RE: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
- Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/16/2006 5:40:41 AM Subject: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: 'Lance Muir' Sent: January 15, 2006 13:42 Subject: RE: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? For cd: I understand baptism INTO CHRIST as identification with Christ, acknowledging participation in his faith/covenant-keeping for us. That is how it would seal a repentance which recognizes him as the one who has done that, and which therefore abandons effort on one's own behalf. We keep the covenant insofar as we are IN HIM who does so. His acts become ours. I hope this helps. D cd: Do you consider the act of baptism as absolute? Can we be "into Him" without baptism? I ask this because of having to clearly distinguish Salvation from Baptism of immersion while on the streets, preaching.Also do you think that after baptism ones acts will come into accountably if one steps outside of Him? In other words; Can I take off the wedding ring (ie baptism as identification) and be accountable for the adultery(ie sin) I commit as related to abandoned "effort"? Thank you for your reply and patience Debbie. From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 7:45 AMTo: Debbie SawczakSubject: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 07:36 Subject: RE: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 2:20:45 PM Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: 'Lance Muir' Sent: January 14, 2006 14:18 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Of course it is sin and needs repenting of. (JD is actually making the same vocabulary mistake below as DM.) But it is not immorality; in fact, it is morality. Where this whole discussion of repentance began was with a critique of street preachers' focus on repentance as a call to turn from immoral living to moral living. As pointed out long ago by Bill and/or JD, the repentance urged on people in much biblical preaching was not a call to moral living, but a call to recognize God. Insofar as it was a call to moral living, it was to people who were already the people of God, and was a call to recognize God as covenant partner. Peter's sermon fits right into that and moves beyond it; the covenant is gathered up in Christ who turns out to be both its maker and keeper, and that is why repentance is sealed by being baptized into him. D cd: Debbie would you be so kind as to explain more on this? Thanks. From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 1:45 PMTo: Debbie SawczakSubject: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 12:54 Subject: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Well it is something that needs to be repented of JD; if it is not sin, then why the need to repent? Dead works is something lifeless as opposed to works of righteousness which are the fruit of walking after the spirit. One is dead religion - the other is life and peace. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:17:39 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes -- and who said that "repentance from dead works" is speaking of sin, anyway? "Dead works" is that body of works that convinces someone that she is accpted by God RATHER THAN PLACING HER FAITH IN THE CHRIST and allowing Him and Him alone to be glorified in this [saving] function. Bill's comment is brilliant, I think, and as it is attached to Acts 2 -- the best possible understanding of what happened on that First Day. There is no reason to think that the Hebrews writer has something else in mind when he speaks of repentance from the failing effort of self justification. jd From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: Debbie Sawczak Dead works is not the same as immorality, which is what I think David means by sin. IMO, that [his equating sin with immorality] is where this false and hence problematic distinction arises between repentance from 'sin' and repentance from a failure to recognize who Christ is. yD From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 10:01 AMTo: Debbie SawczakSubject: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 09:38 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Re: repentance: basically, your admitting that Bill's understanding of the Acts passage he posted is correct--i'd agree that's bible teaching h
RE: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
cd: Lance I just read this and remembered our discussion of Truth being a "Her" Jesus said in Matt.11:19 ...But wisdom is justified of her children:-) - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/16/2006 5:40:41 AM Subject: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? -
Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
- Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: 'Lance Muir' Sent: January 15, 2006 13:42 Subject: RE: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? For cd: I understand baptism INTO CHRIST as identification with Christ, acknowledging participation in his faith/covenant-keeping for us. That is how it would seal a repentance which recognizes him as the one who has done that, and which therefore abandons effort on one's own behalf. We keep the covenant insofar as we are IN HIM who does so. His acts become ours. I hope this helps. D From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 7:45 AMTo: Debbie SawczakSubject: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 07:36 Subject: RE: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 2:20:45 PM Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: 'Lance Muir' Sent: January 14, 2006 14:18 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Of course it is sin and needs repenting of. (JD is actually making the same vocabulary mistake below as DM.) But it is not immorality; in fact, it is morality. Where this whole discussion of repentance began was with a critique of street preachers' focus on repentance as a call to turn from immoral living to moral living. As pointed out long ago by Bill and/or JD, the repentance urged on people in much biblical preaching was not a call to moral living, but a call to recognize God. Insofar as it was a call to moral living, it was to people who were already the people of God, and was a call to recognize God as covenant partner. Peter's sermon fits right into that and moves beyond it; the covenant is gathered up in Christ who turns out to be both its maker and keeper, and that is why repentance is sealed by being baptized into him. D cd: Debbie would you be so kind as to explain more on this? Thanks. From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 1:45 PMTo: Debbie SawczakSubject: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 12:54 Subject: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Well it is something that needs to be repented of JD; if it is not sin, then why the need to repent? Dead works is something lifeless as opposed to works of righteousness which are the fruit of walking after the spirit. One is dead religion - the other is life and peace. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:17:39 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes -- and who said that "repentance from dead works" is speaking of sin, anyway? "Dead works" is that body of works that convinces someone that she is accpted by God RATHER THAN PLACING HER FAITH IN THE CHRIST and allowing Him and Him alone to be glorified in this [saving] function. Bill's comment is brilliant, I think, and as it is attached to Acts 2 -- the best possible understanding of what happened on that First Day. There is no reason to think that the Hebrews writer has something else in mind when he speaks of repentance from the failing effort of self justification. jd From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: Debbie Sawczak Dead works is not the same as immorality, which is what I think David means by sin. IMO, that [his equating sin with immorality] is where this false and hence problematic distinction arises between repentance from 'sin' and repentance from a failure to recognize who Christ is. yD From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 10:01 AMTo: Debbie SawczakSubject: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 09:38 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Re: repentance: basically, your admitting that Bill's understanding of the Acts passage he posted is correct--i'd agree that's bible teaching however, the point you are trying to make about it, represented below, is a scripture dog that don't hunt--as usual, it is your own private notion universalized, shot through with geekness but rooted plainly (through contrast) in personalized philosophy, over which you
Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
- Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: 'Lance Muir' Sent: January 15, 2006 09:23 Subject: RE: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Lance, I think David may be right about regularly posting to TT the remarks I make to you about forwarded messages that I find interesting. I'm genuinely honoured by your judgment that they are worth sharing, and I don't mind people reading them. But if I then become part of the dialogue with those people, it is a problem in that I am not actually on TT (and don't want to be)! It creates an accountability that I can't fulfill, because I can't sign on and become a full-fledged regular participant; I just don't have time. As for the below, I did understand what JD meant in his previous message, and our positions are essentially the same; I was just pointing out some confusion about words, specifically "sin". Below, I'm not sure if JD meant to write "repentance from dead works" or just "dead works"; I suspect the latter. I think dead works themselves are the self-justifying activity, and that is exactly how I would characterize the moral behaviour of a person who has been made to feel guilty about her immorality, asks forgiveness for that, and turns over a new leaf (enlisting Jesus' help, perhaps). This is not repentance, and I think we would agree that this is often the result of "Repent or be damned" preaching, preaching that starts with pointing out our immorality (sins) instead of starting with the intent of the Trinity for us and how Jesus the Incarnate has accomplished it--which leads to repentance from unbelief and self-justification (which are two sides of the same thing and are the real Sin), and life in the Spirit. I am confident JD was saying the same thing. And I am willing to believe that David Miller, although courting people's resort to "dead works" by starting (only sometimes, if I take his word for it) from the wrong place, intends the proper ultimate result. One more message later on (must go now) about baptism into Christ, and then I'd better stop! I welcome anyone else (you? JD? Bill?) to explain that to cd in the meantime so as not to keep him waiting. D From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:59 AMTo: Debbie SawczakSubject: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 15:56 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Debbie: I am trying to say that repentance from dead works is activity that results in self-justification - we repent from that and , in so doing, turn to the only other alternative, Jesus. Does this clarify my remarks? Help !! jd -- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: 'Lance Muir' Sent: January 14, 2006 14:18 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Of course it is sin and needs repenting of. (JD is actually making the same vocabulary mistake below as DM.) But it is not immorality; in fact, it is morality. Where this whole discussion of repentance began was with a critique of street preachers' focus on repentance as a call to turn from immoral living to moral living. As pointed out long ago by Bill and/or JD, the repentance urged on people in much biblical preaching was not a call to moral living, but a call to recognize God. Insofar as it was a call to moral living, it was to people who were already the people of God, and was a call to recognize God as covenant partner. Peter's sermon fits right into that and moves beyond it; the covenant is gathered up in Christ who turns out to be both its maker and keeper, and that is why repentance is sealed by being baptized into him. D From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 1:45 PMTo: Debbie SawczakSubject: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 12:54 Subject: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Well it is something that needs to be repented of JD; if it is not sin, then why the need to repent? Dead works is something lifeless as opposed to works of righteousness which are the fruit of walking after the spirit. One is dead religion - the other is life and peace. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:17:39 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes -- and who said that "repentance from dead works" is speaking of sin, anyway? "Dead works" is that body of works that convinces someone that she is accpted by God R
Re: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
JD wrote: > Yes -- and who said that "repentance > from dead works" is speaking of sin, anyway? I did. JD wrote: > There is no reason to think that the Hebrews writer has > something else in mind when he speaks of repentance > from the failing effort of self justification. The "failing effort of self justification" is sin. Are you going to argue that such works are righteous? I don't think so. If the works that are being repented of are unrighteous, then they are sinful works. The point is that Heb. 6:1 speaks about repenting from WORKS, not repenting of theology, ideology, or a false understanding of the Godhead. As I said in a previous point, I agree about repentance concerning one's attitude toward Jesus Christ or failing to recognize who he is. That too is sin! I preach this all the time. I often rebuke Muslims on this very issue, calling them to repent on this issue. What I disagree with is the EXCLUSION of the concept of repenting from the kinds of sins that are known as deeds or works. To try and separate these from each other is like being satisified that a murderer has repented, not because he has changed his mind and heart about murder, nor because he has experienced contrition for his many murders, but because he has changed his philosophy about the rightful power and authority of government. It is amazing to me that we are arguing about this. The Bible is filled with examples of repentance from sin (repentance from deeds), as illustrated in the many passages I shared that have been stripped away from replies and ignored. You ignore the rest of the Bible at your own peril. David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 12:17 PM Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Yes -- and who said that "repentance from dead works" is speaking of sin, anyway? "Dead works" is that body of works that convinces someone that she is accpted by God RATHER THAN PLACING HER FAITH IN THE CHRIST and allowing Him and Him alone to be glorified in this [saving] function. Bill's comment is brilliant, I think, and as it is attached to Acts 2 -- the best possible understanding of what happened on that First Day. There is no reason to think that the Hebrews writer has something else in mind when he speaks of repentance from the failing effort of self justification. jd -- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: 'Lance Muir' Sent: January 14, 2006 10:32 Subject: RE: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Dead works is not the same as immorality, which is what I think David means by sin. IMO, that [his equating sin with immorality] is where this false and hence problematic distinction arises between repentance from 'sin' and repentance from a failure to recognize who Christ is. yD From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 10:01 AM To: Debbie Sawczak Subject: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 09:38 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Re: repentance: basically, your admitting that Bill's understanding of the Acts passage he posted is correct--i'd agree that's bible teaching however, the point you are trying to make about it, represented below, is a scripture dog that don't hunt--as usual, it is your own private notion universalized, shot through with geekness but rooted plainly (through contrast) in personalized philosophy, over which you sprinkle some home-brew holy water labeled 'Heb 6:1' the issue historically is that you don't study and think much about (e.g.) Heb 6:1 while continually presupposing that it matches your philosophical bias, bec to you it sounds always like it does in the end, it simply ain't bible teaching, Bro On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:46:06 -0500 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: || > Surely you know better than to hang the entire gospel on one's > interpretation of one sermon. || > Heb. 6:1 says that an elementary principle of the doctrine of Christ > is repentance from dead works. This clearly links repentance and sin. || -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 1/13/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 1/13/2006 -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (C
Re: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Yes -- and who said that "repentance from dead works" is speaking of sin, anyway? "Dead works" is that body of works that convinces someone that she is accpted by God RATHER THAN PLACING HER FAITH IN THE CHRIST and allowing Him and Him alone to be glorified in this [saving] function. Bill's comment is brilliant, I think, and as it is attached to Acts 2 -- the best possible understanding of what happened on that First Day. There is no reason to think that the Hebrews writer has something else in mind when he speaks of repentance from the failing effort of self justification. jd -- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: 'Lance Muir' Sent: January 14, 2006 10:32 Subject: RE: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Dead works is not the same as immorality, which is what I think David means by sin. IMO, that [his equating sin with immorality] is where this false and hence problematic distinction arises between repentance from 'sin' and repentance from a failure to recognize who Christ is. yD From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 10:01 AMTo: Debbie SawczakSubject: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 09:38 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Re: repentance: basically, your admitting that Bill's understanding of the Acts passage he posted is correct--i'd agree that's bible teaching however, the point you are trying to make about it, represented below, is a scripture dog that don't hunt--as usual, it is your own private notion universalized, shot through with geekness but rooted plainly (through contrast) in personalized philosophy, over which you sprinkle some home-brew holy water labeled 'Heb 6:1' the issue historically is that you don't study and think much about (e.g.) Heb 6:1 while continually presupposing that it matches your philosophical bias, bec to you it sounds always like it does in the end, it simply ain't bible teaching, Bro On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:46:06 -0500 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:||> Surely you know better than to hang the entire gospel on one's > interpretation of one sermon. ||> Heb. 6:1 says that an elementary principle of the doctrine of Christ > is repentance from dead works. This clearly links repentance and sin. || --No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 1/13/2006 --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 1/13/2006
Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
- Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: 'Lance Muir' Sent: January 14, 2006 10:32 Subject: RE: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Dead works is not the same as immorality, which is what I think David means by sin. IMO, that [his equating sin with immorality] is where this false and hence problematic distinction arises between repentance from 'sin' and repentance from a failure to recognize who Christ is. yD From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 10:01 AMTo: Debbie SawczakSubject: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 09:38 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Re: repentance: basically, your admitting that Bill's understanding of the Acts passage he posted is correct--i'd agree that's bible teaching however, the point you are trying to make about it, represented below, is a scripture dog that don't hunt--as usual, it is your own private notion universalized, shot through with geekness but rooted plainly (through contrast) in personalized philosophy, over which you sprinkle some home-brew holy water labeled 'Heb 6:1' the issue historically is that you don't study and think much about (e.g.) Heb 6:1 while continually presupposing that it matches your philosophical bias, bec to you it sounds always like it does in the end, it simply ain't bible teaching, Bro On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:46:06 -0500 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:||> Surely you know better than to hang the entire gospel on one's > interpretation of one sermon. ||> Heb. 6:1 says that an elementary principle of the doctrine of Christ > is repentance from dead works. This clearly links repentance and sin. || --No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 1/13/2006 --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 1/13/2006
