Congrats on 11.04
Just a quick congrats on the 11.04 release. I was previously running Fedora and openSUSE because I was angry with the previous state of Ubuntu. Yet the 11.04 release has made me return. Well done to all the developers and all others involved to make such an awesome release possible. Cheers and regards. -- PHOTO RESOLUTIONS - Photo - Graphic - Web C and L Jones - Proprietors ABN: 98 317 740 240 WWW: http://photoresolutions.freehostia.com @: chrisjo...@comcen.com.au or photoresoluti...@comcen.com.au cjlinux...@gmail.com Command lines and Linux terminals are my comfort zone! OS: Ubuntu 11.04 System: Linux 2.6.38 x86_64 Desktop: Unity OS: Windows XP System: x86 Desktop: Professional SP3 OS: FreeBSD 7.3 System: 7.3-RELEASE-p3 i386 Server: WebUI+putty -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Congrats on 11.04
By contrast, I am struggling to get rid of this horrible Unity thing and get Gnome Shell. Ubuntu is pulling a Microsoft by using its clout to push a product and kill another; they can make Unity default, but they've actively removed Gnome Shell to the tune of ...well the PPAs all say THIS CAN BREAK YOUR SYSTEM!!! Scariness. So the lesson here is that rather than see Ubuntu users go to Gnome Shell, they're making them leave, which is higher impedence and so the number of users who will migrate off Ubuntu is a subset of those who would instal Gnome Shell. Another subset is people like me who now have 80% of the desktop environment coming out of a PPA. The Gnome developers are also upset at Canonical. No idea why. On Apr 29, 2011 9:01 PM, Chris Jones chrisjo...@comcen.com.au wrote: Just a quick congrats on the 11.04 release. I was previously running Fedora and openSUSE because I was angry with the previous state of Ubuntu. Yet the 11.04 release has made me return. Well done to all the developers and all others involved to make such an awesome release possible. Cheers and regards. -- PHOTO RESOLUTIONS - Photo - Graphic - Web C and L Jones - Proprietors ABN: 98 317 740 240 WWW: http://photoresolutions.freehostia.com @: chrisjo...@comcen.com.au or photoresoluti...@comcen.com.au cjlinux...@gmail.com Command lines and Linux terminals are my comfort zone! OS: Ubuntu 11.04 System: Linux 2.6.38 x86_64 Desktop: Unity OS: Windows XP System: x86 Desktop: Professional SP3 OS: FreeBSD 7.3 System: 7.3-RELEASE-p3 i386 Server: WebUI+putty -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Congrats on 11.04
On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 21:11 -0400, John Moser wrote: The Gnome developers are also upset at Canonical. No idea why. It's because Canonical only ate their ice cream cone and wouldn't eat their ice cream. I remember when Gnome developers* built a rocket and visited the moon, brought back a whole ton of cheese. I tell you one thing that'll stop people using Unity... if it doesn't actually work. Hardware issues are a lot more pressing that design issues, especially now that the design is much more demanding on the hardware. Also I don't like that I can't write anything in python that looks like Unity, I have to write it all in C and talk directly to OpenGL, which is messy. If I tried to use Gnome3 then I'd end up having to write in javascript, which I hate for no apparent reason. Oh woe! Won't someone let me write cool stuff in python? Yours with hugs and kisses, Martin Owens * That ever fictitious collective aggregate. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Congrats on 11.04
On 04/29/11 22:33, Martin Owens wrote: On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 21:11 -0400, John Moser wrote: The Gnome developers are also upset at Canonical. No idea why. It's because Canonical only ate their ice cream cone and wouldn't eat their ice cream. I remember when Gnome developers* built a rocket and visited the moon, brought back a whole ton of cheese. I tell you one thing that'll stop people using Unity... if it doesn't actually work. Hardware issues are a lot more pressing that design issues, especially now that the design is much more demanding on the hardware. Maybe, although there's a lot of press going on about this. People have been critical about Ubuntu doing things they didn't like before, though, and eventually they just eat it. Significantly this time, I've found several issues that make me worry that Ubuntu might get away with squashing Gnome-shell: - I've played with both back and forth now for a while, and Gnome-Shell is clearly better; people on-line are telling me the same thing. Still, both are leaving me confused as to where a lot of settings went (mostly, the appearance-related theming stuff; is everything now going to be dark colors and blues like some cheap sci-fi flick?), and both have a learning curve. Unity seems to have no distinction between running applications and applications you can run, which ... honestly just makes me want to find the smart phone company that the Ubuntu Developers are working for now and burn it down with them in it. Abstracting away the concept of whether an application is already running or not is horrible. - Installing Gnome3 from the PPA really does completely hose the system; after that, Unity and Gnome-classic break, only Gnome-shell works, and Gnome-shell doesn't work with my ATi card (it skews the contents of windows diagonally, ad uselessness). Imagine that, I ignored the warnings and something bad happened. Like I said, Ubuntu is Microsofting gnome-shell. They're using their market clout to squash a product that's better than theirs. I'm waiting to see Canonical try to absorb the GNOME team. Also I don't like that I can't write anything in python that looks like Unity, I have to write it all in C and talk directly to OpenGL, which is messy. If I tried to use Gnome3 then I'd end up having to write in javascript, which I hate for no apparent reason. Oh woe! Won't someone let me write cool stuff in python? Yours with hugs and kisses, Martin Owens * That ever fictitious collective aggregate. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Congrats on 11.04
On Friday, April 29, 2011 10:33:20 PM Martin Owens wrote: Oh woe! Won't someone let me write cool stuff in python? Yes. python-kde4 and python-qt4 would love to let you do that. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Congrats on 11.04
On Friday, April 29, 2011 10:42:50 PM John Moser wrote: - Installing Gnome3 from the PPA really does completely hose the system; after that, Unity and Gnome-classic break, only Gnome-shell works, and Gnome-shell doesn't work with my ATi card (it skews the contents of windows diagonally, ad uselessness). Imagine that, I ignored the warnings and something bad happened. Like I said, Ubuntu is Microsofting gnome-shell. They're using their market clout to squash a product that's better than theirs. I'm waiting to see Canonical try to absorb the GNOME team. I wouldn't read too much into this. Due to the timing of the Gnome 3.0 release it really didn't (from a purely technical point of view) make sense to update everything to 3.0, so what you need for Ubuntu 11.04 and Gnome 3.0 are out of sync. Several of the first uploads today when Oneiric opened were 3.0 versions of Gnome things. I expect you'll find Gnome Shell working much better in 11.10 than it does in 11.04 as the timing is much better. Speaking as someone who uses neither, I think there's no news here, just the timing didn't work out very well and the Ubuntu desktop developers quite reasonably focused on making the default system they were shipping work well for the release. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Congrats on 11.04
My system keeps halting. I guess i completely forgot that i did a PPA upgrade. now it all makes sense. Thanks!! Deric Stowell Technology Consultant a href=http://sandyeggoboy.net/ My profiles: [image: Facebook] http://facebook.com/Deric.Stowell[image: Google] http://google.com/dericnsd[image: WordPress]http://sandyeggoboy.net/[image: Twitter] http://twitter.com/sandyeggoboy Signature powered by WiseStamp http://www.wisestamp.com/email-install On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 7:42 PM, John Moser john.r.mo...@gmail.com wrote: On 04/29/11 22:33, Martin Owens wrote: On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 21:11 -0400, John Moser wrote: The Gnome developers are also upset at Canonical. No idea why. It's because Canonical only ate their ice cream cone and wouldn't eat their ice cream. I remember when Gnome developers* built a rocket and visited the moon, brought back a whole ton of cheese. I tell you one thing that'll stop people using Unity... if it doesn't actually work. Hardware issues are a lot more pressing that design issues, especially now that the design is much more demanding on the hardware. Maybe, although there's a lot of press going on about this. People have been critical about Ubuntu doing things they didn't like before, though, and eventually they just eat it. Significantly this time, I've found several issues that make me worry that Ubuntu might get away with squashing Gnome-shell: - I've played with both back and forth now for a while, and Gnome-Shell is clearly better; people on-line are telling me the same thing. Still, both are leaving me confused as to where a lot of settings went (mostly, the appearance-related theming stuff; is everything now going to be dark colors and blues like some cheap sci-fi flick?), and both have a learning curve. Unity seems to have no distinction between running applications and applications you can run, which ... honestly just makes me want to find the smart phone company that the Ubuntu Developers are working for now and burn it down with them in it. Abstracting away the concept of whether an application is already running or not is horrible. - Installing Gnome3 from the PPA really does completely hose the system; after that, Unity and Gnome-classic break, only Gnome-shell works, and Gnome-shell doesn't work with my ATi card (it skews the contents of windows diagonally, ad uselessness). Imagine that, I ignored the warnings and something bad happened. Like I said, Ubuntu is Microsofting gnome-shell. They're using their market clout to squash a product that's better than theirs. I'm waiting to see Canonical try to absorb the GNOME team. Also I don't like that I can't write anything in python that looks like Unity, I have to write it all in C and talk directly to OpenGL, which is messy. If I tried to use Gnome3 then I'd end up having to write in javascript, which I hate for no apparent reason. Oh woe! Won't someone let me write cool stuff in python? Yours with hugs and kisses, Martin Owens * That ever fictitious collective aggregate. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Congrats on 11.04
On 04/29/11 23:11, Deric Stowell wrote: My system keeps halting. I guess i completely forgot that i did a PPA upgrade. now it all makes sense. Yeah, Ubuntu has a habit of playing the same market game as everyone else (ship an incomplete i.e. broken product, release patches); but same rules apply regardless: first question is what did you do, and after that you can blame the product for being crap. Thanks!! Deric Stowell Technology Consultant a href=http://sandyeggoboy.net http://sandyeggoboy.net// My profiles: Facebook http://facebook.com/Deric.StowellGoogle http://google.com/dericnsdWordPress http://sandyeggoboy.net/Twitter http://twitter.com/sandyeggoboy Signature powered by WiseStamp http://www.wisestamp.com/email-install On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 7:42 PM, John Moser john.r.mo...@gmail.com mailto:john.r.mo...@gmail.com wrote: On 04/29/11 22:33, Martin Owens wrote: On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 21:11 -0400, John Moser wrote: The Gnome developers are also upset at Canonical. No idea why. It's because Canonical only ate their ice cream cone and wouldn't eat their ice cream. I remember when Gnome developers* built a rocket and visited the moon, brought back a whole ton of cheese. I tell you one thing that'll stop people using Unity... if it doesn't actually work. Hardware issues are a lot more pressing that design issues, especially now that the design is much more demanding on the hardware. Maybe, although there's a lot of press going on about this. People have been critical about Ubuntu doing things they didn't like before, though, and eventually they just eat it. Significantly this time, I've found several issues that make me worry that Ubuntu might get away with squashing Gnome-shell: - I've played with both back and forth now for a while, and Gnome-Shell is clearly better; people on-line are telling me the same thing. Still, both are leaving me confused as to where a lot of settings went (mostly, the appearance-related theming stuff; is everything now going to be dark colors and blues like some cheap sci-fi flick?), and both have a learning curve. Unity seems to have no distinction between running applications and applications you can run, which ... honestly just makes me want to find the smart phone company that the Ubuntu Developers are working for now and burn it down with them in it. Abstracting away the concept of whether an application is already running or not is horrible. - Installing Gnome3 from the PPA really does completely hose the system; after that, Unity and Gnome-classic break, only Gnome-shell works, and Gnome-shell doesn't work with my ATi card (it skews the contents of windows diagonally, ad uselessness). Imagine that, I ignored the warnings and something bad happened. Like I said, Ubuntu is Microsofting gnome-shell. They're using their market clout to squash a product that's better than theirs. I'm waiting to see Canonical try to absorb the GNOME team. Also I don't like that I can't write anything in python that looks like Unity, I have to write it all in C and talk directly to OpenGL, which is messy. If I tried to use Gnome3 then I'd end up having to write in javascript, which I hate for no apparent reason. Oh woe! Won't someone let me write cool stuff in python? Yours with hugs and kisses, Martin Owens * That ever fictitious collective aggregate. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com mailto:Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Congrats on 11.04
On Saturday 30 April 2011 08:47 AM, John Moser wrote: On 04/29/11 23:11, Deric Stowell wrote: My system keeps halting. I guess i completely forgot that i did a PPA upgrade. now it all makes sense. Yeah, Ubuntu has a habit of playing the same market game as everyone else (ship an incomplete i.e. broken product, release patches); but same rules apply regardless: first question is what did you do, and after that you can blame the product for being crap. FYI the full GNOME3 stack is in the PPA. I've been using it a lot, and have also helped other users with problems related to it. Its very much stable, and my system never halted. Probably if you elaborated on your problems rather than pointlessly bashed away at Canonical, I'd have helped you. All I can do now is to point you out to [1]. Speaking of the GNOME/Canonical split over GNOME Shell, it was because Canonical had envisaged a proper vision for Ubuntu, and GNOME Shell was something which was just the way Canonical *didn't* want Ubuntu to become. Hence the split. From many experiences with my family members, I've found out that casual Windows users and other non-techy users highly prefer Unity. Its easy to use, faster, and doesn't come in the way. Such users are confused by the look of GNOME Shell (My lappy was running Fedora when my sister was using it). Ubuntu aims at non-techy former Windows and Mac users. Would GNOME Shell suit such a scenario? Probably not. If you want to use GNOME Shell on Ubuntu, then I'd recommend you to 1) use the PPA or 2) wait until Ubuntu 11.10 comes out, then GNOME3 will be officially supported to run on Ubuntu. Why GNOME3 didn't make it to 11.04 is a different story. There are a handful of Ubuntu Desktop developers who had to focus on Unity work. It would be difficult for Unity to be made on then-unstable GNOME3 libraries and it would have been equally difficult for Desktop developers to focus on both unity and GNOME3. Hence the decision was made, to put up GNOME3 packages in a PPA for testers and ship Unity on top of GNOME2. The GNOME3 transitions were postponed to 11.10, when all GNOME3 packages would be in the official repos and Unity will also run on GNOME3. Bilal Akhtar [1] http://ubunturocking.wordpress.com/2011/04/13/gnome3-on-ubuntu-using-the-ppa/ Thanks!! Deric Stowell Technology Consultant a href=http://sandyeggoboy.net http://sandyeggoboy.net// My profiles: Facebook http://facebook.com/Deric.StowellGoogle http://google.com/dericnsdWordPress http://sandyeggoboy.net/Twitter http://twitter.com/sandyeggoboy Signature powered by WiseStamp http://www.wisestamp.com/email-install On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 7:42 PM, John Moser john.r.mo...@gmail.com mailto:john.r.mo...@gmail.com wrote: On 04/29/11 22:33, Martin Owens wrote: On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 21:11 -0400, John Moser wrote: The Gnome developers are also upset at Canonical. No idea why. It's because Canonical only ate their ice cream cone and wouldn't eat their ice cream. I remember when Gnome developers* built a rocket and visited the moon, brought back a whole ton of cheese. I tell you one thing that'll stop people using Unity... if it doesn't actually work. Hardware issues are a lot more pressing that design issues, especially now that the design is much more demanding on the hardware. Maybe, although there's a lot of press going on about this. People have been critical about Ubuntu doing things they didn't like before, though, and eventually they just eat it. Significantly this time, I've found several issues that make me worry that Ubuntu might get away with squashing Gnome-shell: - I've played with both back and forth now for a while, and Gnome-Shell is clearly better; people on-line are telling me the same thing. Still, both are leaving me confused as to where a lot of settings went (mostly, the appearance-related theming stuff; is everything now going to be dark colors and blues like some cheap sci-fi flick?), and both have a learning curve. Unity seems to have no distinction between running applications and applications you can run, which ... honestly just makes me want to find the smart phone company that the Ubuntu Developers are working for now and burn it down with them in it. Abstracting away the concept of whether an application is already running or not is horrible. - Installing Gnome3 from the PPA really does completely hose the system; after that, Unity and Gnome-classic break, only Gnome-shell works, and Gnome-shell doesn't work with my ATi card (it skews the contents of windows diagonally, ad uselessness). Imagine that, I ignored the warnings and something bad happened. Like I said, Ubuntu is Microsofting gnome-shell. They're using their market
Re: Congrats on 11.04
On 04/29/11 23:40, Bilal Akhtar wrote: Why GNOME3 didn't make it to 11.04 is a different story. There are a handful of Ubuntu Desktop developers who had to focus on Unity work. It would be difficult for Unity to be made on then-unstable GNOME3 libraries and it would have been equally difficult for Desktop developers to focus on both unity and GNOME3. Hence the decision was made, to put up GNOME3 packages in a PPA for testers and ship Unity on top of GNOME2. The GNOME3 transitions were postponed to 11.10, when all GNOME3 packages would be in the official repos and Unity will also run on GNOME3. Thanks, that actually helps. Slashdot and other media are running with Ubuntu has completely ejected GNOME3 and is splitting from GNOME and all. But all I got from this is shipping an unfinished product to get testing in before it's ready; will fix in next release. By the way, you will continuously be chasing the non-technical users for all time, as each attempt to make well-designed and sensible things easy to understand for people who can't get their brains around an interface that makes logical sense (people have a lot of ideas about how things work that are based on complete and total idiocy and glaring logical disconnects) will just make the stupid people progressively stupider. Interfaces for non-technical people should be non-*technical*; that doesn't mean there isn't a learning curve. You should see what I'm going through right now *learning to ride a bike*, I'm seriously considering classes. It seems to me that gnome-shell was designed for people who tend to group and categorize things, rather than people who just want something to happen by some magic and don't particularly have a high enough level of brain activity to keep track of more than one thing at a time. You know the type, the ones that close the word processor before opening The Internet because once they have 3 or 4 programs running they can't remember what they were doing with them anyway, and have to repeatedly dig through the task bar and figure out what order the tabs are in (rather than remembering where they were a moment ago and reflexively switching around). This is also a developed skill, not an inherent property of human thought; notably, it is a USEFUL skill. I guess the reason Unity takes the smart phone approach of non-differentiation between an application launcher and the application instance (i.e. the button to launch is the button to access the existing window as well; whether the application is running yet or not is not a concern, you do the same thing to get to it) is because people are inherently bad at instantiation. There is no way you can ever grab a copy of a comb; there is only one comb. I suppose someone could find it inobvious that you can run a program multiple times at once, figuring that once you run it it is in use and you can't run it again. ... until they get 3 file browser windows, or multiple windows in their e-mail application, or their Web browser, or whatnot. Then it immediately becomes intuitive that you can run the same program multiple times (even if you really can't, for whatever reason), and that the program and the window are two different things. I'm a strange one, if you end up talking to me. I am inherently against oversimplifying things; but stuff has to be sensible and as simple as reasonably possible. To me there is a balance in everything, and it has to be done right. I dislike both communism and capitalism; I dislike all extreme (liberal/conservative) political views; I wind up taking both sides in most theoretical/philosophical arguments, but pulling towards the center. But I do get irritated by things. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Congrats on 11.04
On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 23:03 -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: Yes. python-kde4 and python-qt4 would love to let you do that. As much as I would love to show up Gnome by writing a qt4 gdm-greeter, it doesn't really work well. Gdm has issues with compositing that I can't quite get my head around. Perhaps I'll try it again some other way, not much experience with qt4 so perhaps I did it wrong in my tests. Martin, -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
