Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Jorge Bernal]

On Wednesday 05 April 2006 11:54, Eric Feliksik wrote:
> So after much discussion the global opinion is something like this:
>
> 1) Some like the fancy dialog, some don't

It's consistency over fanciness. Fanciness makes geeks happy. Consistency 
makes better user experience. What do we want?

> 2) Most people agree that the dialog is not completely self-explanatory

This is because of too many options, not icons or labels. I can imagine the 
user shouting "I just want to shutdown the *$% computer".

> 3) because of 2), the sabdfl is in favor of explanatory text (and that's
> the obligatory global opinion then :))

Even sabdfl can be wrong ;) I understand his figure is there for situations 
like this, but the fact he can decide if it's going to happen or not doesn't 
make it a better or worse idea. Also if he thinks that's the final word, he 
just have to say that and discussion is over (well, in theory).

> 4) We all want to offer the user information, but in an implicit/subtle
> way (icons, ordering, short texts) as much as possible (instead of long
> texts)

Simple buttons should be enough

> http://librarian.launchpad.net/1632715/logout4x.png could also use an
> explanatory text, but the end/pause-session division gives us info that
> the icons *don't* (namely, does this log you out or not)
> In the current division (keeprunning/powerdown), the info given is
> redundant (because the powerdown-options have a power-icon, *and* are at
> the bottom)
>
> (SOCIAL NOTE: I restate this, and restate this, maybe to your annoyment.
> Please let me know. I received only a few comments, of which most were
> positive, but further it was mostly ignored. I restate this because I
> feel *lots* of criticism on the current dialog are taken away to some
> extent by this division and the text-headers. If you think this idea
> sucks, *let me know* !)

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

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Hash: SHA1

On Apr 5, 2006, at 9:57 AM, Oliver Grawert wrote:


Am Dienstag, den 04.04.2006, 22:02 +0100 schrieb Henrik Nilsen Omma:


Well, some users want both options, but those who don't know the
difference (which we have established is most people) don't.


Right -- this is another symptom of expecting people to learn the  
difference between RAM and disk, when usually they have better things  
to do.


History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme: in Windows 2000,  
Microsoft offered "Log off", "Shut down", "Restart", "Stand by", and  
"Hibernate" in a single "Shut Down Windows" dialog. Maybe because five  
buttons in one dialog would have been too daunting, or maybe because  
people didn't understand the difference between "Stand by" and  
"Hibernate", Microsoft put these options in a drop-down listbox, with  
explanatory text being shown for the selected item. This made the  
dialog very slow to use.




Windows XP Home split that dialog into two button-based alerts like  
Gnome has done, and turns the "Stand By" button to a "Hibernate" button  
if you hold down the Shift key. (XP Professional retains the single  
dialog with its drop-down listbox.)


If Hibernate tends to fail, then it might be wise to leave that one  
hidden by default and let those who know that a) they want it and b)  
that it works with their hardware can find it and enable it.


the opposite is the case, hibernate works on nearly every laptop,  
while suspend might be tricky for some ... but usually the action  
users want to take (even if they dont know how to name it) is the  
sleep action (because its faster, easier to start up again (on most  
laptops you just have to hit a key on the keyboard to wake up) etc...)

...


Then I again suggest the long-term goal should be merging two or more  
of these commands. Either make "Sleep" suspend to disk and then to RAM,  
so that waking up resumes from RAM if possible and from disk if not  
(Mac OS X does this); or make "Shut Down" suspend to disk (with  
"Restart" still being available for kernel updates and the like), so  
that computers behave more like real desktops; or both.


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http://mpt.net.nz/
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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Eric Feliksik]

So after much discussion the global opinion is something like this:

1) Some like the fancy dialog, some don't
2) Most people agree that the dialog is not completely self-explanatory
3) because of 2), the sabdfl is in favor of explanatory text (and that's 
the obligatory global opinion then :))
4) We all want to offer the user information, but in an implicit/subtle 
way (icons, ordering, short texts) as much as possible (instead of long 
texts)


http://librarian.launchpad.net/1632715/logout4x.png could also use an 
explanatory text, but the end/pause-session division gives us info that 
the icons *don't* (namely, does this log you out or not)
In the current division (keeprunning/powerdown), the info given is 
redundant (because the powerdown-options have a power-icon, *and* are at 
the bottom)


(SOCIAL NOTE: I restate this, and restate this, maybe to your annoyment. 
Please let me know. I received only a few comments, of which most were 
positive, but further it was mostly ignored. I restate this because I 
feel *lots* of criticism on the current dialog are taken away to some 
extent by this division and the text-headers. If you think this idea 
sucks, *let me know* !)


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Eric Feliksik]

Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
A better use of our time would be figuring out how to disable options 
that don't work on specific hardware! Perhaps some sort of "oops I 
failed to hibernate" tracking could be used to hint the system that it 
really, really does not want to offer the hibernate option any more. 
This needs to be robust in the face of minor errors.




Seems relevant to me, my computer often crashes when recovering from a 
hibernation.


(I discussed this with some dev's, and the bug is being triaged, but the 
reality is that we can't guarantee anything yet).


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Matthew East]

On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 22:02 +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote:
> Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
> > Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote:
> >> IMO it would be best to only show one of these options to the average 
> >> user. (It would be useful to have some real-world data on which of 
> >> these people use most often -- sleep I guess -- and how many people 
> >> regularly use both options.
> > Except there's a darn good reason why on some occasions you want one 
> > option, and on others, you want the other.
> 
> Well, some users want both options, but those who don't know the 
> difference (which we have established is most people) don't.

And almost all users that will use hibernate and standby are laptop
users. Am I wrong in thinking that these are options which are generally
activated by pressing the relevant function key on the laptop? I
certainly have never used these options in the logout menu.

Another thing to consider is that hibernate on linux is really not
working particularly well: on my computer it takes about the same amount
of time to hibernate and come back up as it does to reboot.

But the main problem here, as vuntz pointed out, is really that there
are lots of things in the logout dialogue that shouldn't be there, or at
best, should be in a separate dialogue.

adding 2 more cents to the ever-increasing pot.

Matt
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Jean-Denis Vauguet]

Mark Shuttleworth a écrit :
> Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote:
>> IMO it would be best to only show one of these options to the average
>> user. (It would be useful to have some real-world data on which of
>> these people use most often -- sleep I guess -- and how many people
>> regularly use both options.
> Except there's a darn good reason why on some occasions you want one
> option, and on others, you want the other.
> 
> A better use of our time would be figuring out how to disable options
> that don't work on specific hardware! Perhaps some sort of "oops I
> failed to hibernate" tracking could be used to hint the system that it
> really, really does not want to offer the hibernate option any more.
> This needs to be robust in the face of minor errors.

(Hello, I'm new on the list although I've been reading/lurking for a
long time now). Yes, smart idea. And there is also the case of
"software": for example, when there is only one user (and sudo/root),
the Switch user option is not relevant, is it?

Anyway, as an average joe, I'd rather prefer useless/removable options
to hidden ones, especially regarding the most important part of the GUI,
since it may be destabilizing.

(Sorry Mark for the private mail, I missed the Answer *all* button *shame*).




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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Victoria Greeven]

moin moin ;-)

I am such an user, who doesn't know the difference - and I tell you - I 
am confused about that really big Logout-"picture" with so many options. 
In Germany we sometimes say "weniger ist mehr" (less is more) and so I 
agree with Henrik. Those users, who want to use "hibernate" will find it 
- the others will be glad, not to be confronted with another option.

Greetings from the noobs
 Victoria

Henrik Nilsen Omma schrieb:
Well, some users want both options, but those who don't know the 
difference (which we have established is most people) don't. If 
Hibernate tends to fail, then it might be wise to leave that one 
hidden by default and let those who know that a) they want it and b) 
that it works with their hardware can find it and enable it.


 - Henrik

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Oliver Grawert]

hi,
Am Dienstag, den 04.04.2006, 22:02 +0100 schrieb Henrik Nilsen Omma:
> Well, some users want both options, but those who don't know the 
> difference (which we have established is most people) don't. If 
> Hibernate tends to fail, then it might be wise to leave that one hidden 
> by default and let those who know that a) they want it and b) that it 
> works with their hardware can find it and enable it.
the opposite is the case, hibernate works on nearly every laptop, while
suspend might be tricky for some ... but usually the action users want
to take (even if they dont know how to name it) is the sleep action
(because its faster, easier to start up again (on most laptops you just
have to hit a key on the keyboard to wake up) etc...) 

from personal experience, i use hibernate only if i travel longer
distance, at home i just put my lappie to sleep and can wake it up the
next day by hitting the spacebar and just start working, while hibernate
involves a good bunch of the bootprocess.

ciao
oli


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Vincent Untz]

Le mardi 04 avril 2006 à 16:57 +0100, Who a écrit :
> I think that the new logout dialog (I.E the one with the description)
> 
> 1. Is very professional (especially the way it appears when the power
> button is pressed)
> 2. Very clearly describes what each option does, which is important
> for new users and the kind of 'average joe' users Ubuntu wishes to
> attract and keep.
> 3. Doesn't add any more clicks than it took to shut down with the old
> dialog in order to shutdown

4. Doesn't feel like a GNOME dialog. There's just too many choices in
there.

I've already stated this in the past and I don't we to show stop energy,
so I've been trying to not answer on this thread again :-)

I truly appreciate Manu's work on this. But I feel he worked towards one
goal that was set (one big logout dialog) and that this goal is not the
correct one.

(I'm not saying the upstream version is better: although I prefer it,
the dialogs also have a couple of issues)

Let's step back a bit.

Why do we want one and only one dialog?
What are the usual actions the user will do with this (or these)
dialog(s)?

Vincent

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Henrik Nilsen Omma]

Mark Shuttleworth wrote:

Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote:
IMO it would be best to only show one of these options to the average 
user. (It would be useful to have some real-world data on which of 
these people use most often -- sleep I guess -- and how many people 
regularly use both options.
Except there's a darn good reason why on some occasions you want one 
option, and on others, you want the other.


Well, some users want both options, but those who don't know the 
difference (which we have established is most people) don't. If 
Hibernate tends to fail, then it might be wise to leave that one hidden 
by default and let those who know that a) they want it and b) that it 
works with their hardware can find it and enable it.


 - Henrik

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Mark Shuttleworth]

Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote:
IMO it
would be best to only show one of these options to the average user.
(It would be useful to have some real-world data on which of these
people use most often -- sleep I guess -- and how many people regularly
use both options.
  

Except there's a darn good reason why on some occasions you want one
option, and on others, you want the other.

A better use of our time would be figuring out how to disable options
that don't work on specific hardware! Perhaps some sort of "oops I
failed to hibernate" tracking could be used to hint the system that it
really, really does not want to offer the hibernate option any more.
This needs to be robust in the face of minor errors.

Mark


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Henrik Nilsen Omma]

Andy Somerville wrote:

I think theres hardly anyone (who doesnt know beforehand) who thinks
the hibernate/sleep functionality is clear. Maybe its been suggested
before, but should we consider renaming these? (regardless of what
other changes are made)


IMO it would be best to only show one of these options to the average 
user. (It would be useful to have some real-world data on which of these 
people use most often -- sleep I guess -- and how many people regularly 
use both options.


We could add a tab to the System -> Preferences -> Power Management 
settings that let you configure the log out dialogue. The dialogue would 
only have 'Sleep' by default, making it less confusing to new users, but 
you could add the 'Hibernate' button via a check box under Power 
Management, where you could also uncheck the 'Sleep' option if you 
wanted. The power management dialogue could contain a more detailed 
explanation of the difference between the two so we don't have to put 
that on the log out screen.


This would be fairly discoverable since someone with the question 'How 
can I get my computer to Hibernate' would be likely to look under Power 
Management after a bit of searching.


 - Henrik

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Andy Somerville]

>  Ok, but then the real question is, then: Do you think it's clear, now? Do
> you think Aunt Tilly understands the difference between hibernation,
> shutdown and sleep? Logout and switch user?
>
>
>  It's fantasy to think that icons alone will convey the difference between
> hibernation and suspension. I enjoy that sort of commentary, but I also know
> we have to stay focused on the reality of user knowledge and insight. *I*
> was not even clear on this till recently.

I think theres hardly anyone (who doesnt know beforehand) who thinks
the hibernate/sleep functionality is clear. Maybe its been suggested
before, but should we consider renaming these? (regardless of what
other changes are made)

Im not really shure what would be clear, but heres a few out-loud thoughts:
Sleep:Hibernate:
- QuickSleep  - DeepSleep(PowerDown)
-- Freeze to Disk
-- DeepFreeze
-- SaveForLater
- EnergySave  -
- PowerSave   -
- Pause  - SessionToDisk

 Andy

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Mark Shuttleworth]

Manu Cornet wrote:

  As a matter of fact, I seldom do mere mockups, most of the time I also
write actual patches (and I sent this one to Seb by email along with
those captures) :) Seems like it is on its way to be uploaded soon.
  

Rock star :-)

  Huh, did I misunderstand the meaning of "factor in" ? :)
  

No, you got it SPOT ON!

Mark


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Mark Shuttleworth]

Eric Feliksik wrote:
Matthew East
wrote:
  
  Just to stick in two more cents, I agree with
mpt: a logout dialogue

that needs explanatory text is _really_ doing something wrong. The

labels and the icons should be clear enough.


Matt


  
  
Ok, but then the real question is, then: Do you think it's clear, now?
Do you think Aunt Tilly understands the difference between hibernation,
shutdown and sleep? Logout and switch user?
  


It's fantasy to think that icons alone will convey the difference
between hibernation and suspension. I enjoy that sort of commentary,
but I also know we have to stay focused on the reality of user
knowledge and insight. *I* was not even clear on this till recently.

So, +1 to the mockup with explanatory text, and let's see if there's
time to get that added.

Mark



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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Tristan Wibberley]

Who wrote:

> I think that the new logout dialog (I.E the one with the description)
> 
> 1. Is very professional (especially the way it appears when the power
> button is pressed)

I didn't notice that before. It's really nice, but the logout options
shouldn't be there in that case. IMHO, you should get the GNOME 2.14
System->Shut Down but with the Ubuntu icons.


> 2. Very clearly describes what each option does, which is important
> for new users and the kind of 'average joe' users Ubuntu wishes to
> attract and keep.

++good;

> 3. Doesn't add any more clicks than it took to shut down with the old
> dialog in order to shutdown

++good;

> And if I were to improve it I would change the following - which make
> life quicker and easier for regular/power users.
> 
> 1. When the power button is pushed _twice_ the computer shuts down


Yes, that would be nice, as long as there was a sufficient blackout
period to account for twitches.


> 2. On start-up (of the dialog) one icon should be selected so that
> pushing Enter does that action. This should be either: always 'Shut
> Down', or the option the use rlast used


I don't know about that. If the use selects a menu item called Log Out,
then it should be Log Out that enter presses (and that one should be the
rightmost option to avoid people going for the wrong option having
gotten used to GNOME). Shut down isn't necessarily the right thing to do
when the power button is pressed - if hibernate works, that might be
what the user expects.


> 3. (going too far and overcomplicating things) Icons should be
> drag/dropable on to the desktop/panel so that you can
> logout/shutdown/hibernate etc without using that dialog.

I'm not sure that would be a very good idea. Some users swing the mouse
wildly when attempting a click, and they could put these icons on the
desktop one day by mistake, and click it instead of something else the
next. That's okay for most things, but some of these options can be
destructive.


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Manu Cornet]

Hi !

> > http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/dialog.png
> > http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/logout.png
> > http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/hibernate.png
> Interesting!
>   
> I quite like the explanatory text. Daniel, is that easy to factor in?

As a matter of fact, I seldom do mere mockups, most of the time I also
write actual patches (and I sent this one to Seb by email along with
those captures) :) Seems like it is on its way to be uploaded soon.

Huh, did I misunderstand the meaning of "factor in" ? :)

Cheers,
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Who]

On 4/4/06, Petr Tomeš <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 2006/4/4, Sandis Neilands <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > I agree with you. So far i haven't seen any advantage in using
> > ubuntu's custom logout instead of gnome's default. I know this is
> > unpopular but
> > 1) If the new logout doesn't solve more (or more important) problems
> > than it creates or
> > 2) we are victims of NIH syndrome
> > then we should ditch it and revert to default.
>
> I fully support your idea.

I think that the new logout dialog (I.E the one with the description)

1. Is very professional (especially the way it appears when the power
button is pressed)
2. Very clearly describes what each option does, which is important
for new users and the kind of 'average joe' users Ubuntu wishes to
attract and keep.
3. Doesn't add any more clicks than it took to shut down with the old
dialog in order to shutdown

And if I were to improve it I would change the following - which make
life quicker and easier for regular/power users.

1. When the power button is pushed _twice_ the computer shuts down
2. On start-up (of the dialog) one icon should be selected so that
pushing Enter does that action. This should be either: always 'Shut
Down', or the option the use rlast used
3. (going too far and overcomplicating things) Icons should be
drag/dropable on to the desktop/panel so that you can
logout/shutdown/hibernate etc without using that dialog.

All I would change is the name in the system menu - and make it 'Leave
the Computer'

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Petr Tomeš]

2006/4/4, Sandis Neilands <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I agree with you. So far i haven't seen any advantage in using
> ubuntu's custom logout instead of gnome's default. I know this is
> unpopular but
> 1) If the new logout doesn't solve more (or more important) problems
> than it creates or
> 2) we are victims of NIH syndrome
> then we should ditch it and revert to default.

I fully support your idea.

Petr Tomeš,
Ubuntu CZ - http://www.ubuntu.cz/
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Sandis Neilands]

Hello!

On 4/4/06, Eric Feliksik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ok, but then the real question is, then: Do you think it's clear, now?
> Do you think Aunt Tilly understands the difference between hibernation,
> shutdown and sleep? Logout and switch user?
>
> I personally don't think so. So we either have to come up with a way to
> make it logical, which is inherently difficult because the differences
> in the options are both subtle but complex at the same time.

I agree with you. So far i haven't seen any advantage in using
ubuntu's custom logout instead of gnome's default. I know this is
unpopular but
1) If the new logout doesn't solve more (or more important) problems
than it creates or
2) we are victims of NIH syndrome
then we should ditch it and revert to default.

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Eric Feliksik]

Matthew East wrote:

Just to stick in two more cents, I agree with mpt: a logout dialogue
that needs explanatory text is _really_ doing something wrong. The
labels and the icons should be clear enough.

Matt



Ok, but then the real question is, then: Do you think it's clear, now? 
Do you think Aunt Tilly understands the difference between hibernation, 
shutdown and sleep? Logout and switch user?


I personally don't think so. So we either have to come up with a way to 
make it logical, which is inherently difficult because the differences 
in the options are both subtle but complex at the same time.


If we can't make an icon describe that hibernate will turn off the 
computer and not log you out, then a help text is better then nothing... 
 I think?



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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Matthew East]

On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 11:48 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
> Manu Cornet wrote:
> > Here's a new version of the dialog :
> > 
> > http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/dialog.png
> > http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/logout.png
> > http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/hibernate.png

> I quite like the explanatory text. Daniel, is that easy to factor in?

Just to stick in two more cents, I agree with mpt: a logout dialogue
that needs explanatory text is _really_ doing something wrong. The
labels and the icons should be clear enough.

Matt
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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Who]

> >
> > * "Log out" as the name of the menu entry is definitely misleading, and
> > we're trying to find the best wording to replace it (suggestions
> > welcome !).

How about 'Leave the Computer'

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Mark Shuttleworth]

Manu Cornet wrote:

  Here's a new version of the dialog :

	http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/dialog.png
	http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/logout.png
	http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/hibernate.png

Interesting!

  Many people found that the dialog was too large ; therefore, I stacked
the help messages next to the "Cancel" button and reduced the spacing a
bit. This also solves a few layout problems (expanding window). Comments
welcome.
  

I quite like the explanatory text. Daniel, is that easy to factor in?


Mark


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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Brad Johnson]

On Fri, 2006-03-31 at 21:53 +0200, Manu Cornet wrote:
> 
> Hi !
> 
> Here's a new version of the dialog :
> 
>   http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/dialog.png
>   http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/logout.png
>   http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/hibernate.png
> 
> Many people found that the dialog was too large ; therefore, I stacked
> the help messages next to the "Cancel" button and reduced the spacing a
> bit. This also solves a few layout problems (expanding window). Comments
> welcome.

It still seems bulky to me. The horizontal divider doesn't do much to
break up the two distinct option categories. Please excuse my cheap Gimp
tricks but how about something like this?

http://nerp.net/~brad/ExitDialog.png

IMO the two line text window in the middle breaks up the dialog and
takes away alot of the bulk. It also separates "session options" from
"system options".

> About the choice of designing a dialog with 6 or 7 options, I'm not the
> one who decides about this (I'm just trying to make a good layout with
> nice icons and text), but I do think it's a logical choice.

I don't know if the number of options really matters if all of the
options don't seem grouped together.
> 
> * I believe the main purpose for this multi-option dialog is to let
> users have this main "top-right applet" flow to let them perform all
> "exit" action.
> 
> * "Log out" as the name of the menu entry is definitely misleading, and
> we're trying to find the best wording to replace it (suggestions
> welcome !).

"Exit" should do, IMHO.
> 
> * The dialog indeed has many options. I agree that some of those should
> be activated automatically (eg when a laptop lid is closed), but those
> automatic behaviors are not yet working as they should, and meanwhile we
> probably need the options in a dialog.
> 
> Cheers,
> Manu
> 
> 


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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Eric Feliksik]

Manu Cornet wrote:

* "Log out" as the name of the menu entry is definitely misleading, and
we're trying to find the best wording to replace it (suggestions
welcome !).


If we put them all together, maybe "exit" is the right word. Whether you 
 lock&leave or log-out, that's up to you. Either you exit your session 
and continue working, or you stop working and exit the room.
Don't know how well this translates, maybe "leave" can be translated, 
but in English "exit" is more recognized for these tasks.


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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Tristan Wibberley]

Manu Cornet wrote:

> About the choice of designing a dialog with 6 or 7 options, I'm not
> the one who decides about this (I'm just trying to make a good layout
> with nice icons and text), but I do think it's a logical choice.
>
> * I believe the main purpose for this multi-option dialog is to let
> users have this main "top-right applet" flow to let them perform all
> "exit" action.

Then shouldn't this be a separate dialogue? I don't even *have* the top
right button - my panel stops about halfway across the screen and it
doesn't have the button even then. IMHO, this is a foolish consistency.

Personally, if you're just trying to give a quick way to manage your
session and computer power state, I think the dialogue that you get from
that button should just have log out, lock screen (named "Lock
Session"), hibernate (named "Power Off") or shutdown if hibernate is not
considered safe, and cancel. If they want to do anything else, there is
always System->Log Out, and System->Shut Down (or there was in GNOME
2.14). If it were done like that I think it would then make a lot of
sense to have such different actions on the dialogue. Maybe alter the
GNOME dialogues to give the same feel as the top-right exit icon - and
this dialogue *does* feel *really* nice.

> * "Log out" as the name of the menu entry is definitely misleading,
> and we're trying to find the best wording to replace it (suggestions
> welcome !).

See above re the foolish consistency. If it's such a labour to have it
all make sense the user probably won't fathom the chosen idiom.

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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Manu Cornet]

Hi !

> I think changing the wording of the tooltip of the logout applet would
> help clarify its purpose. Currently it says "Log out of this session
> to log in as a different users" - that doesn't give any hints that it
> contains other, more useful options.

Yes, that's being worked on as well, see bug #33315.

Cheers,
Manu


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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Øivind Hoel]

On 3/31/06, Manu Cornet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Hi !
>
> Here's a new version of the dialog :
>
> http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/dialog.png
> http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/logout.png
> http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/hibernate.png
>
> Many people found that the dialog was too large ; therefore, I stacked
> the help messages next to the "Cancel" button and reduced the spacing a
> bit. This also solves a few layout problems (expanding window). Comments
> welcome.
>
> About the choice of designing a dialog with 6 or 7 options, I'm not the
> one who decides about this (I'm just trying to make a good layout with
> nice icons and text), but I do think it's a logical choice.
>
> * I believe the main purpose for this multi-option dialog is to let
> users have this main "top-right applet" flow to let them perform all
> "exit" action.
>
> * "Log out" as the name of the menu entry is definitely misleading, and
> we're trying to find the best wording to replace it (suggestions
> welcome !).
>
> * The dialog indeed has many options. I agree that some of those should
> be activated automatically (eg when a laptop lid is closed), but those
> automatic behaviors are not yet working as they should, and meanwhile we
> probably need the options in a dialog.

I think changing the wording of the tooltip of the logout applet would
help clarify its purpose. Currently it says "Log out of this session
to log in as a different users" - that doesn't give any hints that it
contains other, more useful options.

Also, as I understand, gnome-power-manager runs by default (does it
get added to the panel on upgrades?), and includes the right-click
options sleep and hibernate already, making the logout applet ones
kind of redundant.

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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Manu Cornet]

Hi !

Here's a new version of the dialog :

http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/dialog.png
http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/logout.png
http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/hibernate.png

Many people found that the dialog was too large ; therefore, I stacked
the help messages next to the "Cancel" button and reduced the spacing a
bit. This also solves a few layout problems (expanding window). Comments
welcome.

About the choice of designing a dialog with 6 or 7 options, I'm not the
one who decides about this (I'm just trying to make a good layout with
nice icons and text), but I do think it's a logical choice.

* I believe the main purpose for this multi-option dialog is to let
users have this main "top-right applet" flow to let them perform all
"exit" action.

* "Log out" as the name of the menu entry is definitely misleading, and
we're trying to find the best wording to replace it (suggestions
welcome !).

* The dialog indeed has many options. I agree that some of those should
be activated automatically (eg when a laptop lid is closed), but those
automatic behaviors are not yet working as they should, and meanwhile we
probably need the options in a dialog.

Cheers,
Manu


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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[John Nilsson]

On Fri, 2006-03-31 at 12:37 +0200, Eric Feliksik wrote:
> It is late in the release cycle, and chances are the dialog won't/can't 
> be changed anymore, but you constructive suggestions are always most 
> welcome. (Pointing to the things that are currently bad is ok, but 
> suggesting a nicer alternative is better).

Yeah, I know. I'm sorry. I guess some frustration got through there.
I've been trying to suggest that some of the unrelated functionality
would be better off in the "System" menu.

Regards,
John


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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Eric Feliksik]

John Nilsson wrote:

On Thu, 2006-03-30 at 21:13 +0200, Eric Feliksik wrote:
I agree with you that the dialog doesn't "talk by itself". This could be 
softened by a help-thing, which is better than nothing. But can we do 
something about the problem itself?


Isn't the problem that it tries to do to much?

It's called the "logout dialog", to me this is a small hint that you use
it when you want to logout.

Why is it crammed with all the other cruft?



It it's "crammed with all the cruft" because we wanted to provide all 
those options to our users, and we didn't know how to do it better.


I agree the dialog is sub-optimal. I agree "log out dialog" isn't 
appropriate when more than half of the options don't log you out.


Do you have a good suggestion for improvement? Something constructive 
(like http://librarian.launchpad.net/1632715/logout4x.png vs. current 
dialog, other possible approaches, etcetera)


It is late in the release cycle, and chances are the dialog won't/can't 
be changed anymore, but you constructive suggestions are always most 
welcome. (Pointing to the things that are currently bad is ok, but 
suggesting a nicer alternative is better).


Thanks,
Eric


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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[John Nilsson]

On Thu, 2006-03-30 at 21:13 +0200, Eric Feliksik wrote:
> I agree with you that the dialog doesn't "talk by itself". This could be 
> softened by a help-thing, which is better than nothing. But can we do 
> something about the problem itself?

Isn't the problem that it tries to do to much?

It's called the "logout dialog", to me this is a small hint that you use
it when you want to logout.

Why is it crammed with all the other cruft?

-- 
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You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your
grandmother. -- Albert Einstein


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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Andy Somerville]

On 3/30/06, Eric Feliksik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We can to make the dialog "talk by itself" with
> 1) distinctive icons
> 2) naming of options (hibernate, shutdown, reboot)
> 3) subdivision of options (possibly in different dialogs)
> 4) naming the subdivisions
> 5) 


6) Profit!

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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Eric Feliksik]

Jorge Bernal wrote:

On Thursday 30 March 2006 15:23, Eric Feliksik wrote:

You have a point there, but the explanation is not making things
complicated; it's only an acknowledgement of the fact that the *options*
are complicated.


The point is that there are too many options


(...)
Whatever the subdivision is, if the help-stuff is subtle (for example at
the bottom), the help-stuff itself does not complicate things.


Help is not bad by nature *but* the point here is that having to show help is 
a symptom of bad design. A logout dialog should be simple enough to talk by 
itself.




We can to make the dialog "talk by itself" with
1) distinctive icons
2) naming of options (hibernate, shutdown, reboot)
3) subdivision of options (possibly in different dialogs)
4) naming the subdivisions
5) 

That's what's attempted in the current dialog, and also in 
http://librarian.launchpad.net/1632715/logout4x.png , although in a 
different way.


I agree with you that the dialog doesn't "talk by itself". This could be 
softened by a help-thing, which is better than nothing. But can we do 
something about the problem itself?



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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Jorge Bernal]

On Thursday 30 March 2006 15:23, Eric Feliksik wrote:
> You have a point there, but the explanation is not making things
> complicated; it's only an acknowledgement of the fact that the *options*
> are complicated.

The point is that there are too many options

> That can be changed by either removing options (sleep, hibernate,
> restart) which we don't want, or by splitting the stuff in sections.
> Currently the division is "low impact on system" vs. "high impact". I'm
> in favor of "pause session" vs. "end session" (which would put
> hibernate/switch-user/lock in the first an reboot/shutdown/logout in the
> last).
>
> Whatever the subdivision is, if the help-stuff is subtle (for example at
> the bottom), the help-stuff itself does not complicate things.

Help is not bad by nature *but* the point here is that having to show help is 
a symptom of bad design. A logout dialog should be simple enough to talk by 
itself.

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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Eric Feliksik]

Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Mar 27, 2006, at 10:59 AM, Brad Johnson wrote:

...
If you wish to have only one help text area, then the layout of the
entire panel should be changed IMHO. Possibly like this example offered
by Øivind Hoel.

/---\
|   |   |
| [I] Log out   | Click this button if you want |
| (I) Switch user   | to log out of your session.   |
| (I) Lock screen   | You will be greeted by the|
|---| GDM login screen once your|
| (I) Sleep | session has ended.|
| (I) Hibernate |   |
| (I) Restart   |   |
| (I) Shut down |   |
|   |   |
\---/
...


There could even be a wizard to help people decide which option to 
choose ...


But seriously, if I discovered that any other device I'd bought had a 
power switch this complicated, I'd return it to the shop for a refund.


- -- Matthew Paul Thomas


You have a point there, but the explanation is not making things 
complicated; it's only an acknowledgement of the fact that the *options* 
are complicated.


That can be changed by either removing options (sleep, hibernate, 
restart) which we don't want, or by splitting the stuff in sections.
Currently the division is "low impact on system" vs. "high impact". I'm 
in favor of "pause session" vs. "end session" (which would put 
hibernate/switch-user/lock in the first an reboot/shutdown/logout in the 
last).


Whatever the subdivision is, if the help-stuff is subtle (for example at 
the bottom), the help-stuff itself does not complicate things.


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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Mar 27, 2006, at 10:59 AM, Brad Johnson wrote:

...
If you wish to have only one help text area, then the layout of the
entire panel should be changed IMHO. Possibly like this example offered
by Øivind Hoel.

/---\
|   |   |
| [I] Log out   | Click this button if you want |
| (I) Switch user   | to log out of your session.   |
| (I) Lock screen   | You will be greeted by the|
|---| GDM login screen once your|
| (I) Sleep | session has ended.|
| (I) Hibernate |   |
| (I) Restart   |   |
| (I) Shut down |   |
|   |   |
\---/
...


There could even be a wizard to help people decide which option to 
choose ...


But seriously, if I discovered that any other device I'd bought had a 
power switch this complicated, I'd return it to the shop for a refund.


- -- 
Matthew Paul Thomas

http://mpt.net.nz/
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin)

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2OLcPWPQUdNbzZQWFfZXcw8=
=202A
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Jorge Bernal]

On Sunday 26 March 2006 19:58, Manu Cornet wrote:
> Hi !
>
> Since the UI freeze has been postponed a few weeks, I have made a try at
> enhancing the current logout dialog.
>
> The main idea is that since there are so many options in there, users
> might get lost (eg, what's the difference between Sleep and
> Hibernate ?). I had first implemented tooltips, but the faded background
> doesn't redraw correctly behind them, and I can't see an easy fix for
> that.
>

I think the point here is removing options. Adding more information (although 
it's help) makes it more confusing ever.

And BTW, not every laptop comes back from sleep by pressing a key :)

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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Eric Feliksik]

Adam Petaccia wrote:

I think there needs to be consistency with wording on what the key verb
should be.  The Log out option doesn't even "log out" in the text, but
the others have "Let your computer %s".  I'm in favor of _not_ repeating
the option in the descriptive text, so perhaps hibernate could read
"Turn the computer off, and restore applications when its next turned
on" or something along those lines.


I agree. The option itself tells something, it needs no repetition.
Maybe we could make the helpful text consist of two parts. The first one
is a very short definition of what the option does, and, if needed, a
second part gives some explanation about it's consequences. Mabye 
seperate them with a newline.


Something like this (in the wording, I'm not really consistent in "your 
session will end" or "open applications will be restored):


Log out:
Close your session so that other users can log in.
Switch user:
Log in with another user.
Your session will continue when the other user logs out.
* (unfortunately this is not true by definition; see
https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/36832 )
Lock screen:
Protect your running programs.
Your password is required to continue this session,
but other users can log in with their account.
Sleep:
Save power.
You can return to this session by pressing any key.
* (note I mention the fact that the session is not ended)
Hibernate:
Turn off the computer.
When started again, all open applications will be restored.
Restart:
Restart the computer.
Shut down:
Turn off the computer.

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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Eric Feliksik]

Manu Cornet wrote:

And how do you like this "status label" idea ?


It's great. Thanks to Øivind Hoel for bringing up this idea, and kudos 
to you for implementing it!



Sven Jaborek wrote:

Where
can i deactivate sleep/suspend and does this remove the buttons from the
logout dialog? I ask because both of my machines never wake up when i
use sleep or suspend.


I have the same problem, but didn't yet file a bug on it. I'll do it in 
a minute,


Tristan Wibberley wrote:

 Alain Perry wrote:

Why not always display something ?
ie: "Run your mouse over a button to get some help on its action." or
something better worded.


Yeah, and since it is dynamic, and not a label, it should have a border.
That would help for when there is a large difference in the amount of
wording between options.



I agree, it would be nice if the dynamic texts somehow stands out.

Brad Johnson wrote:

If you wish to have only one help text area, then the layout of the
entire panel should be changed IMHO. Possibly like this example offered
by Øivind Hoel.


I have a few problems with that:
1) if we are to keep the current big icons with the text underneath, we 
want to order them horizontally. Otherwize all text and icon parts are 
alternating, which provides no good overview. If we order the options 
vertically, the text-parts should indeed be right of the icons, as in 
the ascii-mockup of of Øivind Hoel.
2) Because we need more width than height for the text are, and we want 
it to be a bit subtle, the right-side isn't really appropriate. It would 
take half the dialog.


I think if we make the text somehow stand out (by a border), it would 
just look great. (The border-line between the two icon rows could be 
shorter, to make it a softer seperation).


Thanks, great work! :-)

Eric

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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Tristan Wibberley]

On Sun, 2006-03-26 at 21:35 +0200, Alain Perry wrote:
> 2006/3/26, Manu Cornet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > What do you guys think is the best solution for this ?
> 
> Why not always display something ?
> ie: "Run your mouse over a button to get some help on its action." or
> something better worded.

Yeah, and since it is dynamic, and not a label, it should have a border.
That would help for when there is a large difference in the amount of
wording between options.

Also, you should preflow all the texts, each in their own box, and
switch between them. That way the box will be sized correctly for all of
the texts within any given language.

I don't know if there is a widget that can be used for that.

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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Brad Johnson]

On Sun, 2006-03-26 at 19:58 +0200, Manu Cornet wrote:
> 
> Hi !
> 
> Since the UI freeze has been postponed a few weeks, I have made a try at
> enhancing the current logout dialog.
> 
> The main idea is that since there are so many options in there, users
> might get lost (eg, what's the difference between Sleep and
> Hibernate ?). I had first implemented tooltips, but the faded background
> doesn't redraw correctly behind them, and I can't see an easy fix for
> that.
> 
> Therefore, I just made a space below the buttons to display a help label
> as the mouse goes over the various buttons. Here's how it looks :

If you are going to add a help label there should be some default text
in that label by default.

If the Log Out options are going to be separated from the Shutdown
options with a separator, there should be help text for each section.
Help text for the Log Out options should appear below the icons but
above the separator. Help text for the Shutdown options should appear
where it does in your example. Some possible default help text for each
section could be as simple as "Log Out Options" and "Shutdown Options".

If you wish to have only one help text area, then the layout of the
entire panel should be changed IMHO. Possibly like this example offered
by Øivind Hoel.

/---\
|   |   |
| [I] Log out   | Click this button if you want |
| (I) Switch user   | to log out of your session.   |
| (I) Lock screen   | You will be greeted by the|
|---| GDM login screen once your|
| (I) Sleep | session has ended.|
| (I) Hibernate |   |
| (I) Restart   |   |
| (I) Shut down |   |
|   |   |
\---/

> 
>   http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/logout.png
>   http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/sleep.png
> 
> (these are actual screenshots, not mockups: I already wrote the code).
> 
> That's the general idea (of course, it needs refining for spacing,
> wording, and maybe add an additional separator, etc.). 
> 
> I still have a problem with the label's size. My small text for
> Hibernate doesn't fit in one line, and displaying it resizes the
> dialog :
> 
>   http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/hibernate.png
> 
> And then, when another one-lined text is displayed again, I get the same
> problem with the background not redrawing correctly :
> 
>   http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/restart_bad.png
> 
> I guess it would be best to keep the dialog's size constant. But if I
> allow too big a space by default (even when no text is displayed), the
> bottom of the dialog really looks weird and empty when the pointer is
> away from all buttons. And I can't assume all help texts will fit in one
> line (or two, for that matter) in all languages.
> 
> What do you guys think is the best solution for this ?
> 
> And how do you like this "status label" idea ?
> 
> Cheers,
> Manu
> 
> 


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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Alain Perry]

2006/3/26, Manu Cornet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> What do you guys think is the best solution for this ?

Why not always display something ?
ie: "Run your mouse over a button to get some help on its action." or
something better worded.

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Alain Perry

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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

[Adam Petaccia]

On Sun, 2006-03-26 at 19:58 +0200, Manu Cornet wrote:

> 
> What do you guys think is the best solution for this ?
I think there needs to be consistency with wording on what the key verb
should be.  The Log out option doesn't even "log out" in the text, but
the others have "Let your computer %s".  I'm in favor of _not_ repeating
the option in the descriptive text, so perhaps hibernate could read
"Turn the computer off, and restore applications when its next turned
on" or something along those lines.

> 
> And how do you like this "status label" idea ?
I love it.

This so far is my favorite log out dialog.


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