Re: [U2] Friday type of question
If there is an attribute mark or value mark, they count as part of the Length of the @Record. So a record with only a single value mark, still has a length of 1. -Original Message- From: Allen Elwood RR To: U2 Users List Sent: Fri, Aug 31, 2012 8:29 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Friday type of question does that still work if there are attr/value marks but everything else is null ? not sure, never tried, but i know i've seen recs with nothing but these before ellusian, lol, sounds like the aliens with the big brains that could make you see things that weren't there in star trek (had to look it up, it's talosians) On 8/31/2012 4:56 PM, Rutherford, Marc wrote: > David, > > Create an 'I' type dictionary which with this function: > > < 1 > Top of "REC_LEN" > > 001: I > 002: LEN( @RECORD ) > 003: > 004: LEN > 005: 10R > 006: S > > Select the file with your new dict = 0 > > SELECT PARTS WITH REC_LEN = "0" > > Marc Rutherford > Principal Programmer Analyst > Advanced Bionics LLC > 661) 362 1754 > > -Original Message- > From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org > [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Morelli, David W. > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 4:43 PM > To: U2 Users List > Subject: [U2] Friday type of question > > Is there an easy way to determine if a record is empty? > > I have a saved list of a thousand or more records that have record ID's that interfere with our Ellusian database. > > If they are truly empty, I can do house cleaning on them. If they contain > any data, I have to do a different process. > > When I AE into a record I get > :AE PERSON 2362 > Top of "2362" in "PERSON", 0 lines. > > So, it is really empty. > > I believe there must be a better way than handling every one of them, but I have been away from Unidata and forgotten everything. > > David Morelli > Pacific University > Oregon > > ___ > U2-Users mailing list > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > ___ > U2-Users mailing list > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Friday type of question
does that still work if there are attr/value marks but everything else is null ? not sure, never tried, but i know i've seen recs with nothing but these before ellusian, lol, sounds like the aliens with the big brains that could make you see things that weren't there in star trek (had to look it up, it's talosians) On 8/31/2012 4:56 PM, Rutherford, Marc wrote: David, Create an 'I' type dictionary which with this function: < 1 > Top of "REC_LEN" 001: I 002: LEN( @RECORD ) 003: 004: LEN 005: 10R 006: S Select the file with your new dict = 0 SELECT PARTS WITH REC_LEN = "0" Marc Rutherford Principal Programmer Analyst Advanced Bionics LLC 661) 362 1754 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Morelli, David W. Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 4:43 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: [U2] Friday type of question Is there an easy way to determine if a record is empty? I have a saved list of a thousand or more records that have record ID's that interfere with our Ellusian database. If they are truly empty, I can do house cleaning on them. If they contain any data, I have to do a different process. When I AE into a record I get :AE PERSON 2362 Top of "2362" in "PERSON", 0 lines. So, it is really empty. I believe there must be a better way than handling every one of them, but I have been away from Unidata and forgotten everything. David Morelli Pacific University Oregon ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Scrub HangUp Fixed
For some odd reason, for all these years that I've lurked here, I've been under the impression that this user group was actually ours, not Rocket's (or whatever corporation has happened to own UD/UV at any given time!). If I'm wrong, then I may be in the wrong place, as I'm very interested in keeping hierarchical bureaucracies at arm's length when it comes to collaboration and problem-solving within a user community. Not that I would ever want to actually shut out Rocket participants, because (as others have expressed) there has been real value there. But the danger with any corporation wholly running their own user group is that they then could engage in censorship activities (for example, people talking about use of third party products that a corporation might consider competitors, etc). And not that Rocket would ever do that, even if U2UG were under their direct corporate auspices, but it's really a matter of principle. I like the idea of having an independent group, even though that means there is no official direct pathway to the corporation through the communication venues U2UG uses. Katie Morgan Datatel Programmer/Analyst Linfield College 900 SE Baker St McMinnville, OR 97128 503.883.2714 kmor...@linfield.edu Datatel Users' Group Governing Board | Client Advocacy Council -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Wjhonson Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 4:31 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Scrub HangUp Fixed A problem that's not submitted through the hierarchical bureaucracy is how I'd express it. The point being that the problem is being submit, through this list. That Rocket chooses not to listen to their own user group for bug submissions, is Rocket's choice, not the user who submitted the bug. Bugs submit here, are vetted, they are vetted here, by other users generally, and even comments such as "yes this has been an issue for many years" etc *should* one might think, include the *vendor* of that software to say "Hey why don't we put in a bug report on this". The vendor themselves can be the contact for all anyone would care, couldn't they? I don't like status quo, for cement's sake. Things change and systems should change to match changing attitudes. Many software companies allow bug reports from a variety of channels, not just one monolithic one :) (Microsoft allows any user to submit a bug report.) -Original Message- From: David L. Wasylenko To: U2 Users List Sent: Fri, Aug 31, 2012 3:57 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Scrub HangUp Fixed AMEN... Rocket has been the most responsive support I've experienced. *SOME* of the folks are a little slow "getting it" initially, but once they understand the problem... it's addressed. They have been very personable, friendly and professional in my experience. However, it's a tad difficult to solve a problem that's not submitted. ... david ... David L. Wasylenko President, Pick Professionals, Inc w) 314 558 1482 d...@pickpro.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Wjhonson Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 4:44 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Scrub HangUp Fixed I can't even read this thread anymore. It just makes me go ballistic this attitude. -Original Message- From: Wally Terhune To: U2 Users List Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 9:53 am Subject: Re: [U2] Scrub HangUp Fixed Rather than raising a stink, it would be best to just open a support case... Without personal knowledge of UV, I haven't been paying much attention to this thread. Wally Terhune Technical Support Engineer Rocket Software 4600 South Ulster Street, Suite 1100 **Denver, CO 80237 **USA t: +1 720 475 8055 **e: wterh...@rocketsoftware.com **w: rocketsoftware.com/u2 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David Wolverton Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:13 AM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Scrub HangUp Fixed Ahahahahahahahahaha!! No!! Stop!! You're killing me!! But seriously... For the good of humanity, it's the duty of every person on the list to raise stinks to Rocket on stupid system behavior like this It's probably not that hard to fix and will avoid the NEXT person from having to live the trauma. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___
Re: [U2] Friday type of question
David, Create an 'I' type dictionary which with this function: < 1 > Top of "REC_LEN" 001: I 002: LEN( @RECORD ) 003: 004: LEN 005: 10R 006: S Select the file with your new dict = 0 SELECT PARTS WITH REC_LEN = "0" Marc Rutherford Principal Programmer Analyst Advanced Bionics LLC 661) 362 1754 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Morelli, David W. Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 4:43 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: [U2] Friday type of question Is there an easy way to determine if a record is empty? I have a saved list of a thousand or more records that have record ID's that interfere with our Ellusian database. If they are truly empty, I can do house cleaning on them. If they contain any data, I have to do a different process. When I AE into a record I get :AE PERSON 2362 Top of "2362" in "PERSON", 0 lines. So, it is really empty. I believe there must be a better way than handling every one of them, but I have been away from Unidata and forgotten everything. David Morelli Pacific University Oregon ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Friday type of question
In the DICT, in an I-descriptor you can specify LEN(@RECORD) If the record has zero length it's empty. -Original Message- From: Morelli, David W. To: U2 Users List Sent: Fri, Aug 31, 2012 4:42 pm Subject: [U2] Friday type of question Is there an easy way to determine if a record is empty? I have a saved list of a thousand or more records that have record ID's that interfere with our Ellusian database. If they are truly empty, I can do house cleaning on them. If they contain any data, I have to do a different process. When I AE into a record I get :AE PERSON 2362 Top of "2362" in "PERSON", 0 lines. So, it is really empty. I believe there must be a better way than handling every one of them, but I have been away from Unidata and forgotten everything. David Morelli Pacific University Oregon ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
[U2] Friday type of question
Is there an easy way to determine if a record is empty? I have a saved list of a thousand or more records that have record ID's that interfere with our Ellusian database. If they are truly empty, I can do house cleaning on them. If they contain any data, I have to do a different process. When I AE into a record I get :AE PERSON 2362 Top of "2362" in "PERSON", 0 lines. So, it is really empty. I believe there must be a better way than handling every one of them, but I have been away from Unidata and forgotten everything. David Morelli Pacific University Oregon ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Scrub HangUp Fixed
A problem that's not submitted through the hierarchical bureaucracy is how I'd express it. The point being that the problem is being submit, through this list. That Rocket chooses not to listen to their own user group for bug submissions, is Rocket's choice, not the user who submitted the bug. Bugs submit here, are vetted, they are vetted here, by other users generally, and even comments such as "yes this has been an issue for many years" etc *should* one might think, include the *vendor* of that software to say "Hey why don't we put in a bug report on this". The vendor themselves can be the contact for all anyone would care, couldn't they? I don't like status quo, for cement's sake. Things change and systems should change to match changing attitudes. Many software companies allow bug reports from a variety of channels, not just one monolithic one :) (Microsoft allows any user to submit a bug report.) -Original Message- From: David L. Wasylenko To: U2 Users List Sent: Fri, Aug 31, 2012 3:57 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Scrub HangUp Fixed AMEN... Rocket has been the most responsive support I've experienced. *SOME* of the folks are a little slow "getting it" initially, but once they understand the problem... it's addressed. They have been very personable, friendly and professional in my experience. However, it's a tad difficult to solve a problem that's not submitted. ... david ... David L. Wasylenko President, Pick Professionals, Inc w) 314 558 1482 d...@pickpro.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Wjhonson Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 4:44 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Scrub HangUp Fixed I can't even read this thread anymore. It just makes me go ballistic this attitude. -Original Message- From: Wally Terhune To: U2 Users List Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 9:53 am Subject: Re: [U2] Scrub HangUp Fixed Rather than raising a stink, it would be best to just open a support case... Without personal knowledge of UV, I haven't been paying much attention to this thread. Wally Terhune Technical Support Engineer Rocket Software 4600 South Ulster Street, Suite 1100 **Denver, CO 80237 **USA t: +1 720 475 8055 **e: wterh...@rocketsoftware.com **w: rocketsoftware.com/u2 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David Wolverton Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:13 AM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Scrub HangUp Fixed Ahahahahahahahahaha!! No!! Stop!! You're killing me!! But seriously... For the good of humanity, it's the duty of every person on the list to raise stinks to Rocket on stupid system behavior like this It's probably not that hard to fix and will avoid the NEXT person from having to live the trauma. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Scrub HangUp Fixed
AMEN... Rocket has been the most responsive support I've experienced. *SOME* of the folks are a little slow "getting it" initially, but once they understand the problem... it's addressed. They have been very personable, friendly and professional in my experience. However, it's a tad difficult to solve a problem that's not submitted. ... david ... David L. Wasylenko President, Pick Professionals, Inc w) 314 558 1482 d...@pickpro.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Wjhonson Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 4:44 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Scrub HangUp Fixed I can't even read this thread anymore. It just makes me go ballistic this attitude. -Original Message- From: Wally Terhune To: U2 Users List Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 9:53 am Subject: Re: [U2] Scrub HangUp Fixed Rather than raising a stink, it would be best to just open a support case... Without personal knowledge of UV, I haven't been paying much attention to this thread. Wally Terhune Technical Support Engineer Rocket Software 4600 South Ulster Street, Suite 1100 **Denver, CO 80237 **USA t: +1 720 475 8055 **e: wterh...@rocketsoftware.com **w: rocketsoftware.com/u2 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David Wolverton Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:13 AM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Scrub HangUp Fixed Ahahahahahahahahaha!! No!! Stop!! You're killing me!! But seriously... For the good of humanity, it's the duty of every person on the list to raise stinks to Rocket on stupid system behavior like this It's probably not that hard to fix and will avoid the NEXT person from having to live the trauma. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] U2 Bug reporting / list monitoring
Not quite succinct, but well said. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: 31 August 2012 19:14 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] U2 Bug reporting / list monitoring Three topics here... > From: Wjhonson 1) > Not support though. Bugs. > In my book, they are opposite ends of the spectrum. > And a company that ignores bug reports because they don't come through > "approved" channels is heading in the direction of Netscape and > Liquid Audio. Questions and answers aren't always simple. The bug you see in your system might only manifest under specific conditions. It takes time to understand those details and then to reproduce the case internally so that a vendor can then fix the problem. Even when you publish details about a bug, a tech needs to verify the information. Usually notes in forums are incomplete - often simply wrong. It takes technicians time to verify, diagnose, reproduce, and log anomalies. Someone must pay the techs for their time. That's what Support/Maintenance fees are for. Sure, sometimes it's a slam-dunk - someone reports a bug and the issue seems like an obvious bug that should get logged and processed. But then comes the question about "why are we doing this?" Can a company justify a product change because "someone in a public forum" reported it? What's the priority of this compared to other reports logged by paying clients? If a paying client doesn't report an issue, might this not be an indication that this is not a serious-enough issue for paying clients, and thus not worth a development effort? On this notion I've had strong arguments with many people - I believe people are often more inclined to leave a platform than to report bugs, so bugs need to be identified and squashed however possible. If the process of reporting issues is too rigorous, That is a separate problem that needs to be addressed with paying clients. All of these things need to be considered, but without following processes, chaos rules. WJ, you're a huge fan of chaos. That simply doesn't work well in the real world. 2) > I agree there are consultants who know tricks and make customers pay > for not only their knowledge of those tricks, but the hours it took them, > perhaps unpaid, to acquire that knowledge. But to make the 20th > customer pay the same hours as the 19th customer did, is really a bit > shocking. As long as people are asking specific questions there will be someone charging for related answers. "Quality" is a factor that can make the 20th answer as valuable as the 1st or the 19th. Information has just as much value to the 20th customer who does not have that information as it did to the 1st customer who did not have that information. As long as there are people out there who perceive "value" in something, there will be others who offer that value at varying prices and with varying degrees of quality. There might be people willing to pay for information because they believe it has value to them. Others will not be willing to pay anything or as much, because to them the information has less value. By offering information for free, because a consultant has earned "enough" for it, he/she is re-defining the value of the specific offering for everyone. The market also redefines value. Pricing based on what consumers will bear has been the basis of trade for thousands of years, and defines the nature of the stock market. Your notion of "shocking" doesn't fit the world as it has existed for millenia. 3) > That *some* people in the professional services world, wish that user > groups didn't exist, so they could keep charging high prices for simple > questions... is perhaps too bad on them. I don't believe anyone has said what you just suggested. Will, this has been an ongoing subtheme of yours for years. Really, anyone can go back into archives and check that we've talked about this many times. You expect other people to do research and then to provide complete, site-specific answers in public forums so that you can then get your customers to pay you for solutions. We're not here to do your research, and those of us who continue to do research every day and night can't pay our own bills if we keep giving away our findings. We use data as raw materials, and manufacture knowledge and context-specific, actionable information as our product. Take your time to manufacture a product and give it away if you wish, but those of us who are not independently wealthy cannot afford to do so, especially for your benefit. So please, once again, stop asking. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users Click https://www.mailcontrol.com/sr/wQw0zmjPoHdJTZGyOCrrhg== !tHfodsaR+!P3M2s8oL93KJZhAszQEBXlqVy4oAFznL6w== to report this email as spam. ---
Re: [U2] U2 Bug reporting / list monitoring
G-man: I suspect it'd be nice if we were all reasonable here. Sometimes a bug is defined as a functionality that doesn't work as expected, and sometimes it's defined as a functionality that doesn't work as expected in a particular environment, and sometimes it's defined as a functionality that doesn't work as expected in all environments. There is a lot of software that doesn't work as expected in all environments. When we find our software utilizing multiple technologies, we have to expect that sometimes it won't work as expected, then try to find out what is it, within the "other technology", that prevents the software from working. Sometimes a fix will work and sometimes not. For instance, many times, in a web browser, we can't do things unless we allow a particular domain to become one of our "Trusted Sites". This is totally a user requirement, but it causes our application's functionality not to work as expected in this environment. Is this a bug? I don't think so. Can I "fix" it? I can create help files on our web site to provide instructions to a user how to fix it. Many other issues, within the technological nightmare we find ourselves in, are far more difficult to track down and resolve, and the "bugs" we find are mostly a configuration issue. :-( I'm always willing to "give-away" any knowledge I have of the MV environment. I'm happy to fix something at my end and publish what I've done. I've always thought that increasing the size of the market has more advantages to everyone than limiting the information "leaked out" to the user and developer base. But...that's just me, and I wouldn't want to insist others to go along with the same view of our dbms environment. If you can make money, fine. If you want to give away solutions fine. That's why we have a "wiki" and why the B&B group wants this all in one location so everyone can benefit, and the market can grow. Just a few thoughts. :-) Bill - Original Message - *From:* 3xk547...@sneakemail.com *To:* u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org *Date:* 8/31/2012 11:13 AM *Subject:* Re: [U2] U2 Bug reporting / list monitoring Three topics here... From: Wjhonson 1) Not support though. Bugs. In my book, they are opposite ends of the spectrum. And a company that ignores bug reports because they don't come through "approved" channels is heading in the direction of Netscape and Liquid Audio. Questions and answers aren't always simple. The bug you see in your system might only manifest under specific conditions. It takes time to understand those details and then to reproduce the case internally so that a vendor can then fix the problem. Even when you publish details about a bug, a tech needs to verify the information. Usually notes in forums are incomplete - often simply wrong. It takes technicians time to verify, diagnose, reproduce, and log anomalies. Someone must pay the techs for their time. That's what Support/Maintenance fees are for. Sure, sometimes it's a slam-dunk - someone reports a bug and the issue seems like an obvious bug that should get logged and processed. But then comes the question about "why are we doing this?" Can a company justify a product change because "someone in a public forum" reported it? What's the priority of this compared to other reports logged by paying clients? If a paying client doesn't report an issue, might this not be an indication that this is not a serious-enough issue for paying clients, and thus not worth a development effort? On this notion I've had strong arguments with many people - I believe people are often more inclined to leave a platform than to report bugs, so bugs need to be identified and squashed however possible. If the process of reporting issues is too rigorous, That is a separate problem that needs to be addressed with paying clients. All of these things need to be considered, but without following processes, chaos rules. WJ, you're a huge fan of chaos. That simply doesn't work well in the real world. 2) I agree there are consultants who know tricks and make customers pay for not only their knowledge of those tricks, but the hours it took them, perhaps unpaid, to acquire that knowledge. But to make the 20th customer pay the same hours as the 19th customer did, is really a bit shocking. As long as people are asking specific questions there will be someone charging for related answers. "Quality" is a factor that can make the 20th answer as valuable as the 1st or the 19th. Information has just as much value to the 20th customer who does not have that information as it did to the 1st customer who did not have that information. As long as there are people out there who perceive "value" in something, there will be others who offer that value at varying prices and with varying degrees of quality. There might be people willing to pay for information because they believe it has
Re: [U2] U2 Bug reporting / list monitoring
Because they want to fix bugs in their product? Really I don't comprehend the line of reasoning that says 1. Our product is defective, and here is a reported defect 2. Support dollars go for *support* not fixing our defected product 3. We won't fix defects unless someone is paying for *support* Support is not bug fixes. If your product has community-perceived *bugs*, then the "dollars" to fix those comes from your *general* fund, not our support dollars. -Original Message- From: Bob Wyatt To: 'U2 Users List' Sent: Fri, Aug 31, 2012 10:13 am Subject: Re: [U2] U2 Bug reporting / list monitoring -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Wjhonson Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 11:48 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] U2 Bug reporting / list monitoring Not support though. Bugs. In my book, they are opposite ends of the spectrum. And a company that ignores bug reports because they don't come through "approved" channels is heading in the direction of Netscape and Liquid Audio. I agree there are consultants who know tricks and make customers pay for not only their knowledge of those tricks, but the hours it took them, perhaps unpaid, to acquire that knowledge. But to make the 20th customer pay the same hours as the 19th customer did, is really a bit shocking. That *some* people in the professional services world, wish that user groups didn't exist, so they could keep charging high prices for simple questions... is perhaps too bad on them. -- In my opinion, you just cannot be this naïve (or is it demanding?). OpenSource is the only arena that comes to mind where this may happen; after all, they have no other feedback channel! Even in this arena, just because you say you have a problem doesnt mean that you get a reply, or that your potential "bug" may eventually be resolved! A potential exception is OpenQM, which offers paid and free versions; however, I'm not sure how they handle the "free" side of the product, and whether forum discussions regarding potential bugs has resulted in product changes for both the free and paid versions... Neither am I familiar with their funding paradigm... If you want bugs fixed on a paid-for product that offers support contracts, buy a support contract. Report the bugs through proper channels. Bugs have to be vetted, which costs someone money. Just because you can reproduce the bug at will on your system doesnt mean that it happens to everyone running the product. Just because more than 1 person in this group may be able to reproduce the bug for you when done precisely as you document it does not mean there is a bug in the product. Just because more than 1 person in this group may be able to reproduce the bug for you when done precisely as you document it does not mean that everyone running the same environment can. Just because you "mention" a potential bug in a group posting but are unwilling to report it through proper channels tells me (if I were a vendor) that the problem is very minor and not worth my time or effort (if I were the vendor) to address it further. Why would Rocket expend yours, mine, and anyone else's support contract $$$ on potentially supporting/vetting/helping users not entitled (not paying for) such support/vetting/helping? What is the take-away when you get a response back from group members that doing it precisely your way fails, but doing it this other way does not - do you or do you not have a potential bug? And why should members of this group be asked to vet your issue(s), who (likely) are being paid to do other things for their employer, or, in the case of consultants, another customer? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] U2 Bug reporting / list monitoring
Three topics here... > From: Wjhonson 1) > Not support though. Bugs. > In my book, they are opposite ends of the spectrum. > And a company that ignores bug reports because they don't come > through "approved" channels is heading in the direction of Netscape and > Liquid Audio. Questions and answers aren't always simple. The bug you see in your system might only manifest under specific conditions. It takes time to understand those details and then to reproduce the case internally so that a vendor can then fix the problem. Even when you publish details about a bug, a tech needs to verify the information. Usually notes in forums are incomplete - often simply wrong. It takes technicians time to verify, diagnose, reproduce, and log anomalies. Someone must pay the techs for their time. That's what Support/Maintenance fees are for. Sure, sometimes it's a slam-dunk - someone reports a bug and the issue seems like an obvious bug that should get logged and processed. But then comes the question about "why are we doing this?" Can a company justify a product change because "someone in a public forum" reported it? What's the priority of this compared to other reports logged by paying clients? If a paying client doesn't report an issue, might this not be an indication that this is not a serious-enough issue for paying clients, and thus not worth a development effort? On this notion I've had strong arguments with many people - I believe people are often more inclined to leave a platform than to report bugs, so bugs need to be identified and squashed however possible. If the process of reporting issues is too rigorous, That is a separate problem that needs to be addressed with paying clients. All of these things need to be considered, but without following processes, chaos rules. WJ, you're a huge fan of chaos. That simply doesn't work well in the real world. 2) > I agree there are consultants who know tricks and make customers pay > for not only their knowledge of those tricks, but the hours it took them, > perhaps unpaid, to acquire that knowledge. But to make the 20th > customer pay the same hours as the 19th customer did, is really a bit > shocking. As long as people are asking specific questions there will be someone charging for related answers. "Quality" is a factor that can make the 20th answer as valuable as the 1st or the 19th. Information has just as much value to the 20th customer who does not have that information as it did to the 1st customer who did not have that information. As long as there are people out there who perceive "value" in something, there will be others who offer that value at varying prices and with varying degrees of quality. There might be people willing to pay for information because they believe it has value to them. Others will not be willing to pay anything or as much, because to them the information has less value. By offering information for free, because a consultant has earned "enough" for it, he/she is re-defining the value of the specific offering for everyone. The market also redefines value. Pricing based on what consumers will bear has been the basis of trade for thousands of years, and defines the nature of the stock market. Your notion of "shocking" doesn't fit the world as it has existed for millenia. 3) > That *some* people in the professional services world, wish that user > groups didn't exist, so they could keep charging high prices for simple > questions... is perhaps too bad on them. I don't believe anyone has said what you just suggested. Will, this has been an ongoing subtheme of yours for years. Really, anyone can go back into archives and check that we've talked about this many times. You expect other people to do research and then to provide complete, site-specific answers in public forums so that you can then get your customers to pay you for solutions. We're not here to do your research, and those of us who continue to do research every day and night can't pay our own bills if we keep giving away our findings. We use data as raw materials, and manufacture knowledge and context-specific, actionable information as our product. Take your time to manufacture a product and give it away if you wish, but those of us who are not independently wealthy cannot afford to do so, especially for your benefit. So please, once again, stop asking. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] U2 Bug reporting / list monitoring
In what world is isolating bug reports from any user a good idea? You're being utterly over dramatic. Just because a user submits a bug report doesn't mean you have to immediately stop all development and put your entire staff on vetting and fixing the bug. I would guess most companies fix common bugs first wouldn't you? Jake -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bob Wyatt Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 12:14 PM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] U2 Bug reporting / list monitoring -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Wjhonson Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 11:48 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] U2 Bug reporting / list monitoring Not support though. Bugs. In my book, they are opposite ends of the spectrum. And a company that ignores bug reports because they don't come through "approved" channels is heading in the direction of Netscape and Liquid Audio. I agree there are consultants who know tricks and make customers pay for not only their knowledge of those tricks, but the hours it took them, perhaps unpaid, to acquire that knowledge. But to make the 20th customer pay the same hours as the 19th customer did, is really a bit shocking. That *some* people in the professional services world, wish that user groups didn't exist, so they could keep charging high prices for simple questions... is perhaps too bad on them. -- In my opinion, you just cannot be this naïve (or is it demanding?). OpenSource is the only arena that comes to mind where this may happen; after all, they have no other feedback channel! Even in this arena, just because you say you have a problem doesn't mean that you get a reply, or that your potential "bug" may eventually be resolved! A potential exception is OpenQM, which offers paid and free versions; however, I'm not sure how they handle the "free" side of the product, and whether forum discussions regarding potential bugs has resulted in product changes for both the free and paid versions... Neither am I familiar with their funding paradigm... If you want bugs fixed on a paid-for product that offers support contracts, buy a support contract. Report the bugs through proper channels. Bugs have to be vetted, which costs someone money. Just because you can reproduce the bug at will on your system doesn't mean that it happens to everyone running the product. Just because more than 1 person in this group may be able to reproduce the bug for you when done precisely as you document it does not mean there is a bug in the product. Just because more than 1 person in this group may be able to reproduce the bug for you when done precisely as you document it does not mean that everyone running the same environment can. Just because you "mention" a potential bug in a group posting but are unwilling to report it through proper channels tells me (if I were a vendor) that the problem is very minor and not worth my time or effort (if I were the vendor) to address it further. Why would Rocket expend yours, mine, and anyone else's support contract $$$ on potentially supporting/vetting/helping users not entitled (not paying for) such support/vetting/helping? What is the take-away when you get a response back from group members that doing it precisely your way fails, but doing it this other way does not - do you or do you not have a potential bug? And why should members of this group be asked to vet your issue(s), who (likely) are being paid to do other things for their employer, or, in the case of consultants, another customer? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] U2 Bug reporting / list monitoring
-Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Wjhonson Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 11:48 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] U2 Bug reporting / list monitoring Not support though. Bugs. In my book, they are opposite ends of the spectrum. And a company that ignores bug reports because they don't come through "approved" channels is heading in the direction of Netscape and Liquid Audio. I agree there are consultants who know tricks and make customers pay for not only their knowledge of those tricks, but the hours it took them, perhaps unpaid, to acquire that knowledge. But to make the 20th customer pay the same hours as the 19th customer did, is really a bit shocking. That *some* people in the professional services world, wish that user groups didn't exist, so they could keep charging high prices for simple questions... is perhaps too bad on them. -- In my opinion, you just cannot be this naïve (or is it demanding?). OpenSource is the only arena that comes to mind where this may happen; after all, they have no other feedback channel! Even in this arena, just because you say you have a problem doesnt mean that you get a reply, or that your potential "bug" may eventually be resolved! A potential exception is OpenQM, which offers paid and free versions; however, I'm not sure how they handle the "free" side of the product, and whether forum discussions regarding potential bugs has resulted in product changes for both the free and paid versions... Neither am I familiar with their funding paradigm... If you want bugs fixed on a paid-for product that offers support contracts, buy a support contract. Report the bugs through proper channels. Bugs have to be vetted, which costs someone money. Just because you can reproduce the bug at will on your system doesnt mean that it happens to everyone running the product. Just because more than 1 person in this group may be able to reproduce the bug for you when done precisely as you document it does not mean there is a bug in the product. Just because more than 1 person in this group may be able to reproduce the bug for you when done precisely as you document it does not mean that everyone running the same environment can. Just because you "mention" a potential bug in a group posting but are unwilling to report it through proper channels tells me (if I were a vendor) that the problem is very minor and not worth my time or effort (if I were the vendor) to address it further. Why would Rocket expend yours, mine, and anyone else's support contract $$$ on potentially supporting/vetting/helping users not entitled (not paying for) such support/vetting/helping? What is the take-away when you get a response back from group members that doing it precisely your way fails, but doing it this other way does not - do you or do you not have a potential bug? And why should members of this group be asked to vet your issue(s), who (likely) are being paid to do other things for their employer, or, in the case of consultants, another customer? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Scrub Fix OutCome
> From: Bill Brutzman > Yesterday... I just released my third HTML app (runs on both mobile + > desktop) that uses ColdFusion to grab UniVerse data to hydrate and > launch pdf forms in the user's browser. The apps/forms... [1] Purchase > Order [2] Invoice [3] Part Inspection... were whipped up with Adobe's > (LiveCycle) Designer. I can now do one (or two) form apps like this in > one day. > > I have not aware of any other technology out there that can do this. You mean in Pick? Back in 2000 I was doing demos with D3 of ColdFusion, PDF forms for data entry, and even pre-Ajax field-level validation in HTML. As to non-Pick, the tools you're talking about are used by many thousands of developers. It's great that MV people are using mainstream technology, and serious kudos for your accomplishments. But it's "mainstream" because everyone else is already doing it. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] U2 Bug reporting / list monitoring
Not support though. Bugs. In my book, they are opposite ends of the spectrum. And a company that ignores bug reports because they don't come through "approved" channels is heading in the direction of Netscape and Liquid Audio. I agree there are consultants who know tricks and make customers pay for not only their knowledge of those tricks, but the hours it took them, perhaps unpaid, to acquire that knowledge. But to make the 20th customer pay the same hours as the 19th customer did, is really a bit shocking. That *some* people in the professional services world, wish that user groups didn't exist, so they could keep charging high prices for simple questions... is perhaps too bad on them. -Original Message- From: Brian Leach To: 'U2 Users List' Sent: Fri, Aug 31, 2012 12:53 am Subject: Re: [U2] U2 Bug reporting / list monitoring Will > So I see no reason really why it cannot be done through *this* channel. Money. People pay for support. This list is free and potentially open to people who don't pay AMC or support. As David rightly says, this is not a Rocket Support Forum and we need to be mindful of that. That's been part of the battle the user group has had with IBM and Rocket over the years, as there are people in professional services who tend to view us as giving away things they would want to charge for (e.g. education, assistance, etc.). We have to keep reminding them that we are ancillary and not a replacement for services. It's got better (and the contributions from people like Wally and Dan are a real bonus and highly appreciated) but words like 'support' are red flags. Of course if members of Rocket who care about the products choose to monitor this list and to feed back any bugs - good on them :) Brian -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Wjhonson Sent: 31 August 2012 02:38 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] U2 Bug reporting / list monitoring That *proactive* approach should be enhanced to include monitoring and logging cases of bugs. You do have the email of the person who reported it, it's posted right here. So I see no reason really why it cannot be done through *this* channel. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Scrub Fix OutCome
David: I am glad to learn now that UV 11 has some major new OBDC things. Yesterday... I just released my third HTML app (runs on both mobile + desktop) that uses ColdFusion to grab UniVerse data to hydrate and launch pdf forms in the user's browser. The apps/forms... [1] Purchase Order [2] Invoice [3] Part Inspection... were whipped up with Adobe's (LiveCycle) Designer. I can now do one (or two) form apps like this in one day. I have not aware of any other technology out there that can do this. --Bill -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Hona, David Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 8:15 AM Subject: Re: [U2] Scrub HangUp Fixed Bill, You make good and valid points. :) To all question posters in general (not directed a Bill): The better the quality of the problem definition and context = the better the quality of the response. As I sometimes jokingly tell my users: All answers are free, but correct answers are cost money. However, dumb and puzzled looks are at no extra charge! I agree, it is difficult to justify the expense of any course - let alone finding the time to attend - even if it is a webinar-style course. Send your suggestion directly to Rocket about posting on that site. They won't know unless you do that. It sounds like you should upgrade to UV11.x to get the most out of ODBC 3.0 compliance and any other bug fixes in UV. Any reason you really need to use ColdFusion? Can some other tool do what you want? Have you turned-on server-side and client-side debugging to pinpoint your issue? Yes, I fumbled across the Dictionary clean-up webinar myself - after seeing an invite to another for U2 .NET Toolkit held the other day. Kind regards, David ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Scrub HangUp Fixed
David: On the back of a Sopranos T-Shirt... it indicates... "Know Your Role". On the front... there is a smoking gun. Of course, U2 is not open-sourced... my goal role is merely that of a pragmatic customer. As Rocket monitors this list to a greater or lesser extent... that is Rocket's business decision. As potentates here in the US have indicated that "corporations are people" and that "as citizens we are united"... Thus, perhaps it makes sense that tech support fixes are for the "good of a corporate humanity" and... Consider listening to the new wave album by Devo... "Duty Now For the Future". --Bill -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David Wolverton Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 12:13 PM ... For the good of humanity, it's the duty of every person on the list to raise stinks to Rocket on stupid system behavior like this It's probably not that hard to fix and will avoid the NEXT person from having to live the trauma. And then we can get back to reminiscing about RQM - the true reason for the list;-) ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Scrub HangUp Fixed
Bill, You make good and valid points. :) To all question posters in general (not directed a Bill): The better the quality of the problem definition and context = the better the quality of the response. As I sometimes jokingly tell my users: All answers are free, but correct answers are cost money. However, dumb and puzzled looks are at no extra charge! I agree, it is difficult to justify the expense of any course - let alone finding the time to attend - even if it is a webinar-style course. Send your suggestion directly to Rocket about posting on that site. They won't know unless you do that. It sounds like you should upgrade to UV11.x to get the most out of ODBC 3.0 compliance and any other bug fixes in UV. Any reason you really need to use ColdFusion? Can some other tool do what you want? Have you turned-on server-side and client-side debugging to pinpoint your issue? Yes, I fumbled across the Dictionary clean-up webinar myself - after seeing an invite to another for U2 .NET Toolkit held the other day. Kind regards, David -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brutzman Sent: Friday, 31 August 2012 1:11 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Scrub HangUp Fixed David: 0. Thanks so much for writing. 1. Yes... same problem on the same file... now fixed. 2. I have read both the Rocket ODBC and JDBC documentation exhaustively... and found these manuals to be rather excellent. 3. I have also had trouble with getting the Rocket JDBC driver to work with Adobe's new release of ColdFusion 10. It is like I have to again write a little Java program to troubleshoot the connection string thing. We may be forced to upgrade our version of UV. 4. Much as I would like to attend all the Rocket UV courses... I find these courses to be pricey and involve serious days and travel. 5. I would like to see Rocket move the courses to Lynda.com or do something similar to Lynda. 6. I am delighted to learn about the seminar... I registered for it. I am surprised that I did not learn about it except through this back door. 7. This list being something of a forum... as I understand it... posts on newbie, intermediate, and advanced questions are all welcome. If the question is directly answerable via an official Rocket manual... then the originator risks suffering the punishment of embarrassment from the respondent who... from some point of view... is following in the traditions of the late William F. Buckley, Jr. 8. The speed of the u2ug forum responses in of course invaluable. --Bill -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Hona, David Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 8:32 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Scrub Hangs Up Is this query related to the one you posted/resolved here: http://listserver.u2ug.org/pipermail/u2-users/2011-July/008153.html Same problem/solution? I kindly suggest that you go on a Rocket UV course to help work out how to get the best from UV. Plus the UV ODBC documentation is quite detailed on the use of HS.SCRUB. So I assume you're followed it's correct used - before you posted this request for help. BTW check this out Rocket U2 Webinar coming soon: http://www.rocketsoftware.com/u2/about/events/dictionary-cleanup-a -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brutzman Sent: Wednesday, 29 August 2012 6:16 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Scrub Hangs Up When I do a >LOGTO HS.ADMIN >HS.ADMIN 5. Run HS.SCRUB on a File/Table.. [F]ix Most of the files here work ok. This one (important) data file INVOICE... it starts an... Analyzing: *and then just sits there. I looked at the dictionary and purged a bunch of extraneous "}" characters from several the NAME fields. I expect to resize the file but... it is not like the file is badly oversized. This is on UniVerse v10.1 running on HP-Ux Itanium. Suggestions would be appreciated. --Bill ** IMPORTANT MESSAGE * This e-mail message is intended only for the addressee(s) and contains information which may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please advise the sender by return email, do not use or disclose the contents, and delete the message and any attachments from your system. Unless specifically indicated, this email does not constitute formal advice or commitment by the sender or the Commonwealth Bank of Australia (ABN 48 123 123 124) or its subsidiaries. We can be contacted through our web site: commbank.com.au. If you no longer wish to receive commercial electronic messages from us, please reply to this e-mail by typing Unsubscribe in the subject line. ** __
Re: [U2] U2 Bug reporting / list monitoring
Will > So I see no reason really why it cannot be done through *this* channel. Money. People pay for support. This list is free and potentially open to people who don't pay AMC or support. As David rightly says, this is not a Rocket Support Forum and we need to be mindful of that. That's been part of the battle the user group has had with IBM and Rocket over the years, as there are people in professional services who tend to view us as giving away things they would want to charge for (e.g. education, assistance, etc.). We have to keep reminding them that we are ancillary and not a replacement for services. It's got better (and the contributions from people like Wally and Dan are a real bonus and highly appreciated) but words like 'support' are red flags. Of course if members of Rocket who care about the products choose to monitor this list and to feed back any bugs - good on them :) Brian -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Wjhonson Sent: 31 August 2012 02:38 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] U2 Bug reporting / list monitoring That *proactive* approach should be enhanced to include monitoring and logging cases of bugs. You do have the email of the person who reported it, it's posted right here. So I see no reason really why it cannot be done through *this* channel. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
