Re: [TruthTalk] A public request to DaveH
OK. Thanks anyway for engaging me.
Lance
- Original Message -
From:
Dave
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: June 05, 2005 11:50
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] A public request
to DaveH
Lance Muir wrote:
Dave:Thanks for taking a 'run' at it. I'm
surprized at your response to #1DAVEH:
Really?!?!?! I had lunch with some LDS friends yesterday.
They asked what I was doing spending so much time on the computer. I
mentioned TT to them, and they asked what kind of things I discuss. I
specifically mentioned your question #1. One of them said exactly
what I was thinkingit is impossible for an LDS person to answer.
and, I'll attempt to elucidate. As to #2, I'm
afraid it's a 'Roseanne Roseanna Danna thingy. (I said Evangelicalism NOT
Evangelism)!DAVEH: To me they seem very
similar. But I had a gut feeling that I shouldn't answer because I
really don't understand what you meant by it.
I believe that thinking shoul be 'open
structured'. You've read me on this previously so, I'll not repeat myself. I
also believe that Who Jesus Is is absolutely central to the gospel.(See the
Nicean Creed).DAVEH: Which is as you know, a
point I find very interesting and I believe to be a major problem with
Protestantism.
There are distinctives, not historically but in
contrast to current evangelical thought, that I espouse (see them best
articulated in the archives by Bill Taylor). Given this, I never cease to
subject my beliefs to critical questioning. Not unlike yourself, I do this
best with those who do not simply offer a caricature of that which I
believe.
I not only could but do offer a critique of my
own theology regularly. (Get to the point, Lance) This is that which I
sought from yourself. DAVEH:
Ahhh...I see. Sorry to disappoint you Lance, but I don't have
that innate desire to critique my own faith. I suppose I am too simple
minded to do such.
-
Original Message -
From:
Dave
To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent:
June 04, 2005 20:30
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] A public request to DaveH
Lance Muir wrote:
You've outlined your reasons for being here
on numerous occasions, Dave. You write well. You read well. You've
undoubtedly learned much. DAVEH: Thank you
for the kind words, Lance. Though I'm not sure I quite deserve
them
Would you kindly consider the
following:
1. Write a description of Mormonism, as if
you were a non-Mormon, utilizing the information you've gleaned while
being a participant on TT?DAVEH: I'm
afraid I don't know how to do that. I think I am far too biased to
ever write such from a non-LDS viewpoint.
2. Write a description of Evangelicalism,
from a Mormon persepctive, utilizing the information you've gleaned
while being a participant on
TT?DAVEH: ??? I'm not
sure I can do that either. What I see on TT appears not to be
evangelism from my (LDS biased) perspective. Maybe if you would
define it as you perceive it, the perhaps I could offers my
thoughts. Let me explain how I perceive
evangelism, and then you can correct (or enlighten) me if I am
wrong. I see evangelism as a way or calling to spread the gospel of
the Lord. I don't see that happening in TT though. While many
have expressed a desire to bring others to Jesus, what appears to happen
on TT is quite the opposite. What is said seems to have more an
opposing force, rather than an attractive
effect. Let me give you an example. To a
committed Mormon, having their holy underwear waved in their faces at
Conference time is an abomination, and would cause many to recoil rather
than be attracted to the message. Similarly, if another TTer takes
what I find holy and tries to embarrass me with it in TT, would you think
I would be attracted to the person trying to denigrate my beliefs?
So where's evangelism in TT? Instead I see strife and intended
conflict. It almost seems some folks are here to witness the blood
an carnage, if not being the perpetrators of such themselves. Maybe
it's like a wrestling match. Do people really watch wrestling to see
good triumph over evil, or do they instead simply want to see two guys
brutalize one another. IOWthe more blood drawn, the more
enthused the crowd. Those who do not enjoy seeing the blood, simply
leave the arena a
Re: [TruthTalk] A public request to DaveH
Lance Muir wrote:
Dave:Thanks for taking a 'run' at
it. I'm surprized at your response to #1
DAVEH: Really?!?!?! I had lunch with some LDS friends yesterday.
They asked what I was doing spending so much time on the computer. I
mentioned TT to them, and they asked what kind of things I discuss. I
specifically mentioned your question #1. One of them said exactly
what I was thinkingit is impossible for an LDS person to answer.
and, I'll attempt to elucidate. As
to #2, I'm afraid it's a 'Roseanne Roseanna Danna thingy. (I said
Evangelicalism NOT Evangelism)!
DAVEH: To me they seem very similar. But I had a gut feeling that I
shouldn't answer because I really don't understand what you meant by it.
I believe that thinking shoul be
'open structured'. You've read me on this previously so, I'll not
repeat myself. I also believe that Who Jesus Is is absolutely central
to the gospel.(See the Nicean Creed).
DAVEH: Which is as you know, a point I find very interesting and I
believe to be a major problem with Protestantism.
There are distinctives, not
historically but in contrast to current evangelical thought, that I
espouse (see them best articulated in the archives by Bill Taylor).
Given this, I never cease to subject my beliefs to critical
questioning. Not unlike yourself, I do this best with those who do not
simply offer a caricature of that which I believe.
I not only could but do offer a
critique of my own theology regularly. (Get to the point, Lance) This
is that which I sought from yourself.
DAVEH: Ahhh...I see. Sorry to disappoint you Lance, but I
don't have that innate desire to critique my own faith. I suppose I am
too simple minded to do such.
-
Original Message -
From:
Dave
To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent:
June 04, 2005 20:30
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] A public request to DaveH
Lance Muir wrote:
You've outlined your reasons for
being here on numerous occasions, Dave. You write well. You read well.
You've undoubtedly learned much.
DAVEH: Thank you for the kind words, Lance. Though I'm not sure I
quite deserve them
Would you kindly consider the
following:
1. Write a description of
Mormonism, as if you were a non-Mormon, utilizing the information
you've gleaned while being a participant on TT?
DAVEH: I'm afraid I don't know how to do that. I think I am far too
biased to ever write such from a non-LDS viewpoint.
2. Write a description of
Evangelicalism, from a Mormon persepctive, utilizing the information
you've gleaned while being a participant on TT?
DAVEH: ??? I'm not sure I can do that either. What I see on TT
appears not to be evangelism from my (LDS biased) perspective. Maybe
if you would define it as you perceive it, the perhaps I could offers
my thoughts.
Let me explain how I perceive evangelism, and then you can correct
(or enlighten) me if I am wrong. I see evangelism as a way or calling
to spread the gospel of the Lord. I don't see that happening in TT
though. While many have expressed a desire to bring others to Jesus,
what appears to happen on TT is quite the opposite. What is said seems
to have more an opposing force, rather than an attractive effect.
Let me give you an example. To a committed Mormon, having their
holy underwear waved in their faces at Conference time is an
abomination, and would cause many to recoil rather than be attracted to
the message. Similarly, if another TTer takes what I find holy and
tries to embarrass me with it in TT, would you think I would be
attracted to the person trying to denigrate my beliefs? So where's
evangelism in TT? Instead I see strife and intended conflict. It
almost seems some folks are here to witness the blood an carnage, if
not being the perpetrators of such themselves. Maybe it's like a
wrestling match. Do people really watch wrestling to see good triumph
over evil, or do they instead simply want to see two guys brutalize one
another. IOWthe more blood drawn, the more enthused the crowd.
Those who do not enjoy seeing the blood, simply leave the arena after
getting their fill of it. Perhaps those of us who remain have a high
capacity for the talk that is less true and more battle. SoHas TT
merely become a spectator sport in a virtual world of TruthTalk
gladiators and not much else?
It need not be some multi-page,
to-be-published, document. Just do what you've already demonstrated
that you do well.
DAVEH: I may have failed you on that one, Lance. I don't think I can
step aside my LDS biases enough to give you that view. And, I suspect
we have two strikingly different understandings of evangelism. If you
wa
Re: [TruthTalk] A public request to DaveH
Dave:Thanks for taking a 'run' at it. I'm surprized at your response to #1 and, I'll attempt to elucidate. As to #2, I'm afraid it's a 'Roseanne Roseanna Danna thingy. (I said Evangelicalism NOT Evangelism)! I believe that thinking shoul be 'open structured'. You've read me on this previously so, I'll not repeat myself. I also believe that Who Jesus Is is absolutely central to the gospel.(See the Nicean Creed). There are distinctives, not historically but in contrast to current evangelical thought, that I espouse (see them best articulated in the archives by Bill Taylor). Given this, I never cease to subject my beliefs to critical questioning. Not unlike yourself, I do this best with those who do not simply offer a caricature of that which I believe. I not only could but do offer a critique of my own theology regularly. (Get to the point, Lance) This is that which I sought from yourself. - Original Message - From: Dave To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: June 04, 2005 20:30 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] A public request to DaveH Lance Muir wrote: You've outlined your reasons for being here on numerous occasions, Dave. You write well. You read well. You've undoubtedly learned much. DAVEH: Thank you for the kind words, Lance. Though I'm not sure I quite deserve them Would you kindly consider the following: 1. Write a description of Mormonism, as if you were a non-Mormon, utilizing the information you've gleaned while being a participant on TT?DAVEH: I'm afraid I don't know how to do that. I think I am far too biased to ever write such from a non-LDS viewpoint. 2. Write a description of Evangelicalism, from a Mormon persepctive, utilizing the information you've gleaned while being a participant on TT?DAVEH: ??? I'm not sure I can do that either. What I see on TT appears not to be evangelism from my (LDS biased) perspective. Maybe if you would define it as you perceive it, the perhaps I could offers my thoughts. Let me explain how I perceive evangelism, and then you can correct (or enlighten) me if I am wrong. I see evangelism as a way or calling to spread the gospel of the Lord. I don't see that happening in TT though. While many have expressed a desire to bring others to Jesus, what appears to happen on TT is quite the opposite. What is said seems to have more an opposing force, rather than an attractive effect. Let me give you an example. To a committed Mormon, having their holy underwear waved in their faces at Conference time is an abomination, and would cause many to recoil rather than be attracted to the message. Similarly, if another TTer takes what I find holy and tries to embarrass me with it in TT, would you think I would be attracted to the person trying to denigrate my beliefs? So where's evangelism in TT? Instead I see strife and intended conflict. It almost seems some folks are here to witness the blood an carnage, if not being the perpetrators of such themselves. Maybe it's like a wrestling match. Do people really watch wrestling to see good triumph over evil, or do they instead simply want to see two guys brutalize one another. IOWthe more blood drawn, the more enthused the crowd. Those who do not enjoy seeing the blood, simply leave the arena after getting their fill of it. Perhaps those of us who remain have a high capacity for the talk that is less true and more battle. SoHas TT merely become a spectator sport in a virtual world of TruthTalk gladiators and not much else? It need not be some multi-page, to-be-published, document. Just do what you've already demonstrated that you do well.DAVEH: I may have failed you on that one, Lance. I don't think I can step aside my LDS biases enough to give you that view. And, I suspect we have two strikingly different understandings of evangelism. If you want me to elaborate, you'll have to define evangelism as you understand it. I. and every thoughtful participant on TT, understands that you draw a distinction between believers & non-believers which places 'us' in the NB category.DAVEH: Not at all, Lance. As far as I've seen, I think all TTers are believers. We just don't believe all the same things. For that matter, I don't think there are any two TTers who believe alike. But in my book, that doesn't mean they are all unbelievers. As I see it though, believing is simply not enough to achieve salvation. I'm genuinely interested in this. Unless the moderator objectsDAVEH: You mean besides objecting to m
Re: [TruthTalk] A public request to DaveH
Lance Muir wrote: You've outlined your reasons for being here on numerous occasions, Dave. You write well. You read well. You've undoubtedly learned much. DAVEH: Thank you for the kind words, Lance. Though I'm not sure I quite deserve them Would you kindly consider the following: 1. Write a description of Mormonism, as if you were a non-Mormon, utilizing the information you've gleaned while being a participant on TT? DAVEH: I'm afraid I don't know how to do that. I think I am far too biased to ever write such from a non-LDS viewpoint. 2. Write a description of Evangelicalism, from a Mormon persepctive, utilizing the information you've gleaned while being a participant on TT? DAVEH: ??? I'm not sure I can do that either. What I see on TT appears not to be evangelism from my (LDS biased) perspective. Maybe if you would define it as you perceive it, the perhaps I could offers my thoughts. Let me explain how I perceive evangelism, and then you can correct (or enlighten) me if I am wrong. I see evangelism as a way or calling to spread the gospel of the Lord. I don't see that happening in TT though. While many have expressed a desire to bring others to Jesus, what appears to happen on TT is quite the opposite. What is said seems to have more an opposing force, rather than an attractive effect. Let me give you an example. To a committed Mormon, having their holy underwear waved in their faces at Conference time is an abomination, and would cause many to recoil rather than be attracted to the message. Similarly, if another TTer takes what I find holy and tries to embarrass me with it in TT, would you think I would be attracted to the person trying to denigrate my beliefs? So where's evangelism in TT? Instead I see strife and intended conflict. It almost seems some folks are here to witness the blood an carnage, if not being the perpetrators of such themselves. Maybe it's like a wrestling match. Do people really watch wrestling to see good triumph over evil, or do they instead simply want to see two guys brutalize one another. IOWthe more blood drawn, the more enthused the crowd. Those who do not enjoy seeing the blood, simply leave the arena after getting their fill of it. Perhaps those of us who remain have a high capacity for the talk that is less true and more battle. SoHas TT merely become a spectator sport in a virtual world of TruthTalk gladiators and not much else? It need not be some multi-page, to-be-published, document. Just do what you've already demonstrated that you do well. DAVEH: I may have failed you on that one, Lance. I don't think I can step aside my LDS biases enough to give you that view. And, I suspect we have two strikingly different understandings of evangelism. If you want me to elaborate, you'll have to define evangelism as you understand it. I. and every thoughtful participant on TT, understands that you draw a distinction between believers & non-believers which places 'us' in the NB category. DAVEH: Not at all, Lance. As far as I've seen, I think all TTers are believers. We just don't believe all the same things. For that matter, I don't think there are any two TTers who believe alike. But in my book, that doesn't mean they are all unbelievers. As I see it though, believing is simply not enough to achieve salvation. I'm genuinely interested in this. Unless the moderator objects DAVEH: You mean besides objecting to my definition of evangelism, or do you think he will object to me teaching you what I think? :-) I'd really like to hear you on both of the above. Lance -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
[TruthTalk] A public request to DaveH
You've outlined your reasons for being here on numerous occasions, Dave. You write well. You read well. You've undoubtedly learned much. Would you kindly consider the following: 1. Write a description of Mormonism, as if you were a non-Mormon, utilizing the information you've gleaned while being a participant on TT? 2. Write a description of Evangelicalism, from a Mormon persepctive, utilizing the information you've gleaned while being a participant on TT? It need not be some multi-page, to-be-published, document. Just do what you've already demonstrated that you do well. I. and every thoughtful participant on TT, understands that you draw a distinction between believers & non-believers which places 'us' in the NB category. I'm genuinely interested in this. Unless the moderator objects I'd really like to hear you on both of the above. Lance
