[TruthTalk]

[Terry Clifton]

Please unsubscribe me.

Terry

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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[TruthTalk] FW: January 6 - The Delusions of 2005

[Terry Clifton]

 

 













 





 






 
  
   
  
  
  
  
  
   
  
  
  
  
 




 




 
  
   
  
  
  
  
  
  January
  6 - The Delusions of 2005 
  
  
   
  
 




 




 
  
   
  
  
  
   

 


Since deception and
delusion are strong forces in the last days, I have come up with a list of
the strong delusions of 2005. I am not trying to be cynical. They are real,
and in some cases very dangerous.
·  All the ills of the
world are the fault of Christians, Jews, America, and President Bush.
Reality check: Man's sinful nature is the root of all evil.
·  We should rely on
government agencies in times of tragedies. Reality check: The untold story
of Katrina and other disasters is that God's people rallied while agencies
remained stuck in bureaucracy.
·  The media is very
much on top of the war on terror. Reality check: They won't even use the
word "terrorist"; rather "freedom fighters,"
"insurgents," "rebels," and more, sanitizing some of
the world's worst monsters.
·  Supreme Court nominee
Sam Alito is an extremist but Ruth Bader Ginsberg is a moderate.
·  Saudi Arabia is a Middle East moderate and
ally of the U.S. Reality
Check: More than 80% of U.S.
mosques are stacked with Saudi Wahhabi propaganda promoting the Islamic
States of America.
·  Fences don't make
good neighbors so Israel
cannot have a security fence which has cut down on homicide bombers.
Reality check: Many nations have such a fence and one along the U.S.
southern border is under discussion.
·  The withdrawal of the
Jews from Gaza
was the first major step towards peace and security in that region. Reality
check: Gaza
is now a terror state, steeped in anarchy, even taking Western hostages.
·  Islam said Hurricane
Katrina was the wrath of Allah against America. Reality check: When
the Pakistani earthquake hit (and other disasters in the Islamic world),
Allah seems to not notice and be on vacation.
·  The "religious
Left" and their social gospel is valuable. Reality check: They are so
out of touch with reality they make continued visits to Hizbollah and
Hamas.
·  The church will save
the world and make it perfect for Christ's return (Dominion/Kingdom Now
Theology). Reality check: Many churches are not even preaching a sound
gospel. They are preaching a bloodless gospel to fill up the pews and false
doctrine is exploding as predicted.
·  We're in the
"last days" and churches are encouraging their flock to get right
with God while there is still time. Reality check: Visit most any church in
America
and you will not hear the wonderful news that Jesus is coming soon.
·  When President Bush
does exactly what President Clinton did, Bush is pounded and there is
collective amnesia about Clinton.
·  There were no WMD in Iraq.
Reality check: There is film footage of them being moved to Syria in
2003.
·  The mainstream media
remains the media source of choice. Reality check: People are fed up with
them and have turned in large numbers to the alternative media.blogs,
Internet, talk radio, etc.
·  It's a new day for
the Palestinians with Arafat gone. Reality check: The only difference
between Arafat and Abbas is that Abbas wears $2,000 suits.
·  Russia can be trusted
because she, too, is in the war on terror. Reality check: Russia is cooperating with Iran and Iran's nuclear program and will
be a part of the Gog-Magog war of Ezekiel 38-39.
·  The public schools have no
agenda. Reality check: Christ and Christmas are out but your kid will learn
about Islam 
 


 

   
  
  
  
  
   
  
 















 
  
   
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
   
  
 




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FW: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath/Other lost Israelite sheep

[Terry Clifton]

 

 













Let me
add a big Amen to JD’s comments.  I not only understood it. I learned
from it and agree with it.

Thank
you brother.

The
best approach, many times, is to
just tell people how Jesus changed your life. (From what you was, to what you
is )

Terry 

 





Thanks for these words.   Much to think on  - 
between the lines.  





 





jd





 





-- Original message -- 
From: "Taylor"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 



Blaine
writes  > Jesus himself never went to the Gentiles.  He never
spoke to them except on one occasion that was an  exception to his
rule.  





 





 







NKJ Mark 5:1 Then they came to the other side of the sea, to
the country of the Gadarenes. 2 And when He had come out of the boat,
immediately there met Him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, ... 18
And when He got into the boat, he who had been demon-possessed begged Him that
he might be with Him. 19 However, Jesus did not permit him, but said to him,
"Go home to your friends, and tell them what great things the Lord has
done for you, and how He has had compassion on you." 20 And he departed and
began to proclaim in Decapolis all that Jesus
had done for him; and all marveled.



You might want to ruminate on this passage a while, Blaine. Only one of the
"ten cities" which together made up the Decapolis
was located to the west of the River Jordan (it was called Scythopolis, a.k.a.
Bethshaen). The rest were situated beyond the banks of the
"promised land," in what could only be classified Gentile territory
(the other nine cities were Hippos, Gadara, Pella, Philadelphia, Gerasa
[home of the "Garasenes," a.k.a. "Gadarenes"], Dion,
Canatha, Raphana, and Damascus).  Indeed
Jesus sent this duly impressed Gentile into the far country to
"publish" (GR. karussein) his story
until throughout Decapolis "all kept on
marveling (imperfect tense) at what Jesus had done." 

And, Blaine,
I find it quite noteworthy that Jesus did this without first proselytizing
him in the doctrines and duties of the Jewish people. IF I had a
complaint, it would be that many Christians get bogged done in the minutiae of
their peculiar forms of legalism and fail to realize this subtle but profound
point. To their shame, the astonishing truth remains that Jesus sent this
brand new Gentile
convert out without any discipling at all, not permitting him
to stay on with them and learn through the traditions of his
people the proper way of holiness. The truth is he sent him out
without so much as a whisper from the law and prophets, off without a
word on the do's and don'ts of godly living. No law. No commandments. No
holy days. No feasts or ordinances -- just a simple request:
"Tell them what great things the Lord has done for you, and how He has had
compassion on you." 

In your post you claim that Peter was the first to introduce
the Gospel to the Gentiles. In fact, Blaine, he
was not. A caveman from Gerasa gets credit for that one. What Peter was was the
first JEW to go to the Gentiles. Ah yes, but before he was fit to go, he had to
come to grips with the fact that what Jesus had done under law for the Jews, he
had accomplished as well for the Gentiles -- and this he did for them apart
from the law! Indeed before he could go, Peter had to grasp the fact that he
dare not foist upon Greeks his Jewish customs: for who was he to call
unholy what God in Christ had cleansed?

Bill

 







- Original Message - 





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org






Sent: Wednesday, January
04, 2006 6:32 PM





Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Saturday Sabbath/Other lost Israelite sheep





 







The Gentiles first
received the gospel by  way of the Apostles--Peter first received the
command to carry the message to those whom God had cleansed as he saw the sheet
lowered with the unclean animals on it, and was commanded to "Rise, Peter,
Kill and eat."





This was the introduction of any Gentile
to a gospel message.   Paul was then commissioned to carry the
message to Gentiles, and was deemed the apostle to the Gentiles.  





Jesus himself never went to the
Gentiles.  He never spoke to them except on one occasion that was an
 exception to his rule.  They never heard his voice, yet he says,
"Other sheep I have which are not of this fold, and they too must Hear My Voice!"  His
personal appearances were ALWAYS reserved for the House of Israel,
ONLY!! 





 





 





 





In a message dated 1/4/2006 6:33:16 A.M.
Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:









 





 







 







- Original Message - 





From: 





To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org





Sent: 1/3/2006 7:39:32 PM 





Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath/Other lost Israelite sheep





 







What about this?  





 





Matthew 15:22-26 





"And behold a woman of Canaan came .
. .  but he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel . . . It is not meet to

[TruthTalk] FW: Fwd: GOOD JUDGE

[Terry Clifton]

 

 











>>> 

>>>PRAY
THAT SOME DAY OUR COURTS WILL BE FULL OF THIS KIND OF JUDGES

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>>.
MAYBE THEN, WE CAN PUT GOD BACK  WHERE HE BELONGS --- IN

EVERYTHING 

>>>WE DO

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>>Way
to go, Judge

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>>In Florida an atheist
became incensed over the preparation for Easter

and 

>>>Passover
holidays and decided to contact his lawyer about the 

>>>discrimination
inflicted on atheists, by the constant celebrations 

>>>afforded
to Christians and Jews with all their holidays while the 

>>>atheists
had no holiday to celebrate.

>>> 

>>>The
case was brought before a wise judge who after listening to the

long, 

>>>passionate
presentation of his lawyer, promptly banged his gavel and 

>>>declared,
"Case dismissed!"

>>> 

>>>The
lawyer immediately stood and objected to the ruling and said,

"Your 

>>>honor,
how can you possibly dismiss this case? Surely the Christians

have 

>>>Christmas,
Easter and many other observances. The Jews--why in

addition 

>>>to
Passover they have Yom Kippur and Hanukkah...and yet my client and

all 

>>>other
atheists have no such holiday!"

>>> 

>>>The
judge leaned forward in his chair and simply said "Obviously your 

>>>client
is too confused to know about or to celebrate the atheists' 

>>>holiday!"

>>> 

>>>The
lawyer pompously said "We are aware of no such holiday for

atheists, 

>>>just
when might that be, your honor?"

>>> 

>>>The
judge said "Well it comes every year on exactly the same

date---April 

>>>1st!"

>>> 

>>>"The
fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'"

>>>Psalm
14:1, Psalm 53:1

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>>In
God We Trust ~ United We Stand!!

>>> 

>>>GOD
BLESS OUR TROOPS!!!

>>> 

>>>Ð¥   
ô¿ô¬

>>>  
°

>>> 

>>>BUY
AMERICAN

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

> 

> 



















PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com

[TruthTalk] FW: Killer of 'devil' sentenced to 25-45 years

[Terry Clifton]

 

 













This is new, it's called "shotgun" evangelism





 



http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051229/CFP03/512290458






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[TruthTalk] [Fwd: Fw: Warning - NOT A JOKE]

[Terry Clifton]

 Original Message 

  

  Subject: 
  Fw: Warning - NOT A JOKE


  Date: 
  Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:59:58 -0800


  From: 
  cimerron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


  To: 
  cimerron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

  






cimerron sez:
 
See: http://www.snopes.com/computer/virus/osama.asp
for the full scoop but the main thing to remember is:
THIS
IS NOT A HOAX
-
Original Message -
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: undisclosed-recipients: 
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 8:16 PM
Subject: Warning - NOT A JOKE





Guess this is being sent around again --

  -
Original Message -
  From:
  
  Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 4:58 PM
  Subject: IMPORTANT - NOT A JOKE
  
  
  
  
   
   
  -
  Sent: Wednesday,
December 28, 2005 11:03 PM
  To: Heather Antonio
  Subject: IMPORTANT -
NOT A JOKE
   
  I did check and
see the warning on Snopes and on hoax-slayer, but none of the other
virus sights have it.  I guess it is better to be safe than sorry.
   
  mg
   
  http://www.hoax-slayer.com/bin-laden-captured.html
  
  
  
  Please
distribute ASAP Importance: High 
  
 
  
 
  
  USE
EXTREME CAUTION. (Do not just delete) READ BELOW
THIS IS TRUE - It was CONFIRMED BY GOING TO SNOPES.COM
  
Emails with pictures of Osama Bin-Laden hanged are being sent and the
moment
that you open these emails your computer will crash and you will not be
able
to fix it!
  
This e-mail is being distributed through countries around the globe, but
mainly in the US and Israel.
  
Don't be inconsiderate; send this warning to whomever you know.
  
If you get an email along the lines of "Osama bin Laden Captured" or
"Osama
Hanged" don't open the attachment.
  
Confirmed at:  
  http://www.snopes.com/computer/virus/osamahanged.asp
  
Origins: There are few headlines that would grab the attention of more
computer users around the world than "Osama bin Laden Captured," and
that's
exactly what whoever created this lure was counting on to snare
unsuspecting
victims who use Microsoft platforms.
  
"Osama bin Laden Captured" isn't a virus in itself; it's the text of a
message that includes a link to a file called EXPLOIT.EXE. When a
message
recipient clicks on this link to view what he thinks are pictures of
Osama
bin Laden's capture, he can end up downloading an executable Trojan
known as
Backdoor-AZU, BKDR_LARSLP.A, Download.Trojan,
TrojanProxy.Win32.Small.b,or
Win32.Slarp. Clicking the embedded link in the "Osama bin Laden
Captured"
message auto-executes a file called "EXPLOIT.EXE," which exploits a
known
security hole to download the Trojan. According to McAfee Security:
  
The Trojan opens a random port on the victim's machine. It sends the
Port
information to a webpage at IP address 66.139.77.145. The Trojan
listens on
the open port for instructions and redirects traffic to other IP
addresses.
Spammers and hackers can take advantage of compromised systems by using
the
infected computer as a middleman, allowing them to pass information
through
it and remain anonymous
  
  
  

 



--- Begin Message ---



 
- Original Message - 
From: Patricia Goldenne 
To: DERICK 
LLOYD 
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 4:58 PM
Subject: IMPORTANT - NOT A JOKE


 
 
-Original 
Message-From: Melissa 
Gatenby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 11:03 
PMTo: Heather 
AntonioSubject: IMPORTANT - 
NOT A JOKE
 
I did check and see the warning on Snopes 
and on hoax-slayer, but none of the other virus sights have it.  I guess it 
is better to be safe than sorry.
 
mg
 
http://www.hoax-slayer.com/bin-laden-captured.html

Please 
distribute ASAP Importance: High   USE 
EXTREME CAUTION. (Do not just delete) READ BELOWTHIS IS TRUE - It was 
CONFIRMED BY GOING TO SNOPES.COMEmails 
with pictures of Osama Bin-Laden hanged are being sent and the momentthat 
you open these emails your computer will crash and you will not be ableto 
fix it!This e-mail is being distributed through countries around the 
globe, butmainly in the US and Israel.Don't be inconsiderate; send 
this warning to whomever you know.If you get an email along the lines of 
"Osama bin Laden Captured" or "OsamaHanged" don't open the 
attachment.Confirmed at:  http://www.snopes.com/computer/virus/osamahanged.aspOrigins: 
There are few headlines that would grab the attention of morecomputer users 
around the world than "Osama bin Laden Captured," and that'sexactly what 
whoever created this lure was counting on to snare unsuspectingvictims who 
use Microsoft platforms."Osama bin Laden Captured" isn't a virus in 
itself; it's the text of amessage that includes a link to a file called 
EXPLOIT.EXE. When a messagerecipient clicks on this link to view what he 
thinks are pictures of Osamabin Laden's capture, he can end up downloading 
an executable Trojan known asBackdoor-AZU, BKDR_LARSLP

Re: [TruthTalk] Unsubscribe please

[Terry Clifton]

You could be right.  I will pretend to understand him too.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  I can almost hear Terry saying,  "save the women and children !!"
  Perhaps we need to humor the one who is the maker of bats !!!
   
  jd
   
  --
Original message -- 
From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Don't pretend to understand himJohn.  It just encourages him to keep
writing answers to his own comments.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  And therein is its limitation.  Right?
   
  jd
   
  --
Original message -- 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

..cultic-apostolic
theory rules from the right of the right
 
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:31:58 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  in
context, the essence of current compound/ed cultic-apostolic myth: 
   
  "..I
have been wasting my time throwing pearls before swine here." -- Izzy
   
  On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:17:52 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
 
myth
(someone manufactured this explanation--Izzy cited other mythological
reasons)
 
 
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:03:57 -0500 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
<
upset by it that she wants to leave the list,>> 
 
 
  
   

  


  

Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry

[Terry Clifton]

Actually, it is supposed to have started with the tower of Babel, and
the master builders who were  to construct it.
Terry


Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  
  
  No it is way before that; the ancient fertility cults
were practised in Canaan before God destroyed the Amorites.
   
  On
Tue, 27 Dec 2005 11:01:12 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
  
 


 Blainerb: 
Freemasonry is obviously descended from the time when the Jews returned
from the Babylonian captivity to Jerusalem to rebuild their temple and
the walls of the city.  It is one thing to  say such as you have stated
below, but quite another to show beyond reasonable doubt that your
assertions are correct.  If you wouldn't mind, I would like to
double-check your sources.  
 
 
 
 
 
In
a message dated 12/27/2005 8:04:59 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 

  I have read the same Blaine
and the Freemasonry rituals are based on the old Fertility Cult mystery
religions which is 
  the same kind of paganism that got the Canaanite Nations
exiled from the Promised Land and destroyed.  There is a
  sexual aspect to both.  jt
   
  On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:06:14 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
  

I am  not aware of one, except to say, as JS did, that he
joined the Freemasons to obtain whatever friendship and support they
might offer in times of duress--as you are probably aware, he was
arrested on false charges many times--0ver 40 times, as I recall--and
abused both physically and verbally a lot
of times by antis of his day.  
But I am sure if there is any official commentary from
Church authorities, Kevin would know where it would be found.  Especially if it could be used against the Church.  :>)
Blainerb
 
In a message dated 12/26/2005 10:08:36 P.M. Mountain
Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Does the Mormon Church have an expressed opinion
regarding freemasonary?  
   
  

  
  

 
 
 
 
  
  

judyt    
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] apostles and prophets

[Terry Clifton]

Dave wrote:

  
  
  
  
DAVEH:  As I understand DavidM, he believes prophets exist today.   Is
that the way you believe as well, Bishop? 

=

  Profits exist almost everywhere today, except, of course, in my shop.


 

Re: [TruthTalk] FW:

[Terry Clifton]

It is commomly believed that the wise men came to the stable, but they
didn't even come to the same town when they finally arrived more than
two years later.

Dave wrote:

  
  
  his 14-year old mother, Mary
  
  
DAVEH:   Is it commonly believed by many Christians that Mary was only
14 when she gave birth to our Savior?
  
  
  
ShieldsFamily wrote:
  

  

  Dec. 25, 2005

  
  JEWISH INFANT DISCOVERED IN BARN
infant child named Jesus, who had been wrapped in strips of cloth and
placed in a feeding trough by his 14-year old mother, Mary
of Nazareth.
  
  

  

  
  
  -- 
 ~~~
 Dave Hansen
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.langlitz.com
 ~~~
 If you wish to receive
 things I find interesting,
 I maintain six email lists...
 JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
 STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

  

Re: [TruthTalk] Unsubscribe please

[Terry Clifton]

Don't pretend to understand himJohn.  It just encourages him to keep
writing answers to his own comments.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  And therein is its limitation.  Right?
   
  jd
   
  --
Original message -- 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

..cultic-apostolic
theory rules from the right of the right
 
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:31:58 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  in
context, the essence of current compound/ed cultic-apostolic myth: 
   
  "..I
have been wasting my time throwing pearls before swine here." -- Izzy
   
  On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:17:52 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
 
myth
(someone manufactured this explanation--Izzy cited other mythological
reasons)
 
 
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:03:57 -0500 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
<
upset by it that she wants to leave the list,>> 
 
 
  
   

  

Re: [TruthTalk] How to leave TT

[Terry Clifton]

I see.


Charles Perry Locke wrote:


Terry,

Maybe you are speaking from experience, but I believe that cold turkey 
is the way to go. You have to cut and run and not look back. Sure, 
there will be withdrawals. The habit of sitting down to check your 
email and immediately looking for TT posts will be difficult to break. 
But with a proper support group, and some worthy diversions, it can be 
done.


Another approach is to buy the TT-SENTRY! software package. For a mere 
$29.95 (and $5.99 per month, charged to your credit card) TT-SENTRY! 
will scan all incoming and outgoing email for the address 
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" and immediately destroy them, automatically 
unsubscribe the sender from TT, then log the user off the machine, and 
restrict this user from logging back on for 24 hours. If this 
automatic procedure is invoked more than 5 times, then on the sixth 
occurrence the hard disk is wiped clean.


However, if the above two measures do not work and breaking the TT 
habit  proves to be an overwhelming task, a loved one can call 
1-800-LEAVE-TT, a critical intervention hotline, and for $599.99 the 
moderator will personally come to your house with a sledge hammer and 
smash every computer in your home, including cell phones and PDAs 
capable of email access. This also includes a 1-year membership in TT 
Anonymous...a 12-step support group for recovering TT subscribers.


If none of these measures work, the next step is electroshock therapy. 
However, due to the delicate nature of this procedure, TT provides 
only a referral service to EST practitioners. Some former subscribers 
have used self-administered electroshock therapy with limited success.


Perry



From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Unsubscribe please
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 21:45:53 -0600

ShieldsFamily wrote:

You cannot just stop cold turkey.  If you don't taper off gradually, 
you will have a relapse.



Terry

Having been moving for the last couple of days, I just got a chance 
to sit

down for a rest and browse through TT.  I am dismayed as what I see.  I
wonder why I have been wasting my time throwing pearls before swine 
here.
The answer, of course, is that I dearly enjoy reading and sharing 
posts with
the kindhearted Believers on TT.  But the truth is, in real life I 
would
never associate with the toxic people I find here.  I don't need 
hateful,
nasty people insulting me or my friends.  I have so many delightful 
friends

to spend the precious moments of my life with, and so very much to
accomplish. Life is increasingly short, and I am convicted about 
spending it

wisely. So dear Lance, jd, and Gary, enjoy insulting me to your heart's
desire while I'm gone. I'm giving up TT for New Year's. I hope the 
rest of
you will email me often.  Love and Blessings and a closer walk with 
Jesus to

every one of you, Izzy





--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you 
may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.org


If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you 
have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.




--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you 
may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.org


If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have 
a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.




--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Unsubscribe please

[Terry Clifton]

ShieldsFamily wrote:


You cannot just stop cold turkey.  If you don't taper off gradually, you will 
have a relapse.


Terry


Having been moving for the last couple of days, I just got a chance to sit
down for a rest and browse through TT.  I am dismayed as what I see.  I
wonder why I have been wasting my time throwing pearls before swine here.
The answer, of course, is that I dearly enjoy reading and sharing posts with
the kindhearted Believers on TT.  But the truth is, in real life I would
never associate with the toxic people I find here.  I don't need hateful,
nasty people insulting me or my friends.  I have so many delightful friends
to spend the precious moments of my life with, and so very much to
accomplish. Life is increasingly short, and I am convicted about spending it
wisely. So dear Lance, jd, and Gary, enjoy insulting me to your heart's
desire while I'm gone. I'm giving up TT for New Year's. I hope the rest of
you will email me often.  Love and Blessings and a closer walk with Jesus to
every one of you, Izzy 

 



--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] apostles and prophets

[Terry Clifton]

Onest a rassler, always a rassler?
=

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


David maneuves to  pin jd to the wall:
 



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"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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[TruthTalk] [Fwd: Fw: Early Show & Jane Clayson]

[Terry Clifton]

  

  
  
  
  

  
 



Billy
Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson
asked her "How could God let something like this Happen?" (regarding
Katrina)
Anne
Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, "I
believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years
we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our
government and to get out of our lives.























And
being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can
we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand
He leave us alone?"








In
light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I
think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her
body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools,
and we said OK.








Then
someone said you better not read the Bible in school . the Bible says
thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as
yourself. And we said OK.











Then
Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they
misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we
might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We
said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.








Now
we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they
don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill
strangers, their classmates, and themselves.








Probably,
if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I
think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."








Funny
how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the
world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say,
but question what the Bible says








Funny
how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire
but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think
twice about sharing.








Funny
how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through
cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school
and workplace. 








Are
you laughing?








Funny
how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your
address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they
WILL think of you for sending it. Funny how we can be more worried
about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.








Pass
it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one
will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit
back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.





















  
  


  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  


  

  
   
  


  
  

  

Re: [TruthTalk] The cross of Christ

[Terry Clifton]

Yeah, I have a big problem viewing anything that minimizes Christ.  In
this case though, I will forgive you.  If it happens again, expect a
visit from Izzy, the terminator.

Dave wrote:

  
  
   What bis with this CE nonsense?
  
DAVEH:  I'm just quoting from some who have a different perspective,
Terry.  Do you have a problem with viewing early Christianity from the
other side of the fence?
  
    Note the third quote below
  
  In the first three centuries A.D. the cross was not openly used
as
a
Christian symbol,
  
...in which the author uses AD rather than CE.  Does that make his
comments acceptable from your perspective?
  
Terry Clifton wrote:
  


 What bis with this CE nonsense?  It is Anno Domini, the
year
of our
Lord..If you have a Lord.  CE is for Lost sinners, not
saved ones.
Terry

Dave wrote:

  
  
  

There is no doubt that the cross was extremely important and 
emphasized by the primitive Christians, much more so than by most Christians 
today.
  
  
DAVEH:  I've found a few comments that suggest some early Christians
were less than enamored by the cross
  
  The use of the cross as a symbol was condemned by at least one
church father of the 3rd century CE because of its Pagan origins. The
first appearance of a cross in Christian art is on a Vatican
sarcophagus from the mid-5th Century. 11 It was a Greek cross with
equal-length arms. Jesus' body was not shown. The first crucifixion
scenes didn't appear in Christian art until the 7th century CE. The
original cross symbol was in the form of a Tau Cross. It was so named
because it looked like the letter "tau", or our letter "T". One author
speculates that the Church may have copied the symbol from the Pagan
Druids who made crosses in this form to represent the Thau (god). 7
They joined two limbs from oak trees. The Tau cross became associated
with St. Philip who was allegedly crucified on such a cross in Phrygia.
May Day, a major Druidic seasonal day of celebration, became St.
Philip's Day. Later in Christian history, the Tau Cross became the
Roman Cross that we are familiar with today.
  
**
  
According to author Graydon F. Snyder:
  
"[Today's]universal use of the sign of the cross makes more
poignant the striking lack of crosses in early Christian remains,
especially any specific reference to the event on Golgotha. Most
scholars now agree that the cross as an artistic reference to the
passion event cannot be found prior to the time of Constantine."
  
..The previous two comments are found at 
  
    And Christian Symbols: Ancient and Modern by Child
& Colles claims..
  
  In the first three centuries A.D. the cross was not openly
used as
a
Christian symbol, for the early believers looked beyond the
Crucifixion
to the Resurrection, and the emphasis was not on the cross of suffering
and humiliation but on the Promise of Life with Christ here in the
world and hereafter in the life beyond the grave.
  
...which seems to contrast what you are claiming.
  
David Miller wrote:
  
DAVEH:
  

  Do you believe the Primitive Christians had
that apprehension?



Yes, absolutely.  Just look at how much the New Testament writes about the 
cross.  The earliest of the church fathers also wrote about the cross. 
Ignatius of the first century magnified the cross even more than Paul did. 
Polycarp, born in the first century and martyred in the middle of the second 
century, was a disciple of John.  He said in one of his epistles that 
whosoever does not confess the testimony of the cross is of the devil. 
Justin Martyr of the early second century also wrote extensively on the 
cross.  There is no doubt that the cross was extremely important and 
emphasized by the primitive Christians, much more so than by most Christians 
today.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


  
  

  

Re: [TruthTalk] The cross of Christ

[Terry Clifton]

What bis with this CE nonsense?  It is Anno Domini, the year of our
Lord..If you have a Lord.  CE is for Lost sinners, not
saved ones.
Terry

Dave wrote:

  
  
  

There is no doubt that the cross was extremely important and 
emphasized by the primitive Christians, much more so than by most Christians 
today.
  
  
DAVEH:  I've found a few comments that suggest some early Christians
were less than enamored by the cross
  
  The use of the cross as a symbol was condemned by at least one
church father of the 3rd century CE because of its Pagan origins. The
first appearance of a cross in Christian art is on a Vatican
sarcophagus from the mid-5th Century. 11 It was a Greek cross with
equal-length arms. Jesus' body was not shown. The first crucifixion
scenes didn't appear in Christian art until the 7th century CE. The
original cross symbol was in the form of a Tau Cross. It was so named
because it looked like the letter "tau", or our letter "T". One author
speculates that the Church may have copied the symbol from the Pagan
Druids who made crosses in this form to represent the Thau (god). 7
They joined two limbs from oak trees. The Tau cross became associated
with St. Philip who was allegedly crucified on such a cross in Phrygia.
May Day, a major Druidic seasonal day of celebration, became St.
Philip's Day. Later in Christian history, the Tau Cross became the
Roman Cross that we are familiar with today.
  
**
  
According to author Graydon F. Snyder:
  
"[Today's]universal use of the sign of the cross makes more
poignant the striking lack of crosses in early Christian remains,
especially any specific reference to the event on Golgotha. Most
scholars now agree that the cross as an artistic reference to the
passion event cannot be found prior to the time of Constantine."
  
..The previous two comments are found at
  
  
    And Christian Symbols: Ancient and Modern by Child
& Colles claims..
  
  In the first three centuries A.D. the cross was not openly used as
a
Christian symbol, for the early believers looked beyond the Crucifixion
to the Resurrection, and the emphasis was not on the cross of suffering
and humiliation but on the Promise of Life with Christ here in the
world and hereafter in the life beyond the grave.
  
...which seems to contrast what you are claiming.
  
David Miller wrote:
  
DAVEH:
  

  Do you believe the Primitive Christians had
that apprehension?



Yes, absolutely.  Just look at how much the New Testament writes about the 
cross.  The earliest of the church fathers also wrote about the cross. 
Ignatius of the first century magnified the cross even more than Paul did. 
Polycarp, born in the first century and martyred in the middle of the second 
century, was a disciple of John.  He said in one of his epistles that 
whosoever does not confess the testimony of the cross is of the devil. 
Justin Martyr of the early second century also wrote extensively on the 
cross.  There is no doubt that the cross was extremely important and 
emphasized by the primitive Christians, much more so than by most Christians 
today.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


  
  
  
  -- 
 ~~~
 Dave Hansen
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.langlitz.com
 ~~~
 If you wish to receive
 things I find interesting,
 I maintain six email lists...
 JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
 STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

  

Re: [TruthTalk] apostles and prophets

[Terry Clifton]

Apollo wrote Hebrews with the help of Phred.  I have never read Mrak. 
Is he one of them minor 'postles?  :)

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   
   
  --
Original message -- 
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 


The job of the apostles was not to write the Bible,  Matthew, Mrak (probably under the supervision of the
Apostle Peter),   John's gospel and letters,  Paul's authorship
including Hebrews,  James,   and (perhaps) Titus author all of the NT
books except three   (Luke/Acts and Jude)     and
the apostles did not suddenly disappear once the Bible was "complete."  The recording of "scripture" ended with the death of
John.   Coincidence?   I think not.Most of the
apostles left us no Scripture at all, including the chief apostle,
Jesus Christ himself. true.   And I am
not saying that they all did. But, if we were to delete Luke/Acts
and Jude,  we would still have all of NT teaching  -   and all of it
done by or under the tutelage of the apostles. 
 
 Most authors of the Bible were not apostles.  We have Matthew, John, Paul, Peter and James writing
23 books and three writers authoring 4 books.  It is
doubtful that James the Lord's brother was an apostle  and yet, 21 lines from now (not counting salutations
and headings) you argue for the apostleship of James  !!  and
Jude the Lord's brother probably was not either.  The author below did
not comment on Mark that author thought
DM was aware of the opinion of many that Peter supervised the writing
of Mark and gave Mark most of his information -  since Mark was not
around Christ as far we any of us know or this other
Jude Jude was , indeed, an oversight but
my point remains as restated above  when he says, "with
this group of men, we have the writings of all the NT
scripture..."&n
bsp; Then the author here casts modern day theologians
into prophets? Such could not be further from the truth. The
theologians of today are more analogous to the scribes of Jesus day. 
Think about it.
"Prophet" as in apostles and
prophets, the foundation of the household of God  (Eph 2:20) can have
one of [at least] two meanings.   The first, a prophet as one who
predicts the future and the second, as one who reveals or explains the
revelation of God.   I think the later notion gives us a better fit,
the apostles loose and bind, present revelation and the prophet (for
all ages) continues to illuminate this revelation.   I can't insist on
this idea as excathedra, but I can certainly teach it.   The effect of
this teaching is important.   If one is a prophet,  has the ability to
present and explain and excite the mind of the student and he/she does
not   ---   what does that mean for them personally?    If
Bill Taylor, for example,  is gifted with the ability to tie Chruch
history and the Revelation of the written word and the reality of the
Living Christ together into something that is a
t least understood by the evangelist, the pastor, the teacher and he
decides to do something else  --  well,  how should he view his
stewardship  of the gift given?   
 
And then there is the false assertion that all the miracles of
the NT were performed by Jesus or one of the apostles.  Let's look at what John actually said, shall
we:  The apostles were
charged  with world mission, binding and loosing and the performace of
miracles as an extension (in the Spirit) of who they were.  All the
recorded miracles of the NT scripture are performed by Jesus or one of
the apostles.  The phrase "as
an extension of who they were" is very important to me.   All of what
was promised in Mark 16: applies to the apostles.    Peter could walk
by and people were healed.   Paul could be hung on the wall of a   jail
cell, knowing all the while that God had placed his opponents into his
hands  - that he would be the victor.   Stephen is an exceptional
case.  He is singled out in scripture as being full o
f faith and the Spirit and power.  I certainly do not beleive that
miracles ended with the passing of the apostles !!   God continues to
use men and women to this day to accomplish even the miraculous  -  it
is a gift, one of many.   But I do not believe in "faith healers."  
And why?   Because I believe  that only the apostles could do such
things by way of ministry  assignment , as a result of who they were
and not  just how they were gifted.   The apostles were the complete
package.  
 
There is no reason to believe
that they continued beyond the first century (except, perhaps, John).  

 
 
 
  Consider Ananais who brought sight back to Saul and imparted
to him the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and Stephen who did many
miracles among the people, as did the evangelist Philip, preaching in
Samaria.  
 
Following is something I wrote about apostles and prophets
back in 1992.  Although dated, perhaps it will help you in your
thinking about apostles and prophets.
 

Peace be with you.
David 

Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!

[Terry Clifton]

Dave wrote:

  
  
  some differences in our views.
  I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden


DAVEH:    I understand your perspective on this, but for Jesus to
literally sweat blood worrying about what is to come seems a bit
oddeffectively, it would seem the anticipation is worse than the
dreaded event.  Do you really believe Jesus was so weak as that he
would succumb in such a way to that mental distress?   I don't.  Why do
many Christians perceive Jesus as God, who is all powerful and then
think he would be mentally weak when facing death by torture?  If on
the other hand one would think (as you did below) that he suffered such
in anticipation of taking on the sins of the world, then why could he
not have taken upon himself our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane?

=
1.  I
don't think you (or I ) know how much God hates sin.  Revulsion would
be too mild a term.  Hate may be too mild to describe it.  Only when we
fall at His feet a moment after we die will we truly realize how
perfectly holy He is and how evil we are.  Jesus was not mentally
weak.  He was morally strong.

2. Even a casual look at the blood sacrifices offered for the atonement
of sin will tell you that the substitute has to die.  The payback for
sin is death.  Always has been, always will be.  
I do not see Him dying for Adam's sin.  I see that He died for mine.  I
think that anyone who sees Jesus as their personal savior feels that
way.  He died for me.  I live for Him.

Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!

[Terry Clifton]

 I appreciate your comments, Dave.  This helps me to better understand
what you have either been taught or come to believe.  If I may, I would
like to take the liberty of pointing out some differences in our views.
I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden much as I sweat
out a trip to the dentist, or the way I felt waiting to have my chest
cut open and my heart stopped while strangers took a vein from my leg
and repaired the hoses feeding my heart.  It is the waiting for
something you know is going to hurt while knowing it cannot be
avoided.  It is apprehension of what is to come.
There is no doubt that this is a weak comparison.  I would rather be
killed than become guilty of being a homosexual or a child molester,
but Jesus became guilty of that and much more when He took the sins of
every human on Himself.  The apprehension of a perfectly innocent
person becoming absolutely guilty of every sin possible would be
something you or I cannot possibly comprehend.  He suffered mentally
there, possibly as much as He suffered physically later, but that was
not what paid the price for our sin.
He may have shed some bloody sweat there, but the next stage, the
flogging, would have been much bloodier.  A whip was used which had
multiple thongs, and to the end of each thong was fastened a bit of
stone or iron that hit the skin like a bullet, tearing out pieces of
flesh.  Many criminals did not survive the flogging and died before
they could be nailed to the cross.
Death by crucifixion was not due to loss of blood, although that
certainly weakened the victim. When your arms are outstretched and the
weight of your body is supported only by your arms, your rib cage
cannot move, and so you cannot breath.  In order to breath, you must
push yourself up with your feet and take the load off your arms.  This
is hard to do when any pressure on your feet causes pain because of the
spike that nailed them to the cross.  So the victim alternates, first
breathing, then suffocating, first supporting himself with his legs,
then hanging from his arms, no relief, even for a moment.  The two
thieves were finally suffocated when the soldiers took a mallet and
crushed their legs, ending their ability to breath.
With Jesus it was different.  Prophecy said that not a bone would be
broken and His legs were never hit with the mallet. 
 At the moment He cried out,  "My God, My God, why have You
forsaken Me", He paid the price for our sins.  Up until that time,
the Father had been with Him, but when Christ took on the sins of the
world, God could not bear to look on sin, and at that point, Jesus was
guilty of every evil thing I have ever done. 
 When He had done this, He gave up the ghost.  No soldier took His
life.  He laid it down, for you and for me.  When the soldier plunged
the spear into His side, it would have lacerated the liver, and any
blood left in His body would have been almost completely drained from
it.  Christ paid the ultimate price for my sins on that cross. His
lifeless body was taken down from it.

Just a final thought:  The Bible I use says that every saved person is
part of a royal priesthood.  Jesus our Lord is high priests, and every
follower of His is one of His priests.  That tells me that the first
black priest was the Etheopean eunuch that Phillip Baptized long before
1978.
I hope you can see this.
Terry

the
Mormon doctrine  (official church doctrine) Christ's atonement
for the sins of the world.
  
DAVEH:   As I understand it, the atonement took place in the Garden of
Gethsemane, and was finalized (sealed, so to speak) by Jesus' death on
the cross.
  
    I'm certainly not an authority on this topic, nor am I probably
able to explain the atonement in the authoritative detail you are
requesting.   As I see it, Jesus suffered greatly in the Garden of
Gethsemane.   Why?  I believe it was because he was bearing the burden
of our sins at that timein effect, taking upon himself our sins. 
Such suffering caused him to bleed from his pores.  At the Last Supper,
he explained to his Disciples that his blood would be shed..
  
  [Mk 14:23] And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he
gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
[24] And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament,
which is shed for many.
  
..and this was fulfilled in the Garden of Gethsemane shortly
after the Last Supper.
  
    The crucification itself brought him much pain and suffering as
well, but interestingly the Bible makes no mention of him shedding
blood on the cross until after his death, when his body was lanced with
a spear.  I believe the pain he suffered on the cross was caused by the
physical torture to which he was subjected by being nailed to that
cross, and then hung there in a manner designed to bring great
suffering and pain, in contrast to the pain he suffered in the Garden
of Gethsemane which was caused by what I believe was the effect of
taking our sins upon himself.   What do you 

Re: [TruthTalk] apostles and prophets

[Terry Clifton]

I think you named the apostles correctly.  It appears that your list of 
names of the others goes down hill from there.  You did not even mention 
Joseph Smith.  Certainly he was as much a (False) prophet as Calvin and 
more influential than any of the liberals you chose to honor.

You might want to get a good grip on reality and rethink this.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
Within the church ,  God has placed apostles, prophets,  evangelists, 
pastors and teacher.  There collective ministries are given a 
threefold purpose, but the specifics of each functionary  is unique 
and even exclusive. 
 
The apostles and prophets are   a case in point.   They are a part of 
those named in Eph 4:11 ff while , at the same time,  considered apart 
from the remaining categories (evangelists, pastors and teachers).  It 
is the apostles and prophets who are the foundation of the "household 
of God"  (Eph 2:20.)   Because they are named as the foundation of the 
Church,  we can be confident that their ministries compliment each 
other.  
 
The apostles are given an identify -- the "12"  --  while, in fact, 
their numbers include the original 12, Matthias, Paul, Barnabas, James 
the brother of Jesus, and arguably Apollos, Silvanus and Titus.   With 
this group of men, we have the writings of all NT scripture except the 
historical record of Luke  (Luke/Acts).  The apostles were 
charged  with world mission, binding and loosing and the performace of 
miracles as an extension (in the Spirit) of who they were.  All the 
recorded miracles of the NT scripture are performed by Jesus or one of 
the apostles.  
 
Their counterpart is the prophet.   Whereas the apostles were given to 
the First Church, the prophets continue with the church throughout the 
ages.  It is not the prophets work to continue the addition of 
scripture.   That work was completed with the apostles.  The 
scriptures were finished with the passing of the apostles.  In time, 
the Church Catholic was challenged to identify those scriptures and,  
with the providential consideration of God,  the Bible was the 
result.   The prophet, named as a part of the foundation of the 
church  (Eph 2:20) is, in reality,   those we commonly refer to as 
 "theologian."   He is the one who continues the work of the apostle 
as he illuminates the message, keeping the biblical message at center 
stage and fresh for each new era within the church.  People like 
Athanasuius,  Eusebias, Origen, Tertullian, Calvin, Luther,  Barth are 
prophets to the Church Catholic while others,  less catholic in 
function,  add to this illuminary function, men like Wesley,   
Torrance, NT Wright,  and, finally, those who have read and are 
acquainted with the above and have a  good working knowledge of the 
written word, people like Debbie Sawczak, Bill Taylor,  Victor 
Shepherd,  Jon Hughs and the like.   It is the prophet that keeps the 
word alive and helps to keep us centered on the Christ.  
 
The evangelist, pastor and teacher benefit from these prophets and 
give their (the prophets) conributions meaning to those within the 
church  who have a better understanding of the common man and his 
language.   And, so , the church at all levels is benefited, edified, 
regenerated with the living word without adding more and more 
scripture and bigger and better phenom.   A truly divine arrangement. 
 
jd 
 
 
 
 
 



--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [Fwd: Re: [TruthTalk] atta boy Canadians]

[Terry Clifton]

Sounds ideal.  Is it still available?


ShieldsFamily wrote:

  I lived on an Indian reservation in the Oregon mts when I was very young,
but still remember it.  My grandfather worked on a railroad that went thru
the area.  Lived in a house made of two side by side railroad cars heated
with a wood stove.  Outhouse out back.  Lots of wilderness and deep snow in
the winter.  The snakes weren't so cute, though. iz

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 7:55 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [TruthTalk] atta boy Canadians]

My wife is from Washington state.  We have lived in cold weather before, 
but you find me a prairie dog town in Oregon and we might change our 
minds.  We have been through 48 states and in my memory, oregon was the 
most beautiful of all.
Terry

Dave wrote:

  
  
DAVEH:  Unless you've experienced the Montana or Wyoming winters, you 
might want to take a peek at Oregon before making such a major error 
of judgment, Terry!  =-O

Terry Clifton wrote:



www.cliftoncustomrifles.com

Right now, we have the place up for sale.  If we get our price, we 
intend to move to Montana or Wyoming and spend our last days shooting 
prairie dogs and coyotes.
  




  
  
--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Nicolaitins - Rule/conquer 'over the people' WRONG, WRONG WAY TO GO

[Terry Clifton]

Thank you ,Lance.  Some great truth here.  Something to store in my
mind for continued value.
Terry

Lance Muir wrote:

  
  
  
  . Our 'authority' with respect to
people is to serve them. The Son of Man came to SERVE. This is the big,
big joke when asking 'what authority can a woman have'? The only
authority in Scripture is to lay your life down. Not many men are
asking the women to get out of the way so as to lay their lives down.
The brainless stuff that gets discussed! Most of our debates are
complete false debates because they are 'empire issues' that don't
belong in the church. (Who has authority over who?). 
   
  The recent musings of a prophet.

Re: [Fwd: Re: [TruthTalk] atta boy Canadians]

[Terry Clifton]

My wife is from Washington state.  We have lived in cold weather before, 
but you find me a prairie dog town in Oregon and we might change our 
minds.  We have been through 48 states and in my memory, oregon was the 
most beautiful of all.

Terry

Dave wrote:

DAVEH:  Unless you've experienced the Montana or Wyoming winters, you 
might want to take a peek at Oregon before making such a major error 
of judgment, Terry!  =-O


Terry Clifton wrote:


  www.cliftoncustomrifles.com

Right now, we have the place up for sale.  If we get our price, we 
intend to move to Montana or Wyoming and spend our last days shooting 
prairie dogs and coyotes.






--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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[Fwd: Re: [TruthTalk] atta boy Canadians]

[Terry Clifton]

Nope.  I am not man enough to stand up under the recoil of a fifty 
caliber machine gun cartridge.  I cringe every time I have to sight in 
one of the African rifles I make for people going on safari for elephant 
and cape buffalo.
Years ago, I fitted a 45/70 barrel to a single shot shotgun frame.  It 
is an old cartridge, being the same one that Custer's troops used.  Not 
a long range cartridge, too slow and too heavy, but I have killed  a 
pile of deer with it over the years, along with several hogs and 
bobcats.  You can see a poor picture of it on my web site, 
www.cliftoncustomrifles.com


Right now, we have the place up for sale.  If we get our price, we 
intend to move to Montana or Wyoming and spend our last days shooting 
prairie dogs and coyotes.  If it doesn't sell, I will still retire in 
March.  I have three varmint guns I want to build for myself when I 
close the shop.  If we stay here, I will spend most of my time reloading 
and developing more accurate loads for our rifles, and maybe shoot a few 
crows off the watermelons in early summer.  That is about the only long 
range shooting you can get around here and the farmers welcome you 
because they have a hard time selling melons with holes pecked through them.
I have customers who say they shoot six hundred rounds a day at a good 
prairie dog town and never seem to put a dent in them.  The prairie dogs 
carry a flea that causes black plague, so they do not want their numbers 
to get out of hand.

350 yards, by the way, is still a long shot in my book.
Terry


Charles Perry Locke wrote:


Terry,

  I bet you were not using a .50, were ya? I used to be a varmint 
hunter...shot a .243 Remington 700. Longest kill - a groundhog at 
350yds. Still nothing compared those Canadian snipers,though. Merry 
Christmas.


Perry



From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

I killed a buck at sixty yards this afternoon and thought I had done 
something, then I read this.



No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.7/214 - Release Date: 
12/23/2005






--
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[TruthTalk] [Fwd: atta-boy Canadians]

[Terry Clifton]

  

  
  
  
  


  
  
  
  


  
  
  
  


  
  
  
  


  
  
  
  

  

I killed a buck at sixty yards this afternoon and thought I had done
something, then I read this.


http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/50calibre/50sniping.htm
 

Sniping with the .50 BMG in Afghanistan
New long-distance record set!

(The following is from the Canadian newspaper National Post. The
shooters were using .50 BMG rifles that had Lilja barrels on them
outfitted with Nightforce 5.5-22x NXS scopes.)
OTTAWA BLOCKS U.S. EFFORT TO HONOUR OUR SNIPERS: Canadian snipers
pose with their 50-calibre rifle at base camp in Kandahar. Five of the
men, whose names the military withheld for security reasons, were
nominated for Bronze Stars by the U.S. for their prowess in fighting
near Gardez. The sixth joined the unit later in the war.
Wait due to 'Canadian protocol'
A kill from 2,430 metres
By Michael Smith and Chris Wattie
National Post

The United States wants to give two teams of Canadian snipers the
Bronze Star, a decoration for bravery, for their work in rooting out
Taliban and al-Qaeda holdouts in eastern Afghanistan, but Canadian
defence officials put the medals on hold, the National Post has learned.
The five snipers spent 19 days fighting alongside the scout platoon
of the United States Army's 187th "Rakkasan" brigade last month,
clearing out diehard fighters from the mountains near Gardez in eastern
Afghanistan.
The Americans were so impressed by the Canadian snipers that they
recommended them for medals after the battle.
Sources told the Post that U.S. General Warren Edwards had already
signed the recommendation for five Bronze Stars for the sniper teams,
drawn from 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry,
last month. Gen. Edwards, deputy commanding general of coalition land
forces in Afghanistan, had recommended three Canadians for a Bronze
Star and two for a Bronze Star with distinction.
The night before the troops were to be awarded the medals, about three
weeks ago, Canadian military officials in Ottawa put the decorations on
hold, according to a U.S. Army source in Afghanistan.
The Canadian military told their U.S. counterparts to wait before
awarding the medals for reasons of "Canadian protocol."
Spokesmen for the Department of National Defence would not comment
on the award last night, but a source within the department said the
medals are on hold while the military decides whether or not to award
the men a similar Canadian decoration.
However, Dr. David Bercuson, director of the Centre of Military and
Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary, said the real reason
for the delay was likely official squeamishness.
"Canadians don't kill -- they don't even use the word kill; that's
the problem," he said. "I think the military is not sure that the
government is prepared to accept the fact, let alone celebrate the fact
... that Canadian soldiers do sometimes end up killing people."
Many of the U.S. scouts who worked directly with the Canadian
snipers were incensed that the Canadians did not get the Bronze Star,
the medal for bravery the U.S. military usually gives foreign soldiers
serving alongside its troops.
The snipers themselves, all of whom spoke on condition their names
not be printed, have said they would prefer to receive a medal from
their peers in the field rather than from National Defence Headquarters
in Ottawa.
Dr. Bercuson said there should be no objection to Canadians
receiving a U.S. decoration: As recently as the Gulf War, two Canadian
CF-18 pilots were given the Bronze Star.
He said the medals would be a badly needed boost to the morale of
the almost 900 Canadian soldiers on the ground in Afghanistan,
especially after four of their comrades were killed and eight others
wounded in last week's friendly fire incident.
"Absolutely they should get it," Dr. Bercuson said. "It would be
good for the morale of the guys and good for the morale of the whole
unit, and they need a morale boost right now."
Canadian snipers were reportedly outstanding in the fighting around
the mountainous al-Qaeda bastion east of Gardez, code-named Operation
Anaconda.
The battle pitted the two Canadian sniper teams against an enemy that
showered the assaulting coalition troops with mortars and machine-gun
fire as soon as they jumped from their helicopters.
One member of the team, a corporal from Newfoundland, said on his
first night in combat he and his partner got an al-Qaeda machine gun in
their sights as it was hailing bullets down on U.S. troops below.
Crawling up into a good position, they set up their .50-calibre rifle
-- the McMillan Tac-50, a weapon the corporal compares to having
superhuman power in your hands. "Firing it feels like someone slashing
you on the back of your hockey helmet with a hockey stick." (These
are the rifles fitted with Lilja .50 caliber barrels and Nigh

Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!

[Terry Clifton]

I don't think so,Marlin.  What some are saying is "Lets get drunk and
make an ass of ourselves at the Christmas party".  Some are saying,
"Diamonds are forever".  Others are saying, "More stuff will
make me happy".
Some kids will get way too much today.  Others will get far too
little.  Very few will spend much of today celebrating the Gift God
gave all mankind.


Marlin halverson wrote:

  
  
  

  1.) Christ    2.) Mass
  
    I think we all know that "Christ" refers to God's Son
Jesus. The word "Mass" comes from Old English mæsse, a modification of (assumed) Vulgar Latin messa from the
Late Latin missa, literally meaning
"dismissal"; as in at the end of a religious service. The Middle
English Christemasse, comes from Old
English Cristes mæsse, literally, Christ's mass - shortened
to "Christ-mas". Meaning the "dismissal" or passing away of Christ; or
more directly, the death of Christ. Those who understand a bit
about the Catholic religion realize that the "Mass" always
refers to the sacrificial death of Christ. The word "Christmas" comes
from the Roman Catholic ritual.
  
  Folks walk around this time of year saying "Merry Christmas!" to each
other. I wonder if it occurs to anyone they are saying "Merry Death of
Christ." 
  www.truthontheweb.org/NwsClpz/122405.htm
-
  Maranatha

Re: [TruthTalk] With Thankful Hearts

[Terry Clifton]

Got you covered.
Terry


Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  
   
  Hey Everyone,
   
  Please pray for us - If I'm not available
for a while it's because I have a houseful of needy people; I hope
  everyone everyone
has a peaceful and joyous Christmas that is focused on the one true light during
these 
  diffficult times.  In His Love,  judyt
   
  P.S.  Just a wee testimony to the Lord's
faithfulness, love and grace.  It appears as though the marriage of
  our TX daughter is not going to make it
which is really sad for everyone involved and she is presently
travelling
  a lot of miles from Austin TX to Norf VA
with four kids, a dog, a rabbit, and a hamster in her minivan to be with
  us over Christmas.  Yesterday while she
was talking with me on the phone her van began to shudder and make 
  a funny noise.  They looked and she hadn't
blown a tire. Her dad talked her thru what
to do and helped her to 
  figure out
the mileage marker so she would know where she was at.  She then called
USAA and got some phone 
  numbers and a man met them at a Wendys and
drove them to a repair place.  It turned out there was a big
  chunk out of one of her tires and he said
they had seen this before and if she had been doing 70 mph and had
  a blowout it would have caused her van to overturn - how we rejoiced in the
Lords mercy and saving grace - 
  and how we thanked him for that warning. 
The tires are just 6 months old.
  

Re: [TruthTalk] Bats and the Blainer connection

[Terry Clifton]

Before you can mend 'em, you have to know how to speem, John. :)

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  As I scratch my head in merry wonder-mint (ah - the aroma of
ignorance is pleasent to the senses)  -  I must admit  not  "even a
guess"  and have given up, entirely , on mending fenses.  
   
  --
Original message -- 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

ok--i
was hopin' maybe BB'd buy a bat too--to defend his honor as a devotee
of JS to whom JC so wisely spaketh..say, do you know why JC
doesn't speak to DavidM partic so wisely?
 
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 06:56:09 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Let's do ahs.  Get me a price and I will exchange cash card
info.
   
  Also  --   I think you misundstand the purpose for my
purchase   (lol   --  really)
   
  --
Original message -- 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Maple
or ash, Bro--hickory is way too heavy and Blaine bein' light on his
feet and lightheaded too probably runs faster than you think
 
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 05:36:27 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

   
  G
   
  I want a bat.   Small diameter grip.  Signiture
"Pops --  2006 "    Hickory ??? 
   
  Long and light  -- is there such a thing?  
   
  jd
   
  --
Original message -- 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


true;
JC doesn't see Mormans as Christians--neither do I, Bro
 
 
On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 23:49:48 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  As Jesus said to Joseph Smith,
concerning the Christians of that day, "They
teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of
Godliness, but denying the power thereof."
  

  
   

  
   

  

[TruthTalk] [Fwd: [Infinite Supply] Saturday, December 24, 2005]

[Terry Clifton]

Let's all try to be big on the Ho Ho Hos today, and try to avoid the 
Humbugs.. He will know we are His if we have love for one another.

Blessings,
Terry

-

I N F I N I T E   S U P P L Y

Saturday, December 24, 2005

-

Hi Friend,

Today's meditation is taken from: 


THE GIFT OF CHRIST
by Chip Brogden

http://www.watchman.net/articles/gift.html

::

"It is of God that you are in Christ Jesus, Whom God has made to us wisdom, 
and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption" (I Corinthians 1:30).


Have you ever seen a brother or a sister try to act sanctified? They wear 
themselves and everyone else out. It is a burden to be around such a person.

That is not Christianity. Christianity is this: not that I am trying to be
wise, but that I receive the Lord Jesus as my Wisdom; not that I am trying 
to be righteous, but that I receive the Lord Jesus as my Righteousness; not 
that I am trying to be sanctified, but that I receive the Lord Jesus as my
Sanctification; not that I am trying to be redeemed, but that I accept the 
Lord Jesus as my Redemption. Henceforth I cease trying to be anything, and
I allow Him to be Who He is through me. 


We must be clear: these things are not the "reward" for years of faithful
service, or the fruit of walking with Jesus after a long period of time. 
If I have Him now, then I have all that pertains to Him now. My Wisdom, my
Righteousness, my Sanctification, and my Redemption has a personality, 
for He is all those things in me. It is not a question of my behavior, or

my conduct, or my feelings one way or the other - those things will come
into line soon enough - but it is all based upon this accomplished fact.
Christ is God's Gift. I repeat, we have much to praise God about! 

:: 




--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] My Return

[Terry Clifton]

Dave Hansen wrote:

DAVEH:   Note to Fellow TTers:   Perry is allowing me to return to TT 
without restriction.  Due to my recent rather harsh treatment of him 
as he performed his Moderator duties, I owe him an apology for showing 
less than the respect he deserved as our Moderator, and to you TTers 
as well for my less than Christian attitude toward him in that 
capacity.  My sincere apologies to all involved parties.
   Furthermore..despite my failure to see eye to eye with Perry on 
many things, I would like to express my thanx to Perry for the time 
and effort he has given TT as Moderator, and for DavidM mediating the 
dispute I've had with Perry in the recent past.


   Rather than go back and revisit old threads and subjects which are 
rather stale at this point, if there is anything in particular anybody 
would like to discuss with me, please bring it to the Forum again.

===


Good mornin, Dave.
God loves you, and because God loves you,  I love you.
Welcome back.
Terry

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

[Terry Clifton]

I don't know fer sure just who is right and who is all wet, but since no 
one that I know of has been healed by my shadow, I ain't about to drink 
any poison.

Terry


Charles Perry Locke wrote:


From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>




Perry wrote:
> BTW, Izzy, the Holy Spirit revealed this
> understanding to me.

If this is being said in jest, I caution you like I did John that you 
should
be very careful and refrain from this.  Remember the commandment not 
to take
the Lord's name in vain.  It is very important for people to separate 
their
opinions from that which was revealed to them through the Holy 
Spirit, lest
we attribute false revelations to God and falsely represent him to 
others.

This would be a very serious crime.



  The very night that this was revealed to me I posted a rather 
lengthy description of what I newly understood, regarding these very 
verses. This was probably six months ago. After prayer for 
understanding about this passage, and reading the verses, a totally 
new understanding was revealed to me.


  Now, maybe it was not really revealed to me. Maybe I just had new 
insight of my own manufacture. Maybe I just saw it a different way 
this once. Perhaps the Holy Sopirit had nothing to do with it. Since 
this understanding was so different than what I previously had been 
taught that it means, maybe I just made the assumption the Holy Spirit 
had revealed it to me. Maybe I was just wihfully thinking that the 
Holy Spirit revealed it to me.


  Now, my question to you...how do I determine if it was the Holy 
Spirit giving me the understanding, or if it was all in my head?


Perry




--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: More from Fyre

[Terry Clifton]

Now this guy seems like he might be worth a listen,
Good stuff.
Terry



Lance Muir wrote:



- Original Message - From: "Jonathan Hughes" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: December 21, 2005 23:11
Subject: More from Fyre


To say that our theological statements carry the contamination of 
human fallenness and finitude does not mean that we can’t say true 
things. We can. It means that we say true things with a sense of 
humility and a sense that we may be wrong, we may be incomplete, we 
may need to rethink or reformulate to one degree or another our 
theological statements. I believe that truth is primarily discovered 
relationally, that is, in relationship to God and with help of the 
Spirit; not just rationally by applying the mind to the biblical 
text. Don’t think that I’m saying truth is discovered “irrationally.” 
Truth is transrational. Since the Enlightenment the West at worshiped 
at the altar of human rationality (the laws of non-contradiction, 
etc.) and sought to discover truth with laws of the mind. This is 
idolatry. We treat theology like any other discipline of, and I hate 
to say it, “science.” Gag.





--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you 
may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.org


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Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Quote I liked

[Terry Clifton]

Lance Muir wrote



All theological statements carry the marks of fallenness and finitude.


Woe is us!!!
--



--
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ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath

[Terry Clifton]

No argument there brother.  Judy has much to offer this group.
Terry

Dean Moore wrote:

  
  
  
  
   
  
  
  
  
cd: I will consider you point-But I
also see a lot of truth being presented correctly by Judy that should
be heeded-and it is ignored.



  

Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath

[Terry Clifton]

It seems to me,Judy, that the enemy is winning now by getting us all to
bicker instead of reason together.  I know that this is not personal,
but I also know that we are so far apart that we can take no prisoners.

 It takes time to change one's thinking.  If I yell at Lance and tell
him I am right and he is wrong, he will not say "Gee, I'd better
change"!  More likely he will just decide that I am a jerk and ignore
me.  It is also within the realm of possibility that I am wrong and he
is right and if we talk to each other as if we are talking to the Lord,
we are more inclined to try to reach an agreement, I would think.
It is not pride to say what God says, Judy.  The pride comes from
having a superior attitude.  John considered you arrogant a short time
back and more or less called you a liar when you said you did not
understand what he was saying.  That is an excellent example of a
superior attitude, but John is not the only one to write this way.  I
have been guilty of it.  You will have to decide for yourself I guess
if you are  too.
Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  
  
   
  Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
  
If we cannot all learn that, it would be better to just leave
this list and not communicate at all.  Someone has to show not only
love, but humility and concern for our Lord and each other.  
 
Then the adversary would have won by
shutting everyone up. You need to understand Terry that the war is not
personal.  It is not about you or me;
the war is against God's Word.
 
If the conservatives do not do it, we cannot expect the
liberals to do it.  Too much pride on both sides, and that includes you
and me  Terry
 
I don't consider it pride to say what
God says Terry.  Nor do I consider God or His Word to be political in
any way. Please pray about these judgments you are making.  Blessings,
judyt



  

Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath

[Terry Clifton]

Welcome back, Judy.
Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  
  
   
   
  Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes: That is exactly what I am talking about, David.  
  Jesus said "You have heard it said that you should love your
neighbor and hate your enemy, 
  but I tell you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you." 
Jesus is saying to change. Stop 
  doing it the way you have been taught.  I have a better way. 
Why did the Jews teach this?  
  Look at Leviticus 19:18.  It forbids hard feelings or bad
brhavior toward your neighbor, but there 
  is nothing there about the enemy.
   
  The principle is not new Terry; it has
been there all along. God did not have a change in personality
  after the incarnation/cross.  Overcoming
evil with good has always been there in fact Romans 12:20 is
  Proverbs 25:21,22 exactly and David acted
on this during his conflict with Shimei in 2 Sam 16:12.
  
If you doubt that, look at Samson.  He killed a thousand enemies with
the jawbone of an ass.  
  After he had killed nine hundred and ninety- nine, don't you
think the thousanth one asked for mercy?  
  Don't you think Samson could have taken him prisoner instead of
taking his life. 
   
  Why would he want to do that?  His
ministry to Israel was as a Judge or military leader and in this
  capacity he was serving God.  He did mess
up with Bathsheba and paid for it with his own life.
  They didn't have POW camps back then. 
Saul lost the Kingdom over disobedience in this area.
  Israel was in covenant with God and their
enemies were also His enemies.
   
   Look at King Saul.  God was with him until he showed mercy to
an enemy king.
   
  It wasn't exactly "mercy" - Saul just
didn't do what God said. He kept the best of everything and then
  refused to take responsibility for his
actions (telling Samuel it was because of
the people he directly
  disobeyed the Lord) and then he became impatient because Samuel was late in coming and took
it 
  upon himself to do the sacrifice when he knew better (sin of presumption) following which there
was
  no repentance and he added insult to
injury by seeing the witch of Endor. A
classic example of what 
  not to do.
  
I know that somewhere in proverbs we are told to feed our ememy, but
the reason given is not love.
   
  The reason is always love Terry.  God's
nature and character have always been love.  Love is not 
  something new
that was introduced from 5BC to 33AD
  
  
David Miller wrote: 
  

  Terry wrote:
  
  
I was not talking about divorce or brothers
or neighbors..  I was talking about enemies.

  
  
Again, when you say, "old law," are you talking about the law of Moses?

What "old law" allows a person to hate their enemies?  I hope you are not 
talking about the Torah.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

  


 
  
  

judyt    
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath

[Terry Clifton]

It's hard to give a definition so I will give you an example.  I do not
know if you are old enough to remember George Wallace, but he was just
a tad too liberal for me. That is the political picture.
 Seriously, I think that liberals are convinced that God is too loving
to send people like Judas to Hell.  That may be an ultra liberal. I am
not sure.  Conservarives take no chances on God being that kind and
play it safe by being as obedient as they can possibly be.  Fear of
God's wrath is as important to consider in my own walk as is my
gratitude for His mercy.

  A good word, Terry. I shall attempt
to take it to heart. By the by, just who do you perceive to be the
'liberals' on TT? How is it that you define 'liberal'? Yikes!! , have I
done 'it' already?
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
Terry Clifton 
To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org

Sent:
December 21, 2005 07:49
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath


Sometimes you hurt people to help people Dean.  I love Judy too.  I am
usually on her side in these stupid arguements we are all having.  What
I told her was to help her communicate with those who find her so
abrasive.  If we can clean up our act, possibly they will clean up
their's and we can have some meaningful discussions.  Right now we are
biting great chunks out of one another simply trying to be top dog.  To
quote Jesus:"Do good to those who abuse you."  If we cannot all learn
that, it would be better to just leave this list and not communicate at
all.  Someone has to show not only love, but humility and concern for
our Lord and each other.  If the conservatives do not do it, we cannot
expect the liberals to do it.  Too much pride on both sides, and that
includes you and me
Terry


Dean Moore wrote:

  
  
  cd: Terry here is something for you to consider:
Rev:12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the women, and went to make war
with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God , and
have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
   Saint/Christians keeping the commandment
of God? All ten commandments are within the two you mentioned(ie love
of God and love of the brethern)-yet one cannot remove the ten from the
two-The ten gives understanding/boundries to the two.The ten shows how
to love and how to not sin by worshipping idols,breaking
sabbath,...etc.But as important is the love of the brethern as is
Judy-You should not have hurt her it is wrong.She was really trying to
help you and loved you.
   
  
   
  
    -----
Original Message - 
From:
Terry Clifton 
To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent:
12/19/2005 10:54:00 AM 
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath


Keeping the law has never saved anyone, girls. 
The law has value in that it shows us (to some extent) what sin is.  We
no longer offer a sacrifice because Jesus was our sacrifice.  If that
part of the law has been fulfilled, then all the law has been
fulfilled.  The shed blood of Jesus was far more valuable than the
blood of any sacrifice you can think of or all the sacrifices ever
offered stacked on an alter together.  The law is history, and history
only has value as a teacher.  Look at the verse you post in every
missive, Judy.  He that says, "I know Him", and doesn't keep HIS
commandments is a liar.  The two laws
given by Jesus are HIS commands.  The old law allowed you to
hate your enemy.  The new law requires you to love him.  Now you know. 
What are you going to do about it?  If the love is there, let it show,
'cause right now, Judy, I Truly wish I could see it in you and I
cannot, no matter how hard I try.  
I know it hurts you to read this, but it needed to be said.  I hope you
will examine yourself before you reply, then, when you are done, feel
free to examine me.  I am sure I have faults that I cannot see either.
Terry
ShieldsFamily wrote:

  
   
  
  
  
  
  Oooh, Judy, good point! iz 
  
  
  
   
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  On Behalf Of Judy
Taylor
  Sent: Monday,
December 19, 2005 5:52 AM
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath
  
  
  
  In a
message dated 12/17/2005 3:25:29 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
  
  


  
  Christ's
physical ministry was to the Jew, only.   He lived under the law and
was the fulfillment of that law.  In Him is
the end of the law.   
  
  
  
  
  
  In
Him is no such thing. 
God's l

Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath

[Terry Clifton]

Sometimes you hurt people to help people Dean.  I love Judy too.  I am
usually on her side in these stupid arguements we are all having.  What
I told her was to help her communicate with those who find her so
abrasive.  If we can clean up our act, possibly they will clean up
their's and we can have some meaningful discussions.  Right now we are
biting great chunks out of one another simply trying to be top dog.  To
quote Jesus:"Do good to those who abuse you."  If we cannot all learn
that, it would be better to just leave this list and not communicate at
all.  Someone has to show not only love, but humility and concern for
our Lord and each other.  If the conservatives do not do it, we cannot
expect the liberals to do it.  Too much pride on both sides, and that
includes you and me
Terry


Dean Moore wrote:

  
  
  
  
  cd: Terry here is something for you to consider:
Rev:12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the women, and went to make war
with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God , and
have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
   Saint/Christians keeping the commandment
of God? All ten commandments are within the two you mentioned(ie love
of God and love of the brethern)-yet one cannot remove the ten from the
two-The ten gives understanding/boundries to the two.The ten shows how
to love and how to not sin by worshipping idols,breaking
sabbath,...etc.But as important is the love of the brethern as is
Judy-You should not have hurt her it is wrong.She was really trying to
help you and loved you.
   
  
   
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
    Terry Clifton 
To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent:
12/19/2005 10:54:00 AM 
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath


Keeping the law has never saved anyone, girls.  The
law has value in that it shows us (to some extent) what sin is.  We no
longer offer a sacrifice because Jesus was our sacrifice.  If that part
of the law has been fulfilled, then all the law has been fulfilled. 
The shed blood of Jesus was far more valuable than the blood of any
sacrifice you can think of or all the sacrifices ever offered stacked
on an alter together.  The law is history, and history only has value
as a teacher.  Look at the verse you post in every missive, Judy.  He
that says, "I know Him", and doesn't keep HIS commandments
is a liar.  The two laws given by Jesus are HIS commands. 
The old law allowed you to hate your enemy.  The new law requires you
to love him.  Now you know.  What are you going to do about it?  If the
love is there, let it show, 'cause right now, Judy, I Truly wish I
could see it in you and I cannot, no matter how hard I try.  
I know it hurts you to read this, but it needed to be said.  I hope you
will examine yourself before you reply, then, when you are done, feel
free to examine me.  I am sure I have faults that I cannot see either.
Terry
ShieldsFamily wrote:

  
  
  
  
  
  
  Oooh, Judy, good point! iz 
  
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  On Behalf Of Judy
Taylor
  Sent: Monday,
December 19, 2005 5:52 AM
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath
  
  
  
  In a
message dated 12/17/2005 3:25:29 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
  
  


  
  Christ's
physical ministry was to the Jew, only.   He lived under the law and
was the fulfillment of that law.  In Him is
the end of the law.   
  
  
  
  
  
  In
Him is no such thing. 
God's law has not gone anywhere.  In fact according to the apostle John
who writes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the New
Testament "SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW" So
how can one transgress against something that is ended?  Or are you
saying that nobody sins anymore since you have proclaimed the end of
the law?
  
  
  
  


  
  
judyt    
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)
  



<
/BODY>

Re: [TruthTalk] For Terry

[Terry Clifton]

You are probably on to something here, David.  I cannot say for sure.  
Anyone who loves the Lord will, if for no other reason than to be 
obedient, love the Lord's people.  I am saying that I could not see it 
in the way she responded to people.  Judy is not the only one on here to 
affect me that way.  I see the same thing in myself and others at times.


David Miller wrote:


I have a very easy time seeing Judy as a very loving person. Others have

expressed much grief over her posts, and much of the time I am somewhat 
surprised by such responses.  Nevertheless, your advice here I think is very 
helpful if Judy will hear it.  While I see a lot of love in Judy and her 
posts, she does have a tendency not to be able to hear the other side.  This 
is not necessarily a bad thing.  Many times in attempting to hear the other 
side, we ourselves lose a piece of truth that we should not.  Many times 
Judy's posts have helped me from ignoring certain basic principles and 
truths in my effort to hear the other side.  Therefore, what some might see 
as a defect or weakness, I see an aspect of strength in it.


Perhaps love is not the right word choice in your comments to Judy 
concerning what she is lacking.  Empathy is what you are really talking 
about.  Love is concern and care for others.  I think Judy has that. 
Empathy is the ability to understand and identify with another person's 
feelings or difficulties.  There is perhaps some room for improvement in 
regards to this concerning theologians like Barth, Calvin, etc., or certain 
list members like John, Lance, Gary, Bill, etc.  The question really is, 
should Judy be more empathic toward individuals such as these?


Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

 



--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Question for Lance

[Terry Clifton]

I agree that there will be a new Heaven and a new earth.  How they will
be connected or seperated is beyond me.  I would think that I would
quickly tire of walking streets of gold but at the same time, I want to
be where Jesus is.
  When you speak of no millenium, do you mean no thousand year reign?

 Lance Muir wrote:

  
  
  
  Only slightly, Terry.
   
  The former is, IMO obviously, a
biblical/theological construction which was a mistake to begin with. It
has since taken on a life of it's own.
   
  The latter simply means that in the
'end' the kingdom will be on earth.  
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
    Terry Clifton 
To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org

Sent:
December 20, 2005 08:57
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Question for Lance


Would you care to expand on that statement?

Lance Muir wrote:

  

  
  There is NO MILLENIUM! We are
where HEAVEN will be.    


  

Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath

[Terry Clifton]

You could be right, Dean.

Dean Moore wrote:

  
  
  
  
  cd: Then you are looking as a blind man would -Judys love is in
her desire to help you and others on better understanding God's word-as
that strengthens you souls and it's relationship with the creator-This
is why she fights put so much energy into her work-for you and the
others.
   
  
   
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
Terry Clifton 
To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent:
12/19/2005 1:42:41 PM 
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath


I am sorry Judy.  It pains me to say it, but I do
not see any love in you.  I see an intense desire to be right and I see
at least a tendency to condemn those who do not see it as you do.  I
hope that love is there.  I hope I am just blind to it and do not see
it because of my inability.  I thought you should know that if it is
there, I cannot see it, because others may have the same problem.
Thanks for clearing up your perceptions of the remaining law.
Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  I'm talking about God's moral law
Terri and Jesus did not negate any of that.  The ceremonial law was for
  the Levitical priesthood which has
passed away.  He is now our Prophet, Priest, and King.  Jesus
Commandments
  are the Spirit of the Law which as you
say is based on Love, but then so is God's moral law.  Most of the 
  10 Commandments are basically the
Golden Rule.
   
  Terry, please tell me.  If you could
see the love in me - what would it look like?  Can you describe it
please?  judyt
   
  On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:53:35 -0600 Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
  
Keeping the law has never saved anyone, girls.  The law
has value in that it shows us (to some extent) what sin is.  We no
longer offer a sacrifice because Jesus was our sacrifice.  If that part
of the law has been fulfilled, then all the law has been fulfilled. 
The shed blood of Jesus was far more valuable than the blood of any
sacrifice you can think of or all the sacrifices ever offered stacked
on an alter together.  The law is history, and history only has value
as a teacher.  Look at the verse you post in every missive, Judy.  He
that says, "I know Him", and doesn't keep HIS commandments
is a liar.  The two laws given by Jesus are HIS commands. 
The old law allowed you to hate your enemy.  The new law requires you
to love him.  Now you know.  What are you going to do about it?  If the
love is there, let it show, 'cause right now, Judy, I Truly wish I
could see it in you and I cannot, no matter how hard I tr
y.  
I know it hurts you to read this, but it needed to be said.  I hope you
will examine yourself before you reply, then, when you are done, feel
free to examine me.  I am sure I have faults that I cannot see either.
Terry
ShieldsFamily wrote: 

  
  
  
  
  
  
  Oooh, Judy, good point! iz 
  
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  On Behalf Of Judy
Taylor
  Sent: Monday,
December 19, 2005 5:52 AM
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath
  
  
  
  In a
message dated 12/17/2005 3:25:29 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
  
  


  
  Christ's
physical ministry was to the Jew, only.   He lived under the law and
was the fulfillment of that law.  In Him is
the end of the law.   
  
  
  
  
  
  In
Him is no such thing. 
God's law has not gone anywhere.  In fact according to the apostle John
who writes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the New
Testament "SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW" So
how can one transgress against something that is ended?  Or are you
saying that nobody sins anymore since you have proclaimed the end of
the law?
  
  
  
  


  
  
judyt    
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)
  


 
  
  

judyt    
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] Question for Lance

[Terry Clifton]

Would you care to expand on that statement?

Lance Muir wrote:

  
  

  
  There is NO MILLENIUM! We are where
HEAVEN will be.    

Re: [TruthTalk] For Lance

[Terry Clifton]

I understand.  Do whatever you think will please the Lord.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  These words  I didn't understand it JD,  It was incomprehensible to me 
  struck me as casting my writing in the same light as DM often
does.   I regard such as blatant arrognace.   I do not believe for a
second that Judy could not understand what I wrote !!  She pretends
to not be at war with me -  yet she opposes my
words with every post.  She has called me the Accuser, knowing full
well the biblcal usage of that word.   I consider the source, but it
does get tiring.   
  That she is not at war with me is simply not believable.  I see
no sincerity in her post.  Sorry.
   
  --
Original message -- 
From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Where is the arrogance, John?  This is one of her better efforts.  Give
credit where it is due.  Please?  We are sposed to be family.  Let's
try harder.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Arrogance will get you nowhere.
   
  --
Original message -- 
From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

I didn't understand it JD,
It was incomprehensible to me and I
don't consider myself at war with you.
I was not intentionally being rude
about it and didn't know you wanted an answer. 
Guess I am so used to being set up
and then knocked down here.
Sorry about that.  ATST you are
misjuding me.
 
On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:10:04 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Do you not ignore questions I ask of you, nearly
everyday?   The post written 
  last night asking about a "truce"  ??   That was written
under the direction of 
  the Holy Spirit, Judy.  It was a very emotional
experience and clearly, from God.   
  Your response?  Ignore, ignore , ignore.  
   
  jd 
   
  From:
Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

 
You have not answered my question Lance ... are you
going to ignore this one also?
 

You wrote:
 

You are a tripartate who has a disdain
for things of the earth which by extension indicates 
that you do not apprehend the significance of the
Incarnation and the humanity of Jesus.
 
Do you actually believe your
salvation comes through Jesus' humanity Lance?
What does that mean - and in the
light of it - Please tell me what the
scripture
below means:
 
"and so it is written. The first
man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam
was made a quickening spirit. 
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual. The
first man is of the earth
earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is
the earthy such are they also
that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are
they also that are heavenly. 
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we
shall also bear the image of the
heavenly.  Now this I say brethren, that flesh
and blood cannot inherit the
kingdom of God, neither doth corruption inherit
incorruption"  (2 Cor 15:45-50)


judyt    
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)



  
   



judyt    
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)
  


  

Re: [TruthTalk] For Lance

[Terry Clifton]

Where is the arrogance, John?  This is one of her better efforts.  Give
credit where it is due.  Please?  We are sposed to be family.  Let's
try harder.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Arrogance will get you nowhere.
   
  --
Original message -- 
From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

I didn't understand it JD,
It was incomprehensible to me and I
don't consider myself at war with you.
I was not intentionally being rude about
it and didn't know you wanted an answer. 
Guess I am so used to being set up and
then knocked down here.
Sorry about that.  ATST you are
misjuding me.
 
On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:10:04 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Do you not ignore questions I ask of you, nearly everyday?  
The post written 
  last night asking about a "truce"  ??   That was written
under the direction of 
  the Holy Spirit, Judy.  It was a very emotional experience
and clearly, from God.   
  Your response?  Ignore, ignore , ignore.  
   
  jd 
   
  From:
Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

 
You have not answered my question Lance ... are you going
to ignore this one also?
 

You wrote:
 

You are a tripartate who has a disdain for
things of the earth which by extension indicates 
that you do not apprehend the significance of the
Incarnation and the humanity of Jesus.
 
Do you actually believe your
salvation comes through Jesus' humanity Lance?
What does that mean - and in the
light of it - Please tell me what the
scripture
below means:
 
"and so it is written. The first man
Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam
was made a quickening spirit. 
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual. The
first man is of the earth earthy;
the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is
the earthy such are they also that
are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are
they also that are heavenly.  And as
we have borne the image of the earthy, we
shall also bear the image of the
heavenly.  Now this I say brethren, that flesh
and blood cannot inherit the kingdom
of God, neither doth corruption inherit
incorruption"  (2 Cor 15:45-50)


judyt    
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)



  
   



judyt    
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)
  

Re: [TruthTalk] And Gary, and John, and Bill and, on occasion(s), Linda and David

[Terry Clifton]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   
     It is legalism that filters the
nat and chokes on the camel.  
  

Or verse visa

Re: [TruthTalk] For Terry

[Terry Clifton]

Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  
   
  Terry,
  You wrote a very explicit comment about me
personally earlier today which caused me to 
  respond with the following question.  If
you are walking in the kind of love you accuse me of
  being void of ... Then could you please
answer the following for me.
   
  Terry, please tell me.  If you could see
the love you say you don't see in me - 
  What would it look like?  Can you describe it please?  Does any person
demonstrate it on TT?
   
   judyt

If I could see it I could possibly describe it Judy, but I cannot see
it.  This concerns you so you obviously want to show people you love or
care about them.  The thing is, it just doesn't come through.  I can
see that you know your Bible.  I can agree with much of what you post. 
I can see that you try to live a life pleasing to the Lord.  The only
thing missing is the love for others.  Let me throw out a couple of
possibilities for you to consider that might help.  I am not suggesting
that you stop being you.  I am suggesting that you change your pattern
a little to let others see the care you have in your heart.  I would
suggest first, that you need not respond to every post.  Let some of
them go by without a comment.  Second, you might ask why a person came
to his or her conclusion rather than just telling them flat out that
they do not know what they are talking about.  (I seldom know what G or
Bill is talking about, but I seldom comment on anything they say) 
Surprisingly, I think Bill cares about the people here, maybe as much
as Dean does.  I see John and Izzy at their best and at their worst. 
Both of them , I believe, make a decision to be kinder and more loving,
but their button eventually gets pushed and they start replying as you
do.
I know personally of David Millers love.  He offered me financial help
that ,thank the Lord, I did not need at the time, but the offer was
sincere.  He wanted to help me.  That makes it easy to love him, cause
like Christ, he loved me first.  Marlin wanted to help his neighbor a
while back, so no need to question the love in his heart.  The others
on the list have probably not impressed me one way or the other.  I
choose to think the best of them.
 We all have a long way to go in this area, Judy.  You are not in this
boat by yourself.  None of us has reached the other shore.  I had to
peek around my beam to write what I did. Please think about what I've
said.  I meant to help, even if the short term result is hurtful.  I
will be praying for you.
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath

[Terry Clifton]

That is exactly what I am talking about, David.  Jesus said "You have
heard it said that you should love your neighbor and hate your enemy,
but I tell you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you."  Jesus
is saying to change.  Stop doing it the way you have been taught.  I
have a better way.  
Why did the Jews teach this?  Look at Leviticus 19:18.  It forbids hard
feelings or bad brhavior toward your neighbor, but there is nothing
there about the enemy.
If you doubt that, look at Samson.  He killed a thousand enemies with
the jawbone of an ass.  After he had killed nine hundred and ninety-
nine, don't you think the thousanth one asked for mercy?  Don't you
think Samson could have taken him prisoner instead of taking his life. 
Look at King Saul.  God was with him until he showed mercy to an enemy
king.
I know that somewhere in proverbs we are told to feed our ememy, but
the reason given is not love.


David Miller wrote:

  Terry wrote:
  
  
I was not talking about divorce or brothers
or neighbors..  I was talking about enemies.

  
  
Again, when you say, "old law," are you talking about the law of Moses?

What "old law" allows a person to hate their enemies?  I hope you are not 
talking about the Torah.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath

[Terry Clifton]

I am sorry Judy.  It pains me to say it, but I do not see any love in
you.  I see an intense desire to be right and I see at least a tendency
to condemn those who do not see it as you do.  I hope that love is
there.  I hope I am just blind to it and do not see it because of my
inability.  I thought you should know that if it is there, I cannot see
it, because others may have the same problem.
Thanks for clearing up your perceptions of the remaining law.
Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  
  
  I'm talking about God's moral law Terri
and Jesus did not negate any of that.  The ceremonial law was for
  the Levitical priesthood which has passed
away.  He is now our Prophet, Priest, and King.  Jesus Commandments
  are the Spirit of the Law which as you say
is based on Love, but then so is God's moral law.  Most of the 
  10 Commandments are basically the Golden
Rule.
   
  Terry, please tell me.  If you could see
the love in me - what would it look like?  Can you describe it please? 
judyt
   
  On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:53:35 -0600 Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
  
Keeping the law has never saved anyone, girls.  The law has
value in that it shows us (to some extent) what sin is.  We no longer
offer a sacrifice because Jesus was our sacrifice.  If that part of the
law has been fulfilled, then all the law has been fulfilled.  The shed
blood of Jesus was far more valuable than the blood of any sacrifice
you can think of or all the sacrifices ever offered stacked on an alter
together.  The law is history, and history only has value as a
teacher.  Look at the verse you post in every missive, Judy.  He
that says, "I know Him", and doesn't keep HIS commandments
is a liar.  The two laws given by Jesus are HIS commands. 
The old law allowed you to hate your enemy.  The new law requires you
to love him.  Now you know.  What are you going to do about it?  If the
love is there, let it show, 'cause right now, Judy, I Truly wish I
could see it in you and I cannot, no matter how hard I try.  
I know it hurts you to read this, but it needed to be said.  I hope you
will examine yourself before you reply, then, when you are done, feel
free to examine me.  I am sure I have faults that I cannot see either.
Terry
ShieldsFamily wrote: 

  

  
  
  Oooh, Judy, good point! iz 
  
  
  
   
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  On Behalf Of Judy
Taylor
  Sent: Monday,
December 19, 2005 5:52 AM
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath
  
  
  
  In a
message dated 12/17/2005 3:25:29 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
  
  


  
  Christ's
physical ministry was to the Jew, only.   He lived under the law and
was the fulfillment of that law.  In Him is
the end of the law.   
  
  
  
  
  
  In
Him is no such thing. 
God's law has not gone anywhere.  In fact according to the apostle John
who writes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the New
Testament "SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW" So
how can one transgress against something that is ended?  Or are you
saying that nobody sins anymore since you have proclaimed the end of
the law?
  
  
  
  


  
  
judyt    
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)
  


 
  
  

judyt    
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath

[Terry Clifton]

I was not talking about divorce or brothers or neighbors..  I was
talking about enemies.

David Miller wrote:

  Terry wrote:
  
  
The old law allowed you to hate your enemy.

  
  
When you say, "old law," are you talking about the Torah of Moses?  Where 
does it allow anyone to hate anybody?  I don't see how this is possible 
because Jesus said that those who love God and love their neighbor fulfill 
the requirements of the Torah of Moses.

Do you mean that the Torah was more permissible than the New Covenant, for 
example, allowing for divorce whereas Jesus did not?  Is that what you are 
talking about?

Please consider the following passage from Torah:

Leviticus 19:17
(17) Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise 
rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

  

Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath

[Terry Clifton]

Keeping the law has never saved anyone, girls.  The law has value in
that it shows us (to some extent) what sin is.  We no longer offer a
sacrifice because Jesus was our sacrifice.  If that part of the law has
been fulfilled, then all the law has been fulfilled.  The shed blood of
Jesus was far more valuable than the blood of any sacrifice you can
think of or all the sacrifices ever offered stacked on an alter
together.  The law is history, and history only has value as a
teacher.  Look at the verse you post in every missive, Judy.  He
that says, "I know Him", and doesn't keep HIS commandments
is a liar.  The two laws given by Jesus are HIS commands. 
The old law allowed you to hate your enemy.  The new law requires you
to love him.  Now you know.  What are you going to do about it?  If the
love is there, let it show, 'cause right now, Judy, I Truly wish I
could see it in you and I cannot, no matter how hard I try.  
I know it hurts you to read this, but it needed to be said.  I hope you
will examine yourself before you reply, then, when you are done, feel
free to examine me.  I am sure I have faults that I cannot see either.
Terry
ShieldsFamily wrote:

  
  


  
  
  
  Oooh, Judy, good point! iz 
   
  
  
  
  From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Judy Taylor
  Sent: Monday, December
19, 2005
5:52 AM
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk] Saturday
Sabbath
  
   
  
  In a
message dated 12/17/2005 3:25:29
P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
  


  
  Christ's
physical ministry was to the
Jew, only.   He lived under the law and was the fulfillment of that
law.  In Him is the end of the
law.   
  
  
   
  
  
  In
Him is no such
thing.  God's law has
not gone
anywhere.  In fact according to the apostle John who writes under the
inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament "SIN IS THE
TRANSGRESSION OF
THE LAW" So how can one transgress against
something that is ended?  Or are you saying that nobody sins anymore
since
you have proclaimed the end of the law?
  
  
   
  


  
  
judyt   
  
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
 
is a liar (1 John 2:4)
  

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: what is new for me

[Terry Clifton]

If your principles reflect Him perfectly, would your speech and
behavior also do the same?

ShieldsFamily wrote:

  
  


  
  
  
  If we really
know the Person, our
principles will reflect Him perfectly.  There is no dichotomy for those
walking
in the Spirit.  iz
   
  
  
  
  From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Sunday, December
18, 2005
9:56 AM
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk] Fw: what
is new for me
  
   
  
  And this:    We measure
the options against
principles instead of responding/submitting to a Person.
  
  
   
  
  
-- Original message
-- 
From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

 


- Original Message
- 

From: Debbie Sawczak



To: Lance
Muir



Sent: December 17, 2005
19:43


Subject: what is new for me



 


is not the understanding
that this is our condition. What is
new is the connection between that condition and "knowledge of good
and evil"--that this is the meaning of the name of the tree in the
Genesis story.


 


D

  
  

[TruthTalk] [Fwd: [Infinite Supply] Sunday, December 18, 2005]

[Terry Clifton]

--




 This little daily blurb seems to point out the real difference between the
Mormon religion and living by faith
::

"For I determined to not know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him 
crucified" (I Corinthians 2:2).


Religion seeks to reform a man; the Cross seeks to crucify him. Religion
may fail to bring about the desired result, but the Cross never fails to
achieve its end. Mankind will pursue morality, virtue, spirituality, even
perform religious works and good deeds, in order to avoid death on a Cross.
But there are no wounds, no scars, no evidence of having ever died and been 
made alive unto God. Either a man has never died, or he has died and been
raised again. You cannot fake a resurrection. 

The Cross is the means by which God reduces us to Christ, that we may be 
raised to new Life. What cannot be accomplished in a lifetime of self-effort

is easily accomplished in God through the Cross. We may take many shortcuts
along the way and attempt to escape the inevitable, but the day we cease
striving and meekly accept the Cross we find everything is done for us.
In fact, death by crucifixion cannot be accomplished by suicide. We cannot 
crucify ourselves. The instrument of our death is chosen for us, as well as 
the manner in which it is carried out, the timing and the duration of the

execution - all is controlled by Another. There is nothing to be done,
for we must submit to the Unseen Hand and cast ourselves completely upon
Him.

:: 


Infinite Supply
http://www.watchman.net/daily


:: 



Like these messages?  INFINITE SUPPLY is now available in book form!

Get your copy here:
http://www.watchman.net/books/infinite.html




-

(c)2004 Watchman.Net. Permission is granted for non-commercial (free) 
distribution provided this notice appears.




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--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath

[Terry Clifton]

Dean Moore wrote:

  
  
  
  
As for the Commandments being only for the Jews
you are wrong-dead wrong. The ceremonial law (ie. the Holy Feast
days),the Priestly law ,and the dietary law are non- binding to
Christians but this does not include the commandments.Terry you need to
learn these distinctions. Consider the forth Commandment and the
obligation the stranger within the gates had in keeping
it-Exod.20:10-these strangers were gentiles.How can you overlook 1JN
2:4-Judy puts that passage on all her postings?
  

Leviticus 27:34  THESE are the commandments which the Lord commanded
Moses for the children of Israel!  That is not me, Dean.  I am
not a Jew.  I have two commandments, given to me by my Savior. "Love
God more than anything or anybody, and love others as myself." 
Absolutely nothing in there about Saturday or Wednesday, or holiday or
rainy day.  I can even eat pork and shrimp and rabbit and all that
stuff that is against the law for Isrealites.  I have great freedom
along with great responsibility.  Please don't load me up with stuff
that was never meant for me.  No Jew except Christ has ever kept the
law.  What makes you think I could? 
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] sweat

[Terry Clifton]

If Christ had not been nailed to the cross, His death would have meant
nothing.  Prophecy said He had to be lifted up.

Terry

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  
  
   
   
  Then what do you think Gethsemane was all about?  He shed blood
then, as well as on the cross, and was in such an agony as to almost
die.    Dying was not the only sacrifice he made.  He suffered for sin
in Gethsemane, he died on Calvary, in order to overcome death, and made
it possible for us to do the same.  He had to die, but I am not so sure
it had to be on the cross.
   
  In a message dated 12/16/2005 8:59:53 P.M. Mountain Standard
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  

 
 

 

  -
Original Message - 
  From:
  
  To:
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Sent:
12/16/2005 6:17:55 PM 
  Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] sweat
  
  
  
  
  Hmm, good points, Kevin, but I doubt there is really a
discrepancy or contradiction, otherwise how are you going to explain
the agony of Gethsemene?  What he suffered on the cross was more
physical, which lead to his death--but there obviously was the agony of
Gethsemene, wherein he suffered for the sins of mankind, to such an
extent as to come just short of dying.  I am not sure why dying had to
take place on the cross, eventually, unless it has something to do with
overcoming death--which had to be done in order to overcome the effects
of Adam's transgression and fall, wherein death was brought into the
world.  That would make sense to me--but let's face it, the entire
matter of his being able to reconcile man with God after the fall of
Adam which brought sin and death
into the world was a great miracle.  I am not sure any man fully
comprehends it.  We see in part through the glass darkly now, but
someday we will see more clearly, hopefully.&nbs p;
   
  cd: The simple fact that Jesus walked
out of the garden and failed to walk away from the cross (yes, I Know
He rose 3 days later) but he had to be carried from the cross should
prove the cross was life threaten not the garden-In the Garden he was
praying hard for the believers and the world-so hard that blood fell as
drops of sweat would fall.John chapter 17 is the prayer he prayed in
the Garden -you should read it-good stuff. There have been other
Believers-through out history- who have also prayed in this manner hard
and had blood also come out of their pours as sweat would.
   
  In a message dated 12/16/2005 1:29:55 P.M. Mountain Standard
Time, 
  
  

  
   
  

Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath

[Terry Clifton]

Dean Moore wrote:

  
  
  
  
   
   
  
   
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
Terry Clifton 
To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent:
12/17/2005 1:19:38 PM 
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath


Dean Moore wrote:

  
  
   
   
  
   
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
Terry Clifton 
To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent:
12/16/2005 9:30:38 PM 
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath


Romans 14:4-6   Who are you to
judge another man's servant?  To his own master he stands or
falls..One person
esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike.  Let
each be fully convinced in his own mind.
You seem to be convinced, Iz, that you need to keep the Sabbath,
therefore you should do so.  I have no such conviction, so I do not. 
You esteem one day over another, I do not. That seem scriptural to you?

Terry-I realize this letter was written to  Izzy but I
would like to add input to better understand -or to learn more-of God's
word.
 
1. The above verse does not by any means take away the
obligation of keeping Gods 4 th commandment-it is a commandment of
Perpetual obligation,"Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it Holy "as God
sanctified it-and nowhere in the Bible is it shown to have been done
away with by the introduction of Christianity. Are you unsatisfying
this day with your use of Romans 14:4-6? Did Jesus tell the rich young
ruler that to enter heaven-one must keep the commandments but not the
4th? Does John 2 :4 State that He that saith, I know him and keepeth
not his commandments, EXCEPT THE SABBATH COMMANDMENT , is a liar, and
the truth is not in him? Surely it does no such thing .
 
2. No where in this verse is the Sabbath day even
mentioned-it is making reference to  the feasts days-and tell each" to
be fully persuaded in his own mind" if the thing he does is lawful or
not because the Jews  added many restrictions to the new Moon Days or
"Feast Day". Adam Clark and John Wesley both agree with this. Upon
being "fully persuaded" that the thing one does is lawful of not-one
would have to view the breaking of The 4th Commandment as
unlawful.Consider Romans 14:3 " Let him eateth not judge him that
eateth" If this is referring to the Sabbath then one must conclude that
it is wrong to eat on the Sabbath that no longer exists? The Jews
demanded restrictions on certain food onThe feast Day(s)-see Romans
14:2.
 
3. If one can decides by their "convictions which
commandments should be kept then they would no longer be 11
commandments but rather 11 choices and this would also allow the luke
warmers to break God's law without judgement as they only have to live
by their "convictions" and without the ability to listening to that
"still small voice" one convictions would be overruled by the desires
of the flesh that luke warmers follow anyway. Why then would there be
any need for the Word of God as we would not need it as we have private
convictions to do what is right in each mans own eyes. Thank God for
teaching us to observe his word as to fine tune our convictions unto
submission to His word as there is no truth apart from God. If you
Terry are "convicted" that one should either eat herbs or meat on the
feast Days then don't use this small giving liberty to encourage other
to break God's Commandment-nor do so yourself. Isa 66:22-24 shows the
keeping of the Sabbath follows into heaven-are you saying that in that
Holy place it is co ntinued but not here where it is needed most..
  

===

  
I appreciate your trying to help me Dean, but I do not
agree.



Terry

  
cd: You do realize that this is the Bible I am quoting
that you are disagreeing with?
 
 I realize that the commandments were for the children of
Israel.  I was never under the law and am not under the law now.  I
have no obligation to keep the Sabbath.  I am free from the law.





Terry

  

  
 
 
 
 


 

Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath

[Terry Clifton]

Dean Moore wrote:

  
  
  
  
   
   
  
   
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
Terry Clifton 
To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent:
12/16/2005 9:30:38 PM 
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath


Romans 14:4-6   Who are you to judge
another man's servant?  To his own master he stands or
falls..One person
esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike.  Let
each be fully convinced in his own mind.
You seem to be convinced, Iz, that you need to keep the Sabbath,
therefore you should do so.  I have no such conviction, so I do not. 
You esteem one day over another, I do not. That seem scriptural to you?

Terry-I realize this letter was written to  Izzy but I would
like to add input to better understand -or to learn more-of God's word.
 
1. The above verse does not by any means take away the
obligation of keeping Gods 4 th commandment-it is a commandment of
Perpetual obligation,"Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it Holy "as God
sanctified it-and nowhere in the Bible is it shown to have been done
away with by the introduction of Christianity. Are you unsatisfying
this day with your use of Romans 14:4-6? Did Jesus tell the rich young
ruler that to enter heaven-one must keep the commandments but not the
4th? Does John 2 :4 State that He that saith, I know him and keepeth
not his commandments, EXCEPT THE SABBATH COMMANDMENT , is a liar, and
the truth is not in him? Surely it does no such thing .
 
2. No where in this verse is the Sabbath day even mentioned-it
is making reference to  the feasts days-and tell each" to be
fully persuaded in his own mind" if the thing he does is lawful or not
because the Jews  added many restrictions to the new Moon Days or
"Feast Day". Adam Clark and John Wesley both agree with this. Upon
being "fully persuaded" that the thing one does is lawful of not-one
would have to view the breaking of The 4th Commandment as
unlawful.Consider Romans 14:3 " Let him eateth not judge him that
eateth" If this is referring to the Sabbath then one must conclude that
it is wrong to eat on the Sabbath that no longer exists? The Jews
demanded restrictions on certain food onThe feast Day(s)-see Romans
14:2.
 
3. If one can decides by their "convictions which commandments
should be kept then they would no longer be 11 commandments but rather
11 choices and this would also allow the luke warmers to break God's
law without judgement as they only have to live by their "convictions"
and without the ability to listening to that "still small voice" one
convictions would be overruled by the desires of the flesh that luke
warmers follow anyway. Why then would there be any need for the Word of
God as we would not need it as we have private convictions to do what
is right in each mans own eyes. Thank God for teaching us to observe
his word as to fine tune our convictions unto submission to His word as
there is no truth apart from God. If you Terry are "convicted" that one
should either eat herbs or meat on the feast Days then don't use this
small giving liberty to encourage other to break God's Commandment-nor
do so yourself. Isa 66:22-24 shows the keeping of the Sabbath follows
into heaven-are you saying that in that Holy place it is co
ntinued but not here where it is needed most..
  

===

  
I appreciate your trying to help me Dean, but I do not agree.



Terry

  


 

Re: [TruthTalk] ** Moderator comment **

[Terry Clifton]

Amen.
Terry

Dean Moore wrote:

  
  
  Kevin, Blain-while I am not
the Moderator I would like to remind you guys that according to the
Holy Spirit we are suppose to be subject to authority-Here Perry is
that authority.
   
  
   
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
Kevin Deegan 
To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent:
12/16/2005 10:53:49 PM 
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] ** Moderator comment **




Can you print the entire
context, please?   
Blainerb

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 1:00 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Izzy's sex life
>
>Hi Izzy, I was looking through some of my old e-mails and came upon

one with the above subject title--jus' thought I'd let you know I am
still 
>waiting with 'bated breath for your more complete description . . .
>
>Blainerb


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

  
  
  In a message dated 12/16/2005 2:03:37 P.M. Mountain Standard
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
Since you have been asked to stop stirring the pot
And some subjects have been identified as OFF LIMITS
I have declined to comment
But since you guys can not leave it alone
 
I was refering to your PRIVATE email off list to a member
of this list stating you were
"waiting with 'bated breath for your more complete
description . . ."

  
  First of all, I don't recall writing
to anyone in private.  If I did, it may have been because I had not
noticed it was private.  Who was it that got the letter in private,
Kevin?  Are you the one?  It must have been you, or Dean--both of you
have brought this up--and if it was private why did you post it
contrary to the rules?.
   
   Secondly,  I vaguely remember making
that comment, but I don't recall the context in which I made it.  Can
you print the entire context, please?   
  Blainerb
  
  


__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
  

Re: [TruthTalk] FW: A Message from Rabbi Daniel Lapin: "Why I Fight"

[Terry Clifton]

ShieldsFamily wrote:

  
  

  
  
   
   
  

  





A
special message from Rabbi Daniel Lapin...
 
 
 

  

  
   
  

So what is the message?

Re: [TruthTalk] sweat

[Terry Clifton]

  
  How about to fulfill prophecy?  Is that a good reason? 
   
  
   Blainer wrote
  
  

  I am not sure why dying had to take place on the cross,
eventually, unless it has something to do with overcoming death--which
had to be done in order to overcome the effects of Adam's transgression
and fall, wherein death was brought into the world. 

Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath

[Terry Clifton]

Romans 14:4-6   Who are you to judge another man's servant?  To
his own master he stands or
falls..One person
esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike.  Let
each be fully convinced in his own mind.
You seem to be convinced, Iz, that you need to keep the Sabbath,
therefore you should do so.  I have no such conviction, so I do not. 
You esteem one day over another, I do not. That seem scriptural to you?



Dean Moore wrote:

  
  
  
   
   
  
   
  
-
Original Message - 
From:

To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent:
12/16/2005 3:52:43 PM 
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Saturday Sabbath




In a message dated 12/15/2005 8:12:57 A.M. Mountain Standard
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Please tell
us your view of resting on the Saturday Sabbath.  I hesitate to bring
up the subject because of such stinking attitudes from some on TT.  iz

Blainerb:  I think the Saturday Sabbath is great, more power
to anyone who keeps a Sabbath of any kind, providing they sincerely
believe they are in the right.    The key here is that we are
consistent and honorable in what we do--that we maintain our
integrity.  As one man put it, "Whatsoever thou do est,  O man,
 play the part well."
 
But Saturday Sabbath obviously is a hold-over  from the Law of
Moses, so as such it is no longer binding--It was, further, the
practice of early Christians to honor the Lord's Day, or the first day
of the week, Sunday, in deference to the Lord's overcoming the final
enemy of mankind, death.  
 
cd: I don't believe you read the
attachment I sent with the 'Saturday Sabbath' Blain -I suggest you take
the time to do so as it will save us both some time.The Sabbath was
giving before Moses received the ten commandments which is the part of
the Law that is still with us (Gen 2:2,Exod 16:28).The early Christians
kept the Saturday Sabbath as both Jesus and Paul observed
Saturaday.Because the Lord rose the first day of the week does not void
the Sabbath-some kept both days. Every group or nation that forgot the
Sabbath in the bible was severely punished-Babylon captivity was in the
most part due to forgetting the Sabbath.

[TruthTalk] Time has an end

[Terry Clifton]

I have a Christian brother who was asking me what I thought about a book 
called "Time Has An End" by Harold Camping.  I have never heard of the 
author or the book.  Can anyone offer an opinion?

Terry
--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud

[Terry Clifton]

Don't have any idea why this thing is changing colors on me.
Terry

  

  Any way.Let me suggest
that at some point in everyone's life, God reveals Himself and offers
salvation to every individual.  I say that because God is not willing
that any be lost, and if it is not His will for any to be lost, then
all must have at some point, the opportunity to be saved.  Therefore,
if God is not at work in us now, He either has been, or will be.  So I
somewhat agree with John's statement.
  

  

    God, however, does not strive with men forever.  At some point,
He stamps the dust off 
  His feet and moves on.  Some are then given over to a
reprobate mind and are forever         lost.  Others will have
things enter their lives that remind them that the Father's love is 
such              that He will welcome them home at any time, and they
will then repent, so in some respect I agree with Judy, that God is not
continually working in the life of everyone.

  

                              Peace on earth,
or at least on TT?                                     Terry 
  

  


  

  I believe that Philip 2:12-13
reveals a point of truth for all men.   God is at work in us all.   But
we still have choices, which you you, as well.   So I am not sure why
you wrote the above.
   
  Because God is NOT at work in
ALL men.  He is at work in those who have 'by faith' received
  Christ
along with the indwelling Holy Spirit... who the world CAN NOT receive.  
  
   

  

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud

[Terry Clifton]

It is quite obvious, Judy.  Never on TT before have two people been so
compatible.  Must be the Qwanza, xmas, winter break spirit. :)


Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  
  
  Hi Terry,
   where would you get that idea?
   
  On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:51:49 -0600 Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
  
It is sooo nice to see that the two of you are finally in
agreement.




Judy Taylor wrote: 

  
  
  JD
  And so it is,  that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the
creation as a witness of God just as surely as God is at 
  work within him  both to will and to accomplish His
pleasure.   It is all about God.   We can either attach ourselves 
  to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only
reality that is and die.   What a choice !!
   
  We have no power to attach ourselves
to anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being
  drawn by the Father through the Spirit
by the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the
soul
  as we choose to walk in it.  
   
  In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know
by the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him
  as God and hold the truth in
unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened.  So where would
you get the
  idea that God is at work in those who have never surrendered to Christ?  These
people have a different spirit 
  at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2)
which is  the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience.
  At least this is what God says about
it.


 
  
  

judyt    
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud

[Terry Clifton]

It is sooo nice to see that the two of you are finally in agreement.




Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  
   
  JD
  And so it is,  that man (in Romans chapter 1) sees the creation
as a witness of God just as surely as God is at 
  work within him  both to will and to accomplish His pleasure.  
It is all about God.   We can either attach ourselves 
  to this reality and inherit life or we can refuse the only
reality that is and die.   What a choice !!
   
  We have no power to attach ourselves to
anything JD, we can only come to Christ one way and this is by being
  drawn by the Father through the Spirit by
the Word and it is the "engrafted Word" which is able to save the soul
  as we choose to walk in it.  
   
  In Romans 1:18,19 - Yes men can know by
the creation that there is a God, but when they don't glorify Him
  as God and hold the truth in
unrighteousness - their foolish hearts are darkened.  So where would
you get the
  idea that God is at work in those who have never surrendered to Christ?  These
people have a different spirit 
  at work in them (See Ephesians 2:1,2)
which is  the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience.
  At least this is what God says about it.

Re: [TruthTalk] Cross

[Terry Clifton]

Kevin Deegan wrote:

  Well Terry I am not going to stoop to using the words real
stupid.  That is good, Kevin.  You should only use that word when
it is appropriate.
  



  Why have you become so emotional?  

You might be imagining things.again.  I was not aware
that I had become at all emotional.

  
  
  Offi'cious
is a new word for me, but I like it.  It does the job, maybe
even better than gossip.



Kevin Deegan wrote:

  Maybe you mean talebearer as the word gossip does not appear
   
  Gossip n One who runs from house to house,
tattling and telling news; an idle tattler. 
   
  TA'LEBEARER, n. [tale and bear.] A person who
officiously tells tales; one who impertinently communicates
intelligence or anecdotes, and makes mischief in society by his
officiousness.
   
  OFFI'CIOUS a. Busy; intermeddling in
affairs in which one has no concern.
  
      
  Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
  I
am really sick of real stupid people who ASSUME to have facts they do
not have.  I believe the Bible refers to them as gossips.
Terry

Kevin Deegan wrote:

  NAW I am just sick of people that flap their gums.
  When it comes down to it they are all about words NOT
DEEDS!
   
  It is a False Piety to say that another should do such
& such when one does NOTHING.
   
  God's Work as you put it is NOT LIP SERVICE
  They profess that they
know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and
disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate..
  
  They profess to be doing the WORK of God but when
pressed they do not want to brag
   

  


  
  
  
   
  Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo!
Shopping 

Re: [TruthTalk] Cross

[Terry Clifton]

Offi'cious is a new word for me, but I like it.  It
does the job, maybe even better than gossip.



Kevin Deegan wrote:

  Maybe you mean talebearer as the word gossip does not appear
   
  Gossip n One who runs from house to house,
tattling and telling news; an idle tattler. 
   
  TA'LEBEARER, n. [tale and bear.] A person who officiously
tells tales; one who impertinently communicates intelligence or
anecdotes, and makes mischief in society by his officiousness.
   
  OFFI'CIOUS a. Busy; intermeddling in affairs
in which one has no concern.
  
  
  Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  I
am really sick of real stupid people who ASSUME to have facts they do
not have.  I believe the Bible refers to them as gossips.
Terry

Kevin Deegan wrote:

  NAW I am just sick of people that flap their gums.
  When it comes down to it they are all about words NOT DEEDS!
   
  It is a False Piety to say that another should do such &
such when one does NOTHING.
   
  God's Work as you put it is NOT LIP SERVICE
  They profess that they know
God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and
unto every good work reprobate..
  
  They profess to be doing the WORK of God but when pressed
they do not want to brag
   

  

Re: [TruthTalk] Cross

[Terry Clifton]

I am really sick of real stupid people who ASSUME to have facts they do
not have.  I believe the Bible refers to them as gossips.
Terry


Kevin Deegan wrote:

  NAW I am just sick of people that flap their gums.
  When it comes down to it they are all about words NOT DEEDS!
   
  It is a False Piety to say that another should do such &
such when one does NOTHING.
   
  God's Work as you put it is NOT LIP SERVICE
  They profess that they know God;
but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto
  every good work reprobate..
  
  They profess to be doing the WORK of God but when pressed they
do not want to brag
   
  Invariably when preaching in public, some christian comes up to
me and says you are doing it wrong you are going to turn them off. (If
I had a nickel for every time...)
  I ask them How many people have you told about Jesus this week?
  They want to change subjects, any idea why? Guess they want
their reward.
  Why would someone correct someone else about something they DO
NOT DO?
  Only reason could be, their conscience is bothering them.
  They know it is RIGHT to witness to the LOST
  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
I read your post a couple of times.   My comments appear to be
appropriate. 
 
--
Original message -- 
From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  A rather simple task is to read the post
instead of going off half cocked
  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
And what does your   little chuck and jive have to do with
Terry's remarks to Dean?  Not one single thing.   Few on this site have
a clue as to "ad hom."  but your comments below are "ad hom."   By
definition, ad hom is any statement that does not go directly to
the  discussion or remarks at hand.   Another phrase for "ad hom" is
"begging the question."   "Truth" regarding "ad hom" has NOTHING TO
DO WITH "AD HOM."   This is just something you all made up.    If
the response is an atack on any other issue but the one present,  it is
begging the question and is "ad hom."   
 
You have this fantasy that you are busier doing the
"Lord's work" than anyone else.   A ridiculous  assertion or two
levels  ("busier"  and "Lord's work)..   You are constantly demanding
that those who offer a criticisim measure up to YOU..  
Get a life and stay on subject   ---   or maybe you just
cannot do this rather simple task.  
 
jd
 
 
 
 
--
Original message -- 
From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  You have got to be joking,
Dean!  There is no sin of omission?  Is following Christ only about
correcting others?  How about giving a drink to a thirsty man?
   
  AND how do you do such?
   
  I find that most that speak like this are DOing nothing
of consequence. They love in "WORD" but never in DEED!
  It tends to be a device to soothe their conscience.
  The bible speaks of it this way.
  
  My little children, let us
not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and
in truth.
  Talk is cheap it does not cost a thing!
   
  As a proponent of PURE RELIGION
  Pure religion and
undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless
and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the
world.
   
      What are you DOing? Tell us of your DEEDS.
  Looking foward to
your TESTIMONY!   PTL!
   
  
  
  Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
  Dean
Moore wrote:

  
  
   
  You have got to be joking, Dean!  There is no sin of
omission?  Is following Christ only about correcting others?  How about
giving a drink to a thirsty man?  How about passing by the wounded on
the road to Damascus?  How about the guy broke down alongside the
interstate?  Can you please God by telling the thirsty guy he needs to
be saved and leave him in thirst.  Can you hand a tract to the guy
broke down miles from nowhere and go on?  I would never do that and
neither would you.
  

Terry

  
   
  
   
  

cd: There is a difference in pointing out
error and stoning someone to death.We can call sin ,sin and are told to
do so in the bible. Abstaining from original sin keeps one from being a
hypocrite as you are trying to make Judy appear. Adding sin of omission
in this manner is clouding the true message of the Gospel-If we are
living in the 11 commandments given to us then there is no sin of
omission for to have love of the brethren we will be helping them-

Re: [TruthTalk] Cross

[Terry Clifton]

You have your reward, Kevin.  I am still working on mine.  Draw any
conclusion from this that suits you.  It makes little difference what
you think.

Kevin Deegan wrote:

  It is always Bragging not False Piety?
  To TESTIFY how you are giving Drink to a thirsty man is BRAGGING?
  You brought up the subject, I thought you were gonna bless us
with some Testimony!
  Doesn't the bragging part come from ones ATTITUDE?
  Bragging is not in the essence of the act of compassion but is
something that comes forth from within ones heart.
  To simply say I work at the mission with the homeless would not
be bragging.
  Surely there must be some instance you could relate without
bragging
  To avoid the issue by using a device like I don't want to brag,
implies that you are doing so very much we could not avoid the thought.
  Or that you are doing nothing and must cover up.
  I see no reason that you could not give a simple statement and
not brag.
  There is a difference between what you do for God 
  AND
  What is God DOing Through you?
   
  Was Paul BRAGGING in 2 Co 11
  
  Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as
a fool) I am more; in labours more
abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent,
in deaths oft.
  
   
  What was your purpose in the original comments, but to imply you
are fufilling while Dean is "only about correcting others"
Is the "One who needs to know" Blessed by that?
  You are concerned and do not want to BRAG but have NO Problem
disparaging Dean?
  
  Funny how some preach but when asked to display how
they are DOing what they ask others to do, well then it would be
bragging LOL
  But I keep under my body, and bring it
into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached
to others, I myself should be a castaway.
   
  BTW You are right that God already knows
   
  Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
  To
tell you these things would be bragging, Kev.  What I am doing is known
by the One who needs to know.  He does it through me.  Remember the
instructions?  Don't let your right hand know what the other is doing. 
Those who brag about their deeds already have their rewards.  You might
think about that.
Terry
=

Kevin Deegan wrote:

  You have got to be joking, Dean! 
There is no sin of omission?  Is following Christ only about correcting
others?  How about giving a drink to a thirsty man?
   
  AND how do you do such?
   
  I find that most that speak like this are DOing nothing of
consequence. They love in "WORD" but never in DEED!
  It tends to be a device to soothe their conscience.
  The bible speaks of it this way.
  
  My little children, let us not
love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
  Talk is cheap it does not cost a thing!
   
  As a proponent of PURE RELIGION
  Pure religion and undefiled
before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows
in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
   
  What are you DOing? Tell us of your DEEDS.
  Looking foward to your
TESTIMONY!   PTL!
   
  
  
  Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
  Dean
Moore wrote:

  
  
   
  You have got to be joking, Dean!  There is no sin of
omission?  Is following Christ only about correcting others?  How about
giving a drink to a thirsty man?  How about passing by the wounded on
the road to Damascus?  How about the guy broke down alongside the
interstate?  Can you please God by telling the thirsty guy he needs to
be saved and leave him in thirst.  Can you hand a tract to the guy
broke down miles from nowhere and go on?  I would never do that and
neither would you.
  

Terry

  
   
  
   
  

cd: There is a difference in pointing out
error and stoning someone to death.We can call sin ,sin and are told to
do so in the bible. Abstaining from original sin keeps one from being a
hypocrite as you are trying to make Judy appear. Adding sin of omission
in this manner is clouding the true message of the Gospel-If we are
living in the 11 commandments given to us then there is no sin of
omission for to have love of the brethren we will be helping them-by
correction their error(s) ,and giving to them for their needs-then
there is on sin of omission.If not- feel free to point out those other
sins of omission?

  


  
  
  
   Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo!
Shopping 

  
  
  
   
  Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo!
Shopping 

Re: [TruthTalk] Cross

[Terry Clifton]

To tell you these things would be bragging, Kev.  What I am doing is
known by the One who needs to know.  He does it through me.  Remember
the instructions?  Don't let your right hand know what the other is
doing.  Those who brag about their deeds already have their rewards. 
You might think about that.
Terry
=

Kevin Deegan wrote:

  You have got to be joking, Dean!  There
is no sin of omission?  Is following Christ only about correcting
others?  How about giving a drink to a thirsty man?
   
  AND how do you do such?
   
  I find that most that speak like this are DOing nothing of
consequence. They love in "WORD" but never in DEED!
  It tends to be a device to soothe their conscience.
  The bible speaks of it this way.
  
  My little children, let us not
love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
  Talk is cheap it does not cost a thing!
   
  As a proponent of PURE RELIGION
  Pure religion and undefiled before
God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their
affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
   
  What are you DOing? Tell us of your DEEDS.
  Looking foward to your
TESTIMONY!   PTL!
   
  
  
  Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Dean
Moore wrote:

  
  
   
  You have got to be joking, Dean!  There is no sin of
omission?  Is following Christ only about correcting others?  How about
giving a drink to a thirsty man?  How about passing by the wounded on
the road to Damascus?  How about the guy broke down alongside the
interstate?  Can you please God by telling the thirsty guy he needs to
be saved and leave him in thirst.  Can you hand a tract to the guy
broke down miles from nowhere and go on?  I would never do that and
neither would you.
  

Terry

  
   
  
   
  

cd: There is a difference in pointing out error
and stoning someone to death.We can call sin ,sin and are told to do so
in the bible. Abstaining from original sin keeps one from being a
hypocrite as you are trying to make Judy appear. Adding sin of omission
in this manner is clouding the true message of the Gospel-If we are
living in the 11 commandments given to us then there is no sin of
omission for to have love of the brethren we will be helping them-by
correction their error(s) ,and giving to them for their needs-then
there is on sin of omission.If not- feel free to point out those other
sins of omission?

  


  
  
  
   
  Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo!
Shopping 

Re: [TruthTalk] Cross

[Terry Clifton]

My apology, Dean.  I was trying to read everything before going to work
and got to reading too fast to understand what I was reading.
Terry

Dean Moore wrote:

  
  
  
  
  cd: I have underlined some of my words that you need to reread
as you are actually agreeing with what I wrote.
   
  
   
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
Terry Clifton 
To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent:
12/15/2005 8:33:44 AM 
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Cross


Dean Moore wrote:

  
  
   
  You have got to be joking, Dean!  There is no sin of
omission?  Is following Christ only about correcting others?  How about
giving a drink to a thirsty man?  How about passing by the wounded on
the road to Damascus?  How about the guy broke down alongside the
interstate?  Can you please God by telling the thirsty guy he needs to
be saved and leave him in thirst.  Can you hand a tract to the guy
broke down miles from nowhere and go on?  I would never do that and
neither would you.
  

Terry

  
   
  
   
  

cd: There is a difference in pointing out error
and stoning someone to death.We can call sin ,sin and are told to do so
in the bible. Abstaining from original sin keeps one from being a
hypocrite as you are trying to make Judy appear. Adding sin of
omission in this manner is clouding the true message of the Gospel-If
we are living in the 11 commandments given to us then there is no sin
of omission for to have love of the brethren we will be helping them-by
correction their error(s) ,and giving to them for their needs-then
there is on sin of omission.If not- feel free to point out those other
sins of omission?

  

Re: [TruthTalk] Cross

[Terry Clifton]

Dean Moore wrote:

  
  
   
  You have got to be joking, Dean!  There is no sin of omission? 
Is following Christ only about correcting others?  How about giving a
drink to a thirsty man?  How about passing by the wounded on the road
to Damascus?  How about the guy broke down alongside the interstate? 
Can you please God by telling the thirsty guy he needs to be saved and
leave him in thirst.  Can you hand a tract to the guy broke down miles
from nowhere and go on?  I would never do that and neither would you.
  

Terry

  
   
  
   
  

cd: There is a difference in pointing out error and
stoning someone to death.We can call sin ,sin and are told to do so in
the bible. Abstaining from original sin keeps one from being a
hypocrite as you are trying to make Judy appear. Adding sin of omission
in this manner is clouding the true message of the Gospel-If we are
living in the 11 commandments given to us then there is no sin of
omission for to have love of the brethren we will be helping them-by
correction their error(s) ,and giving to them for their needs-then
there is on sin of omission.If not- feel free to point out those other
sins of omission?

  

Re: [TruthTalk] Cross

[Terry Clifton]

"Take up your star daily, and follow me".


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  
  
  Well, JW's have their own reasons, I suppose--probably different
from ours.  Most JW's despise Mormons, just as they despise all non-JW
Christians.  I don't believe we despise your religious tenets--we honor
your right to believe as you wish, we just don't agree with everything
you teach.   Sometimes the contrast seems to be a put down for you, but
it is more just an assertion of what we believe, and some take offense
at that.  The cross is a deeply embedded symbol of Jesus Christ, and I
have no real argument with that--I just like stars better, especially
since kevin and Co. have been so aggressive in trying to make the ones
on our temples appear to represent Satanism.  His efforts have only all
the more convinced me that stars are better than crosses--actually I
never really thought much or even cared much about the subject until
coming under attack.  But now, I have to take sides, and you guys are
forcing me (us) to take a position.  So, my position, is naturally, stars are better than crosses. 
:>)  However, I have to say I still have no really strong feelings
against crosses--as I said, they are clearly deeply embedded in the
Christian psyche--which includes mine as well as yours.  
   
   
   
  In a message dated 12/13/2005 7:13:18 P.M. Mountain Standard
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  

Isn’t it
interesting that the mormon viewpoint about the Cross is the same as
the JWitnesses?  They also think of it as an ugly symbol.  iz
 


 



From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
But we still
think the cross as a visible symbol of Jesus falls short of what He
stands for--the most important of which is resurrection to life in the Kingdom of God--God's life.  We do not
think that is adequately represented by a cross.  




  
   
  

Re: [TruthTalk] Cross

[Terry Clifton]

I do not know if you served your country or not ,Dave, but if you did,
one of the first items of information recorded about you was your
"religeous preference" . It is on file.  It may even be noted in some
way on your dog tags, I am not sure.  It's been a long time.  This I do
know.  You get the marker that describes who you claim to follow.  It
is not a one size fits all thing.


Dave Hansen wrote:

  
  
  it indicates that the deceased desired to be recognized as a
Christian
  
DAVEH:   Whew.that's a pretty broad brush you are painting
with, Terry.  Do you think the guys who were buried in this cemetery
  
.were asked if they wanted to be recognized as a
Christian before they died?  To me that seems a bit of a stretch.
  
  
  
  No one gets a
cross that does not want one.
  
DAVEH:   Do you really believe that, Terry.  Look at this
website
  
  
  
Over 9300 dead buried there.    Do you think they refused
to bury the guys in Normandy who did not want to be recognized as a
Christian???  I suspect that if you died on the Normandy beaches,
and were subsequently buried there.you got a cross whether you were
Christian or atheist.   Do you disagree?   (BTWYou will notice a
single Star of David in the middle forefront of the picture.)
  
Terry Clifton wrote:
  


In a national cemetery, Dave, you will see the cross over those who
claimed to be Christians and a star of David over those who were
Jewish.  As I pointed out before, many people claim to be Christians
who are not.  They are wannabees who have the desire but not the
faith.  The cross does not guarantee that the person was born again, but
it indicates that the deceased desired to be recognized as a
Christian, and the government honored their desire.  No one
gets a
cross that does not want one.  I do not know what they put over a
Mormon's grave.  Perhaps you could enlighten us.



Dave Hansen wrote:

  
  DH, your assessment of the world's point of view on this is
neither
accurate
  
DAVEH:  I assume you saw the picture of the cemetery with all the
crosses on it, John?  (If not, I've posted it below.)   Do you think
those crosses indicate that those buried below them are Christians?
  
    Perhaps I am wrong, but as I see it most Christians are myopic in
their religious perspective.  I think much of this is based on their
Biblical steadfastness in believing in the only true living God in such
a narrow sense that all others are of a minority status and their
perspective is not really relevant.  Therefore, it is easy for
Christians who are surrounded by other similar thinking Christians to
perceive the world revolves around their Christian theology. 
So, when most Christians see a cross, their immediate perception is one
of Jesus due to their lives being immersed in Christian culture, and
hence I believe they tend to impose their presupposed believes upon
others of whom they do not consider their cultural, historical or
religious background.  (I have noticed a similar effect with the way
many Christians impose their religious perceptions on what they think
LDS folks believeand often times simply get it wrong due to their
biases.)
  
 Consider that only about a third (2 billion) of the world is
Christian, and two-thirds (4 billion) are non-Christian..
  


  
  
  -- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

Re: [TruthTalk] Beams and Motes

[Terry Clifton]

Dean Moore wrote:

  
  
  
  
   
   
  
   
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
Terry Clifton 
To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent:
12/13/2005 9:22:58 PM 
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Beams and Motes


I do not agree, Iz.  In fact, I would say not
very perceptive at all.  There are sins of commission and there are
sins of omission, and it is not too hard to find one or the other in
any post on TT.     I stand by my statement that it is hard for us to
see ourselves as others see us, and if that statement is true, it is
also hard for us to see ourselves as the Lord sees us.  I would suggest
as an eye opener, that anyone on here who thinks that they are squeaky
clean in the eyes of the Lord do the following:  Go back over your last
twenty posts.  Examine them closely.  See if there is any meekness, any
humility in any of them.  Then look again.  See if you can see any love
for others in your words.  Finally, look again, this time to see how
well you have managed to edify the Saints that you have been talking
with, or down  to.  If seventy percent is a passing grade, you should
see these things in at least fourteen of your posts.

I am a mis
erable failure.  How much better are you and Judy doing?
Terry
 
cd: How does this passage fit into to
your above statement? Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the
deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. He that hath a ear let
him hear the Spirit said unto the Churches;... Kinda gets confusion if
one adds this to a lovey dovey religion huh? Nicolaitanes were make
believe Christians-as are Mormons.

  



  

I think it fits very well, Dean.  I hate the deeds
of the Mormons, but I do not hate them.  I pray, though not often
enough, for Dave to see the truth.  I would love to be certain that he
was my brother.  Right now I am fairly certain he will spend eternity
in Hell, and I don't even want that for Ted Kennedy, much less anyone I
know.  I think the confusion comes when we sneer and mock those with
whom we disagree .  Jesus did not agree with those who would praise Him
one day and call for His crucifixtion shortly thereafter. Yet He did
not stop loving them.  He told us how He would rather take them under
His wing and protect them than condemn them to Hell.  If you call that
lovey dovey religeon, count me as lovey dovey.By the way, I have seen
some love for others in your posts.  I think I will probably see more
of it as you grow in Christ.  Right now, the fervor to love ratio justs
seems a little out of whack.  Maybe we can both try harder.

  

Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Cross

[Terry Clifton]

Well stated, Dean.  I liked this part best.
Terry


Dean Moore wrote:

  
  
  
   cd: Case and point without the cross
there could be no savior-hence no salvation and as keeping the law was
a failure all were headed to hell-no way to pay for redemption. Yes,
our sins added to his suffering-so let us not sin any more as to
crucify Christ anew. But you must remember that God gave us the gift of
Christ-suffering and all that goes with him is the gift of God-Would
you tell God I am sad that you gave me such a great gift? Or should one
have Joy that God the Father came down to earth and walked as a man to
teach us truth and to die on the cross for our salvation-Who now stand
in heaven with Great honor-Sad? I say rejoice and praise his name-even
the angels agreed as they said "We bring you tidings of Great joy"
  

Re: [TruthTalk] Cross

[Terry Clifton]

Could it be that these verses have more than one thing that we can
learn from them?  I see two things here (The accusers were hypocrites,
and we all sin without always really seeing sin in our words and
actions) .  I would not be surprised to see more with careful study. 
That is one of the great things about reading and re-reading the Word.



Taylor wrote:

  
  
   
  
-Original Message-
From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org

Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org

Date: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Cross


Have you read the law Bill?  Yes
Why didn't these do gooders bring them
both to Jesus since they were both involved in the same
act and they were caught at the same
time?   I don't know, Judy; I could
speculate if you like. The point of the story is to
illustrate their blatant hypocrisy rather
than their own personal list of failures.

 
By the way, Judy, have you
noticed that you are sending two of each message to TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
and then two more copies of the same via Cc? This may be why John is
seeing doubles.
 
Bill
 
On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:00:15 -0700 "Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

  
  . . . but noone said a word about the
man and the Law said they were both to be stoned.
  
   
  It is not I who speculates,
Judy.
   
  Bill
  
From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

No that's not it  at all Bill
Would you like to add your
speculation about the man now to the clear Words of scripture?
 
On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 15:44:15 -0700 "Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

  . . . but noone said a word about
the man and the Law said they were both to be stoned.
   
  So Jesus let her off on a
legal technicality. Is that it? 
   
  What makes you so sure
they had not already stoned the man?   Bill
  
From: Judy Taylor
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


Who is trying to kill you,
Blaine, or anyone else JD. Don't make this into something it's not. 
The men Jesus was
speaking to were going to stone
the adultress to death but noone said a word about the man and the Law
said they
were both to be stoned.  As for
TT.  Mormon handshakes and sacred signs are occult and Mormonism itself
is
considered to be a cult by
Mainstream Christianity.  So what is your problem?  Does speaking the
truth to you
make the messenger your enemy?
 
On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 22:00:22 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  I didn't take it as a personal insult.  I knew you
didn't have that thought.  No apology needed, but yours is appreciated,
nonetheless.  Fair is fair,  Blaine, but I think we both know the rest
of the story.   You are right -- on TT it is apparently OK to do or say
whatever as long as one thinks the opponent is  the enemy.   
   
  When Christ said  "He who is without sin cast the
.,"  it is clear the He believed  that all possess sin at any given
moment  on some level  ...but the sinless   
     perfection crowd arrogantly disagrees  (when it
is so obvious otherwise.)
   
  jd
   
  From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 



 
Hmmm, JD is right, denigrating the symbols of
another's religious beliefs was wrong.  I apologize--apparently I
offended JD, although I did so unthinkingly and without intention.  It
just came off the top of my head.  Sometimes we get too caught up in
proving our opinions and beliefs are more valid than every one else's,
and I think I may have done just that.  
Now, if I may, I would like to ask for an apology
from anyone who supported waving Mormon underclothing in public by the
street preachers at general conference in Salt Lake City.    And, the same for those who more
recently have denigrated Mormon handshakes, and other sacred symbols on
TT.  And the same for
those who have insisted on spelling "Mormon" with a lower-case
letter. :>)
 What is fair is fair, huh?  
Blainerb
 
In a message dated 12/13/2005 8:37:10 A.M.
Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Yes  !   and , by the way,   DH, your assessment
of the world's point of view on this is neither accurate or relevant.  
  
   
  and this statement borders on insulting:    
  One of the weirdest songs I ever heard was The
Old Rugged Cross.  It seemed  to glorify the cross in a negative
way.  I doubt the Lord even to this da

Re: [TruthTalk] Cross

[Terry Clifton]

  
  The unity that is shared by these
individuals is found in their high regard for the Word and their
commitment to a living Christ.  those two considerations are bigger
than all their differing theologies.
  

Very well said, John.
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Cross

[Terry Clifton]

In a national cemetery, Dave, you will see the cross over those who
claimed to be Christians and a star of David over those who were
Jewish.  As I pointed out before, many people claim to be Christians
who are not.  They are wannabees who have the desire but not the
faith.  The cross does not guarantee that the person was born again,
but it indicates that the deceased desired to be recognized as a
Christian, and the government honored their desire.  No one gets a
cross that does not want one.  I do not know what they put over a
Mormon's grave.  Perhaps you could enlighten us.



Dave Hansen wrote:

  
  DH, your assessment of the world's point of view on this is
neither
accurate
  
DAVEH:  I assume you saw the picture of the cemetery with all the
crosses on it, John?  (If not, I've posted it below.)   Do you think
those crosses indicate that those buried below them are Christians?
  
    Perhaps I am wrong, but as I see it most Christians are myopic in
their religious perspective.  I think much of this is based on their
Biblical steadfastness in believing in the only true living God in such
a narrow sense that all others are of a minority status and their
perspective is not really relevant.  Therefore, it is easy for
Christians who are surrounded by other similar thinking Christians to
perceive the world revolves around their Christian theology. 
So, when most Christians see a cross, their immediate perception is one
of Jesus due to their lives being immersed in Christian culture, and
hence I believe they tend to impose their presupposed believes upon
others of whom they do not consider their cultural, historical or
religious background.  (I have noticed a similar effect with the way
many Christians impose their religious perceptions on what they think
LDS folks believeand often times simply get it wrong due to their
biases.)
  
 Consider that only about a third (2 billion) of the world is
Christian, and two-thirds (4 billion) are non-Christian..
  
  

Re: [TruthTalk] Beams and Motes

[Terry Clifton]

I see.  Is this then the sin of the parents, or the world, or the
parson with low esteem?
How would this condition add to or subtract from one's ability to do
what Jesus suggests in the sermon on the mount?  I am too lazy to look
it up but it seems to me that He came to town meek and lowly, riding on
a colt.  Possibly as an example to us?
To be quite honest, I do not see low esteem as a problem on TT.  Do you?
Terry


 Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  
  
  Self rejection happens when children are
either rejected by parents or have overly critical parents. When
  one is raised in an unloving atmosphere
they tend to accept the lie that this is because they are unlovable
making
  it difficult to understand or receive the
love of God.  
   
  The world adds to the problem with
unrealistic standards especially in the
area of perfection and body image - 
  thinness for women and Gk perfection for
men and too many times this becomes a graven image or idol and 
  people reject themselves when they don't
measure up rather than giving thanks for being
fearfully and wonderfully 
  made.
   
   
  On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:14:35 -0600 Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
  
Could you explain what you mean by self rejection?

Judy Taylor wrote: 

  
  Hi Terry,
  I don't know that any of us would say
that they are "self satisfied" in fact not even Paul himself said that.
  What he did say is that he didn't know
of any sin but that did not mean he was justified completely before
  the Lord.  I would say the same.  At
this point in my walk I see self rejection just as sinful as the
ignorance
  that comes with pride... either way it
is all self, self, self, self.  judyt
   


 
  
  

judyt    
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] Beams and Motes

[Terry Clifton]

We have already established that I have failed the test Kev.  Now we is
talkin' 'bout you.

Kevin Deegan wrote:

  Doing your part to Edify?
  "Let me know so that I can feel edified"
"Congratulations on doing so well."
  
  Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Not
a tendancy, Kev.  Just commenting on the obvious.  How did you score? 
Let me know so that I can feel edified.


Kevin Deegan wrote:

  I guess that when one is doing "miserably"
there is always a tendancy to that natural blindness that sees everyone
else must be also.
  
  Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
  I
am not judging you Judy.  I asked everyone here to judge themselves. 
Evidently you have given this much consideration and are well satisfied
with yourself.  That surprises me, but then  you know yourself better
than I do.  Congratulations on doing so well.
Terry



  
  

  

Re: [TruthTalk] Beams and Motes

[Terry Clifton]

Could you explain what you mean by self rejection?

Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  
  
  Hi Terry,
  I don't know that any of us would say that
they are "self satisfied" in fact not even Paul himself said that.
  What he did say is that he didn't know of
any sin but that did not mean he was justified completely before
  the Lord.  I would say the same.  At this
point in my walk I see self rejection just as sinful as the ignorance
  that comes with pride... either way it is
all self, self, self, self.  judyt
   

Re: [TruthTalk] Beams and Motes

[Terry Clifton]

Not a tendancy, Kev.  Just commenting on the obvious.  How did you
score?  Let me know so that I can feel edified.


Kevin Deegan wrote:

  I guess that when one is doing "miserably" there
is always a tendancy to that natural blindness that sees everyone else
must be also.
  
  Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  I
am not judging you Judy.  I asked everyone here to judge themselves. 
Evidently you have given this much consideration and are well satisfied
with yourself.  That surprises me, but then  you know yourself better
than I do.  Congratulations on doing so well.
Terry



Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  According to your scale of measure
Terry - and assuming you know everything there is to know about the one
you are judging. However, only God actually sees and knows the heart
and you are judging by how it appears outwardly ... Jesus himself would
not have appeared too humble on the day He weilded those cords in the
temple either according to the outward look of humility and neither
would Paul have appeared too humble in some of the places where he
barged in like a street preacher and began speaking against what the
ppl believed in (because they had been raised in it).  I think all of
us are aware of our own human shortcomings but facts are - it is God
who is working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure and I am
not about to call what He has done in my life a "miserable failure" 
You should have seen/known me before.  Tell
me - what does "boldness to speak the truth" look like? and remember
that love covers a multitude of sin ... If
you think we are missing it don't stone us, pray for us.  There is
responsibility on both sides and only one Judge.  It's impossible to
function while all the time examining one's own navel for fear of
offending.    judyt
       
      On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 20:22:20 -0600 Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
  
I do not agree, Iz.  In fact, I would say not very
perceptive at all.  There are sins of commission and there are sins of
omission, and it is not too hard to find one or the other in any post
on TT.     I stand by my statement that it is hard for us to see
ourselves as others see us, and if that statement is true, it is also
hard for us to see ourselves as the Lord sees us.  I would suggest as
an eye opener, that anyone on here who thinks that they are squeaky
clean in the eyes of the Lord do the following:  Go back over your last
twenty posts.  Examine them closely.  See if there is any meekness, any
humility in any of them.  Then look again.  See if you can see any love
for others in your words.  Finally, look again, this time to see how
well you have managed to edify the Saints that you have been talking
with, or down  to.  If seventy percent is a passing grade, you should
see these things in at least fourteen of your posts.

I am a miserable failure.  How much better are you and Judy doing?
Terry


ShieldsFamily wrote: 

  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Very
perceptive, jt.   iz
  
  
  
   
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  On Behalf Of Judy
Taylor
  Sent: Tuesday,
December 13, 2005 3:18 PM
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Subject:
[Norton AntiSpam] Re: [TruthTalk] Beams and Motes
  
  
  
  Because others may
have a critical and jaundiced eye does not necessarily mean there is
sin in the object
  
  
  or focus of such
criticism - at times it means the person looking needs to work on their
own beam.
  
  
  
  
  
  On Tue,
13 Dec 2005 09:34:43 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
  
  

EXATAMUNDO!
I have long been mystified by such, Terry. 
    

  
  From: Terry Clifton 
  
  
  
 
  
  I
suspect that you are correct.  Sometimes it is hard to see ourselves as
others see us.
  
Lance Muir wrote: 
  
  How, you
ask, did I figure that out, Terry? The same way you did. ARE YOU,
TERRY, UNAWARE, THAT SOME EXCLUDE THEMSELVES FROM THIS.?
      
  

From: Terry Clifton 




Lance
Muir wrote: 

Speaking
ONLY of expressions on TT, may I ask ALL participants who have never
sinned ON TT to identify themselves. IMO, NOT ONE HAS NOT SINNED ON TT
ALONE NEVER MIND THEIR LIVES APART FROM TT.

DUH!
How did you figure that out

Re: [TruthTalk] Beams and Motes

[Terry Clifton]

I am not judging you Judy.  I asked everyone here to judge themselves. 
Evidently you have given this much consideration and are well satisfied
with yourself.  That surprises me, but then  you know yourself better
than I do.  Congratulations on doing so well.
Terry



Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  
  
  According to your scale of measure Terry -
and assuming you know everything there is to know about the one you are
judging. However, only God actually sees and knows the heart and you
are judging by how it appears outwardly ... Jesus himself would not
have appeared too humble on the day He weilded those cords in the
temple either according to the outward look of humility and neither
would Paul have appeared too humble in some of the places where he
barged in like a street preacher and began speaking against what the
ppl believed in (because they had been raised in it).  I think all of
us are aware of our own human shortcomings but facts are - it is God
who is working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure and I am
not about to call what He has done in my life a "miserable failure" 
You should have seen/known me before.  Tell
me - what does "boldness to speak the truth" look like? and remember
that love covers a multitude of sin ... If
you think we are missing it don't stone us, pray for us.  There is
responsibility on both sides and only one Judge.  It's impossible to
function while all the time examining one's own navel for fear of
offending.    judyt
   
  On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 20:22:20 -0600 Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
  
I do not agree, Iz.  In fact, I would say not very perceptive
at all.  There are sins of commission and there are sins of omission,
and it is not too hard to find one or the other in any post on TT.    
I stand by my statement that it is hard for us to see ourselves as
others see us, and if that statement is true, it is also hard for us to
see ourselves as the Lord sees us.  I would suggest as an eye opener,
that anyone on here who thinks that they are squeaky clean in the eyes
of the Lord do the following:  Go back over your last twenty posts. 
Examine them closely.  See if there is any meekness, any humility in
any of them.  Then look again.  See if you can see any love for others
in your words.  Finally, look again, this time to see how well you have
managed to edify the Saints that you have been talking with, or down 
to.  If seventy percent is a passing grade, you should see these things
in at least fourteen of your posts.

I am a miserable failure.  How much better are you and Judy doing?
Terry


ShieldsFamily wrote: 

  

  
  
  Very
perceptive, jt.   iz
  
  
  
   
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  On Behalf Of Judy
Taylor
  Sent: Tuesday,
December 13, 2005 3:18 PM
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Subject: [Norton
AntiSpam] Re: [TruthTalk] Beams and Motes
  
  
  
  Because
others may have a critical and jaundiced eye does not necessarily mean
there is sin in the object
  
  
  or
focus of such criticism - at times it means the person looking needs to
work on their own beam.
  
  
  
  
  
  On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:34:43
-0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
  
  

EXATAMUNDO! I have long
been mystified by such, Terry. 
    

  
  From: Terry Clifton 
  
  
  
 
  
  I
suspect that you are correct.  Sometimes it is hard to see ourselves as
others see us.
  
Lance Muir wrote: 
  
  How, you ask, did I
figure that out, Terry? The same way you did. ARE YOU, TERRY, UNAWARE,
THAT SOME EXCLUDE THEMSELVES FROM THIS.?
      
  

From: Terry Clifton 




Lance
Muir wrote: 

Speaking
ONLY of expressions on TT, may I ask ALL participants who have never
sinned ON TT to identify themselves. IMO, NOT ONE HAS NOT SINNED ON TT
ALONE NEVER MIND THEIR LIVES APART FROM TT.

DUH!
How did you figure that out?  I can spot the sins in you other guys every time you
contribute.
Terry
  
  




  
  

judyt    
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)
  


 
  
  

judyt    
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] Congressional Medal of Honor--inverted pentagram

[Terry Clifton]

BIG amen.

Charles Perry Locke wrote:



Blaine, you seem to be missing a fine point here. Christians do not 
use crosses as a symbol of Jesus, like mormons do with stars and 
planets. The cross, to the Christian, is a reminder of the tremendous 
price that Jesus paid for our sins. BIG difference.


Perry



--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
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Re: [TruthTalk] Beams and Motes

[Terry Clifton]

I do not agree, Iz.  In fact, I would say not very perceptive at all. 
There are sins of commission and there are sins of omission, and it is
not too hard to find one or the other in any post on TT.     I stand by
my statement that it is hard for us to see ourselves as others see us,
and if that statement is true, it is also hard for us to see ourselves
as the Lord sees us.  I would suggest as an eye opener, that anyone on
here who thinks that they are squeaky clean in the eyes of the Lord do
the following:  Go back over your last twenty posts.  Examine them
closely.  See if there is any meekness, any humility in any of them. 
Then look again.  See if you can see any love for others in your
words.  Finally, look again, this time to see how well you have managed
to edify the Saints that you have been talking with, or down  to.  If
seventy percent is a passing grade, you should see these things in at
least fourteen of your posts.

I am a miserable failure.  How much better are you and Judy doing?
Terry


ShieldsFamily wrote:

  
  


  
  
  
  Very
perceptive, jt.   iz
   
  
  
  
  From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Judy Taylor
  Sent: Tuesday,
December 13, 2005
3:18 PM
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Subject: [Norton
AntiSpam] Re:
[TruthTalk] Beams and Motes
  
   
  
  Because
others may have a critical and
jaundiced eye does not necessarily mean there is sin in the object
  
  
  or
focus of such criticism - at times it
means the person looking needs to work on their own beam.
  
  
   
  
  
  On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:34:43
-0500 "Lance
Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
  
  

EXATAMUNDO! I have long
been mystified by such,
Terry. 


      
  From: Terry
Clifton 
  
  
  
 
  
  I suspect that you are
correct.  Sometimes it is
hard to see ourselves as others see us.
  
Lance Muir wrote: 
  
  How, you ask, did I
figure that out, Terry? The same
way you did. ARE YOU, TERRY, UNAWARE, THAT SOME EXCLUDE THEMSELVES FROM
THIS.?
  
  
    
    From: Terry
Clifton 


 

Lance Muir wrote: 

Speaking ONLY of
expressions on TT, may I ask ALL
participants who have never sinned ON TT to identify themselves. IMO,
NOT ONE
HAS NOT SINNED ON TT ALONE NEVER MIND THEIR LIVES APART FROM TT.

DUH! How did you
figure that out? 
I can spot the sins in you other
guys every time you contribute.
Terry
  
   


 

  
  

judyt   
  
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
 
is a liar (1 John 2:4)
  

Re: [TruthTalk]

[Terry Clifton]

I still do not see where John was anti anyone.  If he is, I may
unknowingly be guilty of the same, so please tell us both where we need
to modify our thinking.
Thanks in advance.
Terry

ShieldsFamily wrote:

  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  Your
personal encounters with one Jew or
another is irrelevant.  History should not be distorted by
anit-semites.  iz
   
  
  
  
  From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Terry Clifton
  Sent: Tuesday,
December 13, 2005
9:44 AM
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk]
  
   
  It might benefit us all, Iz,
if you would point out
the error in John's thinking.  Not all of us have the benefit of a
close
relationship with a Jewish believer.  None of the jewish guys I ever
knew
or worked with were anything that would please the Lord.
Terry
  
ShieldsFamily wrote: 
  Jd,
your lack of understanding of the Jews is appalling, as demonstrated by
every
post you write about them.  Why not try learning about them instead of
speculating out of thin air? I’m talking HUGE lack of
understanding—HUGE! iz
   
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Monday, December
12, 2005
9:30 PM
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk]
  
   
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
  Probably no interest on this
one, but I'll throw it
out there anyway.
  
  
   
  
  
  Isreal claims ancestry through
Abraham to
God.   But there was no Israel
from the beginning of earth's history to around 1600 BC or so.  
  
  
  
   
  
  
  The Egyptians had their own
culture, religion and
mythology.   The Jews really had no national identity at
all.    If if if the Egyptians had incorporated these people
into their society in the early years, there would have been no Israel
of God  
---  or, at the very least,  Egyptian mythology and culture would
have survived in Israel.  
But, the very fact of continued bondage  IMO created an  "us
versus them"  psychology that prevented Israel from being
lost in
the sea of Egyptian
nuance.   
  
  
   
  
  
  Their escape from Egypt
was that of a people needing Divine  help at the most basic 
levels  of national existence. .   They had no law or national
structure.   Their God of the past 400 years  (of bondage) was a
God of tradition and little more.   We are talking about 2 to 3
million people (so some assert) leaving Egypt with
absolutely no
where to go,  no way to survive militarily ,  a culture of bondage
and defeat as the National Story,   And when they got to the Red Sea, 
reality hit them between the
eyes.   This defeatist attitude becomes a part of their tradition and
, perhaps,  is an aspect of their repeated rebellion.   It is
almost as if they are the Divine Stepchild and they really don't  care
for this  identiy.   Does this have anything to do
with fact that do not approach God as "Father God"  ??  
  
  
   
  
  
  And what is Moses doing with
the writing of Genesis if
not collecting the oral traditions in an effort at presenting Iseal 
(this
brandnew nation) with a history that it can claim as its own???  
Perhaps he begins with the Beginning  because this was the perfect
place
to start.   .. contrasting the
Egyptian mythologies of the beginnings of man with an account of a
sovereign
God  and His creation.   These Jews,  freah out of Egypt, 
most definitely knew of the Egyptian stories.   The contrast would
have been startling.   
  
  
   
  
  
  Whatever.
  
  
   
  
  
  jd
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
     
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
   
  

[TruthTalk] [Fwd: The Perfect Arm]

[Terry Clifton]

The Perfect Arm

The coach had put together the perfect team for the Detroit Lions.  The only
thing missing was a good quarterback.  He had scouted all the colleges and
even the Canadian and European Leagues, but he couldn't find a ringer who
could ensure a Super Bowl victory.

Then one night, while watching CNN, he saw a war-zone scene in Afghanistan.
In one corner of the background, he spotted a young Afghan Muslim soldier
with a truly incredible arm.  He threw a hand-grenade straight into a window
from 80 yards away.   Then he threw another from 50 yards down a chimney,
and then hit a passing car going 80 miles per hour.
"I've got to get this guy!" coach said to himself. "He has the perfect arm!"
So, he brings the young Afghan to the States and teaches him the great game
of football. And sure enough the Lions go on to win the Super Bowl.
The young Afghan is hailed as a hero of football, and when the coach asks
him what he wants to do, all he says is just to call his mother.
"Mom," he says into the phone, "I just won the Super Bowl!"  "I don't want
to talk to you," the old Muslim woman says. "You deserted us.  You are not
my son!"
"Mother, I don't think you understand," pleads the son, "I've just won the
greatest sporting event in the world!"
"No!  Let me tell you," his mother retorts.  "At this very moment there are
gunshots all around us.  The neighborhood is a pile of rubble.  Your two
brothers were beaten within an inch of their lives last week, and I have to
keep your sister in the house so she doesn't get raped!"
The old lady pauses then tearfully says, "I will never forgive you for
making us move to Detroit!"





--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
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Re: [TruthTalk]

[Terry Clifton]

It might benefit us all, Iz, if you would point out the error in John's
thinking.  Not all of us have the benefit of a close relationship with
a Jewish believer.  None of the jewish guys I ever knew or worked with
were anything that would please the Lord.
Terry

ShieldsFamily wrote:

  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  Jd, your
lack of understanding of the Jews
is appalling, as demonstrated by every post you write about them.  Why
not try
learning about them instead of speculating out of thin air? I’m talking
HUGE lack of understanding—HUGE! iz
   
  
  
  
  From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Monday, December
12, 2005
9:30 PM
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk]
  
   
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
  Probably no interest on this one, but I'll
throw it out there anyway.
  
  
   
  
  
  Isreal claims ancestry through Abraham to
God.   But
there was no Israel
from the beginning of earth's history to around 1600 BC or so.  
  
  
  
   
  
  
  The Egyptians had their own culture, religion
and
mythology.   The Jews really had no national identity at
all.    If if if the Egyptians had incorporated these people
into their society in the early years, there would have been no Israel of God   ---  or, at the
very least,  Egyptian mythology and culture would have survived in Israel.  
But, the very fact of continued bondage  IMO created an  "us
versus them"  psychology that prevented Israel
from being lost in the sea
of Egyptian
nuance.   
  
  
   
  
  
  Their escape from Egypt
was that of a people needing Divine  help at the most basic 
levels  of national existence. .   They had no law or national
structure.   Their God of the past 400 years  (of bondage) was a
God of tradition and little more.   We are talking about 2 to 3
million people (so some assert) leaving Egypt
with absolutely no where to go,  no way to survive militarily ,  a
culture of bondage and defeat as the National Story,   And when they
got to the Red Sea,  reality hit them
between the eyes.   This defeatist attitude becomes a part of their
tradition and , perhaps,  is an aspect of their repeated
rebellion.   It is almost as if they are the Divine Stepchild and
they really don't  care for this  identiy.  
Does this have anything to do with fact that do not approach God as
"Father God"  ??  
  
  
   
  
  
  And what is Moses doing with the writing of
Genesis if not collecting
the oral traditions in an effort at presenting Iseal  (this brandnew
nation) with a history that it can claim as its own???   Perhaps he
begins with the Beginning  because this was the perfect place to
start.   .. contrasting the Egyptian
mythologies of the beginnings of man with an account of a sovereign
God 
and His creation.   These Jews,  freah out of Egypt, 
most definitely knew of the Egyptian stories.   The contrast would
have been startling.   
  
  
   
  
  
  Whatever.
  
  
   
  
  
  jd
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
     
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  

Re: [TruthTalk] TRUE CHRISTIANS SAY NO TO SATAN BEFORE IT MANIFESTS INTO SIN - says Dean Moore

[Terry Clifton]

I suspect that you are correct.  Sometimes it is hard to see ourselves
as others see us.

Lance Muir wrote:

  
  
  
  How, you ask, did I figure that out,
Terry? The same way you did. ARE YOU, TERRY, UNAWARE, THAT SOME EXCLUDE
THEMSELVES FROM THIS.?
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
Terry Clifton 
To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org

Sent:
December 13, 2005 09:17
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] TRUE CHRISTIANS SAY NO TO SATAN BEFORE IT MANIFESTS
INTO SIN - says Dean Moore


Lance Muir wrote:

  
  
  Speaking ONLY of expressions on
TT, may I ask ALL participants who have never sinned ON TT to identify
themselves. IMO, NOT ONE HAS NOT SINNED ON TT ALONE NEVER MIND THEIR
LIVES APART FROM TT.

DUH! How did
you figure that out?  I can spot the sins in you other guys
every time you contribute.
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] TRUE CHRISTIANS SAY NO TO SATAN BEFORE IT MANIFESTS INTO SIN - says Dean Moore

[Terry Clifton]

Lance Muir wrote:

  
  
  
  Speaking ONLY of expressions on TT,
may I ask ALL participants who have never sinned ON TT to identify
themselves. IMO, NOT ONE HAS NOT SINNED ON TT ALONE NEVER MIND THEIR
LIVES APART FROM TT.

DUH! How did you
figure that out?  I can spot the sins in you other guys every
time you contribute.
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Restoration - BAAL Worship/ Kevin projecting evil

[Terry Clifton]

There have been freemasons since the tower of Babel, where it all
started.

Kevin Deegan wrote:

  There were freemasons at the founding of our goverment.
   
  http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_tapestra11.htm
  
  White house at bottom point
  
  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  



"Universally
accepted symbol for Satan?"
 
What about the Congressional Medal of
Honor???  Please note the pentagrams, all pointing downward
 
 


  

  
  
  
  
  THE MEDAL 
  OF HONOR
  


  
  The
highest award for valor in action against an enemy force which can be
bestowed upon an individual serving in the Armed Services of the United
States...   --> LEARN MORE
  --
  


  
  NEWS
  

  


 
 
 
In a message dated 12/12/2005 8:17:54 P.M. Mountain Standard
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Don't let your mind accept what your eyes see.
  It may look like the satanic star, it may have the same
proportions as the satanic Star. it may align with the satanic star in
every way if we overlay them,
  But it can not be a Satanic star since you say so.
  pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
  look this way & repeat after me "I know the church is
true"
  Avert your eyes look away that is not the universally
accepted symbol for Satan.
  repeat after me.
  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  



 
What about the stars on the American flag?? five points. 
I doubt they or the Mormon Temple builders even worry about what
direction the stars point


  

 

  
  
   
  Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo!
Shopping 

Re: [TruthTalk] Inverted stars on LDS Temples

[Terry Clifton]

Is this sign actually located somewhere on or in the Mormon temple?  I
would like an honest answer from someone who has been there and seen it.
Terry

Kevin Deegan wrote:

  Does the temple display Satanic stars?
  On has only to use the eyes God gave him, or he can shut his
eyes and avoid the obvious
   
  
   
   
   
   
  666
   
   
   
   
   
   

Re: [TruthTalk] Cross

[Terry Clifton]

I think that we have isolated the problem, Dave.  You seem to be
thinking like the world instead of as a follower who has taken up the
cross and died to self.
Terry

Dave Hansen wrote:

  
  Those wearing one are sending a message that
they follow Christ. 
  
DAVEH:   Unfortunately, they naively fail to understand the message
they are sending, IMHO.  As I've explained before, the world
recognizes
the cross as a symbol of death.  And for anybody familiar with the
historical meaning of what the cross did to our Savior, why they would
want to project a message of torture, suffering and deathis
simply incredible to me.
  
  

Re: [TruthTalk] Cross

[Terry Clifton]

No doubt aboudit.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  
  
  Blainerb:  Many Protestants seem to wear the cross as a way to
make a statement of their Christian beliefs, but some, I think, wear it
in much the same was as the Pharisees and Scribes wore phylacteries on
their garments, and prayed in public--to be seen of men.  
   
   
  
  

Re: [TruthTalk] Cross

[Terry Clifton]

Christ did not tell us to take up a borrowed tomb, Dave.  We are told
to take up our cross.  Those wearing one are sending a messsage that
they follow Christ.  Those with one marking their grave are saying the
same thing.  This, of course, is not always true, but that cannot be
helped.  Anything good will always be faked.
To answer your other question, I criticize almost every thing about the
Catholic religion.  They are as screwed up as the Mormons.  Don't even
try to understand.  It would be a waste of time. IMO, of course, and
that is a shame.
Terry

Dave Hansen wrote:

  
  The cross, like
the tomb, is empty.
  
DAVEH:  So why don't Christians hang a symbol of the tomb (stone)
around their neck or decorate their edifices with something less
representative of the tools of God's enemies?   As I see it, the tomb
was at least a sacred place, where Jesus' friends were relatively
comfortable.  It was also a place where they cared for Jesus' body, and
near where Mary first saw the resurrected Christ.    To me, it would be
far more significant than the instrument that brought such pain, misery
and death to our Lord.  I just don't understand why anybody would
glorify something that was glorified by the enemies of Jesus.
  
    BTW.Do you criticize the RCC practice of
idolizing/memorializing the crucifix?  I don't see much distinction
between what they do, and what most non Catholic Christians do in their
glorification of the cross.  Just because one depicts the actual usage
of the cross to bring pain and death to our Savior isn't much different
to me than a cross that remained after Jesus was killed and hauled off
to the tomb. 
  
   I think you are missing something important here
  
DAVEH:   No Terry.I don't think I'm missing anything, Terry.   Lest
you forget, Christ arose from the tombnot the cross.
  
  
  
Terry Clifton wrote:
  


 I think you are missing something important here
Dave.  The cross, like
the tomb, is empty.  Jesus won the victory (for us).  The only
people
who still have Him on the cross are Catholics.  We "Protestants"
celebrate an empty cross.  The one we deserved was occupied by another,
but, Praise God, no more.  The empty cross is a precious reminder of
how much we are loved.
Terry



Dave Hansen wrote:

  
  What does the CROSS "REPRESENT"
  
DAVEH:  I hope you don't mind me intruding on your discussion with
Blaine, Kevin.  This topic is of particular interest to me, as I've
seen quite a few crosses at the sides of highways I travel.  Quite
often, they indicate places where people have died, or in the case of
cemeteries.where they are buried... 
  
  
  
  
..In the past couple thousand years, many Christians have
idolized the cross to depict the death of Jesus.
  
  
  
...which to me seems rather bizarre to meif not macabre.  Some
Christians have taken to wearing jewelery, and displaying crosses in
their abodes and places of worship.
  
  
  
.As I see it, those crosses depict the cruel tool used
to bring not only much pain and suffering to our beloved Savior, but
also the device that was used by God's enemies to kill our Lord.  This
inhumane instrument was designed not only to kill God's children, but
at the same time to punitively torture them in a humiliating and
degrading way.  It always amazes me that some Christians would have
such an affinity to such a devilish device that brings pain, suffering
and death to the minds of many who see it, and especially to those who
were victims of it.
  
    I'm curious as to how you would feel about something similar,
Kevin.  I don't know if you have any children, but for the sake of this
discussion let's assume you do.  If your enemy were to maliciously use
a knife to torture your daughter for a couple days to the point that
the wounds killed her, would you be predisposed to wear a piece of
jewelry on a chain around your neck in the form of a knife to remind
you of what the guy did to your daughter?  And, how would you feel if
you drove by a gun & knife store, and saw a sign depicting knives
that looked similar to the one that killed your daughter..Would it
bring back fond memories?
  
    LDS folks appreciate the dying sacrifice of our Lord in our
behalf.  But we don't glorify the tool that killed him.  It sickens me
to think of man's inhumanity that would bring such pain, suffering and
death to one who did not deserve it.   Nor do we idolize the cross as
do so many others.  Rather, we prefer to remember his sacrifice and
glorify his Father---not the cross--- for the resurrection of his Son.
  
    FWIW.We have a large Christian church near us that a few years
ago put 3 large prominent crosses on their building that are lit up at
night with blue

Re: [TruthTalk] Cross

[Terry Clifton]

I think you are missing something important here Dave.  The cross, like
the tomb, is empty.  Jesus won the victory (for us).  The only people
who still have Him on the cross are Catholics.  We "Protestants"
celebrate an empty cross.  The one we deserved was occupied by another,
but, Praise God, no more.  The empty cross is a precious reminder of
how much we are loved.
Terry



Dave Hansen wrote:

  
  What does the CROSS "REPRESENT"
  
DAVEH:  I hope you don't mind me intruding on your discussion with
Blaine, Kevin.  This topic is of particular interest to me, as I've
seen quite a few crosses at the sides of highways I travel.  Quite
often, they indicate places where people have died, or in the case of
cemeteries.where they are buried... 
  
  
  
  
..In the past couple thousand years, many Christians have
idolized the cross to depict the death of Jesus.
  
  
  
...which to me seems rather bizarre to meif not macabre.  Some
Christians have taken to wearing jewelery, and displaying crosses in
their abodes and places of worship.
  
  
  
.As I see it, those crosses depict the cruel tool used
to bring not only much pain and suffering to our beloved Savior, but
also the device that was used by God's enemies to kill our Lord.  This
inhumane instrument was designed not only to kill God's children, but
at the same time to punitively torture them in a humiliating and
degrading way.  It always amazes me that some Christians would have
such an affinity to such a devilish device that brings pain, suffering
and death to the minds of many who see it, and especially to those who
were victims of it.
  
    I'm curious as to how you would feel about something similar,
Kevin.  I don't know if you have any children, but for the sake of this
discussion let's assume you do.  If your enemy were to maliciously use
a knife to torture your daughter for a couple days to the point that
the wounds killed her, would you be predisposed to wear a piece of
jewelry on a chain around your neck in the form of a knife to remind
you of what the guy did to your daughter?  And, how would you feel if
you drove by a gun & knife store, and saw a sign depicting knives
that looked similar to the one that killed your daughter..Would it
bring back fond memories?
  
    LDS folks appreciate the dying sacrifice of our Lord in our
behalf.  But we don't glorify the tool that killed him.  It sickens me
to think of man's inhumanity that would bring such pain, suffering and
death to one who did not deserve it.   Nor do we idolize the cross as
do so many others.  Rather, we prefer to remember his sacrifice and
glorify his Father---not the cross--- for the resurrection of his Son.
  
    FWIW.We have a large Christian church near us that a few years
ago put 3 large prominent crosses on their building that are lit up at
night with blue lights that are very noticeable to the cars passing by
on the freeway
  
  http://www.rollinghills.org/about_us/campus/index.cfm
  
.This picture really doesn't show them very well compared to
the cars on the freeway, as it is taken from the wrong angle and at
quite a distance.  I have sometimes wondered if Jesus were to travel
that road, what would he think if he were to pass such an edifice that
memorializes his death in such a manner.  I wouldn't be surprised if he
would wince at such a sight.   And..It bothers me to think that
some would pain him in such a callous way.
  
  
Kevin Deegan wrote:
  
Exactly they bought into the counterfeit.
How art thou fallen from
heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground,
which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I
will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars
of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the
sides of the north:...
Yet thou shalt be brought down
to
hell, to the sides of the pit.
 
North Star,
which represents Jesus Christ. 
 

What does the CROSS "REPRESENT" Blaine?
 

  
  
  -- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

truthtalk@mail.innglory.org

[Terry Clifton]

Sounds like a tough neighborhood.  Joe must have been as full of grit
as bad bad Leroy Brown.



Kevin Deegan wrote:
The plates were secreted about three miles from home. . .
Joseph, on coming to them, took them from their secret place, and,
wrapping them in his linen frock, placed them under his arm and started
for home.
  After proceeding a short distance, he
thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the
woods. Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a
large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from
behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around
and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed.
About half a mile further he was attacked again in
the same manner as before; he knocked this man down in like manner as
the former, and ran on again; and before he reached home he was assaulted
the third time. In striking the last one he dislocated his
thumb, which, however, he did not notice until he came within sight of
the house, when he threw himself down in the corner of the fence in
order to recover his breath. As soon as he was able, he arose and came
to the house. He was still altogether speechless from fright and the
fatigue of running (Lucy's
Book, pp. 385-386, Biographical
Sketches, by Lucy Smith, pp. 104-105).
   
  Amazing strength
  
  
  Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  gold plates

DAVEH:   I might add that it is my understanding that they had the appearance
of gold.  Whether or not the content was actually 100% gold is
something that is debatable.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  
   
  The Book of Mormon was translated to English from a set of gold
plates by Joseph  Smith Jr.  The plates were an abridgement of more
extensive records by a Nephite named  Mormon,  and his son, Moroni.  
   
   
  In a message dated 12/10/2005 9:19:28 P.M. Mountain Standard
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
who are
its authors?
 
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 22:49:39 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

  
  ..  The Book of Mormon is the word of God
  


  
   
  

--   ~~~  Dave Hansen  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.langlitz.com  ~~~  If you wish to receive  things I find interesting,  I maintain six email lists...  JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,  STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
  
  
  
   
  Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo!
Shopping 

Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Military Surplus and Government Surplus Auctions at Government Liquidation]

[Terry Clifton]

Do they come in camo?  I could get by without the x-ray.

Dave Hansen wrote:

  
DAVEH:   OK Terry...I'll just scratch the leather jacket off the
list I was making for you.
  
Terry Clifton wrote:
  



If anyone is trying to think of what to get me for a Christmas/Qwanza/
winter break gift, I would like the railroad car, the crane, and the
x-ray machine.
Terry




 http://www.govliquidation.com/index.html
  
  
  -- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

Re: [TruthTalk] Happy holidays, seasons greetings, X-mas

[Terry Clifton]

Uh, I think that's UF.  FSU is in Tallahassee.

ShieldsFamily wrote:

  
  

  

  
  
  
  Those are
some tough tongues you’re
taking at FSU, Christine! 
   
  
  
  
  From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Christine Miller
  Sent: Sunday, December
11, 2005
12:45 PM
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk] Happy
holidays, seasons greetings, X-mas
  
   
  
  Do you speak/believe in the gift of tongues,
Lance?
  
I've taken Calculus and Financial Accounting. Next up is Islam. 
  
  Lance Muir
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  
  I do, Christine.
  
  
   
  
  
  Which courses are you
being 'examined' on?
  
  
   
  
  
  PS:I've met three
'prophets' in the last couple of years.
Two of them are socially dysfunctional but, highly gifted. The other
was in the
store a week or two back and a group of us chatted for a couple of
hours. 
  
  

- Original Message
- 


From: Christine
Miller 


To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org



Sent: December 10, 2005
20:23


Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Happy holidays, seasons greetings, X-mas


 


Lance, I didn't know you believed in the
gifts of the Spirit.

(Whew. Two final exams down, one to go.)

Lance
Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote: 

I
actually do, Judy. A prophet visited our store one week
ago. God spoke through him and, said exactly that. You may be surprised
to know
just how dependent your country is on Canada. It is NOT JUST the
other
way 'round. Most yanks are sufficiently insular to know nothing of the
rest of
the world (including their neighbour)


 


- Original Message - 


  
  From: Judy
Taylor
  
  
  
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  
  
  
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  
  
  
  Sent: December 10, 2005
14:41
  
  
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Happy holidays, seasons greetings, X-mas
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
  If
you really believe what
you write here Lance then you need to be weeping between the porch and
the
  
  
  altar
for us down here. Do you really
think that if the US
goes
down - Canada
will be left standing??
  
  
  
  
  
  


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
No you wouldn't, Judy.
You are in deep doodoo without anyone, including
Canadians, keeping 'tabs', as you put it.




From: Judy
Taylor




  
  Sure glad
you are keeping up
with our economy Lance. Don't know what we 
  
  
  
  would do if we didn't
have the Canadians
keeping tabs on us.  We'd really
  
  
  
  
  be in trouble then ...
  
  
  
  
  On Sat, 10 Dec 2005
08:40:32 -0500 "Lance
Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Upset? No!  Why? USA
is a secular republic NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION! 
> More 
> pagans means more people with whom to share/live the gospel.
> 
> What then ought one to be taking note of? How 'bout China/India. 
> They, 
> Terry, are the ones suppling the mdse for the aforementioned
stores. 
> No more 
> 'made in the USA!
(3 million manufacturing jobs lost since 2003 and 
> many, 
> many more to come).
> 
>  - Original Message - 
> From: "Terry Clifton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>
> Sent: December 10, 2005 08:20
> Subject: [TruthTalk] Happy holidays, seasons greetings, X-mas
> 
> 
> >
> > We have been watching the news lately, plus getting some
stuff by 
> e-mail, 
> > and it seems that the world we once knew is no longer to be
found. 
> It is 
> > bad enough when all the big merchants, such as Wal Mart,
Sears, 
> Target and 
> > home depot stop advertising Christmas sales and start
advertising 
> "Holiday
  
> > sales".  When you walk in the stores you are greeted by 
> salespeople with 
> > "Happy Holidays" or "Seasons greetings". 
Target stores went so 
> far as to 
> > run the Salvation army off it's property.  No buckets or bell
  
> ringers 
> > there anymore.
> > This sounds like where the preachers and banners proclaiming 
> Christ should 
> > be, but then you must remember that the reason these stores
are 
> there is 
> > not to proclaim Christ, but to make money.  If they mentioned
  
> Christ mas, 
> > it would only be lip service.
> >
> > Besides that, we