RE: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last
-Original Message- From: Dawn Wolthuis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 4:33 PM To: Brian Leach Cc: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last >> 3. The REAL problem as I see it, is not the fact that topics are sent across to u2-community, but the fact that they die when they get there. > No, I am absolutely certain that is not the real problem ;-) I am also certain, there are some companies, educational institutions, etc that have a problem allowing their users access to any email lists thinking that it may be an abuse of their email or jobs. Real or imagined, they will only allow access to the one u2-users list, some going as far as to only allowing them access to the digest, viewing it through their own portal, or distributing it to the blessed few. It's true they could access it at home or in their dorm but with so many road blocks put up and with so little traffic on the list, it isn't worth the hassle. Jerry --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last
On 9/7/07, Brian Leach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dawn (and fellow list members) > > I appreciate where you're coming from, but > > 1. Please remember that the U2UG are the stewards and not the owners of this > list. The U2UG has agreed to run the lists according to the wishes of the > list membership, but the Board has no mandate to decide on the policies of > the list, or which lists should come and go. That does not quite align with my recollections, Brian. Clif was the former trustee and moderator and he turned that responsibility over to the U2UG so that the board formed a list moderation sub-committee. So, I believe that Chuck B. works with the instructions set by the U2UG board sub-committee, which is tasked with the responsibility for such policies by the u2-users membership. As a member of the u2-users list and of U2UG, it seems that several of us would like the policies changed, so I asked the board, whose subcommittee handles such policies, to take this up, assuming that the board is willing to do so. > 2. Like most of us, I've been a member of the lists longer than the U2UG has > been around, and I remember the situation that led to the u2-community being > formed. There was a lot of ill-will and some ugly postings from those > complaining about the signal to noise ratio. Today, with the very occasional > exception, we have a well moderated and courteous list of which we can all be > proud. As Clif mentioned, many of those who complained have either left the list, have better toolsets now, or have refined their skills in quickly filtering for those postings of interest. So, I think it makes sense to revisit this, and I am pretty sure that is the right of the board to do so. > 3. The REAL problem as I see it, is not the fact that topics are sent across > to u2-community, but the fact that they die when they get there. No, I am absolutely certain that is not the real problem ;-) > I would rather see the u2-community list being actively used, I am guessing, but not quite as certain, that this will never happen. > with more traffic and discussions taking place about what is happening in our > community (and welcoming all kinds of topics), which is what it was designed > for. > > The only problem with u2-community is that too many on THIS list don't bother > to subscribe to it and keep any useful topics alive. > > 4. As for the AD in the subject line: it is a useful convenience that makes > it easy to filter the mail by subject line. So those who don't want to see > them can choose to filter them out. Those of us who do, can continue to read > them without having to skip tags in the messages themselves. Which should > keep everyone happy all round (apart from a few curmudgeonly old malcontents > ). But it's not enough of an issue to rewrite the rule book over. I agree, but I saw the issue being addressed as one related to excessive moderation, not due to Chuck's attempts to enforce the guidelines, but due to the guidelines themselves. I think it is time to rewrite the rules, kill u2-community, and make u2-users the community. One cannot say to a non-virtual group (one where people see each other) that is working on any issues, including very serious ones, that they should do so without any community building at all, no smiles, no winks, no meta-discussions, but that another group could be formed for those who want to do community building for this group. That is just nonsensical and not likely to work. If I am in the minority in this opinion, then turn it down, but I suspect that the list would be well-served by these slight revisions to the policies. I told Chuck B that I didn't like the feeling of a list where I might get shut down with just about any topic of interest to me, all of which would be related to U2. He asked if I was afraid of him and I said that was not the issue, but that it was a real downer, whether the right word would be humiliating or something short of that, to have your conversation cut off. It makes for an unfriendly list, in my opinion. I'm a girl, however, and given recent research on differences in brain activity, it is possible that is relevant. Cheers --dawn > My (rapidly decreasing in real terms) 2 pence. > > Brian > -- Dawn M. Wolthuis Tincat Group, Inc. Take and give some delight today --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last
Dawn (and fellow list members) I appreciate where you're coming from, but 1. Please remember that the U2UG are the stewards and not the owners of this list. The U2UG has agreed to run the lists according to the wishes of the list membership, but the Board has no mandate to decide on the policies of the list, or which lists should come and go. 2. Like most of us, I've been a member of the lists longer than the U2UG has been around, and I remember the situation that led to the u2-community being formed. There was a lot of ill-will and some ugly postings from those complaining about the signal to noise ratio. Today, with the very occasional exception, we have a well moderated and courteous list of which we can all be proud. 3. The REAL problem as I see it, is not the fact that topics are sent across to u2-community, but the fact that they die when they get there. I would rather see the u2-community list being actively used, with more traffic and discussions taking place about what is happening in our community (and welcoming all kinds of topics), which is what it was designed for. The only problem with u2-community is that too many on THIS list don't bother to subscribe to it and keep any useful topics alive. 4. As for the AD in the subject line: it is a useful convenience that makes it easy to filter the mail by subject line. So those who don't want to see them can choose to filter them out. Those of us who do, can continue to read them without having to skip tags in the messages themselves. Which should keep everyone happy all round (apart from a few curmudgeonly old malcontents ). But it's not enough of an issue to rewrite the rule book over. My (rapidly decreasing in real terms) 2 pence. Brian --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last Week In Denver
BTW -- if ALL you want is strictly technical information -- then RTFM, Tech Connect etc...I use this list to ask others for help regarding their personal experience and opinions on subject matters where I could not get the answers via those previously mentioned methods. If the answer includes suggestions on third party tools...then that may be truly the answer I was seeking. -- Debster -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >sigh< Jeee -- I cannot believe all this turmoil Dawn has pretty much laid out the way I feel -- I have a headache so I won't be as nice This IS supposed to be a community...so why the need for a separation in lists? Community members interact in many different ways... You CAN read, so if you scan the subject line and have no need for the info -- skip it -- and grow up -- if its U2 related in any way shape or form it may be useful to someone else even if you consider it an "advertisement". If you deem that the subject line was misleading...unless you have severely limited brain activity I am sure you can surmise that after the first line or two. Restricting the list in a tight fisted mode is nothing short of removing "yst" from Analyst... If it's an advertisement regarding where to score some viagra -- well then that would be spam and that is what Chuck has realm over filtering it out. It's a pain watching over multiple lists -- been there, done that, monitored a forum on comp-u-snot years ago [gawd I'm dating myself] Tag schmag...how many of you have really looked at the tag verus the remaining subject line? If you subscribe to both do you really segregate the lists by them so you don't inadvertently open the wrong one? [if you do -- then I have a game by Milton-Bradley for you to buy-- LIFE] A little laughter never hurt anyone...sometimes it's what you need to lighten the mood when you are pulling your hair out over something heavy on the brain.. Ok going off on week long threads on silly stuff can be a bit much, but once again..if you are tired of the joke...SKIP IT One suggestion -- simply "going to the well" for information on a particular subject could use improved indexing and search functions. I have NEVER been able to extrapolate information from this list via a search...it's aggravating because, just like Prego...I know its in there! -- Debster -- Original message -- From: "Dawn Wolthuis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Thanks for the history and mini-rant, Clif. While little differences > of opinion like this recent one are common in e-mail communities, this > type might be classified as the type found in communities that have > more lock-down rules and are moderated in a way similar to ours. > > This might seem like a big leap, but I think my recommendation below > is oddly related to the current chatter. Before stating this very > risky recommendation (for me), I want to be clear and open on a few > matters: > > 1) the following recommendation has a self-interest so that I can, > once again, feel free to post to this list, one where I once enjoyed > the interactions, but > > 2) this is not a recom mendation that is exclusively out of > self-interest. Even if I never post again, I think this will help > u2-users be an even better community. As a past president and one of > the founders of the U2UG, I would like to see a thriving, successful > community of MV professionals here, with everyone who is interested > feeling free to chat about relevant topics and even community-building > topics that might be slightly to the side. > > 3) I will mention again that while I still have connections to U2 and > am still a customer of the personal edition, I am focused on > InterSystems Cache' right now, so like others on the list who might be > working with OpenQM, jBASE, D3, Revelation, or other flavors of > MultiValue as their primary toolset, my interests are not the same as > someone with a U2 production printer problem, corrupt file, or looking > for best practices for 24/7 with UniData , for example. I continue to > do research on data models as one of my hobbies, however (exciting > life I lead, eh?), in particular the relational model and Pick (aka > the Nelson-Pick model, aka the MultiValue model) and have an interest > in all aspects of MV and the MV community. > > Recommendation: I recommend that u2-community be closed down and that > all with any interest in U2, whether as consultants, 3rd party > vendors, VARs, end-customers, DBAs, systems analysts, network > administrators, researchers, magazine editors, conference planners, or > with any other angle are free to jump in and contribute. > > I further recommend that the moderators be free to focus on such > matters as real abuses of the list, such as spammers or people who are > truly offensive to the majority of readers with their postings, along > with a regular posting o
Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last Week In Denver
>sigh< Jeee -- I cannot believe all this turmoil Dawn has pretty much laid out the way I feel -- I have a headache so I won't be as nice This IS supposed to be a community...so why the need for a separation in lists? Community members interact in many different ways... You CAN read, so if you scan the subject line and have no need for the info -- skip it -- and grow up -- if its U2 related in any way shape or form it may be useful to someone else even if you consider it an "advertisement". If you deem that the subject line was misleading...unless you have severely limited brain activity I am sure you can surmise that after the first line or two. Restricting the list in a tight fisted mode is nothing short of removing "yst" from Analyst... If it's an advertisement regarding where to score some viagra -- well then that would be spam and that is what Chuck has realm over filtering it out. It's a pain watching over multiple lists -- been there, done that, monitored a forum on comp-u-snot years ago [gawd I'm dating myself] Tag schmag...how many of you have really looked at the tag verus the remaining subject line? If you subscribe to both do you really segregate the lists by them so you don't inadvertently open the wrong one? [if you do -- then I have a game by Milton-Bradley for you to buy-- LIFE] A little laughter never hurt anyone...sometimes it's what you need to lighten the mood when you are pulling your hair out over something heavy on the brain.. Ok going off on week long threads on silly stuff can be a bit much, but once again..if you are tired of the joke...SKIP IT One suggestion -- simply "going to the well" for information on a particular subject could use improved indexing and search functions. I have NEVER been able to extrapolate information from this list via a search...it's aggravating because, just like Prego...I know its in there! -- Debster -- Original message -- From: "Dawn Wolthuis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Thanks for the history and mini-rant, Clif. While little differences > of opinion like this recent one are common in e-mail communities, this > type might be classified as the type found in communities that have > more lock-down rules and are moderated in a way similar to ours. > > This might seem like a big leap, but I think my recommendation below > is oddly related to the current chatter. Before stating this very > risky recommendation (for me), I want to be clear and open on a few > matters: > > 1) the following recommendation has a self-interest so that I can, > once again, feel free to post to this list, one where I once enjoyed > the interactions, but > > 2) this is not a recommendation that is exclusively out of > self-interest. Even if I never post again, I think this will help > u2-users be an even better community. As a past president and one of > the founders of the U2UG, I would like to see a thriving, successful > community of MV professionals here, with everyone who is interested > feeling free to chat about relevant topics and even community-building > topics that might be slightly to the side. > > 3) I will mention again that while I still have connections to U2 and > am still a customer of the personal edition, I am focused on > InterSystems Cache' right now, so like others on the list who might be > working with OpenQM, jBASE, D3, Revelation, or other flavors of > MultiValue as their primary toolset, my interests are not the same as > someone with a U2 production printer problem, corrupt file, or looking > for best practices for 24/7 with UniData, for example. I continue to > do research on data models as one of my hobbies, however (exciting > life I lead, eh?), in particular the relational model and Pick (aka > the Nelson-Pick model, aka the MultiValue model) and have an interest > in all aspects of MV and the MV community. > > Recommendation: I recommend that u2-community be closed down and that > all with any interest in U2, whether as consultants, 3rd party > vendors, VARs, end-customers, DBAs, systems analysts, network > administrators, researchers, magazine editors, conference planners, or > with any other angle are free to jump in and contribute. > > I further recommend that the moderators be free to focus on such > matters as real abuses of the list, such as spammers or people who are > truly offensive to the majority of readers with their postings, along > with a regular posting of a FAQ, perhaps, with such items as > requesting that folks put [AD] at the start of a subject line if they > are doing a blatant ad and are free to skip it if not. If someone > keeps forgetting this, they could be cyber-spanked (thanks for letting > us know you coined that one, Clif) off-list before getting to an > on-list notification. > > End of Recommendation > > Each time a moderator says something on the list, doing their jobs as > they have been inst
RE: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last
Being quite libertarian in my ideology these days (I'm sure it does have something to do with aging, Clif ;-), my inclination is toward a more free-wheeling approach as well. Modern email clients being what they are, it's not difficult for each individual to set up twit-filters, etc. to lower the noise-to-signal ratio to his/her personal preference. I don't even consider recommending third party products to be an "ad" necessarily, unless the poster stands to benefit financially from recommending the product (i.e. it's their own product, or they are reselling it). In those cases, etiquette suggests that the poster should disclose that fact. Whether that disclosure is in the form of [AD][/AD] tags or some other disclaimer I leave to the group's decision. Larry Hiscock Moderator --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last
I've always considered you a sensible voice, Clif, and you came through on this one. Because the U2UG is the trustee of the list, and because I think this e-mail will get to many of the board members without e-mail them individually, I will simply copy Brian Leach, the President of the U2UG, and request that this matter be taken up at the next meeting, if feasible. Prior to that time, perhaps we can use an informal means of changing, however slightly, the rules of the game, e.g. -- a) no [AD] is required in the subject line, although it may be used (I have never had problems determining whether someone was making pitch or not, but might want to hide behind one if I know I am advertising a product or service) b) no meta-conversations (conversations about the list) are relegated to the trash bin (u2-community) as people can simply ignore them c) topics about theory, questions to the group, musings on related subjects will not be shut down by moderators, even if some on the list might feel free to indicate a lack of interest (self-moderating approach) d) only spam and blatant abusers of the list, unrelated to the broader mv community (which was the playground where the U2UG wanted to play, pretty much aligning with the interests of various members of this list) would be shut down by the moderators, offlist when feasible and removing posting privileges where necessary, while reporting any such removal to the list (so that the moderators do not start shutting out people that others would like around, for example). Thanks for the responses and thanks to Clif for agreeing that the time has come to move on from the u2-community approach. Cheers! --dawn On 9/6/07, Clifton Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I already explained the reason the U2 Community list was started. It > was an attempt to keep the Monty Python jokes and other non-technical > discussions from running off a core group of technical people who > were providing the vast majority of answers to problems with the > products. Those people are gone, having moved on to other things and > other companies. Although it seemed right (to me and others) at the > time, I'm not sure it ever worked particularly well. > > As I've aged, I've also become more libertarian in my world view. As > just another user these days, I'd say shutdown u2-community. As to > content on u2-users, I agree with the idea of letting things free- > wheel, except when things get abusive. A lot less work for the > moderator(s), too. The technical people with either stay or they won't. > > Tagging was another idea borrowed from other lists that was well- > intended, but as we have seen, doesn't seem to work very well. In > part, that is because "to tag or not to tag" is a question of > opinion. Take the statement, "You can use U2 connection pooling, .NET > pooling, or a product like mv.NET (call Fred for info), then you can > etc." Some people would insist it be tagged just because it mentions > a third-party product as a potential solution. Others would say it > needed to be tagged because it committed the capital crime of > soliciting business (call Fred for info). And others see it as not > requiring a tag because, in their opinion, "call Fred for info" is, > in and of itself, one of several potential solutions presented. > > These days, I agree with Jeff. I'm in favor of eliminating all > tagging, except for the listserver tag in the subject line which > assists with filtering into folders. Let people write what they want > to write. Let each individual decide what the noise-to-signal ratio > is *for them*. If there are enough kernels that interest them, > they'll stay. If anything of a non-technical nature bugs them, > they'll leave, taking their potential technical knowledge with them. > > The list will find its own level. It will either continue to be a > technical resource, or it won't. It will either continue to exit, or > it will fade away and die. That might be sad for some, but it's okay. > Everything does, eventually. Or it might morph into something more > useful than we are thinking about at this point. > > I think that's called "evolution." > > That's my "vote." I'm done. > > > -- > > Regards, > > Clif > > ~~~ > W. Clifton Oliver, CCP > CLIFTON OLIVER & ASSOCIATES > Tel: +1 619 460 5678Web: www.oliver.com > ~~~ > > > On Sep 6, 2007, at 10:06 AM, Marc Harbeson wrote: > > > That is my point with the suggestion that we eliminate > > u2-community and permit discussions like this one > --- > u2-users mailing list > u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org > To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last
I've been reading these posts a bit. Etiquette dictates that posts which are blatant advertisements for the sole purpose of marketing should be, at a minimum, prefixed with one of the appropriate subject markers. There aren't many posts here that are solely marketing lures. I have seen many teasers, though here and on CDP. Those are fine, IMO, unless they are extremely short on content and continually show up across multiple threads for the unquestionable purpose of getting business. It's not fair to those who can offer similar services or products, for one or two individuals to constantly pollute the list with such teasers and invitations for business. I'm not saying it's bad to say, "hey.. I've done that before, give me a call and we'll talk about it." I'm saying when someone asks if something is doable, the responding poster should provide more public information than "call me, I can do it for you." Perhaps a short informative paragraph regarding what technologies were used and how they are generally put together should be considered required. That way, other consultants can discuss contrary technologies or methods of accomplishing the same goals. The originating poster can then better decide where to go with the questions, depending on their specific situation. Glen --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last
I'm totally with Clif on this. I subscribe because there are a few nuggets that I grab onto and save. Most of the stuff that passes by really doesn't affect or interest me, but I just skim and delete it using my adult reasoning capacity - the same adult reasoning capacity that allows me to distinguish a sales pitch or opinion from information. BTW, I really don't care what anyone else's opinion is of SQL, Relational Databases, Cobb, coding style, editors, Unix, Windows, politics, etc, etc, etc. In fact, I find most of that irritating and condescending. When I get too tired of having to filter it out, I will unsubscribe. Dick Kryka Director of Applications Paragon Financial Services a Division of Money Management International 303-632-2226 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- I already explained the reason the U2 Community list was started. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last
1. Vendors. I have appreciated any post I see from Tony Gravagno, Doug Averch, Jeff Fitzgerald, Dawn Wolthius, Susan Joslyn, IBM people promoting U2 features or classes (yes, same standard applies to IBM), and any other vendor/consultant in our market. B. The moderator's job is not pleasant and I wholeheartedly thank Chuck B for his effort. Clif before him. III. I like [AD] on the subject line if that's the primary purpose of the post. I do not like the , pseudo-xml & -html silliness in the middle of posts. If [AD] is missing from the subject line and I think it should have been there, I raise my substantial eyebrows a notch. It flavours how I receive said ad. Blatant repeat offenders can be reprimanded, but they've already dug their own pit. Vendors responding to questions about their products is not an [AD]. Vendors taking the opportunity of a general question to tout how their product or service will solve the problem is welcome, but should probably be referred to as [AD]. I wish we had more [AD] postings. d. u2-users is not only for just deep diving technical questions, but for any _serious_ discussion of any topic related to our niche of the IT industry. (Including this meta-discussion.) Dawn says she doesn't feel free to post, but I can't think of anything that she would post that I would not welcome. (5) U2-community was originally created to weed out the non-serious degeneration of threads into Monty Python gags, etymologies (I plead guilty), politics, etc.. If you want water-cooler conversation go to u2-community. Maybe we should have named it "u2-WaterCooler". The Noise:Signal ratio before the split was intolerable to many and I truly believe we lost list members because of it. I think we waited too long to split because the list members who were with or enjoyed the frivolity were the wrong people to ask. We really needed to ask the people who DIDN'T join. I think we do need to continue to separate out mere frivolity; Bah! Humbug! Six. Lighten up. With malice toward none, with charity for all (Lincoln), Chuck S --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last
I already explained the reason the U2 Community list was started. It was an attempt to keep the Monty Python jokes and other non-technical discussions from running off a core group of technical people who were providing the vast majority of answers to problems with the products. Those people are gone, having moved on to other things and other companies. Although it seemed right (to me and others) at the time, I'm not sure it ever worked particularly well. As I've aged, I've also become more libertarian in my world view. As just another user these days, I'd say shutdown u2-community. As to content on u2-users, I agree with the idea of letting things free- wheel, except when things get abusive. A lot less work for the moderator(s), too. The technical people with either stay or they won't. Tagging was another idea borrowed from other lists that was well- intended, but as we have seen, doesn't seem to work very well. In part, that is because "to tag or not to tag" is a question of opinion. Take the statement, "You can use U2 connection pooling, .NET pooling, or a product like mv.NET (call Fred for info), then you can etc." Some people would insist it be tagged just because it mentions a third-party product as a potential solution. Others would say it needed to be tagged because it committed the capital crime of soliciting business (call Fred for info). And others see it as not requiring a tag because, in their opinion, "call Fred for info" is, in and of itself, one of several potential solutions presented. These days, I agree with Jeff. I'm in favor of eliminating all tagging, except for the listserver tag in the subject line which assists with filtering into folders. Let people write what they want to write. Let each individual decide what the noise-to-signal ratio is *for them*. If there are enough kernels that interest them, they'll stay. If anything of a non-technical nature bugs them, they'll leave, taking their potential technical knowledge with them. The list will find its own level. It will either continue to be a technical resource, or it won't. It will either continue to exit, or it will fade away and die. That might be sad for some, but it's okay. Everything does, eventually. Or it might morph into something more useful than we are thinking about at this point. I think that's called "evolution." That's my "vote." I'm done. -- Regards, Clif ~~~ W. Clifton Oliver, CCP CLIFTON OLIVER & ASSOCIATES Tel: +1 619 460 5678Web: www.oliver.com ~~~ On Sep 6, 2007, at 10:06 AM, Marc Harbeson wrote: That is my point with the suggestion that we eliminate u2-community and permit discussions like this one --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last
A, I would caution you not to be naive on this point. Until Chuck, Clif, Brian, and maybe the U2UG board declare u2-community dead and the moderating rules that send people there to be dead, this puppy is still alive (or was that a horse?) Cheers! --dawn On 9/6/07, Karen Bessel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hey People!! > > The horse has officially been pronounced dead, so enough already. > --- > u2-users mailing list > u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org > To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ > -- Dawn M. Wolthuis Tincat Group, Inc. Take and give some delight today --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last
I agree as well. Am a little more on the fence when it comes to rules: yes, some basic ones are needed; no, not that many. But where you draw the line is likely to become an almost personal matter. The present flurry of e-mails on the subject is in response to what, considering my experience of the list, is a rare combination of posts content and monitoring actions. So my take is also: this too shall pass. Laure Hansen, City of Redwood City Information Technology 1017 Middlefield Road Redwood City, CA 94063 Tel 650-780-7087 Fax 650-556-9204 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marc Harbeson Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 10:06 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last I think it's kind of silly to have 2 lists, and silly rules about what can be discussed where. I agree that topics can be ignored based on subject line alone. Other list servers I'm on - this is not an issue. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dawn Wolthuis Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 12:23 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last I agree, Jeff. That is my point with the suggestion that we eliminate u2-community and permit discussions like this one, even if not of interest to all. Let's move back/forward to a list where we permit discussions on all related topics and let people filter it themselves. Does anyone else agree with that or is this u2-community as a way to kill discussions and moderators needing to jump in too often due to all the rules (the moderators are just doing their jobs as defined), the way we want to run it? If I hear only silence, I will figure that I am in the minority with this opinion. Cheers! --dawn On 9/6/07, Moderator <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > REPOSTED FOR NON-MEMBER ADDRESS: "Support Mailbox" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Bounce Notice: If you read this list through Indexfocus, Nabble, or > any other replicator - and you would like to be able to participate - sign up directly with us. Here's all you need to know: To subscribe or resubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/. > > > Clif, well said! As always you are able to illuminate a murky topic with the light of reason. Thanks! > > I appreciate the time and effort that the past and present list moderators have contributed to making the list such a valuable tool. > BIG THANKS! > > As a consumer I find myself feeling offended by the [AD] [\AD] tagging stuff. It's as though I'm too stupid to recognize the nature of a post unless it's tagged for me. Should we also require posters to use tags to separate their opinions from proven fact - [OPINION] [\OPINION]. Or possibly [JOKE] [\JOKE] to alert readers to humor in posts? > > I think the list needs some clear rules -- for instance, "no porn" seems like a good one and easily to apply. Over and above a few clear rules, I say let the list members post what they want to! I know where the Delete key is. > > Jeff Fitzgerald > Fitzgerald & Long, Inc. > --- > u2-users mailing list > u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org > To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ > -- Dawn M. Wolthuis Tincat Group, Inc. Take and give some delight today --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/983 - Release Date: 9/1/2007 4:20 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/983 - Release Date: 9/1/2007 4:20 PM --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last
I agree, there should be 1 list. Regards, Noah -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dawn Wolthuis Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 9:23 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last I agree, Jeff. That is my point with the suggestion that we eliminate u2-community and permit discussions like this one, even if not of interest to all. Let's move back/forward to a list where we permit discussions on all related topics and let people filter it themselves. Does anyone else agree with that or is this u2-community as a way to kill discussions and moderators needing to jump in too often due to all the rules (the moderators are just doing their jobs as defined), the way we want to run it? If I hear only silence, I will figure that I am in the minority with this opinion. Cheers! --dawn On 9/6/07, Moderator <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > REPOSTED FOR NON-MEMBER ADDRESS: "Support Mailbox" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Bounce Notice: If you read this list through Indexfocus, Nabble, or > any other replicator - and you would like to be able to participate - sign up directly with us. Here's all you need to know: To subscribe or resubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/. > > > Clif, well said! As always you are able to illuminate a murky topic with the light of reason. Thanks! > > I appreciate the time and effort that the past and present list moderators have contributed to making the list such a valuable tool. > BIG THANKS! > > As a consumer I find myself feeling offended by the [AD] [\AD] tagging stuff. It's as though I'm too stupid to recognize the nature of a post unless it's tagged for me. Should we also require posters to use tags to separate their opinions from proven fact - [OPINION] [\OPINION]. Or possibly [JOKE] [\JOKE] to alert readers to humor in posts? > > I think the list needs some clear rules -- for instance, "no porn" seems like a good one and easily to apply. Over and above a few clear rules, I say let the list members post what they want to! I know where the Delete key is. > > Jeff Fitzgerald > Fitzgerald & Long, Inc. > --- > u2-users mailing list > u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org > To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ > -- Dawn M. Wolthuis Tincat Group, Inc. Take and give some delight today --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose, or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last
> If I hear only silence, I will figure that > I am in the minority with this opinion. Cheers! --dawn I'm of the 'delete it if you don't like it' camp. Steve Ferries TCR --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last
Hey People!! The horse has officially been pronounced dead, so enough already. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last
I think it's kind of silly to have 2 lists, and silly rules about what can be discussed where. I agree that topics can be ignored based on subject line alone. Other list servers I'm on - this is not an issue. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dawn Wolthuis Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 12:23 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last I agree, Jeff. That is my point with the suggestion that we eliminate u2-community and permit discussions like this one, even if not of interest to all. Let's move back/forward to a list where we permit discussions on all related topics and let people filter it themselves. Does anyone else agree with that or is this u2-community as a way to kill discussions and moderators needing to jump in too often due to all the rules (the moderators are just doing their jobs as defined), the way we want to run it? If I hear only silence, I will figure that I am in the minority with this opinion. Cheers! --dawn On 9/6/07, Moderator <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > REPOSTED FOR NON-MEMBER ADDRESS: "Support Mailbox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Bounce Notice: If you read this list through Indexfocus, Nabble, or any other > replicator - and you would like to be able to participate - sign up directly > with us. Here's all you need to know: To subscribe or > resubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/. > > > Clif, well said! As always you are able to illuminate a murky topic with the > light of reason. Thanks! > > I appreciate the time and effort that the past and present list moderators > have contributed to making the list such a valuable tool. > BIG THANKS! > > As a consumer I find myself feeling offended by the [AD] [\AD] tagging stuff. > It's as though I'm too stupid to recognize the nature of a post unless it's > tagged for me. Should we also require posters to use tags to separate their > opinions from proven fact - [OPINION] [\OPINION]. Or possibly [JOKE] [\JOKE] > to alert readers to humor in posts? > > I think the list needs some clear rules -- for instance, "no porn" seems like > a good one and easily to apply. Over and above a few clear rules, I say let > the list members post what they want to! I know where the Delete key is. > > Jeff Fitzgerald > Fitzgerald & Long, Inc. > --- > u2-users mailing list > u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org > To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ > -- Dawn M. Wolthuis Tincat Group, Inc. Take and give some delight today --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/983 - Release Date: 9/1/2007 4:20 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/983 - Release Date: 9/1/2007 4:20 PM --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last
Dawn, I fully agree with you. I do belong to the u2-community list and from experience I can say that if a discussion is sent to community you may as well just say end of discussion. And, I have seen some discussions that should have been continued but died in this way. Jerry -Original Message- From: Dawn Wolthuis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:23 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last I agree, Jeff. That is my point with the suggestion that we eliminate u2-community and permit discussions like this one, even if not of interest to all. Let's move back/forward to a list where we permit discussions on all related topics and let people filter it themselves. Does anyone else agree with that or is this u2-community as a way to kill discussions and moderators needing to jump in too often due to all the rules (the moderators are just doing their jobs as defined), the way we want to run it? If I hear only silence, I will figure that I am in the minority with this opinion. Cheers! --dawn --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last
I agree, Jeff. That is my point with the suggestion that we eliminate u2-community and permit discussions like this one, even if not of interest to all. Let's move back/forward to a list where we permit discussions on all related topics and let people filter it themselves. Does anyone else agree with that or is this u2-community as a way to kill discussions and moderators needing to jump in too often due to all the rules (the moderators are just doing their jobs as defined), the way we want to run it? If I hear only silence, I will figure that I am in the minority with this opinion. Cheers! --dawn On 9/6/07, Moderator <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > REPOSTED FOR NON-MEMBER ADDRESS: "Support Mailbox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Bounce Notice: If you read this list through Indexfocus, Nabble, or any other > replicator - and you would like to be able to participate - sign up directly > with us. Here's all you need to know: To subscribe or > resubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/. > > > Clif, well said! As always you are able to illuminate a murky topic with the > light of reason. Thanks! > > I appreciate the time and effort that the past and present list moderators > have contributed to making the list such a valuable tool. > BIG THANKS! > > As a consumer I find myself feeling offended by the [AD] [\AD] tagging stuff. > It's as though I'm too stupid to recognize the nature of a post unless it's > tagged for me. Should we also require posters to use tags to separate their > opinions from proven fact - [OPINION] [\OPINION]. Or possibly [JOKE] [\JOKE] > to alert readers to humor in posts? > > I think the list needs some clear rules -- for instance, "no porn" seems like > a good one and easily to apply. Over and above a few clear rules, I say let > the list members post what they want to! I know where the Delete key is. > > Jeff Fitzgerald > Fitzgerald & Long, Inc. > --- > u2-users mailing list > u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org > To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ > -- Dawn M. Wolthuis Tincat Group, Inc. Take and give some delight today --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last
I've never subscribed to U2-community, and probably won't. I prefer the discussions to be on this list and have learned how to filter/delete as necessary. I feel like I'm going to miss something when a discussion is asked to move . . . I didn't realize that list wasn't active, much... I agree Dawn, and hope something moves somewhere. As an email group server owner/administrator myself, I don't envy the moderators work-load. I've not volunteered for this group because I have enough of my own to do, and as asked before, "Have you ever gotten any clients/benefits from running the list?" my answer is 'Not a bit'. I do it for my wife, who does a lot more work than I do... My 2 cents, worth both pennies, too. Karl > I agree, Jeff. That is my point with the suggestion that we eliminate > u2-community and permit discussions like this one, even if not of > interest to all. Let's move back/forward to a list where we permit > discussions on all related topics and let people filter it themselves. > > Does anyone else agree with that or is this u2-community as a way to > kill discussions and moderators needing to jump in too often due to > all the rules (the moderators are just doing their jobs as defined), > the way we want to run it? If I hear only silence, I will figure that > I am in the minority with this opinion. Cheers! --dawn > > On 9/6/07, Moderator <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> REPOSTED FOR NON-MEMBER ADDRESS: "Support Mailbox" >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> >> Bounce Notice: If you read this list through Indexfocus, Nabble, or any >> other replicator - and you would like to be able to participate - sign >> up directly with us. Here's all you need to know: To subscribe or >> resubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/. >> >> >> Clif, well said! As always you are able to illuminate a murky topic >> with the light of reason. Thanks! >> >> I appreciate the time and effort that the past and present list >> moderators have contributed to making the list such a valuable tool. >> BIG THANKS! >> >> As a consumer I find myself feeling offended by the [AD] [\AD] tagging >> stuff. It's as though I'm too stupid to recognize the nature of a post >> unless it's tagged for me. Should we also require posters to use tags >> to separate their opinions from proven fact - [OPINION] [\OPINION]. Or >> possibly [JOKE] [\JOKE] to alert readers to humor in posts? >> >> I think the list needs some clear rules -- for instance, "no porn" seems >> like a good one and easily to apply. Over and above a few clear rules, >> I say let the list members post what they want to! I know where the >> Delete key is. >> >> Jeff Fitzgerald >> Fitzgerald & Long, Inc. >> --- >> u2-users mailing list >> u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org >> To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ >> > > > -- > Dawn M. Wolthuis > Tincat Group, Inc. > > Take and give some delight today > --- > u2-users mailing list > u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org > To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ > -- Karl Pearson Director of I.T. ATS Industrial Supply, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.atsindustrial.com 800-789-9300 x29 Local: 801-978-4429 Fax: 801-972-3888 "To mess up your Linux PC, you have to really work at it; to mess up a microsoft PC you just have to work on it." --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last Week In Denver
You hit the nail on the head Dawn. If I am unable to determine that a thread is a waste of my time, and thus delete the whole thing, maybe I'm the one with the problem. I do it all the time, though I do tend to look at the 6th or 7th posting to see if the thread has morphed into something else. :-) Bruce Bruce M Neylon Health Care Management Group > > Recommendation: I recommend that u2-community be closed down and that > all with any interest in U2, whether as consultants, 3rd party > vendors, VARs, end-customers, DBAs, systems analysts, network > administrators, researchers, magazine editors, conference planners, or > with any other angle are free to jump in and contribute. > > I further recommend that the moderators be free to focus on such > matters as real abuses of the list, such as spammers or people who are > truly offensive to the majority of readers with their postings, along > with a regular posting of a FAQ, perhaps, with such items as > requesting that folks put [AD] at the start of a subject line if they > are doing a blatant ad and are free to skip it if not. If someone > keeps forgetting this, they could be cyber-spanked (thanks for letting > us know you coined that one, Clif) off-list before getting to an > on-list notification. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last
REPOSTED FOR NON-MEMBER ADDRESS: "Support Mailbox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Bounce Notice: If you read this list through Indexfocus, Nabble, or any other replicator - and you would like to be able to participate - sign up directly with us. Here's all you need to know: To subscribe or resubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/. Clif, well said! As always you are able to illuminate a murky topic with the light of reason. Thanks! I appreciate the time and effort that the past and present list moderators have contributed to making the list such a valuable tool. BIG THANKS! As a consumer I find myself feeling offended by the [AD] [\AD] tagging stuff. It's as though I'm too stupid to recognize the nature of a post unless it's tagged for me. Should we also require posters to use tags to separate their opinions from proven fact - [OPINION] [\OPINION]. Or possibly [JOKE] [\JOKE] to alert readers to humor in posts? I think the list needs some clear rules -- for instance, "no porn" seems like a good one and easily to apply. Over and above a few clear rules, I say let the list members post what they want to! I know where the Delete key is. Jeff Fitzgerald Fitzgerald & Long, Inc. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last Week In Denver
Thanks for the history and mini-rant, Clif. While little differences of opinion like this recent one are common in e-mail communities, this type might be classified as the type found in communities that have more lock-down rules and are moderated in a way similar to ours. This might seem like a big leap, but I think my recommendation below is oddly related to the current chatter. Before stating this very risky recommendation (for me), I want to be clear and open on a few matters: 1) the following recommendation has a self-interest so that I can, once again, feel free to post to this list, one where I once enjoyed the interactions, but 2) this is not a recommendation that is exclusively out of self-interest. Even if I never post again, I think this will help u2-users be an even better community. As a past president and one of the founders of the U2UG, I would like to see a thriving, successful community of MV professionals here, with everyone who is interested feeling free to chat about relevant topics and even community-building topics that might be slightly to the side. 3) I will mention again that while I still have connections to U2 and am still a customer of the personal edition, I am focused on InterSystems Cache' right now, so like others on the list who might be working with OpenQM, jBASE, D3, Revelation, or other flavors of MultiValue as their primary toolset, my interests are not the same as someone with a U2 production printer problem, corrupt file, or looking for best practices for 24/7 with UniData, for example. I continue to do research on data models as one of my hobbies, however (exciting life I lead, eh?), in particular the relational model and Pick (aka the Nelson-Pick model, aka the MultiValue model) and have an interest in all aspects of MV and the MV community. Recommendation: I recommend that u2-community be closed down and that all with any interest in U2, whether as consultants, 3rd party vendors, VARs, end-customers, DBAs, systems analysts, network administrators, researchers, magazine editors, conference planners, or with any other angle are free to jump in and contribute. I further recommend that the moderators be free to focus on such matters as real abuses of the list, such as spammers or people who are truly offensive to the majority of readers with their postings, along with a regular posting of a FAQ, perhaps, with such items as requesting that folks put [AD] at the start of a subject line if they are doing a blatant ad and are free to skip it if not. If someone keeps forgetting this, they could be cyber-spanked (thanks for letting us know you coined that one, Clif) off-list before getting to an on-list notification. End of Recommendation Each time a moderator says something on the list, doing their jobs as they have been instructed, it reminds me how the community is one I once enjoyed, but where I hardly dare post anymore. I, too, have a knee-jerk reaction thinking that there are inconsistencies or that the list is run according to principles with which I disagree. I like Chuck and he was doing his job, but I didn't like Doug being told on the list to remember to put [AD] in the subject line. That could have been done offlist without disturbing the community. Additionally, you are already aware (but others might not be) that I think that in order to have a well-functioning community, you need to accept meta-discussions (discussions about the list or community). These have, in the past, been closed down by moving them to the u2-community list (typically a death-blow to the discussion). You also need meta-discussions about the technology employed, permitting discussions of theory as well as practice, in my opinion. Shutting any such discussions down makes for a community that feels more shut down than freed up. So, what do you think, can we permit this list to be a community, accepting threads on a full range of topics relevant to U2 users, recognizing that no one will be interested in everything, but that these days we have all learned how to filter mail, scan it quickly, or otherwise read what we want to read and dismiss the rest? OK, now THAT was far too long a question, but I'm not going to reword it. Spank me. smiles. --dawn On 9/6/07, Clifton Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Chuck, please forgive me if it looks like I'm jumping into a > Moderator issue; that is not my intent! As a private citizen and > consultant and ex-list-host, I'd like to address this current > discussion. > > I think that list members like Tony G and Susan J are being unfairly > castigated (no "R" in there, so chill) for their postings. > > First, a brief summary of history: I hosted the u2-users list for 9+ > years. It was a growing experience for all of us. We eventually hit > the point where the Geeks didn't want to have "their" list defiled > with anything non-technical. About the same time, the IBM > contributors were dropping out because of the noise-to-signal rati
Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last Week In Denver
Chuck, please forgive me if it looks like I'm jumping into a Moderator issue; that is not my intent! As a private citizen and consultant and ex-list-host, I'd like to address this current discussion. I think that list members like Tony G and Susan J are being unfairly castigated (no "R" in there, so chill) for their postings. First, a brief summary of history: I hosted the u2-users list for 9+ years. It was a growing experience for all of us. We eventually hit the point where the Geeks didn't want to have "their" list defiled with anything non-technical. About the same time, the IBM contributors were dropping out because of the noise-to-signal ratio. That's when we split the non-technical discussions off to a different list, u2-community--much to the verbal dismay of some people yet unto this day. At the same time, the [ad] tagging was introduced to allow the "purist" geeks to avoid anything smelling like Real World Marketing. The usage of the tags has changed slightly since I turned the reins over to U2UG, but the intent seems to be the same. Now for the Cyber-Spanking (yes; I'm the one who coined the term): Tagging is a voluntary thing. Some people will do it, some won't. Most will try, but forget, or be inconsistent. For heaven's sake, people are human. They forget. They don't think in terms of, "how can I write this in order to pussyfoot around the greatest number of underpaid geek's raw nerve endings?" Yes, I've noted that Tony and Susan and others mention their services and products in their postings. So what? If you don't like it, hit the delete key. Set up a spam filter to trash their postings. Ignore their suggestions that usually proceed mention of their products (thus willfully ignoring free advice in the process). If you hate their postings, filter them. If you don't know how to do that, you really, really shouldn't be allowed access to the Internet. Let me rain on your sanctimonious parade a little bit more: In the almost ten years I hosted the list, I was asked many times, "what do you get out of this?" I had calls from IBM wondering what financial or marketing advantage this gave me. The answer? NONE. To my colleagues on the list who run their own businesses--don't worry about it. In 9+ years of running the list, do you know how many sales/projects I got from the effort? ZERO! (It was a work of payback to the community.) My analysis was that 95% or more of the (mostly non-posting lurkers) of the list not only do not have the authority to sign a check, their opinions are not taken into account by management when purchasing decisions are made. So to the whiners about "sales pitches" on The List, want us to do a statistical analysis of your postings to see how much "content" or technical knowledge you contribute compared to what non-AD postings you receive? To the (very few) who do mention their services and products on the list, I ask a simple question: Are you getting enough (any) leads that make putting up with this abuse from the non-check-writing members worth your harassment? Just think about it. Are you more interested in free information exchange, or coercing people to post things YOUR way? -- Regards, Clif ~~~ W. Clifton Oliver, CCP CLIFTON OLIVER & ASSOCIATES Tel: +1 619 460 5678Web: www.oliver.com ~~~ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
