 239_*. Total membership as of December 31, 2004, 12, 275,822, up about 3 million from 1998. New stake buildings, new ward buildings always being built, re-built etc, */none taken down or destroyed that I am aware of/*. /*All church meeting houses are crowded,*/ some with three wards using alternate time schedules, most with at least two wards doubling up. Sounds like progress to me. == For a crowd like that you need a wide road. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Blainerb--Since I don't fully know what meanings you assign to these two words--Miracles or occultism? I can't help you, I am afraid.I could recount the stories as I heard them, and let you judge for yourself, but something tells me they would be discounted as much as possibleon TT. In a message dated 7/27/2005 5:17:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Miracles or occultism? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death In a message dated 7/27/2005 8:54:23 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I’m glad you agree Blaine. I await your born again experience with anticipation. izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
And you persist in ignoring the facts to your own demise. "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." (Through The Looking-Glass, by Lewis Carroll, chapter 6, page 124.) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't worry about it--sorry to have offended you with the numbers andglory of the upcoming Kingdom Come, where "an innumerable company of angels" will usher in the millennium of Christ's reign. see Hebrews 12:20-25 In a message dated 7/27/2005 4:32:13 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainer: You can prove anything you want with statistics. During the year 2004, 3 new Mormon temples were dedicated, 2 re-dedicated, 0 were taken down, 119 in operation at end of year, with ten more in various stages of planning or building. Converts baptized were 241, 239. Total membership as of December 31, 2004, 12, 275,822, up about 3 million from 1998. New stake buildings, new ward buildings always being built, re-built etc, none taken down or destroyed that I am aware of. All church meeting houses are crowded, some with three wards using alternate time schedules, most with at least two wards doubling up. Sounds like progress to me. ==For a crowd like that you need a wide road. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Signs and Miracles are not indisputable evidence of TRUTH They may in fact, be evidence of FALSEHOOD. EXODUS 7 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Show a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent. And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent. Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. HAVE YOU BEEN DELUDED? 2 Thes 2 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. MK 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. SINCE YOU ARE SO INTERESTED IN SIGNS I was wondering if you could tell us about the SIGNS of your APOSTLES? HOLY BIBLE: Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb--Since I don't fully know what meanings you assign to these two words--Miracles or occultism? I can't help you, I am afraid.I could recount the stories as I heard them, and let you judge for yourself, but something tells me they would be discounted as much as possibleon TT. In a message dated 7/27/2005 5:17:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Miracles or occultism? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death In a message dated 7/27/2005 8:54:23 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Iâm glad you agree Blaine. I await your born again experience with anticipation. izzy Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Bill in Black - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:47 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy is red: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death SNIP As it pertains to the question of "regeneration" and being "born again," the church, and especially the "rivalist" (Revivalist) Yikes! thanks, no offence intended. Perhaps this was one of those Freudian slips :) church in America since the early 19th c., has done much to shift the emphasis of these terms away from their biblical root and source in Jesus Christ, to the activities of individual believers. With this shift has developed a whole new andbiblically foreign way of speaking about matters pertaining to salvation. Such as Perichoresis or Trinity? These actually find their origin back in the 3rd and 4th centuries. But your point is well taken.Much stress has been placed on the "new birth" as an immediatelife-changing religious experience. David touched upon this in his discussion with you in regards to "the sinners prayer" and the vacancy of that practice in the New Testament witness. Im hoping you read my post on that regarding the fact that I was referring to one praying a non-scripted type of prayer to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. The language of "regeneration" is a great case in point. Contemporary Christians use this term to speak of the "conversion experience" and what happens in that event, as if it were often used in the NT in this same capacity; when in actual fact the term is used only twice and neither time in reference to conversion or "born again" experiences. I believe Ive read you using that term, have I not? I probably have, if you are referring to 'regeneration.' But then again, I consider this to be an act of God as set forth in Titus 3, so I'm not treating it as a "born again experience." I don't recall talking in terms of being "born again," but I may have; I would want to check the context.The truth is, theNT does not use the term, as modern evangelicals do, for that which goes on in the "heart" of new converts. It speaks only in terms of the great and vicariousregeneration Book chapter and verse please? Titus 3.4-7 which took place in Jesus Christ in his resurrection, as something which God alone in the Holy Spirit through Christ did for humanity,and it speaks to the last day when the twelve will sit in judgment over Israel, and when all things shall be made newand rewards granted to those who have forsaken all to follow Christ. Yet we are accustomed to using this term in an entirely different way -- in a way that I would suggest has minimal if any referential correspondenceto our conversion experience. Now let's talk about "born again" and what that means in the context in which it was used. The same word that is translated as "again" in John 3.3 and 3.7, is used alsoin John 3.31. But in 3.31 it is translated not as "again" but as"from above": "He who comes from above is above all ..." I believe that this is how John's word needs to be understood in verses 3 and 7, and this even though Nicodemus misinterprets Jesus' use of the word. How could Nicodemus make this mistake? In the Greek this word can mean several things; it can mean "from the beginning"; or "from the first"; or "from above"; or "anew" or "again." Nicodemus understood Jesus to be saying that he needed to be born "again"; therefore his question about returning a second time to his mother's womb. But Jesus was not speaking of being born a second time; he was speaking aboutbeing born "from above"; hence his reply that it takes both a physical birth and a birth of the Spirit to be one who is "born from above." Of course. However the term again was used and should not be swept aside as irrelevant, either.It was used as a translation of John's word. Thequestion is, is it the besttranslation?It is obvious that "again" will not work to translate the same wordin 3.31. Thus, in the context of John 3, I think itbest to stick with the idea of"from above" throughout the entire passage; that is, unless you want to argue that John would use the same word inhissummary statement (verse 31), to mean something other than itmeant when he used it in the mainbody of his narrative. SNIP And so, if we can gather anything through this exchange, weought to conclude that this "born again" phenomenon is not nearly so clear cut and simple as we have been taught to believe. Jesus does not say exactlyhow it is that the "all" were
Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
Blainerb: I read all of the articles, found them very interesting. I am astounded you have so much info readily at hand, or that you take the time to find it, whichever is the case. You are a better source than me for current LDS Church stuff. :) What bothers me is that your perspective is always slanted. You ALWAYS come across as an anti-Mormon activist. You claim on the one hand to be a scientist--but I always thought scientists were supposed to be more objective So much for the ad hominem (sp?) stuff :) The movement of LDS people from older neighborhoods to new subdivisions and/or to Utah County is normal for older areas. This is just a sociological phenomenon that occurs all the time throughout the world. The retention rate problem has a lot of angles that could be considered, but if the average of 37% retention is true, I am inclined to say that is very good. My good friend who lives in Germany tells me the attendance of Protestant churches there is low--he says the churches are for the most part vacated, on Sunday as well as during the week. (I assume this is a universally European phenomenon, from what little I have read otherwise.) When people do attend, they wear cut-offs, levis, etc. However, he said on Easter or Christmas, the attendance goes up dramatically, which is at least a sign that many people believe, just don't attend regularly. The latter could also be true among Mormons--I suggest the rate of retention is much higher than stats say--stats do not always tell the whole story. The LDS Church's "raising the bar" for missionary service is as it states in the article--controversial.As they say, however, it is an attempt to keep the kids out of mischief before they get intolifestyles that may effectively keep them from active membership anyway--a dilemma, it seems. I, myself, have not seen any missionaries refused.All of the active kids I know are preparingfor a mission. Activity seems to be a critical factor, which to a large extent reflects on the parents. Of course, some kids choose not to be active despite parents insistence. They do have the right to choose. In a message dated 7/27/2005 6:15:53 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine: none taken down or destroyed that I am aware of. Now you are aware, or do you prefer to remaining inOZ to reality? http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2886597Avenues wards continue to lose members All that remains is a "for sale" sign on a dirt field.No longer are Mormon families streaming to the wardhouse on Sunday mornings. ...they watched as crews demolished the white concrete structure that once served as the heart of their predominantly LDS community. Declining membership forced the LDS Church to redraw boundaries in 2003, consolidating three stakes, which oversee wards, into two. http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2886596Mormon portion of Utah population steadily shrinking The LDS Church said its count comprises "all members" - including children in LDS families under age 8, when most Mormons are baptized, and nonpracticing members. http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2890645Keeping members a challenge for LDS church http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2890646Unintended consequence of church's 'raising the bar'Diminishing returns: With fewer missionaries going out, converts have slowed as well[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainer: You can prove anything you want with statistics. During the year 2004, 3 new Mormon temples were dedicated, 2 re-dedicated, 0 were taken down, 119 in operation at end of year, with ten more in various stages of planning or building. Converts baptized were 241, 239. Total membership as of December 31, 2004, 12, 275,822, up about 3 million from 1998. New stake buildings, new ward buildings always being built, re-built etc, none taken down or destroyed that I am aware of. All church meeting houses are crowded, some with three wards using alternate time schedules, most with at least two wards doubling up. Sounds like progress to me. In a message dated 7/26/2005 10:48:48 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Keeping members a challenge for LDS churchMormon myth: The belief that the church is the fastest-growing faith in the world doesn't hold up http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_2890645 When the Graduate Center of the City University of New York conducted an American Religious Identification Survey in 2001, it discovered that about the same number of people said they had joined the LDS Church as said they had left it. The CUNY survey reported the church's net growth was zero percent.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
I can make anyone or anything appear evilif I choose to--it is just a matter of which perspective I choose to adopt. If that is so, please give us an example of how the Southern Baptists are evil. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin wrote: You should have said: not wanting to face the facts I ignore them. Blainer: You missed the point. You can give out with all the facts you want, it is your interpretation of the facts that I contend with. You consistently interpret facts with a slanted bias--slanted in favor of putting the LDS Church in the worst possible light. I can make anyone or anything appear evilif I choose to--it is just a matter of which perspective I choose to adopt. In a message dated 7/27/2005 6:21:26 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Not wanting to JUMP to conclusions, I have drawn none. You should have said: not wanting to face the facts I ignore them. Each of us has to face the matter-either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing. President Gordon B. Hinckley. "Loyalty," April Conference, 2003. Everything may be sacrificed in order to maintain the integrity of those essential facts. Thus, if Mormon Enigma reveals information that is detrimental to the reputation of Joseph Smith, then it is necessary to try to limit its influence and that of its authors." - Apostle Dallin Oaks, footnote 28, Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith: Psychobiography and the Book of Mormon, Introduction p. xliii pay no attention to that man behind the curtain! AND As the "Apostle" said âSome things that are true are not very useful.âOR As Apostle Nelson said "Some truths are best left unsaid." OR Apostle Dallin H. Oaks said ""Truth surely exists as an absolute, but our use of truth should be disciplined by other values. ... When truth is constrained by other virtues, the outcome is not falsehood but silence for a season. As the scriptures say, there is âa time to keep silence, and a time to speak.â [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/27/2005 2:13:51 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What conclusions do you draw from Joe's involvement with MAGIC? Blainerb: I have drawn none, since I am not convinced he was into magic to the extent you would have us all believe. As usual, you have assigned meaning to events that are basically shrouded in mystery--perhaps your conclusions are all wrong in the first place. There is no proof they have the meanings you ascribe to them. By the way, Sampson was promised that as long as his hair was not cut, he would have power against his enemies. His hair was like a covenant between him and God, and when the covenant was broken, his powers were weakened. Is this magic? It could easily be said to be such, especially with guys like you around jumping to conclusions. :) Further, JS gavea similarblessing to Orrin Porter Rockwell as wasgiven to Sampson, and since Orrin never allowed his hair to be cut, he was never killed by his enemies, despite being in numerous gun fights with them. I think talismans may have been seen in much the same way by Joseph Smith--a covenant with God. Or maybe he just liked the talisman's artwork. Who knows? Not wanting to JUMP to conclusions, I have drawn none. __ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Blainerb: What you have quoted below is all in keeping with Biblical scripture--what about David and his refusal to go against KingSaul? He even refused to kill Saul when he was given the chance--because Saul was the Lord's ANNOINTED! Read 1 Samuel ch. 24 "Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: but mine hand shall not be upon thee." 1 Samuel 24:13 In a message dated 7/27/2005 6:31:13 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think Quinn was exed for pride--thinking he knew more than the anointed ones who have been called up and chosen to lead the LDS church. Right it is drummed into LDS minds: NEVER CRITICIZE our leaders even if it is true! "It is one thing to depreciate a person who exercises corporate power or even government power. It is quite another thing to criticize or depreciate a person for the performance of an office to which he or she has been called of God. It does not matter that the criticism is true." " As Elder George F. Richards, President of the Council of the Twelve, said in a conference address in April 1947, 'when we say anything bad about the leaders of the Church, whether true or false, we tend to impair their influence and their usefulness and are thus working against the Lord and his cause.' ... The Holy Ghost will not guide or confirm criticism of the Lord's anointed, or of Church leaders, local or general. This reality should be part of the spiritual evaluation that LDS readers and viewers apply to those things written about our history and those who made it." Dallin H. Oaks, "Reading Church History," CES Doctrine and Covenants Symposium, Brigham Young University, 16 Aug. 1985, page 25. also see Dallin H. Oaks, "Elder Decries Criticism of LDS Leaders," quoted in The Salt Lake Tribune, Sunday August 18, 1985, p. 2B “That historian or scholar who delights in pointing out the weaknesses and frailties of present or past leaders destroys faith. A destroyer of faith — particularly one within the Church, and more particularly one who is employed specifically to build faith — places himself in great spiritual jeopardy. He is serving the wrong master, and unless he repents, he will not be among the faithful in the eternities. ... Do not spread disease germs!"- Boyd K. Packer, "The Mantle is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect", 1981, BYU Studies, Vol. 21, No. 3, pp. 259-271 WATCH HOW LDS PUT THE SCRIPTURE ON IT'S HEAD:"Any who are tempted to rake through the annals of history, to use truth unrighteously, or to dig up “facts” with the intent to defame or destroy, should hearken to this warning of scripture: “The righteousness of God [is] revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.” (Rom. 1:17-18.) "I repeat: 'The wrath of God is … against all … who hold the truth in unrighteousness.'"
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
In a message dated 7/27/2005 6:39:19 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Urim and Thummim Was just a SEER STONE as J Fielding Smith said Blainer: The seer stone was used in place of the urim and thummim, but was not actually such. It had similar powers, however. The urim and thummim was a pair of stones, primarily, set in a rim like a pair of eye-glasses. See: Ex. 28:30; Lev. 8:8; Deut 33:88
[TruthTalk] [Fwd: WorldNetDaily Canada, the compatible]
link.net http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45485 WorldNetDaily Canada, the compatible.url Description: Binary data
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
"use truth unrighteously" Could you expound on just how one uses truth unrighteously? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: What you have quoted below is all in keeping with Biblical scripture--what about David and his refusal to go against KingSaul? He even refused to kill Saul when he was given the chance--because Saul was the Lord's ANNOINTED! Read 1 Samuel ch. 24 "Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: but mine hand shall not be upon thee." 1 Samuel 24:13 In a message dated 7/27/2005 6:31:13 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think Quinn was exed for pride--thinking he knew more than the anointed ones who have been called up and chosen to lead the LDS church. Right it is drummed into LDS minds: NEVER CRITICIZE our leaders even if it is true! "It is one thing to depreciate a person who exercises corporate power or even government power. It is quite another thing to criticize or depreciate a person for the performance of an office to which he or she has been called of God. It does not matter that the criticism is true." " As Elder George F. Richards, President of the Council of the Twelve, said in a conference address in April 1947, 'when we say anything bad about the leaders of the Church, whether true or false, we tend to impair their influence and their usefulness and are thus working against the Lord and his cause.' ... The Holy Ghost will not guide or confirm criticism of the Lord's anointed, or of Church leaders, local or general. This reality should be part of the spiritual evaluation that LDS readers and viewers apply to those things written about our history and those who made it." Dallin H. Oaks, "Reading Church History," CES Doctrine and Covenants Symposium, Brigham Young University, 16 Aug. 1985, page 25. also see Dallin H. Oaks, "Elder Decries Criticism of LDS Leaders," quoted in The Salt Lake Tribune, Sunday August 18, 1985, p. 2B âThat historian or scholar who delights in pointing out the weaknesses and frailties of present or past leaders destroys faith. A destroyer of faith â particularly one within the Church, and more particularly one who is employed specifically to build faith â places himself in great spiritual jeopardy. He is serving the wrong master, and unless he repents, he will not be among the faithful in the eternities. ... Do not spread disease germs!"- Boyd K. Packer, "The Mantle is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect", 1981, BYU Studies, Vol. 21, No. 3, pp. 259-271 WATCH HOW LDS PUT THE SCRIPTURE ON IT'S HEAD:"Any who are tempted to rake through the annals of history, to use truth unrighteously, or to dig up âfactsâ with the intent to defame or destroy, should hearken to this warning of scripture: âThe righteousness of God [is] revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.â (Rom. 1:17-18.) "I repeat: 'The wrath of God is ⦠against all ⦠who hold the truth in unrighteousness.'" __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
The angel took them away from Joe because he LOST 116 pages of God's word, they were NOT RESTORED in the "restoration"! How was it that the "God" of Mormonism could be FRUSTRATED in his purpose of translation?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/27/2005 6:39:19 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Urim and Thummim Was just a SEER STONE as J Fielding Smith said Blainer: The seer stone was used in place of the urim and thummim, but was not actually such. It had similar powers, however. The urim and thummim was a pair of stones, primarily, set in a rim like a pair of eye-glasses. See: Ex. 28:30; Lev. 8:8; Deut 33:88__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: WorldNetDaily Canada, the compatible]
Wow! Sounds just like something that Lance would like... He always did say noone could know the truth and/or ppl didn't believe what they thought they believed... How sad for Canada. On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:18:27 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45485As Ferguson defined religious hate, "A key item would have to be a ban on claims of exclusivity. It should be unethical for any RRP [registered religious practitioner] to claim that theirs was the one true religion and believers in anything else or nothing were doomed to fire and brimstone." judytThere are two C's in the christian lifeEither I am changing daily to be more like ChristOr I am being chastised by Him
Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: WorldNetDaily Canada, the compatible]
They will have done JD proud! Ferguson packaged his reformed religious totalitarianism as a guarantee of religious freedoms, arguing his plan, "could also help the general cause of religious freedom by introducing a code of moral practice for religions," he said. "They will never achieve unity, so why not try for compatibility? Can't religious leaders agree to adjust doctrine so all religions can operate within the code?" I told you it comes down to doctrineTerry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45485 __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14939072BRD=1817PAG=461dept_id=222076rfi=6 LDS growth rate is beat by some churchessince 1990, denominations such as the Seventh-day Adventists, Assemblies of God and Pentecostal groups have grown much faster. Perhaps even more telling, the number of Mormons who are considered active members is only about a third of the total or about 4 million people, The Salt Lake Tribune reported in Tuesday editions.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: I read all of the articles, found them very interesting. I am astounded you have so much info readily at hand, or that you take the time to find it, whichever is the case. You are a better source than me for current LDS Church stuff. :) What bothers me is that your perspective is always slanted. You ALWAYS come across as an anti-Mormon activist. You claim on the one hand to be a scientist--but I always thought scientists were supposed to be more objective So much for the ad hominem (sp?) stuff :) The movement of LDS people from older neighborhoods to new subdivisions and/or to Utah County is normal for older areas. This is just a sociological phenomenon that occurs all the time throughout the world. The retention rate problem has a lot of angles that could be considered, but if the average of 37% retention is true, I am inclined to say that is very good. My good friend who lives in Germany tells me the attendance of Protestant churches there is low--he says the churches are for the most part vacated, on Sunday as well as during the week. (I assume this is a universally European phenomenon, from what little I have read otherwise.) When people do attend, they wear cut-offs, levis, etc. However, he said on Easter or Christmas, the attendance goes up dramatically, which is at least a sign that many people believe, just don't attend regularly. The latter could also be true among Mormons--I suggest the rate of retention is much higher than stats say--stats do not always tell the whole story. The LDS Church's "raising the bar" for missionary service is as it states in the article--controversial.As they say, however, it is an attempt to keep the kids out of mischief before they get intolifestyles that may effectively keep them from active membership anyway--a dilemma, it seems. I, myself, have not seen any missionaries refused.All of the active kids I know are preparingfor a mission. Activity seems to be a critical factor, which to a large extent reflects on the parents. Of course, some kids choose not to be active despite parents insistence. They do have the right to choose. In a message dated 7/27/2005 6:15:53 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine: none taken down or destroyed that I am aware of. Now you are aware, or do you prefer to remaining inOZ to reality? http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2886597Avenues wards continue to lose members All that remains is a "for sale" sign on a dirt field.No longer are Mormon families streaming to the wardhouse on Sunday mornings. ...they watched as crews demolished the white concrete structure that once served as the heart of their predominantly LDS community. Declining membership forced the LDS Church to redraw boundaries in 2003, consolidating three stakes, which oversee wards, into two. http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2886596Mormon portion of Utah population steadily shrinking The LDS Church said its count comprises "all members" - including children in LDS families under age 8, when most Mormons are baptized, and nonpracticing members. http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2890645Keeping members a challenge for LDS church http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2890646Unintended consequence of church's 'raising the bar'Diminishing returns: With fewer missionaries going out, converts have slowed as well[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainer: You can prove anything you want with statistics. During the year 2004, 3 new Mormon temples were dedicated, 2 re-dedicated, 0 were taken down, 119 in operation at end of year, with ten more in various stages of planning or building. Converts baptized were 241, 239. Total membership as of December 31, 2004, 12, 275,822, up about 3 million from 1998. New stake buildings, new ward buildings always being built, re-built etc, none taken down or destroyed that I am aware of. All church meeting houses are crowded, some with three wards using alternate time schedules, most with at least two wards doubling up. Sounds like progress to me. In a message dated 7/26/2005 10:48:48 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Keeping members a challenge for LDS churchMormon myth: The belief that the church is the fastest-growing faith in the world doesn't hold up http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_2890645 When the Graduate Center of the City University of New York conducted an American Religious Identification Survey in 2001, it discovered that about the same number of people said they had joined the LDS Church as said they had left it. The CUNY survey reported the
Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
I have said this before, but growth figures presented ina graduate program from Regent College, have the Christian church world wild (non Mormon but including RCC, what is happening in Africa and China) to be growing at the rate of 3000 converts per hour. If growth matters, this figures puts all completing religions to shame -- but Perry is right on, of course. The First Church grew to 6 million plus in the first 100 years (In the Mediterranean boundary) JD -Original Message-From: Charles Perry Locke cpl2602@hotmail.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:01:36 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth! Since size matters to some in determining the "trueness" of a church, we must consider that according to these numbers (in the US):1. The Catholic Church - 67,259,7682. Southern Baptist Convention - 16,439,603the Catholic church is 400% truer than the Southern Baptist Convention, and the Southern Baptist Convention is at least 300% truer than the mormons. That makes the RCC a whopping 1300% truer than the LDS! C'mon, guys, you have a long way to go to become the one true church! My point? Size, growth rate, number of members, number of stakes, wards, temples, missionaries, etc, has nothing to do with the truthfulness of the message taught by these man-made establishments. There is only one church, it belongs to Christ, and consists of people who belong to Him...not by tithing, attending "services" or "masses", peforming temple ordnances, learning secret handshakes, taking communion, being baptised, burning candles, buying indulgences, doing any "good" works, whatever that is, or jumping through any other number of hoops set up by men, either before or after we are "saved". We belong to him because we trust in Jesus Christ (the one revealed to us in the Holy Bible, not some false one) for the forgiveness of our sins and we "accept" the free gift that He has offered. We demonstrate this by doing his will. So, discuss size all you want. Size really doen't matter. What is in the heart of each individual is what matters. Do we truly love and trust Jesus Christ or do we not? Is this evidenced in our lives by our works, our doing his will?PerryFrom: Dave Hansen dave@langlitz.comReply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:52:40 -0700DAVEH: Your numbers seem a little low, John. How old are they? Here's one from 3 years ago that is a bit higher..http://www.religioscope.com/info/notes/2002_020_US_church_stat.htmAnd here is another that is from just a few months agohttp://news.ucc.org/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=72Itemid=54knpraise@aol.com wrote:FYI - The Mormon Church is the 8t largest denom in the US with 2, 787,000 adherents. Churches of Christ in 9th with 2,503,000 members. Within the US, growth rates for both groups are nearly flat line. In foreign countries, however, Mormons have a very strong presence (somewhere around 11 to 13 million) will the Churches of Christ have only a few hundred thousands. I mention C of C because of the association this church has with the beginnings of the Mormon church (IMO). JD -Original Message-From: Terry Clifton wabbits1234@earthlink.netTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:32:06 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!Blainerb473@aol.com wrote: Blainer: You can prove anything you want with statistics. During the year 2004, 3 new Mormon temples were dedicated, 2 re-dedicated, *0 were taken down*, 119 in operation at end of year, with *ten more in various stages of planning or building*. *_Converts baptized were 241, 239_*. Total membership as of December 31, 2004, 12, 275,822, up about 3 million from 1998. New stake buildings, new ward buildings always being built, re-built etc, */none taken down or destroyed that I am aware of/*. /*All church meeting houses are crowded,*/ some with three wards using alternate time schedules, most with at least two wards doubling up. Sounds like progress to me.==For a crowd like that you need a wide road.--~~~Dave Hansen[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.langlitz.com~~~If you wish to receivethings I find interesting,I maintain six email lists...JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Attributing to Satan the things of the Spirit is the unforgiveable sin. ALL miraclesand goodness comes from the Father oflights. Satan is an imposter who was defeated at the Cross. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:14:43 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Satan comes as an angel of light deceiving with miracles also. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 7:04 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death I do not believe that miracles prove one to be a disciple -- but I do beleive that every good and perfect gift comes from the Father of Lights. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:17:08 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Miracles or occultism? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death In a message dated 7/27/2005 8:54:23 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I?m glad you agree Blaine. I await your born again experience with anticipation. izzy That happened, as I remember it, when some of my relatives gathered together one night and recounted spiritual experiences, miracles etc, they had seen or participated in. I have never been the same since. I knew Mormonism was true.:) Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD -Original Message-From: Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:27:34 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Bill in Black - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:47 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy is red: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death SNIP As it pertains to the question of "regeneration" and being "born again," the church, and especially the "rivalist" (Revivalist) Yikes! thanks, no offence intended. Perhaps this was one of those Freudian slips :) church in America since the early 19th c., has done much to shift the emphasis of these terms away from their biblical root and source in Jesus Christ, to the activities of individual believers. With this shift has developed a whole new andbiblically foreign way of speaking about matters pertaining to salvation. Such as Perichoresis or Trinity? These actually find their origin back in the 3rd and 4th centuries. But your point is well taken.Much stress has been placed on the "new birth" as an immediatelife-changing religious experience. David touched upon this in his discussion with you in regards to "the sinners prayer" and the vacancy of that practice in the New Testament witness. I?m hoping you read my post on that regarding the fact that I was referring to one praying a non-scripted type of prayer to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. < O:P> The language of "regeneration" is a great case in point. Contemporary Christians use this term to speak of the "conversion experience" and what happens in that event, as if it were often used in the NT in this same capacity; when in actual fact the term is used only twice and neither time in reference to conversion or "born again" experiences. I believe I?ve read you using that term, have I not? I probably have, if you are referring to 'regeneration.' But then again, I consider this to be an act of God as set forth in Titus 3, so I'm not treating it as a "born again experience." I don't recall talking in terms of being "born again," but I may have; I would want to check the context.The truth is, theNT does not use the term, as modern evangelicals do, for that which goes on in the "heart" of new converts. It speaks only in terms of the great and vicariousregeneration Book chapter and verse please? Titus 3.4-7 which took place in Jesus Christ in his resurrection, as something which God alone in the Holy Spirit through Christ did for humanity,and it speaks to the last day when the twelve will sit in judgment over Israel, and when all things shall be made newand rewards granted to those who have forsaken all to follow Christ. Yet we are accustomed to using this term in an entirely different way -- in a w ay that I would suggest has minimal if any referential correspondenceto our conversion experience. Now let's talk about "born again" and what that means in the context in which it was used. The same word that is translated as "again" in John 3.3 and 3.7, is used alsoin John 3.31. But in 3.31 it is translated not as "again" but as"from above": "He who comes from above is above all ..." I believe that this is how John's word needs to be understood in verses 3 and 7, and this even though Nicodemus misinterprets Jesus' use of the word. How could Nicodemus make this mistake? In the Greek this word can mean several things; it can mean "from the beginning"; or "from the first"; or "from above"; or "anew" or "again." Nicodemus understood Jesus to be saying that he needed to be born "again"; therefore his question about returning a second time to his mother's womb. But Jesus was not speaking of being born a second time; he was speaking aboutbeing born "from above"; hence his reply that it takes both a physical birth and a birth of the Spirit to be one who is "born from above." Of course. However the term ?again? was used and should not be swept aside as irrelevant, either.It was used as a translation of John's word. Thequestion is, is it the besttranslation?It is obvious that "again" will not work to translate the same wordin 3.31. Thus, in the context of John 3, I think itbest to stick with the idea of"from above" throughout the entire passage; that is, unless you want to argue that John would use the same word inhissummary statement (verse 31), to mean something other than itmeant when he used it in the mainbody of his narrativ e. SNIP And so, if we can gather anything through this exchange, weought to conclude that this "born again" phenomenon is not nearly so clear cut and simple as
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Born again is correct.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Nice, base your eternal destiny on a footnote. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual deathDate: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:50:13 -0400Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again."JD-Original Message-From: Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:27:34 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual deathBill in Black- Original Message -From: ShieldsFamilyTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:47 PMSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual deathIzzy is red:From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual deathAs it pertains to the question of "regeneration" and being "born again," the church, and especially the "rivalist" (Revivalist) Yikes! thanks, no offence intended. Perhaps this was one of those Freudian slips :) church in America since the early 19th c., has done much to shift the emphasis of these terms away from their biblical root and source in Jesus Christ, to the activities of individual believers. With this shift has developed a whole new and biblically foreign way of speaking about matters pertaining to salvation. Such as Perichoresis or Trinity? These actually find their origin back in the 3rd and 4th centuries. But your point is well taken. Much stress has been placed on the "new birth" as an immediate life-changing religious experience. David touched upon this in his discussion with you in regards to "the sinners prayer" and the vacancy of that practice in the New Testament witness. I?m hoping you read my post on that regarding the fact that I was referring to one praying a non-scripted type of prayer to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.The language of "regeneration" is a great case in point. Contemporary Christians use this term to speak of the "conversion experience" and what happens in that event, as if it were often used in the NT in this same capacity; when in actual fact the term is used only twice and neither time in reference to conversion or "born again" experiences. I believe I?ve read you using that term, have I not? I probably have, if you are referring to 'regeneration.' But then again, I consider this to be an act of God as set forth in Titus 3, so I'm not treating it as a "born again experience." I don't recall talking in terms of being "born again," but I may have; I would want to check the context. The truth is, the NT does not use the term, as modern evangelicals do, for that which goes on in the "heart" of new converts. It speaks only in terms of the great and vicarious regeneration Book chapter and verse please? Titus 3.4-7 which took place in Jesus Christ in his resurrection, as something which God alone in the Holy Spirit through Christ did for humanity, and it speaks to the last day when the twelve will sit in judgment over Israel, and when all things shall be made new and rewards granted to those who have forsaken all to follow Christ. Yet we are accustomed to using this term in an entirely different way -- in a way that I would suggest has minimal if any referential correspondence to our conversion experience.Now let's talk about "born again" and what that means in the context in which it was used. The same word that is translated as "again" in John 3.3 and 3.7, is used also in John 3.31. But in 3.31 it is translated not as "again" but as "from above": "He who comes from above is above all ..." I believe that this is how John's word needs to be understood in verses 3 and 7, and this even though Nicodemus misinterprets Jesus' use of the word. How could Nicodemus make this mistake? In the Greek this word can mean several things; it can mean "from the beginning"; or "from the first"; or "from above"; or "anew" or "again." Nicodemus understood Jesus to be saying that he needed to be born "again"; therefore his question about returning a second time to his mother's womb. But Jesus was not speaking of being born a second time; he was speaking about being born "from above"; hence his reply that it takes both a physical birth and a birth of the Spirit to be one who is "born from above." Of course. However the term ?again? was used and shouldnot be swept aside as irrelevant, either. It was used as a translation of John's word. The question is, is it the best translation? It is obvious that "again" will not work to translate the same word in 3.31. Thus, in the context of John 3, I think it best to stick with the idea of "from above" throughout the entire passage; that is, unless you want to argue that John would use the same word in his summary statement (verse 31), to mean something other than it meant when he used it in the main body
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Get this down, somehow, deegan. I base my eternal destiny squarely upon Jesus Christ. Call me a heretic for that -- I really do not care. It is pureD ignorant to think that I am not a disciple of Christ and your collection of evidence to the contrary is proof of that surmise. JD-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan openairmission@yahoo.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:32:00 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Nice, base your eternal destiny on a footnote. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual deathDate: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:50:13 -0400Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again."JD-Original Message-From: Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:27:34 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death< BR>Bill in Black- Original Message -From: ShieldsFamilyTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:47 PMSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual deathIzzy is red:From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual deathAs it pertains to the question of "regeneration" and being "born again," the church, and especially the "rivalist" (Revivalist) Yikes! thanks, no offence intended. P erhaps this was one of those Freudian slips :) church in America since the early 19th c., has done much to shift the emphasis of these terms away from their biblical root and source in Jesus Christ, to the activities of individual believers. With this shift has developed a whole new and biblically foreign way of speaking about matters pertaining to salvation. Such as Perichoresis or Trinity? These actually find their origin back in the 3rd and 4th centuries. But your point is well taken. Much stress has been placed on the "new birth" as an immediate life-changing religious experience. David touched upon this in his discussion with you in regards to "the sinners prayer" and the vacancy of that practice in the New Testament witness. I?m hoping you read my post on that regarding the fact that I was referring to one praying a non-scripted type of prayer to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.The language of "regeneration" is a great case in point. Contemporary Christians use this term to speak of the "conversion experience" and what happens in that event, as if it were often used in the NT in this same capacity; when in actual fact the term is used only twice and neither time in reference to conversion or "born again" experiences. I believe I?ve read you using that term, have I not? I probably have, if you are referring to 'regeneration.' But then again, I consider this to be an act of God as set forth in Titus 3, so I'm not treating it as a "born again experience." I don't recall talking in terms of being "born again," but I may have ; I would want to check the context. The truth is, the NT does not use the term, as modern evangelicals do, for that which goes on in the "heart" of new converts. It speaks only in terms of the great and vicarious regeneration Book chapter and verse please? Titus 3.4-7 which took place in Jesus Christ in his resurrection, as something which God alone in the Holy Spirit through Christ did for humanity, and it speaks to the last day when the twelve will sit in judgment over Israel, and when all things shall be made new and rewards granted to those who have forsaken all to follow Christ. Yet we are accustomed to using this term in an entirely different way -- in a wa y that I would suggest has minimal if any referential correspondence to our conversion experience.Now let's talk about "born again" and what that means in the context in which it was used. The same word that is translated as "again" in John 3.3 and 3.7, is used also in John 3.31. But in 3.31 it is translated not as "again" but as "from above": "He who comes from above is above all ..." I believe that this is how John's word needs to be understood in verses 3 and 7, and this even though Nicodemus misinterprets Jesus' use of the word. How could Nicodemus make this mistake? In the Greek this word can mean several things; it can mean "from the beginning"; or "from the first"; or "from above"; or "anew" or "again." Nicodemus under stood Jesus to be saying that he needed to be born "again"; therefore his question about returning a second time to his mother's womb. But Jesus was not speaking of being born a second time; he was speaking about being born "from above"; hence his reply that it takes both a physical birth and a birth of the Spirit to be one who is "born from above." Of course. However the term ?again? was used and shouldnot be swept aside as
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Well, what do you know. Billy T is right again!! JD-Original Message-From: Charles Perry Locke cpl2602@hotmail.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:02:22 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death I couldn't help but to whip out Zodhiates' "The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament" and look up the meaning of "again" as it is used in John 3:3. I have included a scan of the definition. It speaks specifically John 3:3 in two places.PerryFrom: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual deathDate: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:50:13 -0400Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translatio n and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again."JD-Original Message-From: Bill Taylor wmtaylor@plains.netTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:27:34 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual deathBill in Black- Original Message -From: ShieldsFamilyTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:47 PMSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual deathIzzy is red:From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual deathSNIPAs it pertains to the question of "regeneration" and being "born again," the church, and especially the "rivalist" (Revivalist) Yikes! thanks, no offence intended. Perhaps this was one of those Freudian slips :) church in America since the early 19th c., has done much to shift the emphasis of these terms away from their biblical root and source in Jesus Christ, to the activities of individual believers. With this shift has developed a whole new and biblically foreign way of speaking about matters pertaining to salvation. Such as Perichoresis or Trinity? These actually find their origin back in the 3rd and 4th centuries. But your point is well taken. Much stress has been placed on the "new birth" as an immediate life-changing religious experience. David touched upon this in his discussion with you in regards to "the sinners prayer" and the vacancy of that practice in the New Testament witness. I?m hoping you read my post on that regarding the f act that I was referring to one praying a non-scripted type of prayer to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.The language of "regeneration" is a great case in point. Contemporary Christians use this term to speak of the "conversion experience" and what happens in that event, as if it were often used in the NT in this same capacity; when in actual fact the term is used only twice and neither time in reference to conversion or "born again" experiences. I believe I?ve read you using that term, have I not? I probably have, if you are referring to 'regeneration.' But then again, I consider this to be an act of God as set forth in Titus 3, so I'm not treating it as a "born again experience." I don't recall talking in terms of being "born again," but I may have; I would want to check the context. The truth is, the NT does not use the term, as modern evangelicals do, for that which goes on in the "heart" of new converts. It speaks only in terms of the great and vicarious regeneration Book chapter and verse please? Titus 3.4-7 which took place in Jesus Christ in his resurrection, as something which God alone in the Holy Spirit through Christ did for humanity, and it speaks to the last day when the twelve will sit in judgment over Israel, and when all things shall be made new and rewards granted to those who have forsaken all to follow Christ. Yet we are accustomed to using this term in an entirely different way -- in a way that I would suggest has minimal if any referential correspondence to our conversion experience.Now let's talk about "born again" and what that means in the context in which it was used. The same word that is translated as "again" in John 3.3 and 3.7, is used also in John 3.31. But in 3.31 it is translated not as "again" but as "from above": "He who comes from above is above all ..." I believe that this is how John's word needs to be understood in verses 3 and 7, and this even though Nicodemus misinterprets Jesus' use of the word. How could Nicodemus make this mistake? In the Greek this word can mean several things; it can mean "from the beginning"; or "from the first"; or "from above"; or "anew" or "again." Nicodemus understood Jesus to be saying that he needed to be born "again"; therefore his question about returning a second time to his mother's womb. But Jesus was not speaking of being born a second time; he was speaking about being born "from above"; hence his reply that it takes both a physical birth and a birth of the Spirit to be one who is "born from above." Of course. However the term ?again? was used and shouldnot be swept aside as
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Click here: Press Release - Death Threats from Muslims Students
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
I hear you loud and clear, Terry. From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:37:13 -0500 Just found this note from you, Perry. I don't know where it has been for the last two days. To answer your question, I do not consider all of John's comments to be pitiful. What is pitiful is that Jesus says in so many words is that if you do not obey, you are not one of His, and John says, in so many worfs, Jesus is wrong. Obedience means nothing. Just have faith. Satan knows that Jesus is the Savior, but Satan's disobedience has eliminated him forever from Heaven. It is pitiful that John and many other libs cannot see that simple truth. Terry = Terry, can you take comment on these points one by one and let me know why you think each is pitiful. Thanks. Perry From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:22:24 -0500 Pitiful. === [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: 1.. Such denies the unmeritorious gift of salvation by faith through grace and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God. 2. It does not allow for failure -- we must obey all of the law (cf. #4) 3. It creates a system that is essentially the same as that of the Mosaic Covenant. 4. The blood of Christ, which replaced the continuing sacrifices of bulls and goats, is replaced by by repeated confession of sins --- the disciple being lost until confession is presented and repentance is evidences. 5.It denies that obedience extend from saving and vital faith -- demanding a soteriological value be attached to works, in and of themselves!!! 6.It pronounces that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !! 7. It denies the need for the exchange of faith for righteousness (Rom 4).JD -Original Message- From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:05:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Specifically (if you know), what is the point here? Who denies that we are blessed in following the advice of the Lord? Where, pray tell, is it said that we are not saved until and unless we accomplish this task? Where are those words? (Hint - they are not there). JD === They may not be there in the words you have chosen to use, John, but they are there. Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I tell you? Hint: Faith saves, but fruit is the proof of salvation. You produce fruit by doing as you are told by your Lord.. That is why He is called Lord. He is the guy in charge. We are His slaves. He orders, we obey. Put another way, if you do not do as He says, you are not His. It is important to understand that. Terry - -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
We'll hold our collective breaths Blaine. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 8:07 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth! Don't worry about it--sorry to have offended you with the numbers andglory of the upcoming Kingdom Come, where "an innumerable company of angels" will usher in the millennium of Christ's reign. see Hebrews 12:20-25
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Yes, if you believe JSmith I'd have a hard time believing you. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 8:32 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Blainerb--Since I don't fully know what meanings you assign to these two words--Miracles or occultism? I can't help you, I am afraid.I could recount the stories as I heard them, and let you judge for yourself, but something tells me they would be discounted as much as possibleon TT. In a message dated 7/27/2005 5:17:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Miracles or occultism? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death In a message dated 7/27/2005 8:54:23 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Im glad you agree Blaine. I await your born again experience with anticipation. izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: WorldNetDaily Canada, the compatible]
Truly frightening. This is what happens in a nation where the majority are liberals. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 11:18 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: WorldNetDaily Canada, the compatible] link.net http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45485
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
BT:As it pertains to the question of "regeneration" and being "born again," the church, and especially the "rivalist" (Revivalist) Yikes! thanks, no offence intended. Perhaps this was one of those Freudian slips :) Iz:Yup, probably. :-) BT:The truth is, theNT does not use the term, as modern evangelicals do, for that which goes on in the "heart" of new converts. It speaks only in terms of the great and vicariousregeneration Book chapter and verse please? Titus 3.4-7 Iz: Sorry, Bill, but I couldn't find that "vicarious" word in there anywhere. BT:Izzy, maybe you can help me out here, but it seems to me that your eyes would need to have been opened prior to this "born again" experience (that moment when you put your faith in Jesus Christ) or you never would have had the ability to even have thedesire to be receptive to the things of God. Do you understand what I'm saying and can you help me out here? Iz: Well, Bill, maybe it was kind of like when youmarried your wife. First you fell in love. And then you joined each other in matrimony. The marriage part is like when you got born again and became one. There was a precursor, but it wasn't consummated until you were one spirit so to speak. BT:Paul tells us that Christ re-gatheredall things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all things have their being or ontological There you go using one of those nonbiblical words, Bill. I had said something the other dayin reference to our ontological status in Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was talking about. I used the term here to give that first statement some context.Yes, we sometimesusenon-biblical terms to speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do this. My gripe is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate others when they do it. Iz: I find that interesting, Bill, sincethis whole discussion got started because you objected to thoseof us who were using the term "spiritual" in front of death because you considered "spiritual" to be a nonbiblical term. So, since then, I've been trying to point out that you, also, use "nonbiblical" terms all the time. Right? (? Am I looking at the ontological me in the mirror, or at Izzys decaying physical body? Do people get cosmetic surgery for ontological bodies? Meanwhile my body gets a day older every day, and a day closer to the grave. But my spirit is renewed and growing every day. Thats why Ill be happy to trade in the old model of my body for a new/improved version!) Yeah, I hear you there. I do hope God doesn't want any brickin' done when I get to heaven though. And don't say he'll probably stick me in the furnace! :) I laid brick in Minnesota one winter, replacing burned-out walls inside oftaconite furnaces. If I stood in one place too long, my boots would start on fire. Too hot for me!! Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy
Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Dispersions
Judy Taylor wrote: DAVEH: Do you believe you have a spirit as well, Judy? Does having a spirit change the way one looks? If you do not believe God looks like a man, then what do you think he looks like??? Do you believe Jesus is in the express image of his Father in Heaven? (Heb 1:3) I believe that I am primarily a spirit being; I have a soul, and I live in a body. Actually I don't know what God looks like, I know Him spiritually and yes Jesus is the express image of the Father but who in this generation has seen Jesus? DAVEH: From my perspective, Joseph Smith, as I consider him being of this generation.the latter-days. Even the ones who walked with Him in the flesh didn't always comprehend. Phillip wasn't understandingwhen he said "show us the Father" ... and he walked with Jesus' physical body daily. DAVEH: Remember.those early followers of Christ did not have the NT for a reference. Much of what you know from the Bible may not have been readily available for them so I don't think it is reasonable for them to know some of the things that were revealed later. And, if Jesus' physical body was in the form of a man, do you not think his pre-mortal spiritual body may have been in a similar form? No; before he took a body upon Himself he was God the Word who appeared in His preincarnate state as an angel, a cloud, fire, water from the rock. You can't figure out God with a carnal mind Dave. To answer your last questionyes, many things are created in a form before they become the actual entity. If we were created in the image of God (Gen 1:26), and we will be like him when he appears (1Jn 3:2), then does it not follow that God looks like a man? No; the "image of God" speaks of nature and character. 1 John 3:2 is referring to holiness of character and walking in love toward God, others, and ourselves. DAVEH: Really?!?!?! So you would believe (don't let me put words in your mouth) that we could have been born with 4 legs and a tail and still been in the image of God? God made everything after it's kind; I guess he could have given us four legs and a tail if he wanted to; we would have been like cartoon characters and Lance would have approved then - but he didn't DAVEH: Is that your assumption (the "image of God" speaks of nature and character), Judy? If Jesus is in his Father's express image, do you believe express image to refers to nature and character as well? You are trying to mix the spiritual with the temporal. The temporal is passing away - only the spiritual is eternal. Transformed bodies are part of it but this does not mean that Good looks like a man. He did not leave us any representation of Jesus, noone knows what he looks like other than he wasn't all that good looking. DAVEH: You are losing me on that one, Judy. Do you not believe Jesus currently has a resurrected physical body that resembles that of a man? Yes I believe he has a transformed body that looks somewhat like the natural one he had but not exactly because some did not recognize him when he was back on earth for those 40+ days... and yes the body looks like a man but as the ONLY begotten Son of God he sits at the RH of the Father so this does not tell us what God the Father looks like does it? God knows our frame, we are such idolaters that we would do the same with him as Israeldid with the bronze serpent. As for him being seen.is there any question about it? The passages that suggest one cannot see God are obviously referring to those who are carnal, since there are Biblical characters (such as Moses Stephen) who did see God. Furthermore, Gen 32:30 pretty much illustrates that holy men can see God, and live. Was it not Jesus who said... Moses didn't see God, he only saw his hind parts as he passed by and even that caused his face to shine so that he had to wear a veil before the ppl. Stephen had a vision of Jesus standing at the RH of the Father but there is no indication that he saw the face of God. DAVEH: What difference does it make that Moses did not see God's face. That wasn't the question.Did Moses see God, and you stipulated that he did..saw his hind parts . So what's to debate.Moses saw God and lived. God has a body (you've stipulated Moses saw part of that body) which can be seen. Case closed, is it not? I thought you were trying to prove the scripture that says "no man has seen God face to face" Wasn't that what you posted to begin with? He Jacob said that because the man he wrestled with represented God. Do you really think that God Himself left his throne in heaven and came down to earth to wrestle with Jacob? It was an angel. DAVEH: Do you have any passages that support your view on that?
