Re: possible to include sampling_down_factor in Ubuntu?

[Daniel Hollocher]

On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 5:09 AM, Robie Basak  wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 03:21:49PM -0500, Daniel Hollocher wrote:
> > So again, how could this be "fixed" in Ubuntu?  If there are hardware
> > specific optimal values for sampling_down_factor, how would that get
> > included into Ubuntu?
>
> Am I right in understanding that this value can be changed at runtime?
> Or is it a kernel compile-time option?
>
> If runtime, then presumably there would have to be some userspace logic
> that detects what your system is and maps that to a preferred value.
> Perhaps it would examine /proc/cpuinfo or run dmidecode or something. Is
> this accurate?
>
> If so, then would a sensible first step be to implement this command in
> a userspace package?
>
> AFAICS this command would be the hard part, but doesn't require thought
> about integration, since it would be a separate piece anyway.
>
> Then the command might be extended to adjust the tunable itself with an
> option, and then the packaging might be extended to add an init script
> that does this on startup.
>


Thanks Robie,
You are correct that this is a run time option.  I think I can come up with
something simple that connects with the power management.  That made sense,
the more I thought about it, because who really is going to do a lot of hw
specific testing with this (much less any testing).

Thanks again,
Dan
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possible to include sampling_down_factor in Ubuntu?

[Daniel Hollocher]

Hi all,
sampling_down_factor is a tunable for the ondemand frequency governor.
 Intuitively, higher values of sampling_down_factor make ondemand act more
like performance.  For those computers where ondemand has a performance
penalty compared to performance, this is good, with the obvious downside of
higher power consumption.

Where does this performance penalty come from?  Some of it is from the
basic operation of ondemand, the checks that it does, and the lag between
when a heavy cpu load hits and when ondemand actually turns up the clock
frequency.  Another, larger, performance penalty can come when (under load)
ondemand seems to resonate the cpu frequency instead of keeping it high.
 My theory is that there is some insidious issue where the logic of
ondemand sets up resonance with certain hardware specific setups instead of
properly detecting the system as being under load.

Question of this email: If the best value for sampling_down_factor is
hardware specific, how would it be included into Ubuntu?  Is it a kernel
issue? distro issue? upstart issue? or something else?

A few years ago, when I first noticed this issue, I tested a performance
drop of about %30.  Today it seems to be around %10.  I found a value of
about 400 for sampling_down_factor wiped out the performance penalty of
ondemand for me.

Here is an old bug report (
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/862785) from someone
else who had significant performance issues.

Here is a relatively recent analysis that takes into account power usage (
http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?86322-Tuning-pre-3-12-ondemand-governor-version-2-now-with-energy-efficiency)
 There, a value of 7 was determined to be the sweet spot.

On a different webpage that I don't have in front of me, I saw a comment
saying that a value of 200 caused a performance issue, which leads me to
believe that intermediate values could cause other unforeseen resonance
issues on certain hardware setups.

So again, how could this be "fixed" in Ubuntu?  If there are hardware
specific optimal values for sampling_down_factor, how would that get
included into Ubuntu?

One thought I had would be to just have some conservative values tied to
the powersaving: a relatively low one for anything on battery mode, and a
relatively high one for everything else, where power usage is not a concern.
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Re: Planning to create a new distro of Ubuntu

[Daniel Hollocher]

>
>
> > Do you think that Linux Mint is a vulnerable system ? Really ?
>
> https://github.com/linuxmint/mintupdate/blob/master/usr/lib/linuxmint/mintUpdate/rules
>
> this is the list of packages it will never update, instead of just
> integrating changes properly with the packagaes in the ubuntu archive
> they instead suppress doing (security) updates at all for them.
>

 It looks like that is not quite the case.  Packages that are marked as 4
and 5 are not updated by default, whereas 1-3 are.  This is a setting which
can be changed:
http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=111929

Still probably insecure, but I understand they are trying to balance
between security and regressions.
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Re: Planning to create a new distro of Ubuntu

[Daniel Hollocher]

>
>
> Officially called Ubuntu MATE Remix, this will integrate the MATE Desktop
> Environment to the power and stability of Ubuntu. In fact, I already had a
> working prototype based on Saucy Salamander. You can download the
> prototype at https://shared.com/unqjauvtrj
>

What's the difference between this and Linux Mint MATE?
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Re: 13.10 (Saucy Salamander) Beta 1 Released!

[Daniel Hollocher]

> Similar to raring cycle, ubuntu desktop & server & core are not
> participating / pushing out Beta 1 image.
> To see which flavour participated see:
>
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SaucySalamander/Beta1
>

...

Please see the details on the release schedule:
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SaucySalamander/ReleaseSchedule


 Small request, can the beta1 page be linked from the release schedule
page?  It used to be that way, and it was convenient.  though, on my part,
I suppose I should subscribe to devel-announce.
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Re: disappointing to see Ubuntu not recommended cause of data leaks/sharing

[Daniel Hollocher]

On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Benjamin Kerensa wrote:

>
> It is no surprise now that Canonical is proposing replacing Firefox
> with Chromium which is also not considered a privacy focused browser
> by PRISM Break while Firefox is.


 The only reason I could find on the prism website is that Chromium
automatically updates extensions.  Is that really the issue?
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Re: Privacy features in Touch (cyanogenmod)?

[Daniel Hollocher]

Hi Matthew,


> This is poor design. Of all the time you spend with an app, the moment
> you're about to install it is the moment when you know the least about
> it. So it's the moment when you're least able to make informed
> decisions about granting those privileges.
>
 ...

> On Ubuntu, an app will request a privilege during runtime.


What I see you saying is that by the time I've just begun to use the app, I
will have a better sense of what the app does, and therefor know what
privileges to grant.

But that isn't the case for me.  Once I've started the app, I'm still
trying to figure out what it does (even a simple game).  So I would just
allow all privileges given that I don't know how to make a better decision
and I at least want to make sure that the app works.  I think in general,
once I have decided to start installing an app, I've also decided that I
trust the app.

So, here is an alternative: before installation.  Have the needed
permissions displayed on the installation page, along side the ratings and
forum discussions and app description.  That way, if there is some
permission that doesn't make sense, I can go straight to the comments
section to see any discussion about it. (and make permissions something I
can search against, that way I can filter away unwanted permission takers).

The main point is that I don't think there is much difference between
asking when I am trying to install the app, and when I am trying to run the
app.

Dan

PS - I think there is a wider issue of incorrectly assuming that giving
users finer grained control over privacy will grant greater privacy.  For
some users, it has the opposite affect: it overwhelms them with difficult
questions, leading to "yes to all" types of behavior.
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Re: Is this so hard to fix? Or important?

[Daniel Hollocher]

On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 11:56 AM, Andrew Starr-Bochicchio <
a.star...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 10:25 AM, Rodney Dawes
>  wrote:
> > Furthermore, as already stated, this is a bug in eog (or perhaps
> > gdk-pixbuf), if it
> > can't open an image file where the extension doesn't match the content.
>
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/eog/+bug/172416
> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=490067
>
>
Hey, I looked into this and found those bug reports as well.  FWIW, the
last piece of the puzzle is that eog is abandoned:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_GNOME

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Re: Support f2fs

[Daniel Hollocher]

Here is a relevant bug report:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gparted/+bug/1157700



On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 6:54 AM, Anca Emanuel wrote:

> Any reason to delay gparted 0.16.1 ?
> or libblkid 2.23 ?
>
>
> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2137837&page=2&p=12628312#post12628312
>
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Re: Adobe Flash Broken For Obvious Case?

[Daniel Hollocher]

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 5:30 AM, Jordon Bedwell wrote:

> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 4:10 AM, Ma Xiaojun  wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > ( I know this can be made into a bug report. )
> >
> > On 13.04 64bit with Adobe Flash installed.
> >
> > Go to youtube.com, play any video, right-click and select "Settings..."
> > Then a dialog pops up, but it doesn't respond to user click at all;
> > the only way to "close" it is refresh the page...
> >
> > I know Adobe may be the one to blame. But can we workaround in our side?
>
> There is no "may be to blame"... they are to blame since it's their
> software.  Workarounds create messes that people have to clean up
> later so I would vote no and I wouldn't expect a fix from Adobe either
> considering Flash on Linux is dead again unless you have Chrome.
>
>
Just so other's know what's being talked about: only security updates are
being provided for the firefox version of flash.  Google-chrome has the
latest version.  (I'm not sure what chromium has, but I suspect it may be
using the firefox flash.)  For some that means flash-dead-on-linux, some
not.
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Re: Specialized kernel/base system for VM's/VE's

[Daniel Hollocher]

On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 2:17 AM, Emmet Hikory  wrote:
> Enrico Weigelt wrote:
>> is anyone currently working on optimized/minimized kernel
>> and base packages for VM's ?
>>
>> My goal is having a really minimized base system for VMs
>> and VEs, which don't have anything that's really needed
>> there (eg. VEs dont need all the kernel related stuff,
>> VMs just only those parts which are really required for
>> running in an virtio-based environment, etc, etc).
>
> I suspect you're looking for the linux-virtual metapackage,
> and dependencies thereof for your kernel.

I don't know the answer, but it looks like linux-virtual just depends
on the regular kernel:

$ apt-cache depends linux-virtual
linux-virtual
  Depends: linux-image-virtual
  Depends: linux-headers-virtual
$ apt-cache depends linux-image-virtual linux-headers-virtual
linux-image-virtual
  Depends: linux-image-3.5.0-15-generic
linux-headers-virtual
  Depends: linux-headers-generic

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Re: chromium no longer maintained

[Daniel Hollocher]

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 1:52 PM, Damian Ivanov  wrote:
> http://www.webupd8.org/2012/09/new-chromium-stable-and-development.html
>

Cool.  So that will allow users who would like to use chromium-browser.

It still looks like no one should be using chromium 18 since there
have been a handful of security fixes since that release.  Maybe I
should file a bug?  FWIW:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/chromium-browser/+bug/1045993

For quantal, it looks like version 20 came from debian.  I suspect
that by the time quantal is released, 20 will be just as bad security
wise as 18 is now.


Dan

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Re: chromium no longer maintained

[Daniel Hollocher]

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 6:38 AM, Damian Ivanov  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Jordan, aacually what you describe is not a fork.
>
> "In software engineering, a project fork happens when developers take
> a copy of source code from one software package and start independent
> development on it, creating a distinct piece of software. The term
> often implies not merely a development branch, but a split in the
> developer community, a form of schism.[1]"
>
> The base of Chrome is Chromium
> Chrome = Chromium + other proprietary extensions.


As far as I'm concerned, this is the most correct view.  And for the
purpose of this discussion, they are practically the same.  The issue
here is that version 18 is considered outdated and insecure.  The
version of chromium that we should have right now is 21, whether it be
in the form of chromium-browser or google-chrome.

It would be nice if someone could step up and maintain the
chromium-browser version of chromium, but for whatever reason, that
isn't happening.  Shouldn't the ppas at least be updated to state that
the version held is out of date?  Shouldn't version 18 be removed from
the archive?


Dan

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chromium no longer maintained

[Daniel Hollocher]

why?  (we have 18, but 21 is the latest stable, 19 the latest
supported or something like that [22 is the current beta, 23 is the
current dev])

Something should change.  Version 18 is in the archives and the
various ppas.  As far as I can tell, 18 should not be made available
to users since it is considered outdated.

Anyway, I have no inside knowledge of this issue.  I came upon this
while trying to report a bug, and then it was explained that the
version I was running was terribly outdated.

*shrug*
Dan

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Daniel Hollocher]

If this conversation is to be had, can we take it in a direction that
isn't a flame war?

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Felix Miata  wrote:
> On 2012/08/08 11:25 (GMT-0400) Phillip Susi composed:
>
>
>> On 8/8/2012 11:01 AM, John Moser wrote:
>
>
>>>  Put your mouse pointer in the middle of the screen.
>
>
>>>  Put your mouse somewhere you can grab it.
>
>
>>>  Now reach out and grab the mouse.
>
>
>>>  Where does the pointer end up?
>
>
>> It ends up in the middle of the screen; if you pick up the mouse off
>> of the pad, it isn't going to move.
>
>
>>>  If it winds up in the top right of your screen, it seems you're
>>>  right handed.  Your arm just goes that way, and your wrist
>>>  straightens to support the movement.  It flexes outward more easily
>>>  than inward, too.
>
>
>> What are you talking about?  If you are left handed, then you will
>> want to put the mouse on the left of the keyboard where you can hold
>> it with your left hand.
>
>
> You're under 40, right? Under 30 too? 20?
>
>
>>>  UNITY.  Puts the control box (close, minimize, etc) in the top
>>>  left. Of the entire screen.
>
>
>>>  GNOME SHELL.  The thing you have to hit to do anything is in the
>>>  top left corner.  Want to log out?  That's in the top right,
>>>  fastest thing you'll be able to hit ever.
>
>
>> Which hand you prefer to hold the mouse with has no bearing on how
>> fast you can click anything on the screen, nor does where it is on the
>> screen.  Moving the cursor to the left or to the right is done with
>> equal ease no matter which hand you favor.
>
>
> We all must navigate to a clicking point before clicking. You seem to be
> assuming moving a mouse pointer is always easy. It isn't. Put on your carpal
> tunnel or arthritis gloves and try it. Even just using the wrong hand might
> give you some idea. Maybe the Windows 8 devs have discovered what the OP is
> getting at.
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> words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
>
>  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
>
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>
>
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Re: kernel headers by default revisit...

[Daniel Hollocher]

> I run on the same platform? Do you have to use nVidia's own
> drivers to get the full res?

Yes

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Re: trouble with python-minimal upgrade

[Daniel Hollocher]

> Did you use 'do-release-upgrade' to go to oneiric, or just change
> sources.lists and dist-upgrade? I've had problems with dist-upgrades in
> the past, but things have always gone smoothly with do-release-upgrade.
>

update-manager -d is where I started.  Once it error'd out, I believe
my sources.list where left at oneiric.  From what I remember,
update-manager, do-release-upgrade, aptitude all gave the same error.
I also have the ubuntu-desktop package installed.  So AFAICT, I ran
into this error in a legit way.




>>
>
> Just FYI, dpkg and apt are C(++?) programs. Simple way to tell:
>
> $ file `which dpkg`
> /usr/bin/dpkg: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), 
> dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.24, 
> BuildID[sha1]=0x480c44f57d94c05a2301b5394f4a376b501a31e6, stripped
>
> $ file `which update-manager`
> /usr/bin/update-manager: a /usr/bin/python script, ASCII text executable

cool, new trick.  Thanks!

Dan

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trouble with python-minimal upgrade

[Daniel Hollocher]

Hey folks,
Sorry to ask for support on this list, but I just tried to upgrade to
oneiric, and my computer is in a sorry state.  python-minimal has a
dependency loop problem, and dpkg is complaining more loudly than I'm
used to.

Basically, all the various upgrade commands I have tried result in this:
> E: This installation run will require temporarily removing the essential 
> package python-minimal due to a Conflicts/Pre-> Depends loop. This is often 
> bad, but if you really want to do it, activate the APT::Force-LoopBreak 
> option.
> E: Internal Error, Could not early remove python-minimal

Actually, as I type this email, I made some progress:
sudo dpkg --remove --force-all python-minimal
sudo apt-get install -f
update-manager > partial upgrade.


Anyway, I got a bit nervous there, since I wasn't sure how much apt
and dpkg depended on python to do their work (ie, removing python
might remove my ability to manipulate packages).  No harm no foul at
this point.

Since I wrote this email, I'm sending it.  For those interested
parties, instead of a bug report, treat this like a transient
notification just like you get in the upper right.

Thanks, bye,
Dan


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Re: Brainstorming for UDS-P

[Daniel Hollocher]

>
>
> ubuntu-restricted-extras
>
> Most of the stuff in ubuntu-restricted-extras is either not restricted
> or in partner now.  Perhaps this should be broken out into ubuntu-extras
> and ubuntu-restricted-extras?
>
> Micah
>

Another issue is that it looks like it is pulling in the FOSS version of
java, rather than the restricted version from sun/oracle.  I think that is a
confusing setup.

Maybe this stemmed from the idea that java is open source now, so openjdk
should be the same.  But that isn't true [1].  And I happen to be aware of
more specifically that there are issues with Java2D [2].

[1] http://openjdk.java.net/faq/
[2] http://openjdk.java.net/groups/2d/
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Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install

[Daniel Hollocher]

>>> That is a common misconception. Reinstalling Ubuntu on the same
>>> partition doesn't lose the user's data either.
>>>
>>> A problem that is both real and more interesting, is working out why so
>>> many people have that misconception, and how we can correct it.
>>
>> Is this really a misconception?  I thought there was a point in time
>> that you did need to have a separate /home for what we are talking
>> about.
>
> You needed a separate home for that until Hardy, if memory servers.
> So it's not an ancient feature, but it's not exactly new at this point either.
>
>> Also, do you know how widespread the policy is?  ie, is it Ubuntu
>> only,  debian based distros, or all of linux?
>
> I have no idea. I imagine it's part of Ubiquity, not debian-installer,
> which would make it Ubuntu-specific.

I imagine you would have to make it part of the gui of whatever
installer supports it if you wanted more people to use the feature.
Otherwise, it is a bit too complicated to communicate to people.  You
can't really expect people to follow every precise direction you give
them, and in this case if they don't, they could loose their data.
Maybe you could put a button that offers to reuse an existing
partition layout, clean installing but saving use data.  The button
could go next to the "install side by side" and "use entire disk
options" and maybe scan fstab for the partition layout.

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Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install

[Daniel Hollocher]

> That is a common misconception. Reinstalling Ubuntu on the same
> partition doesn't lose the user's data either.
>
> A problem that is both real and more interesting, is working out why so
> many people have that misconception, and how we can correct it.

Is this really a misconception?  I thought there was a point in time
that you did need to have a separate /home for what we are talking
about.

Also, do you know how widespread the policy is?  ie, is it Ubuntu
only,  debian based distros, or all of linux?

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Re: Maverick Alpha3 +nvidia-96 +updates

[Daniel Hollocher]

FWIW, I heard the problem is that the installers/upgraders will
happily install these broken drivers, leaving your computer unable to
fully boot.  If the drivers just refused to install, there would be
less of an issue.  I'm lucky enough to have a card that uses the
-current driver, but I saw a few folks on IRC with crashed xorg due to
nvidia drivers.

I remember hearing about a fall back mechanism, that would kick in the
nouveau driver, but I then I saw a bug report where it seemed that the
fallback for nvidia was abandoned.  Just wanted to bring that up, just
in case someone was relying upon that to manage these nvidia issues.

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Re: ondemand vs conservative

[Daniel Hollocher]

Thanks folks,
It does sound like it is just a hardware specific bug.  I will take
this upstream.

Dan

On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Phillip Susi  wrote:
> On 9/29/2010 5:05 PM, Daniel Hollocher wrote:
>> Yeah, I saw that.  I think that is also on wikipedia.  So maybe
>> ondemand is for battery usage.  It would still be nice to have
>> conservative for plugged in situations, like a desktop.
>>
>> I did try to google first, I just didn't see a clear answer.
>
> Conservative is supposed to save more power by keeping the frequency
> lower.  Which one is used should make little difference to a cpu bound
> benchmark since both will end up at the max frequency before long.  The
> ondemand should be slightly better since it will hit the max frequency
> faster.
>



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Re: ondemand vs conservative

[Daniel Hollocher]

Yeah, I saw that.  I think that is also on wikipedia.  So maybe
ondemand is for battery usage.  It would still be nice to have
conservative for plugged in situations, like a desktop.

I did try to google first, I just didn't see a clear answer.

Dan

On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals
 wrote:
> Hey,
>
> Google gives me this:
> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_make_use_of_Dynamic_Frequency_Scaling
>
> "The ondemand (available since 2.6.10) and conservative (since 2.6.12)
> are governors based on in kernel implementations of CPU scaling
> algorithms: they scale the CPU frequencies according to the needs
> (like does the userspace frequency scaling daemons, but in kernel).
> They differs in the way they scale up and down. The ondemand governor
> switches to the highest frequency immediately when there is load,
> while the conservative governor increases frequency step by step.
> Likewise they behave the other way round for stepping down frequency
> when the CPU is idle. The conservative governor is good for battery
> powered environments on AMD64 (but may not work on older ThinkPads
> like the T21). Ondemand may not work on older laptops without Enhanced
> SpeedStep due to latency reasons. Anyway, for recent enough Intel CPU,
> ondemand is the one recommended for power efficiency (over userspace,
> and even over "powersave") by the Intel's kernel developer Arjan van
> de Ven"
>
> --
> Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals (RainCT)
> Free Software Developer       363DEAE3
>



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ondemand vs conservative

[Daniel Hollocher]

Hey folks,
Anyone know about the difference between the ondemand vs conservative
frequency governors?  I'm on a core2duo dual core intel type chip, and
I am getting much better performance with conservative selected.  I
first heard about the conservative governor in the context of getting
better flash video performance, but it looks better accross the board
for me.  I will post some kraken benchmarks at the bottom so you can
see what I'm talking about.  I've also vaguely tested with some video
compression, and it looks similar in performance to me.

Should I file a bug against ondemand?  or a bug requesting the default
governor be conservative?  I really don't know.  IMHO, the performance
difference and the non-obviousness of how to change the defaults (it
looks like you have to edit the upstart script) warrant some sort of
change.

Thanks,
Dan


TEST COMPARISONFROM
 TO   DETAILS



** TOTAL **: 1.25x as fast 33744.5ms +/- 2.5%
27033.1ms +/- 1.4% significant



  ai:1.194x as fast 1410.6ms +/- 3.9%
1181.2ms +/- 8.1% significant
astar:   1.194x as fast 1410.6ms +/- 3.9%
1181.2ms +/- 8.1% significant

  audio: 1.25x as fast 13168.3ms +/- 2.4%
10561.9ms +/- 2.0% significant
beat-detection:  1.26x as fast  4669.0ms +/- 3.3%
3704.0ms +/- 3.5% significant
dft: 1.098x as fast 2559.1ms +/- 3.5%
2330.6ms +/- 2.4% significant
fft: 1.30x as fast  4577.2ms +/- 4.8%
3508.8ms +/- 2.3% significant
oscillator:  1.34x as fast  1363.0ms +/- 2.0%
1018.5ms +/- 3.3% significant

  imaging:   1.25x as fast 13957.9ms +/- 4.8%
11158.0ms +/- 2.2% significant
gaussian-blur:   1.29x as fast  6846.8ms +/- 9.6%
5296.9ms +/- 2.6% significant
darkroom:1.22x as fast  3387.3ms +/- 4.0%
2783.7ms +/- 3.0% significant
desaturate:  1.21x as fast  3723.8ms +/- 3.6%
3077.4ms +/- 6.6% significant

  json:  1.31x as fast  1359.7ms +/- 3.4%
1041.7ms +/- 3.7% significant
parse-financial: 1.35x as fast   783.6ms +/- 4.7%
578.6ms +/- 2.9% significant
stringify-tinderbox: 1.24x as fast   576.1ms +/- 8.1%
463.1ms +/- 5.7% significant

  stanford:  1.25x as fast  3848.0ms +/- 2.6%
3090.3ms +/- 4.9% significant
crypto-aes:  1.26x as fast   720.0ms +/- 6.8%
569.5ms +/- 6.6% significant
crypto-ccm:  1.21x as fast   610.5ms +/- 8.6%
503.5ms +/- 5.2% significant
crypto-pbkdf2:   1.24x as fast  1876.0ms +/- 4.4%
1507.8ms +/- 6.2% significant
crypto-sha256-iterative: 1.26x as fast   641.5ms +/- 5.5%
509.5ms +/- 5.0% significant

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Re: Firestarter

[Daniel Hollocher]

On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Jim Kielman  wrote:
> There is a tool for setting firewall rules installed by default called
> ufw, for those that need a graphical tool to set firewall rules, it's
> just as easy to install gufw, as it is to install firestarter.
>
> The biggest problem is one of education, most users assume that
> firestarter is the the firewall, when in fact it is iptables/netfilter.
>
>
> I'm still learning how to use mailing lists, I created a message last
> night that only got sent to the the person I replied to, so here goes again.
>
> I'm one of the moderators on the forum, and we are constantly trying to
> educate the membership of the dangers of running applications as root.
> Firestarter needs to be run as root.
>
> This wouldn't be a problem if users ran the program the way it is
> supposed to be run, start it, set the firewall rules, then shut it down.
> Many users start it up when they log in, and leave it run all day,as it
> monitors the firewall and shows blocked connection. Many also assume
> that if firestarter is shutdown they no longer are protected by a firewall.
>
> With the included tool for setting the firewall all you have to do is
> enable the default rule set and it's done. The default rule set blocks
> almost everything,  and in Windows terms makes the users system seemed
> to be stealthed. All you need is one simple command:
>
> sudo ufw enable
>
> And your done. If the defult rules aren't good enough, you can use gufw
> for adding additional rules.
>

Would you mind updating the community wiki [1] to include this
information?  That way, web searching users and IRC users can also be
informed of such guidelines.  I'm envisioning an additional section in
the beginning that would allow one to use a firewall, yet stay
ignorant of what a firewall is or how it works.  Something like:

QUICK GUIDE
Most users don't need a firewall because linux based systems have
features blah blah blah.  But, in situations A, B, C, a firewall can
enhance security by making the computer invisible on the network.

To setup:
   sudo apt-get install ufw
   sudo ufw enable

INTRODUCTION


And then maybe put the root issue with firestarter in the bottom
section.  Thanks!

[1] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Firewall

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Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu

[Daniel Hollocher]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Darren Albers  wrote:
> For what it is worth add me to the list of people happy with
> PulseAudio.   In my opinion we are better off fixing the remaining
> issues than ripping it out and replacing it with something else.

And on that note, I have performed a trivial update of allegro4.2.
You can find the package here:
https://launchpad.net/~chogydan/+archive/gnome-session/
I tested with opensonic and open-invaders.  Gets the sound working.
Someone should probably do a more formal update request with
ubuntu/debian.

Regarding this discussion, I think it would make sense that in the
future when someone else complains about pulseaudio being in Ubuntu,
we should ask for bug reports.

Dan

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Re: Ubuntu needs a new development model

[Daniel Hollocher]

I'm pretty sure that getdeb.net and the ppa's on launchpad satisfy
most cravings for rolling releases.

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Re: lucid and 2.6.33?

[Daniel Hollocher]

Hey Patrick,
I'm only suggesting this because I know about it:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/MainlineBuilds and
http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline/

At least you may avoid having to compile the kernel yourself.

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Re: Removing Ubuntu releases, just Ubuntu (Aitor Pazos)

[Daniel Hollocher]

Just in case you haven't seen some of the previous conversation on
this topic, Mark Shuttleworth has talked about rolling releases verse
time based releases here:
http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/tag/cadence
He makes some compelling arguments for time based releases.

> There should be a prioritization for "FIX AVAILABLE" whereby SOMEHOW
> these get tested.  Someone needs to drop them into an additional
> "Testing" repository (this is more volatile than -proposed), and alert
> upstream that there's such a patch.  I'm talking about "it compiled,
> it ran on my workstation, I'm throwing it in -testing," not "Well it
> compiles and runs, we've vetted it, tested it somewhat, we're putting
> it in -proposed for wider developer testing."  Apparently there's no
> such resources to do some pretty basic work.

You should probably talk to the upstreams that you think could benefit
from this, and ask what they think.  Your idea won't matter a whole
lot if the upstreams aren't paying attention.

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Re: Install Wizard 'Looks Too Complicated'

[Daniel Hollocher]

I think the issue is that you need to have the user enter the password
anyway, for the users sake.  The user needs to know and remember the
password, which is why the installer asks twice already.

The original idea was to use the windows password so the user doesn't
need to be asked during install.  Not everyone can use such a feature,
as not everyone has a non-compromised Windows installation with a good
password that they also remember.  The few that do can just re-enter
the password since everyone needs to be able to remember and enter the
password.  Any sort of password automation would simplify the
situation for a few people at the expense of making it more
complicated for the rest of us.  The level of encryption doesn't seem
to matter.

I think the main issue is that the interface needs to help the user
focus on the task at hand.  I think you could combine a few screens to
make it simpler.  Combining all the screens goes too far IMHO.

 - proposal -
Screen 1: Language selection

Screen 2: Welcome
Have an overview of the install process here, to communicate it to
those who haven't done it before.
Keyboard/etc should be guessed from the language selection.  Have
buttons on the side to change anything that was guessed.

Screen 3: Partitioning  (Step one according to the welcome screen)
I really think this should be separate, but that is just because it scares me.

Screen 4: Information (Step two)
Any other information needed should be gathered in a combined screen,
so passwords and time information.

Screen 5: Confirmation and advanced options.
As it is already.


Ideally screen 1 would be eliminated from ubiquity and the boot
selection used.  Anything in screen 4 not needed to install should be
defered.

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Re: How to include a part of Wine ... why include wine at all?

[Daniel Hollocher]

Hey, good response.
It looks like this problem will be fixed in the future, and I see the irony
of to whom I originally responded to.

Dan



On Feb 13, 2008 8:05 PM, Onno Benschop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 14/02/08 09:32, Daniel Hollocher wrote:
> > Again, wine in ubuntu is unsupported and outdated.
> Perhaps some prior research would be appropriate before you shoot from
> the hip:
>
>https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-January/000720.html
>
>
> --
> Onno Benschop
>
> Connected via Optus B3 at S31°54'06" - E115°50'39" (Yokine, WA)
> --
> ()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno..
> |>>?..EBCDIC for Onno..
> --- -. -. ---   ..Morse for Onno..
>
> ITmaze   -   ABN: 56 178 057 063   -  ph: 04 1219    -
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>


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Re: How to include a part of Wine ... why include wine at all?

[Daniel Hollocher]

Though it is my personal judgment that the two who have responded so far
don't truely know the answer to my question, for the sake of argument, I
will refute what has thus been presented.

>From Jan:
"Not every user will be able to find those 3rd-party repositories."
Well, most people coming from windows will be able to find those
repositories.  The winehq website presents very clear directions on how to
set them up, and it involves cutting and pasting two commands.  This is a
matter of opinion, and is also besides the point, since you can just
download the latest version.  You don't need the repos.

"Maybe some companies want to say that their software works with "WINE in
Ubuntu X.YZ", which can't be guaranteed with "random" upstream versions."
If companies are relying on a specific release of wine, why include only
one?  Why not include all of them, like the winehq website does here:
http://wine.budgetdedicated.com/archive/index.html


>From Onno:
"You could make the above argument for all available software anywhere ie:
Why ship a kernel when you can download it from kernel.org"
kernel.org did not seem to have a .deb package built specifically for Ubuntu
Gutsy, which is what I'm running.

"Why ship Firefox and Thunderbird when you can get them from
mozilla.com"
Again, no packages.

> Your understanding "that much of ubuntu software is upgraded on a 6
> month basis to ensure compatibility" does not ring true to me. If you
> understood it, that is, really understood it, then you would know that
> wine isn't an island. It relates to all the software around it, the
> kernel, the windowing system, the hardware abstraction code, etc.
> "Ensuring Compatibility" isn't just wine, its the whole lot.

So, are you trying to say that the version of wine in the ubuntu repos is
more compatible than the one in the winehq repos?  Keep in mind, that the
winehq version is built specifically for Ubuntu Gutsy (in my case).
Additionally, keep in mind, that the version in the ubuntu repos is probably
not supported by anyone.  I expect that the wine community supports only the
latest version, and the ubuntu community diverts any wine related questions
to the wine community.

> Now long-time Ubuntu users know that this process isn't 100%, that is,
> unexpected things still happen, incompatibilities still creep in and
> bugs still get unearthed, but at least you're working within a known
> problem scope, that is, the goal-posts move every six months, but they
> don't move every minute, which is what you're proposing.

With wine, the situation is different.  In terms of getting apps to run on
wine, wine IS an island.  I don't know of any ubuntu specific support for
wine, the only support is on the wine website.  And that website does not
support the package that is in the Ubuntu repos.  So, in terms of getting
things to work on wine, those six month goal posts don't apply.

Again, wine in ubuntu is unsupported and outdated.  No, you did not answer
my question.  Why is it included when a better version is so readily
available.  OR, why not include the updated version in gutsy-backports?  Or
even proposed?

Dan
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Re: How to include a part of Wine ... why include wine at all?

[Daniel Hollocher]

I have a different but related question:  why is a wine package included in
the Ubuntu repositories at all?

Its 5 months old, and the winehq website not only has a package built
specifically for ubuntu gutsy/whatever, but they have their own repository
that will allow your install of wine to be automatically updated.

I understand that much of ubuntu software is upgraded on a 6 month basis to
ensure compatibility, but why include wine in that process when the wine
devs are probably doing a better job?

Dan

PS - I'm very curious to the response, since I feel that similar criticisms
can be leveled at other packages in the ubuntu repos.


On Feb 11, 2008 7:49 PM, Scott Ritchie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Wine uses the Gecko rendering engine for functionality in its fake
> internet explorer, which is needed by a lot of applications.  Wine can't
> just use the system Gecko that Firefox does, however - it needs to use
> the Windows version of Gecko.
>
> This presents a problem, since windows Gecko can't compile on Linux and
> Wine can't bundle it upstream.
>
> Currently, Wine gets the Gecko engine the first time it needs to be used
> by downloading it over the internet.  This has all sorts of problems;
> sometimes the download fails, sometimes the user doesn't have internet,
> different users have to download it multiple times since it isn't
> system-wide, and the user gets burden with all this confusion.
>
>
> Wine does, however, support simply using a local copy of the gecko
> engine rather than downloading it.  All we have to do is put it in a
> specific place on the filesystem.
>
> Ideally, Windows Gecko would be buildable under the tools we already
> have in Ubuntu (Mingw), then we could make a wine-gecko package fairly
> easily that just put gecko in its place.  Unfortunately, that's not the
> case today: the Gecko that Wine needs has to be built with Visual Studio.
>
>
> So, what's the best way to do this?  Put the file that Wine downloads
> anyway into a wine-gecko package, and put that on the local filesystem?
>  What do we do about LGPL compliance and providing source code?
>
> I've opened a bug to track integration:
> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/wine/+bug/191132
>
> Thanks,
> Scott Ritchie
>
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Re: metashell - User Friendly Shell

[Daniel Hollocher]

Hello all,
I had an idea for metashell this morning, that takes into account some of
the dialog on this list.  So, to restate, right now, metashell offers users
the value of MIME-types and application associations, whatever, via the same
interface that see or open uses.  You just feed in the file name, and it
tries to open the file with the correct application.
I personally felt a little lackluster toward that, because it doesn't teach
you anything.

My inspiration this morning was to offer the same value of MIME-types and
application associations through a tab completion like interface.  Right now
(in my shell anyway), tab completion offers suggestions on how to complete
the end of your command, or, if there is only one natural choice, it fills
in what it can.  You could have shift+tab completion for the front of your
command.

So, a user, with tab completion, can locate a file, and get its name typed
into the terminal.  Then, the user can hit shift+tab, and then a menu shows
up offering various commands that make sense for that file.  If its a
.tar.gz file, maybe F1 will insert tar xvzf into the front of the line.  Or,
you could hit F5, and it opens up a more general menu, for moving or copying
files, or even ftp, whatever.  (please use your imagination to picture an
appropriate console ui)  Whatever selection you make, it inserts the correct
command into the terminal.

This would actually match the current behavior of a gnome-desktop or windows
user.  You find files, and then figure out what you want to do with the
file.  You use a file browser, and then double clicking, right-clicking,
drag and drop, whatever.

If making the CLI easier to learn is an interesting topic to you, then I
would like to shamelessly plug my project at https://launchpad.net/climl .
I call it climl for short, standing for Command Line Markup Language, or
Command Line Buddy as the long name.

This project offers a new way to document the CLI.  Right now, most
documentation is in the form of sonnets and novels written by programmers
(and... at MY college, you could get out of your single writing class
requirement by taking a class in software design).  With climl, you would
instead document a task with an html like format.  GUIs are then generated
from that documentation which can perform said CLI tasks, and in plain view
of/for the user.  Two windows are opened, one with buttons that can execute
commands, and another with the default shell running.  Pressing a button
just sends a text string over to the shell.  In a sense, you could criticize
the project for being an over-glorified copy-and-paster.

So, with one document, you get documentation of the task, a GUI for the
task, and a tutorial for the task regarding how to perform it on the command
line.

Thanks for listening, bye.

Dan



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Request for inclusion into Ubuntu

[Daniel Hollocher]

Hello mailing list,
I had an idea for ubuntu that I thought would be cool.  I managed to start
coding the idea on my own, and have posted the code here:
https://launchpad.net/climl

My question is this: How do I actually incorporate my work into ubuntu?

Its one python script that starts a terminal based upon another input file.
So one problem for me is getting the text input files associated with the
python script.  It seems ubuntu ignores file extensions.

The main point of the question relates to how to actually get it into the
next release of ubuntu, package wise and politically.

If this list is not the right place to ask such questions, please point me
in the right direction.

Thanks,
Dan

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Re: metashell - User Friendly Shell

[Daniel Hollocher]

Hello all,
I had an idea for metashell this morning, that takes into account some of
the dialog on this list.  So, to restate, right now, metashell offers users
the value of MIME-types and application associations, whatever, via the same
interface that see or open uses.  You just feed in the file name, and it
tries to open the file with the correct application.
I personally felt a little lackluster toward that, because it doesn't teach
you anything.

My inspiration this morning was to offer the same value of MIME-types and
application associations through a tab completion like interface.  Right now
(in my shell anyway), tab completion offers suggestions on how to complete
the end of your command, or, if there is only one natural choice, it fills
in what it can.  You could have shift+tab completion for the front of your
command.

So, a user, with tab completion, can locate a file, and get its name typed
into the terminal.  Then, the user can hit shift+tab, and then a menu shows
up offering various commands that make sense for that file.  If its a
.tar.gz file, maybe F1 will insert tar xvzf into the front of the line.  Or,
you could hit F5, and it opens up a more general menu, for moving or copying
files, or even ftp, whatever.  (please use your imagination to picture an
appropriate console ui)  Whatever selection you make, it inserts the correct
command into the terminal.

This would actually match the current behavior of a gnome-desktop or windows
user.  You find files, and then figure out what you want to do with the
file.  You use a file browser, and then double clicking, right-clicking,
drag and drop, whatever.

If making the CLI easier to learn is an interesting topic to you, then I
would like to shamelessly plug my project at https://launchpad.net/climl .
I call it climl for short, standing for Command Line Markup Language, or
Command Line Buddy as the long name.

This project offers a new way to document the CLI.  Right now, most
documentation is in the form of sonnets and novels written by programmers
(and... at MY college, you could get out of your single writing class
requirement by taking a class in software design).  With climl, you would
instead document a task with an html like format.  GUIs are then generated
from that documentation which can perform said CLI tasks, and in plain view
of/for the user.  Two windows are opened, one with buttons that can execute
commands, and another with the default shell running.  Pressing a button
just sends a text string over to the shell.  In a sense, you could criticize
the project for being an over-glorified copy-and-paster.

So, with one document, you get documentation of the task, a GUI for the
task, and a tutorial for the task regarding how to perform it on the command
line.

Thanks for listening, bye.

Dan



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Re: Request for inclusion into Ubuntu

[Daniel Hollocher]

yes! thankyou, thats perfect



> On Jan 22, 2008 11:18 AM, Daniel Holbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > Am Montag, den 21.01.2008, 09:16 -0500 schrieb Daniel Hollocher:
> > > My question is this: How do I actually incorporate my work into
> > > ubuntu?
> >
> > Check out http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages
> >
> > Have a nice day,
> >  Daniel
> >
> >
>


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Request for inclusion into Ubuntu

[Daniel Hollocher]

Hello mailing list,
I had an idea for ubuntu that I thought would be cool.  I managed to start
coding the idea on my own, and have posted the code here:
https://launchpad.net/climl

My question is this: How do I actually incorporate my work into ubuntu?

Its one python script that starts a terminal based upon another input file.
So one problem for me is getting the text input files associated with the
python script.  It seems ubuntu ignores file extensions.

The main point of the question relates to how to actually get it into the
next release of ubuntu, package wise and politically.

If this list is not the right place to ask such questions, please point me
in the right direction.

Thanks,
Dan

PS - this email was sent twice.  The first was mistakenly sent with an
unregistered email address.  Hopefully, this one will pass the
automoderation.

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