Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu-Title font

[shadowh511]

That is a SWEET bug. Where to file is my question

Sent from my iPod

On Jul 17, 2008, at 9:38 PM, "Justin Dugger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Jan Claeys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Op woensdag 16-07-2008 om 22:37 uur [tijdzone -0500], schreef Justin
>> Dugger:
>>> I'm not saying that we should necessarily override these, but we
>>> should at least understand them, accept that which is good and  
>>> improve
>>> that which can be improved.
>>
>> Some of your remarks might be caused by rendering issues, some  
>> might be
>> because he thinks they make the font better.  I guess only he can  
>> answer
>> that though...  :)
>>
>> (He's a professional typeface designer, so his reasons for these  
>> changes
>> might be sound--except for 0 & O looking the same maybe).
>
> Here's the thing -- we don't have to worry about stepping on artist's
> toes or hurting feelings.  I'm sure the narrowing strokes and others
> are intentional. But are they better?
>
> But as things stand, he has his font and Ubuntu ships something else.
> The license should mean anyone who disagrees is free to walk away, and
> anyone who likes it is free to borrow some or all of it.  (I should
> mention the ambiguous nature of font design rights, but I'm hardly an
> IP lawyer).  I'm honored that a professional took the time to
> demonstrate his talents with this font; the mark of a professional in
> any field is being open to review.
>
> More productively, does anyone else get blanks when loading the
> current font into FontForge?
>
> Steps I take to reproduce:
>
> 1. Install FontForge from universe:
>  "sudo apt-get install fontforge"
>
> 2. Download the source package to ttf-ubuntu-title
> "apt-get source ttf-ubuntu-title"
>
> 3. Open the FontForge .sfd:
> "fontforge ttf-ubuntu-title-0.3/Ubuntu-Title.sfd"
>
> 4. Note the lack of glyphs.
>
> 5. Open the .ttf instead and see wonderous glyphs ready for editing.
>
> Justin Dugger
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu-Title font

[t_w_]

Ashton wrote:

>> * Ubuntu Brainstorm logo

> I'd argue that all these other uses, aside from the
obvious "kubuntu",
"edubuntu",
> etc, dilute the brand significance, and are a mis-use of
what should
be thought of
> as part of the circle of friends logo. Not something
meant to
ubuntu-i-fize other
> ordinary text. Even the tag line. Obviously, what is done
is done, and
it is too late now.

"ubuntu" in a different font didn't look right to us,
especially not
right next to the logo
referencing the circle of friends. "brainstorm" is part
of the name, not
a tag line, so it 
had to be in the same font for things to not fall apart.

I found it to be very hard to use any other font right next
to the
ubuntu title.

I don't see how it would "dilute" the brand to use given
characteristics
of the brand for 
association.


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu-Title font

[Ashton]

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 11:49 PM, Ashton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> A site using the same fonts for both elements:
>
> http://maddox.xmission.com/
>

Alright, so it isn't using the same font. Bad example.

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu-Title font

[Ashton]

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 10:11 PM, Justin Dugger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Well, this is more Advertising discussion, but while it might dilute
> the significance, it also broadens it's meaning.  You can't have the
> tag line be a different font, that's ugly and stupid.


It's the rule eh?
More often than not, tag lines are separated out from the logo/title...using
fonts.

http://consumerist.com/
http://www.dooce.com/
http://www.amplesanity.com/
http://waiterrant.net/
http://gofugyourself.celebuzz.com/
http://www.boingboing.net/
http://lifehacker.com/

A site using the same fonts for both elements:

http://maddox.xmission.com/

Also, it can't dilute /while/ broadening right? It would have to be one or
the other.


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu-Title font

[Justin Dugger]

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Jan Claeys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Op woensdag 16-07-2008 om 22:37 uur [tijdzone -0500], schreef Justin
> Dugger:
>> I'm not saying that we should necessarily override these, but we
>> should at least understand them, accept that which is good and improve
>> that which can be improved.
>
> Some of your remarks might be caused by rendering issues, some might be
> because he thinks they make the font better.  I guess only he can answer
> that though...  :)
>
> (He's a professional typeface designer, so his reasons for these changes
> might be sound--except for 0 & O looking the same maybe).

Here's the thing -- we don't have to worry about stepping on artist's
toes or hurting feelings.  I'm sure the narrowing strokes and others
are intentional. But are they better?

But as things stand, he has his font and Ubuntu ships something else.
The license should mean anyone who disagrees is free to walk away, and
anyone who likes it is free to borrow some or all of it.  (I should
mention the ambiguous nature of font design rights, but I'm hardly an
IP lawyer).  I'm honored that a professional took the time to
demonstrate his talents with this font; the mark of a professional in
any field is being open to review.

More productively, does anyone else get blanks when loading the
current font into FontForge?

Steps I take to reproduce:

1. Install FontForge from universe:
  "sudo apt-get install fontforge"

2. Download the source package to ttf-ubuntu-title
"apt-get source ttf-ubuntu-title"

3. Open the FontForge .sfd:
 "fontforge ttf-ubuntu-title-0.3/Ubuntu-Title.sfd"

4. Note the lack of glyphs.

5. Open the .ttf instead and see wonderous glyphs ready for editing.

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu-Title font

[Justin Dugger]

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 10:29 PM, Ashton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 1:59 AM, Justin Dugger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> The font is used in other promotional materials and lettering.  Just a
>> quick listing off the top of my head:
>> * the tag line "Linux for human beings"
>> * The Full Circle Magazine
>> * Ubuntu Brainstorm logo
>> * Anywhere you'd like to convey an association with Ubuntu
>> * Tons of other promotional materials
>
> I'd argue that all these other uses, aside from the obvious "kubuntu",
> "edubuntu", etc, dilute the brand significance, and are a mis-use of what
> should be thought of as part of the circle of friends logo. Not something
> meant to ubuntu-i-fize other ordinary text. Even the tag line. Obviously,
> what is done is done, and it is too late now.
>

Well, this is more Advertising discussion, but while it might dilute
the significance, it also broadens it's meaning.  You can't have the
tag line be a different font, that's ugly and stupid.  You could do
without the tag line, but then you're not really saying anything at
all, which might be fine for a boot screen, but for anything more you
probably want to avoid mixing fonts if the logo is central to the
work.

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu-Title font

[Ashton]

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 1:59 AM, Justin Dugger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> The font is used in other promotional materials and lettering.  Just a
> quick listing off the top of my head:
> * the tag line "Linux for human beings"
> * The Full Circle Magazine
> * Ubuntu Brainstorm logo
> * Anywhere you'd like to convey an association with Ubuntu
> * Tons of other promotional materials


I'd argue that all these other uses, aside from the obvious "kubuntu",
"edubuntu", etc, dilute the brand significance, and are a mis-use of what
should be thought of as part of the circle of friends logo. Not something
meant to ubuntu-i-fize other ordinary text. Even the tag line. Obviously,
what is done is done, and it is too late now.

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu-Title font

[Jan Claeys]

Op woensdag 16-07-2008 om 22:37 uur [tijdzone -0500], schreef Justin
Dugger:
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 8:55 PM, Jan Claeys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I think we (= Ubuntu) should still try to work with him...
> 
> I'm saying that we should exclude anyone; but if you look at the font
> in detail there's significant changes:
> 
> * Many of the strokes have been tapered; take a look at b for example
> * the t ascender was shortened
> * the s and k shapes were significantly tweaked
> * the font seems to render bigger in Inkscape than what's in hardy.
> * 0 and O are indistinguishable
> 
> I'm not saying that we should necessarily override these, but we
> should at least understand them, accept that which is good and improve
> that which can be improved.

Some of your remarks might be caused by rendering issues, some might be
because he thinks they make the font better.  I guess only he can answer
that though...  :)

(He's a professional typeface designer, so his reasons for these changes
might be sound--except for 0 & O looking the same maybe).

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu-Title font

[Justin Dugger]

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 1:11 AM, Ashton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 9:37 PM, Justin Dugger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> I'm not saying that we should necessarily override these, but we
>> should at least understand them, accept that which is good and improve
>> that which can be improved.
>
> I always assumed it (the font) to be a convenience in order to display the
> brand consistently. I've never really thought of using it for anything other
> than "ubuntu". Are there any examples where it is used for other purposes? I
> understand the original post was attempting to use it in a biz card, and I
> suppose I can see the use there, thought not the necessity. Does FedEx, for
> example have their logo dual-purposed as a font?
>
> Not trying to negate the effort to fix or otherwise improve the ubuntu-title
> font. The thread just got me thinking and thought I'd share.
>
> Ashton
>

The font is used in other promotional materials and lettering.  Just a
quick listing off the top of my head:
* the tag line "Linux for human beings"
* The Full Circle Magazine
* Ubuntu Brainstorm logo
* Anywhere you'd like to convey an association with Ubuntu
* Tons of other promotional materials

Additionally, I thought it'd be nice for Ubuntu business cards.  I've
also been looking for a handwritten font style suitable for the
training mode of CellWriter for better prompting, maybe it's a bit too
stylized, but I thought I'd give it a shot.

Justin Dugger

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu-Title font

[Ashton]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 9:37 PM, Justin Dugger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> I'm not saying that we should necessarily override these, but we
> should at least understand them, accept that which is good and improve
> that which can be improved.



I always assumed it (the font) to be a convenience in order to display the
brand consistently. I've never really thought of using it for anything other
than "ubuntu". Are there any examples where it is used for other purposes? I
understand the original post was attempting to use it in a biz card, and I
suppose I can see the use there, thought not the necessity. Does FedEx, for
example have their logo dual-purposed as a font?

Not trying to negate the effort to fix or otherwise improve the ubuntu-title
font. The thread just got me thinking and thought I'd share.

Ashton
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu-Title font

[Justin Dugger]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 8:55 PM, Jan Claeys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think we (= Ubuntu) should still try to work with him...

I'm saying that we should exclude anyone; but if you look at the font
in detail there's significant changes:

* Many of the strokes have been tapered; take a look at b for example
* the t ascender was shortened
* the s and k shapes were significantly tweaked
* the font seems to render bigger in Inkscape than what's in hardy.
* 0 and O are indistinguishable

I'm not saying that we should necessarily override these, but we
should at least understand them, accept that which is good and improve
that which can be improved.

Justin Dugger

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu-Title font

[Cory K.]

Jan Claeys wrote:
> Op maandag 14-07-2008 om 15:32 uur [tijdzone -0500], schreef Justin
> Dugger:
>   
>> Christian Robertson released an improved font
>> (http://betatype.com/node/36) but it was made in fontlab rather than
>> with Ubuntu tools, making it difficult for the Artwork Team to
>> maintain the font. Part of the work may be to integrate his changes,
>> but looking over the changes he's made I'm not sure I agree with all
>> of them.
>> 
>
> I think we (= Ubuntu) should still try to work with him...
>   

He has already been contacted by Canonical. What the status is, I have
no clue.

-Cory K.

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu-Title font

[Jan Claeys]

Op maandag 14-07-2008 om 15:32 uur [tijdzone -0500], schreef Justin
Dugger:
> Christian Robertson released an improved font
> (http://betatype.com/node/36) but it was made in fontlab rather than
> with Ubuntu tools, making it difficult for the Artwork Team to
> maintain the font. Part of the work may be to integrate his changes,
> but looking over the changes he's made I'm not sure I agree with all
> of them.

I think we (= Ubuntu) should still try to work with him...


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu-Title font

[Matthew Nuzum]

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Justin Dugger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 5:36 PM, Matthew Nuzum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I agree - that bug you pointed out shows the need for attention.
>>
>
> Could you mark it confirmed, noting your agreement and referencing
> this conversation?  It's poor form for me to confirm my own bug.
>

Done.

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu-Title font

[Justin Dugger]

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 5:36 PM, Matthew Nuzum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 3:32 PM, Justin Dugger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I appreciate the offers to find another font, but I'd rather put my
>> effort into something unique to Ubuntu than just give up.  If the
>> above works, then I think we can have a much better font by intrepid
>> release.  At the very least, can we agree that the g glyph shipped in
>> hardy is not correct?
>
> I agree - that bug you pointed out shows the need for attention.
>

Could you mark it confirmed, noting your agreement and referencing
this conversation?  It's poor form for me to confirm my own bug.

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu-Title font

[Matthew Nuzum]

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 3:32 PM, Justin Dugger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I appreciate the offers to find another font, but I'd rather put my
> effort into something unique to Ubuntu than just give up.  If the
> above works, then I think we can have a much better font by intrepid
> release.  At the very least, can we agree that the g glyph shipped in
> hardy is not correct?

I agree - that bug you pointed out shows the need for attention.

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu-Title font

[Justin Dugger]

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 8:56 AM, Matthew Nuzum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The title font has improved in its more recent revisions but too many
> of the letters are shaped oddly for general use imho. The problematic
> letter we bumped into most recently was lower case 'w'.

Christian Robertson released an improved font
(http://betatype.com/node/36) but it was made in fontlab rather than
with Ubuntu tools, making it difficult for the Artwork Team to
maintain the font. Part of the work may be to integrate his changes,
but looking over the changes he's made I'm not sure I agree with all
of them.

> I'm using Arial Rounded MT Bold which is a harmonious (but non-free)
> substitute.
> Another nice rounded font that was suggested by the Web Presence team
> is MgOpen Modata, and one that was recommended but which I haven't
> tried is LMSansDemiCondensed Regular available in the lmodern package
> in Ubuntu (part of TeX).

I appreciate the offers to find another font, but I'd rather put my
effort into something unique to Ubuntu than just give up.  If the
above works, then I think we can have a much better font by intrepid
release.  At the very least, can we agree that the g glyph shipped in
hardy is not correct?

Justin Dugger

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu-Title font

[Ashton]

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 7:56 AM, Matthew Nuzum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> The title font has improved in its more recent revisions but too many
> of the letters are shaped oddly for general use imho. The problematic
> letter we bumped into most recently was lower case 'w'.


Is there anyone in particular who handled the revisions? Is it someone in
marketing?


I'm using Arial Rounded MT Bold which is a harmonious (but non-free)
> substitute.
>
> Another nice rounded font that was suggested by the Web Presence team
> is MgOpen Modata, and one that was recommended but which I haven't
> tried is LMSansDemiCondensed Regular available in the lmodern package
> in Ubuntu (part of TeX).



Yet another non-free (sorry) font to add to this list : Vag
Rounded(Adobe)

Ashton
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu-Title font

[Matthew Nuzum]

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 12:45 AM, Justin Dugger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Ubuntu Artwork Team,
>
> I've been tweaking an Ubuntu business card design a little bit, and
> during this discovered the following bug:
> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ttf-ubuntu-title/+bug/247016.
>  It was suggested by a triager that I bring it up on the list, so here
> I am.
>
> What I'd like to do is bring the ubuntu-title font up to everyday
> usable standards. ubuntu-title is a recognizable branding font, used
> in the logos, boot screen, advertising and even some fan magazines.

The title font has improved in its more recent revisions but too many
of the letters are shaped oddly for general use imho. The problematic
letter we bumped into most recently was lower case 'w'.

I'm using Arial Rounded MT Bold which is a harmonious (but non-free)
substitute.

Another nice rounded font that was suggested by the Web Presence team
is MgOpen Modata, and one that was recommended but which I haven't
tried is LMSansDemiCondensed Regular available in the lmodern package
in Ubuntu (part of TeX).

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[ubuntu-art] Ubuntu-Title font

[Justin Dugger]

Hi Ubuntu Artwork Team,

I've been tweaking an Ubuntu business card design a little bit, and
during this discovered the following bug:
https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ttf-ubuntu-title/+bug/247016.
 It was suggested by a triager that I bring it up on the list, so here
I am.

What I'd like to do is bring the ubuntu-title font up to everyday
usable standards. ubuntu-title is a recognizable branding font, used
in the logos, boot screen, advertising and even some fan magazines.
Currently there are a host of silly flaws in letters outside u, b, n,
and t ("ubuntu"). As a simple test of the process, I'd like to fix the
lowercase g glyph.

The steps the Artwork Team might take are:
1. Read the above bug and change the status from "invalid" to
"confirmed" or "triaged" that it should be fixed.
2. Assign it to the Art Team or to someone in particular (I can give it a shot)
3. Upload the suggested fix to a bzr branch
4. Review the fix.
5. Review this process.

I know a lot of people might be afraid of font design, believing it to
be hard and unknowable, so let me demonstrate my own ignorance by
asking a simple question: can anyone get FontForge to use the
ubuntu-title.sfd provided in source package ttf-ubuntu-title in Hardy?
All I get is blanks =(

Justin Dugger

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Re: [ubuntu-art] ubuntu title font

[Michiel Sikma]

Op 21-jun-2006, om 23:29 heeft Niel Drummond het volgende geschreven:


On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 10:27:59 +0200
Michiel Sikma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/ ubuntu-art-titlefont


can you make "ubuntu-art" the assignee to this spec, so it'll show
up on the main ubuntu-artwork spec page
https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-art/+specs
and so we can attach the updated title font to your spec?

thanks

- Niel Drummond



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Yes, done. I'll make a proper spec page later.

Michiel

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Re: [ubuntu-art] ubuntu title font

[Niel Drummond]

On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 10:27:59 +0200
Michiel Sikma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/ ubuntu-art-titlefont

can you make "ubuntu-art" the assignee to this spec, so it'll show
up on the main ubuntu-artwork spec page 
https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-art/+specs
and so we can attach the updated title font to your spec?

thanks

- Niel Drummond

> 
> Michiel
> 

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Re: [ubuntu-art] ubuntu title font

[Michiel Sikma]

Op 20-jun-2006, om 9:39 heeft Oliver Grawert het volgende geschreven:


hi,
Am Dienstag, den 20.06.2006, 08:32 +0100 schrieb Mark Shuttleworth:


Andy Fitzsimon did the first versions of the Ubuntu font - I think he
did it by hand and it was his first font, so cleanup / patches /
improvements welcome!

if you do changes, please use the sourcepackage from the archive as a
base and feel free to send the changes to me to get them included  
in the

package.

ciao
oli
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I think that it would be a good idea to schedule an improvement drive  
for this font. It's the Ubuntu title font, afterall, and used in the  
official logo. Any improvements must be carefully considered. I've  
opened a spec for it here: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/ 
ubuntu-art-titlefont


Michiel

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Re: [ubuntu-art] ubuntu title font

[Oliver Grawert]

hi,
Am Dienstag, den 20.06.2006, 08:32 +0100 schrieb Mark Shuttleworth:
> 
> Andy Fitzsimon did the first versions of the Ubuntu font - I think he
> did it by hand and it was his first font, so cleanup / patches /
> improvements welcome!
if you do changes, please use the sourcepackage from the archive as a
base and feel free to send the changes to me to get them included in the
package.

ciao
oli


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Re: [ubuntu-art] ubuntu title font

[Mark Shuttleworth]

Andy Fitzsimon did the first versions of the Ubuntu font - I think he
did it by hand and it was his first font, so cleanup / patches /
improvements welcome!


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Re: [ubuntu-art] ubuntu title font

[Matthew Nuzum]

On 6/19/06, j michaelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

hello all,

i've downloaded the ubuntu title font and i don't wish to sound rude,
but it's a little rough around the edges. i was using it in inkscape
and i noticed that some of the letters aren't very smooth.

on closer inspection some of the letters have way more nodes than are
neccesary for the shape of the letter. all these extra nodes add
irregularities to the outline of the letters and spoil their
smoothness. the letter "u" is a good example of this, it uses 22 nodes
to draw the letter, when only 10 are needed (i checked).

does anyone know if these letters were designed on a computer program
or were they drawn by hand and then converted?

john m.



I think (note that) the original logo was created by hand, then enough
people said they wished they had the font for new artwork that someone
took it upon themselves to make a functional font. I know the details
are out there in the mailing list archive and probably the package for
the font.

Sorry for the sketchy details, and sorry also for not having names and
links for reference. I personally have a great respect for the artist
who created the text in the original logo. I've not used the title
font so can't speak with authority on that aspect.

--
Matthew Nuzum
www.bearfruit.org

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[ubuntu-art] ubuntu title font

[j michaelson]

hello all,

i've downloaded the ubuntu title font and i don't wish to sound rude,
but it's a little rough around the edges. i was using it in inkscape
and i noticed that some of the letters aren't very smooth.

on closer inspection some of the letters have way more nodes than are
neccesary for the shape of the letter. all these extra nodes add
irregularities to the outline of the letters and spoil their
smoothness. the letter "u" is a good example of this, it uses 22 nodes
to draw the letter, when only 10 are needed (i checked).

does anyone know if these letters were designed on a computer program
or were they drawn by hand and then converted?

john m.

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