Re: [ubuntu-art] Intrepid Panels
On Apr 29, 2008, at 10:33 AM, Cory K. wrote: Julian Oliver wrote: 5% is way too much GPU or CPU consumption for a wallpaper IMO. It's actually *much* higher while its transitioning. On my dual-core setup Nautilus jumped up to like 60% usage using a 20second fade. Any lower then 15 didn't work. Maybe a longer fade/transition duration would lower the usage. But then, the effect appears jittery. Like a low frame-rate. -Cory \m/ -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art Anyone got any estimates on CPU/GPU usage if we finagled it through Compiz? I think that might be the only reasonable way to do this, and such a feature could likely well wait until compositing is more standardized across the Ubuntu desktop. Besides, aren't there more pressing visual niceties like that textured panel, nicer drop-shadows, etc? -Sumit -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Intrepid Ibex
Hold on here. I *really* think we're going about this the wrong way. I think we should have a moratorium on mock-ups that don't target specific design issues present in Hardy (these can be aesthetic or functional). Lets identify target goals and specific UI improvements, and then create mock-ups directed at that. -Sumit On Apr 28, 2008, at 12:47 AM, François Degrave wrote: Hi! It think this is a good idea to start with: Attached: 444K sized zip file with PNGs included. The visual style I have mentioned is called 'Elements' and it has 4 variations - Fire (the one you can see in the link), Water, Air and Earth. Fire - Orange, the default visual style Water - Blue Air - Grey Earth - Green We have Human Looks now. Imagine from Intrepid, we call our theme Human Elements. From the different themes I have seen based on Murrine and Clearlooks, this appears possible. Cheers, François Hi all ! While everybody is enjoying the new Hardy Heron, I'd like to remember the list what we set previously, the new theme for Intrepid Ibex. It's been two releases since we don't produce anything, lot of talk, no actions, and now it's time to realize something solid, consistent, to fit the hope of a beautiful new theme. Now where should we start ? For the moment, as the list hasn't been very active, there's nothing really defined, so what I suggest is a meeting very soon on IRC, to discuss about this hard task. Cheers, Steph. Elements.zip-- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Intrepid Ibex (Wallpaper Slideshow)
For this idea to work well it would need to utilize a compositing UI engine. Its probably best to just wait a bit until that end of things is more standardized. In this respect, OS's like Mac with its CoreImage/Quartz/etc have an advantage with a sort of enforced standardized way of doing such stuff. So basically, smoothly-transitioned slideshow backgrounds would need to be a Compiz plug-in. This doesn't seem too difficult, and compiz is now preinstalled in Ubuntu (am I correct?). -Sumit On Apr 28, 2008, at 9:14 AM, Cory K. wrote: Dana Goyette wrote: I've actually taken a look at that feature; after I first saw it in Fedora 8 and 9 (beta at the time), I've been 'dying' to see the same feature in Ubuntu. It turns out that the XML slideshow wallpaper feature from Fedora has been pushed upstream, so now it exists in Gnome 2.22, and thus Ubuntu (Hardy); there just isn't any artwork using it. However, this feature is static, in that it responds only to time changes, and not to season or weather changes. If you search for 'slideshow' on gnome-look, you get a few results: http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Tree+Slideshow+Wallpaper+for+Fedora?content=74639 http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/DebianBlue+(Animated+Slideshow)?content=75289 http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Debian-Bling+(Animated+Slideshow)?content=75293 -- note: this one is more of an example of what not to do! Some of the wallpapers from vladstudio.com also work decently well with these XML files. This feature can be very cool if done right, but it definitely needs good artwork to go with it. I've also taken the time to 'hack together' a theme using the iGoogle 'teahouse' theme's artwork; this at once shows how cool it can be, and shows how odd things can look when objects move around in the images. I've attached the theme here; the XML currently has hardcoded paths, and needs to be placed in /usr/share/backgrounds , so the XML file will be /usr/share/backgrounds/teahouse/teahouse.xml . ATM, this feature doesn't work well at all. It's totally CPU driven and on every box I've tried it on the transition is bad. Usually ticky. Like a *real* low frame-rate. Various resolutions, right up to a dual- core box. Also there's some issue where the fade or transition time can't be set below 15seconds or so. To be done by default I think the feature needs work. -Cory \m/ -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Intrepid Ibex (Wallpaper Slideshow)
To 'rephrase' and add some of my own thoughts: -ISSUE - theme not eye-pleasing enough -IDEA - create aeshetically-pleasing theme -CON - idea too vague -IDEA - large-area UI elements should be color-neutral. This would put greater visual importance and weight on application *content* rather than the application/desktop UI -ISSUE - UI controls such as scrollbars, max/min/close/etc can get visually 'lost' IDEA - keep main theme elements such as dialogue/application backgrounds, menubars, and possibly titlebars color-neutral, but give scrollbars and buttons strong colors (Ubuntu colors? Orange?) so that they visually stand-out. -IDEA - theme must clearly represent Ubuntu spirit -ISSUE - we need to better define 'Ubuntu spirit' visually. First, what does 'Ubuntu spirit' even mean? A sense of compassion? A sense of ease? What are generally-accepted techniques for visually representing these ideas? Does it mean warm colors? Does it mean a satin-look? Is anyone up for building up an Ubuntu-art wiki around this type of ISSUE/IDEA/PRO/CON organization? Should be easy to use in the existing wiki. -Sumit On Apr 28, 2008, at 10:34 AM, Anton Kerezov wrote: Hello everyone. Really nice work Dana. I think we are making progress now :) So let this be our FIRST GOAL: 1. We have to make an automatically changing desktop with natural elements in mind (I think that the first link mostly represents this idea). Propositions should be in .png file format and be available at the highest reasonable resolution. The author must keep a copy of his work in his computer. So that when requested for packaging it should be available. I need to know if all of you agree on this first goal because if there is one that don't we should discuss it again. I think we can integrate weather forecast and geo-location data usage as well (proposed by Dana). I wish I knew more about gnome-programming to do this myself :( After we create acceptable live background we should go and pursue our SECOND GOAL: 2. Create aesthetically pleasing and eye-easy theme that clearly represents the Ubuntu spirit. Not perfect example for 2: http://lassekongo83.deviantart.com/art/Orange-door-hinge-80402700 Any further discussions and and recommendations are always welcome :) Anton В 07:46 -0700 на 28.04.2008 (пн), Dana Goyette написа: Anton Kerezov wrote: Hi Seth I have put such a proposal on Ubuntu Brainstorm and had also proposed the idea of semi transparent background an year ago but there was little interest in it. I can work with you to make this happen and I'm sure it will be the best improvement we can make towards an interface that feel more human. So is there anyone else who would like to help? Excuse my English. Anton I've actually taken a look at that feature; after I first saw it in Fedora 8 and 9 (beta at the time), I've been 'dying' to see the same feature in Ubuntu. It turns out that the XML slideshow wallpaper feature from Fedora has been pushed upstream, so now it exists in Gnome 2.22, and thus Ubuntu (Hardy); there just isn't any artwork using it. However, this feature is static, in that it responds only to time changes, and not to season or weather changes. If you search for 'slideshow' on gnome-look, you get a few results: http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Tree+Slideshow+Wallpaper+for+Fedora?content=74639 http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/DebianBlue+(Animated+Slideshow)?content=75289 http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Debian-Bling+(Animated+Slideshow)?content=75293 -- note: this one is more of an example of what not to do! Some of the wallpapers from vladstudio.com also work decently well with these XML files. This feature can be very cool if done right, but it definitely needs good artwork to go with it. I've also taken the time to 'hack together' a theme using the iGoogle 'teahouse' theme's artwork; this at once shows how cool it can be, and shows how odd things can look when objects move around in the images. I've attached the theme here; the XML currently has hardcoded paths, and needs to be placed in /usr/share/backgrounds , so the XML file will be /usr/share/backgrounds/teahouse/teahouse.xml . -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Intrepid Ibex (Wallpaper Slideshow)
I strongly disagree. That is perfectly fine for the broader 'grown' Linux community, but Ubuntu seeks to set itself apart by presenting itself as a *planned* unified product for the non-enthusiast community. The Linux tradition of individual freedom and creativity is a great strength. But sometimes a project just calls out for more of a BSD- like structure. Ubuntu is such a project. Its not surprising that the open-source end-user applications to garner the greatest mainstream user-base, Firefox and OpenOffice, follow the same ethos. They identify issues, brainstorm solutions, and then pursue improvements in a highly-structured method. With Firefox 3 they did not simply decide to make it 'prettier'. They decided the browser must more-cleanly integrate into its host OS. They identified key solutions to this (skin the buttons to reflect the in-built browsers on Windows, Vista, and OS X, allow a 'unified' titlebar/application button area on OS X, etc), and then they went ahead and did it. There are innumerable Linux distributions that are essentially a collection of cool programs/hacks put together by a freeform community. And that's great! But if Ubuntu is just going to be another one of those, then there isn't a real *point* to Ubuntu. Ubuntu is meant for everyone. Such a lofty goal requires some serious planning. -Sumit On Apr 28, 2008, at 11:38 AM, Cory K. wrote: Sumit Agarwal wrote: To 'rephrase' and add some of my own thoughts: -ISSUE - theme not eye-pleasing enough -IDEA - create aeshetically-pleasing theme -CON - idea too vague -IDEA - large-area UI elements should be color-neutral. This would put greater visual importance and weight on application *content* rather than the application/desktop UI -ISSUE - UI controls such as scrollbars, max/min/close/etc can get visually 'lost' IDEA - keep main theme elements such as dialogue/application backgrounds, menubars, and possibly titlebars color-neutral, but give scrollbars and buttons strong colors (Ubuntu colors? Orange?) so that they visually stand-out. -IDEA - theme must clearly represent Ubuntu spirit -ISSUE - we need to better define 'Ubuntu spirit' visually. First, what does 'Ubuntu spirit' even mean? A sense of compassion? A sense of ease? What are generally-accepted techniques for visually representing these ideas? Does it mean warm colors? Does it mean a satin-look? Is anyone up for building up an Ubuntu-art wiki around this type of ISSUE/IDEA/PRO/CON organization? Should be easy to use in the existing wiki. -Sumit Honestly, best thing is to start the idea yourself and pull in like minded people once your idea is framed up. -Cory \m/ -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Intrepid Ibex (Wallpaper Slideshow)
Where raster content is desired (textures, etc), can bitmap data be embedded within an SVG? -Sumit On Apr 28, 2008, at 1:03 PM, Seth Woodworth wrote: Strike the png idea. Vectors are far superior. PNG is ridiculous, and lossy. I also feel that this could be implemented with relatively low overhead just be editing the xml of th SVG or changing backround every X seconds. But that would be a far less interesting implementation. On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Anton Kerezov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello everyone. Really nice work Dana. I think we are making progress now :) So let this be our FIRST GOAL: 1. We have to make an automatically changing desktop with natural elements in mind (I think that the first link mostly represents this idea). Propositions should be in .png file format and be available at the highest reasonable resolution. The author must keep a copy of his work in his computer. So that when requested for packaging it should be available. I need to know if all of you agree on this first goal because if there is one that don't we should discuss it again. I think we can integrate weather forecast and geo-location data usage as well (proposed by Dana). I wish I knew more about gnome-programming to do this myself :( After we create acceptable live background we should go and pursue our SECOND GOAL: 2. Create aesthetically pleasing and eye-easy theme that clearly represents the Ubuntu spirit. Not perfect example for 2: http://lassekongo83.deviantart.com/art/Orange-door-hinge-80402700 Any further discussions and and recommendations are always welcome :) Anton В 07:46 -0700 на 28.04.2008 (пн), Dana Goyette написа: Anton Kerezov wrote: Hi Seth I have put such a proposal on Ubuntu Brainstorm and had also proposed the idea of semi transparent background an year ago but there was little interest in it. I can work with you to make this happen and I'm sure it will be the best improvement we can make towards an interface that feel more human. So is there anyone else who would like to help? Excuse my English. Anton I've actually taken a look at that feature; after I first saw it in Fedora 8 and 9 (beta at the time), I've been 'dying' to see the same feature in Ubuntu. It turns out that the XML slideshow wallpaper feature from Fedora has been pushed upstream, so now it exists in Gnome 2.22, and thus Ubuntu (Hardy); there just isn't any artwork using it. However, this feature is static, in that it responds only to time changes, and not to season or weather changes. If you search for 'slideshow' on gnome-look, you get a few results: http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Tree+Slideshow+Wallpaper+for+Fedora?content=74639 http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/DebianBlue+(Animated+Slideshow)?content=75289 http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Debian-Bling+(Animated+Slideshow)?content=75293 -- note: this one is more of an example of what not to do! Some of the wallpapers from vladstudio.com also work decently well with these XML files. This feature can be very cool if done right, but it definitely needs good artwork to go with it. I've also taken the time to 'hack together' a theme using the iGoogle 'teahouse' theme's artwork; this at once shows how cool it can be, and shows how odd things can look when objects move around in the images. I've attached the theme here; the XML currently has hardcoded paths, and needs to be placed in /usr/share/backgrounds , so the XML file will be /usr/share/backgrounds/teahouse/teahouse.xml . -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Intrepid Ibex (Wallpaper Slideshow)
On Apr 28, 2008, at 1:33 PM, Cory K. wrote: shadowh511 wrote: but on low-power systems, SVG takes a long time to render We really need to move somewhat away from catering to the lowest common denominator. Let Xubuntu and or Fluxbuntu worry more about these things. Agreed! -Sumit -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] How the first theme is chosen for the user.
That sounds fun. But also maybe too fun? -Sumit On Apr 28, 2008, at 4:37 PM, shadowh511 wrote: On the first login, you will be greeted with a Welcome to Ubuntu dialog that presents two options: Use default theme and Take the quiz to choose your theme in the second, it will ask you a series of questions with answers and chooses the theme from there. -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] How the first theme is chosen for the user.
Hahahha... Actually, you make a very good point. Ubuntu should get in the habit of innovating UI that MS/Apple are compelled to copy. Mac's Dashboard and later Vista's Sideshow are essentially stolen ideas from the GNOME/ KDE communities. Firefox 3 has recently introduced a feature that I'm certain will be copied by Safari and IE in the near future: the 'find as you type' history search integrated into the URL bar. -Sumit On Apr 28, 2008, at 4:46 PM, shadowh511 wrote: it would set us apart, and we would get the added benefit of watching Microsoft copying us! On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Sumit Agarwal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That sounds fun. But also maybe too fun? -Sumit On Apr 28, 2008, at 4:37 PM, shadowh511 wrote: On the first login, you will be greeted with a Welcome to Ubuntu dialog that presents two options: Use default theme and Take the quiz to choose your theme in the second, it will ask you a series of questions with answers and chooses the theme from there. -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- Ubuntu FTW! -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] How the first theme is chosen for the user.
Ah, that's right. Stupid confusing features names for stupid confusing useless features... -Sumit On Apr 28, 2008, at 5:08 PM, shadowh511 wrote: for vista, you mean sidebar, right? sideshow is an embedded display on the computing device. On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Sumit Agarwal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hahahha... Actually, you make a very good point. Ubuntu should get in the habit of innovating UI that MS/Apple are compelled to copy. Mac's Dashboard and later Vista's Sideshow are essentially stolen ideas from the GNOME/KDE communities. Firefox 3 has recently introduced a feature that I'm certain will be copied by Safari and IE in the near future: the 'find as you type' history search integrated into the URL bar. -Sumit On Apr 28, 2008, at 4:46 PM, shadowh511 wrote: it would set us apart, and we would get the added benefit of watching Microsoft copying us! On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Sumit Agarwal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That sounds fun. But also maybe too fun? -Sumit On Apr 28, 2008, at 4:37 PM, shadowh511 wrote: On the first login, you will be greeted with a Welcome to Ubuntu dialog that presents two options: Use default theme and Take the quiz to choose your theme in the second, it will ask you a series of questions with answers and chooses the theme from there. -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- Ubuntu FTW! -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- Ubuntu FTW! -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] How the first theme is chosen for the user.
All such preferences should be user/account-based, not installation- based. -Sumit On Apr 28, 2008, at 5:51 PM, shadowh511 wrote: Yes, Yes, and YES. but if two users had disagreeing themes, what would happen then? On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 5:34 PM, Arjuna Navaratna [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just wanted to make a suggestion... I like the idea of letting the user determine which of the 'human element' theme variations is used. But instead of asking the user when they first login, what if the option is available after installation. That way the login screen itself could be different based on the theme choice... fire, water etc. style gdm themes? Personally, I'm loving the element idea as soon as I read it. It would really set ubuntu apart in terms of looks with pretty much every other OS out there. -Arjuna On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 8:08 PM, shadowh511 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: for vista, you mean sidebar, right? sideshow is an embedded display on the computing device. On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Sumit Agarwal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hahahha... Actually, you make a very good point. Ubuntu should get in the habit of innovating UI that MS/Apple are compelled to copy. Mac's Dashboard and later Vista's Sideshow are essentially stolen ideas from the GNOME/KDE communities. Firefox 3 has recently introduced a feature that I'm certain will be copied by Safari and IE in the near future: the 'find as you type' history search integrated into the URL bar. -Sumit On Apr 28, 2008, at 4:46 PM, shadowh511 wrote: it would set us apart, and we would get the added benefit of watching Microsoft copying us! On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Sumit Agarwal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That sounds fun. But also maybe too fun? -Sumit On Apr 28, 2008, at 4:37 PM, shadowh511 wrote: On the first login, you will be greeted with a Welcome to Ubuntu dialog that presents two options: Use default theme and Take the quiz to choose your theme in the second, it will ask you a series of questions with answers and chooses the theme from there. -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- Ubuntu FTW! -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- Ubuntu FTW! -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art Cory, its for the first login -- Ubuntu FTW! -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] How the first theme is chosen for the user.
Incorrect. Not many. MOST! Most. people. do. not. customize. their. desktop. At. all. Which is just another way of saying: lets get things right the first time. Lets put all our efforts into a tasteful default desktop. First order of business (in my opinion, and in the opinion of other non-enthusiasts I've spoken with) is color. While the orange/brown does effectively distinguish Ubuntu from other OS's, it is dramatically overused. Most people find it ugly. I don't think we should move away from those colors. I think we should simply limit what interface elements we actually apply them to. This is an actual item/issue we can discuss. I'm inviting targeted dialogue around this. PLEASE converse around issues like this instead of creating mockups that aren't targeted at any specific issues!!! Once we've identified issues we can make mockups that address them! -Sumit On Apr 28, 2008, at 6:44 PM, Dylan McCall wrote: many people do not care, just so long as it is tasteful. -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Itrepid theme inspiration ?
Now that I think about it, you are very right that there is a troubling (yes, not just curious, but troubling) conservatism to Ubuntu art. The attitude with Ubuntu/GNOME seems to be: if we change it more than a little bit, certain segments of both new and long-time users will leave Ubuntu in droves. This is nonsense. Windows XP (Luna style was shocking for its time! And it is still garishly blue!), Windows Vista, Mac OS 10, and Mac Leopard all made very dramatic visual departures from their predecessors. Far more dramatic than Human, even. These did not result in a downturn in user base, with the possible exception of Vista (and we all know that in Vista's case it wasn't because of the look!). Lets be bold. Lets be visionary. And in the process, lets build Ubuntu's halo. It really is one of the most effective ways to build attention, and thus users. -Sumit Julian Oliver wrote: ..on or around Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 05:14:22PM +0100, Sumit Agarwal said: I think both mock-up links presented (the Windows one and the Ubuntu one) are really great examples, though they may be a touch too dark for mainstream tastes (maybe I'm wrong. Human is already too /caramel/ for many tastes.. there is a curious conservatism at work i think here in Ubuntu Art. Human was a risky design idea, that half-worked. the relative success of this theme leaves Ubuntu Art leaders afraid of taking further design risks. as a result, the graphical presentation of Ubuntu is stagnating in its own prior bravery. for the next release i think we'd all be wise to not cower away from the possibility of widespread disappointment at shipping a radically new theme - just as Human was when it was introduced. surely it cannot be worse than promising great changes, as we all did, only to default back to the known (for an LTS release). moreso, i think it's safe to generalise that people appreciate attempts at improvement, being often far more generous in this respect than fear would advise. oh, i like both mockups. cheers, -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
[ubuntu-art] Wiki - argument mapping
Just saw this MIT Center for Collective Intelligence tutorial on 'argument mapping'. Could be *very* helpful in the Ubuntu wiki for moving ahead on new designs, issues, and solutions. This certainly isn't just applicable for the art team, but we could test the technique and hopefully prove it for use in a larger context. Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2w2WBCn7ug The concept is fairly simple and common-sense, but good. The basic idea is that discussion should be structured according to *type* and *content* of post, rather than by time. Post type: -Issue -Idea (a way to resolve an issue) -Pro (advantage of an idea) -Con (disadvantage of an idea) Each issue may have multiple ideas. Each idea may have its own issues. Ideas may have pro's and con's, but issues may not. -Sumit P.S. I think this might help us focus on solving *issues* rather than generating a list of different ideas that we think are cool but aren't necessarily addressing any problems with Ubuntu. We can still have all those same ideas, but now at least we'll be able to place them alongside like ideas that are directed at the same issue (and maybe we'll realize that these ideas address issues we didn't even think of!) -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] (RED)
Philosophically it certainly makes sense. More difficult is the question of how exactly it would work. (RED) works by allocating a portion of sales revenue to the charity. With Ubuntu being free, does that mean Canonical would need to donate a percentage of their services revenue? Would Canonical agree to such a thing? -Sumit Brian wrote: Okay, so I don't know if anyone checks the brainstorm here, but I posted one (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/6200/) about getting Ubuntu involved with (RED). Since it seems there's a fair amount of interest, I figured I'd go ahead and see if I could get some people involved. =] I would really love to make this happen, and I don't really know who to talk to and ask about this, so I figured I'd stop by here first and see if anyone wanted to help (RED)-ify Ubuntu. xD I made kind of a logo, if anyone wants it. :] http://i28.tinypic.com/fpbhg3.png You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=47523/*http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com, No Cost. -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] creamlooks-gtk
I fully agree. I like the OS X border-less style, but of course that necessitates a compositing engine + drop shadows. I think a very minimal window border would go a long way to professionalizing and de-cartooning the GNOME desktop. As I see it right now, the wide borders reflect the very annoying hard-outlined GNOME style icons. This is a trend that seems to be self-perpetuating for no good reason (look at the icon sheets for Firefox 3. See the Linux set? Why are we making new icons that look like they're stuck in 1998?). -Sumit Julian Oliver wrote: i don't understand why there is this pixel-eating, thick translucent border around the windows. on laptops (which increasingly average at 1024x768 pixels) this would be especially impractical. why not just do away with the strange exaggerated border? it's like the theme attempts minimalism but gets self-conscious about it along the way. my 2 bytes. -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] creamlooks-gtk
Yes, this is somewhat true, but wouldn't at least the titlebar edges remain grab-able? It also begs a question I personally have been wondering for some time: is it possible to force GNOME to draw a resizer in the corner on all windows, including those lacking a status- bar? -Sumit On Mar 21, 2008, at 9:46 AM, Cory K. wrote: Sumit Agarwal wrote: I fully agree. I like the OS X border-less style, but of course that necessitates a compositing engine + drop shadows. I think a very minimal window border would go a long way to professionalizing and de-cartooning the GNOME desktop. As I see it right now, the wide borders reflect the very annoying hard-outlined GNOME style icons. This is a trend that seems to be self-perpetuating for no good reason (look at the icon sheets for Firefox 3. See the Linux set? Why are we making new icons that look like they're stuck in 1998?). -Sumit Issue with this is you lose the ability to resize the windows properly. A less than 3px border is very hard to grab and 0px means only being able to grab the corners. -Cory K. -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] creamlooks-gtk
For basic interface issues I strongly believe we should not rely on graphic/processing-intense features (which is part of why I think the drop shadows should also not be relied upon). Ubuntu needs to maintain identical usability on powerful or legacy systems, with the addition that on a powerful system there is essentially a 'make pretty' button (which there is!). That said, I find myself stunned by how responsive Mac OS 10.4 is on a Pentium M 1.4Ghz machine with absolutely no graphic acceleration (just make sure v-sync is disabled!). To summarize: the borders need to be sufficient to distinguish one window from another (otherwise the white space of one document may bleed into an underlying white window), but preferably the borders should not be any larger than required for this (again, drop shadows essentially negate this need, or replace this need). If it were my call, I'd ask for 1-pixel borders and a forced resize grip in the bottom-right corner of every window. This, along with gripable title- bars, I think would be a good solution, but every taste differs and it should be noted that the Vista team, with its broad mainstream target, seemed to think huge bloated borders were best. I think Vista's large borders were just included to show off Aeroglass, not for functionality or usability. However, they keep those huge ugly borders even when Aero is switched off or unavailable. -Sumit On Mar 21, 2008, at 11:00 AM, xl cheese wrote: There was a bug opened a while back about it being hard to resize the window as it currently is design. There was a suggestion to make a transparent border that was thicker so it would be easier. I think that bug was closed and labeled not a bug. With the new metacity supporting transparancy I wonder it it would be possible to create a metacity with a thicker edge that was fully transparent? Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 12:46:03 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: [ubuntu-art] creamlooks-gtk Sumit Agarwal wrote: I fully agree. I like the OS X border-less style, but of course that necessitates a compositing engine + drop shadows. I think a very minimal window border would go a long way to professionalizing and de-cartooning the GNOME desktop. As I see it right now, the wide borders reflect the very annoying hard-outlined GNOME style icons. This is a trend that seems to be self-perpetuating for no good reason (look at the icon sheets for Firefox 3. See the Linux set? Why are we making new icons that look like they're stuck in 1998?). -Sumit Issue with this is you lose the ability to resize the windows properly. A less than 3px border is very hard to grab and 0px means only being able to grab the corners. -Cory K. -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art Windows Live Hotmail is giving away Zunes. Enter for your chance to win. -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] creamlooks-gtk
I think that John Hicks' design is a perfect target goal for Ubuntu art. One of the strongest strengths of his design is that it does not attempt to be 'Windowsish', 'Macish', or 'Vistaish'. Its an independent highly-effective attractive and usable style. One of the main goals in Firefox 3 is to better visually integrate the application into its host OS's. Some have complained that this is resulting in a dilution in the Mozilla 'brand'. Overall I agree with this goal because most users spend the majority of their day inside their web browser. However, it poses a specific problem with the Linux version because, obviously, there is no standard Linux look. So the Firefox team seems to have settled on a Tango/GTK look. I think this is a huge mistake. Firstly, it ignores KDE users (who should switch from Konqueror to Firefox!) and anyone with even a vague sense of style who is likely to have already changed from the default GTK theme. So, I really think the Firefox team should take advantage of Firefox 3 on Linux as an opportunity to 'define the Firefox brand'. Away from the preset styles of Windows and Mac, Linux is a chance to build a whole identity for Mozilla around the base concepts introduced by John Hicks' work. And being that even within Linux most users spend so much of their time within Firefox and Thunderbird, maybe we could have a faint glimmer of hope that stylistic changes in Firefox/Thunderbird will cascade through the rest of the open-source community. It seems to me that the GNOME/GTK attitude to updating the visual style really comes down to 1) it works 2) the million+ of us can't agree on a new look and 3) who are YOU to decide what MY desktop looks like?! This is stupid. As it stands, despite the 'open' nature of GNOME/GTK, the power to decide what it looks like is in the hands of a few people. The people who created the original style a decade ago. These same people in all likelihood have moved on to favoring more modern looks, but even they can't decide what mine and your desktops look like, although they did exactly that at one point. Maybe GNOME/GTK needs a Linus Torvalds or Steve Jobs? Somebody who ultimately approves what gets added and what gets changed, and, more importantly, sets the vision for the future? The problem with this idea of course is 1) who picks this person? 2) HOW do those people pick this person and 3) even if we had a leader like that, there are few leaders in the world with the skills and intuition of Linus Torvalds or Steve Jobs. I'm not sure what your point is about Western art ;) afterall, Asian sumi-e painting is particularly effective at using rich textures without gaudy colors or unnecessary outlines. -Sumit On Mar 21, 2008, at 1:23 PM, Troy James Sobotka wrote: Sumit Agarwal wrote: As I see it right now, the wide borders reflect the very annoying hard-outlined GNOME style icons. This is a trend that seems to be self-perpetuating for no good reason (look at the icon sheets for Firefox 3. See the Linux set? Why are we making new icons that look like they're stuck in 1998?). Julian Oliver wrote: i don't understand why there is this pixel-eating, thick translucent border around the windows. Agree 100% with these two comments. The main issue here is that both Tango and the resultant 'style' is an extremely far cry from communicating anything close to ideas such as elegant or graceful. The resultant look, with its reliance on heavy, thick, rounded border lines -- including the insistence on GTK control border lines -- would probably have descriptive words such as bulbous and clunky chosen when offered up on a multiple choice poll. I have long been extremely vocal about this facet of Ubuntu, but alas, the inevitable fallacy of the usability factor is brought up, and the status quo keeps marching along - as opposed to actually examining the issue at hand. To compare, have a peek at the beautiful John Hicks work for the Thunderbird and Firefox icons ( http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/work/mozilla-logos ) against just about any of the Crayola inspired elements Gnome has. Again, this is about associations, and thick outlines / borders / control lines have no place if one is trying to communicate an element of grace or elegance in westernized art. What are we saying to our audience? Sincerely, TJS -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] creamlooks-gtk
It doesn't fall under K.I.S.S. because 90+% of users would never dream that a keyboard button would function as a toggle upon the cursor. If you can't get around just fine without a keyboard plugged in, you haven't succeeded in your interface design. You wouldn't believe how many Windows users are stunned when I use CTRL+C, CTRL+V, ALT+ESC, and ALT+TAB. Despite these functions being present since time immemorial, most people are still completely unaware of it. Oh, and I have a TabletPC, so while I like keyboard shortcuts, I don't like to be forced to use them ;) -Sumit On Mar 21, 2008, at 3:45 PM, Julian Oliver wrote: ..on or around Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 01:00:22PM -0500, xl cheese said: There was a bug opened a while back about it being hard to resize the window as it currently is design. There was a suggestion to make a transparent border that was thicker so it would be easier. I think that bug was closed and labeled not a bug. With the new metacity supporting transparancy I wonder it it would be possible to create a metacity with a thicker edge that was fully transparent? it seems strange to me that the borders of windows would be made thicker /all the time/ just so they could make better click targets when someone needs to resize. why not just use a keyboard bind? hold down ALT when near an edge or corner to resize. if within range (4 pixels) the cursor changes to a resize cursor. it works with my current window manager just fine. GNOME should do it too and free up those precious pixels - a lesson in K.I.S.S. cheers, -- julian oliver http://julianoliver.com http://selectparks.net messages containing HTML will not be read. -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] creamlooks-gtk
Hrm, I'm not sure I'm following your first point. Precisely what I was arguing was that most users are *not* aware that ALT-TAB cycles through windows, and that such behavior is not intuitive (though useful). ALT-LMB grabbing a window is news even to me ;) But your TabletPC suggestion is interesting, possibly even for other input devices as well. What it amounts to is a sort of 'invisible' multi-pixel window border. The best of both worlds? Maybe. I worry about a situation in which a user needs to manipulate pixels at the edge of a window, but the solution is simply to have it only switch to resize behavior *outside* of the application window, exactly like a window border. This might be perceived as interfering with underlying windows, but how many people select an underlying window by clicking it within 3 pixels of an overlaying window? This solution would also eliminate the need for a corner resize grip. Overall, I think it would be an exceptionally intuitive, naturalistic, and space-efficient solution. We still need single-pixel borders for non-compositing window managers, but with compositing window managers that border can be eliminated entirely in favor of a drop shadow. -Sumit On Mar 21, 2008, at 4:50 PM, Julian Oliver wrote: ..on or around Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 04:35:34PM -0700, Sumit Agarwal said: It doesn't fall under K.I.S.S. because 90+% of users would never dream that a keyboard button would function as a toggle upon the cursor. then how does it somehow occur to them that ALT-LMB will grab a window? that ALT-TAB cycles though windows? If you can't get around just fine without a keyboard plugged in, you haven't succeeded in your interface design. You wouldn't believe how many Windows users are stunned when I use CTRL+C, CTRL+V, ALT+ESC, and ALT+TAB. Despite these functions being present since time immemorial, most people are still completely unaware of it. Oh, and I have a TabletPC, so while I like keyboard shortcuts, I don't like to be forced to use them ;) the TabletPC is a case i hadn't considered. a solution may be to have the cursor change to a resize graphic when the pointer is within 3 pixels of the window edge. this would also make it more apparent for those transitioning from other windowing environments. cheers, -- julian oliver http://julianoliver.com http://selectparks.net messages containing HTML will not be read. On Mar 21, 2008, at 3:45 PM, Julian Oliver wrote: ..on or around Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 01:00:22PM -0500, xl cheese said: There was a bug opened a while back about it being hard to resize the window as it currently is design. There was a suggestion to make a transparent border that was thicker so it would be easier. I think that bug was closed and labeled not a bug. With the new metacity supporting transparancy I wonder it it would be possible to create a metacity with a thicker edge that was fully transparent? it seems strange to me that the borders of windows would be made thicker /all the time/ just so they could make better click targets when someone needs to resize. why not just use a keyboard bind? hold down ALT when near an edge or corner to resize. if within range (4 pixels) the cursor changes to a resize cursor. it works with my current window manager just fine. GNOME should do it too and free up those precious pixels - a lesson in K.I.S.S. cheers, -- julian oliver http://julianoliver.com http://selectparks.net messages containing HTML will not be read. -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] Linework (WAS creamlooks-gtk)
While they're at it, we could use some other hacks too that are in a somewhat similar vein. Most of all the hack I would love (and think is fairly crucial) is the ability to specify different scrollbars/titlebar widgets with active and inactive windows. How many times have you tried to scroll a window but accidentally scrolled an underlying window instead? Even worse, how many times have you tried to close an active window and accidentally closed and underlying window instead? Thanks for changing the subject heading! -Sumit On Mar 21, 2008, at 6:12 PM, Troy James Sobotka wrote: George Brooke wrote: Is is not possible to have a wider window border appear when your mouse hovers near the edge of the window or would this not be possible with current GTK/Meatacity themes? Not possible. The ubuntu-art crowd has grown to include a few coders however. Perhaps one of them might be able to kludge a hack together as a proof of principle. Sincerely, TJS -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] 2D updates
Looking good. A bit aliased, but otherwise good. What is that upper right-hand icon for? Logout? -Sumit On Feb 4, 2008 2:57 PM, Kenneth Wimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For those who didn't notice it, I've updated the 2D icons in launchpad a bit. Attached is a small png file which shows the current stage. -- Ken -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
