Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance
RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentanceJudy wrote: > Both Luther and Calvin were Priests of the RCC Actually, Luther was a priest, but Calvin was not. Calvin was a lawyer. If memory serves me correctly, Calvin was never even a member of the RCC. When Calvin referred to the church generically, it was not the same thing that Luther referred to as the church. Luther attempted to reform the RCC, but Calvin never did. Judy wrote to Debbie: > why would you think there was no Mardi Gras > mentality back then such as we see in New > Orleans and other places today?? Excellent point, Judy! This is exactly the way I see it. Very good analogy. David Miller -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance
Thanks for this, Judy. Yes, Calvin was a Roman Catholic as a child, though not an ardent one. If one reads his Institutes of the Christian Religion, which he published at the age of 26, his disdain for Roman Catholicism is apparent whereas his love and adherence for the authority of the church is strong. Calvin did not believe anyone should have anything to do with the Roman Catholic Church. He strongly argued for others to leave the RCC. He was never excommunicated from it because he was never really part of it, though as you point out, he had connections to it in his youth before his conversion. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 11:04 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentanceJudy wrote: > Both Luther and Calvin were Priests of the RCC Actually, Luther was a priest, but Calvin was not. Calvin was a lawyer. If memory serves me correctly, Calvin was never even a member of the RCC. According to David Hunt's book "What Love is This" pp37 Calvin was born to a devoutly religious Roman Catholic family or prominence in an ecclesiastical town dominated by the local bishop and his assisting priests. As secretary and legal advisor to the bishop, Calvin's father Gerald, was an inside participant in a corrupt religiously based political system In a bit of nepotism young Calvin was put on the Church payroll at the age of 12, remaining on it for thirteen years until one year after his conversion to Luther's Protestantism" (so I am wrong about the Priest part: jt) Hunt goes on to report that "quite unexpectedly in 1528 Calvin's father Gerald fell into disfavor with the bishop and was excommunicated from the RCC. Shortly thereafter, Calvin's brother, a priest, was also excommunicated on the grounds of heresy. As a result of the sudden change in circumstances Gerald ordered Calvin whom he had previously expected to enter the priesthood, to Orleans for the study of law. Calvin later explained, "My father had intended me for theology from my childhood. But when he reflected that the career of the law proved everywhere very lucrative for its practitioners, the prospect suddenly made him change his mind" When Calvin referred to the church generically, it was not the same thing that Luther referred to as the church. Luther attempted to reform the RCC, but Calvin never did. Judy wrote to Debbie: > why would you think there was no Mardi Gras > mentality back then such as we see in New > Orleans and other places today?? Excellent point, Judy! This is exactly the way I see it. Very good analogy. David Miller -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance
> [Original Message] > From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Date: 2/24/2006 10:41:02 AM > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance > > RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentanceJudy wrote: > > Both Luther and Calvin were Priests of the RCC > > Actually, Luther was a priest, but Calvin was not. Calvin was a lawyer. If > memory serves me correctly, Calvin was never even a member of the RCC. When > Calvin referred to the church generically, it was not the same thing that > Luther referred to as the church. Luther attempted to reform the RCC, but > Calvin never did. cd: But we already decided that Calvin held a position of power in the Church? History shows this David. Also Ron Mcrae did an indept study on the man and told me his conclusions that being- he believed that Calvin was a lost man trying to understand Gods word.From his fruits I agree. > > Judy wrote to Debbie: > > why would you think there was no Mardi Gras > > mentality back then such as we see in New > > Orleans and other places today?? > > Excellent point, Judy! This is exactly the way I see it. Very good > analogy. cd: Yes -amen. > > David Miller > > -- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance
Dean. with an assist from Ron Mcrae (?) concluded that Calvin was 'a lost man trying to understand Gods word' (Dean agreed with RM (?)) THERE IS SIMPLY NOWHERE TO GO WITH THIS DEAN!! What sort of insular world do such as you and Judy inhabit? Yikes x 10!! - Original Message - From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: February 25, 2006 12:55 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance [Original Message] From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Date: 2/24/2006 10:41:02 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentanceJudy wrote: > Both Luther and Calvin were Priests of the RCC Actually, Luther was a priest, but Calvin was not. Calvin was a lawyer. If memory serves me correctly, Calvin was never even a member of the RCC. When Calvin referred to the church generically, it was not the same thing that Luther referred to as the church. Luther attempted to reform the RCC, but Calvin never did. cd: But we already decided that Calvin held a position of power in the Church? History shows this David. Also Ron Mcrae did an indept study on the man and told me his conclusions that being- he believed that Calvin was a lost man trying to understand Gods word.From his fruits I agree. Judy wrote to Debbie: > why would you think there was no Mardi Gras > mentality back then such as we see in New > Orleans and other places today?? Excellent point, Judy! This is exactly the way I see it. Very good analogy. cd: Yes -amen. David Miller -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance
what does TT evidence suggest? On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 13:15:52 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:>What sort of insular world do[es]..Judy inhabit?
Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance
Title: RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentance As to the latter Judy, I have and, it does. Would you be so kind as to answer, giving your own opinions, concerning the aforementioned persons? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: February 26, 2006 08:46 Subject: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance Well Lance, you have taken up an offence for the so called "church fathers" where IMO the Church has just one Father and only one Lord. I know Paul the apostle referred to himself as a spiritual father to some but these are people he had ministered to in person. I am happy to let those who have gone before RIP. We have the same Word that was "once" delivered to the saints and the same Spirit who inspired the prophets teaching and leading us - so that we lack nothing. Concerning "conclusions" Lance. You come to quite a few of them concerning this Nation and Government yourself. Have you considered that this may also circumvent genuine dialogue also? On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 08:33:52 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: As to the former, "conformed to the image of Christ", yes. As to the latter "cages", no. As I see it, Judy/Dean and others, what underlies the INSULTS (take note Dean) being levelled at: the church fathers, Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Barth, Torrance, Polanyi, Joseph Smith, Dake... (please insert in your favourite 'bad person' here) is a conclusion. I don't feel the need to identify that conclusion.These conclusions are attempt circumventing genuine dialogue.In some/many cases there exists no wish to 'dialogue' whatsoever'. From: Judy Taylor Are Dean and I to believe Lance that you perceive these two men to be "conformed to the image of Christ" in their generation? I had never heard of the "oversize bird cages" do you know about this Lance? On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 07:43:03 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Dean:Am I (are we) to understand that you and Judy have now 'dismissed' THE TWO MAJOR REFORMERS at that time in history? Do either of you perceive Luther/Calvin as UNbelievers? From: Dean Moore I think there is a big difference. Luther was a bit rude and crude and he went from crawling up St. Peters Basillica on his knees and flagellating himself in penance to going wild with "where sin abounds grace doth much more abound" and running off with that. So in his case the pendulum swung as far as it could in the opposite direction. Also he never got completely free from the RC taint in his attitude toward the Jews which was not one of love and longsuffering by any means. One can see the influence of Augustine there - Luther wanted them hunted down and killed. cd: Judy did you know that M.Luther had Street Preachers put in oversize bird cages and hung up in the church even on Sunday morning while he and his followers worshiped God. Amazes me that some people quote hin as an enerest speaker for God. In the entire Bible who was persecuted- the Christians or the pagans? When have Christians done such acts? Concern the moderation of religion-here is what the Bible says: Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. In the above I see no room for modernizing (ie.alter/changing)the gospel to comform to modern belief of righ or wrong.To do so is a great mistake.
Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance
Title: RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentance Who? the church fathers, Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Barth, Torrance, Polanyi, Joseph Smith, Dake... (please insert in your favourite 'bad person' here)? I don't borrow trouble Lance, so I leave judging their persons to the one who judges righteously. As for their writings - I spend about as much time and effort meditating upon them as you do with the policies of George W. They, like him are mere men. On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 08:56:52 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: As to the latter Judy, I have and, it does. Would you be so kind as to answer, giving your own opinions, concerning the aforementioned persons? From: Judy Taylor Well Lance, you have taken up an offence for the so called "church fathers" where IMO the Church has just one Father and only one Lord. I know Paul the apostle referred to himself as a spiritual father to some but these are people he had ministered to in person. I am happy to let those who have gone before RIP. We have the same Word that was "once" delivered to the saints and the same Spirit who inspired the prophets teaching and leading us - so that we lack nothing. Concerning "conclusions" Lance. You come to quite a few of them concerning this Nation and Government yourself. Have you considered that this may also circumvent genuine dialogue also? On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 08:33:52 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: As to the former, "conformed to the image of Christ", yes. As to the latter "cages", no. As I see it, Judy/Dean and others, what underlies the INSULTS (take note Dean) being levelled at: the church fathers, Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Barth, Torrance, Polanyi, Joseph Smith, Dake... (please insert in your favourite 'bad person' here) is a conclusion. I don't feel the need to identify that conclusion.These conclusions are attempt circumventing genuine dialogue.In some/many cases there exists no wish to 'dialogue' whatsoever'. From: Judy Taylor Are Dean and I to believe Lance that you perceive these two men to be "conformed to the image of Christ" in their generation? I had never heard of the "oversize bird cages" do you know about this Lance? On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 07:43:03 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Dean:Am I (are we) to understand that you and Judy have now 'dismissed' THE TWO MAJOR REFORMERS at that time in history? Do either of you perceive Luther/Calvin as UNbelievers? From: Dean Moore I think there is a big difference. Luther was a bit rude and crude and he went from crawling up St. Peters Basillica on his knees and flagellating himself in penance to going wild with "where sin abounds grace doth much more abound" and running off with that. So in his case the pendulum swung as far as it could in the opposite direction. Also he never got completely free from the RC taint in his attitude toward the Jews which was not one of love and longsuffering by any means. One can see the influence of Augustine there - Luther wanted them hunted down and killed. cd: Judy did you know that M.Luther had Street Preachers put in oversize bird cages and hung up in the church even on Sunday morning while he and his followers worshiped God. Amazes me that some people quote hin as an enerest speaker for God. In the entire Bible who was persecuted- the Christians or the pagans? When have Christians done such acts? Concern the moderation of religion-here is what the Bible says: Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. In the above I see no room for modernizing (ie.alter/changing)the gospel to comform to modern belief of righ or wrong.To do so is a great mistake.
Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance
Title: RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentance Dean: I don't consider myself a particularly 'sensitive' person. However, I wonder if you can spot the two implicit insults in Judy's post? This is what comes of the approach you seem to want to take. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: February 26, 2006 09:25 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance Who? the church fathers, Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Barth, Torrance, Polanyi, Joseph Smith, Dake... (please insert in your favourite 'bad person' here)? I don't borrow trouble Lance, so I leave judging their persons to the one who judges righteously. As for their writings - I spend about as much time and effort meditating upon them as you do with the policies of George W. They, like him are mere men. On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 08:56:52 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: As to the latter Judy, I have and, it does. Would you be so kind as to answer, giving your own opinions, concerning the aforementioned persons? From: Judy Taylor Well Lance, you have taken up an offence for the so called "church fathers" where IMO the Church has just one Father and only one Lord. I know Paul the apostle referred to himself as a spiritual father to some but these are people he had ministered to in person. I am happy to let those who have gone before RIP. We have the same Word that was "once" delivered to the saints and the same Spirit who inspired the prophets teaching and leading us - so that we lack nothing. Concerning "conclusions" Lance. You come to quite a few of them concerning this Nation and Government yourself. Have you considered that this may also circumvent genuine dialogue also? On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 08:33:52 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: As to the former, "conformed to the image of Christ", yes. As to the latter "cages", no. As I see it, Judy/Dean and others, what underlies the INSULTS (take note Dean) being levelled at: the church fathers, Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Barth, Torrance, Polanyi, Joseph Smith, Dake... (please insert in your favourite 'bad person' here) is a conclusion. I don't feel the need to identify that conclusion.These conclusions are attempt circumventing genuine dialogue.In some/many cases there exists no wish to 'dialogue' whatsoever'. From: Judy Taylor Are Dean and I to believe Lance that you perceive these two men to be "conformed to the image of Christ" in their generation? I had never heard of the "oversize bird cages" do you know about this Lance? On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 07:43:03 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Dean:Am I (are we) to understand that you and Judy have now 'dismissed' THE TWO MAJOR REFORMERS at that time in history? Do either of you perceive Luther/Calvin as UNbelievers? From: Dean Moore I think there is a big difference. Luther was a bit rude and crude and he went from crawling up St. Peters Basillica on his knees and flagellating himself in penance to going wild with "where sin abounds grace doth much more abound" and running off with that. So in his case the pendulum swung as far as it could in the opposite direction. Also he never got completely free from the RC taint in his attitude toward the Jews which was not one of love and longsuffering by any means. One can see the influence of Augustine there - Luther wanted them hunted down and killed. cd: Judy did you know that M.Luther had Street Preachers put in oversize bird cages and hung up in the church even on Sunday morning while he and his followers worshiped God. Amazes me that some people quote hin as an enerest speaker for God. In the entire Bible who was persecuted- the Christians or the pagans? When have Christians done such acts? Concern the moderation of religion-here is what the Bible says:
Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance
Title: RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentance I see EVER BELIEVER AS HOLDING PART TRUTH AND PART ERROR. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: February 26, 2006 09:20 Subject: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance Thank you Dean, I see this also and can not for the life of me understand why some hold these men in such reverence. Luther once complained about the "pagan wretch" Aristotle whose words ppl were paying more attention to than the Words of Christ. He (Luther) said that God had made him a curse to them because of their sin. Could the same be true today in our generation?? Idolatry is idolatry in any generation. "Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day" (Deut 29:4) On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 09:06:52 -0500 "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: cd: I see then as holding part truth and part error. Their fruits shows them to be more harmful then helpful. What did these two reform the world to Truth or error?I see error in the magnitude of the error of the RCC-which is evident of their praying to Mary as intercessor. Consider this- the truth has always existed but these guys step into the place of truth and prevent the existing truth from spreading with their teachings. The world will always receive error before truth. This is of course derived from my understanding of the actions of these two men mentioned. From: Lance Muir Dean:Am I (are we) to understand that you and Judy have now 'dismissed' THE TWO MAJOR REFORMERS at that time in history? Do either of you perceive Luther/Calvin as UNbelievers? I think there is a big difference. Luther was a bit rude and crude and he went from crawling up St. Peters Basillica on his knees and flagellating himself in penance to going wild with "where sin abounds grace doth much more abound" and running off with that. So in his case the pendulum swung as far as it could in the opposite direction. Also he never got completely free from the RC taint in his attitude toward the Jews which was not one of love and longsuffering by any means. One can see the influence of Augustine there - Luther wanted them hunted down and killed. cd: Judy did you know that M.Luther had Street Preachers put in oversize bird cages and hung up in the church even on Sunday morning while he and his followers worshiped God. Amazes me that some people quote hin as an enerest speaker for God. In the entire Bible who was persecuted- the Christians or the pagans? When have Christians done such acts? Concern the moderation of religion-here is what the Bible says: Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. In the above I see no room for modernizing (ie.alter/changing)the gospel to comform to modern belief of righ or wrong.To do so is a great mistake.
Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance
Title: RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentance This may be your opinion Lance and you may hold them to that - but God says that they either have a HEART to perceive - eyes to see, ears to hear or they don't. If they do the Lord is the one who has given this to them. He is not mocked and he either opens or closes the understanding nothing by chance... On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 09:58:16 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I see EVER BELIEVER AS HOLDING PART TRUTH AND PART ERROR. From: Judy Taylor Thank you Dean, I see this also and can not for the life of me understand why some hold these men in such reverence. Luther once complained about the "pagan wretch" Aristotle whose words ppl were paying more attention to than the Words of Christ. He (Luther) said that God had made him a curse to them because of their sin. Could the same be true today in our generation?? Idolatry is idolatry in any generation. "Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day" (Deut 29:4) On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 09:06:52 -0500 "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: cd: I see then as holding part truth and part error. Their fruits shows them to be more harmful then helpful. What did these two reform the world to Truth or error?I see error in the magnitude of the error of the RCC-which is evident of their praying to Mary as intercessor. Consider this- the truth has always existed but these guys step into the place of truth and prevent the existing truth from spreading with their teachings. The world will always receive error before truth. This is of course derived from my understanding of the actions of these two men mentioned. From: Lance Muir Dean:Am I (are we) to understand that you and Judy have now 'dismissed' THE TWO MAJOR REFORMERS at that time in history? Do either of you perceive Luther/Calvin as UNbelievers? I think there is a big difference. Luther was a bit rude and crude and he went from crawling up St. Peters Basillica on his knees and flagellating himself in penance to going wild with "where sin abounds grace doth much more abound" and running off with that. So in his case the pendulum swung as far as it could in the opposite direction. Also he never got completely free from the RC taint in his attitude toward the Jews which was not one of love and longsuffering by any means. One can see the influence of Augustine there - Luther wanted them hunted down and killed. cd: Judy did you know that M.Luther had Street Preachers put in oversize bird cages and hung up in the church even on Sunday morning while he and his followers worshiped God. Amazes me that some people quote hin as an enerest speaker for God. In the entire Bible who was persecuted- the Christians or the pagans? When have Christians done such acts? Concern the moderation of religion-here is what the Bible says: Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. In the above I see no room for modernizing (ie.alter/changing)the gospel to comform to modern belief of righ or wrong.To do so is a great mistake.
Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance
> [Original Message] > From: Lance Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Date: 2/25/2006 1:22:01 PM > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance > > Dean. with an assist from Ron Mcrae (?) concluded that Calvin was 'a lost > man trying to understand Gods word' (Dean agreed with RM (?)) THERE IS > SIMPLY NOWHERE TO GO WITH THIS DEAN!! What sort of insular world do such as > you and Judy inhabit? Yikes x 10!! cd: One would have to know Ron Mcrae to understand my meaning-I believe him to be a very good student of the Bible- But I do see your point. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance
Title: RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentance - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 2/26/2006 9:51:59 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance Dean: I don't consider myself a particularly 'sensitive' person. However, I wonder if you can spot the two implicit insults in Judy's post? This is what comes of the approach you seem to want to take. cd: I can not control all things Lance and some leadway will be giving. Judy did no name calling-hence no personal insults were giving.Again is there truth in her words in particular in those two remarks you mentioned?If not prove her wrong. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: February 26, 2006 09:25 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance Who? the church fathers, Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Barth, Torrance, Polanyi, Joseph Smith, Dake... (please insert in your favourite 'bad person' here)? I don't borrow trouble Lance, so I leave judging their persons to the one who judges righteously. As for their writings - I spend about as much time and effort meditating upon them as you do with the policies of George W. They, like him are mere men. On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 08:56:52 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: As to the latter Judy, I have and, it does. Would you be so kind as to answer, giving your own opinions, concerning the aforementioned persons? From: Judy Taylor Well Lance, you have taken up an offence for the so called "church fathers" where IMO the Church has just one Father and only one Lord. I know Paul the apostle referred to himself as a spiritual father to some but these are people he had ministered to in person. I am happy to let those who have gone before RIP. We have the same Word that was "once" delivered to the saints and the same Spirit who inspired the prophets teaching and leading us - so that we lack nothing. Concerning "conclusions" Lance. You come to quite a few of them concerning this Nation and Government yourself. Have you considered that this may also circumvent genuine dialogue also? On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 08:33:52 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: As to the former, "conformed to the image of Christ", yes. As to the latter "cages", no. As I see it, Judy/Dean and others, what underlies the INSULTS (take note Dean) being levelled at: the church fathers, Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Barth, Torrance, Polanyi, Joseph Smith, Dake... (please insert in your favourite 'bad person' here) is a conclusion. I don't feel the need to identify that conclusion.These conclusions are attempt circumventing genuine dialogue.In some/many cases there exists no wish to 'dialogue' whatsoever'. From: Judy Taylor Are Dean and I to believe Lance that you perceive these two men to be "conformed to the image of Christ" in their generation? I had never heard of the "oversize bird cages" do you know about this Lance? On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 07:43:03 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Dean:Am I (are we) to understand that you and Judy have now 'dismissed' THE TWO MAJOR REFORMERS at that time in history? Do either of you perceive Luther/Calvin as UNbelievers? From: Dean Moore I think there is a big difference. Luther was a bit rude and crude and he went from crawling up St. Peters Basillica on his knees and flagellating himself in penance to going wild with "where sin abounds grace doth much more abound" and running off with that. So in his case the pendulum swung as far as it could in the opposite direction. Also he never got completely free from the RC taint in his attitude toward the Jews which was not one of love and longsuffering by any means. One can see the influence of Augustine there - Luther wanted them hunted down and killed. cd: Judy did you know that M.Luther had Street Preachers put in oversize bird cages and hung up in the church even on Sunday morning while he and his followers worshiped God. Amazes me that some people quote hin as an enerest speaker for God. In the entire Bible who was persecuted- the Christians or the pagans? When have Christians done such acts? Concern the moderation of religion-here is what the Bible says: Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. In the above I see no room for modernizing (ie.alter/changing)the gospel to comform to modern belief of righ or wrong.To do so is a great mistake.
Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance
Title: RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentance - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 2/26/2006 9:58:30 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance I see EVER BELIEVER AS HOLDING PART TRUTH AND PART ERROR. cd: We all grow Lance into the perfection which is God but the error I am referring to is sin error or great error. This is the error that only a young Christian can get by with and only for a short time. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: February 26, 2006 09:20 Subject: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance Thank you Dean, I see this also and can not for the life of me understand why some hold these men in such reverence. Luther once complained about the "pagan wretch" Aristotle whose words ppl were paying more attention to than the Words of Christ. He (Luther) said that God had made him a curse to them because of their sin. Could the same be true today in our generation?? Idolatry is idolatry in any generation. "Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day" (Deut 29:4) On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 09:06:52 -0500 "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: cd: I see then as holding part truth and part error. Their fruits shows them to be more harmful then helpful. What did these two reform the world to Truth or error?I see error in the magnitude of the error of the RCC-which is evident of their praying to Mary as intercessor. Consider this- the truth has always existed but these guys step into the place of truth and prevent the existing truth from spreading with their teachings. The world will always receive error before truth. This is of course derived from my understanding of the actions of these two men mentioned. From: Lance Muir Dean:Am I (are we) to understand that you and Judy have now 'dismissed' THE TWO MAJOR REFORMERS at that time in history? Do either of you perceive Luther/Calvin as UNbelievers? I think there is a big difference. Luther was a bit rude and crude and he went from crawling up St. Peters Basillica on his knees and flagellating himself in penance to going wild with "where sin abounds grace doth much more abound" and running off with that. So in his case the pendulum swung as far as it could in the opposite direction. Also he never got completely free from the RC taint in his attitude toward the Jews which was not one of love and longsuffering by any means. One can see the influence of Augustine there - Luther wanted them hunted down and killed. cd: Judy did you know that M.Luther had Street Preachers put in oversize bird cages and hung up in the church even on Sunday morning while he and his followers worshiped God. Amazes me that some people quote hin as an enerest speaker for God. In the entire Bible who was persecuted- the Christians or the pagans? When have Christians done such acts? Concern the moderation of religion-here is what the Bible says: Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. In the above I see no room for modernizing (ie.alter/changing)the gospel to comform to modern belief of righ or wrong.To do so is a great mistake.
Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance
David Miller wrote: >> When Calvin referred to the church generically, it >> was not the same thing that Luther referred to as >> the church. Luther attempted to reform the RCC, >> but Calvin never did. CD wrote: > But we already decided that Calvin held a > position of power in the Church? > History shows this David. Yeah, but which church? Not the Roman Catholic Church. CD wrote: > Also Ron Mcrae did an indept study on the man > and told me his conclusions that being- he believed > that Calvin was a lost man trying to understand > Gods word.From his fruits I agree. We cannot judge Calvin completely by all those who claim him. There are many who claim to follow Jesus Christ who believe all kinds of wild things and practice all manner of iniquity, but we don't assign Jesus Christ to the hall of false teachers because of that. There are many ways in which Calvin produced good fruit. Many preachers have been produced by his pointing toward Jesus Christ as the Savior. For example, consider men like John Knox, George Whitefield, and Jonathan Edwards. Also, through Calvin's influence came your belief in the primacy of Scripture and the rejection of the episcopacy. As for Ron McRae, he is an Anabaptist, and Calvin rejected that group (although Calvin had married an Anabaptist!). You should expect Ron to view Calvin in a suspicious light because of that. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance
Title: RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentance
No, Dean. I shall attempt to factor in that which
is deemed an 'insult' and that which is not.It'd appear that the theology of the
'deep south' has influenced both yourself and Judy in ways that you know not
of.
- Original Message -
From:
Dean
Moore
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: February 26, 2006 18:28
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing
repentance
- Original Message -
From:
Lance
Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/26/2006 9:51:59 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing
repentance
Dean: I don't consider myself a particularly
'sensitive' person. However, I wonder if you can spot the two implicit
insults in Judy's post? This is what comes of the approach you seem to want
to take.
cd: I can not control all things
Lance and some leadway will be giving. Judy did no name calling-hence no
personal insults were giving.Again is there truth in her words in particular
in those two remarks you mentioned?If not prove her
wrong.
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: February 26, 2006 09:25
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing
repentance
Who? the church fathers,
Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Barth, Torrance, Polanyi, Joseph Smith,
Dake... (please insert
in your favourite 'bad person'
here)? I don't borrow trouble Lance, so I leave judging their
persons to the one who judges
righteously. As for their
writings - I spend about as much time and effort meditating upon them as
you do with the
policies of George W. They, like
him are mere men.
On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 08:56:52 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
As to the latter Judy, I have and, it
does. Would you be so kind as to answer, giving your own opinions,
concerning the aforementioned persons?
From: Judy
Taylor
Well Lance, you have taken up an offence for
the so called "church fathers" where IMO the Church has just one
Father and only
one Lord. I know Paul the apostle referred to himself as a
spiritual father to some but these are
people he
had ministered to in person. I am happy to let those who
have gone before RIP. We have the same
Word that was "once" delivered to the saints and the same Spirit who
inspired the prophets teaching and leading us - so that we lack nothing. Concerning "conclusions" Lance. You come to quite a few
of them concerning this Nation and
Government yourself. Have you
considered that this may also circumvent genuine dialogue
also?
On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 08:33:52 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
As to the former, "conformed to the
image of Christ", yes. As to the latter "cages", no.
As I see it, Judy/Dean and others, what
underlies the INSULTS (take note Dean) being levelled at: the church
fathers, Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Barth, Torrance, Polanyi, Joseph
Smith, Dake... (please insert in your favourite 'bad person'
here) is a conclusion. I don't feel the need to identify that
conclusion.These conclusions are attempt circumventing genuine
dialogue.In some/many cases there exists no wish to 'dialogue'
whatsoever'.
From: Judy Taylor
Are Dean
and I to believe Lance that you perceive these two men to be
"conformed to the image
of Christ" in their generation? I
had never heard of the "oversize bird cages" do you know about
this Lance?
On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 07:43:03 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
Dean:Am I (are we) to understand
that you and Judy have now 'dismissed' THE TWO MAJOR
REFORMERS at that time in history? Do either of you perceive
Luther/Calvin as UNbelievers?
From: Dean Moore
I think there is
a big difference. Luther was a bit rude and crude and he
Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance
Title: RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentance Belief/life; life/belief...Does error in either necessarily lead to error in the other. If so then, even the 'mature' believer is in 'sin' (read error) - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: February 26, 2006 18:44 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 2/26/2006 9:58:30 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance I see EVER BELIEVER AS HOLDING PART TRUTH AND PART ERROR. cd: We all grow Lance into the perfection which is God but the error I am referring to is sin error or great error. This is the error that only a young Christian can get by with and only for a short time. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: February 26, 2006 09:20 Subject: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance Thank you Dean, I see this also and can not for the life of me understand why some hold these men in such reverence. Luther once complained about the "pagan wretch" Aristotle whose words ppl were paying more attention to than the Words of Christ. He (Luther) said that God had made him a curse to them because of their sin. Could the same be true today in our generation?? Idolatry is idolatry in any generation. "Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day" (Deut 29:4) On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 09:06:52 -0500 "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: cd: I see then as holding part truth and part error. Their fruits shows them to be more harmful then helpful. What did these two reform the world to Truth or error?I see error in the magnitude of the error of the RCC-which is evident of their praying to Mary as intercessor. Consider this- the truth has always existed but these guys step into the place of truth and prevent the existing truth from spreading with their teachings. The world will always receive error before truth. This is of course derived from my understanding of the actions of these two men mentioned. From: Lance Muir Dean:Am I (are we) to understand that you and Judy have now 'dismissed' THE TWO MAJOR REFORMERS at that time in history? Do either of you perceive Luther/Calvin as UNbelievers? I think there is a big difference. Luther was a bit rude and crude and he went from crawling up St. Peters Basillica on his knees and flagellating himself in penance to going wild with "where sin abounds grace doth much more abound" and running off with that. So in his case the pendulum swung as far as it could in the opposite direction. Also he never got completely free from the RC taint in his attitude toward the Jews which was not one of love and longsuffering by any means. One can see the influence of Augustine there - Luther wanted them hunted down and killed. cd: Judy did you know that M.Luther had Street Preachers put in oversize bird cages and hung up in the church even on Sunday morning while he and his followers worshiped God. Amazes me that some people quote hin as an enerest speaker for God. In the entire Bible who was persecuted- the Christians or the pagans? When have Christians done such acts? Concern the moderation of religion-here is what the Bible says: Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. In the above I see no room for modernizing (ie.alter/changing)the gospel to comform to modern belief of righ or wrong.To do so is a great mistake.
Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance
Title: RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentance cd: Sin is a conscious act contrary to the word of God. As in transgression of God's laws Lance.Which is great error. Life is full of mistakes. One can be perfect in God laws and imperfect in the life one lives. - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 2/27/2006 6:10:13 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance Belief/life; life/belief...Does error in either necessarily lead to error in the other. If so then, even the 'mature' believer is in 'sin' (read error) - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: February 26, 2006 18:44 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 2/26/2006 9:58:30 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance I see EVER BELIEVER AS HOLDING PART TRUTH AND PART ERROR. cd: We all grow Lance into the perfection which is God but the error I am referring to is sin error or great error. This is the error that only a young Christian can get by with and only for a short time. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: February 26, 2006 09:20 Subject: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance Thank you Dean, I see this also and can not for the life of me understand why some hold these men in such reverence. Luther once complained about the "pagan wretch" Aristotle whose words ppl were paying more attention to than the Words of Christ. He (Luther) said that God had made him a curse to them because of their sin. Could the same be true today in our generation?? Idolatry is idolatry in any generation. "Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day" (Deut 29:4) On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 09:06:52 -0500 "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: cd: I see then as holding part truth and part error. Their fruits shows them to be more harmful then helpful. What did these two reform the world to Truth or error?I see error in the magnitude of the error of the RCC-which is evident of their praying to Mary as intercessor. Consider this- the truth has always existed but these guys step into the place of truth and prevent the existing truth from spreading with their teachings. The world will always receive error before truth. This is of course derived from my understanding of the actions of these two men mentioned. From: Lance Muir Dean:Am I (are we) to understand that you and Judy have now 'dismissed' THE TWO MAJOR REFORMERS at that time in history? Do either of you perceive Luther/Calvin as UNbelievers? I think there is a big difference. Luther was a bit rude and crude and he went from crawling up St. Peters Basillica on his knees and flagellating himself in penance to going wild with "where sin abounds grace doth much more abound" and running off with that. So in his case the pendulum swung as far as it could in the opposite direction. Also he never got completely free from the RC taint in his attitude toward the Jews which was not one of love and longsuffering by any means. One can see the influence of Augustine there - Luther wanted them hunted down and killed. cd: Judy did you know that M.Luther had Street Preachers put in oversize bird cages and hung up in the church even on Sunday morning while he and his followers worshiped God. Amazes me that some people quote hin as an enerest speaker for God. In the entire Bible who was persecuted- the Christians or the pagans? When have Christians done such acts? Concern the moderation of religion-here is what the Bible says: Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. In the above I see no room for modernizing (ie.alter/changing)the gospel to comform to modern belief of righ or wrong.To do so is a great mistake.
Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance
Title: RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentance
'Sin', Dean, may be a little more than
that.
- Original Message -
From:
Dean
Moore
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: March 03, 2006 16:42
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing
repentance
cd: Sin is a conscious act contrary to the word of God. As
in transgression of God's laws Lance.Which is great error. Life is full
of mistakes. One can be perfect in God laws and imperfect in the life one
lives.
- Original Message -
From:
Lance
Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/27/2006 6:10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing
repentance
Belief/life; life/belief...Does error in either
necessarily lead to error in the other. If so then, even the 'mature'
believer is in 'sin' (read error)
- Original Message -
From:
Dean
Moore
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: February 26, 2006 18:44
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing
repentance
- Original Message -
From:
Lance
Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/26/2006 9:58:30 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing
repentance
I see EVER BELIEVER AS HOLDING PART TRUTH
AND PART ERROR.
cd: We all grow Lance into
the perfection which is God but the error I am referring to is sin error
or great error. This is the error that only a young Christian
can get by with and only for a short time.
- Original Message -
From:
Judy Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: February 26, 2006
09:20
Subject: [TruthTalk] Continuing
repentance
Thank you Dean, I see this also and can not
for the life of me understand why some hold these men in
such
reverence. Luther once complained about
the "pagan wretch" Aristotle whose words ppl were paying
more
attention to than the Words of
Christ. He (Luther) said that God had made him a curse to them
because of
their sin.
Could the same be true today in our generation?? Idolatry is idolatry
in any generation.
"Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to
perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day"
(Deut 29:4)
On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 09:06:52 -0500 "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
cd: I see then as
holding part truth and part error. Their fruits shows them to be
more harmful then helpful. What did these two reform the world to
Truth or error?I see error in the magnitude of the error of the
RCC-which is evident of their praying to Mary as intercessor.
Consider this- the truth has always existed but these guys step into
the place of truth and prevent the existing truth from spreading
with their teachings. The world will always receive error before
truth. This is of course derived from my understanding of the
actions of these two men mentioned.
From: Lance Muir
Dean:Am I (are we) to understand that
you and Judy have now 'dismissed' THE TWO MAJOR REFORMERS at
that time in history? Do either of you perceive Luther/Calvin as
UNbelievers?
I think there is a big difference. Luther was
a bit rude and crude and he went from crawling up St. Peters
Basillica on his knees and flagellating himself in penance to
going wild with "where sin abounds grace doth much more
abound" and running off with that. So in his case the pendulum
swung as far as it could in the opposite direction. Also
he never got completely free from the RC taint in
his attitude toward the Jews which was not one of love and
longsuffering by any means. One can see the influence of Augustine
there - Luther wanted them hunted down
and killed.
cd:
Judy did you know that M.Luther had Street Preachers put in
oversize bird cages and h
Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance
Title: RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentance cd:Such as? - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 3/4/2006 6:12:10 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance 'Sin', Dean, may be a little more than that. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 03, 2006 16:42 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance cd: Sin is a conscious act contrary to the word of God. As in transgression of God's laws Lance.Which is great error. Life is full of mistakes. One can be perfect in God laws and imperfect in the life one lives. - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 2/27/2006 6:10:13 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance Belief/life; life/belief...Does error in either necessarily lead to error in the other. If so then, even the 'mature' believer is in 'sin' (read error) - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: February 26, 2006 18:44 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 2/26/2006 9:58:30 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance I see EVER BELIEVER AS HOLDING PART TRUTH AND PART ERROR. cd: We all grow Lance into the perfection which is God but the error I am referring to is sin error or great error. This is the error that only a young Christian can get by with and only for a short time. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: February 26, 2006 09:20 Subject: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance Thank you Dean, I see this also and can not for the life of me understand why some hold these men in such reverence. Luther once complained about the "pagan wretch" Aristotle whose words ppl were paying more attention to than the Words of Christ. He (Luther) said that God had made him a curse to them because of their sin. Could the same be true today in our generation?? Idolatry is idolatry in any generation. "Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day" (Deut 29:4) On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 09:06:52 -0500 "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: cd: I see then as holding part truth and part error. Their fruits shows them to be more harmful then helpful. What did these two reform the world to Truth or error?I see error in the magnitude of the error of the RCC-which is evident of their praying to Mary as intercessor. Consider this- the truth has always existed but these guys step into the place of truth and prevent the existing truth from spreading with their teachings. The world will always receive error before truth. This is of course derived from my understanding of the actions of these two men mentioned. From: Lance Muir Dean:Am I (are we) to understand that you and Judy have now 'dismissed' THE TWO MAJOR REFORMERS at that time in history? Do either of you perceive Luther/Calvin as UNbelievers? I think there is a big difference. Luther was a bit rude and crude and he went from crawling up St. Peters Basillica on his knees and flagellating himself in penance to going wild with "where sin abounds grace doth much more abound" and running off with that. So in his case the pendulum swung as far as it could in the opposite direction. Also he never got completely free from the RC taint in his attitude toward the Jews which was not one of love and longsuffering by any means. One can see the influence of Augustine there - Luther wanted them hunted down and killed. cd: Judy did you know that M.Luther had Street Preachers put in oversize bird cages and hung up in the church even on Sunday morning while he and his followers worshiped God. Amazes me that some people quote hin as an enerest speaker for God. In the entire Bible who was persecuted- the Christians or the pagans? When have Christians done such acts? Concern the moderation of religion-here is what the Bible says: Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. In the above I see no room for modernizing (ie.alter/changing)the gospel to comform to modern belief of righ or wrong.To do so is a great mistake.
