Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Ubuntu Studio: We're out of space
Hi everyone, Just wanted to mention that our out-of-space issues have been resolved by bumping the ISO 9660 level to 3, which allows for file sizes of up to 400GiB. Our 4GiB squashfs hits a measly 1% of that, so it's going to be a while before we hit another limit. :) Special thanks to Steve Langasek and Łukasz Zemczak for helping find and test the solution and merging the fix to ubuntu-cdimage. I believe this will help all Ubuntu images rolling forward, not just Ubuntu Studio. :) On Thursday, March 24, 2022 4:26:13 PM PDT Steve Langasek wrote: > Ok. Brian Murray has addressed the source of this problem; the new images > were building successfully and being published, but incorrectly being > published as .img instead of .iso with the .iso being copied forward from > the previous directory. > > I have removed the wrongly-named '.img' files. The next daily build will > produce .iso files again. -- Erich Eickmeyer Project Leader - Ubuntu Studio Member - Ubuntu Community Council signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Ubuntu Studio: We're out of space
Hi Erich, On 25.03.2022 00.22, Erich Eickmeyer wrote: With that, we've got the two most active people working on Ubuntu Studio (myself and Len) who are onboard with the USB media idea. USB media is much cheaper than it used to be, and more readily available than DVD-/+Rs. I'm OK with increasing the size. We'll edit the ubuntustudio.org website to specify that they may want to use a USB stick. As a very inactive team member, I just wanted to add for the record that this sounds fine. In order to test the DVD, I was having to plug in a USB DVD read/writer to most of my machines anyway. The biggest issue is always having to unplug a USB device, to plug in the USB with the test ISO :-) I am slowly starting to get used to having to use kde based tools/apps instead of X/gnome based tools. It is a pain many times, but sometimes better. Keep up the good work. Ross -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Ubuntu Studio: We're out of space
On Thursday, March 24, 2022 4:26:13 PM PDT Steve Langasek wrote: > Ok. Brian Murray has addressed the source of this problem; the new images > were building successfully and being published, but incorrectly being > published as .img instead of .iso with the .iso being copied forward from > the previous directory. > > I have removed the wrongly-named '.img' files. The next daily build will > produce .iso files again. Thanks, Steve. Additionally, please increase the limit of the image size as we've decided USB media is OK for our purposes (discussed in a separate email). This should be reminiscent of when Ubuntu Studio had to go with the DVD route many years ago when other flavors were still on CDs. -- Erich Eickmeyer Project Leader - Ubuntu Studio Member - Ubuntu Community Council signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Ubuntu Studio: We're out of space
On Thursday, March 24, 2022 4:26:13 PM PDT Steve Langasek wrote: > Ok. Brian Murray has addressed the source of this problem; the new images > were building successfully and being published, but incorrectly being > published as .img instead of .iso with the .iso being copied forward from > the previous directory. > > I have removed the wrongly-named '.img' files. The next daily build will > produce .iso files again. Thanks, Steve. Additionally, please increase the limit of the image size as we've decided USB media is OK for our purposes (discussed in a separate email). This should be reminiscent of when Ubuntu Studio had to go with the DVD route many years ago when other flavors were still on CDs. -- Erich Eickmeyer Project Leader - Ubuntu Studio Member - Ubuntu Community Council signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Ubuntu Studio: We're out of space
On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 07:37:17AM -0700, Erich Eickmeyer wrote: > > If Ubuntu Studio decide they don't care about the image fitting on a > > DVD, we can simply raise the size limit. But in that case, I don't > > think we should call the image build itself a 'dvd' any more; and I also > > think that in short order (but not necessarily for 22.04) we should stop > > building this as a hybrid image since it's no longer practical to use it > > on optical media. If it's going to only be usable on a USB stick, then > > let's fix how we build it and avoid all the indirection that exists ONLY > > so that it can be used on optical media. > We have discussed going with the USB stick route. However, what spurred this > is because not only the OVERSIZED warning, but also because the images are > merely copies of the 20220322 image and are not updating upon build. I > thought > this was due to the oversize warning. Either way, this is very concerning as > we can't correctly test the builds due to a resolved bug involving automount > conflicting with Calamares. Ok. Brian Murray has addressed the source of this problem; the new images were building successfully and being published, but incorrectly being published as .img instead of .iso with the .iso being copied forward from the previous directory. I have removed the wrongly-named '.img' files. The next daily build will produce .iso files again. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developer https://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Ubuntu Studio: We're out of space
On Thursday, March 24, 2022 1:18:27 PM PDT Len Ovens wrote: > On Thu, 24 Mar 2022, Erich Eickmeyer wrote: > >> If it's going to only be usable on a USB stick, then let's fix how we > >> build > >> it and avoid all the indirection that exists ONLY so that it can be used > >> on > >> optical media. > > As 32bit systems are no longer supported anyway, I am not sure there are > any 64bit systems that can not load from a USB stick. The only reason I > have a DVD player/writer is because I have a PCIe PATA card and the DVD is > used for playing media just because of the pain in find blank DVD/CDs and > formating data to put it on there in the first place is also a pain. The > new full size case my son bought doesn't even have a cd/dvd bay. > > So anyway, A bootable USB install media format limited only by the USB > stick size makes sense to me too. The only problem I see with that (I > really don't know if it would even be a problem) is, would current > windows/mac based USB stick writing tools still be able to create a > bootable USB stick? I am assuming dd would still be able to write the > whole image to the stick. I more advanced utility could format the whole > stick, making it persistant too, though making it persistant after the > fact might be a better route. (I personally have no need for this but the > question does pop up from time to time) > > Len > With that, we've got the two most active people working on Ubuntu Studio (myself and Len) who are onboard with the USB media idea. USB media is much cheaper than it used to be, and more readily available than DVD-/+Rs. I'm OK with increasing the size. We'll edit the ubuntustudio.org website to specify that they may want to use a USB stick. Let's go with that, if you wouldn't mind, Steve. Thanks! -- Erich Eickmeyer Project Leader - Ubuntu Studio Member - Ubuntu Community Council signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Ubuntu Studio: We're out of space
On Thu, 24 Mar 2022, Jonathan Aquilina wrote: Hi Guys, More a long time lurker here and I used to use studio in the past. Wouldnt it be easier to strip everything to bare bones and allow the user to choose what apps to install on first login by popping up the package manager GUI? We already have that option as a one package install that can work with any Ubuntu flavour. This package installs the bare minimum Studio packages and then allows adding various workflow metas to that. However, the reason for providing an image with everything, is to provide: A) An install that does not require network access B) A live image that allows a user to try out just what UbuntuStudio is with all SW. C) A complete install with Studio specific theming and menus D) A live image that can be used stand alone to do actual work. (yes this is a subset of B above) So rather than stripping things to "bare bones", it would make much more sense (if we wanted to abandon having a working live image, I don't think so) would be to provide a "PPA" on a stick... plug in the stick from any flavour, open it in a file manager and run an installer. The image could even be stacked as a second partition on the same stick as the desired flavour image. I guess an image with two paritions would work even easier. However, at that point, just providing a full size image with everything in one partition would be less work and less error prone not only in creating the image but also in creating the USB stick, using it and installing it. Len -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Ubuntu Studio: We're out of space
On Thu, 24 Mar 2022, Erich Eickmeyer wrote: If it's going to only be usable on a USB stick, then let's fix how we build it and avoid all the indirection that exists ONLY so that it can be used on optical media. As 32bit systems are no longer supported anyway, I am not sure there are any 64bit systems that can not load from a USB stick. The only reason I have a DVD player/writer is because I have a PCIe PATA card and the DVD is used for playing media just because of the pain in find blank DVD/CDs and formating data to put it on there in the first place is also a pain. The new full size case my son bought doesn't even have a cd/dvd bay. So anyway, A bootable USB install media format limited only by the USB stick size makes sense to me too. The only problem I see with that (I really don't know if it would even be a problem) is, would current windows/mac based USB stick writing tools still be able to create a bootable USB stick? I am assuming dd would still be able to write the whole image to the stick. I more advanced utility could format the whole stick, making it persistant too, though making it persistant after the fact might be a better route. (I personally have no need for this but the question does pop up from time to time) Len PS this is being written from a 32 bit machine that is no longer Ubuntu but mainline debian... -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Ubuntu Studio: We're out of space
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 10:28:06PM -0700, Erich Eickmeyer wrote: > At the time, it seemed like a good idea, as both Plasma and Xfce were > around the same size in disk space, and we also decided, Ubuntu Studio > isn't tied to its desktop environment. > The problem that I'm seeing is that the ISO 9660 spec, the standard on > which all of our ISO images are built, has a hard limit of 4096MB per file > size. In our case, the squashfs file size is exceeding that. This is > resulting in failed builds. No, it isn't? https://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/ There have been multiple successful image builds over the past several days. If this is all because of the 'OVERSIZED' warning, I've addressed that on IRC. The header on https://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/ explains further: Warning: This image is oversized (which is a bug) and will not fit onto a single-sided single-layer DVD. However, you may still test it using a larger USB drive or a virtual machine. If Ubuntu Studio decide they don't care about the image fitting on a DVD, we can simply raise the size limit. But in that case, I don't think we should call the image build itself a 'dvd' any more; and I also think that in short order (but not necessarily for 22.04) we should stop building this as a hybrid image since it's no longer practical to use it on optical media. If it's going to only be usable on a USB stick, then let's fix how we build it and avoid all the indirection that exists ONLY so that it can be used on optical media. > HOWEVER, and this is why I'm CCing the Release Team and ubuntu-devel@, > there is another ISO format that works for DVD: ISO 13346, aka UDF. This > allows for a virtually unlimited filesize, although I've seen anecdotal > mentions of 1024GB (1TB). This would be preferable, and on behalf of > Ubuntu Studio, we request this switch if able, or even an alternative. I > realize this is short notice prior to beta, I've established that it's not actually necessary here, but for the record it would be completely impossible to make that switch in time for beta. We have never built a UDF-format image, none of the tools are installed on the image build server to support this format, we have certainly never done a hybrid image with UDF (which means the easiest implementation would be a *non*-hybrid image, so if it's not a hybrid image why not just do a USB image instead? see above), and various parts of our installer-specific initramfs code assumes iso9660. > It seems that Ubuntu Kylin shares our plight. The only shared plight is that both flavors currently have images that are oversized for the limits that have been declared in the code... -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developer https://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Ubuntu Studio: We're out of space
Hi Jonathan, On Thursday, March 24, 2022 7:52:33 AM PDT Jonathan Aquilina wrote: > Hi Guys, > > More a long time lurker here and I used to use studio in the past. > > Wouldnt it be easier to strip everything to bare bones and allow the user to > choose what apps to install on first login by popping up the package > manager GUI? In my original email that's what I proposed, but it's way too late to do that in 22.04 LTS with Beta Freeze being Monday. However, instead of popping-up Discover or Muon, it would be something more akin to ubuntustudio-installer for people to pick what they need. Unfortunately, that defeats the purpose of having a live image to try things prior to installation, so keep that in mind. -- Erich Eickmeyer Project Leader - Ubuntu Studio Member - Ubuntu Community Council signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Ubuntu Studio: We're out of space
On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 11:56:30 PM PDT Steve Langasek wrote: > On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 10:28:06PM -0700, Erich Eickmeyer wrote: > If this is all because of the 'OVERSIZED' warning, I've addressed that on > IRC. The header on https://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/ > explains further: > > Warning: This image is oversized (which is a bug) and will not fit onto a > single-sided single-layer DVD. However, you may still test it using a > larger USB drive or a virtual machine. > > If Ubuntu Studio decide they don't care about the image fitting on a DVD, we > can simply raise the size limit. But in that case, I don't think we should > call the image build itself a 'dvd' any more; and I also think that in > short order (but not necessarily for 22.04) we should stop building this as > a hybrid image since it's no longer practical to use it on optical media. > If it's going to only be usable on a USB stick, then let's fix how we build > it and avoid all the indirection that exists ONLY so that it can be used on > optical media. We have discussed going with the USB stick route. However, what spurred this is because not only the OVERSIZED warning, but also because the images are merely copies of the 20220322 image and are not updating upon build. I thought this was due to the oversize warning. Either way, this is very concerning as we can't correctly test the builds due to a resolved bug involving automount conflicting with Calamares. > > HOWEVER, and this is why I'm CCing the Release Team and ubuntu-devel@, > > there is another ISO format that works for DVD: ISO 13346, aka UDF. This > > allows for a virtually unlimited filesize, although I've seen anecdotal > > mentions of 1024GB (1TB). This would be preferable, and on behalf of > > Ubuntu Studio, we request this switch if able, or even an alternative. I > > realize this is short notice prior to beta, > > I've established that it's not actually necessary here, but for the record > it would be completely impossible to make that switch in time for beta. We > have never built a UDF-format image, none of the tools are installed on the > image build server to support this format, we have certainly never done a > hybrid image with UDF (which means the easiest implementation would be a > *non*-hybrid image, so if it's not a hybrid image why not just do a USB > image instead? see above), and various parts of our installer-specific > initramfs code assumes iso9660. Fair. I honestly didn't expect that, but it was a thought. > > It seems that Ubuntu Kylin shares our plight. > > The only shared plight is that both flavors currently have images that are > oversized for the limits that have been declared in the code... Again, fair. -- Erich Eickmeyer Project Leader - Ubuntu Studio Member - Ubuntu Community Council signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
[ubuntu-studio-devel] Ubuntu Studio: We're out of space
Hi everyone, Two years ago, at Ubuntu Studio,we decided switch our default desktop environment to KDE Plasma. Unfortunately, that is coming back to bite us. At the time, it seemed like a good idea, as both Plasma and Xfce were around the same size in disk space, and we also decided, Ubuntu Studio isn't tied to its desktop environment. The problem that I'm seeing is that the ISO 9660 spec, the standard on which all of our ISO images are built, has a hard limit of 4096MB per file size. In our case, the squashfs file size is exceeding that. This is resulting in failed builds. HOWEVER, and this is why I'm CCing the Release Team and ubuntu-devel@, there is another ISO format that works for DVD: ISO 13346, aka UDF. This allows for a virtually unlimited filesize, although I've seen anecdotal mentions of 1024GB (1TB). This would be preferable, and on behalf of Ubuntu Studio, we request this switch if able, or even an alternative. I realize this is short notice prior to beta, but we don't have much choice as the amount I'm having to remove is basically nullifying Ubuntu Studio's reason to exist in that we're having to severely limit the amount of tools we can carry. It seems that Ubuntu Kylin shares our plight. To emphasize this note, the squashfs file size is only going to get larger. Kubuntu is already at 3.5GB (more on that later), and if current pace holds, they'll have the same problem Ubuntu Studio has now in two years. In fact, Ubuntu Desktop isn't far behind at 3.3GB, meaning this is going to become a problem for *everyone* sooner rather than later. Basically, the ISO 9660 limitation can no longer be ignored and we need to find a new solution, not in the future, but *now*. When one flavor suffers, we all suffer, regardless of commercial support. The table below shows the official flavors and their corresponding image size as of this writing, from smallest to largest: Xubuntu: 1.9GB Lubuntu: 2.4GB Ubuntu Budgie: 2.7GB Ubuntu MATE: 2.8GB Ubuntu (GNOME): 3.3GB Kubuntu: 3.5GB Ubuntu Kylin:3.9+GB (shows as oversized) Ubuntu Studio: 4.0+GB (shows as oversized) You can see that KDE Plasma (Kubuntu) is taking up so much space that it's leaving us with very few tools to put on the image. This wasn't a huge problem at first, but as soon as we seeded the Firefox Snap it became a reality, taking a whopping 156MB *compressed space*, meaning that's about how much room it takes in the squashfs, if not more. If the trend continues and more apps become snaps, we can only expect this to grow, meaning the ISO 9660 standard is no longer a viable option for anyone. For the Ubuntu Studio team, if the above requests cannot be accommodated (or won't be because nobody cares about Studio), then we have to look at perhaps switching DE *again*. Another option I'm looking at, which wouldn't work for 22.04 LTS as it's just too late, is making a welcome application that people can install the metapackages that they need for their particular workflows while still keeping the Studio optimizations that make us Studio (lowlatency kernel, etc). However, I've spent several evenings going through the seed trying to trim excess, and I am just out of excess to trim. Thoughts? We need answers, and fast. Beta freeze is Monday, and we're running out of time. -- Erich Eickmeyer Project Leader - Ubuntu Studio Member - Ubuntu Community Council signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
