Re: Ubuntu phones and accessibility for the blind
I'd say it's not going to happen for you/get an android phone, or iphone if you must for now. Maybe the powers that be will care enough to invest paying Luke and perhaps someone to help him to get things working for us in a year or two, but I'm honestly not particularly optimistic. If they cared as much as I and many otrhers feel they should then accessibility would have been considered and developed from day one, and would be available in some rudamentary form now, something to keep die hard testers busy for the next months, maybe longer...smile -- B.H. Registerd Linux User 521886 Oliver Grawert wrote: Wed, Mar 02, 2016 at 11:17:09AM +0100 > hi, > Am Mittwoch, den 02.03.2016, 11:08 +1100 schrieb Luke Yelavich: > > > > Is Ubuntu phone already on Mir or it still uses ordinary X.org? I am > > > really impatient to try something (although don't have this phone > > > yet). I am ready to try getting this phone, but I need to be sure > > > that I will be able to have access to its internals. Otherwise, > > > apparently , I will be unable to do anything at all. > > > > As above, Mir is used on the phone now. > > Mir uses libinput, the same generic input layer that wayland uses. > i would expect that there will be something happening upstream at some > point to integrate at-spi with libinput (there is surely also work in > Mir and unity8 required, but the lower input layer should be covered by > upstream integration) > > ciao > oli > > > -- > Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list > Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Ubuntu phones and accessibility for the blind
hi, Am Mittwoch, den 02.03.2016, 11:08 +1100 schrieb Luke Yelavich: > > Is Ubuntu phone already on Mir or it still uses ordinary X.org? I am > > really impatient to try something (although don't have this phone > > yet). I am ready to try getting this phone, but I need to be sure > > that I will be able to have access to its internals. Otherwise, > > apparently , I will be unable to do anything at all. > > As above, Mir is used on the phone now. Mir uses libinput, the same generic input layer that wayland uses. i would expect that there will be something happening upstream at some point to integrate at-spi with libinput (there is surely also work in Mir and unity8 required, but the lower input layer should be covered by upstream integration) ciao oli -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Ubuntu phones and accessibility for the blind
Hi Luke, Thank you very much for the information you give! The only question I would like to ask is should we expect the team, which will be involved in fixing input events and general Mir support, working somewhere around Ubuntu or this team is just the same team who are now busy with AT-SPI development around Linux Foundation? Evidently, it's reasonable to expect that everything should happen in the main AT-SPI source code tree, but since we are talking about Mir and Ubuntu Touch, the work can go somewhere else. Luke Yelavich writes: > On Tue, Mar 01, 2016 at 06:20:18PM AEDT, Michael Pozhidaev wrote: >> Hi Luke, >> >> Luke Yelavich writes: >> >> > There is much to be done to get this off the ground. Given that >> > Canonical is writing its own display server Mir, the first requirement >> > is to properly tie in the accessibility infrastructure, mainly at-spi, >> > into working properly with Mir to intercept input events, and extend >> > at-spi itself to support touch. It would then be a matter of extending >> > Orca to work with touch, and not requiring Gtk support. In addition, >> > Qt's own linux accessibility support would likely need much work, >> > particularly the QML accessibility components. Ubuntu's QML based SDk >> > would also need much accessibility work. >> >> Yes, really a plenty of work to do. Could it be reasonable to try >> first getting some features for basic phone functions (just to have >> something for the beginning), and, after that try the work you have >> described? > > It is possible, but I am not sure how one would be able to find what they > need on screen without some way of the touch inputs being intercepted, > to make sure you don't activate something which you did not mean to > activate. Simple notifications like who is calling, incoming messages > could be done, but the problem as I see it, is then trying to get to the > appropriate app to re-read such data. > >> I know a bit about AT-SPI internals (Mike Gorse helped me a lot with >> that), and agree that this work is worthy enough to do, but will it let >> us get an accessible phone in observable future? > > That all depends on the number of developers who are involved to make this > happen. Extending at-spi to support touch events will likely need to be > done at some point for Wayland, so that could certainly be started now by > those of us who are keen to get it done. The real challenge is then tying > it in with the Mir display server that Canonical is using on the phone > already, which would likely require help from the Mir developers for best > results. They already have a high level understanding of what is needed, > but getting this working is not a priority for them right now. > > From what they told me, they would probably want Mir itself to assume > control for input interception, rather than at-spi itself, since they > don't want external processes to have access to any of Mir's input event > management data. > >> Is Ubuntu phone already on Mir or it still uses ordinary X.org? I am >> really impatient to try something (although don't have this phone >> yet). I am ready to try getting this phone, but I need to be sure >> that I will be able to have access to its internals. Otherwise, >> apparently , I will be unable to do anything at all. > > As above, Mir is used on the phone now. > >> I am planning to be in London from April 10th till 18th (and completely >> unaware when could get next chance to come to London). May I ask >> somebody to meet and let me know about this phone more please? If I get >> first understanding, I will purchase it for further experiments. I >> support everything what you have write and would be happy to participate >> in this development, but just want to have something to use as soon as >> possible. Just because I don't see nothing suitable arount instead. I >> don't trust Android, Tizen is completely unclear with its accessibility >> features, but Ubuntu phone is very inspirable also as a thing which I >> can improve myself. > > Sorry, I am not sure I am able to help here with advice as to who you could > contact in London to try and get more info/help with the Ubuntu phone > platform. > > Luke -- Michael Pozhidaev. Tomsk, Russia. Russian info page: http://www.marigostra.ru/ English info page: http://www.marigostra.com/ -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Ubuntu phones and accessibility for the blind
On Tue, Mar 01, 2016 at 06:20:18PM AEDT, Michael Pozhidaev wrote: > Hi Luke, > > Luke Yelavich writes: > > > There is much to be done to get this off the ground. Given that > > Canonical is writing its own display server Mir, the first requirement > > is to properly tie in the accessibility infrastructure, mainly at-spi, > > into working properly with Mir to intercept input events, and extend > > at-spi itself to support touch. It would then be a matter of extending > > Orca to work with touch, and not requiring Gtk support. In addition, > > Qt's own linux accessibility support would likely need much work, > > particularly the QML accessibility components. Ubuntu's QML based SDk > > would also need much accessibility work. > > Yes, really a plenty of work to do. Could it be reasonable to try > first getting some features for basic phone functions (just to have > something for the beginning), and, after that try the work you have > described? It is possible, but I am not sure how one would be able to find what they need on screen without some way of the touch inputs being intercepted, to make sure you don't activate something which you did not mean to activate. Simple notifications like who is calling, incoming messages could be done, but the problem as I see it, is then trying to get to the appropriate app to re-read such data. > I know a bit about AT-SPI internals (Mike Gorse helped me a lot with > that), and agree that this work is worthy enough to do, but will it let > us get an accessible phone in observable future? That all depends on the number of developers who are involved to make this happen. Extending at-spi to support touch events will likely need to be done at some point for Wayland, so that could certainly be started now by those of us who are keen to get it done. The real challenge is then tying it in with the Mir display server that Canonical is using on the phone already, which would likely require help from the Mir developers for best results. They already have a high level understanding of what is needed, but getting this working is not a priority for them right now. >From what they told me, they would probably want Mir itself to assume control for input interception, rather than at-spi itself, since they don't want external processes to have access to any of Mir's input event management data. > Is Ubuntu phone already on Mir or it still uses ordinary X.org? I am > really impatient to try something (although don't have this phone > yet). I am ready to try getting this phone, but I need to be sure > that I will be able to have access to its internals. Otherwise, > apparently , I will be unable to do anything at all. As above, Mir is used on the phone now. > I am planning to be in London from April 10th till 18th (and completely > unaware when could get next chance to come to London). May I ask > somebody to meet and let me know about this phone more please? If I get > first understanding, I will purchase it for further experiments. I > support everything what you have write and would be happy to participate > in this development, but just want to have something to use as soon as > possible. Just because I don't see nothing suitable arount instead. I > don't trust Android, Tizen is completely unclear with its accessibility > features, but Ubuntu phone is very inspirable also as a thing which I > can improve myself. Sorry, I am not sure I am able to help here with advice as to who you could contact in London to try and get more info/help with the Ubuntu phone platform. Luke -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Ubuntu phones and accessibility for the blind
Yes, I prefer an Ubuntu phone and convergence accessible with speech. Milton Op 01-03-16 om 05:12 schreef Michael Pozhidaev: Hi guys, A lot of rumors appears around the Ubuntu phone, what is very great news in itself. I'm just wondering is there any work to make this phone accessible for the blind? Or it is already suitable now? Anyway, what is its status regarding its accessibility for the blind? I'm a totally blind man. Due to very serious concerns on Android's security, I'd like to find something different. My question is mostly about basic phone functions, including making calls, maintaining contacts list and SMS reading, rather than general accessibility in applications. If there is nothing ready with that yet, I agree to participate in any work which potentially could result in necessary features for the blind. I'm a software engineer working on Linux for a long time, and I would be happy to be useful. But, of cource, if there are any ideas what to do. Thanks to everybody! :)) -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Ubuntu phones and accessibility for the blind
Hi Luke, Luke Yelavich writes: > There is much to be done to get this off the ground. Given that > Canonical is writing its own display server Mir, the first requirement > is to properly tie in the accessibility infrastructure, mainly at-spi, > into working properly with Mir to intercept input events, and extend > at-spi itself to support touch. It would then be a matter of extending > Orca to work with touch, and not requiring Gtk support. In addition, > Qt's own linux accessibility support would likely need much work, > particularly the QML accessibility components. Ubuntu's QML based SDk > would also need much accessibility work. Yes, really a plenty of work to do. Could it be reasonable to try first getting some features for basic phone functions (just to have something for the beginning), and, after that try the work you have described? I know a bit about AT-SPI internals (Mike Gorse helped me a lot with that), and agree that this work is worthy enough to do, but will it let us get an accessible phone in observable future? Is Ubuntu phone already on Mir or it still uses ordinary X.org? I am really impatient to try something (although don't have this phone yet). I am ready to try getting this phone, but I need to be sure that I will be able to have access to its internals. Otherwise, apparently , I will be unable to do anything at all. I am planning to be in London from April 10th till 18th (and completely unaware when could get next chance to come to London). May I ask somebody to meet and let me know about this phone more please? If I get first understanding, I will purchase it for further experiments. I support everything what you have write and would be happy to participate in this development, but just want to have something to use as soon as possible. Just because I don't see nothing suitable arount instead. I don't trust Android, Tizen is completely unclear with its accessibility features, but Ubuntu phone is very inspirable also as a thing which I can improve myself. Thank you very much! -- Michael Pozhidaev. Tomsk, Russia. Russian info page: http://www.marigostra.ru/ English info page: http://www.marigostra.com/ -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Ubuntu phones and accessibility for the blind
On Tue, Mar 01, 2016 at 03:12:58PM AEDT, Michael Pozhidaev wrote: > Hi guys, > > A lot of rumors appears around the Ubuntu phone, what is very great news > in itself. I'm just wondering is there any work to make this phone > accessible for the blind? Or it is already suitable now? Anyway, what is > its status regarding its accessibility for the blind? In short, non-existant at the moment. > I'm a totally blind man. Due to very serious concerns on Android's > security, I'd like to find something different. My question is mostly > about basic phone functions, including making calls, maintaining > contacts list and SMS reading, rather than general accessibility in > applications. > If there is nothing ready with that yet, I agree to participate in any > work which potentially could result in necessary features for the > blind. I'm a software engineer working on Linux for a long time, and I > would be happy to be useful. But, of cource, if there are any ideas what > to do. There is much to be done to get this off the ground. Given that Canonical is writing its own display server Mir, the first requirement is to properly tie in the accessibility infrastructure, mainly at-spi, into working properly with Mir to intercept input events, and extend at-spi itself to support touch. It would then be a matter of extending Orca to work with touch, and not requiring Gtk support. In addition, Qt's own linux accessibility support would likely need much work, particularly the QML accessibility components. Ubuntu's QML based SDk would also need much accessibility work. Thats a high level overview, but I hope it sheds some light on what needs doing. Oh... Yeah, Canonical decided to write its own wrapper around Chromium as well, so work is needed there too to add accessibility support, then add support for that to Orca. Luke -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Ubuntu phones and accessibility for the blind
Hi guys, A lot of rumors appears around the Ubuntu phone, what is very great news in itself. I'm just wondering is there any work to make this phone accessible for the blind? Or it is already suitable now? Anyway, what is its status regarding its accessibility for the blind? I'm a totally blind man. Due to very serious concerns on Android's security, I'd like to find something different. My question is mostly about basic phone functions, including making calls, maintaining contacts list and SMS reading, rather than general accessibility in applications. If there is nothing ready with that yet, I agree to participate in any work which potentially could result in necessary features for the blind. I'm a software engineer working on Linux for a long time, and I would be happy to be useful. But, of cource, if there are any ideas what to do. Thanks to everybody! :)) -- Michael Pozhidaev. Tomsk, Russia. Russian info page: http://www.marigostra.ru/ English info page: http://www.marigostra.com/ -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
