Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Thierry Carrez]

Ryan Dwyer wrote:
> Please reply with your thoughts.

I posted that a while ago:
http://fnords.wordpress.com/2009/03/27/the-server-gui-dilemma/

"Something which has a GUI, is very easy to manage and works best with
Ubuntu workstations."

Isn't our product with a GUI on which you can deploy server packages
called "Ubuntu Desktop Edition" ?

This discussion should rather occur on the ubuntu-server ML :)

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Ubuntu server team

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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Reviving the Marketing Team (yet again!) with a focus on simple activism

[Danny Piccirillo]

>
> > I merely wanted to propose changing or adding to the scope of the team
> > to include general activism. Dropping all focus on marketing probably
> > isn't going to be any better, not to mention that just like marketing,
> > activism is also something done by local community teams, BUT adding
> > simple activism to the scope of this team, might give the team more
> > purpose and drive up activity in other areas. Yes, marketing Ubuntu
> > *is* activism, but i'm talking about officially recognizing general
> > FOSS activism as one of the functions of the team.
>
> I'd advise against including activism. You don't need to widen the
> scope. You just need to find someone or some people willing and able to
> drop their own LoCo's work and come higher into the world community. A
> leader perhaps?
>
> > The mailing list can be used to share ideas for activism and pass on
> > things like this open letter to Obama in support of FOSS (reddit
> > link: http://www.reddit.com/tb/9w23y/ original
> > link:
> http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20091020050110241).
> If you're in support of this idea, just pass on any simple actions you come
> across to the list. There's also this nifty activism guide:
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ActivismGuide
>
> Interesting, thanks for posting Dan.


Perhaps the loco-contacts list is already the best place to send such
things...i completely forgot about that. Thanks for the thoughtful reply,
hopefully such a leader will see it and get the team going again
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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Reviving the Marketing Team (yet again!) with a focus on simple activism

[Martin Owens]

Hey Danny,

On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 01:30 -0400, Danny Piccirillo wrote:
> Cross-posting just to get the word out. 

I've added the Ubuntu LoCo Contacts lists, a group very pertinent to
this topic.

> Many lengthy and interesting discussions have come up about what to do
> with the Marketing Team. Ultimately, it comes down to how motivated
> people are to create their own projects under the team. Just like any
> other LoCo, this depends on individual involvement, but i don't want
> to start yet another discussion on this. 

Well, what might be needed is someone to head up the team. Some artist
or designer (not developer) who stands like a poised like a hero against
the backdrop of the Ubuntu Community landscape and to whome we can all
look up and say: "I bet if I ask him, he'll know where I can get a
poster for my event"

As the moment I produce content, I don't tend to produce it under the
banner of the marketing team. The website for spread ubuntu isn't linked
very well with the marketing team and the marketing team has no grand
vision or responsibilities.

> I merely wanted to propose changing or adding to the scope of the team
> to include general activism. Dropping all focus on marketing probably
> isn't going to be any better, not to mention that just like marketing,
> activism is also something done by local community teams, BUT adding
> simple activism to the scope of this team, might give the team more
> purpose and drive up activity in other areas. Yes, marketing Ubuntu
> *is* activism, but i'm talking about officially recognizing general
> FOSS activism as one of the functions of the team. 

I'd advise against including activism. You don't need to widen the
scope. You just need to find someone or some people willing and able to
drop their own LoCo's work and come higher into the world community. A
leader perhaps?

> The mailing list can be used to share ideas for activism and pass on
> things like this open letter to Obama in support of FOSS (reddit
> link: http://www.reddit.com/tb/9w23y/ original
> link: 
> http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20091020050110241).
>  If you're in support of this idea, just pass on any simple actions you come 
> across to the list. There's also this nifty activism guide: 
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ActivismGuide

Interesting, thanks for posting Dan.

Best Regards, Martin Owens


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Reviving the Marketing Team (yet again!) with a focus on simple activism

[Danny Piccirillo]

Cross-posting just to get the word out.

Many lengthy and interesting discussions have come up about what to do with
the Marketing Team. Ultimately, it comes down to how motivated people are to
create their own projects under the team. Just like any other LoCo, this
depends on individual involvement, but i don't want to start yet another
discussion on this.
I merely wanted to propose changing or adding to the scope of the team to
include general activism. Dropping all focus on marketing probably isn't
going to be any better, not to mention that just like marketing, activism is
also something done by local community teams, BUT *adding* simple activism
to the scope of this team, might give the team more purpose and drive up
activity in other areas. Yes, marketing Ubuntu *is* activism, but i'm
talking about officially recognizing general FOSS activism as one of the
functions of the team.

The mailing list can be used to share ideas for activism and pass on things
like this *open letter to Obama in support of FOSS* (reddit link:
http://www.reddit.com/tb/9w23y/ original link:
http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20091020050110241).
If you're in support of this idea, just pass on any simple actions you come
across to the list. There's also this nifty activism guide:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ActivismGuide

All the best!

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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Onno Benschop]

On 21/10/09 10:45, Ryan Dwyer wrote:
> Can anyone recommend what my next step should be? Should I post it on
> brainstorm.ubuntu.com  or make a
> blueprint in Launchpad? I'm working on a spec at the moment.
>
> -Ryan

Brainstorm will help determine if this is a good idea.

A Launchpad blueprint is a place to start documenting precisely what you
want to achieve and why.

So, it depends on what you want to do. If you want someone else to do
the work, you need to convince them that it's a good idea. If you want
to help make it happen, you should write down what it should entail. Of
course these two options are not mutually exclusive :)

Cheers,

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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Ryan Dwyer]

Can anyone recommend what my next step should be? Should I post it on
brainstorm.ubuntu.com or make a blueprint in Launchpad? I'm working on a
spec at the moment.
-Ryan

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Martin Owens  wrote:

>
>
> Am 20.10.2009 um 11:26 schrieb Michael Zoet:
> > I think it is a big mistake to believe server administration is
> > easy when
> > you have a GUI.
>
> Servers are easier to administrate when you have education, easy tool
> use is useful. But broad sweeping statements like "GUI for the win" is
> not accurate.
>
> I'd just be happy with some UI design attention given to the command
> line. You know how difficult the find command is to intuitively use.
>
> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 08:18 -0700, George Farris wrote:
> > This is certainly true and while I'm a command line guy, have been for
> > years, it is very difficult to keep up with changes in command line
> > tools as things come and go.  This is where the GUI shines.  Just look
> > at all the wealth of information out there about how to configure LDAP
> > for example.  If you Google for this you will end up with much that is
> > just plain wrong.  Again this is where the GUI really shines.
>
> The OpenLDAP documentation problem is that it will go wrong a lot of the
> time and many, many howtos will not cover these problems. Not only that
> but the majority fail to cover basic conceptual ideas first. So they're
> great how-tos (if they work) but not so good educational tools.
>
> Martin,
>
>
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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Martin Owens]

Am 20.10.2009 um 11:26 schrieb Michael Zoet:
> I think it is a big mistake to believe server administration is  
> easy when
> you have a GUI.

Servers are easier to administrate when you have education, easy tool
use is useful. But broad sweeping statements like "GUI for the win" is
not accurate.

I'd just be happy with some UI design attention given to the command
line. You know how difficult the find command is to intuitively use.

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 08:18 -0700, George Farris wrote:
> This is certainly true and while I'm a command line guy, have been for
> years, it is very difficult to keep up with changes in command line
> tools as things come and go.  This is where the GUI shines.  Just look
> at all the wealth of information out there about how to configure LDAP
> for example.  If you Google for this you will end up with much that is
> just plain wrong.  Again this is where the GUI really shines.

The OpenLDAP documentation problem is that it will go wrong a lot of the
time and many, many howtos will not cover these problems. Not only that
but the majority fail to cover basic conceptual ideas first. So they're
great how-tos (if they work) but not so good educational tools.

Martin,


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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[George Farris]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 13:40 +0200, Markus Hitter wrote:
> Am 20.10.2009 um 11:26 schrieb Michael Zoet:
> 
> > I think it is a big mistake to believe server administration is  
> > easy when
> > you have a GUI.
> 
> That's mostly true, but in a GUI you have much easier access to  
> HowTos, the web in general, man pages and so on. Additionally, you  
> can assist an admin with Popups, colors and graphs. Menus give a much  
> better overview than an invisible list of options, and so on ...

Just to add to this, it doesn't really have to be a GUI it could be a
nice curses based app as well.




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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[George Farris]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 13:40 +0200, Markus Hitter wrote:
> Am 20.10.2009 um 11:26 schrieb Michael Zoet:
> 
> > I think it is a big mistake to believe server administration is  
> > easy when
> > you have a GUI.
> 
> That's mostly true, but in a GUI you have much easier access to  
> HowTos, the web in general, man pages and so on. Additionally, you  
> can assist an admin with Popups, colors and graphs. Menus give a much  
> better overview than an invisible list of options, and so on ...

This is certainly true and while I'm a command line guy, have been for
years, it is very difficult to keep up with changes in command line
tools as things come and go.  This is where the GUI shines.  Just look
at all the wealth of information out there about how to configure LDAP
for example.  If you Google for this you will end up with much that is
just plain wrong.  Again this is where the GUI really shines.

Cheers



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Minutes from the Technical Board meeting, 2009-10-20

[Scott James Remnant]

= Attendees =

Colin Watson
Kees Cook
Mark Shuttleworth
Martin Pitt
Matt Zimmerman
Scott James Remnant (chair)

= Notes =

 * Review actions from last meeting
  * Keybuk to finalize unit policy and email to TB for vote
   See agenda item.
  * cjwatson to drive vote on Archive Reorg rights for ubuntu-desktop
and mythbuntu in email
   This has been done.
  * pitti to announce DMB meeting next Tuesday 1400
   This was done.

 * Developer Membership Board

  The inaugural meeting took place last week, and meetings will take
  place every two weeks thereafter as required.

  ACTION (continued): jono to review and update governance documentation
  to reflect that the DMB is now handling developer applications, not
  the TB

 * Units Policy

  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnitsPolicy

  General consensus on the draft policy has been reached, with a note
  that the exception section could do with being less rules-based and
  merely granted to the traditional tools such as df and du, perhaps
  directly by name.

  ACTION: Keybuk to drive units policy to completion and vote by e-mail

 * EC2 image updates

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-September/028954.html

  Discussion of Scott Moser's draft proposal for providing updated EC2
  kernel (AKI), ramdisk (ARI) and filesystem (AMI) images on a regular
  basis throughout the cycle.

  It was agreed that an update to the kernel requires all three images
  to be updated, and that an update to either the ramdisk or filesystem
  needs those two images to be updated.

  The schedule was agreed to be based on the time to download the
  updates not included in a new image (which users need to configure
  themselves currently), and based on security issues.

  These updated images will be provided throughout the support cycle for
  the given release.

  ACTION: Scott Moser to dedraft from an RFC to a policy
  ACTION: Scott Moser to continue working on a system to find the right
  root filesystem

 * Community Bugs: none this week
 * Next meeting: Keybuk and cjwatson are unable to attend the next
   meeting, mdz may not be able to attend
 * Chair for next meeting: SABDFL

Scott
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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Derek Broughton]

Ryan Dwyer wrote:

> I agree that all networks should be managed by an experienced
> administrator, but unfortunately a lot of them aren't. We can't change
> that.

Indeed - so instead of saying that administration should only be _possible_ 
by experts, we need _poor_ administration to be _impossible_ (or at least 
difficult).

> Many businesses just want something that works and is easy to
> manage, even if there are "issues" such as no backups.

And everyone's entitled to not have backups.  But if your server sends 
emails telling you you don't have any backups, that could be a hint :-)

> No amount of marketing will make regular people switch to Linux on their
> home desktop. Regular people don't even know what an operating system is.

More importantly, though, if you give them a Linux with all the tools needed 
to interoperate with Windows, they don't _know_ they're running Linux, 
either.

>> I will never understand why a server GUI would improve anything? 

I will never understand why elitists hate GUIs.  A good UI should improve 
things by absolutely preventing misconfiguration.  

>> If you
>> are (also) in Windows system administration you know that a GUI has it's
>> limitations. And even good Windows admins know how to write Windows
>> scripts for automation and need to read a lot of documentation. Knowledge
>> is one of the most important things for a system administrator. Doing
>> things on the command line in Ubuntu gives you the chance to get this
>> knowledge.

But, as Ryan points out, just because a sysadmin _should_ have knowledge 
doesn't mean that the person running the system will ever be knowledgeable.  
You don't get paid enough as a sysadmin to care.
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Re: Errors during update process

[Benjamin Drung]

Am Dienstag, den 20.10.2009, 15:23 +0200 schrieb Sebastian Geiger:
> My question would be why libequinox-osgi-java failed in the first place,
> and second, why is the evolution package being held back? Is there a way
> to get aptitude to tell me the reason? Obviously why, why-not was not
> very conclusive.

The failed installation of libequinox-osgi-java is bug #455023 [1] and
it is already fixed with eclipse 3.5.1-0ubuntu7.

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Errors during update process

[Sebastian Geiger]

Hi, I just subscribed to this mailing list because Im not sure it what
Im experiencing was a bug or just a random error. I updated my Karmic
today with aptitude save-upgrade and got the following error. I added
some lines of the output before and after the error:

Preparing to replace eclipse-platform-data 3.5.1-0ubuntu2 (using
.../eclipse-platform-data_3.5.1-0ubuntu6_all.deb) ...
Unpacking replacement eclipse-platform-data ...
Selecting previously deselected package libequinox-osgi-java.
Unpacking libequinox-osgi-java (from
.../libequinox-osgi-java_3.5.1-0ubuntu6_amd64.deb) ...
dpkg: error processing
/var/cache/apt/archives/libequinox-osgi-java_3.5.1-0ubuntu6_amd64.deb
(--unpack):
 trying to overwrite
'/usr/lib/eclipse/plugins/org.eclipse.osgi.services_3.2.0.v20090520-1800.jar',
which is also in package eclipse-rcp 0:3.5.1-0ubuntu2
dpkg-deb: subprocess paste killed by signal (Broken pipe)
Preparing to replace libgtk2.0-common 2.18.2-1 (using
.../libgtk2.0-common_2.18.3-1_all.deb) ...
Unpacking replacement libgtk2.0-common ...
Preparing to replace libgtk2.0-dev 2.18.2-1 (using
.../libgtk2.0-dev_2.18.3-1_amd64.deb) ...
Unpacking replacement libgtk2.0-dev ...

The update process then continued until I got this:
Errors were encountered while processing:
 /var/cache/apt/archives/libequinox-osgi-java_3.5.1-0ubuntu6_amd64.deb
E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
A package failed to install.  Trying to recover:
Setting up libgtk2.0-common (2.18.3-1) ...
dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of eclipse-rcp:
 eclipse-rcp depends on libequinox-osgi-java (= 3.5.1-0ubuntu6); however:
  Package libequinox-osgi-java is not installed.
dpkg: error processing eclipse-rcp (--configure):
 dependency problems - leaving unconfigured
Setting up eclipse-platform-data (3.5.1-0ubuntu6) ...
Setting up libgtk2.0-0 (2.18.3-1) ...

Setting up gtk2-engines-pixbuf (2.18.3-1) ...
dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of eclipse-platform:
 eclipse-platform depends on eclipse-rcp (= 3.5.1-0ubuntu6); however:
  Package eclipse-rcp is not configured yet.
dpkg: error processing eclipse-platform (--configure):
 dependency problems - leaving unconfigured
Setting up libgail18 (2.18.3-1) ...

Setting up libgtk2.0-dev (2.18.3-1) ...
Setting up libgail-common (2.18.3-1) ...
Setting up libswt-gtk-3.5-jni (3.5.1-0ubuntu6) ...
dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of eclipse-plugin-cvs:
 eclipse-plugin-cvs depends on eclipse-platform (= 3.5.1-0ubuntu6); however:
  Package eclipse-platform is not configured yet.
dpkg: error processing eclipse-plugin-cvs (--configure):
 dependency problems - leaving unconfigured
dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of eclipse-pde:
 eclipse-pde depends on eclipse-platform (= 3.5.1-0ubuntu6); however:
  Package eclipse-platform is not configured yet.
dpkg: error processing eclipse-pde (--configure):
 dependency problems - leaving unconfigured
dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of eclipse-jdt:
 eclipse-jdt depends on eclipse-platform (= 3.5.1-0ubuntu6); however:
  Package eclipse-platform is not configured yet.
dpkg: error processing eclipse-jdt (--configure):
 dependency problems - leaving unconfigured
Setting up libswt-gtk-3.5-java (3.5.1-0ubuntu6) ...
Processing triggers for libc-bin ...
ldconfig deferred processing now taking place
Errors were encountered while processing:
 eclipse-rcp
 eclipse-platform
 eclipse-plugin-cvs
 eclipse-pde
 eclipse-jdt
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Reading extended state information
Initializing package states... Done
Writing extended state information... Done

Current status: 1 broken [+1], 100 updates [-14].

Afterwards I suspended my Notebook and just now resumed it and ran
another safe-upgrade and everything ran through fine:

Current status: 0 broken [-1], 1 update [-99].

Only one update is being kept back without any apperent reason:
aptitude why evolution-data-server-common
i   libedataserverui1.2-8 Depends evolution-data-server-common (>= 2.26.0)
aptitude why-not evolution-data-server-common
Unable to find a reason to remove evolution-data-server-common.

My question would be why libequinox-osgi-java failed in the first place,
and second, why is the evolution package being held back? Is there a way
to get aptitude to tell me the reason? Obviously why, why-not was not
very conclusive.

Regards
Lanoxx


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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Chan Chung Hang Christopher]

> I think that EduBuntu does most if not all of this.
>   

I don't know. There has been an earthquake in Edubuntu land and I really 
doubt that Edubuntu has anything special server administration wise.

> I think that if we could build a drop in Domain Controller that also
> speaks to Windows machines, we'd be on a winner.
>   

Uh...we do? OH, you meant an Active Directory capable box? Please assist 
Samba 4 development so that we can play ball.

> Many years ago (when I was still running Debian), I wrote an article
> about this: http://itmaze.com.au/articles/cio/
>
>   


I suspect that many have wished for such a thing but they refrained from 
writing about this super idea while Andrew Tridgell and gang are in the 
trenches trying to get it implemented.

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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Chan Chung Hang Christopher]

> Yes, we need GUI - GTK and web based. That wouldn't be a problem. How
> to manage all configs and keep ease of use from command line - that's
> real challenge. Who will code this?
>   

Web-based - check. Heard of webmin?

> As example how I would like to see server management for Ubuntu in
> gui, see OS X ServerAdmin.
>
>   

O_o


How are we supposed to get our hands on an Apple server again? See OS X 
ServerAdmin he says.

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Re: how to apply a patch to glibc and build it?

[skar]

Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> ma, 2009-10-12 kello 11:29 +0530, skar kirjoitti:
>   
>> The question is, how do I build glibc sources with my patch using the 
>> "debuild" command?
>> 
> This should work, if I remember correctly:
>
> apt-get source libc6
> cd glibc-whatever
> debian/rules patch
> ... make your changes
> debuild
>   
Thanks, that indeed gets me the source tree under build-tree with all 
the patches applied. However, running "debuild" rm -rf's the build-tree 
and unzips it again.

However, I've found a way. I added my diff file to the 
debian/patches/i386/ dir and added the diff file to the 
debian/patches/series file under the i386 list and now running debuild 
unpacks, then applies patches including my own patch and it builds fine :)

Still, I've got 2 other problems.
1) How do I make debuild use "make -j5" since I've got a quad core 
machine and it's using only one cc process.
2) It builds i386 libc+locales, then proceeds to build i386-686 
libc+locales. Can I instead force it to build for only i386-686, which I 
presume will work on any machine released within the last 3 years?

Thanks once again for your response.

cheers,
skar.

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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Markus Hitter]

Am 20.10.2009 um 11:26 schrieb Michael Zoet:

> I think it is a big mistake to believe server administration is  
> easy when
> you have a GUI.

That's mostly true, but in a GUI you have much easier access to  
HowTos, the web in general, man pages and so on. Additionally, you  
can assist an admin with Popups, colors and graphs. Menus give a much  
better overview than an invisible list of options, and so on ...


Markus

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter
http://www.jump-ing.de/





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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Peteris Krisjanis]

I would like to second these thoughts. Also, even for super admin,
while managing a lot of boxes command line can get very dull and
depressive (I *know* how to do samba stuff in command line, but that's
not *why* I am using Linux). Lot of people aren't admins, and they
never will be, but they would like to have small box for file sharing
and stuff. Why we shall block their wish?

Yes, we need GUI - GTK and web based. That wouldn't be a problem. How
to manage all configs and keep ease of use from command line - that's
real challenge. Who will code this?

As example how I would like to see server management for Ubuntu in
gui, see OS X ServerAdmin.

Cheers,
Peteris.

2009/10/20 Ryan Dwyer :
> I agree that all networks should be managed by an experienced administrator,
> but unfortunately a lot of them aren't. We can't change that. Many
> businesses just want something that works and is easy to manage, even if
> there are "issues" such as no backups. The target audience is the general
> public, and the general public isn't going to know how to configure servers
> using a CLI. They want something simple that gets the job done, and they're
> who we need to cater for.
>
> The GUI isn't what sells the product but it plays a key part. What sells the
> product is the fact that it's easy to use plus the other benefits I wrote
> about which Windows cannot/does not provide (images, auditing, centralised
> management of all installed software).
> Linux usage in my town is absolutely minimal. In my town you can enrol in a
> course for Windows but not Linux. Our town's computer callout team are
> skilled in Windows only. They set up Windows networks because it's easy. No
> amount of improving packages and marketing will make these people switch to
> a CLI environment.
> No amount of marketing will make regular people switch to Linux on their
> home desktop. Regular people don't even know what an operating system is.
> You need to throw it in their face, make them experience it, and the
> workplace is the best way to do this. They use it at work, then they say "I
> want what they have" and it goes from there.
> -Ryan
> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Michael Zoet  wrote:
>>
>> > Hi everyone,
>> > What are your thoughts on having a server product that competes with
>> > Windows
>> > Server? Something which has a GUI, is very easy to manage and works best
>> > with Ubuntu workstations.
>> >
>>
>> Such topics pop up every now and then on various Ubuntu mailinglists.
>>
>> I think it is a big mistake to believe server administration is easy when
>> you have a GUI. I have seen a lot of small companies networks where they
>> used Windows and had no admin because everything is so easy... Most of
>> them even had no working backup...
>> In my opinion most companies need admins with knowledge, not another GUI
>> people can misconfigure their networks.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> > I believe targeting this market is the key to having Ubuntu take over
>> > the
>> > desktop. Businesses will use Ubuntu servers and workstations if there
>> > are
>> > great benefits over Windows equivalents. This results in everyday
>> > employees
>> > experiencing Ubuntu at work, which leads to Ubuntu being used at home.
>>
>> Ubuntu is already installed in various companies, institution and at home.
>> Why do you think the market share will increase if there is a server GUI?
>> I think Ubuntu should improve the software that is already there and do
>> "information marketing" on how advanced Ubuntu is. And that it works great
>> in most situations. As Desktop and server, at home and in companies.
>>
>> By the way: there are already a lot of GUIs for various admin tasks. You
>> only need to install them.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> >
>> > Please reply with your thoughts.
>> >
>>
>> I will never understand why a server GUI would improve anything? If you
>> are (also) in Windows system administration you know that a GUI has it's
>> limitations. And even good Windows admins know how to write Windows
>> scripts for automation and need to read a lot of documentation. Knowledge
>> is one of the most important things for a system administrator. Doing
>> things on the command line in Ubuntu gives you the chance to get this
>> knowledge.
>>
>> But that's just my IMHO.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list
>> Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
>
>
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>



-- 
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Pēteris Krišjānis

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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Ryan Dwyer]

I agree that all networks should be managed by an experienced administrator,
but unfortunately a lot of them aren't. We can't change that. Many
businesses just want something that works and is easy to manage, even if
there are "issues" such as no backups. The target audience is the general
public, and the general public isn't going to know how to configure servers
using a CLI. They want something simple that gets the job done, and they're
who we need to cater for.

The GUI isn't what sells the product but it plays a key part. What sells the
product is the fact that it's easy to use plus the other benefits I wrote
about which Windows cannot/does not provide (images, auditing, centralised
management of all installed software).

Linux usage in my town is absolutely minimal. In my town you can enrol in a
course for Windows but not Linux. Our town's computer callout team are
skilled in Windows only. They set up Windows networks because it's easy. No
amount of improving packages and marketing will make these people switch to
a CLI environment.

No amount of marketing will make regular people switch to Linux on their
home desktop. Regular people don't even know what an operating system is.
You need to throw it in their face, make them experience it, and the
workplace is the best way to do this. They use it at work, then they say "I
want what they have" and it goes from there.

-Ryan

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Michael Zoet  wrote:

>
> > Hi everyone,
> > What are your thoughts on having a server product that competes with
> > Windows
> > Server? Something which has a GUI, is very easy to manage and works best
> > with Ubuntu workstations.
> >
>
> Such topics pop up every now and then on various Ubuntu mailinglists.
>
> I think it is a big mistake to believe server administration is easy when
> you have a GUI. I have seen a lot of small companies networks where they
> used Windows and had no admin because everything is so easy... Most of
> them even had no working backup...
> In my opinion most companies need admins with knowledge, not another GUI
> people can misconfigure their networks.
>
> ...
>
> > I believe targeting this market is the key to having Ubuntu take over the
> > desktop. Businesses will use Ubuntu servers and workstations if there are
> > great benefits over Windows equivalents. This results in everyday
> > employees
> > experiencing Ubuntu at work, which leads to Ubuntu being used at home.
>
> Ubuntu is already installed in various companies, institution and at home.
> Why do you think the market share will increase if there is a server GUI?
> I think Ubuntu should improve the software that is already there and do
> "information marketing" on how advanced Ubuntu is. And that it works great
> in most situations. As Desktop and server, at home and in companies.
>
> By the way: there are already a lot of GUIs for various admin tasks. You
> only need to install them.
>
> ...
>
> >
> > Please reply with your thoughts.
> >
>
> I will never understand why a server GUI would improve anything? If you
> are (also) in Windows system administration you know that a GUI has it's
> limitations. And even good Windows admins know how to write Windows
> scripts for automation and need to read a lot of documentation. Knowledge
> is one of the most important things for a system administrator. Doing
> things on the command line in Ubuntu gives you the chance to get this
> knowledge.
>
> But that's just my IMHO.
>
>
>
>
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> Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
>
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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Michael Zoet]

> Hi everyone,
> What are your thoughts on having a server product that competes with
> Windows
> Server? Something which has a GUI, is very easy to manage and works best
> with Ubuntu workstations.
>

Such topics pop up every now and then on various Ubuntu mailinglists.

I think it is a big mistake to believe server administration is easy when
you have a GUI. I have seen a lot of small companies networks where they
used Windows and had no admin because everything is so easy... Most of
them even had no working backup...
In my opinion most companies need admins with knowledge, not another GUI
people can misconfigure their networks.

...

> I believe targeting this market is the key to having Ubuntu take over the
> desktop. Businesses will use Ubuntu servers and workstations if there are
> great benefits over Windows equivalents. This results in everyday
> employees
> experiencing Ubuntu at work, which leads to Ubuntu being used at home.

Ubuntu is already installed in various companies, institution and at home.
Why do you think the market share will increase if there is a server GUI?
I think Ubuntu should improve the software that is already there and do
"information marketing" on how advanced Ubuntu is. And that it works great
in most situations. As Desktop and server, at home and in companies.

By the way: there are already a lot of GUIs for various admin tasks. You
only need to install them.

...

>
> Please reply with your thoughts.
>

I will never understand why a server GUI would improve anything? If you
are (also) in Windows system administration you know that a GUI has it's
limitations. And even good Windows admins know how to write Windows
scripts for automation and need to read a lot of documentation. Knowledge
is one of the most important things for a system administrator. Doing
things on the command line in Ubuntu gives you the chance to get this
knowledge.

But that's just my IMHO.




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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Mohammed Bassit]

> On 20/10/09 15:24, Ryan Dwyer wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > What are your thoughts on having a server product that competes with
> > Windows Server? Something which has a GUI, is very easy to manage and
> > works best with Ubuntu workstations.
> >
> > It could have benefits over Windows, such as:
> > - Ability to store disk images on the server, then boot workstations
> > with a live CD and image them in just a few minutes. That way your
> > workstation is already configured with the software your business uses.
> > - Ability to audit information automatically. Ubuntu workstations
> > could send the output of lshw and dpkg -l to the server, which keeps
> > track of it all. Auditing is important in every business. I don't know
> > of any automated way to do this in Windows without paying for third
> > party software.
> > - Ability to run commands on all/selected workstations, such as
> > installing new software. The server could connect to Ubuntu
> > workstations using SSH or through a network agent.
> >
> > My theory is that people trying Ubuntu Server are probably Windows
> > administrators and find it daunting that there's no GUI. If they don't
> > turn away then, they turn away when they discover there's 48 chapters
> > of Samba documentation to read through just to get a functional domain
> > server. Very few administrators would see this as a viable replacement
> > for their Windows server.
> >
> > I believe targeting this market is the key to having Ubuntu take over
> > the desktop. Businesses will use Ubuntu servers and workstations if
> > there are great benefits over Windows equivalents. This results in
> > everyday employees experiencing Ubuntu at work, which leads to Ubuntu
> > being used at home.
> >
> > Someone created a wiki page with similar ideas but it appears to have
> > been abandoned: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDomainManagementServer
> >
> > Please reply with your thoughts.
> >
> > -Ryan
> I think this is a fantastic notion.
> 
> I think that EduBuntu does most if not all of this.
> 
> I think that if we could build a drop in Domain Controller that also
> speaks to Windows machines, we'd be on a winner.
> 
> Many years ago (when I was still running Debian), I wrote an article
> about this: http://itmaze.com.au/articles/cio/
> 
> -- 
> Onno Benschop
> 
> Connected via Bigpond NextG at S31°54'06" - E115°50'39" (Yokine, WA)
> --
> ()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno..
> |>>?..EBCDIC for Onno..
> --- -. -. ---   ..Morse for Onno..
> 
> ITmaze   -   ABN: 56 178 057 063   -  ph: 04 1219    -   
> o...@itmaze.com.au
> 
> 

Brainstorm people ! Brainstorm !!!

http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com


-- 
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File perms on console login

[Shentino]

Hey all, new member here.  Using ubuntu on my desktop since Feisty after
Fedora crapped out due to a bad driver.
Anyway, to get straight to the chase...

One issue that's been a thorn in my side is dealing with file perms while
logging in on console.

Somewhat recently I uploaded a workaround patch to mc to allow cons.saver to
access /dev/vcsa* as needed.

But that begs the question of what I think is a larger issue.

What package, if any, has the responsibility of updating file permissions on
/dev/vcs(|a)X when you login on ttyX?

My guess would be something that hooks in with PAM but I could be completely
wrong.
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Re: Ubuntu Domain Server

[Onno Benschop]

On 20/10/09 15:24, Ryan Dwyer wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> What are your thoughts on having a server product that competes with
> Windows Server? Something which has a GUI, is very easy to manage and
> works best with Ubuntu workstations.
>
> It could have benefits over Windows, such as:
> - Ability to store disk images on the server, then boot workstations
> with a live CD and image them in just a few minutes. That way your
> workstation is already configured with the software your business uses.
> - Ability to audit information automatically. Ubuntu workstations
> could send the output of lshw and dpkg -l to the server, which keeps
> track of it all. Auditing is important in every business. I don't know
> of any automated way to do this in Windows without paying for third
> party software.
> - Ability to run commands on all/selected workstations, such as
> installing new software. The server could connect to Ubuntu
> workstations using SSH or through a network agent.
>
> My theory is that people trying Ubuntu Server are probably Windows
> administrators and find it daunting that there's no GUI. If they don't
> turn away then, they turn away when they discover there's 48 chapters
> of Samba documentation to read through just to get a functional domain
> server. Very few administrators would see this as a viable replacement
> for their Windows server.
>
> I believe targeting this market is the key to having Ubuntu take over
> the desktop. Businesses will use Ubuntu servers and workstations if
> there are great benefits over Windows equivalents. This results in
> everyday employees experiencing Ubuntu at work, which leads to Ubuntu
> being used at home.
>
> Someone created a wiki page with similar ideas but it appears to have
> been abandoned: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDomainManagementServer
>
> Please reply with your thoughts.
>
> -Ryan
I think this is a fantastic notion.

I think that EduBuntu does most if not all of this.

I think that if we could build a drop in Domain Controller that also
speaks to Windows machines, we'd be on a winner.

Many years ago (when I was still running Debian), I wrote an article
about this: http://itmaze.com.au/articles/cio/

-- 
Onno Benschop

Connected via Bigpond NextG at S31°54'06" - E115°50'39" (Yokine, WA)
--
()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno..
|>>?..EBCDIC for Onno..
--- -. -. ---   ..Morse for Onno..

ITmaze   -   ABN: 56 178 057 063   -  ph: 04 1219    -   o...@itmaze.com.au


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Ubuntu Domain Server

[Ryan Dwyer]

Hi everyone,
What are your thoughts on having a server product that competes with Windows
Server? Something which has a GUI, is very easy to manage and works best
with Ubuntu workstations.

It could have benefits over Windows, such as:
- Ability to store disk images on the server, then boot workstations with a
live CD and image them in just a few minutes. That way your workstation is
already configured with the software your business uses.
- Ability to audit information automatically. Ubuntu workstations could send
the output of lshw and dpkg -l to the server, which keeps track of it all.
Auditing is important in every business. I don't know of any automated way
to do this in Windows without paying for third party software.
- Ability to run commands on all/selected workstations, such as installing
new software. The server could connect to Ubuntu workstations using SSH or
through a network agent.

My theory is that people trying Ubuntu Server are probably Windows
administrators and find it daunting that there's no GUI. If they don't turn
away then, they turn away when they discover there's 48 chapters of Samba
documentation to read through just to get a functional domain server. Very
few administrators would see this as a viable replacement for their Windows
server.

I believe targeting this market is the key to having Ubuntu take over the
desktop. Businesses will use Ubuntu servers and workstations if there are
great benefits over Windows equivalents. This results in everyday employees
experiencing Ubuntu at work, which leads to Ubuntu being used at home.

Someone created a wiki page with similar ideas but it appears to have been
abandoned: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDomainManagementServer

Please reply with your thoughts.

-Ryan
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