Re: [Tutor] Set Reply-To field to Tutor@python.org

2013-04-09 Thread DoanVietTrungAtGmail 
FWIW, I'd like to reverse my answer, and now I agree with Oscar's 29 Jan
suggestion to make "Reply-to-tutor-list" the default.

Lately, several times a tutor had to forward to the list an email meant for
the list but sent to him only, by mistake. On the other hand, the
wrote-to-1-person-but-mistakenly-sent-to-list scenario that I had in mind
is rarer, therefore Oscar's suggestion is better than my previous reply.

Trung


On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 6:33 AM, Nick W  wrote:

> My personal opinion (with whatever limited weight that has on this list
> since I've only answered a few questions - and probably half of them I've
> accidentally only sent to the op)/how I read it is that RFC 2822 actually
> allows lists to set reply-to header; by my view the list software is
> forwarding to everyone else and therefor counts as the most recent
> sender/author. I admit that that is a somewhat different conclusion to
> others that I've read as to the meaning of 2822, but that seems logical to
> me and also my personal preference is for having the reply-to header be set
> to the list address.
> Nick
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 7:44 AM, Albert-Jan Roskam wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > To summarize existing opinions on this matter:
>> >
>> > http://marc.merlins.org/netrants/listreplyto.html
>> >
>> > You might want to familiarize yourself with existing literature on the
>> > matter before starting a new flame war.
>>
>> Hmmm... False alarm?
>>
>> Page blocked
>>
>> The page you've been trying to access was blocked.
>> Reason: Access Denied! The requested URL is a Spyware site.
>> Transaction ID is 5107F01CFF920603D57F.
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Re: [Tutor] Set Reply-To field to Tutor@python.org

2013-01-29 Thread Nick W 
My personal opinion (with whatever limited weight that has on this list
since I've only answered a few questions - and probably half of them I've
accidentally only sent to the op)/how I read it is that RFC 2822 actually
allows lists to set reply-to header; by my view the list software is
forwarding to everyone else and therefor counts as the most recent
sender/author. I admit that that is a somewhat different conclusion to
others that I've read as to the meaning of 2822, but that seems logical to
me and also my personal preference is for having the reply-to header be set
to the list address.
Nick


On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 7:44 AM, Albert-Jan Roskam  wrote:

>
>
> >
> > To summarize existing opinions on this matter:
> >
> > http://marc.merlins.org/netrants/listreplyto.html
> >
> > You might want to familiarize yourself with existing literature on the
> > matter before starting a new flame war.
>
> Hmmm... False alarm?
>
> Page blocked
>
> The page you've been trying to access was blocked.
> Reason: Access Denied! The requested URL is a Spyware site.
> Transaction ID is 5107F01CFF920603D57F.
> ___
> Tutor maillist  -  Tutor@python.org
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Re: [Tutor] Set Reply-To field to Tutor@python.org

2013-01-29 Thread Albert-Jan Roskam 


> 
> To summarize existing opinions on this matter:
> 
> http://marc.merlins.org/netrants/listreplyto.html
> 
> You might want to familiarize yourself with existing literature on the
> matter before starting a new flame war.

Hmmm... False alarm? 
 
Page blocked 

The page you've been trying to access was blocked.
Reason: Access Denied! The requested URL is a Spyware site.
Transaction ID is 5107F01CFF920603D57F.  
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Re: [Tutor] Set Reply-To field to Tutor@python.org

2013-01-29 Thread Kushal Kumaran 
Oscar Benjamin  writes:

> I have both sent and received messages on this list that went off-list
> by mistake. It's an easy mistake to make that you use reply instead of
> reply-all and then the message goes just to one person instead of the
> whole list.
>
> This problem is not unique to the python-tutor. I see it happening
> often on other mailing lists (often it's noticeable by the fact that
> someone forwards an off-list message back to the list which can
> sometimes break the threading of email software).
>
> One particular list that I receive has recently made an administrative
> change so that, from now on, all emails have the "Reply-To" header set
> to the list address. This means that the default behaviour when
> replying to a message is that the reply goes to the list. I think that
> this is the right thing to do by default since replying off-list is
> much less common and more likely to be something that you are
> consciously aware of when you do it.
>
> The change seems to have gone down well on the other list so I
> wondered: could it be done for this list as well?
>

To summarize existing opinions on this matter:

http://marc.merlins.org/netrants/listreplyto.html

You might want to familiarize yourself with existing literature on the
matter before starting a new flame war.

-- 
regards,
kushal
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Re: [Tutor] Set Reply-To field to Tutor@python.org

2013-01-29 Thread Jonatán Guadamuz 
El 29/01/2013, a las 04:14 a.m., Oscar Benjamin
 escribió:

> I see the mailing list as being fundamentally a public message forum
> and only very occasionally send an off-list message.

> Often this means that the archives are incomplete, so that there is a
> thread but the part of the thread where the OP says "Thanks, this is
> the solution that worked" or "Sorry, that's not what I meant. My
> actual problem is..." is missing. Not having this information on the
> list is unhelpful. It is unhelpful for people reading the archives in
> the future, for people who keep replying to a thread that is
> essentially solved, and for people who offer suggestions and don't get
> feedback on whether their suggestions were useful.

> For me at least, it is replying off-list that requires explicit
> consideration.

The fact of giving and receiving help by a public mean, and having
this help available to others as well, complete in the archives, it's
for me enough reason to give +1 to set reply-to field to tutor
address.
If I am reading something which comes from a mailing list then I think
the most proper way to reply would be to send an answer to all the
people which originally received the same message. That way, I can
avoid duplicate answers, even better this conduct can lead to
additional complementary answers because someone can construct on
previous partial solutions/suggestions. But this needs all answers are
available to everyone.

This is my opinion. I hope my writing is understandable.

--
Jonatan G
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Re: [Tutor] Set Reply-To field to Tutor@python.org

2013-01-29 Thread DoanVietTrungAtGmail 
On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:12 PM, Oscar Benjamin
wrote:

> If you don't mind my asking, do you send many off-list messages as
> replies to on-list ones?
> Oscar
>

For this list, I have sent 1 public reply and 2 private replies (to thank
individual tutors). Both numbers are too small to have any significance.

Reading the Chip Rosenthal article that Steven referred to, I thought that
in the case of this Tutor list, his arguments are neither here nor there.
It probably comes down to personal preference, and that's why I stated mine.

The reason for my personal preference is that for other lists, I am
frequently annoyed by private-reply emails landing in my inbox, and
sometimes I absent-mindedly do the same thing, thus annoying others.

For most lists, group-reply ought to be deliberate. For a few lists it
doesn't matter either way. What if, as Oscar seems to say, this Tutor list
is in a category where private-reply ought to be deliberate? Most people
would only form 1 habit for all lists, rather than 1 for each of the
several lists they participate in. If so, I think the habit of deliberate
public-reply would serve us better in terms of etiquette.

Trung
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Re: [Tutor] Set Reply-To field to Tutor@python.org

2013-01-29 Thread Oscar Benjamin 
On 29 January 2013 03:35, DoanVietTrungAtGmail  wrote:
> As a student user of this list, I prefer leaving the Reply-To field
> unchanged. I like the fact that this means a deliberate  decision is
> required to send public emails.

If you don't mind my asking, do you send many off-list messages as
replies to on-list ones?

I see the mailing list as being fundamentally a public message forum
and only very occasionally send an off-list message. Usually the
reason that I do this is because someone else has sent me a message
off-list and even though I'm fairly sure they meant it to be on-list I
don't want to assume that they did by replying back to the list.

Often this means that the archives are incomplete, so that there is a
thread but the part of the thread where the OP says "Thanks, this is
the solution that worked" or "Sorry, that's not what I meant. My
actual problem is..." is missing. Not having this information on the
list is unhelpful. It is unhelpful for people reading the archives in
the future, for people who keep replying to a thread that is
essentially solved, and for people who offer suggestions and don't get
feedback on whether their suggestions were useful.

Of course if the message is deliberately sent off-list then that is
fine but I find that I send/receive many more accidentally off-list
messages than deliberate ones. It's hard to predict how often the
alternative, accidentally sending a private message to the list, would
occur. Although judging from other lists where reply-to-list is the
default I would say not very often.

I don't find that replying to the list is a deliberate decision to
engage in public conversation since the fact that I read and respond
to the list at all is because I have already made that decision. For
me at least, it is replying off-list that requires explicit
consideration.


Oscar
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Re: [Tutor] Set Reply-To field to Tutor@python.org

2013-01-28 Thread DoanVietTrungAtGmail 
As a student user of this list, I prefer leaving the Reply-To field
unchanged. I like the fact that this means a deliberate  decision is
required to send public emails.

Trung

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> On 29/01/13 09:04, Oscar Benjamin wrote:
>
>  One particular list that I receive has recently made an administrative
>> change so that, from now on, all emails have the "Reply-To" header set
>> to the list address. This means that the default behaviour when
>> replying to a message is that the reply goes to the list. I think that
>> this is the right thing to do by default since replying off-list is
>> much less common and more likely to be something that you are
>> consciously aware of when you do it.
>>
>> The change seems to have gone down well on the other list so I
>> wondered: could it be done for this list as well?
>>
>
>
> http://www.unicom.com/pw/**reply-to-harmful.html
> http://woozle.org/~neale/**papers/reply-to-still-harmful.**html
>
> versus
>
> http://www.betacantrips.com/**bits/reply_to_munging_**
> considered_harmful_considered_**infuriating/
> http://www.metasystema.net/**essays/reply-to.mhtml
>
>
>
> --
> Steven
>
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Re: [Tutor] Set Reply-To field to Tutor@python.org

2013-01-28 Thread Steven D'Aprano 

On 29/01/13 09:04, Oscar Benjamin wrote:


One particular list that I receive has recently made an administrative
change so that, from now on, all emails have the "Reply-To" header set
to the list address. This means that the default behaviour when
replying to a message is that the reply goes to the list. I think that
this is the right thing to do by default since replying off-list is
much less common and more likely to be something that you are
consciously aware of when you do it.

The change seems to have gone down well on the other list so I
wondered: could it be done for this list as well?



http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html

versus

http://www.betacantrips.com/bits/reply_to_munging_considered_harmful_considered_infuriating/
http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.mhtml



--
Steven
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