RE: [U2] Re: Why are there no MV books?
Dawn, On the http://www.tincat-group.com/mv/trilogy.html page, the SQL link: www-3.ibm.com/software/data/u2/mits doesn't work. Is there an update? Jef. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Re: Why are there no MV books?
Dawn, I'm surprised to see the comments below from someone who spends a good amount of her time in academia. Bookstores are filled with technical books which supplement vendor documentation, much of it coming from educators who know the material as well or better than the vendors' writers. There are hundreds of books which cover the same material in different ways. Just look at what's available for Java, VB.NET, PHP, XML, Linux, and a wealth of other topics. People buy books in part because they like _how_ authors explain topics, even though much of the material is repeated in most texts. I also choose some of my books by publisher because the bigger ones use standard templates, formulas which work well to allow readers to get through complex material comfortably. The MV DBMS is quite complex, composed of many subsystems. It's not just a data model, it's a database management system. There are a great many books on Oracle and SQL Server, and I'm sure there could be a number of books covering various nuances of Universe too - and Unidata, QM, jBase, D3, Reality, OpenInsight, Cachi... The notion that the Pick data model is too simple for a book is, uh, simplistic, and the fact that there are so many MV DBMS vendors in some ways only validates the idea that we just need more books. My best, Tony Can and usually does write a book on anything Gravagno Dawn wrote: I suspect that someone would write another one if there were a market for it, but the vendors all have documentation and the user exchanges, such as u2-users, help get folks the rest of the way. It is neither mainstream enough nor difficult enough to prompt someone to write a new book, I suspect. Additionally, the various Pick vendors have mostly gone their separate ways on client-server and there are many third-party products, so other than the basics of Data BASIC and the Pick data model, most of the information needed is vendor-specific at this point, I suspect. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Re: Why are there no MV books?
.. and just so you know, the first part of the Learner pack accompanying the Incubator is a short step-by-step guidebook on starting your first UniVerse application (with apologies to the UDT guys on the list - for practical reasons that will probably follow very soon after). For once it tries to take the radical approach of presenting this as a modern database and not spending half its pages delving into its 40 year past. Which has kept us all employed, but doesn't mean much to new developers who just want the latest and coolest stuff to play with. That's a perspective I really want to get throughout the learner pack. We have great functionality, and sometimes we just don't seem to be able to get our message across because of the way we present it. So let's show everyone how vibrant it can be! The Incubator is a really exciting project - it is a chance to bring together a lot of work that has been going on in the background with U2UG to sell the U2 message from within the group: the people who really matter. But we need your support! Tell us what you do, let us know about the technologies you are using, and how U2 helps your business. Whether you are using core facilities, or interfaces like XML, UO, java, talking to .NET or Tomcat .. we want to know: and we want the world to know what this technology can do. No-one else is going to do this for us. Brian Gabe asked why are there no MV books in bookstores in print? (Weird that I didn't get the original note - forum flaky???) This question is asked in many forums over time, so I decided to write a blog entry on it. Comments always welcome: removethisNebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2007/05/mvbooks1.html Tony TG@ yes,please.remove.this.anti.spam.textNebula-RnD.com --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Re: Why are there no MV books?
On 5/11/07, Tony Gravagno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dawn, I'm surprised to see the comments below from someone who spends a good amount of her time in academia. Bookstores are filled with technical books which supplement vendor documentation, much of it coming from educators who know the material as well or better than the vendors' writers. Of course you are correct, and I likely didn't state my point well. There must be a market to do such or someone willing to write without compensation. O'Reilly is likely not soliciting books on Pick as they are on Ruby, for example. Of course we can self-publish, as I sort-of did with the cards. You and I both have written blog entries, and that is also a contribution to writing, although I know mine do not have the same QA on them as if I were finalizing the pages of a book. These are appropriate ways to add content without as high a risk (or altruistic contribution) as writing a book. There is less likely to be an altruistic effort if the material is very vendor-specific and the vendor is not paying for the book to be written. I considered putting in a proposal for a MultiValue for Dummies book, for example, when I was thinking I would learn to write as a hobby, but opted for the blog instead because I could write whatever interested me without concern for market value, with the blog being lower risk (or at least I deemed it worth my time). There are hundreds of books which cover the same material in different ways. Just look at what's available for Java, VB.NET, PHP, XML, Linux, and a wealth of other topics. Of course, and Amazon and Barnes Noble have received my thanks for such efforts. People buy books in part because they like _how_ authors explain topics, even though much of the material is repeated in most texts. I also choose some of my books by publisher because the bigger ones use standard templates, formulas which work well to allow readers to get through complex material comfortably. The MV DBMS is quite complex, composed of many subsystems. It's not just a data model, it's a database management system. There are a great many books on Oracle and SQL Server, and I'm sure there could be a number of books covering various nuances of Universe too - and Unidata, QM, jBase, D3, Reality, OpenInsight, Cachi... The notion that the Pick data model is too simple for a book is, uh, simplistic, Obviously a book can be written about it, as many have (see the list at jes.com), but I don't know if there is a sufficient market for it today. I do think there are ways to angle it that might be marketable, such as showing one project start to finish (I'm planning to document the project I'm launching, for example, but don't know if that will be good book material until the resulting product is wildly successful). There might also be a market for a more general data model book that does not focus on the relational model, however, which is where I was putting my research and writing efforts in 2006. From that, I have a little market research of sorts. Perhaps you have different figures than I have, but within a year, my blog and Trilogy together had between 9,000 and 10,000 absolutely unique visitors according to Google Analytics. If as many as 10% of those folks bought a book (likely a high estimate), that would be only 1,000 copies sold. I was thinking of marketing to database professors as supplemental material if I ever pulled it into a book, and I think I could work at trying to make a market, but at this point I don't see the ROI (even if not speaking purely in dollar terms). Here is another way to think of simple as I intended it. If you were to hire a new employee who had to learn UniData, for example, would you feel you NEEDED a book from the bookstore for them to get started on the aspects of the project specific to MV, or would the combination of existing materials, including vendor manuals and in-house standards, be sufficient? and the fact that there are so many MV DBMS vendors in some ways only validates the idea that we just need more books. If you want a successful book in dollar terms, you might want to talk to Jon Sisk about the writing and publishing industry and get an idea of his estimates before you sink too many hours into writing. If you have other forms of compensatio in mind, there might be better ROI than if aiming for dollars. I have some more chapters in mine (blog entries), but the free thing only works when I get something I want for it. In my case, I have an interest in helping our industry get back to a data model that is not as constraining as that used by many/most shops. I'm not sure why I have such an interest, but it is my little area in the profession where I have tried to give back. I have worked on the side on my little project in that area for almost 5 years. At this point, to my delight, the industry is headed that way with or without me, so my writing might be completely unnecessary on that front, making
RE: [U2] Re: Why are there no MV books?
www.mits.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jef Lee Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 3:01 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] Re: Why are there no MV books? Dawn, On the http://www.tincat-group.com/mv/trilogy.html page, the SQL link: www-3.ibm.com/software/data/u2/mits doesn't work. Is there an update? Jef. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Re: Why are there no MV books?
Tony, Just read your blog. I can understand about the low number of copies of the books. There has been a trend of late for on demand printing that some of the publishers are doing. That way the have your book in electronic form and only print one copy as needed. I know that Xerox was working the Perseus Books Group doing that in Boulder. I am not sure what the current situation is as they closed the Westview office down and moved out of town from what I have been told. I suspect that there are other publishers doing the same thing. This would be a good solution. I have tried to buy copies of all the books over the years and you can count on me buying this one as well. If you do once on QM, I will buy that as well (hint). Eugene - Original Message - From: Tony Gravagno [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 5:48 PM Subject: RE: [U2] Re: Why are there no MV books? Gabe asked why are there no MV books in bookstores in print? (Weird that I didn't get the original note - forum flaky???) This question is asked in many forums over time, so I decided to write a blog entry on it. Comments always welcome: removethisNebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2007/05/mvbooks1.html Tony TG@ yes,please.remove.this.anti.spam.textNebula-RnD.com --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Re: Why are there no MV books?
Hi Eugene. I did a little googling and didn't read this, but it has Unidata in it, along with Ellery and the Economic Espionage Act, so I'm guessing at least some of the story is in here. https://www.cia.gov/csi/kent_csi/pdf/v44i3a08p.pdf Enjoy! --dawn On 5/11/07, Eugene Perry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dawn, I read your cards on your site. Very interesting. I would really like to read the story about the spys but the link no longer works. Any suggestions?! Eugene - Original Message - From: MAJ Programming [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:31 PM Subject: Re: [U2] Re: Why are there no MV books? I've never seen MV books in any bookstore. We've been a pretty well-kept secret. MV is hard to illustrate with words and/or drawings as itself is DOS-like and character based. Perhaps that's a stumbling block on create a book that's easy to read. Most books that I've come across are similar to the reference manuals with not a whole lot of this is better than that. It seems to present everything on a equal basis. My 1 cent. - Original Message - From: Thomas Derwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 3:00 PM Subject: [U2] Re: Why are there no MV books? Hi Gabe, Some quick thoughts: The Internet has dramatically reduced the need for printed materials, especially on fast-changing technical subjects. Even PC Magazine is a fraction of its former size. In the late '80s - early '90's (what I'd consider the heyday of Pick / MV so far), there were several books in print. Someone posted this link to Jonathan Sisk's Pick Publications Database not long ago: www.jes.com/picklist.html Many Pick / MV database installations are a behind the scenes part of software packages, so end-users might not feel the need for reference books. Hopefully others can comment on the state of the MV market. Regards, Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/10/07 11:30 AM Can I ask a silly question--why are there no MV books in bookstores in print? Anyone want to write one? ;-) Is the MV market expanding, shrinking, or staying stagnant? Does IBM plan to really start promoting U2 or is it just something they acquired to get a few large customers? Anybody? Gabe - This e-mail and any attachments may contain CONFIDENTIAL information, including PROTECTED HEALTH INFORMATION. If you are not the intended recipient, any use or disclosure of this information is STRICTLY PROHIBITED; you are requested to delete this e-mail and any attachments, notify the sender immediately, and notify the LabCorp Privacy Officer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or call (877) 23-HIPAA / (877) 234-4722. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Re: Why are there no MV books?
Gabe asked why are there no MV books in bookstores in print? (Weird that I didn't get the original note - forum flaky???) This question is asked in many forums over time, so I decided to write a blog entry on it. Comments always welcome: removethisNebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2007/05/mvbooks1.html Tony TG@ yes,please.remove.this.anti.spam.textNebula-RnD.com --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Re: Why are there no MV books?
I've never seen MV books in any bookstore. We've been a pretty well-kept secret. MV is hard to illustrate with words and/or drawings as itself is DOS-like and character based. Perhaps that's a stumbling block on create a book that's easy to read. Most books that I've come across are similar to the reference manuals with not a whole lot of this is better than that. It seems to present everything on a equal basis. My 1 cent. - Original Message - From: Thomas Derwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 3:00 PM Subject: [U2] Re: Why are there no MV books? Hi Gabe, Some quick thoughts: The Internet has dramatically reduced the need for printed materials, especially on fast-changing technical subjects. Even PC Magazine is a fraction of its former size. In the late '80s - early '90's (what I'd consider the heyday of Pick / MV so far), there were several books in print. Someone posted this link to Jonathan Sisk's Pick Publications Database not long ago: www.jes.com/picklist.html Many Pick / MV database installations are a behind the scenes part of software packages, so end-users might not feel the need for reference books. Hopefully others can comment on the state of the MV market. Regards, Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/10/07 11:30 AM Can I ask a silly question--why are there no MV books in bookstores in print? Anyone want to write one? ;-) Is the MV market expanding, shrinking, or staying stagnant? Does IBM plan to really start promoting U2 or is it just something they acquired to get a few large customers? Anybody? Gabe - This e-mail and any attachments may contain CONFIDENTIAL information, including PROTECTED HEALTH INFORMATION. If you are not the intended recipient, any use or disclosure of this information is STRICTLY PROHIBITED; you are requested to delete this e-mail and any attachments, notify the sender immediately, and notify the LabCorp Privacy Officer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or call (877) 23-HIPAA / (877) 234-4722. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Re: Why are there no MV books?
As some of you already know, if you have a new person either in management or development in a U2 (or other Pick) shop, you can have them read my little MultiValue Trilogy at http://www.tincat-group.com/mv/trilogy.html These are flash cards and they were written with readers to help with quality. My blog effort has also been a book-in-progress, of sorts, although I have set it aside for the time being to start a software project. It is a little dated and geared to D3, but Sisk's book on BASIC is also online at http://jes.com/pb/index.html I do have quite a few Pick books from days gone by on my shelf and after checking Jon's site, I see he has some for sale. I suspect that someone would write another one if there were a market for it, but the vendors all have documentation and the user exchanges, such as u2-users, help get folks the rest of the way. It is neither mainstream enough nor difficult enough to prompt someone to write a new book, I suspect. Additionally, the various Pick vendors have mostly gone their separate ways on client-server and there are many third-party products, so other than the basics of Data BASIC and the Pick data model, most of the information needed is vendor-specific at this point, I suspect. Cheers! --dawn On 5/10/07, MAJ Programming [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've never seen MV books in any bookstore. We've been a pretty well-kept secret. MV is hard to illustrate with words and/or drawings as itself is DOS-like and character based. Perhaps that's a stumbling block on create a book that's easy to read. Most books that I've come across are similar to the reference manuals with not a whole lot of this is better than that. It seems to present everything on a equal basis. My 1 cent. - Original Message - From: Thomas Derwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 3:00 PM Subject: [U2] Re: Why are there no MV books? Hi Gabe, Some quick thoughts: The Internet has dramatically reduced the need for printed materials, especially on fast-changing technical subjects. Even PC Magazine is a fraction of its former size. In the late '80s - early '90's (what I'd consider the heyday of Pick / MV so far), there were several books in print. Someone posted this link to Jonathan Sisk's Pick Publications Database not long ago: www.jes.com/picklist.html Many Pick / MV database installations are a behind the scenes part of software packages, so end-users might not feel the need for reference books. Hopefully others can comment on the state of the MV market. Regards, Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/10/07 11:30 AM Can I ask a silly question--why are there no MV books in bookstores in print? Anyone want to write one? ;-) Is the MV market expanding, shrinking, or staying stagnant? Does IBM plan to really start promoting U2 or is it just something they acquired to get a few large customers? Anybody? Gabe --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
