Re: [TruthTalk] Nephi or Moroni?
Blaine wrote see below** -- "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Joseph Smith wrote: >> Nevertheless I fell into transgression and >> sinned in many things which brought wound >> upon my Soul [sic] and there were many things >> which transpired that cannot be writen [sic] and >> my Fathers [sic] family have suffered many persecutions >> and afflictions. Blaine wrote: > This is a beautiful account written by a > humble man, Joseph Smith. Thank you > for finding it. It makes me very happy that > he was willing to admit he was not perfect. What Joseph Smith wrote here is despicable. Visions from God inherently have the opposite effect as described by Smith. They lead one to walk far above sin. **BLAINE: One can only conjecture what Joseph was referring to, but it apparently was not too serious. He admitted to "levity." (:>) Blaine wrote: > I once had a spiritual experience which, > like that of Joseph Smith, "filled my heart > with love for many days." I know exactly > how that feels. Did you also sin in many things after your experience? **BLAINE: No. I was out of work then, and found a job the very next day. The peace I felt from the experience gave me the faith to find the job. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Nephi or Moroni?
Joseph Smith wrote: >> Nevertheless I fell into transgression and >> sinned in many things which brought wound >> upon my Soul [sic] and there were many things >> which transpired that cannot be writen [sic] and >> my Fathers [sic] family have suffered many persecutions >> and afflictions. Blaine wrote: > This is a beautiful account written by a > humble man, Joseph Smith. Thank you > for finding it. It makes me very happy that > he was willing to admit he was not perfect. What Joseph Smith wrote here is despicable. Visions from God inherently have the opposite effect as described by Smith. They lead one to walk far above sin. Blaine wrote: > I once had a spiritual experience which, > like that of Joseph Smith, "filled my heart > with love for many days." I know exactly > how that feels. Did you also sin in many things after your experience? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Nephi or Moroni?
Kevin's report of JS's words: "and my Soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice with great joy and the Lord was with me but could find none that would believe the hevenly vision. . . . Nevertheless I fell into transgression and sinned in many things which brought wound upon my Soul and there were many things which transpired that cannot be writen and my Fathers family have suffered many persecutions and afflictions. " BLAINE: This is a beautiful account written by a humble man, Joseph Smith. Thank you for finding it. It makes me very happy that he was willing to admit he was not perfect. I am not perfect either, are you perfect Kevin? I once had a spiritual experience which, like that of Joseph Smith, "filled my heart with love for many days." I know exactly how that feels. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Nephi or Moroni?
BLAINE: Very ineresting account, Kevin. I fully believe everything in it. But
it is just incomplete. Joseph Smith was focusing on his conversation with
Jesus Christ. He simply did not mention in this account the full course of
events. According to the official account, the Father had spoken moments
before, saying, This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased--hear ye him.
This all makes perfect sense to me--again, you are just grabbing at straws, as
all detractors do. You need to be more positive, and the light of this great
event will begin to seep in on you. Love and charity , Kevin, are the keys.
Charity will tell you the truth of all things.
All accounts DO NOT include two individuals!
Most accounts do not for instance the 1832 handwritten acct of Joe
http://www.lds-mormon.com/fv.shtml
I cried unto the Lord for mercy forthere was none else to whom I could go and
{to} obtain mercy andthe Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in [the]
attitude of calling upon the Lord [in the 16th* year of my age] a pillar of
{fire} lightabove the brightness of the Sun at noon day come down fromabove and
rested upon me and I was filld with the Spirit of God and the [Lord] opened the
heavens upon me and I Saw the Lord and he Spake unto me Saying Joseph [my son]
thy Sins are forgiven thee. go thy [way] walk in my Statutes and keep my
commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that
all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life [behold] the world lieth
in sin {and} at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned
asside from the Gospel and keep not [my] commandments they draw near to me with
their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling
against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them acording to this ungodliness
and to bring to pass that which [hat
h] been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Apostles behold and lo I come
quickly as it written of me in the cloud [clothed] in the glory of my Father
and my Soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice with great
joy and the Lord was with me but could find none that would believe the hevenly
vision. . . . Nevertheless I fell into transgression and sinned in many things
which brought wound upon my Soul and there were many things which transpired
that cannot be writen and my Fathers family have suffered many persecutions and
afflictions.
--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL
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Re: [TruthTalk] Nephi or Moroni?
BLAINE: Who are you to say who was responsible? Joseph had a complex organization of hundreds of men working under him. It would have been impossible for errors not to happen. You are, as usual, grabbing at straws. Besides, you did not even seem to be aware of the difference between the first vision, and the subsequent angelic visitation by Moroni. I repeat: They were two separate events--three years or so apart. Joseph was responsible for these news articles so he must have got mixed up "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: BLAINE: Thank you for taking time to look these up. But I see no problem here. The names Nephi and Moroni both sound a lot alike--it is likely people got the two confused when writing down what they heard Joseph say. Also, the first vision and the angelic visit are separate events: the first vision took place in the wooded area near the Smith home, now referred to as the "Sacred Grove," when Joseph was if his fifteenth year--about 1820. All accounts of this event mention two individuals, and that they were identical in appearance. The visit from the angel took place later, on September 21, 1823, in the Smith home, after Joseph Smith had prayed to find out his standing before God--by that time, he had related the story of the first vision to many people, and persecution, reviling and all manner of evil speaking against him had immediately arisen, mostly from ministers of the various religions, but apparently from many others as well. He states in his 1838 history that "I was led to say in my heart: why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision, and who am I that I can withstand God? . . . " -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Nephi or Moroni?
(ftr, one current source of 'the summary with a link' concept--this is a good approach to citing info perhaps a few people, not everybody, may require) On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:12:11 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: || Click the links for scans of the documents.. ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Nephi or Moroni?
Joseph was responsible for these news articles so he must have got mixed up"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: BLAINE: Thank you for taking time to look these up. But I see no problem here. The names Nephi and Moroni both sound a lot alike--it is likely people got the two confused when writing down what they heard Joseph say. Also, the first vision and the angelic visit are separate events: the first vision took place in the wooded area near the Smith home, now referred to as the "Sacred Grove," when Joseph was if his fifteenth year--about 1820. All accounts of this event mention two individuals, and that they were identical in appearance.The visit from the angel took place later, on September 21, 1823, in the Smith home, after Joseph Smith had prayed to find out his standing before God--by that time, he had related the story of the first vision to many people, and persecution, reviling and all manner of evil speaking against him had immediately arisen, mostly from ministers of the various religions, but apparently from many others as well. He states in his 1838 history that "I was led to say in my heart: why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision, and who am I that I can withstand God? . . . " Click the links for scans of the documents BalaineKevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: "He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 53 (1842) "Again, when we read the history of our beloved brother, Joseph Smith, and of the glorious ministry and message of the angel Nephi" Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 71 (1842) Joseph Smith - "When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." 1851 Pearl of Great Price, p. 41 (1851) Joseph Smith - "He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Times and Seasons, vol. 3, p. 753 (1842)Lucy Mack Smith, also said the angel's name was Nephi (Biographical Sketches, p. 79). Thomas Bullock Journal - In a journal entry Thomas Bullock claims that the name of the messenger was Nephi.John Whitmer Statement - This statement as recorded in Reorganized Church History acknowledges the messenger to have been Nephi.BLAINE: Hmm, maybe you ought to print the version with NEPHI as the angel, Kevin, along with a source. I don't seem to find it in my book along with all the others. (:Why was there NO account UNTIL 1832 and it did not even have 2 personages in it just an Angel NEPHIIs that added information or something to be removed in a LATER version?Technically not a contradiction just a small problem that can be excised by some revision & editing."[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:Kevin wrote:The First vision is dated 1820. I am sure you are aware of the many different versionsBLAINE: I am fully aware of the different versions. No contradictions, however, although they sometimes add information not present in other versions. Some versions are not from Joseph, but are second-hand versions as others have retold what they recall from Joseph telling them. They are all written in a 2 volume set of books called THE PAPERS OF JOSEPH SMITH, published by Deseret Book.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! Try it today!
Re: [TruthTalk] Nephi or Moroni?
All accounts DO NOT include two individuals!
Most accounts do not for instance the 1832 handwritten acct of Joe
http://www.lds-mormon.com/fv.shtml
I cried unto the Lord for mercy forthere was none else to whom I could go and {to} obtain mercy andthe Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in [the] attitude of calling upon the Lord [in the 16th* year of my age] a pillar of {fire} lightabove the brightness of the Sun at noon day come down fromabove and rested upon me and I was filld with the Spirit of God and the [Lord] opened the heavens upon me and I Saw the Lord and he Spake unto me Saying Joseph [my son] thy Sins are forgiven thee. go thy [way] walk in my Statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life [behold] the world lieth in sin {and} at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned asside from the Gospel and keep not [my] commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of
the earth to visit them acording to this ungodliness and to bring to pass that which [hath] been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Apostles behold and lo I come quickly as it written of me in the cloud [clothed] in the glory of my Father and my Soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice with great joy and the Lord was with me but could find none that would believe the hevenly vision. . . . Nevertheless I fell into transgression and sinned in many things which brought wound upon my Soul and there were many things which transpired that cannot be writen and my Fathers family have suffered many persecutions and afflictions. "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
BLAINE: Thank you for taking time to look these up. But I see no problem here. The names Nephi and Moroni both sound a lot alike--it is likely people got the two confused when writing down what they heard Joseph say. Also, the first vision and the angelic visit are separate events: the first vision took place in the wooded area near the Smith home, now referred to as the "Sacred Grove," when Joseph was if his fifteenth year--about 1820. All accounts of this event mention two individuals, and that they were identical in appearance.The visit from the angel took place later, on September 21, 1823, in the Smith home, after Joseph Smith had prayed to find out his standing before God--by that time, he had related the story of the first vision to many people, and persecution, reviling and all manner of evil speaking against him had immediately arisen, mostly from ministers of the
various religions, but apparently from many others as well. He states in his 1838 history that "I was led to say in my heart: why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision, and who am I that I can withstand God? . . . " Click the links for scans of the documents BalaineKevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: "He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 53 (1842) "Again, when we read the history of our beloved brother, Joseph Smith, and of the glorious ministry and message of the angel Nephi" Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 71 (1842) Joseph Smith - "When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." 1851 Pearl of Great Price, p. 41 (1851)
Joseph Smith - "He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Times and Seasons, vol. 3, p. 753 (1842)Lucy Mack Smith, also said the angel's name was Nephi (Biographical Sketches, p. 79). Thomas Bullock Journal - In a journal entry Thomas Bullock claims that the name of the messenger was Nephi.John Whitmer Statement - This statement as recorded in Reorganized Church History acknowledges the messenger to have been Nephi.BLAINE: Hmm, maybe you ought to print the version with NEPHI as the angel, Kevin, along with a source. I don't seem to find it in my book along with all the others. (:Why was there NO account UNTIL 1832 and it did not even have 2 personages in it just an Angel NEPHIIs that added information or something to be removed in a LATER version?Technically not a contradiction just a small problem that can be excised by some
revision & editing."[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:Kevin wrote:The First vision is dated 1820. I am sure you are aware of the many different versionsBLAINE: I am fully aware of the different versions. No contradictions, however, although they sometimes add information not present in other versions. Some versions are not from Joseph, but are second-hand versions as others have retold what they recall from Joseph telling them. They are all written in a 2
Re: [TruthTalk] Nephi or Moroni?
Try it with your wife Thats what happened with all those other details also. Some of the most unusual excuses since I caught the kids in the cookie jar"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: BLAINE: Thank you for taking time to look these up. But I see no problem here. The names Nephi and Moroni both sound a lot alike--it is likely people got the two confused when writing down what they heard Joseph say. Also, the first vision and the angelic visit are separate events: the first vision took place in the wooded area near the Smith home, now referred to as the "Sacred Grove," when Joseph was if his fifteenth year--about 1820. All accounts of this event mention two individuals, and that they were identical in appearance.The visit from the angel took place later, on September 21, 1823, in the Smith home, after Joseph Smith had prayed to find out his standing before God--by that time, he had related the story of the first vision to many people, and persecution, reviling and all manner of evil speaking against him had immediately arisen, mostly from ministers of the various religions, but apparently from many others as well. He states in his 1838 history that "I was led to say in my heart: why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision, and who am I that I can withstand God? . . . " Click the links for scans of the documents BalaineKevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: "He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 53 (1842) "Again, when we read the history of our beloved brother, Joseph Smith, and of the glorious ministry and message of the angel Nephi" Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 71 (1842) Joseph Smith - "When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." 1851 Pearl of Great Price, p. 41 (1851) Joseph Smith - "He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Times and Seasons, vol. 3, p. 753 (1842)Lucy Mack Smith, also said the angel's name was Nephi (Biographical Sketches, p. 79). Thomas Bullock Journal - In a journal entry Thomas Bullock claims that the name of the messenger was Nephi.John Whitmer Statement - This statement as recorded in Reorganized Church History acknowledges the messenger to have been Nephi.BLAINE: Hmm, maybe you ought to print the version with NEPHI as the angel, Kevin, along with a source. I don't seem to find it in my book along with all the others. (:Why was there NO account UNTIL 1832 and it did not even have 2 personages in it just an Angel NEPHIIs that added information or something to be removed in a LATER version?Technically not a contradiction just a small problem that can be excised by some revision & editing."[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:Kevin wrote:The First vision is dated 1820. I am sure you are aware of the many different versionsBLAINE: I am fully aware of the different versions. No contradictions, however, although they sometimes add information not present in other versions. Some versions are not from Joseph, but are second-hand versions as others have retold what they recall from Joseph telling them. They are all written in a 2 volume set of books called THE PAPERS OF JOSEPH SMITH, published by Deseret Book.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
