Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Dave, thanks for taking the time to reply. I have stated my position already, and do not need to repeat them. I have nothing new to add to what I have already written. From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 23:26:34 -0700 DAVEH: Sorry to take so long responding to your previous post of last month, Perry. I'm slowly trying to catch up on my email traffic! Charles Perry Locke wrote: DAVEH: Do you think the foreknowledge of God figures into the passage Slade originally quoted... As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. His students asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Yeshua answered, "Neither did this man sin, nor his parents; but, that the works of God might be revealed in him. (John 9:1-3) ..? To me, this seems like indirect evidence there was some cognition of a pre-mortal existence. I see absolutely no suggestion of pre-mortal existence in the above verse. I have read it many times, and have never in any way connected it with pre-mortal existence. DAVEH: Hmm...seems pretty obvious to me, Perry. If the guy was born blind, and they questioned the reason for his blindness.either the result of his parents' sins, or the blind man's own sins..when do you think that blind man could have sinned to cause him to be born that way??? Would you not conclude that they thought the blind guy could have sinned *prior *to his birth? Perhaps you admitted LDS bias is causing you to see evidence that does not exist in this verse. Did you interpret this verse this way yourself, or is it related to your LDS training? DAVEH: Pure logic, Perry. I've explained why I think the passage shows that they believed the man had a pre-mortal existence due to him sinning prior to his birth. How do you see it differently? DAVEH: I assume you believe your Protestant God was once a man too, do you not? No, He was not. The aspect of the Trinity referred to as "the Son" became a man, was crucified, and was raised from the dead, but then I am talking about the real God, DAVEH: OK PerrySo you believe the Son became a man. And, you believe the Son was (and is) God.is that correct? Then logically, does that not man that your Protestant God was once a man too? Where am I misunderstanding you on this? not the ficitious LDS god or LDS jesus. DAVEH: I'm not trying to quote LDS Scripture here to support my beliefs.as you know, that is not my purpose. I just wonder why you don't understand the pre-mortal spirit implication Jn 9:1-3 as I do. And, likewise, I wonder why you do. DAVEH: Was my above explanation adequate to help you understand the logic behind this? I see it as another verse you are using as a prooftext DAVEH: Why would you accuse me of prooftexting when I am simply offering a passage as evidence supporting my belief? to attempt to support an LDS false belief, like the baptism of the dead verse, or the verse about "ye are gods", and myriad other contortions of scruipture taken out of context and bent to support JS's false prophecies and babbling. DAVEH: There are many passages in the Bible that support my beliefs which are contrary to those of many Protestants. That's why I enjoy TT, Perry.it gives me a chance to ask guys like you why they cannot see the obvious implications of some of the passages that infer that early Christians thought baptism was necessary for salvation (and hence baptized those who passed on previously without being baptized), or why the Lord would use a passage to confound those trying to entrap him IF that passage did not directly correspond to the fact that he (Jesus) is God. Why you think I've taken those passages out of context.I'm not sure, Perry. If you or any other TTers would like to show me how any of these three (including the presumed sins before birth of the blind guy) instances are taken out of context, please explain. DAVEH: I don't understand why you think discussing your understanding of the nature of God is a waste of time, even if it does parallel my (LDS biased) belief. Please don't give this more than is due...the parallel is sketchy at best, bound only in the words used, not in their meaning, and not in any similarity of characters. DAVEH: I consider the nature of God to be an important topic. If you wish not to discuss it simply because my understanding is so vastly inferior to yours.that is your choice. If a Protestant wanted to discuss the nature of God, I would think you would not find that a waste of time. Is it just because I'm a Mormon that you don't want to condescend to my level to discuss God? I do not find discussing the nature of God a waste of time at all. I find comparing God
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
DAVEH: Sorry to take so long responding to your previous post of last month, Perry. I'm slowly trying to catch up on my email traffic! Charles Perry Locke wrote: DAVEH: Do you think the foreknowledge of God figures into the passage Slade originally quoted... As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. His students asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Yeshua answered, "Neither did this man sin, nor his parents; but, that the works of God might be revealed in him. (John 9:1-3) ..? To me, this seems like indirect evidence there was some cognition of a pre-mortal existence. I see absolutely no suggestion of pre-mortal existence in the above verse. I have read it many times, and have never in any way connected it with pre-mortal existence. DAVEH: Hmm...seems pretty obvious to me, Perry. If the guy was born blind, and they questioned the reason for his blindness.either the result of his parents' sins, or the blind man's own sins..when do you think that blind man could have sinned to cause him to be born that way??? Would you not conclude that they thought the blind guy could have sinned prior to his birth? Perhaps you admitted LDS bias is causing you to see evidence that does not exist in this verse. Did you interpret this verse this way yourself, or is it related to your LDS training? DAVEH: Pure logic, Perry. I've explained why I think the passage shows that they believed the man had a pre-mortal existence due to him sinning prior to his birth. How do you see it differently? DAVEH: I assume you believe your Protestant God was once a man too, do you not? No, He was not. The aspect of the Trinity referred to as "the Son" became a man, was crucified, and was raised from the dead, but then I am talking about the real God, DAVEH: OK PerrySo you believe the Son became a man. And, you believe the Son was (and is) God.is that correct? Then logically, does that not man that your Protestant God was once a man too? Where am I misunderstanding you on this? not the ficitious LDS god or LDS jesus. DAVEH: I'm not trying to quote LDS Scripture here to support my beliefs.as you know, that is not my purpose. I just wonder why you don't understand the pre-mortal spirit implication Jn 9:1-3 as I do. And, likewise, I wonder why you do. DAVEH: Was my above explanation adequate to help you understand the logic behind this? I see it as another verse you are using as a prooftext DAVEH: Why would you accuse me of prooftexting when I am simply offering a passage as evidence supporting my belief? to attempt to support an LDS false belief, like the baptism of the dead verse, or the verse about "ye are gods", and myriad other contortions of scruipture taken out of context and bent to support JS's false prophecies and babbling. DAVEH: There are many passages in the Bible that support my beliefs which are contrary to those of many Protestants. That's why I enjoy TT, Perry.it gives me a chance to ask guys like you why they cannot see the obvious implications of some of the passages that infer that early Christians thought baptism was necessary for salvation (and hence baptized those who passed on previously without being baptized), or why the Lord would use a passage to confound those trying to entrap him IF that passage did not directly correspond to the fact that he (Jesus) is God. Why you think I've taken those passages out of context.I'm not sure, Perry. If you or any other TTers would like to show me how any of these three (including the presumed sins before birth of the blind guy) instances are taken out of context, please explain. DAVEH: I don't understand why you think discussing your understanding of the nature of God is a waste of time, even if it does parallel my (LDS biased) belief. Please don't give this more than is due...the parallel is sketchy at best, bound only in the words used, not in their meaning, and not in any similarity of characters. DAVEH: I consider the nature of God to be an important topic. If you wish not to discuss it simply because my understanding is so vastly inferior to yours.that is your choice. If a Protestant wanted to discuss the nature of God, I would think you would not find that a waste of time. Is it just because I'm a Mormon that you don't want to condescend to my level to discuss God? I do not find discussing the nature of God a waste of time at all. I find comparing God or Jesus to a fictitious god and a fictitious jesus a waste of time. DAVEH: I don't think the nature of God as described in the Bible is a waste of time either, Perry. But when doctrines of men (viz, the Trinity Doctrine) get introduced into mainstream theology, then the discussion really does become a waste of time. Let me lay out what I was trying to explain. I believe Jesus existed as a spirit being in th
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Judy, I am sorry I did not see this earlier. I will certainly be praying. I hope you do go to Austin. You will be a great help. Bill - Original Message - From: "Judy Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 10:36 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request > We have just learned that today Jenna went into shock and is back in > hospital. She is > presently in the ICU on a ventilater with tubes all over her. This shock > reaction is to > one of the drugs they gave her for the leukemia the day she left the > hospital in Austin. > She is in serious condition and the oncologist told our daughter that he > hasn't seen a > reaction like this in 2yrs but it does happen. > > Jenna may be hospitalized for up to two weeks and I need to pray about > whether to fly > to Texas to help with the other three kids. > > Thanks so much, > judyt > -- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Judy, I'm so saddened to hear this. You and your family remain in my prayers. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 10:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request We have just learned that today Jenna went into shock and is back in hospital. She is presently in the ICU on a ventilater with tubes all over her. This shock reaction is to one of the drugs they gave her for the leukemia the day she left the hospital in Austin. She is in serious condition and the oncologist told our daughter that he hasn't seen a reaction like this in 2yrs but it does happen. Jenna may be hospitalized for up to two weeks and I need to pray about whether to fly to Texas to help with the other three kids. Thanks so much, judyt -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> DAVEH: I understand that is common Christian belief.. But, I would think there is a reason the common beliefs evolved that way. I thought there might be a passage in the Bible that would persuade Christian thought to develop along that line of reasoning. DAVEH: Do you think the foreknowledge of God figures into the passage Slade originally quoted... As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. His students asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Yeshua answered, "Neither did this man sin, nor his parents; but, that the works of God might be revealed in him. (John 9:1-3) ..? To me, this seems like indirect evidence there was some cognition of a pre-mortal existence. I see absolutely no suggestion of pre-mortal existence in the above verse. I have read it many times, and have never in any way connected it with pre-mortal existence. Perhaps you admitted LDS bias is causing you to see evidence that does not exist in this verse. Did you interpret this verse this way yourself, or is it related to your LDS training? DAVEH: I assume you believe your Protestant God was once a man too, do you not? No, He was not. The aspect of the Trinity referred to as "the Son" became a man, was crucified, and was raised from the dead, but then I am talking about the real God, not the ficitious LDS god or LDS jesus. DAVEH: I'm not trying to quote LDS Scripture here to support my beliefs.as you know, that is not my purpose. I just wonder why you don't understand the pre-mortal spirit implication Jn 9:1-3 as I do. And, likewise, I wonder why you do. I see it as another verse you are using as a prooftext to attempt to support an LDS false belief, like the baptism of the dead verse, or the verse about "ye are gods", and myriad other contortions of scruipture taken out of context and bent to support JS's false prophecies and babbling. DAVEH: I don't understand why you think discussing your understanding of the nature of God is a waste of time, even if it does parallel my (LDS biased) belief. Please don't give this more than is due...the parallel is sketchy at best, bound only in the words used, not in their meaning, and not in any similarity of characters. If a Protestant wanted to discuss the nature of God, I would think you would not find that a waste of time. Is it just because I'm a Mormon that you don't want to condescend to my level to discuss God? I do not find discussing the nature of God a waste of time at all. I find comparing God or Jesus to a fictitious god and a fictitious jesus a waste of time. Let me lay out what I was trying to explain. I believe Jesus existed as a spirit being in the OT. His spirit body then became clothed in a body of flesh and blood for a brief span some 2000 years ago. At his death, the spirit and physical body departed, only to be reunited a short time later in a resurrected form of flesh and bones. I believe he continues to be a spirit being that is clothed with physical body of flesh and bones to this day. Now Perry, that is pretty much doctrinal LDS theology, to which I subscribe. From my discussions with other TTers in the past, I thought this is pretty much doctrinal thinking that is shared by many Protestants, and even independent thinkers such as yourself. Above you have described some of the characteristics of the real Jesus, but have assigned them to the LDS false jesus. Hijacking some of the real Jesus' characteristics does not make the LDS jesus any more real. DAVEH: I realize there are many things I believe with which you disagree. I'm not trying to tell you that I am right, and you are wrong. I'm just trying to figure out why you disagree. For some reason or other, Dave, no matter how much I try to describe it to you, you just don't get it. I believe this is because of your twisted use of scripture, and your belief in a different jesus, different god, and a different gospel than that taught in the BIble. Hey, if one starts out with the wrong premises, one always ends up with the wrong conclusions. Some things (such as my belief that Jesus' Heavenly Father has a physical body of flesh and bone) is very easy for me to understand why you don't accept it. So, there is really not a reason to discuss it, even if you were to bring it up in an effort to denigrate my beliefs. But, there are many things that seem pretty obvious to me as I read the Bible that make me wonder why you see them exactly opposite. Jn 9:1-3 is one of those passages. Perhaps my above explanation of the nature of God also fits into that realm, but I'm not sure.since you are reluctant to waste your time discussing it. David, I continually see you (as well as other LDS folks) read JS's babblings, then try to find scripture to support them. This always results in finding a scripture that contains some of the words in the JS babble, then takin
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Charles Perry Locke wrote: We consider Jesus to be one person of the Trinity, all of which are God. Angels are created beings distinct in nature from humans. They most likely pre-existed human creation, and humans are a unique creation apart from angels. Humans did not pre-exist their birth as spirits. DAVEH: That is the part that I'm trying to find out about your (and Slade's) belief. What is it that makes you think spirits could not have been created prior to mortality? There must be some passages in the Bible that lead you to that conclusion? Or.is it merely traditional Protestant dogma that has instilled such a belief? First, none of the churches that I have attended, no commentaries that I have read, and none of the teachers I have learned under ever even suggested that there may have been a spiritual existence prior to life. DAVEH: I understand that is common Christian belief.. But, I would think there is a reason the common beliefs evolved that way. I thought there might be a passage in the Bible that would persuade Christian thought to develop along that line of reasoning. This leads me to believe that it is not, and never has been, a common Christian belief. Second, I find no positive evidence, i.e., nowhere in the Bible where it is positively stated that there was no pre-existence of humans, but then again I find no positive statements iondicating that there is, either. I agree with Slades's comment that the foreknowledge of God accounts for any biblical statements that suggest a pre-existence to you. DAVEH: Do you think the foreknowledge of God figures into the passage Slade originally quoted... As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. His students asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Yeshua answered, "Neither did this man sin, nor his parents; but, that the works of God might be revealed in him. (John 9:1-3) ..? To me, this seems like indirect evidence there was some cognition of a pre-mortal existence. In LDS lore there seems to be only one type of being, which during it's existence may progress through several stages...spirit, angel, man, and god (I believe you call this "eternal progression"). This is like insect progression...egg, larva, pupa, and adult. The LDS jesus is not distinct in the LDS model. He is just another insect making his eternal march toward LDS godhood. DAVEH: You are mixing some truths as to what I believe with some inaccuracies. Your assumption that /Jesus is not distinct/ is incorrect. Jesus was not progressing toward Godhood.he was God prior to his mortal life. However, he consisted of only spirit form prior to his birth. Now, I find that interesting because of the LDS thought (paraphrasing) that what man is, god once was, what god is, man shall become. Wasn't the LDS god once a man, DAVEH: I assume you believe your Protestant God was once a man too, do you not? and his god (father) once a man, and his god (father) once a man, etc. DAVEH: Though it is not doctrinal, it is widely believed by many (most) LDS folks. Why did the LDS jesus get to circumvent this seemingly natural order of the LDs eternal progression of gods? DAVEH: He was the firstborn of the spirits in the pre-mortal existence. (I know that doesn't exactly answer your question in detail, but it is a significant occurrence, IMO.) You know, the Bible does not support any this. DAVEH: I didn't say it does. You were the one who brought it up. I'm not trying to quote LDS Scripture here to support my beliefs.as you know, that is not my purpose. I just wonder why you don't understand the pre-mortal spirit implication Jn 9:1-3 as I do. After his resurrection, he then consisted of a spirit body clothed with an exalted physical body of flesh and bone. From what I've learned on TT, I assume that is not too much different than what you might believe? Well, aside from the fact that we are trying to compare the fictional LDS jesus with the real Jesus, a comparison I find mainly a useless exercise and a waste of time, some of the words and thoughts do parallel each other, DAVEH: I don't understand why you think discussing your understanding of the nature of God is a waste of time, even if it does parallel my (LDS biased) belief. If a Protestant wanted to discuss the nature of God, I would think you would not find that a waste of time. Is it just because I'm a Mormon that you don't want to condescend to my level to discuss God? Let me lay out what I was trying to explain. I believe Jesus existed as a spirit being in the OT. His spirit body then became clothed in a body of flesh and blood for a brief span some 2000 years ago. At his death, the spirit and physical body departed, only to be reunited a short time later in a resurrected form of flesh and bones. I believe he continues to be a spirit being that is clothed with phy
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Charles Perry Locke wrote: Sorry to jump into your discussion, DaveH, DAVEH: No problem, Perry. I appreciate your viewpoint and comments. but I think something important needs to be pointed out with respect to the LDS view of Angels, Jesus, and humans. DAVEH wrote: If Jesus could pre-exist, why not others? Jer 1:4-5 seems evidential. And, Job (38:4-7) speaks of the morning stars and sons of God pre-existing. I presume most Protestants believe angels pre-existed. Of course, Paul (Eph 1:4-5) suggests our pre-mortal existence as well. So Slade..Is there anything in the Bible the precludes man's pre-mortal existence in the form of spirits? Christians do not consider Angels, Jesus, or humans to be of the same nature, or "stuff". We do not consider Jesus to be our literal spirit brother in the pre-existence, or to be the brother of the fallen angel Lucifer, as the LDS do. DAVEH: I understand that, and am not expecting you to believe as I do. I'm trying to figure out why you believe as you do. (I know.you've heard that before, but please bear with me on this for a bit.) We consider Jesus to be one person of the Trinity, all of which are God. Angels are created beings distinct in nature from humans. They most likely pre-existed human creation, and humans are a unique creation apart from angels. Humans did not pre-exist their birth as spirits. DAVEH: That is the part that I'm trying to find out about your (and Slade's) belief. What is it that makes you think spirits could not have been created prior to mortality? There must be some passages in the Bible that lead you to that conclusion? Or.is it merely traditional Protestant dogma that has instilled such a belief? First, none of the churches that I have attended, no commentaries that I have read, and none of the teachers I have learned under ever even suggested that there may have been a spiritual existence prior to life. This leads me to believe that it is not, and never has been, a common Christian belief. Second, I find no positive evidence, i.e., nowhere in the Bible where it is positively stated that there was no pre-existence of humans, but then again I find no positive statements iondicating that there is, either. I agree with Slades's comment that the foreknowledge of God accounts for any biblical statements that suggest a pre-existence to you. In LDS lore there seems to be only one type of being, which during it's existence may progress through several stages...spirit, angel, man, and god (I believe you call this "eternal progression"). This is like insect progression...egg, larva, pupa, and adult. The LDS jesus is not distinct in the LDS model. He is just another insect making his eternal march toward LDS godhood. DAVEH: You are mixing some truths as to what I believe with some inaccuracies. Your assumption that /Jesus is not distinct/ is incorrect. Jesus was not progressing toward Godhood.he was God prior to his mortal life. However, he consisted of only spirit form prior to his birth. Now, I find that interesting because of the LDS thought (paraphrasing) that what man is, god once was, what god is, man shall become. Wasn't the LDS god once a man, and his god (father) once a man, and his god (father) once a man, etc. Why did the LDS jesus get to circumvent this seemingly natural order of the LDs eternal progression of gods? You know, the Bible does not support any this. After his resurrection, he then consisted of a spirit body clothed with an exalted physical body of flesh and bone. From what I've learned on TT, I assume that is not too much different than what you might believe? Well, aside from the fact that we are trying to compare the fictional LDS jesus with the real Jesus, a comparison I find mainly a useless exercise and a waste of time, some of the words and thoughts do parallel each other, but I do not think spiritual reality is at all like the LDS think it is. BTW Perry..I have not forgotten our previous /quick and dead/ discussion. I've done a little studying of it, but need to do much more. It really is a topic that interests me, and I do intend to get back to it as I have time. I just don't feel knowledgeable at this point to discuss it much. Hey, whenever you get around to it. Let me know if you want off the hook. No problem. I have made my point, and if there were any readily available examples to support your interpretation I am sure they would have popped up pretty quickly. Did you get your interpretation from the Bible, or from some LDS dogma? Perry Sort of like insects...eggs, larvae, pupae, then adult insects. Perry -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned
RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
The thought here, Izzy, seems to be that there are only two covenants.. the "Old" and the "New." I think this is wrong. When God makes a covenant, it's a permanent thing. There are no "ifs." People speak of an Adamic covenant. Is that one gone now that we have the Noachide covenant? Is the Noachide covenant dead now that God made a covenant with Avraham? Is Avraham's covenant dead now that He gave a covenant to Moshe/Moses? Get my point? Please look up the words used for "new" in reference to "new covenant" in Jeremiah 31. Please know that it is the word "Rosh" which means to "make afresh." We celebrate Rosh Chodesh which is not a "new" moon, because it is the same old moon. It, instead, a "renewing moon..." a moon that is returning to full brightness... much like this "new covenant" (I say this because under the covenantal conditions of Jeremiah's Renewed covenant, Torah is a condition (it will be written on our hearts), Ezekiel tells us that the Spirit will be given so that we CAN obey Torah, and (according to Jeremiah) we will not have to go to our neighbor and say "Know YHVH" (i.e., evangelize) because we ALL will know YHVH. Therefore, according to Jeremiah 31 (and reiterated in Hebrews), we have not seen the absolute fulfillment of the "new Covenant." -- slade -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Tuesday, 29 June, 2004 07:19To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request I would love to hear Slade’s response to this post. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Actually, the person of God never changes but His administration does. Obviously. For example -- the fact that His original covenant is replaced by a new covenants haseverything to do with administration and nothing to do with the existence and/or personality of God
RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
DAVEH wrote: Thank you for your below response, Slade. However, would you be so kind as to explain what there is in the Bible that makes you think there is not a pre-mortal existence of our spirits? IOW.are there any passages that lead you to think our spirits did not exist prior to our birth? slade wrote: I have explained why I do not believe in the preexistence of the human spirit. I have given the burden of proof by my explanation of your proof texts (or whatever kind term is to be used). Therefore there is no reason for me to discuss the next question. -- slade -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of DaveSent: Tuesday, 29 June, 2004 00:32To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer RequestSlade Henson wrote: DAVEH: From my (LDS) perspective, I believe stories to which you are referring could be true (midrash (parable) stories of souls speaking with God before they're implanted in a body on earth) And, they would be further evidence of a pre-mortal existence of our spirits. I do not subscribe to that particular belief. I do not think the passage or any other OT/NT passage supports the belief either. DAVEH: If Jesus could pre-exist, why not others? Jer 1:4-5 seems evidential. And, Job (38:4-7) speaks of the morning stars and sons of God pre-existing. I presume most Protestants believe angels pre-existed. Of course, Paul (Eph 1:4-5) suggests our pre-mortal existence as well. So Slade..Is there anything in the Bible the precludes man's pre-mortal existence in the form of spirits? I believe Jesus preexists because He is the Holy One of Israel. All other passages you provide simply shows the sheer knowledge of God because He is able to see the future with perfect clarity. I believe these passages dictate this innate ability of YHVH. For Example, Jeremiah 1:4-5 speaks of God's foreknowledge.Job 38:4-7 is a set of rhetorical questions whose answers so clear that many miss them. Ephesians 1:4-5, again, speaks of God's foreknowledge. DAVEH: From that specific passage alone. What else do you think it could infer? Please explain how you came to that conclusion. I cannot see it. -- slade -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Dave HansenSent: Saturday, 26 June, 2004 23:10To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer RequestDAVEH: SladeI've always viewed this passage as good evidence the Jews at the time of Jesus believed in an existence before birth. How do you view the underlying message of this passage? Slade Henson wrote: As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. His students asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Yeshua answered, "Neither did this man sin, nor his parents; but, that the works of God might be revealed in him. (John 9:1-3) -- slade-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Yes I do. All I'm saying is that some diseases require Yeshua to say, "Be Healed." Some diseases require Yeshua to say, "Your sins are forgiven." Who are we to say which is required? A friend of mine recently discovered malignant cancer in her sinuses. Would anyone dare to say it's directly related to her malicious sin nature? Perhaps one would like to say her rebellion against God caused this sin? Personally I think it's my sin that's a partial cause. I think every time we deceive ourselves into thinking we're perfect, every time we [knowingly] rebel against God, every time a nasty/uncaring word or phrase comes out of our mouths or rolls off our typing fingers, we help my friend's cancer along. Every time we realize just how small/insignificant/imperfect/filthy we are before YHVH, every time we intentionally follow the/a commandment of YHVH, every time we say a kind word or phrase (especially when we really feel like sticking the knife in deep), we help her body fight that cancer. Perhaps that's simplistic and I'm not going to fight this theologically, but I do believe in the Hebrew ideal of Tikkun HaOlam (repairing the world). -- slade -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Tuesday, 29 June, 2004 07:19To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request Slade, You must admit that there are many people suffering from inherited physical or mental diseases, caused by genetic flaws? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade HensonSent: Monday, June 28, 2004 3:35 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request This, too, is a minor point of difference. While I agree with Scripture that an "UNdeserved curse goes NOwhere," I do not necessarily believe the exact opposite occurs every time. If so, none of us would exist this very day. I trust the words of Yeshua who said that the man's plight was not the direct result of anyone's sin (i.e., parents/fathers equals forbearers or forefathers in general). Let me ask you a question Judy If all A's are B's and all B's are C's, then all A's are C's... right? -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Sunday, 27 June, 2004 16:03To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request Hi Slade: Thank you for posting this scripture. I know a lot of people interpret Jesus' response to the disciples query to mean or to prove that sin and this man's blindness are unrelated. However, the scriptures teach that the "curse causeless does not light" (Prov 26:2) so there was definitely a cause even though Jesus did not choose to discuss it right then. It could have been grandparents, ggrandparents or gggrandparents. Jesus was wanting to focus on the works of God being revealed in the man that day rather than what caused his problem to begin with .. judyt From: "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. His students asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Yeshua answered, "Neither did this man sin, nor his parents; but, that the works of God might be revealed in him. (John 9:1-3) -- slade
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Some days you eat the bear, and some days the bear eats you. Either way, you got to call them like you see them. Terry Jonathan Hughes wrote: Terry, we haven’t always agreed but I want to personally thank you for coming forth on this issue. I appreciate it. Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 8:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request Judy Taylor wrote: I didn't make any rule about the 'curse lighting' Terry but it is in God's Word. In the exceptions you give it was Pharoah who hardened his own heart (I think it was 8 times) before God finally hardened it for good before which he had plenty of opportunities to go the other way. Nebuchadnessar was a pagan king who lifted himself up in pride. Neither were part of God's covenant people. In Joseph's case it was the jealousy of his own brothers that cause his stress and what they meant for evil God turned around and used for good. I know Calvins theology ascribes everything (both good and evil) to God making him responsible for both and Calvinism is the basis for what they call the Reformed faith. I've studied this for a long time and I don't see God making people sick for his glory ever. The scriptures clearly teach that sick people are oppressed by the devil. God is glorified when they are made well by His Word. === I did not say you made any rule. I said there are exceptions to rules. I am not talking about Calvin or reformed faith, and making a man blind is not evil when God does it. He is the potter. He has the right to use the clay to glorify Himself . You do not have to be one of God's covenant people, simply one of His creations in order to be useed. You have studied for a long time. You see the rule. Now you need to study more, 'til you see the exception to the rule. Jesus said very plainly, "This was not a payback for sin". To say otherwise is to change God's word. I don't think you would ever want to do that. Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Terry, we haven’t always agreed but I want to personally thank you for coming forth on this issue. I appreciate it. Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 8:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request Judy Taylor wrote: I didn't make any rule about the 'curse lighting' Terry but it is in God's Word. In the exceptions you give it was Pharoah who hardened his own heart (I think it was 8 times) before God finally hardened it for good before which he had plenty of opportunities to go the other way. Nebuchadnessar was a pagan king who lifted himself up in pride. Neither were part of God's covenant people. In Joseph's case it was the jealousy of his own brothers that cause his stress and what they meant for evil God turned around and used for good. I know Calvins theology ascribes everything (both good and evil) to God making him responsible for both and Calvinism is the basis for what they call the Reformed faith. I've studied this for a long time and I don't see God making people sick for his glory ever. The scriptures clearly teach that sick people are oppressed by the devil. God is glorified when they are made well by His Word. === I did not say you made any rule. I said there are exceptions to rules. I am not talking about Calvin or reformed faith, and making a man blind is not evil when God does it. He is the potter. He has the right to use the clay to glorify Himself . You do not have to be one of God's covenant people, simply one of His creations in order to be useed. You have studied for a long time. You see the rule. Now you need to study more, 'til you see the exception to the rule. Jesus said very plainly, "This was not a payback for sin". To say otherwise is to change God's word. I don't think you would ever want to do that. Terry
Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I did not say you made any rule. I said there are exceptions to rules. I am not talking about Calvin or reformed faith, and making a man blind is not evil when God does it. He is the potter. He has the right to use the clay to glorify Himself . You do not have to be one of God's covenant people, simply one of His creations in order to be useed. You have studied for a long time. You see the rule. Now you need to study more, 'til you see the exception to the rule. Jesus said very plainly, "This was not a payback for sin". To say otherwise is to change God's word. I don't think you would ever want to do that. 0.Terry judyt: It's not unscriptural to say that the Lord does it because Deut 28:28 reads "The Lord will smite you with madness and with blindness and with bewilderment of heart and you shall grope at noon as the blind man gropes in darkness and you shall not prosper in your ways, but you shall only be oppressed and robbed continually with none to save you" - However, this is the consequence of breaking covenant (healing is the children's bread). Nowhere in scripture can I find a precedent for the way some denominational people interpret John 9 and when they use it this way it is usually to defend some doctrine that is rooted in unbelief. Can you find another incident in scripture where God afflicted for His own glory? How does one take a stand, see disease as an enemy, and fight to be well and ATST believe that their ailment was sent by God to glorify Him? Jesus never ever called sickness and disease a blessing. His healing the blind man is what glorified God and these are the works we are to be doing "in His name" - That teaching is so subtle. No wonder the Church is so passive with regard to healing. Who wants to fight with God? James wrote "All GOOD gifts come from above from the Father of Lights in whom there is NO DEGREE of shadow or turning." God is never capricious. It is His will is for ALL to be saved and come to the knowledge of Truth; and for us to "prosper even as our soul prospers" (note that I am not talking about finances or stuff here). The fact that they will not is not of His making and neither is the proneness to sickness, plagues, and disease that afflicts humanity. Wake up Church!! Judy Taylor wrote: I didn't make any rule about the 'curse lighting' Terry but it is in God's Word. In the exceptions you give it was Pharoah who hardened his own heart (I think it was 8 times) before God finally hardened it for good before which he had plenty of opportunities to go the other way. Nebuchadnessar was a pagan king who lifted himself up in pride. Neither were part of God's covenant people. In Joseph's case it was the jealousy of his own brothers that cause his stress and what they meant for evil God turned around and used for good. I know Calvins theology ascribes everything (both good and evil) to God making him responsible for both and Calvinism is the basis for what they call the Reformed faith. I've studied this for a long time and I don't see God making people sick for his glory ever. The scriptures clearly teach that sick people are oppressed by the devil. God is glorified when they are made well by His Word.===
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Judy Taylor wrote: I didn't make any rule about the 'curse lighting' Terry but it is in God's Word. In the exceptions you give it was Pharoah who hardened his own heart (I think it was 8 times) before God finally hardened it for good before which he had plenty of opportunities to go the other way. Nebuchadnessar was a pagan king who lifted himself up in pride. Neither were part of God's covenant people. In Joseph's case it was the jealousy of his own brothers that cause his stress and what they meant for evil God turned around and used for good. I know Calvins theology ascribes everything (both good and evil) to God making him responsible for both and Calvinism is the basis for what they call the Reformed faith. I've studied this for a long time and I don't see God making people sick for his glory ever. The scriptures clearly teach that sick people are oppressed by the devil. God is glorified when they are made well by His Word. === I did not say you made any rule. I said there are exceptions to rules. I am not talking about Calvin or reformed faith, and making a man blind is not evil when God does it. He is the potter. He has the right to use the clay to glorify Himself . You do not have to be one of God's covenant people, simply one of His creations in order to be useed. You have studied for a long time. You see the rule. Now you need to study more, 'til you see the exception to the rule. Jesus said very plainly, "This was not a payback for sin". To say otherwise is to change God's word. I don't think you would ever want to do that. Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
I would love to hear Slade’s response to this post. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Actually, the person of God never changes but His administration does. Obviously. For example -- the fact that His original covenant is replaced by a new covenants has everything to do with administration and nothing to do with the existence and/or personality of God
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
In a message dated 6/28/2004 3:51:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: God Himself says that the sins of the fathers are visited upon the children unto the 4th and sometimes the 10th generation. When did His personality change? JudyT Actually, the person of God never changes but His administration does. Obviously. For example -- the fact that His original covenant is replaced by a new covenants has everything to do with administration and nothing to do with the existence and/or personality of God. I don't think the word "visit" has the meaning you have in mind, but be that as it may, this is an administrative decision. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
DAVEH: Thank you for your below response, Slade. However, would you
be so kind as to explain what there is in the Bible that makes you
think there is not a pre-mortal existence of our spirits? IOW.are
there any passages that lead you to think our spirits did not exist
prior to our birth?
Slade Henson wrote:
DAVEH: From my (LDS) perspective, I believe stories to which
you are referring could be true (midrash (parable) stories of
souls speaking with God before they're implanted in a body on earth) And,
they would be further evidence of a pre-mortal existence of our spirits.
I do not subscribe to that particular belief.
I do not think the passage or any other OT/NT passage supports the
belief either.
DAVEH: If Jesus could
pre-exist, why not others? Jer 1:4-5 seems evidential. And, Job
(38:4-7) speaks of the morning stars and sons of God pre-existing.
I presume most Protestants believe angels pre-existed. Of course, Paul
(Eph 1:4-5) suggests our pre-mortal existence as well. So
Slade..Is there anything in the Bible the precludes man's
pre-mortal existence in the form of spirits?
I believe Jesus preexists because He is the
Holy One of Israel. All other passages you provide simply shows the
sheer knowledge of God because He is able to see the future with
perfect clarity. I believe these passages dictate this innate ability
of YHVH. For Example, Jeremiah 1:4-5 speaks of God's foreknowledge.Job
38:4-7 is a set of rhetorical questions whose answers so clear that
many miss them. Ephesians 1:4-5, again, speaks of God's foreknowledge.
DAVEH: From that
specific passage alone. What else do you think it could infer?
Please explain how you came to that
conclusion. I cannot see it.
--
slade
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Dave Hansen
Sent: Saturday, 26 June, 2004 23:10
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
DAVEH: SladeI've always viewed this passage as good evidence the
Jews at the time of Jesus believed in an existence before birth. How
do you view the underlying message of this passage?
Slade Henson wrote:
As he passed by, he saw a man
blind from birth. His students asked
him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this
man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Yeshua answered, "Neither
did this man sin, nor his parents; but, that the works of God might be
revealed in him. (John 9:1-3)
-- slade
--
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain Five email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Charles Perry Locke wrote: Sorry to jump into your discussion, DaveH, DAVEH: No problem, Perry. I appreciate your viewpoint and comments. but I think something important needs to be pointed out with respect to the LDS view of Angels, Jesus, and humans. DAVEH wrote: If Jesus could pre-exist, why not others? Jer 1:4-5 seems evidential. And, Job (38:4-7) speaks of the morning stars and sons of God pre-existing. I presume most Protestants believe angels pre-existed. Of course, Paul (Eph 1:4-5) suggests our pre-mortal existence as well. So Slade..Is there anything in the Bible the precludes man's pre-mortal existence in the form of spirits? Christians do not consider Angels, Jesus, or humans to be of the same nature, or "stuff". We do not consider Jesus to be our literal spirit brother in the pre-existence, or to be the brother of the fallen angel Lucifer, as the LDS do. DAVEH: I understand that, and am not expecting you to believe as I do. I'm trying to figure out why you believe as you do. (I know.you've heard that before, but please bear with me on this for a bit.) We consider Jesus to be one person of the Trinity, all of which are God. Angels are created beings distinct in nature from humans. They most likely pre-existed human creation, and humans are a unique creation apart from angels. Humans did not pre-exist their birth as spirits. DAVEH: That is the part that I'm trying to find out about your (and Slade's) belief. What is it that makes you think spirits could not have been created prior to mortality? There must be some passages in the Bible that lead you to that conclusion? Or.is it merely traditional Protestant dogma that has instilled such a belief? In LDS lore there seems to be only one type of being, which during it's existence may progress through several stages...spirit, angel, man, and god (I believe you call this "eternal progression"). This is like insect progression...egg, larva, pupa, and adult. The LDS jesus is not distinct in the LDS model. He is just another insect making his eternal march toward LDS godhood. DAVEH: You are mixing some truths as to what I believe with some inaccuracies. Your assumption that Jesus is not distinct is incorrect. Jesus was not progressing toward Godhood.he was God prior to his mortal life. However, he consisted of only spirit form prior to his birth. After his resurrection, he then consisted of a spirit body clothed with an exalted physical body of flesh and bone. >From what I've learned on TT, I assume that is not too much different than what you might believe? BTW Perry..I have not forgotten our previous quick and dead discussion. I've done a little studying of it, but need to do much more. It really is a topic that interests me, and I do intend to get back to it as I have time. I just don't feel knowledgeable at this point to discuss it much. Perry Sort of like insects...eggs, larvae, pupae, then adult insects. Perry -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Sorry to jump into your discussion, DaveH, but I think something important needs to be pointed out with respect to the LDS view of Angels, Jesus, and humans. DAVEH wrote: If Jesus could pre-exist, why not others? Jer 1:4-5 seems evidential. And, Job (38:4-7) speaks of the morning stars and sons of God pre-existing. I presume most Protestants believe angels pre-existed. Of course, Paul (Eph 1:4-5) suggests our pre-mortal existence as well. So Slade..Is there anything in the Bible the precludes man's pre-mortal existence in the form of spirits? Christians do not consider Angels, Jesus, or humans to be of the same nature, or "stuff". We do not consider Jesus to be our literal spirit brother in the pre-existence, or to be the brother of the fallen angel Lucifer, as the LDS do. We consider Jesus to be one person of the Trinity, all of which are God. Angels are created beings distinct in nature from humans. They most likely pre-existed human creation, and humans are a unique creation apart from angels. Humans did not pre-exist their birth as spirits. In LDS lore there seems to be only one type of being, which during it's existence may progress through several stages...spirit, angel, man, and god (I believe you call this "eternal progression"). This is like insect progression...egg, larva, pupa, and adult. The LDS jesus is not distinct in the LDS model. He is just another insect making his eternal march toward LDS godhood. Perry Sort of like insects...eggs, larvae, pupae, then adult insects. Perry -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
DAVEH: From my (LDS) perspective, I believe stories to which you are referring could be true (midrash (parable) stories of souls speaking with God before they're implanted in a body on earth) And, they would be further evidence of a pre-mortal existence of our spirits. I do not subscribe to that particular belief. I do not think the passage or any other OT/NT passage supports the belief either. DAVEH: If Jesus could pre-exist, why not others? Jer 1:4-5 seems evidential. And, Job (38:4-7) speaks of the morning stars and sons of God pre-existing. I presume most Protestants believe angels pre-existed. Of course, Paul (Eph 1:4-5) suggests our pre-mortal existence as well. So Slade..Is there anything in the Bible the precludes man's pre-mortal existence in the form of spirits? I believe Jesus preexists because He is the Holy One of Israel. All other passages you provide simply shows the sheer knowledge of God because He is able to see the future with perfect clarity. I believe these passages dictate this innate ability of YHVH. For Example, Jeremiah 1:4-5 speaks of God's foreknowledge.Job 38:4-7 is a set of rhetorical questions whose answers so clear that many miss them. Ephesians 1:4-5, again, speaks of God's foreknowledge. DAVEH: From that specific passage alone. What else do you think it could infer? Please explain how you came to that conclusion. I cannot see it. -- slade -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Dave HansenSent: Saturday, 26 June, 2004 23:10To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer RequestDAVEH: SladeI've always viewed this passage as good evidence the Jews at the time of Jesus believed in an existence before birth. How do you view the underlying message of this passage? Slade Henson wrote: As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. His students asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Yeshua answered, "Neither did this man sin, nor his parents; but, that the works of God might be revealed in him. (John 9:1-3) -- slade
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Judy Taylor wrote: Can you show me in the scriptures why this belief is aberrant Lance? Are you one of those who believe the disciples asking this question were 'ignorant' and didn't know any better? Arn't you the one who keeps saying that I an the victim of enlightenment thinking? God Himself says that the sins of the fathers are visited upon the children unto the 4th and sometimes the 10th generation. When did His personality change? I think it much sadder to be deceived by doctrines that do not conform one to godliness. You might want to consider, Judy, that there are exceptions to the rule. Sickness came about because of sin, and what you say above is almost always true, but there are instances where God used an individual for His own purposes. He hardened pharoah's heart. He made Nebuchadnessar to eat grass like a cow, He had Joseph put into captivity for years, all for His own purpose. I suggest that He did the same with this blind man. In fact, from what Jesus said, I think there can be no doubt about it. He was used to glorify his creator, and was rewarded by being given his sight. After being blind from birth, I am sure he was more thankful to God for his sight than most of us are. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
In a message dated 6/28/2004 1:34:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Let me try that again If all A's are B's and all B's are C's, then all C's are A's... right? This was not true the last time I spoke with my ex-wife. But, I am not sure what the conclusion of that discussion was. Maybe it had something to do with outer Mongolia. Just ignore me. I haven't bathed yet. JD
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Judy:Sad to observe that you actually believe this. How utterly aberrant. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 27, 2004 16:03 Subject: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request Hi Slade: Thank you for posting this scripture. I know a lot of people interpret Jesus' response to the disciples query to mean or to prove that sin and this man's blindness are unrelated. However, the scriptures teach that the "curse causeless does not light" (Prov 26:2) so there was definitely a cause even though Jesus did not choose to discuss it right then. It could have been grandparents, ggrandparents or gggrandparents. Jesus was wanting to focus on the works of God being revealed in the man that day rather than what caused his problem to begin with .. judyt From: "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. His students asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Yeshua answered, "Neither did this man sin, nor his parents; but, that the works of God might be revealed in him. (John 9:1-3) -- slade -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Friday, 25 June, 2004 09:11To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request I have no idea Chris; our family are believers who are working through our issues also. However, we do know where to go for help in time of need and we are grateful for those willing to encourage and pray.
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Slade Henson wrote: There are many midrash (parable) stories of souls speaking with God before they're implanted in a body on earth, but I've always understood those stories to tell a greater theological or moral story... but that the story was not factual. DAVEH: From my (LDS) perspective, I believe stories to which you are referring could be trueAnd, they would be further evidence of a pre-mortal existence of our spirits. I know of no one who dogmatically believes in the preexistence of the soul. >From what I understand, the only preexisting is the Holy One of Israel. DAVEH: If Jesus could pre-exist, why not others? Jer 1:4-5 seems evidential. And, Job (38:4-7) speaks of the morning stars and sons of God pre-existing. I presume most Protestants believe angels pre-existed. Of course, Paul (Eph 1:4-5) suggests our pre-mortal existence as well. So Slade..Is there anything in the Bible the precludes man's pre-mortal existence in the form of spirits? Can I ask where you get the impression that Jewish sages in antiquity believed this? DAVEH: From that specific passage alone. What else do you think it could infer? This might be an interesting study. -- slade -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Dave Hansen Sent: Saturday, 26 June, 2004 23:10 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request DAVEH: SladeI've always viewed this passage as good evidence the Jews at the time of Jesus believed in an existence before birth. How do you view the underlying message of this passage? Slade Henson wrote: As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. His students asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Yeshua answered, "Neither did this man sin, nor his parents; but, that the works of God might be revealed in him. (John 9:1-3) -- slade -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Let me try that again If all A's are B's and all B's are C's, then all C's are A's... right?
RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
This, too, is a minor point of difference. While I agree with Scripture that an "UNdeserved curse goes NOwhere," I do not necessarily believe the exact opposite occurs every time. If so, none of us would exist this very day. I trust the words of Yeshua who said that the man's plight was not the direct result of anyone's sin (i.e., parents/fathers equals forbearers or forefathers in general). Let me ask you a question Judy If all A's are B's and all B's are C's, then all A's are C's... right? -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Sunday, 27 June, 2004 16:03To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request Hi Slade: Thank you for posting this scripture. I know a lot of people interpret Jesus' response to the disciples query to mean or to prove that sin and this man's blindness are unrelated. However, the scriptures teach that the "curse causeless does not light" (Prov 26:2) so there was definitely a cause even though Jesus did not choose to discuss it right then. It could have been grandparents, ggrandparents or gggrandparents. Jesus was wanting to focus on the works of God being revealed in the man that day rather than what caused his problem to begin with .. judyt From: "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. His students asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Yeshua answered, "Neither did this man sin, nor his parents; but, that the works of God might be revealed in him. (John 9:1-3) -- slade
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Judy, it seems great to me that you have friends whom you have never met praying for you and your Jenna. I don't doubt that these prayers are a fervent as those belonging to your personal friends and congregation. God will bless John In a message dated 6/26/2004 1:36:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thank you Bill and all: We had a bad storm yesterday with thunder, lightning, and some tornadoes south of us which zapped our phone line. I am at our daughter's house now using Juno webmail, they say the repairman will be out tomorrow between 8-5pm. Jenna has been discharged from the hospital, after receiving one unit of blood. The bad news is that she definitely has leukemia but my daughter tells me the good news is that it is ALL which is the type that 70% of children who get leukemia have so the medical people are used to dealing with it. They will fly to Austin tomorrow and some friends are coming in from Austin to drive their van back. The two older children are coming to VA with our youngest daughter to spend some time with us so their parents can focus on getting Jenna's treatments started. She will be in hospital for 7 days and the chemotherapy is supposed to be for 2-3yrs. Jenna is definitely not happy about the prospect of another hospital stay and she is upset because she doesn't get to come here with her brother and sister. She said they put a straw in her arm and it hurt when they took it off. I wasn't thinking straight yesterday and need to correct a couple of points. Jenna is 4yrs old and the drive from Austin to Orlando is 19hrs. Our youngest daughter says that the reality of their situation is just beginning to hit her sister. Thank you so much for praying --
RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
There are many midrash (parable) stories of souls speaking with God before they're implanted in a body on earth, but I've always understood those stories to tell a greater theological or moral story... but that the story was not factual. I know of no one who dogmatically believes in the preexistence of the soul. >From what I understand, the only preexisting is the Holy One of Israel. Can I ask where you get the impression that Jewish sages in antiquity believed this? This might be an interesting study. -- slade -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Dave HansenSent: Saturday, 26 June, 2004 23:10To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer RequestDAVEH: SladeI've always viewed this passage as good evidence the Jews at the time of Jesus believed in an existence before birth. How do you view the underlying message of this passage? Slade Henson wrote: As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. His students asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Yeshua answered, "Neither did this man sin, nor his parents; but, that the works of God might be revealed in him. (John 9:1-3) -- slade -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
DAVEH: SladeI've always viewed this passage as good evidence the Jews at the time of Jesus believed in an existence before birth. How do you view the underlying message of this passage? Slade Henson wrote: As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. His students asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Yeshua answered, "Neither did this man sin, nor his parents; but, that the works of God might be revealed in him. (John 9:1-3) -- slade -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Thank you Bill and all: We had a bad storm yesterday with thunder, lightning, and some tornadoes south of us which zapped our phone line. I am at our daughter's house now using Juno webmail, they say the repairman will be out tomorrow between 8-5pm. Jenna has been discharged from the hospital, after receiving one unit of blood. The bad news is that she definitely has leukemia but my daughter tells me the good news is that it is ALL which is the type that 70% of children who get leukemia have so the medical people are used to dealing with it. They will fly to Austin tomorrow and some friends are coming in from Austin to drive their van back. The two older children are coming to VA with our youngest daughter to spend some time with us so their parents can focus on getting Jenna's treatments started. She will be in hospital for 7 days and the chemotherapy is supposed to be for 2-3yrs. Jenna is definitely not happy about the prospect of another hospital stay and she is upset because she doesn't get to come here with her brother and sister. She said they put a straw in her arm and it hurt when they took it off. I wasn't thinking straight yesterday and need to correct a couple of points. Jenna is 4yrs old and the drive from Austin to Orlando is 19hrs. Our youngest daughter says that the reality of their situation is just beginning to hit her sister. Thank you so much for praying -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Hey Judy, Is there any news on your grandaughter. We're all praying for her and the family. I am terribly sorry for all they\you must be going through. Our Prayers, Bill -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. His students asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Yeshua answered, "Neither did this man sin, nor his parents; but, that the works of God might be revealed in him. (John 9:1-3) -- slade -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Friday, 25 June, 2004 09:11To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request I have no idea Chris; our family are believers who are working through our issues also. However, we do know where to go for help in time of need and we are grateful for those willing to encourage and pray.
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
In a message dated 6/25/2004 6:19:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What sin could have brought such a thing on a 3 year old? I going to take a wild guess and say "none." More than likely , there is a medical reason for Jenna's illness. If sin is involved, it is the sin of Adam. John
RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Chris, I must have missed that—would you kindly provide the scriptural admonition against having a blood TRANSFUSION??? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Barr Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 12:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request \o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !! They believe it is leukemia and Jenna was to have a blood transfusion last night. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor Sent: 06/25/2004 8:11 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request ... we are grateful for those willing to encourage and pray. I encourage obedience to The Word ... They believe it is leukemia and Jenna was to have a blood transfusion last night. NO BLOOD -- and that's not just Old Testament. It's SO important that it was specially spelled out in Acts 15 especially for new believers. You are quick to judge me about supplements when I never introduced the subject. I only addressed GOOD ... no check that ... GREAT and E-N-C-O-U-R-A-G-I-N-G info that believers desperately need (Hosea 4:6) that is completely in accordance with Scripture and you brought up (and shot down) supplements. Now you are talking about blood transfusions which is not only UN-Scriptural but for which there is NO NEED anyway even if Scripture did not identify it as ABOMINATION. Blood is about THE MOST UNNECESSARY of ALL supplements. Praying also ... Ahava b' YahShua Baruch YHVH, Bro. Chris a servant of YHVH - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 06/25/2004 8:11 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request I have no idea Chris; our family are believers who are working through our issues also. However, we do know where to go for help in time of need and we are grateful for those willing to encourage and pray. From: "Chris Barr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> \o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !! What sin could have brought such a thing on a 3 year old? Ahava b' YahShua Baruch YHVH, Bro. Chris a servant of YHVH
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
In a message dated 6/25/2004 3:21:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Would those of you who have a heart for prayer please put our 3yr old grandaughter Jenna on your list. Our TX family have been in Orlando since Monday on vacation - they noticed Jenna was lethargic and her color wasn't good. Yesterday they took her to a Dr. who did blood work and called Brad on his cell phone to say that he wanted Jenna admitted to the Arnold Palmer Medical Center there. They believe it is leukemia and Jenna was to have a blood transfusion last night. This is such a shock to all of us Jenna is a sweet and loving child who ppl are drawn to because of her personality. While in TX I went to their Church and when she walked in so many of the teens said "Hi Jenna!" She loves to sing and once I was attempting to sing a Veggie Tale song with her that went "God has given the land to us" and Jenna interrupted me saying "No Grandma, it's the Yord" I can't count the times she said "I love you Grandma" to me when we were there last month. Our daughter who is a RN is still hopeful that it might be a virus - she and Jenna will fly back to Austin TX today for the bone marrow tests while Brad and the other three children start on the long (52hr) drive, they have had to cut their vacation short and so will our 3rd daughter who flew down from here yesterday to share the fun at Disney. I'm believing that God will use this too for His purpose in our lives, Thank you so much and the Lord Bless you all, Judyt No doubt, like so many others on this list, I prayed while reading your post. And my wife and I will keep Jenna in our prayers as well. God bless and never allow us to misunderstand Your purposes and pleasures. John
RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Judy, I hate to hear this awful scary news, but trust that the Lord has a plan for His glory. I pray the Lord will put Jenna on my mind often so I can keep her lifted in prayer constantly. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 4:21 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request Would those of you who have a heart for prayer please put our 3yr old grandaughter Jenna on your list. Our TX family have been in Orlando since Monday on vacation - they noticed Jenna was lethargic and her color wasn't good. Yesterday they took her to a Dr. who did blood work and called Brad on his cell phone to say that he wanted Jenna admitted to the Arnold Palmer Medical Center there. They believe it is leukemia and Jenna was to have a blood transfusion last night. This is such a shock to all of us Jenna is a sweet and loving child who ppl are drawn to because of her personality. While in TX I went to their Church and when she walked in so many of the teens said "Hi Jenna!" She loves to sing and once I was attempting to sing a Veggie Tale song with her that went "God has given the land to us" and Jenna interrupted me saying "No Grandma, it's the Yord" I can't count the times she said "I love you Grandma" to me when we were there last month. Our daughter who is a RN is still hopeful that it might be a virus - she and Jenna will fly back to Austin TX today for the bone marrow tests while Brad and the other three children start on the long (52hr) drive, they have had to cut their vacation short and so will our 3rd daughter who flew down from here yesterday to share the fun at Disney. I'm believing that God will use this too for His purpose in our lives, Thank you so much and the Lord Bless you all, Judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
\o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !! They believe it is leukemia and Jenna was to have a blood transfusion last night. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor Sent: 06/25/2004 8:11 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request ... we are grateful for those willing to encourage and pray. I encourage obedience to The Word ... They believe it is leukemia and Jenna was to have a blood transfusion last night. NO BLOOD -- and that's not just Old Testament. It's SO important that it was specially spelled out in Acts 15 especially for new believers. You are quick to judge me about supplements when I never introduced the subject. I only addressed GOOD ... no check that ... GREAT and E-N-C-O-U-R-A-G-I-N-G info that believers desperately need (Hosea 4:6) that is completely in accordance with Scripture and you brought up (and shot down) supplements. Now you are talking about blood transfusions which is not only UN-Scriptural but for which there is NO NEED anyway even if Scripture did not identify it as ABOMINATION. Blood is about THE MOST UNNECESSARY of ALL supplements. Praying also ... Ahava b' YahShua Baruch YHVH, Bro. Chris a servant of YHVH - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 06/25/2004 8:11 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request I have no idea Chris; our family are believers who are working through our issues also. However, we do know where to go for help in time of need and we are grateful for those willing to encourage and pray.From: "Chris Barr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>\o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !! What sin could have brought such a thing on a 3 year old? Ahava b' YahShuaBaruch YHVH, Bro. Chrisa servant of YHVH
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Chris Barr wrote: If you will check your Bible Chris, I believe you will find that it was the first sin that did the damage. From then on, bad things happened to good people. Terry \o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !! What sin could have brought such a thing on a 3 year old? Ahava b' YahShua Baruch YHVH, Bro. Chris a servant of YHVH
RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Sure thing, Judy. A 52 hour drive? It should be less than 20. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Friday, 25 June, 2004 06:21To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request Would those of you who have a heart for prayer please put our 3yr old grandaughter Jenna on your list. Our TX family have been in Orlando since Monday on vacation - they noticed Jenna was lethargic and her color wasn't good. Yesterday they took her to a Dr. who did blood work and called Brad on his cell phone to say that he wanted Jenna admitted to the Arnold Palmer Medical Center there. They believe it is leukemia and Jenna was to have a blood transfusion last night. This is such a shock to all of us Jenna is a sweet and loving child who ppl are drawn to because of her personality. While in TX I went to their Church and when she walked in so many of the teens said "Hi Jenna!" She loves to sing and once I was attempting to sing a Veggie Tale song with her that went "God has given the land to us" and Jenna interrupted me saying "No Grandma, it's the Yord" I can't count the times she said "I love you Grandma" to me when we were there last month. Our daughter who is a RN is still hopeful that it might be a virus - she and Jenna will fly back to Austin TX today for the bone marrow tests while Brad and the other three children start on the long (52hr) drive, they have had to cut their vacation short and so will our 3rd daughter who flew down from here yesterday to share the fun at Disney. I'm believing that God will use this too for His purpose in our lives, Thank you so much and the Lord Bless you all, Judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
Amen here! Lance - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 25, 2004 08:17 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request You can count on our prayers Judy. Keep us posted.TerryJudy Taylor wrote: Would those of you who have a heart for prayer please put our 3yr old grandaughter Jenna on your list. Our TX family have been in Orlando since Monday on vacation - they noticed Jenna was lethargic and her color wasn't good. Yesterday they took her to a Dr. who did blood work and called Brad on his cell phone to say that he wanted Jenna admitted to the Arnold Palmer Medical Center there. They believe it is leukemia and Jenna was to have a blood transfusion last night. This is such a shock to all of us Jenna is a sweet and loving child who ppl are drawn to because of her personality. While in TX I went to their Church and when she walked in so many of the teens said "Hi Jenna!" She loves to sing and once I was attempting to sing a Veggie Tale song with her that went "God has given the land to us" and Jenna interrupted me saying "No Grandma, it's the Yord" I can't count the times she said "I love you Grandma" to me when we were there last month. Our daughter who is a RN is still hopeful that it might be a virus - she and Jenna will fly back to Austin TX today for the bone marrow tests while Brad and the other three children start on the long (52hr) drive, they have had to cut their vacation short and so will our 3rd daughter who flew down from here yesterday to share the fun at Disney. I'm believing that God will use this too for His purpose in our lives, Thank you so much and the Lord Bless you all, Judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
\o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !! What sin could have brought such a thing on a 3 year old? Ahava b' YahShua Baruch YHVH, Bro. Chris a servant of YHVH
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer Request
You can count on our prayers Judy. Keep us posted. Terry Judy Taylor wrote: Would those of you who have a heart for prayer please put our 3yr old grandaughter Jenna on your list. Our TX family have been in Orlando since Monday on vacation - they noticed Jenna was lethargic and her color wasn't good. Yesterday they took her to a Dr. who did blood work and called Brad on his cell phone to say that he wanted Jenna admitted to the Arnold Palmer Medical Center there. They believe it is leukemia and Jenna was to have a blood transfusion last night. This is such a shock to all of us Jenna is a sweet and loving child who ppl are drawn to because of her personality. While in TX I went to their Church and when she walked in so many of the teens said "Hi Jenna!" She loves to sing and once I was attempting to sing a Veggie Tale song with her that went "God has given the land to us" and Jenna interrupted me saying "No Grandma, it's the Yord" I can't count the times she said "I love you Grandma" to me when we were there last month. Our daughter who is a RN is still hopeful that it might be a virus - she and Jenna will fly back to Austin TX today for the bone marrow tests while Brad and the other three children start on the long (52hr) drive, they have had to cut their vacation short and so will our 3rd daughter who flew down from here yesterday to share the fun at Disney. I'm believing that God will use this too for His purpose in our lives, Thank you so much and the Lord Bless you all, Judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer request
In a message dated 5/25/2004 8:55:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: He has shown me that I should realize that every trial and tribulation that He allows (not sends, necessarily, but allows) is for a purpose: (1) to test my faith, (2) to refine and strengthen me, and ultimately to (3) bring glory to Jesus Christ. Amen and amen. John
RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer request/Taking Off
trophy for Jesus! Life is a test; it is only a test. We can use it to glorify Him or the devil—our choice. I choose to glorify Jesus, by His strength and His power and His Spirit, amen. When I am weak, HE is strong. Praise the Name of Jesus! Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 5:45 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer request I certainly will pray. Keep us posted. Laura
RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer request
Shirley was admitted for dehydration, her contractions stopped, and she is improving. Thank you for the prayers; don’t stop. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 5:45 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer request I certainly will pray. Keep us posted. Laura
RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer request
Thanks to you all for your prayers. I have not yet heard anything back from them, but assume no news is good news. I try not to call there (Georgia) in case Shirley has had an opportunity to get a few moments of sleep. I received peace about it early this morning, that all will be well. Keep those prayers coming if you think of her! This brings to mind what I think is the greatest lesson the Lord has taught me in the past few years. He has shown me that I should realize that every trial and tribulation that He allows (not sends, necessarily, but allows) is for a purpose: (1) to test my faith, (2) to refine and strengthen me, and ultimately to (3) bring glory to Jesus Christ. The only way I can turn satan’s attacks into glory to Jesus is by (1) accepting that the Lord has allowed this for a greater good, (2) walking in faith, believing this, and (3) thanking Him for loving me enough to discipline/refine/strengthen me, and purify me from any sin in my own life. I was always taught by the church the Job was just an Old Testament rarity. But the Lord has shown me that Job is a pattern for everyone who, like Job, walks in righteousness. Satan will ask to sift us, and the Lord will give him permission, at one point or another (probably many times) in our lives. Everyone in this world will suffer. We who are in Christ have the privilege of meaningful suffering—for our ultimate purification, and His ultimate Glory. Now when He allows or sends suffering into my life I subject myself to His loving hand, fall on my face before Him, and thank Him that He loves me enough to discipline me as a loving Father disciplines His child, or as a Father who is teaching me to walk in faith to turn the arrows of satan into trophies for the glory of Christ. Every temptation, attack, or trail that satan sends into my life is a wonderful opportunity to turn that evil thing into a trophy for Jesus! Life is a test; it is only a test. We can use it to glorify Him or the devil—our choice. I choose to glorify Jesus, by His strength and His power and His Spirit, amen. When I am weak, HE is strong. Praise the Name of Jesus! Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 5:45 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer request I certainly will pray. Keep us posted. Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer request
I certainly will pray. Keep us posted. Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer request.
In a message dated 3/28/2004 1:11:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Growth at the expense of Truth is not real growth it is simply more Error! No kidding.
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer request.
Growth at the expense of Truth is not real growth it is simply more Error![EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/28/2004 4:31:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: When Jesus spoke of unity and when Paul wrote of reconciliation they were both speaking of unifying around truth and the only way we are reconciled to God is to agree with Him by first accepting and then walking in His Truth. This logically means that you have never and will never change your mind about any doctrinal position you have -- that would mean that you had accepted 'false" doctrine. You, of course, fantacize that you are full grown as a child of God. There is no room for growth in YOUR gospel because "growth" demands that we are in error. John Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer request.
Judy writes > "If you love me you will do what I say" that's [Jesus'] definition of love. Maybe. Or maybe its a consequence of loving him, and out-working of love itself. Maybe we should look a little deeper for our "definition." Bill Taylor - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 5:29 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Prayer request. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 3/27/2004 10:37:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine: I think TT is neither of the devil nor of God. It is nothing more nor less than the summation of its parts--individuals all coming from different backgrounds and seeking to reconcile differences. Some of us listen, others just expect to be listened to. Egos play a major role on TT, I believe. jt: Ego being an attribute of the unregenerate flesh nature - interesting... john: Exactly. I especially like the "reconcile differences" notion. Christ's only concern for his 20th century disciples (John 17) was for unity. Ours is a ministry of "reconciliation" as Paul says. jt: When Jesus spoke of unity and when Paul wrote of reconciliation they were both speaking of unifying around truth and the only way we are reconciled to God is to agree with Him by first accepting and then walking in His Truth. john: My mother-in-law is Mormon. She was born into that faith. She will always be there. She would be afraid to leave. Status quo gives her the sense of security that she needs. jt: I find it sad that you have no hope for a change in direction for her. john: BUT, we have grown very close. She loves Billy Graham and she loves the Lord. jt: A lot of ppl like Billy Graham but how can one love the Lord and ATST reject his Word? He said in his own words "If you love me you will do what I say" that's his definition of love. john: The really great thing about Jesus is that He is not a Baptist, Catholic, and et al. I once spoke of praying for you, Blaine. I still do that. And the prayer is this: that you truly appreciate this salvation by faith apart from being right about everything and that the filling of God's spirit be the kind of experience it was intended to be. jt: Are you saying that Blaine is a "saved" person John and that the Mormon experiences of "burning bosom" and their temple ceremonies are acceptable with God? No wonder the Mormon boys stay confused about what protestant Christianity represents. john: Anyway, some of your observation are equally as thoughtful as Issy's, BillT, Miller's, Lance, Terry and so on. I truly believe this is a great group. God bless and good night. John Smithson
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer request.
In a message dated 3/28/2004 4:31:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: When Jesus spoke of unity and when Paul wrote of reconciliation they were both speaking of unifying around truth and the only way we are reconciled to God is to agree with Him by first accepting and then walking in His Truth. This logically means that you have never and will never change your mind about any doctrinal position you have -- that would mean that you had accepted 'false" doctrine. You, of course, fantacize that you are full grown as a child of God. There is no room for growth in YOUR gospel because "growth" demands that we are in error. John
RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer request.
Blaine, I draw the line at an outright brawl. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Blaine Borrowman Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 12:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer request. Blaine: I think TT is neither of the devil nor of God. It is nothing more nor less than the summation of its parts--individuals all coming from different backgrounds and seeking to reconcile differences. Some of us listen, others just expect to be listened to. Egos play a major role on TT, I believe. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 8:12 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Prayer request. Dear TruthTalkers, I suggest we spend the rest of this day praying for TruthTalk, and doing spiritual warfare against demonic spirits being sent to cause contention, strife, rudeness and accusations. There is something happening here to try to take our eyes off of Jesus Christ and His glory. May the Lord rebuke every demonic spirit and glorify Himself. TruthTalk belongs to the Lord, and not to the devil, in the name of Jesus. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer request.
In a message dated 3/27/2004 10:37:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine: I think TT is neither of the devil nor of God. It is nothing more nor less than the summation of its parts--individuals all coming from different backgrounds and seeking to reconcile differences. Some of us listen, others just expect to be listened to. Egos play a major role on TT, I believe. Exactly. I especially like the "reconcile differences" notion. Christ's only concern for his 20th century disciples (John 17) was for unity. Ours is a ministry of "reconciliation" as Paul says. My mother-in-law is Mormon. She was born into that faith. She will always be there. She would be afraid to leave. Status quo gives her the sense of security that she needs. BUT, we have grown very close. She loves Billy Graham and she loves the Lord. The really great thing about Jesus is that He is not a Baptist, Catholic, and et al. I once spoke of praying for you, Blaine. I still do that. And the prayer is this: that you truly appreciate this salvation by faith apart from being right about everything and that the filling of God's spirit be the kind of experience it was intended to be. Anyway, some of your observation are equally as thoughtful as Issy's, BillT, Miller's, Lance, Terry and so on. I truly believe this is a great group. God bless and good night. John Smithson
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer request.
Blaine: I think TT is neither of the devil nor of God. It is nothing more nor less than the summation of its parts--individuals all coming from different backgrounds and seeking to reconcile differences. Some of us listen, others just expect to be listened to. Egos play a major role on TT, I believe. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 8:12 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Prayer request. Dear TruthTalkers, I suggest we spend the rest of this day praying for TruthTalk, and doing spiritual warfare against demonic spirits being sent to cause contention, strife, rudeness and accusations. There is something happening here to try to take our eyes off of Jesus Christ and His glory. May the Lord rebuke every demonic spirit and glorify Himself. TruthTalk belongs to the Lord, and not to the devil, in the name of Jesus. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer request.
Truth Talk thou art loosed![EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/27/2004 7:14:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear TruthTalkers, I suggest we spend the rest of this day praying for TruthTalk, and doing spiritual warfare against demonic spirits being sent to cause contention, strife, rudeness and accusations. There is something happening here to try to take our eyes off of Jesus Christ and His glory. May the Lord rebuke every demonic spirit and glorify Himself. TruthTalk belongs to the Lord, and not to the devil, in the name of Jesus. Izzy Agreed. But let's not allow our emotions to get the best of us (mostly I am talking to me). Judy and Kevin and G and whoever -- well if they don't want to be either civil or stay on track, they can be ignored and the list survives. Grace to us all John Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer request.
In a message dated 3/27/2004 7:14:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear TruthTalkers, I suggest we spend the rest of this day praying for TruthTalk, and doing spiritual warfare against demonic spirits being sent to cause contention, strife, rudeness and accusations. There is something happening here to try to take our eyes off of Jesus Christ and His glory. May the Lord rebuke every demonic spirit and glorify Himself. TruthTalk belongs to the Lord, and not to the devil, in the name of Jesus. Izzy Agreed. But let's not allow our emotions to get the best of us (mostly I am talking to me). Judy and Kevin and G and whoever -- well if they don't want to be either civil or stay on track, they can be ignored and the list survives. Grace to us all John
RE: [TruthTalk] Prayer request.
PS I also suggest that we pray for David Miller and his family today. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 9:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] Prayer request. Dear TruthTalkers, I suggest we spend the rest of this day praying for TruthTalk, and doing spiritual warfare against demonic spirits being sent to cause contention, strife, rudeness and accusations. There is something happening here to try to take our eyes off of Jesus Christ and His glory. May the Lord rebuke every demonic spirit and glorify Himself. TruthTalk belongs to the Lord, and not to the devil, in the name of Jesus. Izzy
