RE: [U2] Restricted TCL prompt - UniVerse 10.2?

[Brian Leach]

Gabe

I would think the only real ways are

A) create your own TCL shell as a BASIC program. But there is always the
danger of someone breaking out of it accidentally.
 
B) Create a second restricted account and remove various verbs from there
(including COPY, ED and anything that would allow a user to recreate the
missing verb entries). You would obviously need to create pointers to your
files and catalog any application programs in that account.

C) Copy sensitive verb entries from the VOC to a secondary file, and access
them via Remote items. The Remote format allows you to specify the name of a
security subroutine in field 4. This can be used to test for e.g. a password
or check the @Logname, and allow or disallow the verb from running. 

Details on the remote security subroutine are on page 3-14 following of the
System Description Guide.

Regards

Brian

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gabriel Green
> Sent: 13 May 2007 04:12
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: [U2] Restricted TCL prompt - UniVerse 10.2?
> 
> Is there a way in UniVerse to create a restricted TCL prompt 
> with access to only a few verbs (and whatever they call) ?
> 
> Thanks
> Gabe
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RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Brian Leach]

Mark

Please don't feel my reply to your 'DOS-like' post was an attack. It
absolutely wasn't.

I just get frustrated that we - as a community - don't seem willing to
spread the word that this IS a vibrant and modern technology, but seem to
glory (and sometims wallow) in its past. Sometimes it seems we are
embarrassed to proclaim how good and up-to-date it really is, and take
refuge in our history when we should be trying to reach out. 

If this was a new technology, we'd all be blogging or telling our friends
about it.

Perhaps that's the problem. Maybe we just need to pretend it's something new
and radical. 

But then, people love MySQL, because it is simple and works (yes, it's also
free but so are PostgreSQL, Firebird and a dozen others that don't attract
anything like the following). People love PHP becaust it is simple and works
(and has easy-to-use database constructs, no data typing to worry about, is
fully cross platform, has no GUI - sound familiar ?). 

These are not sexy and 'new' technologies like Silverlight(1). They don't
have vendors and huge marketing dollars behind them. But they have strong
communities who feel passionately about them and who have spent years
telling everyone about them. I love PHP, and if I have to choose a SQL
database, yes I like MySQL. I recognize that they do their jobs well. The
same is true for what we have to offer, and it would be nice to feel that we
could all be a little bit more proud - and less apologetic - about it.


Brian

(1) Actually, what IS new about Silverlight? Apart from the name and the M$
gloss?

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MAJ 
> Programming
> Sent: 13 May 2007 00:22
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)
> 
> All:
> 
> I'm no stranger to voicing my observed professional opinion 
> regarding MV (or other topics) to see where my opinions lie 
> with everyone else.
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Re: [U2] Restricted TCL prompt - UniVerse 10.2?

[Manu Fernandes]

Hi,

See Universe Admin Doc, chapter 8 section 10+11
Security Subroutine and R-emote Pointer.

I hope this help.
Manu

- Original Message - 
From: "Gabriel Green" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 5:12 AM
Subject: [U2] Restricted TCL prompt - UniVerse 10.2?


Is there a way in UniVerse to create a restricted TCL prompt with access 
to

only a few verbs (and whatever they call) ?

Thanks
Gabe
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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[MAJ Programming]

Brian/All:

As a seasoned MV professional, borne from the original implementations
through the multiple native expressions and now supporting clients on most
of the current versions, I have a wide perspective. One of my flamable
downsides is that I'm not exposed (via my clients) to that much of the
cutting edge technologies.

I've been around the block to know where I stand. TG and others have often
flamed me by providing a disservice to my clients by not telling them each
and every new entity that comes out. My problem is that so much of it seems
to be the flavor of the month.

Dawn's recent reply to this thread suggested a few new technologies that
I've never heard of. Silverlite and Firebird sound like car names. IMHO,
I've heard of PHP as a flavor of the month, just like I heard of Perl and C#
a few years ago.

Some may argue that I should not take my clients lead and 'follow' them but
rather take my own initiative and invest in a new alphabetic language and
promote it to my clients. Fair enough. But if I ask this forum for
suggestions, 10 people will give me 8 differing languaged suggestions. All
valid but based on objectives.

I may be the odd man out in a bunch of this. In another completely different
industry where I am a published writer, give seminars and have an ounce of
national recognition, I am labeled as a curmudgeon with my rather pragmatic
opinions and many times I tend to rock the boat of accepted perspectives.
Oddly enough, my monthly column is called "Reality Check" and often inspires
other readers to start their replies with "Mark Johnson is full of sh*t".

I'm not tring to stir the embers with any of this. I'm just offering my
perspectives on a topic that may not go with the more-popular flavor. I make
beaucoups of $ in MV and this other industry so I must be doing something
correct with my opinions and methods. Am I leaving $ on the table? Probably.
Are my missing skills easily identified for a direct financial gain once
acquired? Probably not. It's anyone's guess.

Thanks
Mark Johnson
- Original Message -
From: "Brian Leach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 7:37 AM
Subject: RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)


> Mark
>
> Please don't feel my reply to your 'DOS-like' post was an attack. It
> absolutely wasn't.
>
> I just get frustrated that we - as a community - don't seem willing to
> spread the word that this IS a vibrant and modern technology, but seem to
> glory (and sometims wallow) in its past. Sometimes it seems we are
> embarrassed to proclaim how good and up-to-date it really is, and take
> refuge in our history when we should be trying to reach out.
>
> If this was a new technology, we'd all be blogging or telling our friends
> about it.
>
> Perhaps that's the problem. Maybe we just need to pretend it's something
new
> and radical.
>
> But then, people love MySQL, because it is simple and works (yes, it's
also
> free but so are PostgreSQL, Firebird and a dozen others that don't attract
> anything like the following). People love PHP becaust it is simple and
works
> (and has easy-to-use database constructs, no data typing to worry about,
is
> fully cross platform, has no GUI - sound familiar ?).
>
> These are not sexy and 'new' technologies like Silverlight(1). They don't
> have vendors and huge marketing dollars behind them. But they have strong
> communities who feel passionately about them and who have spent years
> telling everyone about them. I love PHP, and if I have to choose a SQL
> database, yes I like MySQL. I recognize that they do their jobs well. The
> same is true for what we have to offer, and it would be nice to feel that
we
> could all be a little bit more proud - and less apologetic - about it.
>
>
> Brian
>
> (1) Actually, what IS new about Silverlight? Apart from the name and the
M$
> gloss?
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MAJ
> > Programming
> > Sent: 13 May 2007 00:22
> > To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> > Subject: Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)
> >
> > All:
> >
> > I'm no stranger to voicing my observed professional opinion
> > regarding MV (or other topics) to see where my opinions lie
> > with everyone else.
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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Dawn Wolthuis]

On 5/13/07, MAJ Programming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Brian/All:



Dawn's recent reply to this thread suggested a few new technologies that
I've never heard of. Silverlite and Firebird sound like car names. IMHO,


I don't think I mentioned those, so likely that was someone else, but
apologies if I mentioned anything not in common vocabulary, especially
anything hard to google.



I may be the odd man out in a bunch of this. In another completely different
industry where I am a published writer, give seminars and have an ounce of
national recognition, I am labeled as a curmudgeon with my rather pragmatic
opinions and many times I tend to rock the boat of accepted perspectives.
Oddly enough, my monthly column is called "Reality Check" and often inspires
other readers to start their replies with "Mark Johnson is full of sh*t".


Your name is just too common so that I get 2,500 hits googling for

mark-johnson reality-check

It might be staring me in the face, but if you could provide a URL,
that would be great, even if OT.  Thanks.  --dawn
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Anthony W. Youngman]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Charles Barouch 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

Gabriel,
 I am currently writing an MV book and editing another. The first will 
be distributed free as a PDF and the second will be a college text 
book. We already have one College committed to using it bt I can't say 
more at this time.


I ought to rewrite my stuff about MV. What I'll try and do is write a 
"Why MV" article. I've found a nice little Einstein quote - "As far as 
the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as 
far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." And there's 
always Knuth - "Beware of bugs, I have only proved this program correct, 
not tested it".


You know my complaint about Relational is maths not science ... :-) I 
need to word that in simple words that a novice can understand, and then 
we might break the relational death-grip :-)


I've got a new analogy to replace Newton :-) You know that map problem? 
How many colours it takes to guarantee no two adjacent regions share a 
colour? Well, it's easy to prove that seven colours are both necessary 
and sufficient ...


Hang on!!! EASY? And SEVEN? Well, it is. Provided you choose a 
convenient reality to do it in. Just don't choose a two-dimensional 
reality to do it in. Bit like database analysis, really. It's easy, if 
you don't choose a two-dimensional reality to do it in :-)


Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the
thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man
lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998
Visit the MaVerick web-site -  Open Source Pick
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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Anthony W. Youngman]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 
Dawn Wolthuis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

I can imagine two possible curriculae in which a textbook could work.
The area I have been researching might lend itself to a supplemental
text (far easier to get approved for a course than an actual text
book) within a Computer Science, Information Systems, Database-y
curriculum specifically for the purpose of showing that not all
databases are SQL-DBMS's (or deriving from the RDBMS wave). Simply
showing the video I mentioned is helpful to giving students who have
spent half a semester normalizing data a broader perspective. If your
book would fit into that curriculum, I have already given some thought
on how to pursue that, enough to decide it was not worth it to me, but
it might be to you and your publisher. Some of this has to do with
what the current reach and goals of your publisher are.


How do you gui-ize a database ENGINE. SQL isn't GUI, is it?

I'll probably try to write my "Why MV" on the train tomorrow. Celko 
wrote (ages ago) about several features he expected would be missing 
from MS Access. They weren't visualisable, so they wouldn't exist in a 
visual product. Seems he was correct!


The trouble is, programming etc is being dumbed down for the common man. 
The ?majority? of people are incapable of abstract thought. So any 
product that requires such thought (such as MV) is going to suffer :-(


Relational is easy to visualise - it's two-dimensional. But because it's 
so shallow :-) it makes it hard to model real problems. MV is much more 
flexible, powerful, and HARD TO VISUALISE. So the average "guy in the 
street" doesn't - CAN'T - get it :-(


As soon as you can get people to THINK and DESIGN, you should be able to 
get them to appreciate the power of MV. Trouble is, most people never 
get that far :-( and then you end up with horror databases :-)


Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the
thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man
lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998
Visit the MaVerick web-site -  Open Source Pick
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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Anthony W. Youngman]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, MAJ 
Programming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

Dawn's recent reply to this thread suggested a few new technologies that
I've never heard of. Silverlite and Firebird sound like car names. IMHO,
I've heard of PHP as a flavor of the month, just like I heard of Perl and C#
a few years ago.


You know Thunderbird - the companion mail-client to the Firefox browser? 
It was originally supposed to be called Firebird - until the Firebird 
Database people complained.


Firebird might actually be the renamed dBase! I don't think it is, but 
iirc Borland had a dBase-type database, and when they no longer had any 
use for it, released it as Open Source, and that's Firebird. So if I'm 
right, it's a dBase-stable database, and actually very well known under 
another name.


Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the
thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man
lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998
Visit the MaVerick web-site -  Open Source Pick
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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Dawn Wolthuis]

On 5/13/07, Anthony W. Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, MAJ
Programming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>Dawn's recent reply to this thread suggested a few new technologies that
>I've never heard of. Silverlite and Firebird sound like car names. IMHO,
>I've heard of PHP as a flavor of the month, just like I heard of Perl and C#
>a few years ago.

You know Thunderbird - the companion mail-client to the Firefox browser?
It was originally supposed to be called Firebird - until the Firebird
Database people complained.

Firebird might actually be the renamed dBase!


Nope, it is Interbase.  Since I'm bootstraping a startup, which is how
interbase  (and many other products) started, I recently landed on
this page 
http://www.ibphoenix.com/main.nfs?a=ibphoenix&s=1179094845:1336476&page=ibp_ann_history1

Firebird is Interbase, although with major rewrites IIRC.  --dawn


I don't think it is, but
iirc Borland had a dBase-type database, and when they no longer had any
use for it, released it as Open Source, and that's Firebird. So if I'm
right, it's a dBase-stable database, and actually very well known under
another name.

Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the
thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man
lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998
Visit the MaVerick web-site -  Open Source Pick
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--
Dawn M. Wolthuis
Tincat Group, Inc.  tincat-group.com

Take and give some delight today
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Dawn Wolthuis]

It sounds like there is enough material among us all to perhaps pull
it together in a single book. If anyone would like to work on pulling
something like that together...

BTW, Is the four-color theorem still one that has only been proven "by
computer" or is there now an elegant mathematical proof too?   --dawn

On 5/11/07, Anthony W. Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Charles Barouch
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>Gabriel,
>  I am currently writing an MV book and editing another. The first will
>be distributed free as a PDF and the second will be a college text
>book. We already have one College committed to using it bt I can't say
>more at this time.

I ought to rewrite my stuff about MV. What I'll try and do is write a
"Why MV" article. I've found a nice little Einstein quote - "As far as
the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as
far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." And there's
always Knuth - "Beware of bugs, I have only proved this program correct,
not tested it".

You know my complaint about Relational is maths not science ... :-) I
need to word that in simple words that a novice can understand, and then
we might break the relational death-grip :-)

I've got a new analogy to replace Newton :-) You know that map problem?
How many colours it takes to guarantee no two adjacent regions share a
colour? Well, it's easy to prove that seven colours are both necessary
and sufficient ...

Hang on!!! EASY? And SEVEN? Well, it is. Provided you choose a
convenient reality to do it in. Just don't choose a two-dimensional
reality to do it in. Bit like database analysis, really. It's easy, if
you don't choose a two-dimensional reality to do it in :-)

Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the
thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man
lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998
Visit the MaVerick web-site -  Open Source Pick
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--
Dawn M. Wolthuis
Tincat Group, Inc.  tincat-group.com

Take and give some delight today
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[U2] RE: MV Books

[Bill Haskett]

Anthony: 

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
>Anthony W. Youngman
>Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 1:12 PM
>To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
>Subject: Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)
>
[snipped]
>
>The trouble is, programming etc is being dumbed down for the 
>common man. The ?majority? of people are incapable of abstract
>thought. So any product that requires such thought (such as MV)
>is going to suffer :-(

I'm not a very intelligent person myself.  And I do have difficulty with
abstract thought.  Since I find MV rather straightforward and logical, I'd
have to disagree with you that MV isn't for the "common man".  I'd have
postulated that MV is precisely for the "common businessman".

>Relational is easy to visualise - it's two-dimensional. But 
>because it's so shallow :-) it makes it hard to model real
>problems. MV is much more flexible, powerful, and HARD TO
>VISUALISE. So the average "guy in the street" doesn't - CAN'T
>- get it :-(

As has been pointed out previously, provable math doesn't seem to describe
reality very well.  :-)

Bill
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[U2] SLEEP (until some specific time)

[Dave Taylor]

Generic Pick supports SLEEP (seconds) or SLEEP (until some specific time
hh:mm:ss)

UV Rel. 10.2.3 in the Pick flavor does not appear to support the SLEEP
(specific time) option.

Anyone know of another way to perform this function?

tia,

Dave

Dave Taylor
CEO
Sysmark Information Systems, Inc.
49 Aspen Way
Rolling Hills Estates, CA 90274
800-SYSMARK (800-797-6275)
(O) 310-544-1974
(C) 310-561-5200
(F) 310-377-3550
www.sysmarkinfo.com
Your Source for Integrated EDI Translation, DataSync Integration and Software
Migration
Authorized IBM Business Partner
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RE: [U2] I-DESC Dict Items Returning SUBR Value

[Dave Taylor]

Thank you to Chuck, David, Brian and Bernard for your suggestions.

I needed to add the information to atrributes 5 and 6 of the dictionary
item, and it worked.

I am still puzzled as to where I can find the structure of the ITYPE dict
item described *fully* in the UV documentation.

Thanks again,

Dave

Dave Taylor
CEO
Sysmark Information Systems, Inc.
49 Aspen Way
Rolling Hills Estates, CA 90274
800-SYSMARK (800-797-6275)
(O) 310-544-1974
(C) 310-561-5200
(F) 310-377-3550
www.sysmarkinfo.com
Your Source for Integrated EDI Translation, DataSync Integration and
Software Migration
Authorized IBM Business Partner


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RE: [U2] 2 questions, one on STATUS and the other on STEAL-FILE

[Keith Johnson \(DSLWN\)]

Jeff Fitzgerald  wrote

> Could you give us an example of that -- I don't seem to be able to get
it to work:

I remember in the past being able to use the form "SET.INDEX FAST.STATS
TO ./I_FAST.STATS".  However, now one has to use the key word
"RELATIVE.PATH" like this

  "SET.INDEX FAST.STATS TO RELATIVE.PATH"

The key word is within the program only - it is not in the VOC, and this
usage is undocumented. (!)  The program will prompt you to show what it
would use (./I_FAST.STATS) and ask if this is OK.


I really like the idea of using relative addressing for indexes, but I
do wish this was documented properly.  Using the word RELATIVE.PATH to
implement the capability is noted in the program header (line 17) as
being GTAR E7818 dated 05/08/05, but it appears the actual capability
was provided by E1752 of 07/12/03 (line 19).  As I say, I remember using
a relative path reference some time ago... possibly before 2001.


Regards, Keith

P.S. Can someone come up with a humorous acronym for the archetypal
nit-picking documentation-nagging grumpy old bug^H^H^Hprogrammer?  Just
wondering.
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RE: [U2] I-DESC Dict Items Returning SUBR Value

[Bernard Lubin]

Dave,

Chapter 5 of the Universe System Description Manual defines all the
attributes used in the dictionary.  Hope this helps.


Rgds

Bernard Lubin
Development Department
Reynolds and Reynolds
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Taylor
Sent: Monday, 14 May 2007 9:59 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] I-DESC Dict Items Returning SUBR Value

Thank you to Chuck, David, Brian and Bernard for your suggestions.

I needed to add the information to atrributes 5 and 6 of the dictionary
item, and it worked.

I am still puzzled as to where I can find the structure of the ITYPE dict
item described *fully* in the UV documentation.

Thanks again,

Dave

Dave Taylor
CEO
Sysmark Information Systems, Inc.
49 Aspen Way
Rolling Hills Estates, CA 90274
800-SYSMARK (800-797-6275)
(O) 310-544-1974
(C) 310-561-5200
(F) 310-377-3550
www.sysmarkinfo.com
Your Source for Integrated EDI Translation, DataSync Integration and
Software Migration
Authorized IBM Business Partner


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RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Mike Randall]

Reading some of posts on this one, I had to throw my 2 cents in here.   I
agree with Brian's concept that MV *IS* a vibrant, modern technology capable
of doing all the things the other environments do.   For the past 3 years
now,  I have been exclusively doing .Net development with Oracle and SQL
backends.  This after 20 years as a MV developer.  

The real problem as I see it lies in marketing, tool sets and the skills of
those of us left still carrying the mantle.   After becoming quite well
versed in PL-SQL and Oracle,  I can say from experience that it is fairly
similar, probably more cumbersome, AND NOT GUI.   Avoiding the arguments of
the pros and cons of SQL databases vs MV(there are many and I've come to
appreciate the integrity levels of the SQL databases over MV),  the big
difference is how SQL Server/Oracle/Sybase etc. are marketed,  the
integration with modern tools and the lack of skill of many MV experts to
integrate the modern tools with MV.   

I think the days of developing MV with character interfaces are a complete
dead end.   Anyone doing any new development that way is providing a
disservice to their target audience.   It's building new obsolescence.
They are deemed old from the start and the 1st targets for replacement no
matter how functional they are.   The key today is n-tier design where your
options are where is your data, business logic and presentation.MV is
*DEAD* on the presentation side.  It can  however, be an excellent
repository for data and your business logic.   That's what the SQL guys do.
Data repositories and some business logic.   The real business stuff is in
Java or some .Net language and likely the same for the presentation layer.
MV and especially U2 can follow that exact model as the hooks have been
there for quite a while.  The fact that we don't as a community has
contributed to the continued attrition of our market.  

Mike Randall,  MCP

 
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Leach
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 7:38 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

Mark

Please don't feel my reply to your 'DOS-like' post was an attack. It
absolutely wasn't.

I just get frustrated that we - as a community - don't seem willing to
spread the word that this IS a vibrant and modern technology, but seem to
glory (and sometims wallow) in its past. Sometimes it seems we are
embarrassed to proclaim how good and up-to-date it really is, and take
refuge in our history when we should be trying to reach out. 
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RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Mike Randall]

Mark,

My comments to your post would be one of what is your real business?  I
think maximizing billable hours from a consulting standpoint is very
different than building viable software solutions for today's market.   I
have a couple of green screen guys myself that love their 10+ year old app
and are reluctant/too price sensitive to rush into changing it.  

What I get from each of them is increased need to do more 'modern' things
based on competitors or new business requirement where integration to other
things is a requirement (web and MS Office are the most common).   As the
new request come in,  I use the opportunity to modernize the environment
wherever possible.

I would think one way if my goal was generating hours and quite another if
my goal was developing software.  I would think that every MV software
company out there has dumped or is trying to dump their green screen.  If
they don't,  they flat out won't be able to sell it.



Mike Randall,  MCP


 
 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MAJ Programming
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 7:22 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

All:

I'm no stranger to voicing my observed professional opinion regarding MV (or
other topics) to see where my opinions lie with everyone else.

Perhaps I'm fortunate in that my 15 or so clients are pretty content with
their current MV systems, despite how far out of the 'norm' they may be.
While I speak for myself, I'm sure that the accumulated opinion of my
clients still bodes well for their green screens.

None are in technical businesses. A few are in manufacturing, publishing,
distribution and other tangible businesses.

Theirs is a gradual evolution in that new ideas may take a while before they
can be applied to their companies. As many will offer flames, I cannot
pepper every conversation with my clients on the latest and greatest
technologies. I've been down that road and it ain't as easy as many of the
others on this forum may expect.

This may throw down the gauntlet as many may feel that I'm dropping the ball
and not being the best for my clients. How can I be doing such a bad thing
for my clients when my average tenure with them is 10 years and I pretty
much remain until they get acquired or go out of business. Only 2 exist that
have retired their MV systems for something else.

I don't feel that I'm inhibiting my own growth as I truly wonder what
direction to invest my vocations in. I don't want to endeavor into the new
languages, especially java or net as I don't want to compete with every
22 year old fresh college graduate for those jobs.

I'm already making money with my VB project and if all goes well, I could
feasibly ramp up to this project generating 50% of my current income. While
VB may not be the latest and greatest, it is an example of the client
(customer) not really caring what's under the hood. They like my car.

Thanks
Mark Johnson
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[U2] A couple of questions about the PE version

[Keith Johnson \(DSLWN\)]

As I recall, neither U2 console understands screen addressing - which
means you can't run most of the applications I've written from the
console. To my mind this means that someone can't just run U2 'out of
the box' and get a thing that works.  They will have to connect to a
terminal emulator or set up some interface.  Whatever that is, it may
have the potential to fail or to confuse.

I know it _is_ possible to have a console that allows screen addressing,
because the QM one does.  Does anyone know why the U2 console(s) cannot
do simple green screen applications?

What is  the easiest, simplest way to set up a terminal session with the
Personal Edition on a standalone PC?  I'd like to do it on my home one.

Regards, Keith

P.S. Decrepitude means I can only follow simple instructions that assume
neither knowledge nor sense.
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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[MAJ Programming]

I should have been a little clearer.

Dawn mentioned some other technologies that I didn't hear of. Then Brian
brought up Silverlite & Firebird.

Point still intended. There seems to be an endless stream of new 'languages'
that somehow cause one to feel left out.

Mark Johnson
- Original Message -
From: "Dawn Wolthuis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)


> On 5/13/07, MAJ Programming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Brian/All:
> 
> > Dawn's recent reply to this thread suggested a few new technologies that
> > I've never heard of. Silverlite and Firebird sound like car names. IMHO,
>
> I don't think I mentioned those, so likely that was someone else, but
> apologies if I mentioned anything not in common vocabulary, especially
> anything hard to google.
>
> 
> > I may be the odd man out in a bunch of this. In another completely
different
> > industry where I am a published writer, give seminars and have an ounce
of
> > national recognition, I am labeled as a curmudgeon with my rather
pragmatic
> > opinions and many times I tend to rock the boat of accepted
perspectives.
> > Oddly enough, my monthly column is called "Reality Check" and often
inspires
> > other readers to start their replies with "Mark Johnson is full of
sh*t".
>
> Your name is just too common so that I get 2,500 hits googling for
>
> mark-johnson reality-check
>
> It might be staring me in the face, but if you could provide a URL,
> that would be great, even if OT.  Thanks.  --dawn
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RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[David Jordan]

Hi Mark

I think you are misunderstanding the issue.  We all accept the character
based applications are efficient and effective, and why replace it with GUI
if there is no benefit.  

The issue comes down to whether the Glass is half empty or half full.  The
facts are the same it is just how we look at it.  We can look at mv as
historic or we can put a different spin on it and look at it as leading
technology.  

The concern is that with young people, the look at character base
applications as antiquated and this causes them to have a perspective that
the mv environment is old Hat.  You are only looking at mv as a character
based applicaton, yet this is only a small component of the MV environment.
MultiValue can do everything that these kids are doing with SQL Server and
other RDBMS and more, so why would young people not want to learn about
MultiValue.  They may not want to learn about developing character based
applications, but they will love all the other features of MultiValue.

To put a different perspective on multivalue, we are saying separate the
User Interface from the business rules engine.
1. User Interface  - Character or GUI or Web (Uv Basic, .Net,
Java,...
2. Business Rules Engine - Database, Stored Procedures/Subroutines.

When you look at the Business Rules Engine
Oracle, SQL Server, DB2 they all have a character based Interface
Ie the SQL COMMAND line  "SELECT col1, Col2 FROM Table ..

So why is mv antiqauted because it has tcl, it is not different to any other
databases.

In summary.
  
1. There is nothing wrong with having character based applications.
2. Young people will want to learn mv because it offers more than the other
database environments for BUSINESS RULES DEVELOPMENT. (The backend of the
application)
3. Functionality Offered
1.Microsoft offers 2 facilities
1. A database SQL SERVER
2. A client interface development Product
2. Multivalue is better it offers 3 Facilities
1. A database  
2. A Character Based Application Development Tool
3. Interface to other Client Tools .Net, Java, ...
4. Query Languages
1. RDBMS provide SQL
2. Multivalue Provides SQL and an ENGLISH Query Language.

All that everyone is asking is to look at MultiValue in a different light,
not change what you are doing.


Regards
David Jordan
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Re: [U2] SLEEP (until some specific time)

[MAJ Programming]

If all you have is SLEEP 1000 instead of SLEEP 18:30, then simply calculate
the difference of seconds.
My 1:00 cents
Mark Johnson
- Original Message -
From: "Dave Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 8:02 PM
Subject: [U2] SLEEP (until some specific time)


> Generic Pick supports SLEEP (seconds) or SLEEP (until some specific time
> hh:mm:ss)
>
> UV Rel. 10.2.3 in the Pick flavor does not appear to support the SLEEP
> (specific time) option.
>
> Anyone know of another way to perform this function?
>
> tia,
>
> Dave
>
> Dave Taylor
> CEO
> Sysmark Information Systems, Inc.
> 49 Aspen Way
> Rolling Hills Estates, CA 90274
> 800-SYSMARK (800-797-6275)
> (O) 310-544-1974
> (C) 310-561-5200
> (F) 310-377-3550
> www.sysmarkinfo.com
> Your Source for Integrated EDI Translation, DataSync Integration and
Software
> Migration
> Authorized IBM Business Partner
> ---
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> u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Gabriel Green]

I'm 25 and was raised on the Mac/Amiga, then got into UNIXand used
Windows (reluctantly, until Win2k came out) since version 3.0 and various
other platforms...

When I first encountered our MV application I thought "this looks like an
ancient piece of crap".  I changed positions to IT manager shortly after
being hired and quickly learned the power and flexibility for quickly
writing and customizing powerful business software--things which would take
much much longer in other environments--and the bland ADDS viewpoint
interface no longer bothered me.  Too many business applications are filled
with bloat, fancy graphics, and hard coded feature sets rather than real
functionality or flexibility.  We have our brilliant software engineers to
thank for the app we use but they chose MV for a reason.

To badly re-phrase a cliche, it's the data, stupid. (Not referring to you of
course).  Some applications simply do not need a GUI, even in this day and
age.  Particularly business applications.  I was a student at UC Berkeley, I
personally would much rather take a MV class than the awful CS 61 series

It is my understanding with AccuTerm and other tools the end user can see a
GUI anyway; I believe there is one available or in development for the
product we use but since we still have dumb terminals in the field we can't
use it just yet.

I must be the exception rather than the rule but as I become more learned in
actual MV programming I would be happy to write articles outlining why it
captured my interest and how to best raise awareness of this well-kept
secret and get other geeks from my generation interested in carrying the
torch.

Gabe

On 5/11/07, MAJ Programming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any college courses for MV.
>
> I have 2 kids, aged 20 & 17. When the 20 yr old was in 7th grade (7 years
> ago) they were exposed to Microsoft Office items like Word, Excel,
> PowerPoint, Publisher and even Access. Likewise for the 17 yr old more
> recently.
>
> From that point forward, the kids are incredibly immersed in everything
> GUI/windows/internet. The endless hours of IMing, downloading, surfing and
> everything else GUI seems to point forward in the right direction.
>
> Thus, imagine a college student considering such courses as Cisco
> Certification, MCSE and other highly visible entities also considering an
> MV
> course if it were offered. Upon the first day they would quickly drop the
> course as MV offers neither an entertainable/WYSIWYG environment, a
> familiar
> data structure (to those weened on everything MS), a practical purpose for
> the individual nor any seemingly useful employment opportunities.
>
> Sorry for the dark cloud but I can't imagine even the most purposeful
> young
> adult considering MV. I teach the Computer merit badge in the Boy Scouts
> and
> even that course outline is heavily MS. I even took the brightest kid in
> my
> class, a senior at a local High-Tech (Gifted & Talented) high school and
> fired up one of my D3 systems to show him how I make a living.
>
> I spent way too much time trying to make analogies in MV to what I know he
> knows about MS Access. This kid is Cisco Certified from his school and
> capable of understanding the MV model. But since it was different, it was
> an
> uphill battle to illustrate some of its superior features.
>
> I saw the look in his eyes that he was being polite in letting me speak
> but
> he was clearly not interested in something that looks like DOS. While I
> know
> that there are many 4GL's and GUI overlays for MV, it still is a huge
> amount
> of command-line stuff.
>
> We are the best kept secret in the computer business. Virtually zero
> people
> have heard of Pick, MV or any of the old or present flavors. Yes,
> everyone's
> heard of IBM but that's about it. Honeywell makes air conditioners,
> Mcdonnel
> Douglass makes airplanes and Sanyo makes consumer electronics.
>
> I believe there is a delicate balance between proficient MV programmers
> and
> MV environments. The newer MV programmers may have gotten thrust into
> supporting a MV environment when their employers added that slight
> responsibility to their otherwise IT (network/Ms/unix) list.
>
> I'm sure actual mileage may differ but not by much. I'm glad I'm an
> independent programmer as a few of my full-time MV programmer
> acquaintenances are now looking at their MV jobs disappearing with each MV
> system being replaced. Hopefully they are professionally versed in other
> environments as I am endeavouring as well.
>
> My 3 cents
> Mark Johnson
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Charles Barouch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 11:24 AM
> Subject: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)
>
>
> > Dawn,
> >  What I really need is your plenty potent Professorial powers to get
> > more colleges willing to teach the course once we have the textbook
> read.
> >  - Chuck
> >
> > Dawn W

Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Eugene Perry]

I can certainly understand that if his client does not want gui etc then he 
should do as his client wants.


Since he is not developing a software package for market he has no need to 
do otherwise.


I have worked with 2 companies in the last year that are doing gui front end 
and pick based back ends. One

is using java for the front end and the other is using coldfusion.

I also found it interesting that the CTO for IBM came out recently and said 
that client-server is dead and that
we should be moving to server side software.  That does sound to me like 
what Pick has done for years.


Eugene
- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Randall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 11:12 PM
Subject: RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)



Reading some of posts on this one, I had to throw my 2 cents in here.   I
agree with Brian's concept that MV *IS* a vibrant, modern technology 
capable

of doing all the things the other environments do.   For the past 3 years
now,  I have been exclusively doing .Net development with Oracle and SQL
backends.  This after 20 years as a MV developer.

The real problem as I see it lies in marketing, tool sets and the skills 
of

those of us left still carrying the mantle.   After becoming quite well
versed in PL-SQL and Oracle,  I can say from experience that it is fairly
similar, probably more cumbersome, AND NOT GUI.   Avoiding the arguments 
of

the pros and cons of SQL databases vs MV(there are many and I've come to
appreciate the integrity levels of the SQL databases over MV),  the big
difference is how SQL Server/Oracle/Sybase etc. are marketed,  the
integration with modern tools and the lack of skill of many MV experts to
integrate the modern tools with MV.

I think the days of developing MV with character interfaces are a complete
dead end.   Anyone doing any new development that way is providing a
disservice to their target audience.   It's building new obsolescence.
They are deemed old from the start and the 1st targets for replacement no
matter how functional they are.   The key today is n-tier design where 
your

options are where is your data, business logic and presentation.MV is
*DEAD* on the presentation side.  It can  however, be an excellent
repository for data and your business logic.   That's what the SQL guys 
do.

Data repositories and some business logic.   The real business stuff is in
Java or some .Net language and likely the same for the presentation layer.
MV and especially U2 can follow that exact model as the hooks have been
there for quite a while.  The fact that we don't as a community has
contributed to the continued attrition of our market.

Mike Randall,  MCP




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Leach
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 7:38 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

Mark

Please don't feel my reply to your 'DOS-like' post was an attack. It
absolutely wasn't.

I just get frustrated that we - as a community - don't seem willing to
spread the word that this IS a vibrant and modern technology, but seem to
glory (and sometims wallow) in its past. Sometimes it seems we are
embarrassed to proclaim how good and up-to-date it really is, and take
refuge in our history when we should be trying to reach out.
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RE: Articles (MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board))

[David Jordan]

Hi Gabe

The U2UG are very interested to get articles about why people use multivalue
in there environment.  Particularly you being a fresh face and a convert,
your insight would be welcome.  Managers need information like this to
justify to their boards and management why they should keep with U2 and from
a practical and business case rather that an emotive position.

Anyone else with ideas are also welcome to send me articles
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

It does not have to be a pultzer prize, we are a user group, not selling
magazines.  We want News, Ideas, Success Stories, Technical tips, you name
we have a place for it. (Well most of it)

Regards 



David Jordan
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Re: [U2] A couple of questions about the PE version

[Dave Taylor]

Keith,

If I understand your question correctly, the simplest way to connect to U2
from the machine on which it is installed (the console) using a telnet
client is to install the telnet client (eg Dynamic Connect) on the same
machine and telnet to itself.

hth,

Dave

Dave Taylor
CEO
Sysmark Information Systems, Inc.
49 Aspen Way
Rolling Hills Estates, CA 90274
800-SYSMARK (800-797-6275)
(O) 310-544-1974
(C) 310-561-5200
(F) 310-377-3550
www.sysmarkinfo.com
Your Source for Integrated EDI Translation, DataSync Integration and
Software Migration
Authorized IBM Business Partner
- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Johnson (DSLWN)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 6:59 PM
Subject: [U2] A couple of questions about the PE version


> As I recall, neither U2 console understands screen addressing - which
> means you can't run most of the applications I've written from the
> console. To my mind this means that someone can't just run U2 'out of
> the box' and get a thing that works.  They will have to connect to a
> terminal emulator or set up some interface.  Whatever that is, it may
> have the potential to fail or to confuse.
>
> I know it _is_ possible to have a console that allows screen addressing,
> because the QM one does.  Does anyone know why the U2 console(s) cannot
> do simple green screen applications?
>
> What is  the easiest, simplest way to set up a terminal session with the
> Personal Edition on a standalone PC?  I'd like to do it on my home one.
>
> Regards, Keith
>
> P.S. Decrepitude means I can only follow simple instructions that assume
> neither knowledge nor sense.
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RE: [U2] I-DESC Dict Items Returning SUBR Value

[Dave Taylor]

Bernard,

That helps immensely.

I should have started there before reading anything else.

I'll go back and start from the beginning!

Thanks much,

Dave

Dave Taylor
CEO
Sysmark Information Systems, Inc.
49 Aspen Way
Rolling Hills Estates, CA 90274
800-SYSMARK (800-797-6275)
(O) 310-544-1974
(C) 310-561-5200
(F) 310-377-3550
www.sysmarkinfo.com
Your Source for Integrated EDI Translation, DataSync Integration and
Software Migration
Authorized IBM Business Partner
- Original Message - 
From: "Bernard Lubin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 5:32 PM
Subject:  RE: [U2] I-DESC Dict Items Returning SUBR Value


> Dave,
>
> Chapter 5 of the Universe System Description Manual defines all the
> attributes used in the dictionary.  Hope this helps.
>
>
> Rgds
>
> Bernard Lubin
> Development Department
> Reynolds and Reynolds
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Taylor
> Sent: Monday, 14 May 2007 9:59 AM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: RE: [U2] I-DESC Dict Items Returning SUBR Value
>
> Thank you to Chuck, David, Brian and Bernard for your suggestions.
>
> I needed to add the information to atrributes 5 and 6 of the dictionary
> item, and it worked.
>
> I am still puzzled as to where I can find the structure of the ITYPE dict
> item described *fully* in the UV documentation.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Dave
>
> Dave Taylor
> CEO
> Sysmark Information Systems, Inc.
> 49 Aspen Way
> Rolling Hills Estates, CA 90274
> 800-SYSMARK (800-797-6275)
> (O) 310-544-1974
> (C) 310-561-5200
> (F) 310-377-3550
> www.sysmarkinfo.com
> Your Source for Integrated EDI Translation, DataSync Integration and
> Software Migration
> Authorized IBM Business Partner
>
> 
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> To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
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Re: [U2] SLEEP (until some specific time)

[Dave Taylor]

Mark,

Ofcourse!

That's thinking outside the box.

Thank you.

Dave

Dave Taylor
CEO
Sysmark Information Systems, Inc.
49 Aspen Way
Rolling Hills Estates, CA 90274
800-SYSMARK (800-797-6275)
(O) 310-544-1974
(C) 310-561-5200
(F) 310-377-3550
www.sysmarkinfo.com
Your Source for Integrated EDI Translation, DataSync Integration and
Software Migration
Authorized IBM Business Partner
- Original Message - 
From: "MAJ Programming" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [U2] SLEEP (until some specific time)


> If all you have is SLEEP 1000 instead of SLEEP 18:30, then simply
calculate
> the difference of seconds.
> My 1:00 cents
> Mark Johnson
> - Original Message -
> From: "Dave Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 8:02 PM
> Subject: [U2] SLEEP (until some specific time)
>
>
> > Generic Pick supports SLEEP (seconds) or SLEEP (until some specific time
> > hh:mm:ss)
> >
> > UV Rel. 10.2.3 in the Pick flavor does not appear to support the SLEEP
> > (specific time) option.
> >
> > Anyone know of another way to perform this function?
> >
> > tia,
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > Dave Taylor
> > CEO
> > Sysmark Information Systems, Inc.
> > 49 Aspen Way
> > Rolling Hills Estates, CA 90274
> > 800-SYSMARK (800-797-6275)
> > (O) 310-544-1974
> > (C) 310-561-5200
> > (F) 310-377-3550
> > www.sysmarkinfo.com
> > Your Source for Integrated EDI Translation, DataSync Integration and
> Software
> > Migration
> > Authorized IBM Business Partner
> > ---
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