Re: multiple reports of same bug-needs fixing
Jordon Bedwell wrote: >On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 8:49 PM, Phillip Susi wrote: >> Do you consider repeating a question on IRC once every minute >spamming? Every 5 minutes? Most people would say yes. You take that >time out to once an hour and in that time frame new people often join >the channel, or come back from AFK and tend not to read everything that >was said while they were gone, so repeating after an hour is likely to >get someone's attention that otherwise would not have noticed. > >On IRC I would not. I don't know how subjective that POV is, we see >repeats on development IRC's all the time, often not that spread apart >and nobody gets bothered by it. That is on... #ruby, #ruby-lang, >#python and others. If it was email I still would not, as I would not >see the 'repeats', my mail client, as well as the service I use >automatically hides accidental or perpetual repeats as to reduce >clutter. I would hope that most Gmail users also agree since they >have the same feature except it doesn't hide them, just minimizes them >(but my client actually hides them.) > >The time frame is subjective though, an hour could be a day, so... by >that... he did not 'spam' as you put it. > >> On a mailing list, the audience isn't changing frequently and the >messages generally are all read so if nobody replies, it is probably >because either nobody knows, or nobody cares. Often times people go 24 >hours or more before catching up on reading the list, so that isn't >even enough time for everyone to have seen your message, and had a >chance to reply. Given those two factors, repeating yourself every day >is a waste of everyone's time. > >Not caring is one of the big problems I see quite often, and as >somebody who has an Ubuntu email, if you don't care we have bigger >problems to deal with other than bugs that are considered unimportant >(as another put it) and never responded to. Big project is not an >excuse to at least respond. Picking your battles is entirely >different then knowing and acknowledging future battles. I think you >wasted your own time (while blaming him for 'wasting your time' by >responding with something other then a proper answer. What I am >saying is you've created your own inefficiency by responding at all >and then blame him for creating one too. > >Perhaps the more prudent to (when somebody files a bug) tell the user >in the success message "if this ticket is not responded to within 2 >weeks please ping a developer via [insert mailing list email]" and >also (which is quite easy) do the same to users who don't post, >stating something to the effect of "this ticket is still rather new >and less then two weeks old, please do not ping any developers" and >"this ticket is older than two weeks, if you are experiencing this >problem please ping a developer" This would curve this so called spam, >somewhat. People will still ignore it, such is life, but being more >intuitive from your bug system would ultimately create more >efficiency. > >There are even other ideas, such as just creating a ping button on the >tracker itself one that would first ping bugsquad and then after it's >been confirmed or otherwise pings a developer or the team behind the >package or feature. This would keep people off the mailing list... >And you could even limit it globally to two weeks or whatever. > >That said... If your email client and you aren't efficient enough to >figure out that they are repeats we are starting to see why you can't >respond in a timely fashion. Though I still find it ironic you state >it's a waste of your time for him to do this yet you wasted your own >time by telling him he wasted your time. Regardless of changing >subjects and changing text in the email one should be able to quickly >deduce it as a repeat and skip over it... by the subject alone. Or even easier, unsubscribe from a list with perceived low signal to noise ratio. I agree that using the word spam was over the top, but that doesn't in turn give you the right to assume developers don't care. We certainly do, but we can't do everything. Multiple posts on the same topic to this list simply don't help. What they cause is developers looking up the unsubscribe instructions. It is a simple fact that if you want developers to participate on this list, then it's up to you to make it a place they want to participate. AFAICT, most developers don't because they got tired of the tone from many (not all) non- developers. We don't need more ways for people to clamor for attention to get their pet bug fixed. We need more people fixing things. BTW, other than commercial support, the other way to get more attention paid to your problems is to get involved in the project. Even if you aren't up to being a developer, Ubuntu is big enough that anyone can contribute if they care to. I certainly do pay more attention to issues raised by people I know are active in the project. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing l
Re: multiple reports of same bug-needs fixing
On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 8:49 PM, Phillip Susi wrote: > Do you consider repeating a question on IRC once every minute spamming? > Every 5 minutes? Most people would say yes. You take that time out to once > an hour and in that time frame new people often join the channel, or come > back from AFK and tend not to read everything that was said while they were > gone, so repeating after an hour is likely to get someone's attention that > otherwise would not have noticed. On IRC I would not. I don't know how subjective that POV is, we see repeats on development IRC's all the time, often not that spread apart and nobody gets bothered by it. That is on... #ruby, #ruby-lang, #python and others. If it was email I still would not, as I would not see the 'repeats', my mail client, as well as the service I use automatically hides accidental or perpetual repeats as to reduce clutter. I would hope that most Gmail users also agree since they have the same feature except it doesn't hide them, just minimizes them (but my client actually hides them.) The time frame is subjective though, an hour could be a day, so... by that... he did not 'spam' as you put it. > On a mailing list, the audience isn't changing frequently and the messages > generally are all read so if nobody replies, it is probably because either > nobody knows, or nobody cares. Often times people go 24 hours or more before > catching up on reading the list, so that isn't even enough time for everyone > to have seen your message, and had a chance to reply. Given those two > factors, repeating yourself every day is a waste of everyone's time. Not caring is one of the big problems I see quite often, and as somebody who has an Ubuntu email, if you don't care we have bigger problems to deal with other than bugs that are considered unimportant (as another put it) and never responded to. Big project is not an excuse to at least respond. Picking your battles is entirely different then knowing and acknowledging future battles. I think you wasted your own time (while blaming him for 'wasting your time' by responding with something other then a proper answer. What I am saying is you've created your own inefficiency by responding at all and then blame him for creating one too. Perhaps the more prudent to (when somebody files a bug) tell the user in the success message "if this ticket is not responded to within 2 weeks please ping a developer via [insert mailing list email]" and also (which is quite easy) do the same to users who don't post, stating something to the effect of "this ticket is still rather new and less then two weeks old, please do not ping any developers" and "this ticket is older than two weeks, if you are experiencing this problem please ping a developer" This would curve this so called spam, somewhat. People will still ignore it, such is life, but being more intuitive from your bug system would ultimately create more efficiency. There are even other ideas, such as just creating a ping button on the tracker itself one that would first ping bugsquad and then after it's been confirmed or otherwise pings a developer or the team behind the package or feature. This would keep people off the mailing list... And you could even limit it globally to two weeks or whatever. That said... If your email client and you aren't efficient enough to figure out that they are repeats we are starting to see why you can't respond in a timely fashion. Though I still find it ironic you state it's a waste of your time for him to do this yet you wasted your own time by telling him he wasted your time. Regardless of changing subjects and changing text in the email one should be able to quickly deduce it as a repeat and skip over it... by the subject alone. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: multiple reports of same bug-needs fixing
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 06/01/2012 08:47 PM, Jordon Bedwell wrote: > On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Phillip Susi wrote: >> On 06/01/2012 03:59 PM, Sam Smith wrote: >> Once is fine. A second time after a week or three is too. Three times in >> as many days is the definition of spam. > > What bad dictionary do you use? Or are these just subjective semantics? Obviously it's subjective. Do you consider repeating a question on IRC once every minute spamming? Every 5 minutes? Most people would say yes. You take that time out to once an hour and in that time frame new people often join the channel, or come back from AFK and tend not to read everything that was said while they were gone, so repeating after an hour is likely to get someone's attention that otherwise would not have noticed. On a mailing list, the audience isn't changing frequently and the messages generally are all read so if nobody replies, it is probably because either nobody knows, or nobody cares. Often times people go 24 hours or more before catching up on reading the list, so that isn't even enough time for everyone to have seen your message, and had a chance to reply. Given those two factors, repeating yourself every day is a waste of everyone's time. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJPyXEqAAoJEJrBOlT6nu75G10IAK7ImnqXpLf4BWgwDtfkvgl6 ESgsCkaQfBrDsS01rZh4YR/wmfMd1HjyO3rPVWYQyuRpMocYfAmXjer9I1NzfeNt LxILsEwIje3kZ2hXGtVpmnw4szZ0tioSKV7aUhpwJRi99QUeutktmDmA0WMM1uXx GReWXWQjBcZRWEg2FFmxIiLhOo1Sp9XbxFQ8sTvEuKE40Kh/23shCYXgnjWqnCXf oR7uCuYHlA7rMmOXfIWyejU7j3ouVhf8zkAVRf8FZ1e3EbZTLTDs02yljUMuehAU O++Zl/1TNPX7sMdT+jDmvmHvv9LoaPRSyUJafrMTUMVhe7VAp6oPuA18g4MOERE= =SBMr -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: multiple reports of same bug-needs fixing
On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Phillip Susi wrote: > On 06/01/2012 03:59 PM, Sam Smith wrote: > Once is fine. A second time after a week or three is too. Three times in as > many days is the definition of spam. What bad dictionary do you use? Or are these just subjective semantics? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: multiple reports of same bug-needs fixing
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 06/01/2012 03:59 PM, Sam Smith wrote: > > She sent one email on the 29th asking for feedback, info, help. > received no response. > > She sent a second email on the next day. received no responses > addressing her email. > > She sent a 3rd email on the third day. Still received no response, > just ridicule and accusations from devs that she's spamming. > > I'd hardly call 3 emails over the course of 3 days spam! Once is fine. A second time after a week or three is too. Three times in as many days is the definition of spam. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEbBAEBAgAGBQJPyV4EAAoJEJrBOlT6nu75jLgH+J3/fv9QlAlT+W91thlhCALL hOzBB8pw1ihFiXWLFd2BIv8N/ol3IezukaRcfxG0aC5Pk9FHFbwg2z/GKbcSD5BI BjUQ848Z/jxLt4SJUwCa8bJt6It88HtMUJCMSf6kb0maJ91vCHUw5yvkdPZMsUPu sxnqXTJ9wJRPwL8K8LawhqgA9lc7JB4B5nyLzw2vBmjYbywOnzU3jlKYWS3XS48r 4vU5Q3v9Gvkbe5gNWbhKHVsVGtvxZzAZbGX21IUYbw0elp6pQntiwbChRvjgYE/Q pbfuSLbydTkVOnhV5tUeEa8tGwq6XvJ4Fuf9i4d/TLiWVtXLm6BLPHdJb+hNwA== =G5x7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: multiple reports of same bug-needs fixing
Sam Smith writes: > I'd hardly call 3 emails over the course of 3 days spam! I definitely understand frustration over unfixed bugs -- I've felt plenty of that myself. But on a big project, you have to think about how things scale. What if everybody with an unfixed bug mailed this list once a day? The list would consist of nothing but those repeated emails, and it wouldn't be usable for anything. I don't know what the answer is for getting bugs fixed faster. But sending daily repeats to mailing lists -- especially lists that don't even have many Ubuntu developers following them -- isn't it. ...Akkana -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: multiple reports of same bug-needs fixing
She sent one email on the 29th asking for feedback, info, help. received no response. She sent a second email on the next day. received no responses addressing her email. She sent a 3rd email on the third day. Still received no response, just ridicule and accusations from devs that she's spamming. I'd hardly call 3 emails over the course of 3 days spam! I think she's got legitimate thing here. I get this attitude a lot too from people who are supposed to have "ubuntu". It ain't right. > Subject: RE: multiple reports of same bug-needs fixing > From: rodney.da...@ubuntu.com > To: smick...@hotmail.com > CC: jbi...@ubuntu.com; ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 15:10:04 -0400 > > Ditën e Fri, 01/06/2012 më 14.25 -0400, Sam Smith ka shkruar: > > In defense of Lindsey, > > > > I think it is a fair request that devs take a look at these issues. > > Looking at the bug reports Lindsey linked, those reports came in > > during early Oneiric. They should have been addressed for Precise. And > > the fact that the rc.local bug exists in an LTS and still hasn't been > > addressed is a reasonable criticism. It's reasonable for someone to > > seek feedback from the devs on it. Just saying. > > There's a difference between seeking feedback or asking for some > help, and continuously badgering a mailing list for a set of bugs > to be fixed. > > It is reasonable to ask for help. It is not reasonable to spam a list > with multiple threads on the exact same topic. > > > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: multiple reports of same bug-needs fixing
In defense of Lindsey, I think it is a fair request that devs take a look at these issues. Looking at the bug reports Lindsey linked, those reports came in during early Oneiric. They should have been addressed for Precise. And the fact that the rc.local bug exists in an LTS and still hasn't been addressed is a reasonable criticism. It's reasonable for someone to seek feedback from the devs on it. Just saying. > From: jbi...@ubuntu.com > Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 19:41:09 -0400 > Subject: Re: multiple reports of same bug-needs fixing > To: lindtine...@hotmail.com > CC: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > > On 31 May 2012 18:58, Lindsey Augustine wrote: > > All these bugs describe the same problem: Max Brightness at boot. There are > > a lot of people with this problem. > > > > Will the developers please address these reports? > > Please stop spamming this list. It is spam to post basically the same > thing three days in a row. Repeating yourself won't help the bug get > fixed any sooner. > > Jeremy > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: multiple reports of same bug-needs fixing
On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Lindsey Augustine wrote: > I'm a solitary home user. Is there a paid support path that I can follow? > The support paths I found all were very expensive. hundreds of dollars. The one I found after a quick search starts at 105 USD [1] (per desktop per year). While expensive, this is still somewhat cheaper than an "unsupported" Windows license would be (a copy of Win7-Pro runs around 300 USD, which is approximately 3 years of Ubuntu support for a single user). It is expensive, but not unreasonably so. Evan [1] http://www.ubuntu.com/business/desktop#services -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: multiple reports of same bug-needs fixing
I'm a solitary home user. Is there a paid support path that I can follow? The support paths I found all were very expensive. hundreds of dollars. It was not my intention to spam. But my attempts on the forum, AskUbuntu, and my initial emails here all asking for information got no help, indeed little response other than posts describing how many other people have the same problem. None of my initial emails here, where I asked for ideas, advice, apprisal that devs are aware of the bug and are address it or not addressing it, possible solutions, etc, went unanswered. So I kept asking. Thank you for finally respsonding. I do think it is not right that a serious bug exists like this and that work arounds that can address the bug (eg, rc.local) suffer from bugs of their own that prevent moderation/partial-fix of the problem. This kind of thing should be a priority to address at least one of these bugs considering this. If nothing else because it's an LTS, which people count on to be stable. I do appreciate all the work that ubuntu devs do. Yet I think this is something that needs to be addressed for Precise. An update to address these issues or some kind of fix that developers can post or answer on AskUbuntu that will temporarily resolve the problem. I have an AskUbuntu question open on it. It would be great to learn of a solution to moderate the problem. Nothing I've tried with rc.local has worked because of the rc.local bug. > From: ubu...@kitterman.com > To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Subject: Re: multiple reports of same bug-needs fixing > Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 20:45:48 -0400 > > On Thursday, May 31, 2012 02:00:21 PM Paul Graydon wrote: > > On 05/31/2012 01:41 PM, Jeremy Bicha wrote: > > > On 31 May 2012 18:58, Lindsey Augustine wrote: > > >> All these bugs describe the same problem: Max Brightness at boot. There > > >> are > > >> a lot of people with this problem. > > >> > > >> Will the developers please address these reports? > > > > > > Please stop spamming this list. It is spam to post basically the same > > > thing three days in a row. Repeating yourself won't help the bug get > > > fixed any sooner. > > > > > > Jeremy > > > > Whilst I agree with you that the repeated spamming is annoying and > > shouldn't be happening (and is possibly counter-productive at best), > > it's worth pointing out that the earliest one of those bug reports was > > triaged around 6 months ago by pitti, and there has been absolutely no > > official communication on the ticket, not even a brief message. As far > > as people know what to them seems a trivial bug means squat diddly to > > Ubuntu, and no one is interested in fixing it. Is it really surprising > > that after 6 months people might be a little frustrated and resorting in > > this? > > It's quite reasonable that people get frustrated, but 'resorting to this' > isn't productive. There are more bugs than there are people to fix them and > in > a community project like Ubuntu screaming loudly doesn't help. It is, in > fact > (as you suggest is a possibility) generally counter productive. > > If someone really wants an escalation path to get some attention on a bug, > they should go buy a commercial support contract from Canonical (they aren't > very expensive in the scheme of things) and complain through that path. I'd > imagine there's more attention being paid to bugs that customers complain > about. > > Scott K > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
