Re: Default Browser Follow-up
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Michael Hall wrote on 14/08/13 21:09: On 08/14/2013 02:48 PM, Benjamin Kerensa wrote: ... I do not think the any technically valid reasons have been discussed actually. Most of the feedback has been in opposition of changing to Chromium not supporting the change. That most feedback on a change is negative doesn't necessarily mean the change is misguided. Opponents are often more motivated to give feedback than supporters are. I do not believe this is a decision that Jason and the Desktop Team get to make which is why they opened it up to feedback from all developers and the support was just not there had it been then the change would have been made. I think you are absolutely right that there is not going to be a 100% consensus for this change because in reality the support is not there and no solid technical justification has been provided. Firefox can do all of the things that Jason outlined that Chromium does the fact of the matter is that Jason and the new maintainer are Chromium users and would like everyone else to use their favorite browser versus sticking with Firefox which has been a reliable choice for Ubuntu. Let's please keep the technical decision making based on technical discussion and merits. Which browser Ubuntu ships by default is not personal. Technical reasons are not the only valid reasons. And it's understandable that someone might start wondering about non-technical reasons after continued vagueness about which reasons are important. In January 2010, Rick Spencer announced that Ubuntu's default search engine would change from Google to Yahoo. The rationale was straightforward and sensible: Ubuntu relies on Canonical's sponsorship, Canonical is funded in part by search engine revenue sharing, Yahoo was a reasonable choice, and they had offered to share more than Google did. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2010-January/002396.html We ended up switching back to Google before the 10.04 release. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2010-April/030589.html Were those technical decisions? No, they were financial ones. Were they reasonable all the same? Absolutely. If a similar thing is happening with the default browser, we could say so. Then discussion could focus on whether Chromium is a reasonable choice, rather than on which browser is marginally *technically* better than the other. Ok lets judge browsers on their implementations, support models and road maps all of which Firefox triumphs at. Lets not change to Chromium because it fancies a minority in our community. (57% of people voted to keep Firefox two months ago http://polldaddy.com/poll/7108833/?view=results) I agree that we should use those criteria to judge, as well as any other *technical* criteria that is relevant, such as compatibility with our other form factors (we use WebKit for webbrowser-app on Touch, and there are QML bindings for WebKit in our SDK). There are many things to consider in this, but an online poll isn't one of them. ... Chromium does not use WebKit. It uses Blink. If you did not know that, perhaps you could be more restrained in championing technical criteria. As I've mentioned before, my main concern is a non-technical one too: recognizability. Most people have heard of Firefox, and Chrome, but hardly anyone has heard of Chromium. - -- mpt -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with undefined - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlISCAYACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecqTUwCeMkSuY/F8DjsgdLf/ADQpYyYT MHgAoJzxECs+helf7eGfZIUi4q551n+J =YKtR -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Default Browser Follow-up
I think additionally Chromium used to have better multi-tab performance for a long time. Ie. Firefox users got used to action stopping when some heavy javascript was running in some other tab. But Firefox 22/23 have surprisingly well now improved on that front. I've been using Firefox all the time, since Firefox Sync is the killer feature for me as it's provenly client side encrypted. I'll continue using Firefox even if the switch happens, but I don't have anything against the default switch either. Both browsers are very good. -Timo 2013/8/14 Petko Ditchev pditc...@gmail.com: From what I've read: The majority of Ubuntu users like Firefox , but Chromium is better from a developer (Ubuntu-developer) standpoint because of WebKit , and is no less feature-rich or user-friendly. Firefox will remain until Chromium gets better support on the Ubuntu side , and until the people defending Firefox tire and come to terms with the decision. Am I missing something ? (everything's pretty reasonable , since FF isn't going away from the repos) Petko On 13.08.2013 20:19, Rick Spencer wrote: On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Benjamin Kerensa bkere...@ubuntu.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 11:23 AM, Jason Warner jason.war...@canonical.com wrote: Hi All - Here's the latest follow-up on the default browser for 13.10 discussion. Some great points were raised about the historic pattern of updates around Chromium. First, to get the formalities out the way, Firefox remains the default for 13.10. Second, I'd like to talk about the Chromium issues raised. It was rightly pointed out that there have been issues keeping up with Chromium changes. The big issue was with Web Apps integration and some changing APIs. Since we've introduced Web Apps changes like this have always caused us some grief. Web Apps have always been an interim step until we were able to get a more self contained web apps container. That work is planned for 13.10 and progressing well[1]. This should be done for 13.10 and very much refined for 14.04. Lastly, I do want to consider Chromium by default for 14.04 once the above is no longer an issue. I sincerely believe Chromium is the better experience for general users and should be strongly considered for our next LTS. You have not provided any criteria as to why Chromium would provide a better experience for general users. I think its important to note that so far there has been more opposition by developers and users to making Chromium the default. Have these reasons not been discussed ad naseum? I think most developers probably consider this a relatively minor decision that Jason and the desktop team are well position to make. I don't believe there will be any 100% consensus on this issue, and it's clear that Jason has been very active in soliciting and considering input and different points of view. At the end of the day, someone needs to make a decision, and in Ubuntu, we must entrust the people doing the work to make decisions. Without out any evidence of a greater experience I think it would be a poor decision to flip default on millions of users. Greater experience is subjective so I don't think there will be a lot of evidence that can't be counter pointed on either side. I get that some people are passionate about Firefox. Some people are passionate about Chromium. There were folks passionate about Banshee and folks passionate about Rhythmbox. There were folks passionate about Pdigin, and folks passionate about Empathy. The beauty of Ubuntu is that a decision can be made about a default around which we can rally for consistency and integration and low complexity for users, but the default in no way limits anyone's freedom or their ability to contribute to those projects that they care about. Deciding that Chromium is the better browser for the default in Ubuntu is not saying Firefox is a bad browser, or even that Firefox is not better for some people in some situations. If you could provide some solid technical justifications that motivate this discussion having been started it might be helpful in understand why such a change is proposed. If there is something lacking in Firefox then perhaps a dialogue can be started upstream and I would be happy to help guide such a discussion. I find that these kind of discussions are rarely effective and can easily cause hard feelings. The problem when choosing between 2 similar pieces of upstream software is that it is rarely the case that one of them stands still. So we've had situations where an upstream implements requirements so that they can be default, but the competing upstream meanwhile enhanced their product and so remained the better choice. The first upstream then felt burned because playing catch up did not work. So, when considering requirements, in my epxerience it's generally better not to go down this road and rather judge the products based on their
RE: Default Browser Follow-up
Sorry but I cannot understand why a default application is such a big matter. Users are still able to install any preferable browser (and uninstall any that don't like). It is not a good thing to put users in a VS situation. Both browsers have their advantages and disadvantages. Do not try to convenience anyone that one is better than other. That one is more user friendly than other. Just make your decision and announce it. If for you Chromium is preferable as default browser, then it is OK. If for me is not, then I can uninstall it and install Firefox with two clicks in USC. --- Regards NikTh -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Default Browser Follow-up
On 14/08/13 12:37, Nik Th wrote: Sorry but I cannot understand why a default application is such a big matter. Hi, The choice of default applications is important because a lot of people will decide whether they want to continue using a product based on their first impressions. You can't simply dismiss the importance of the choice based on the availability of alternative applications in the Software Center. If we made a poor choice of default applications, then this would reflect badly on Ubuntu overall. Regards - Chris -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
RE: Default Browser Follow-up
lots of people use firefox because it's default and just used to it lots of people wilfully choose to keep using it because it's lighter on RAM and cpu lots of people use chrome, because it's better maintained and advertised by google everywhere lots of people use chromium because it is available in software centre all those fractions have about the same number of users, i guess and the only good way to satisfy both ubuntu devs and end-users at the same time would be including both browsers into installation and giving an easy way to select the default one for installed system and for web apps atleast for 14.04, with further evaluation for future releases -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Default Browser Follow-up
At 7:37am -0400 Wed, 14 Aug 2013, Nik Th wrote: Sorry but I cannot understand why a default application is such a big matter. It is a big deal because defaults matter. Even though a product might be superior, if it has a weak default template and chosen options, it does not provide a good first-impression. From default workflow, to default look, to default plugins, the first interface presented to a user is huge. Those of us on this list are a self-selecting bunch that can possibly see past default choices to application potential, but the majority of end-users are not focused on computers. They are focused on what the computer enables them to do. Thus, the question, as I understand it, is What is the best default? Unfortunately, the word 'best' is subjective and requires a unified metric to answer. That unified metric does not exist. Put differently, let me point out that from a business standpoint (which is your standpoint if your goal is to further the install base of the desktop version of Ubuntu), the question is To whom do we cater? Is the answer to new clients/users? Is it to already converted users? Is it to folks who know how to use computers or folks who think the computer is that flat panel thing, while ignoring to what it might be attached? Is it to another group entirely? I sure don't know the answer to any of these questions. On the other hand, I can tell you that it's not catered to me. By the fact that I'm not paid by Canonical and am on this list, I've self-selected out of the clientèle who could provide a reasonably informed opinion. I have plenty of anecdotal evidence from shoulder-surfing actual end-users (like my clueless advisor, parents, and office mates), but so do we all. To really answer these questions, one would need to do some market analysis, know the internal company direction, _and_ perform some sort of usability testing. I suspect that the folks employed by Canonical have done so. Users are still able to install any preferable browser (and uninstall any that don't like). Unfortunately, 'able' is a subjective valuation. That is, yes, there is the possibility to install another browser, but possibility does not mean user capability, nor even necessarily inclination to figure out how. Assuming that folks have the capability to install another browser presupposes two points: that they have the requisite knowledge or skill to learn, and that they have already decided upon Ubuntu. Given the above discussion, I do not think Canonical is making these presuppositions. Kevin -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
RE: Default Browser Follow-up
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:44:58 +0100 From: chrisccoul...@ubuntu.com To: ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Default Browser Follow-up On 14/08/13 12:37, Nik Th wrote: Sorry but I cannot understand why a default application is such a big matter. If we made a poor choice of default applications, then this would reflect badly on Ubuntu overall. Regards - Chris Agree, but here is not a matter of poor selection. Neither of two browsers are poor. It seems to me more as a matter of Firm/Name, than better user experience. Imho, this issue has been discussed too much. Also another thing, not exactly relevant to this topic. If in the end you decide to include Chromium as the default browser (in future Ubuntu versions), please sync the pepperflashplugin-nonfree package from Debian. http://packages.qa.debian.org/p/pepperflashplugin-nonfree.html --- Regards NikTh -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Default Browser Follow-up
On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Rick Spencer rick.spen...@canonical.comwrote: On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Benjamin Kerensa bkere...@ubuntu.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 11:23 AM, Jason Warner jason.war...@canonical.com wrote: Hi All - Here's the latest follow-up on the default browser for 13.10 discussion. Some great points were raised about the historic pattern of updates around Chromium. First, to get the formalities out the way, Firefox remains the default for 13.10. Second, I'd like to talk about the Chromium issues raised. It was rightly pointed out that there have been issues keeping up with Chromium changes. The big issue was with Web Apps integration and some changing APIs. Since we've introduced Web Apps changes like this have always caused us some grief. Web Apps have always been an interim step until we were able to get a more self contained web apps container. That work is planned for 13.10 and progressing well[1]. This should be done for 13.10 and very much refined for 14.04. Lastly, I do want to consider Chromium by default for 14.04 once the above is no longer an issue. I sincerely believe Chromium is the better experience for general users and should be strongly considered for our next LTS. You have not provided any criteria as to why Chromium would provide a better experience for general users. I think its important to note that so far there has been more opposition by developers and users to making Chromium the default. Have these reasons not been discussed ad naseum? I think most developers probably consider this a relatively minor decision that Jason and the desktop team are well position to make. I don't believe there will be any 100% consensus on this issue, and it's clear that Jason has been very active in soliciting and considering input and different points of view. At the end of the day, someone needs to make a decision, and in Ubuntu, we must entrust the people doing the work to make decisions. I do not think the any technically valid reasons have been discussed actually. Most of the feedback has been in opposition of changing to Chromium not supporting the change. I do not believe this is a decision that Jason and the Desktop Team get to make which is why they opened it up to feedback from all developers and the support was just not there had it been then the change would have been made. I think you are absolutely right that there is not going to be a 100% consensus for this change because in reality the support is not there and no solid technical justification has been provided. Firefox can do all of the things that Jason outlined that Chromium does the fact of the matter is that Jason and the new maintainer are Chromium users and would like everyone else to use their favorite browser versus sticking with Firefox which has been a reliable choice for Ubuntu. Without out any evidence of a greater experience I think it would be a poor decision to flip default on millions of users. Greater experience is subjective so I don't think there will be a lot of evidence that can't be counter pointed on either side. So you agree that it would be difficult for Jason to prove that Chromium offers Ubuntu Users a better experience than Firefox. Glad that is settled. I get that some people are passionate about Firefox. Some people are passionate about Chromium. There were folks passionate about Banshee and folks passionate about Rhythmbox. There were folks passionate about Pdigin, and folks passionate about Empathy. The beauty of Ubuntu is that a decision can be made about a default around which we can rally for consistency and integration and low complexity for users, but the default in no way limits anyone's freedom or their ability to contribute to those projects that they care about. Deciding that Chromium is the better browser for the default in Ubuntu is not saying Firefox is a bad browser, or even that Firefox is not better for some people in some situations. The majority of the support is behind Firefox. Why would a minority of people get to decide we should switch to Chromium? It makes absolutely no sense to change a default to make a minority happy. If you could provide some solid technical justifications that motivate this discussion having been started it might be helpful in understand why such a change is proposed. If there is something lacking in Firefox then perhaps a dialogue can be started upstream and I would be happy to help guide such a discussion. I find that these kind of discussions are rarely effective and can easily cause hard feelings. The problem when choosing between 2 similar pieces of upstream software is that it is rarely the case that one of them stands still. So we've had situations where an upstream implements requirements so that they can be default, but the competing upstream meanwhile enhanced their product and so
Re: Default Browser Follow-up
On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Benjamin Kerensa bkere...@ubuntu.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 11:23 AM, Jason Warner jason.war...@canonical.com wrote: Hi All - Here's the latest follow-up on the default browser for 13.10 discussion. Some great points were raised about the historic pattern of updates around Chromium. First, to get the formalities out the way, Firefox remains the default for 13.10. Second, I'd like to talk about the Chromium issues raised. It was rightly pointed out that there have been issues keeping up with Chromium changes. The big issue was with Web Apps integration and some changing APIs. Since we've introduced Web Apps changes like this have always caused us some grief. Web Apps have always been an interim step until we were able to get a more self contained web apps container. That work is planned for 13.10 and progressing well[1]. This should be done for 13.10 and very much refined for 14.04. Lastly, I do want to consider Chromium by default for 14.04 once the above is no longer an issue. I sincerely believe Chromium is the better experience for general users and should be strongly considered for our next LTS. You have not provided any criteria as to why Chromium would provide a better experience for general users. I think its important to note that so far there has been more opposition by developers and users to making Chromium the default. Have these reasons not been discussed ad naseum? I think most developers probably consider this a relatively minor decision that Jason and the desktop team are well position to make. I don't believe there will be any 100% consensus on this issue, and it's clear that Jason has been very active in soliciting and considering input and different points of view. At the end of the day, someone needs to make a decision, and in Ubuntu, we must entrust the people doing the work to make decisions. Without out any evidence of a greater experience I think it would be a poor decision to flip default on millions of users. Greater experience is subjective so I don't think there will be a lot of evidence that can't be counter pointed on either side. I get that some people are passionate about Firefox. Some people are passionate about Chromium. There were folks passionate about Banshee and folks passionate about Rhythmbox. There were folks passionate about Pdigin, and folks passionate about Empathy. The beauty of Ubuntu is that a decision can be made about a default around which we can rally for consistency and integration and low complexity for users, but the default in no way limits anyone's freedom or their ability to contribute to those projects that they care about. Deciding that Chromium is the better browser for the default in Ubuntu is not saying Firefox is a bad browser, or even that Firefox is not better for some people in some situations. If you could provide some solid technical justifications that motivate this discussion having been started it might be helpful in understand why such a change is proposed. If there is something lacking in Firefox then perhaps a dialogue can be started upstream and I would be happy to help guide such a discussion. I find that these kind of discussions are rarely effective and can easily cause hard feelings. The problem when choosing between 2 similar pieces of upstream software is that it is rarely the case that one of them stands still. So we've had situations where an upstream implements requirements so that they can be default, but the competing upstream meanwhile enhanced their product and so remained the better choice. The first upstream then felt burned because playing catch up did not work. So, when considering requirements, in my epxerience it's generally better not to go down this road and rather judge the products based on their current implementations, their support models, and their road maps. In terms of why is the discussion started we must acknowledge that Chromium is a very popular browser, works very well, but did not exist all those years ago when Firefox was included as default in Ubuntu. The desktop team wouldn't be doing their job if they weren't asking these questions. Cheers, Rick -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Default Browser Follow-up
On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 07:11:30PM +0200, ab...@email.it wrote: I don't understand. Why Firefox should use Ubuntu One and instead Chromium can use its own sync service? You made me remember another point in favor of Firefox: its sync service is much more privacy-friendly. Firefox Sync encrypts data not only on Mozilla's servers, but also on the client side. So you and only you can access your private data. Anyway, there used to be Firefox bookmarks synchronization in Ubuntu One (see for example http://www.webupd8.org/2010/04/ubuntuone-adds-firefox-bookmarks.html). I guess it wouldn't be difficult to reintegrate it. And, ironically, the Ubuntu community has more control on Firefox Sync, where Mozilla's servers are opensource and you can run your own server (http://docs.services.mozilla.com/howtos/run-sync.html), than on Ubuntu One, as Canonical's servers are closed source (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntuone-servers/+bug/375272). Putting aside points regarding evil company controlling your data (implied or otherwise) and just focusing on user experience alone, consider these two scenarios: Scenario A (unified sync service) 1. User sets up Ubuntu system 2. User sets up $sync_service, where $sync_service could be U1, Dropbox, owncloud, sparkleshare, or whatever else you want. 3. All apps automatically get synced across. Scenario B (every app has its own sync service): 1. User sets up Ubuntu system 2. User sets up $sync_service for syncing files 3. User chooses a $browser. User has to set up syncing for the said browser. 4. User also needs to set up syncing for Tomboy, or Gnote, or whatever note-taking app they use. 5. Ditto for email, if they use a desktop email solution. 6. And what about contacts Speaking as an Ubuntu user, I think scenario A seems a lot simpler, and we should probably strive to achieve that. U1's server-side component not being open enough is something that would really be nice to have fixed, though. -- Kind regards, Loong Jin signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
RE: Default Browser Follow-up
Hi Abral You make some very good points about Firefox. But from a users perspective, I find Google Chrome extremely useful because of the way I can easily sync my bookmarks etc.. between my work computer and home computer and mobile device. I think this speaks to device convergence as Mark has so often mentioned, as a primary goal for Ubuntu. I do not normally intercede on this list but I feel the goal of device ubiquity and how an internet browser deals with it is very important. Perhaps if Firefox could be configured to automatically sync using the cloud Ubuntu One service then it would be on useful parity with Google Chrome. Regards Hilton Gibson Systems Administrator JS Gericke Library Room 1025D Stellenbosch University Private Bag X5036 Stellenbosch 7599 South Africa Tel: +27 21 808 4100 | Cell: +27 84 646 4758 http://www.sun.ac.za/library From: ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] on behalf of Abral [ab...@email.it] Sent: 28 June 2013 03:00 AM To: ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Default Browser Follow-up Even if I think openness and freedom should be the main reason why Ubuntu should have Firefox by default, I won't talk about this here. This is a non comprehensive list of non-philosophical reasons: 1) Firefox is a lot more familiar than Chromium for Linux users. It's always been the default and it's the default in almost all the distributions. Most of the people that don't prefer Firefox are using Chrome, and not Chromium. 2) Firefox has a built-in PDF reader. 3) Firefox is better integrated with GNOME. 4) Firefox is going to support GStreamer soon (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=794282). 5) Firefox is going to support GTK3 soon (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=627699). 6) Firefox has made a great effort to hunt down responsiveness issues, seen in pauses and jank. They have made significant improvements seen both in current releases as well as current nightlies, with more on the way. 7) When it comes to JavaScript performance, there is no clear winner. In some tests, Firefox is faster. In other tests, Chromium is faster. 8) Mozilla is working on a project called OpenWebApps, that looks similar to Unity webapps. You could reuse Firefox code to make Unity webapps run in chromeless windows. 9) Firefox supports more architectures. 10) Firefox is more customizable than Chromium. 11) Firefox memory usage is a lot better than Chromium's and has improved even more in the latest releases (that would be shipped with Saucy), for example see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678037. 12) Mozilla is working on some cross-platform technologies that could benefit Linux users. For example, Shumway (that is a replacement for Flash), pdf.js (a pdf reader written in JavaScript), asm.js (that could enable interesting applications and games to run on every platform, so also on Linux). 13) There's good support for Firefox in Ubuntu. There are some (or, at least, one) Canonical developers that are experienced with the Firefox code base and are working on it (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=619899). 14) About web developers, I think it's a matter of taste. Firefox has good web developer tools, and Chromium has good web developer tools too. Firefox has also the addon Firebug, that is one of the most used by web developers. 15) Firefox has smooth scrolling, some people are used to it and wouldn't like the worse Chromium's scrolling experience. 16) There are other Linux distributions developers that are working on Firefox. Canonical would benefit from it for free. I can't see any reason why you should switch to Chromium. The responsiveness issues that Chow Loong Jin was talking about have been mitigated a lot in the latest releases and will continue to improve (there are some projects to improve this, like there was a project to improve memory usage). The GLES issue that Oliver Grawert was talking about will be likely fixed soon enough, see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=788319. They're considering switching to EGL instead of GLX. -- Caselle da 1GB, trasmetti allegati fino a 3GB e in piu' IMAP, POP3 e SMTP autenticato? GRATIS solo con Email.it http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: SIMPSON: Acquista Peluche, Gadget e Abbigliamento Originale su mistercupido.com Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=12901d=28-6 -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop E-pos vrywaringsklousule Hierdie e-pos mag vertroulike inligting bevat en mag regtens geprivilegeerd wees en is slegs bedoel vir die persoon aan wie dit geadresseer is. Indien u nie die bedoelde ontvanger is nie, word u hiermee in kennis gestel dat u hierdie dokument geensins mag gebruik, versprei of kopieer nie. Stel ook asseblief die sender onmiddellik per
RE: Default Browser Follow-up
firefox has it's own sync service for a long time and it works the same way chrome's does, there is no need to force mozilla into ubuntu one because any user can setup ubuntu one synchronization of ~.mozilla folder From: hgib...@sun.ac.za To: ab...@email.it; ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: RE: Default Browser Follow-up Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 07:25:37 + Hi Abral You make some very good points about Firefox. But from a users perspective, I find Google Chrome extremely useful because of the way I can easily sync my bookmarks etc.. between my work computer and home computer and mobile device. I think this speaks to device convergence as Mark has so often mentioned, as a primary goal for Ubuntu. I do not normally intercede on this list but I feel the goal of device ubiquity and how an internet browser deals with it is very important. Perhaps if Firefox could be configured to automatically sync using the cloud Ubuntu One service then it would be on useful parity with Google Chrome. Regards Hilton Gibson Systems Administrator JS Gericke Library Room 1025D Stellenbosch University Private Bag X5036 Stellenbosch 7599 South Africa Tel: +27 21 808 4100 | Cell: +27 84 646 4758 http://www.sun.ac.za/library From: ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] on behalf of Abral [ab...@email.it] Sent: 28 June 2013 03:00 AM To: ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Default Browser Follow-up Even if I think openness and freedom should be the main reason why Ubuntu should have Firefox by default, I won't talk about this here. This is a non comprehensive list of non-philosophical reasons: 1) Firefox is a lot more familiar than Chromium for Linux users. It's always been the default and it's the default in almost all the distributions. Most of the people that don't prefer Firefox are using Chrome, and not Chromium. 2) Firefox has a built-in PDF reader. 3) Firefox is better integrated with GNOME. 4) Firefox is going to support GStreamer soon (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=794282). 5) Firefox is going to support GTK3 soon (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=627699). 6) Firefox has made a great effort to hunt down responsiveness issues, seen in pauses and jank. They have made significant improvements seen both in current releases as well as current nightlies, with more on the way. 7) When it comes to JavaScript performance, there is no clear winner. In some tests, Firefox is faster. In other tests, Chromium is faster. 8) Mozilla is working on a project called OpenWebApps, that looks similar to Unity webapps. You could reuse Firefox code to make Unity webapps run in chromeless windows. 9) Firefox supports more architectures. 10) Firefox is more customizable than Chromium. 11) Firefox memory usage is a lot better than Chromium's and has improved even more in the latest releases (that would be shipped with Saucy), for example see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678037. 12) Mozilla is working on some cross-platform technologies that could benefit Linux users. For example, Shumway (that is a replacement for Flash), pdf.js (a pdf reader written in JavaScript), asm.js (that could enable interesting applications and games to run on every platform, so also on Linux). 13) There's good support for Firefox in Ubuntu. There are some (or, at least, one) Canonical developers that are experienced with the Firefox code base and are working on it (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=619899). 14) About web developers, I think it's a matter of taste. Firefox has good web developer tools, and Chromium has good web developer tools too. Firefox has also the addon Firebug, that is one of the most used by web developers. 15) Firefox has smooth scrolling, some people are used to it and wouldn't like the worse Chromium's scrolling experience. 16) There are other Linux distributions developers that are working on Firefox. Canonical would benefit from it for free. I can't see any reason why you should switch to Chromium. The responsiveness issues that Chow Loong Jin was talking about have been mitigated a lot in the latest releases and will continue to improve (there are some projects to improve this, like there was a project to improve memory usage). The GLES issue that Oliver Grawert was talking about will be likely fixed soon enough, see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=788319. They're considering switching to EGL instead of GLX. -- Caselle da 1GB, trasmetti allegati fino a 3GB e in piu' IMAP, POP3 e SMTP autenticato? GRATIS solo con Email.it http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: SIMPSON: Acquista Peluche, Gadget e Abbigliamento Originale su mistercupido.com Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=12901d=28-6 -- ubuntu-desktop
RE: Default Browser Follow-up
xo : I agree, but the present Firefox sync is not Ubuntu user friendly as is Google Chrome. For example: During first start of Firefox is the ubuntu user asked if they would like to sync with Ubuntu One? I am not sure if promoting the Firefox sync service when using Ubuntu is a good thing. The Ubuntu community has no control over the Firefox sync service. Hilton Gibson Systems Administrator JS Gericke Library Room 1025D Stellenbosch University Private Bag X5036 Stellenbosch 7599 South Africa Tel: +27 21 808 4100 | Cell: +27 84 646 4758 http://www.sun.ac.za/library From: ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] on behalf of x o [u...@outlook.com] Sent: 28 June 2013 11:01 AM To: ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: RE: Default Browser Follow-up firefox has it's own sync service for a long time and it works the same way chrome's does, there is no need to force mozilla into ubuntu one because any user can setup ubuntu one synchronization of ~.mozilla folder From: hgib...@sun.ac.za To: ab...@email.it; ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: RE: Default Browser Follow-up Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 07:25:37 + Hi Abral You make some very good points about Firefox. But from a users perspective, I find Google Chrome extremely useful because of the way I can easily sync my bookmarks etc.. between my work computer and home computer and mobile device. I think this speaks to device convergence as Mark has so often mentioned, as a primary goal for Ubuntu. I do not normally intercede on this list but I feel the goal of device ubiquity and how an internet browser deals with it is very important. Perhaps if Firefox could be configured to automatically sync using the cloud Ubuntu One service then it would be on useful parity with Google Chrome. Regards Hilton Gibson Systems Administrator JS Gericke Library Room 1025D Stellenbosch University Private Bag X5036 Stellenbosch 7599 South Africa Tel: +27 21 808 4100 | Cell: +27 84 646 4758 http://www.sun.ac.za/library From: ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] on behalf of Abral [ab...@email.it] Sent: 28 June 2013 03:00 AM To: ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Default Browser Follow-up Even if I think openness and freedom should be the main reason why Ubuntu should have Firefox by default, I won't talk about this here. This is a non comprehensive list of non-philosophical reasons: 1) Firefox is a lot more familiar than Chromium for Linux users. It's always been the default and it's the default in almost all the distributions. Most of the people that don't prefer Firefox are using Chrome, and not Chromium. 2) Firefox has a built-in PDF reader. 3) Firefox is better integrated with GNOME. 4) Firefox is going to support GStreamer soon (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=794282). 5) Firefox is going to support GTK3 soon (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=627699). 6) Firefox has made a great effort to hunt down responsiveness issues, seen in pauses and jank. They have made significant improvements seen both in current releases as well as current nightlies, with more on the way. 7) When it comes to JavaScript performance, there is no clear winner. In some tests, Firefox is faster. In other tests, Chromium is faster. 8) Mozilla is working on a project called OpenWebApps, that looks similar to Unity webapps. You could reuse Firefox code to make Unity webapps run in chromeless windows. 9) Firefox supports more architectures. 10) Firefox is more customizable than Chromium. 11) Firefox memory usage is a lot better than Chromium's and has improved even more in the latest releases (that would be shipped with Saucy), for example see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678037. 12) Mozilla is working on some cross-platform technologies that could benefit Linux users. For example, Shumway (that is a replacement for Flash), pdf.js (a pdf reader written in JavaScript), asm.js (that could enable interesting applications and games to run on every platform, so also on Linux). 13) There's good support for Firefox in Ubuntu. There are some (or, at least, one) Canonical developers that are experienced with the Firefox code base and are working on it (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=619899). 14) About web developers, I think it's a matter of taste. Firefox has good web developer tools, and Chromium has good web developer tools too. Firefox has also the addon Firebug, that is one of the most used by web developers. 15) Firefox has smooth scrolling, some people are used to it and wouldn't like the worse Chromium's scrolling experience. 16) There are other Linux distributions developers that are working on Firefox. Canonical would benefit from it for free. I can't see any
RE: Default Browser Follow-up
security code step can't be called unfriendly and its pretty easy to sync a text file with it in ubuntu one, atleast i do it that way:) does Ubuntu community need to have control over any of the browsers' sync services? i think ubuntu sync for browsers can be easily added in ubuntu one itself with preconfiguered most common directories like ~.mozilla From: hgib...@sun.ac.za To: u...@outlook.com; ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: RE: Default Browser Follow-up Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 09:09:37 + xo : I agree, but the present Firefox sync is not Ubuntu user friendly as is Google Chrome. For example: During first start of Firefox is the ubuntu user asked if they would like to sync with Ubuntu One? I am not sure if promoting the Firefox sync service when using Ubuntu is a good thing. The Ubuntu community has no control over the Firefox sync service. Hilton Gibson Systems Administrator JS Gericke Library Room 1025D Stellenbosch University Private Bag X5036 Stellenbosch 7599 South Africa Tel: +27 21 808 4100 | Cell: +27 84 646 4758 http://www.sun.ac.za/library From: ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] on behalf of x o [u...@outlook.com] Sent: 28 June 2013 11:01 AM To: ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: RE: Default Browser Follow-up firefox has it's own sync service for a long time and it works the same way chrome's does, there is no need to force mozilla into ubuntu one because any user can setup ubuntu one synchronization of ~.mozilla folder From: hgib...@sun.ac.za To: ab...@email.it; ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: RE: Default Browser Follow-up Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 07:25:37 + Hi Abral You make some very good points about Firefox. But from a users perspective, I find Google Chrome extremely useful because of the way I can easily sync my bookmarks etc.. between my work computer and home computer and mobile device. I think this speaks to device convergence as Mark has so often mentioned, as a primary goal for Ubuntu. I do not normally intercede on this list but I feel the goal of device ubiquity and how an internet browser deals with it is very important. Perhaps if Firefox could be configured to automatically sync using the cloud Ubuntu One service then it would be on useful parity with Google Chrome. Regards Hilton Gibson Systems Administrator JS Gericke Library Room 1025D Stellenbosch University Private Bag X5036 Stellenbosch 7599 South Africa Tel: +27 21 808 4100 | Cell: +27 84 646 4758 http://www.sun.ac.za/library From: ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] on behalf of Abral [ab...@email.it] Sent: 28 June 2013 03:00 AM To: ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Default Browser Follow-up Even if I think openness and freedom should be the main reason why Ubuntu should have Firefox by default, I won't talk about this here. This is a non comprehensive list of non-philosophical reasons: 1) Firefox is a lot more familiar than Chromium for Linux users. It's always been the default and it's the default in almost all the distributions. Most of the people that don't prefer Firefox are using Chrome, and not Chromium. 2) Firefox has a built-in PDF reader. 3) Firefox is better integrated with GNOME. 4) Firefox is going to support GStreamer soon (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=794282). 5) Firefox is going to support GTK3 soon (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=627699). 6) Firefox has made a great effort to hunt down responsiveness issues, seen in pauses and jank. They have made significant improvements seen both in current releases as well as current nightlies, with more on the way. 7) When it comes to JavaScript performance, there is no clear winner. In some tests, Firefox is faster. In other tests, Chromium is faster. 8) Mozilla is working on a project called OpenWebApps, that looks similar to Unity webapps. You could reuse Firefox code to make Unity webapps run in chromeless windows. 9) Firefox supports more architectures. 10) Firefox is more customizable than Chromium. 11) Firefox memory usage is a lot better than Chromium's and has improved even more in the latest releases (that would be shipped with Saucy), for example see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678037. 12) Mozilla is working on some cross-platform technologies that could benefit Linux users. For example, Shumway (that is a replacement for Flash), pdf.js (a pdf reader written in JavaScript), asm.js (that could enable interesting applications and games to run on every platform, so also on Linux). 13) There's good support for Firefox in Ubuntu. There are some (or, at least, one
RE: Default Browser Follow-up
does Ubuntu community need to have control over any of the browsers' sync services?' No - but how do we assure service quality if the external sync service goes down? Hilton Gibson Systems Administrator JS Gericke Library Room 1025D Stellenbosch University Private Bag X5036 Stellenbosch 7599 South Africa Tel: +27 21 808 4100 | Cell: +27 84 646 4758 http://www.sun.ac.za/library From: ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] on behalf of x o [u...@outlook.com] Sent: 28 June 2013 11:20 AM To: ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: RE: Default Browser Follow-up security code step can't be called unfriendly and its pretty easy to sync a text file with it in ubuntu one, atleast i do it that way:) does Ubuntu community need to have control over any of the browsers' sync services? i think ubuntu sync for browsers can be easily added in ubuntu one itself with preconfiguered most common directories like ~.mozilla From: hgib...@sun.ac.za To: u...@outlook.com; ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: RE: Default Browser Follow-up Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 09:09:37 + xo : I agree, but the present Firefox sync is not Ubuntu user friendly as is Google Chrome. For example: During first start of Firefox is the ubuntu user asked if they would like to sync with Ubuntu One? I am not sure if promoting the Firefox sync service when using Ubuntu is a good thing. The Ubuntu community has no control over the Firefox sync service. Hilton Gibson Systems Administrator JS Gericke Library Room 1025D Stellenbosch University Private Bag X5036 Stellenbosch 7599 South Africa Tel: +27 21 808 4100 | Cell: +27 84 646 4758 http://www.sun.ac.za/library From: ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] on behalf of x o [u...@outlook.com] Sent: 28 June 2013 11:01 AM To: ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: RE: Default Browser Follow-up firefox has it's own sync service for a long time and it works the same way chrome's does, there is no need to force mozilla into ubuntu one because any user can setup ubuntu one synchronization of ~.mozilla folder From: hgib...@sun.ac.za To: ab...@email.it; ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: RE: Default Browser Follow-up Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 07:25:37 + Hi Abral You make some very good points about Firefox. But from a users perspective, I find Google Chrome extremely useful because of the way I can easily sync my bookmarks etc.. between my work computer and home computer and mobile device. I think this speaks to device convergence as Mark has so often mentioned, as a primary goal for Ubuntu. I do not normally intercede on this list but I feel the goal of device ubiquity and how an internet browser deals with it is very important. Perhaps if Firefox could be configured to automatically sync using the cloud Ubuntu One service then it would be on useful parity with Google Chrome. Regards Hilton Gibson Systems Administrator JS Gericke Library Room 1025D Stellenbosch University Private Bag X5036 Stellenbosch 7599 South Africa Tel: +27 21 808 4100 | Cell: +27 84 646 4758 http://www.sun.ac.za/library From: ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] on behalf of Abral [ab...@email.it] Sent: 28 June 2013 03:00 AM To: ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Default Browser Follow-up Even if I think openness and freedom should be the main reason why Ubuntu should have Firefox by default, I won't talk about this here. This is a non comprehensive list of non-philosophical reasons: 1) Firefox is a lot more familiar than Chromium for Linux users. It's always been the default and it's the default in almost all the distributions. Most of the people that don't prefer Firefox are using Chrome, and not Chromium. 2) Firefox has a built-in PDF reader. 3) Firefox is better integrated with GNOME. 4) Firefox is going to support GStreamer soon (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=794282). 5) Firefox is going to support GTK3 soon (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=627699). 6) Firefox has made a great effort to hunt down responsiveness issues, seen in pauses and jank. They have made significant improvements seen both in current releases as well as current nightlies, with more on the way. 7) When it comes to JavaScript performance, there is no clear winner. In some tests, Firefox is faster. In other tests, Chromium is faster. 8) Mozilla is working on a project called OpenWebApps, that looks similar to Unity webapps. You could reuse Firefox code to make Unity webapps run in chromeless windows. 9) Firefox supports more architectures. 10) Firefox is more
RE: Default Browser Follow-up
than using ubuntu one to sync ~.mozilla or other browser profile/settings folders(i don't remember all folders for all browsers:)) is the way to go if you want to have a back up solution. this way was available from an introduction of ubuntu one and does not require any attension from mozilla, or chromium, or any other browser devs out there. someone should fill a suggestion to ubuntu one team to add browser sync options From: hgib...@sun.ac.za To: u...@outlook.com; ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: RE: Default Browser Follow-up Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 10:05:36 + does Ubuntu community need to have control over any of the browsers' sync services?' No - but how do we assure service quality if the external sync service goes down? Hilton Gibson Systems Administrator JS Gericke Library Room 1025D Stellenbosch University Private Bag X5036 Stellenbosch 7599 South Africa Tel: +27 21 808 4100 | Cell: +27 84 646 4758 http://www.sun.ac.za/library From: ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] on behalf of x o [u...@outlook.com] Sent: 28 June 2013 11:20 AM To: ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: RE: Default Browser Follow-up security code step can't be called unfriendly and its pretty easy to sync a text file with it in ubuntu one, atleast i do it that way:) does Ubuntu community need to have control over any of the browsers' sync services? i think ubuntu sync for browsers can be easily added in ubuntu one itself with preconfiguered most common directories like ~.mozilla From: hgib...@sun.ac.za To: u...@outlook.com; ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: RE: Default Browser Follow-up Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 09:09:37 + xo : I agree, but the present Firefox sync is not Ubuntu user friendly as is Google Chrome. For example: During first start of Firefox is the ubuntu user asked if they would like to sync with Ubuntu One? I am not sure if promoting the Firefox sync service when using Ubuntu is a good thing. The Ubuntu community has no control over the Firefox sync service. Hilton Gibson Systems Administrator JS Gericke Library Room 1025D Stellenbosch University Private Bag X5036 Stellenbosch 7599 South Africa Tel: +27 21 808 4100 | Cell: +27 84 646 4758 http://www.sun.ac.za/library From: ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] on behalf of x o [u...@outlook.com] Sent: 28 June 2013 11:01 AM To: ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: RE: Default Browser Follow-up firefox has it's own sync service for a long time and it works the same way chrome's does, there is no need to force mozilla into ubuntu one because any user can setup ubuntu one synchronization of ~.mozilla folder From: hgib...@sun.ac.za To: ab...@email.it; ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: RE: Default Browser Follow-up Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 07:25:37 + Hi Abral You make some very good points about Firefox. But from a users perspective, I find Google Chrome extremely useful because of the way I can easily sync my bookmarks etc.. between my work computer and home computer and mobile device. I think this speaks to device convergence as Mark has so often mentioned, as a primary goal for Ubuntu. I do not normally intercede on this list but I feel the goal of device ubiquity and how an internet browser deals with it is very important. Perhaps if Firefox could be configured to automatically sync using the cloud Ubuntu One service then it would be on useful parity with Google Chrome. Regards Hilton Gibson Systems Administrator JS Gericke Library Room 1025D Stellenbosch University Private Bag X5036 Stellenbosch 7599 South Africa Tel: +27 21 808 4100 | Cell: +27 84 646 4758 http://www.sun.ac.za/library From: ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] on behalf of Abral [ab...@email.it] Sent: 28 June 2013 03:00 AM To: ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Default Browser Follow-up Even if I think openness and freedom should be the main reason why Ubuntu should have Firefox by default, I won't talk about this here. This is a non comprehensive list of non-philosophical reasons: 1) Firefox is a lot more familiar than Chromium for Linux users. It's always been the default and it's the default in almost all the distributions. Most of the people that don't prefer Firefox are using Chrome, and not Chromium. 2) Firefox has a built-in PDF reader. 3) Firefox is better integrated with GNOME. 4) Firefox is going to support GStreamer soon (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=794282
RE: Default Browser Follow-up
I don't understand. Why Firefox should use Ubuntu One and instead Chromium can use its own sync service? You made me remember another point in favor of Firefox: its sync service is much more privacy-friendly. Firefox Sync encrypts data not only on Mozilla's servers, but also on the client side. So you and only you can access your private data. Anyway, there used to be Firefox bookmarks synchronization in Ubuntu One (see for example http://www.webupd8.org/2010/04/ubuntuone-adds-firefox-bookmarks.html). I guess it wouldn't be difficult to reintegrate it. And, ironically, the Ubuntu community has more control on Firefox Sync, where Mozilla's servers are opensource and you can run your own server (http://docs.services.mozilla.com/howtos/run-sync.html), than on Ubuntu One, as Canonical's servers are closed source (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntuone-servers/+bug/375272). nbsp; - Original Message Da: Gibson H lt;hgib...@sun.ac.zagt; lt;hgib...@sun.ac.zagt; To: ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com lt;ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.comgt; Oggetto: RE: Default Browser Follow-up Data: 28/06/13 09:26 Hi Abral You make some very good points about Firefox. But from a users perspective, I find Google Chrome extremely useful because of the way I can easily sync my bookmarks etc.. between my work computer and home computer and mobile device. I think this speaks to device convergence as Mark has so often mentioned, as a primary goal for Ubuntu. I do not normally intercede on this list but I feel the goal of device ubiquity and how an internet browser deals with it is very important. Perhaps if Firefox could be configured to automatically sync using the cloud Ubuntu One service then it would be on useful parity with Google Chrome. Regards Hilton Gibson Systems Administrator JS Gericke Library Room 1025D Stellenbosch University Private Bag X5036 Stellenbosch 7599 South Africa Tel: +27 21 808 4100 | Cell: +27 84 646 4758 http://www.sun.ac.za/library From: ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [ubuntu-desktop-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] on behalf of Abral [ab...@email.it] Sent: 28 June 2013 03:00 AM To: ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Default Browser Follow-up Even if I think openness and freedom should be the main reason why Ubuntu should have Firefox by default, I won't talk about this here. This is a non comprehensive list of non-philosophical reasons: 1) Firefox is a lot more familiar than Chromium for Linux users. It's always been the default and it's the default in almost all the distributions. Most of the people that don't prefer Firefox are using Chrome, and not Chromium. 2) Firefox has a built-in PDF reader. 3) Firefox is better integrated with GNOME. 4) Firefox is going to support GStreamer soon (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=794282). 5) Firefox is going to support GTK3 soon (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=627699). 6) Firefox has made a great effort to hunt down responsiveness issues, seen in pauses and jank. They have made significant improvements seen both in current releases as well as current nightlies, with more on the way. 7) When it comes to JavaScript performance, there is no clear winner. In some tests, Firefox is faster. In other tests, Chromium is faster. 8) Mozilla is working on a project called OpenWebApps, that looks similar to Unity webapps. You could reuse Firefox code to make Unity webapps run in chromeless windows. 9) Firefox supports more architectures. 10) Firefox is more customizable than Chromium. 11) Firefox memory usage is a lot better than Chromium's and has improved even more in the latest releases (that would be shipped with Saucy), for example see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678037. 12) Mozilla is working on some cross-platform technologies that could benefit Linux users. For example, Shumway (that is a replacement for Flash), pdf.js (a pdf reader written in JavaScript), asm.js (that could enable interesting applications and games to run on every platform, so also on Linux). 13) There's good support for Firefox in Ubuntu. There are some (or, at least, one) Canonical developers that are experienced with the Firefox code base and are working on it (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=619899). 14) About web developers, I think it's a matter of taste. Firefox has good web developer tools, and Chromium has good web developer tools too. Firefox has also the addon Firebug, that is one of the most used by web developers. 15) Firefox has smooth scrolling, some people are used to it and wouldn't like the worse Chromium's scrolling experience. 16) There are other Linux distributions developers that are working on Firefox. Canonical would benefit from
RE: Default Browser Follow-up
The best at my opinion would be to let the user select the browser he/she needs. From a list of 4-5 popular browsers (eg: Firefox - Chromium - Chrome - Safari - Opera .. etc) the user be able to choose which browser he/she wants to install. -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Default Browser Follow-up
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Jeremy Bicha jbi...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 14 June 2013 15:06, Jason Warner jason.war...@canonical.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 9:27 AM, Benjamin Kerensa bkere...@ubuntu.com wrote: On Quality: Chromium just as of last year was totally unmaintained Ubuntu (http://askubuntu.com/questions/166931/why-is-chromium-not-updated-automatically-as-firefox-is) this does not seem like quality or stability in my opinion. Indeed, there was a time between the community maintainer of Chromium leaving and us finding another maintainer that it went relatively unmaintained (we still did a best effort to keep it updated, though it wasn't any one person's focus). Now we have Chad Miller maintaining Chromium fulltime. I'm not sure that Benjamin's point was answered here. The current version of Chrome/Chromium on Linux is 28 released 6 days ago, 27 was released a full month ago, 26 was released nearly 3 months ago, but the version available for Ubuntu is still at version 25. It's widely known that new Chrome/Chromium release are also security updates. Also, what's currently blocking re-establishing Chromium daily or beta PPAs which should help identify issues sooner (such as the webapps feature not working with Chromium 26)? I know we're all thinking about the next Ubuntu LTS but it seems clear to me that Chromium still does not have a track record yet of being maintained well enough to replace Firefox as the default desktop browser yet (except perhaps on arm). Thanks, Jeremy Yeah right now I see 25.0.1364.160 shipping in raring and we don't even have a saucy branch open yet which is not great. Looking at Chromium's Security Blog I can see copious amounts of security fixes that have landed in Chromium upstream that have not made it down to Ubuntu. While Firefox right now is in a rather better position in terms of being a secure/stable browser. -- Benjamin Kerensa http://benjaminkerensa.com I am what I am because of who we all are - Ubuntu -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Default Browser Follow-up
Debian already have 27.x: packages.debian.org/chromium -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Default Browser Follow-up
hi, On Do, 2013-06-13 at 07:40 -0400, Brandon Watkins wrote: smooth). In comparison, out of the box firefox has butter smooth scrolling that works 100% of the time. on arm desktops it is closer to a slideshow though since it makes zero use of any EGL based acceleration ... ciao oli signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Default Browser Follow-up
On 14 June 2013 15:06, Jason Warner jason.war...@canonical.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 9:27 AM, Benjamin Kerensa bkere...@ubuntu.com wrote: On Quality: Chromium just as of last year was totally unmaintained Ubuntu (http://askubuntu.com/questions/166931/why-is-chromium-not-updated-automatically-as-firefox-is) this does not seem like quality or stability in my opinion. Indeed, there was a time between the community maintainer of Chromium leaving and us finding another maintainer that it went relatively unmaintained (we still did a best effort to keep it updated, though it wasn't any one person's focus). Now we have Chad Miller maintaining Chromium fulltime. I'm not sure that Benjamin's point was answered here. The current version of Chrome/Chromium on Linux is 28 released 6 days ago, 27 was released a full month ago, 26 was released nearly 3 months ago, but the version available for Ubuntu is still at version 25. It's widely known that new Chrome/Chromium release are also security updates. Also, what's currently blocking re-establishing Chromium daily or beta PPAs which should help identify issues sooner (such as the webapps feature not working with Chromium 26)? I know we're all thinking about the next Ubuntu LTS but it seems clear to me that Chromium still does not have a track record yet of being maintained well enough to replace Firefox as the default desktop browser yet (except perhaps on arm). Thanks, Jeremy -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Default Browser Follow-up
On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 9:27 AM, Benjamin Kerensa bkere...@ubuntu.comwrote: What is important, and ultimately should be the deciding factor, is the common end user experience. Which browser, in the common case, will be the best for the general end user? Things I consider relevant to this discussion are quality/stability/robustness, familiarity, ease of use, and overall user experience. On Quality: Chromium just as of last year was totally unmaintained Ubuntu ( http://askubuntu.com/questions/166931/why-is-chromium-not-updated-automatically-as-firefox-is) this does not seem like quality or stability in my opinion. Indeed, there was a time between the community maintainer of Chromium leaving and us finding another maintainer that it went relatively unmaintained (we still did a best effort to keep it updated, though it wasn't any one person's focus). Now we have Chad Miller maintaining Chromium fulltime. Is it not Chromium right now in Ubuntu that sits with open security vulnerabilities ( https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/chromium-browser/+bug/1183086) that have mind you been fixed in Debian and can be merged down? Where are the metrics on Firefox being less quality or stable or Chromium being more quality or stable? I'm fairly certain we won't be able to find hard data one way or another. Or, rather, in this case, whichever data we do find we could splice to support either opinion. Though, if anyone has hard data, I'm sure we would all love to see it! familiarity, A very unscientific vote but 56% of polled OMG! Ubuntu! Readers favor Firefox on Ubuntu: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/05/chromium-to-replace-firefox-as-default-browser-in-ubuntu I'm pretty certain if a poll/survey were put on Planet Ubuntu that it would lean in favor of Firefox as well. (Should the entire community not have input or should input be limited to the desktop team?) It seems the discussion has gotten to OMG!, Reddit and a couple other sites. Between those sites, we probably have a good cross-section of people. Though, I'll probably post to Ubuntu-Devel this weekend as well to broaden the conversation. Finally, I will point out that Ubuntu has a team of developers ( https://launchpad.net/~mozillateam) who have consistently kept Firefox up to date and quality cycle after cycle and Chromium is not yet their and may never get to that level of support in the Ubuntu Community. -- Benjamin Kerensa http://benjaminkerensa.com I am what I am because of who we all are - Ubuntu -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Default Browser Follow-up
On 06/12/2013 12:16 AM, Jason Warner wrote: What is important, and ultimately should be the deciding factor, is the common end user experience. Which browser, in the common case, will be the best for the general end user? Things I consider relevant to this discussion are quality/stability/robustness, familiarity, ease of use, and overall user experience. I use both browsers. Chrome/Chromium and Firefox. There is probably no answer to this question. Ease of use, robustness and familiarity are more or less the same for both browsers. Saying that one is better than the other is silly. Best bet? Ask user at the installation time and give option to install any of the major browsers. And keep one default. The secondary case to consider is web developers. I firmly believe that web developers would use both browsers on a regular basis, though do they generally prefer one browser to another? I don't consider this case to be a deciding factor, but rather could push one over the top if there isn't a clear front runner. Web developers will have both installed. To them it _really_ shouldn't matter which one is the default. It is mostly a personal preference which one is used for primary development and which ones are used for testing only. I'd like to reiterate one point: Neither browser is going away. If Chromium is the default, Firefox will continue to be available to those choosing Firefox. Vise versa for Chromium. No matter how hard you try and whatever happens, there will be people who won't be happy with the choice. Even if installing another is only three mouse clicks away. :) I really don't care about the default and most tech savvy shouldn't. In this discussion we need only information that is relevant for 'regular user'. So, why would my aunt be happier with Chromium/Firefox? In the end we come to integration. Which one is better integrated with Ubuntu? Regards, David -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Default Browser Follow-up
Regarding the user experience, one important thing I often see left out in the chromium vs firefox debate is the scrolling experience. Scrolling is a very essential part of the web browsing experience. Firefox has far, far, far superior scrolling than chromium. Its 2013 and chromium still does not have fully working smooth scroll, there's only an experimental flag, and the flag does not even work on all pages, and does not work at all with the middle click autoscroll (and the middle click autoscroll is what needs it the most, IMO middle click autoscroll is currently unusable in chromium because its so jittery, it totally defeats the purpose of the feature if it is not smooth). In comparison, out of the box firefox has butter smooth scrolling that works 100% of the time. -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Default Browser Follow-up
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jason Warner wrote on 11/06/13 23:16: ... 1. This is NOT about which browser is better. 2. This is NOT about which browser has more features or X, Y or Z feature. 3. Openness and freedom are still part of our core values. However I'd rather not turn this thread into a who is more open/free debate. What is important, and ultimately should be the deciding factor, is the common end user experience. Which browser, in the common case, will be the best for the general end user? Things I consider relevant to this discussion are quality/stability/robustness, As long as we can't compare error rates, any claim about quality/stability/robustness will likely be anecdote. (We can't compare error rates firstly because the error tracker doesn't track errors in Firefox at all, http://launchpad.net/bugs/1064395 and even if it did, secondly it doesn't know how much people have been using each browser. Without taking hours of use into account, the error rate for any default browser would dwarf that of any non-default one.) familiarity, It's easy to forget: Switching from Firefox to Chromium would be switching from a browser that most people have heard of, to a browser that almost no-one has heard of. If you did a survey, I predict that people who knew Chromium was a legitimate browser would be outnumbered by those who assumed it was a dodgy Chrome knockoff. (This is one of the reasons we didn't switch to Midori in Ubuntu 10.10, or Epiphany before that: users wouldn't have known what they were. A vicious cycle? Sure. But not our job to uncoil.) ease of use, and overall user experience. They seem pretty much equal at this point. The secondary case to consider is web developers. I firmly believe that web developers would use both browsers on a regular basis, though do they generally prefer one browser to another? I don't consider this case to be a deciding factor, but rather could push one over the top if there isn't a clear front runner. I have no idea which browser is preferred by Web developers, and I understand Web developers are important. But I don't understand why you're singling them out. Of all the market segments we could be interested in, Web developers would be among the most likely to install multiple browsers regardless, so they'd be among the *least* likely to be swayed by a default browser choice. - -- mpt -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with undefined - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlG51S0ACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecockACZATqZfwpHAe6K//Slp+AY5wDR 3mQAniWJ6MJGzwtb+dmWpkmOm2RGsSgj =RrUv -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Default Browser Follow-up
What is important, and ultimately should be the deciding factor, is the common end user experience. Which browser, in the common case, will be the best for the general end user? Things I consider relevant to this discussion are quality/stability/robustness, familiarity, ease of use, and overall user experience. On Quality: Chromium just as of last year was totally unmaintained Ubuntu ( http://askubuntu.com/questions/166931/why-is-chromium-not-updated-automatically-as-firefox-is) this does not seem like quality or stability in my opinion. Is it not Chromium right now in Ubuntu that sits with open security vulnerabilities ( https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/chromium-browser/+bug/1183086) that have mind you been fixed in Debian and can be merged down? Where are the metrics on Firefox being less quality or stable or Chromium being more quality or stable? familiarity, A very unscientific vote but 56% of polled OMG! Ubuntu! Readers favor Firefox on Ubuntu: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/05/chromium-to-replace-firefox-as-default-browser-in-ubuntu I'm pretty certain if a poll/survey were put on Planet Ubuntu that it would lean in favor of Firefox as well. (Should the entire community not have input or should input be limited to the desktop team?) Finally, I will point out that Ubuntu has a team of developers ( https://launchpad.net/~mozillateam) who have consistently kept Firefox up to date and quality cycle after cycle and Chromium is not yet their and may never get to that level of support in the Ubuntu Community. -- Benjamin Kerensa http://benjaminkerensa.com I am what I am because of who we all are - Ubuntu -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Default Browser Follow-up
hi, On Di, 2013-06-11 at 15:16 -0700, Jason Warner wrote: What is important, and ultimately should be the deciding factor, is the common end user experience. Which browser, in the common case, will be the best for the general end user? Things I consider relevant to this discussion are quality/stability/robustness, familiarity, ease of use, and overall user experience. as a fulltime ARM user for me firefox is completely unusable due to the fact that gecko can not make any use of GLES for rendering (the only GLES support firefox has is for WEBGL) chromiums backend can be built with full GLES support in the rendering engine and even has various commandline switches to fine tune this. in sites with heavy CSS use (G+ for example) scrolling in firefox is close to a slideshow while chromium with enabled GLES support is 1:1 responsive to scroll events. in the light of our convergence plans which surely include a lot of ARM based devices i would push for chromium despite the fact that it feels a lot less integrated with the UI and desktop (file open dialogs, theming etc) than firefox does. ciao oli signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Default Browser Follow-up
On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:51:19AM +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote: [...] in the light of our convergence plans which surely include a lot of ARM based devices i would push for chromium despite the fact that it feels a lot less integrated with the UI and desktop (file open dialogs, theming etc) than firefox does. What's up with the file open dialogs? It looks like the native Gtk2 dialog to me. -- Kind regards, Loong Jin signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
